A very weird editorial

January 6th, 2014 at 8:48 am by David Farrar

Today’s Dom Post editorial is very weird. It links the Obama-Key round of golf to the US-NZ thaw in military exercises and that the US is trying to limit China’s influence in the Pacific. It goes on to warn about getting too chummy with the US.

It is one of the more bizarre of recent times. First of all it ignores the fact that Obama is well known for not using golf as a diplomatic tool. Only 5% or so of his games have been with elected officials, half of them with Joe Biden. He played a round of golf with Key, because they get on well and were both in Hawaii. To try and make this all about China is frankly weird and off the planet.

Even worse, they seem to be suggesting that the game of golf was a bad thing, because it might offend China. Jesus Christ. Seriously? I can only presume the normal editorial writer is on holiday, and this one was written by a 17 year old intern.

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98 Responses to “A very weird editorial”

  1. Keeping Stock (9,791 comments) says:

    Actually, I’m wondering if someone from David Cunliffe’s office hacked into the Fairfax editorial system. That seems to be the only explanation for such an attack of sour grapes.

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  2. Manolo (12,644 comments) says:

    No wonder readership of the dreadful DomPost continues to fall.
    The “editorial” is simply ridiculous.

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  3. flipper (3,277 comments) says:

    Thanks for the summary David.

    No need to bother further with that Fairfax crap.
    They seem unaware that the EXCEPTION ( an exception already noted in Washington, DC) of J Key, politician and Prime Minister of a nation smaller than Sydney, playing golf with Obama IS THE NEWS – not they fact that the played golf.

    They (the Fairfax children) have blind spots ….. and need cataract operations as a matter of urgency.

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  4. igm (882 comments) says:

    It is easy to see why advertisers are dropping Fairfax en masse. They have the most left-wing, anti-commerce editorial policy of any socialist rag in the world. It starts with their Green-supporting editor.

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  5. OneTrack (1,986 comments) says:

    The left have really got bent out of shape with Key being friends with the messiah.

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  6. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    No allegation that John Key didn’t pay his own green fees?

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  7. Nostalgia-NZ (4,699 comments) says:

    Paranoia can be fun, but that was a overdose – off to the loony bin the editor goes.

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  8. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    “I can only presume the normal editorial writer is on holiday, and this one was written by a 17 year old intern.”

    That’s funny, especially in light of this comment by Martyn Bradbury:

    I’m waiting for David Farrar to be appointed directly onto the Dominion Post editorial team, rather than just the guest editor role he seems to hold now.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/12/30/espiner-hosking-paul-henry-the-3-broadcasters-of-the-apocalypse/

    This editorial sounds like it’s written by someone like Bradbury.

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  9. Joanne (177 comments) says:

    Well said.

    All these conspiracy theorists emerge and I think FFS it was a golf game with two leaders of two countries who happen to holiday in Hawaii. End of story.

    My first impression of it was Key genuinely likes his son to take him along. Key is very good at relationships.

    How do these people get all these far out conspiracy theories.

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  10. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  11. Longknives (4,051 comments) says:

    What a bizarre editorial! Just goes to confirm what strange little minds the Left have….

    Do all these fruitcakes who want us to sever ties with our historic Allies/Trading partners actually have any fucking idea of how an Economy works?
    (Or are they deliberately trying to collapse our Economy in order to implement the ‘Socialist changes’ the Left so crave?)

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  12. NK (919 comments) says:

    It sounds utterly believable and plausible Yoza. But I doubt it was “out of the blue”.

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  13. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Given the good optics for Key the left had to find some way to try and blunt its obvious electoral plus with an editorial from one of their MSM buddies on how the golf game wasn’t a good idea. As if the Chinese give a toss about Obama golfing with Key.

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  14. Longknives (4,051 comments) says:

    Interestingly the Dominion absolutely fucking gushed over Obama (as did everyone on the left) when he was first Elected, he was seemingly their ‘Messiah’ in 2008-

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/editorials/700396/Editorial-A-man-to-restore-his-nations-lustre

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  15. Joanne (177 comments) says:

    Well Yoza it wasn’t out of the blue. One of the last functions they were at, it may have been Madela’s funeral, Obama suggested next time they were both in Hawaii they play golf. End of story.

    As I said before Key does the relationships very well.

    I hate to disappoint those conspiracy theorists with nothing better to do, but it was just a golf game between two people who are friends. It doesn’t mean we are becoming a state of America.

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  16. Simon (613 comments) says:

    To think 5 yrs ago the moron left and NZ MSM thought that Zero’s shit didn’t stink.

    Not really coping too well it seems.

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  17. flipper (3,277 comments) says:

    The conspiracy conversation at Mandela’s funeral….

    O. Heh, John. This is sad, but it was inevitable.
    K. Sadly, its like taxes.
    O. Yep. Say… are you going to Kauai this year?
    K. Yeah… a bit of sun, sand, and Max will try to wallop me at golf.
    O. Oh, really? Well, we must do a round. I’ll give you a bell.
    K. Great. Look forward to it.

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  18. MH (558 comments) says:

    now poor old Key will have every leader in the free world wanting to have a game of golf with HIM ;) Some will just have to wait and others will just have to be snubbed. No wonder the Chinese have bought a few golf courses in NZ.

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  19. Wayne Mapp (55 comments) says:

    I am sure that over three hours politics and international policy will have been discussed. Which is not to say policy is decided. But I agree that the Dompost editorial is churlish, and in some respects the Herald cartoon is worse. I would seeit is a real diplomatic success that President Obama wants to have a golf game with John Key, but instead the media sees it as something to denigrate.

    I am sure that Tony Abbott would love to have the same opportunity. And China is not going to be concerned, in fact would like to see New Zealand can have a trusted relationship with both sides of Pacific. That surely strengthens the New Zealand position.

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  20. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Yoza @ 9.21

    Again very poor I hope you are not going to continue with this undergraduate sniping right up to the election. Where’s the argument some facts.

    Sorry, no argument , no facts available just vitirol. You’d be much better off getting that useless bastard Hawawira to turn up to work. You support Mana I’d expect a ” worker” like yourself to be hot about him doing nothing.

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  21. flipper (3,277 comments) says:

    Wayne Mapp (39 comments) says:

    January 6th, 2014 at 10:10 am

    *****

    You are too kind to the MSM Wayne.
    And yes. Tony Abbott would have WELCOMED the opportunity. But the Aussie media’s treatment would have been positive. :-)

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  22. dime (8,790 comments) says:

    Sad. Surprised they didn’t mention dot com, pharmac and Hollywood studios.

    Lol @ yoza.

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  23. Jack5 (4,231 comments) says:

    So technology’s not all to blame for the decline of the MSM in subscribers and viewers.

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  24. mikemikemikemike (242 comments) says:

    No weirder than the amount of time you have blogged about it David. If it was only personal and not anything political then why would you take such a keen interest in it by writing at least two posts on it.

    Just because it wasn’t a flashing billboard reminding us how wonderful JK is, doesn’t mean they don’t make some valid points.

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  25. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay
    Yoza is a John Minto wannabe. His version of the perfect government was the socialist regime that briefly governed Spain prior to the Spanish Civil War replete with the fervour of nationalizing the means of production, distribution and exchange like all good socialists hence the textbook Marxist college student reflexive comments.

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  26. Jack5 (4,231 comments) says:

    I’ve just read the reditorial, noting this bit:

    …we should not get too chummy with the US. New Zealand needs China, too.

    What NZ needs is more locally owned newspapers like the Otago Daily Times.

    Much of the rest of the MSM is soft-left, as the graduates of the journalism madrassas move up in organisations with the years, and practical, trained-on-the-job veterans go out to retirement grass. This has shifted the MSM left, and feminised it, too. The minor exception is Dunedin, where the locals who own the Otago Daily Times obviously counter-balance MSM journalists’ drift to the Left.

    Thank God for the Internet!

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  27. Nukuleka (79 comments) says:

    ‘Even worse, they seem to be suggesting that the game of golf was a bad thing, because it might offend China. Jesus Christ.’

    People who choose to use ‘Jesus Christ’ as a swear word do it deliberately in order to be offensive. Why?

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  28. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    “People who choose to use ‘Jesus Christ’ as a swear word do it deliberately in order to be offensive.”

    No they don’t, they use it as an expression of incredulity because that’s what they’ve done for most of their life and never thought twice about it.

    That some people seek to be offended is not their problem.

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  29. OneTrack (1,986 comments) says:

    longknives – “Do all these fruitcakes who want us to sever ties with our historic Allies/Trading partners actually have any fucking idea of how an Economy works?” – No

    “(Or are they deliberately trying to collapse our Economy in order to implement the ‘Socialist changes’ the Left so crave?)” – Yes

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  30. OneTrack (1,986 comments) says:

    “So technology’s not all to blame for the decline of the MSM in subscribers and viewers.”

    It never was.

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  31. tvb (3,950 comments) says:

    NZ trade relationship is with China but our security relationship is with the US. That poses a challenge for NZ but the Sustralua is in the same position and China has important trade relationships with the US as well. Over the last century NZs trade and security relationships has been intertwined first Brotain and more recently the US. Pur policy seemed to be guns for butter.

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  32. OneTrack (1,986 comments) says:

    mike – “If it was only personal and not anything political then why would you take such a keen interest in it by writing at least two posts on it.”

    It’s only interesting (in a train wreck kind of way) because of the hard-lefts reaction. As soon as I saw the first report, I made an immediate supposition on what the left would say. They have exceeded what I came up with.

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  33. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    kia:

    His version of the perfect government was the socialist regime that briefly governed Spain prior to the Spanish Civil War replete with the fervour of nationalizing the means of production, distribution and exchange like all good socialists hence the textbook Marxist college student reflexive comments.

    You don’t have to look to the other side of the world eighty years ago for that.

    It is perhaps time think of policies that would reduce inequality and promote social justice as universal policies that would benefit everyone and present them as such, rather than as targeted at a certain sector.

    Everyone would be better off if all healthcare was free, even doctors visits and prescriptions. Everyone would better off if education at every level was totally free, right down to school camps and materials for practical classes. Everyone would be better off if interest free home loans were offered to all first home buyers (up to a set price in each area). And everyone would be better off if interest free loans were offered to all homeowners to insulate, double glaze, and install a means of heating their home up a set value (around the cost of a upgrading a modest three bedroom home, perhaps).

    Everyone would be better off if there was a universal basic income whether people are in paid work or not, and a universal child allowance. No one need feel guilty or inadequate for receiving help. Nor could anyone complain if everyone got the same entitlements. Though higher earners would pay higher taxes.

    That’s a post last month on New Zealand’s Democratic Socialist Party (Alliance) – Poverty and Inequality – Are We Bored or Burnt Out And What Can Be Done About It?

    That’s far more socialist than present day China.

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  34. Dave_1924 (55 comments) says:

    Mindless, truly mindless. Lets chum up with the Communist regime in Beijing who ruthless supress any of their citizens who question them, strip them of their land and give it to their cronies and who shout down any foreigner who criticises their subjugation of Tibet. And lets drop an old ally.

    The DomPost shuffles slow down a left wing hole and dies it seems. Where does this relentless anti-American thing come form? They are far from perfect that’s for sure but at least we share some core values with them

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  35. alwyn (359 comments) says:

    From the look of it the editorial was written by their cartoonist.
    The cartoon immediately below the editorial, and on the same topic of the golf game, was equally pathetic.

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  36. Don the Kiwi (1,341 comments) says:

    Obama needed to have a chat to John to see how to run an economy – the way he’s stuffed the US, he could learn a lot from Key Maybe he offerd Key a job ;-)

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  37. Ashley Schaeffer (336 comments) says:

    Until the U.S. and China are actually at war with one another, I don’t see why NZ needs to pick sides at all. Let’s be friendly to both and reap the benefits from buddying up with two major world economies. And China isn’t going to give two shits about Obama playing golf with Key. Perhaps Xi Jinping can invite Key over for a game of table tennis.

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  38. burt (7,096 comments) says:

    How about the Dalai Lama, Obama and Key playing golf at Milbrook. It’s just golf right – it couldn’t possibly offend the Chinese !

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  39. KevinH (1,129 comments) says:

    The editorial in the Dom Post was a pathetic piece of biased rubbish, written by a dullard lacking analytical insight. Where is an examination of the positives?. The Dom post is crap.

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  40. Dean Papa (623 comments) says:

    Both leftards and rightards are embarrassing themselves over this. Time for a reality check. The world does not revolve around New Zealand, fantastic a place though it is. Here’s my take on this. Obama, great man that he is, was holidaying in Hawaii, his place of birth. Or is it somewhere in Kenya, I’m not sure? Can you help me, rightards? Anyway, Obama was on holiday. As it happens little Johnny Key also happened to be holidaying in Hawaii, at the EXACT some time as the great one. Well, what’d ya know? Obama obviously knew this. He remembered John Key from wherever it was they’d met before. He was a cool dude, for a white guy. A blokey bloke. A good down to earth bloke, just like Obama. So, Obama, as the leader of the free world, thought to himself. Hey, I should invite John, a fellow leader of his country, to a game of golf, and a little chit chat. Politics to be excluded. Why would Obama do that, you ask? Because, Obama is a nice guy. A good mannered, sophisticated, and polite bloke. High in “social intelligence” to borrow a phrase from a KB clown. Obama was only doing the polite thing. And anyway, the Danish PM was not available. Of course some may ask, why didn’t Obama invite his good mate Jay Z, or Denzil, to play?. Well, probably because they did not happen to be in Hawaii at the time. Although they could have flown in on their private jet, I suppose. But please. Can we ditch this earnest cringeworthy desperate need to read great meaning into the event? Can we ditch this “little ol Nu Zuld” punching above her weight talk? It’s embarrassing. Contrary to what you might think, the rest of the world is not envious of little ol Nu Zuld because Key got an invite to the golf. They hardly care, other than the novelty value. And if they do express some interest, it is far more likely to reflect a patronising attitude than any genuine envy, but a lot of Kiwis do seem unable to spot when they are being patronised as a nation.

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  41. jakejakejake (128 comments) says:

    how dare they not get all moist over John Key playing golf with Obama!!

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  42. flipper (3,277 comments) says:

    Dean Papa (540 comments) says:

    January 6th, 2014 at 1:21 pm

    *************

    It is without regret that I record that you are a pathetic little shit.
    You have no idea of the way the real world works.
    You sit in some sort of socialist, academic tower and talk crap.

    Do you not understand that Obama would know most every detail of Key’s background – and vice versa ????
    Do you not know that …..oh, what is the point.

    You are obviously left from the cast offs from the Trotter, Edwards, Bambury, Campbell (G & J), Watkins, Small, (the list is endless, and a disgrace to NZ’s MSM) mould.

    It may be summer, but take your shorts off Deano, and put on adult trousers, if you are going to comment here.

    Bye, bye.

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  43. wikiriwhis business (3,308 comments) says:

    So I read lately John Key had taken an apology tour to China

    His TPP masters.

    And what a great opportunity to discuss the TPP together at golf.

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  44. Random Punter (54 comments) says:

    Dean Papa: “Why would Obama do that, you ask? Because, Obama is a nice guy.”

    No, because John Key is a nice guy.

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  45. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    On my twitter feed, only one MSM journalist has had the gumption to highlight this crap editorial.

    My take on this is there are so few media outlets in this country, its such a closed shop ,that no one has any balls to come out and say that this was “churlish”(thank you Wayne Mapp) and childish and inaccurate. I assume that this is because they may need a job someday

    Highlighting the Obama staffer misspelling New Zealand on a tweet but failing to mention that he apologised 1 minute later for the spelling mistake is just undergraduate rubbish. More should be expected from this paper but alas its a dumbed down to the point that it will never recover.

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  46. Harriet (4,013 comments) says:

    That Chess player Putin isn’t surprised that they were both seen playing golf! :cool:

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  47. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay (4,880 comments) says:
    January 6th, 2014 at 10:19 am

    Yoza @ 9.21

    Again very poor I hope you are not going to continue with this undergraduate sniping right up to the election. Where’s the argument some facts.

    I just do not think it is plausible that ‘Barak – first black president of the US – Obama’ just happened to to find a spare afternoon to slot in a game of golf with ‘John – not sure if I opposed white-supremacy in South Africa in ’81 – Key’, expecting me to accept that John Key and Barak Obama are on-track to be BFFs is just complete idiocy.

    It is far more plausible that the US – fresh from carrying out industrial scale slaughter in the Middle East; being caught spying on everyone’s electronic communications everywhere, all the time; effectively sabotaging the TPPA by making outrageous demands to favour its corporate base – is deeply concerned with China’s eminently more effective soft diplomacy and far more open trading policy.

    The US is running out of friends, things are getting so desperate their ‘mighty’ President has been relegated to verifying the loyalty of one of it minor imperial handmaidens.

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  48. Manolo (12,644 comments) says:

    It is far more plausible that the US – fresh from carrying out industrial scale slaughter in the Middle East; being caught spying on everyone’s electronic communications everywhere… is deeply concerned with China’s eminently more effective soft diplomacy and far more open trading policy.

    The words of a Labour stooge and rabid socialist, who, like many of his ill-advised colleagues, hates the United States with a passion.

    That hasn’t stopped them from moving there and collect tax-free salaries; comrade Helen Clark being an example of the hypocrisy that pervades the Left.

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  49. Harriet (4,013 comments) says:

    “…..The US is running out of friends, things are getting so desperate their ‘mighty’ President has been relegated to verifying the loyalty of one of it minor imperial handmaidens….”

    Yoza……..it’s the Chicongo Thug who is running out of friends……….and the statistic with the greatest momentum is black americans.

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  50. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,685 comments) says:

    I’m looking forward to the return match at Kauri Cliffs.

    One week before the NZ election.

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  51. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Yoza

    They were on holiday at the same place Obama cannot just rock down to the pub and ask for a knock around

    The rigmarole that Obama has to go through to play a game of golf is unbelievable. Did you not see the 25 secret service agents in the background?

    Playing with JK he knows there wont have to be umpteen security checks and he comes with his own DPS staff

    Anyway why are youse lefties getting your tits in a tangle? Are you scared that the POTUS might be infected with some common sense from JK?

    Not too long ago Obama was the man who was going to change the world what he has done is fuck his country in the short term

    But even lefty POTUS’s are allowed a game of golf , I dear say if Cameron was holidaying down the road he would have got a game as well.

    Bitter wee lefties need to move on. I’m sure Walter Mitty is practicing his golf in Herne Bay as we speak though, just in case.

    The US is not running out of friends , its still a giant world economy, rumours of its recent demise are grossly exaggerated.

    China and the US are tight as brothers – there is that much money tied up there they will be pals for a long time.

    The old story if you owe the bank two million they close you down, if you owe them 200 million they loan you more to trade out of the shit.

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  52. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    I’m looking forward to the return match at Kauri Cliffs.

    One week before the NZ election.

    One uptick is not sufficient Adolf, fuck, can you imagine it. Pure gold

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  53. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    Manolo (11,888 comments) says:
    January 6th, 2014 at 2:37 pm

    The words of a Labour stooge and rabid socialist, who, as many of his colleagues, hate the United States with a passion.

    I was a member of the Mana party, although I do get a little bored with them. I think Labour is almost as appalling as National, if that’s any help. KIA came closest:

    His version of the perfect government was the socialist regime that briefly governed Spain prior to the Spanish Civil War replete with the fervour of nationalizing the means of production, distribution and exchange …

    Although, due to differing cultures, times and geography I do not expect anything exactly replicating the Spanish anarcho-syndicalist experiment being adopted here. The closest we have to that in this region of the world is the resistance fighters of Bougainville Island who successfully saw off the Australian mining fascists and their PNG military proxies.

    What is the point of ‘hating the US’? I know how confusing it is for the simple minded to comprehend, but someone can be opposed to the foreign policies and imperial ambitions of the ruling elite in the US without hating the US itself.

    If you lot spent less time constructing straw-men and more time constructing coherent plausible arguments you might …, nah, stick to the staw-man thing.

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  54. Longknives (4,051 comments) says:

    “I was a member of the Mana party,”

    Well bugger me with a fishfork! None of us saw that coming….

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  55. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,685 comments) says:

    Longknives

    The poor dumb bastards just don’t realise how funny they are.

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  56. J Bloggs (100 comments) says:

    Harriet (3,351 comments) says:
    January 6th, 2014 at 2:22 pm

    That Chess player Putin isn’t surprised that they were both seen playing golf!

    Harriet: I’d rather take on Obama at golf than Putin at his preferred sport (the man is 6th Dan in Judo)

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  57. Fisiani (861 comments) says:

    The media will increasing seek to destroy National because Labour and the Greens are incapable of doing so. The media are of course mostly socialists with a computer and they want election 2014 to be a close contest. They will try to bring down JK and National. Expect such nonsense to worsen and increase in frequency as we go through the year.

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  58. MH (558 comments) says:

    I wonder in 30yrs time Key will remember who with and where he had a game of golf. Has anyone seen Key’s birth certificate?
    Based on curtailing Chinese influence in the Pacific if Obama is seeking to encircle and counter their progress then the King of Tonga should be next then Bainimarama for a game of golf(skins). Island hopping all over again.Semper Fi.

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  59. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    MH
    How old were you in 1981?

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  60. dime (8,790 comments) says:

    “Harriet: I’d rather take on Obama at golf than Putin at his preferred sport (the man is 6th Dan in Judo)”

    i call bullshit. apparently he is also a 6th dan in karate.

    he does practice martial arts but 6th dan in two of em?? thats about as realistic as kim jung sack of craps 50th dan in akido

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  61. J Bloggs (100 comments) says:

    I can’t speak for his expertise in Karate, but the man has published a book on judo technique and been invited to speak at the Kodokan in Japan on Judo – this is not something accorded to diletentes or “honorary” Judoka. Added to that, Judo is very popular in Russia, and is very close in style to Sambo (russian wrestling), and there is significant cross-over between the two sports (Most Russian judoka at national/international level have studied both). According to his Bio on Wiki, he took up both Judo and Sambo back in the 70′s – more than enough time for him to have earned his grade in Judo honestly.

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  62. MH (558 comments) says:

    over 25, when I was 21 I was out defending NZ waters and I helped bring down the USSR and probably Reagan as well. I knew where I was in 81- supporting the democratic right to watch a game of rugby,mores had nothing to do with it. The whole country knew where they were too. In 1939 my father got the right to wear a blazer that had Ist Echelon on it :)

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  63. peterwn (2,941 comments) says:

    Pity Gina Rinehart did not get on the Fairfax board and bang some heads together.

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  64. srylands (302 comments) says:

    “The media are of course mostly socialists.”

    Unless you are a resident at The Standard. There the media are “right wing” apologists for the Tories. Seriously.

    I did ask how they came to that conclusion. I got abused.

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  65. Akaroa (487 comments) says:

    Dominion Post?

    Weird editorial?

    That’s a New Zealand paper isn’t it?

    And from Wellington, no less!

    Say no more!!

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  66. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Dean Papa
    The only people embarrassing themselves on here are you and Yoza and at least he has the excuse of being a committed Trotskyite!

    Obama doesn’t do the “polite thing” as you state. He’s played presidential golf with a tiny handful of important US Senators and Congressmen and only then at the height of major legislative battles over things like passing a budget to avoid debt ceilings – you know stuff that effects global economies. Obama makes room for pollies on his golf cart for calculated reasons only given his penchant for playing almost all of his golf sans politicians.

    So choosing to invite the PM of a country the size of a largish US city is cause for mild eyebrow raising. The explanation is relatively simple – the two men like each other’s company and the more powerful of the two enough to go to all the security protocol rigmarole to make it happen. For our PM to have a relationship that close to the leader of still the world’s largest economy and most powerful military (notwithstanding China’s rising stocks in both areas it still has a long way before it could be considered a similar super power), that can only be good for New Zealand regardless of your political persuasion.

    The left hate Key, all he does and all he stands for. Any success on the world stage is resented and ways must be found to counter his success – hence this churlish and childish editorial and the equally childish response to legitimate criticism to Fairfax’s laziness and political hackery.

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  67. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    * “of” not “to” – getting late here in the US

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  68. Johnboy (13,439 comments) says:

    Wasn’t that long ago that they wouldn’t let a darkie on a golfcourse in the states of course, unless he was bussin the drinks! :)

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  69. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    kiwi in america (2,215 comments) says:
    January 6th, 2014 at 6:09 pm

    Dean Papa
    The only people embarrassing themselves on here are you and Yoza and at least he has the excuse of being a committed Trotskyite!

    I have never read anything by Trotsky, most of the reading I do on the founding socialist ideas comes from Mikhail Bakunin, but as I said, keep constructing those straw-men.

    The left hate Key, all he does and all he stands for.

    The Standard does seem a little obsessed with Key at times, I think he is more of an embarrassment than anything else. He has spent his entire career bowing and scraping to those he accepts as his superiors, so transferring that culture of sycophancy from the corporate environment to the political wasn’t too much of a stretch, genuflecting before the hood ornament atop the planet’s most sophisticated killing machine is just Key doing what he does best.

    Personally, I think those little guys who grovel around the biggest bully in the playground are pitiful. However, this being Kiwiblog, I imagine such behaviour would be cause for admiration – hence Key’s popularity here.

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  70. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    genuflecting before the hood ornament atop the planet’s most sophisticated killing machine is just Key doing what he does best.

    Straight out of a student newspaper. What a load of wank, pathetic.

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  71. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay (4,885 comments) says:
    January 6th, 2014 at 7:14 pm

    Straight out of a student newspaper. What a load of wank, pathetic.

    Come over here and let uncle Yoza wipe those tears away for you, …there we go Paul, all better.

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  72. Johnboy (13,439 comments) says:

    Key’s too late PEB….it’s sold! :)

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Negro-Bougie-Oleo-Car-Mascot-Ornament-193-/151041196014

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  73. Johnboy (13,439 comments) says:

    What really cracked me up is that it’s only 4 inches high! :)

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  74. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    I am sure Paul’s little heart swelled with pride after reading your comments Johnboy, you go girl!

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  75. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Cheers Yoza

    Your attachment to an epically failed political system is truly inspirational but less quotes from the Workers Daily would give you a bit more credibility.

    Communism has failed its fucked, I can’t put it any other way, I can put you in touch with my father in law , he’ll tell you about living under communism for 50 years. It was brilliant, he has the bullet wounds to show for it

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  76. Johnboy (13,439 comments) says:

    It hasn’t failed PEB. It’s alive and well and thriving in Godzone under Russel and Silent. None of us have enough bullet holes yet to make us realise it’s shit! :)

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  77. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    True JB

    There must have been a email sent out to all the lefties today because every where I log in there are lefties wanting carbon taxes and blathering on about global warming.

    Obviously they are trying to scare my kids who get this rammed down their necks at school all year.

    Some one who is reasonably intelligent , actually is pretty sharp just tried to tell me that because, the World bank, The Guardian and Rachel Kyte said climate change is happening I had to believe, he was even a tad scarcastic. and ‘sighed” when I disagreed.

    We have 10 months of this shit to look forward to, lies damn lies and cherry picked data

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  78. Johnboy (13,439 comments) says:

    Jim Salinger has just made the definitive statement today PEB. Did you miss it? :)

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11181770

    Don’t bother contemplating teaching your sprogs the finer details of building an igloo or snow cave! :)

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  79. Johnboy (13,439 comments) says:

    The chemistry of adobe clay will be far more use to them in the future according to Mad Jim! :)

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  80. Johnboy (13,439 comments) says:

    Jeeze…that minus monster is quicker on the trigger than I was in my hunting days!! :)

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  81. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    No I saw it.

    Masterful by him really, most people when they publish a book have to pay for advertising but his useful idiots give him a news article as an ad. Amazing

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  82. Johnboy (13,439 comments) says:

    Perhaps I should write a book on “The tricks of training Sheep” instead of wasting my time here talking to morons? :)

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  83. Scott Chris (5,687 comments) says:

    Jeeze…that minus monster is quicker on the trigger than I was in my hunting days!!

    Yeah, the fucker hit one of my posts 29 times yesterday.

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  84. Johnboy (13,439 comments) says:

    Jeezus Scotty! and I feel hard done by. Gave you a plus to cheer you up mate! :)

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  85. Johnboy (13,439 comments) says:

    Hell 27 to go and I’ll be as big a c*** as you Scotty! :)

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  86. Scott Chris (5,687 comments) says:

    Hell 27 to go and I’ll be as big a c*** as you Scotty!

    Heh, well I gave you a red for being a self-obsessed c*** :)

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  87. itstricky (1,148 comments) says:

    High in “social intelligence” to borrow a phrase from a KB clown.

    And I thought I was the only one…

    What’s John Key’s handicap, by the way?

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  88. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Yoza
    You’re hard left by your own admission – who cares what flavor it is as each communist/socialist variant has been an abject failure.

    The most sophisticated killing machines were at the hands of despots mostly of the left: Stalin (50 million), Mao (45 million), Pol Pot (3 million), Castro (good five figures) and the Kim family dynasty in North Korea (good seven figures). These deaths were of their own people who either wouldn’t bow to the totalitarian dictates of their communist overlords or from the failed economies wrought by communism.

    The vast bulk of who America killed were in wars started by despots (Hitler, Imperial Japan, North Korea/China, North Vietnam, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein). If Hitler had stayed inside Germany, the Japanese in Japan, the Vietcong in N Vietnam, the Chicoms in North Korea and if Hussein had left his neighbours alone and the Taliban had not allowed Al Qaeda to use Afghanistan as a training ground for international terrorism, then deaths administered by US forces would’ve been close to zero. The murdering by the despots of the left carried on regardless of any external provocation of war.

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  89. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    kiwi in america (2,217 comments) says:
    January 7th, 2014 at 4:07 am

    Yoza
    You’re hard left by your own admission – who cares what flavor it is as each communist/socialist variant has been an abject failure.

    Any form of authority that cannot be satisfactorily justified to those over whom it is exercised is illegitimate. The essence of anarchism is that all forms of authority should be challenged and if found wanting, eliminated. I have never defended any of the leaders you describe, although your figures are fanciful, precisely because they were totalitarian in their exercise of power – although, I think Castro could mount a reasonable defence of his more excessive authoritarian impulses as Cuba lives under the constant threat of invasion by the US and has been subject to decades of terrorism at the hands of the CIA and its proxies.

    Your apologies for the carnage and human misery the US has inflicted on the world are also feeble when subjected to mild scrutiny. It was imperial arrogance and an utter contempt for human life that drove the US to carry out the slaughter it did in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Korea and Vietnam were independent entities and should have been left to their internal ructions, partitioning those countries and setting a band of gangsters against the rest of the population is not defending anything. The only reason Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait was because he thought he had a green light from Washington, they happily supported his invasion of Iran so why should they balk at the thought of one of their most favoured clients invading some other despotically ruled little shit hole. Al Qaeda only exists through the support of wealthy Saudis, Bahrainis, Qataris and the like, they are, more or less, proxies in the US war against the population of the Middle East to secure US corporate access to the incredibly valuable oil reserves in the region.

    Not so long ago these ‘terrorists’ were lauded in the Western media as freedom fighters when they were supported by the CIA and attacking Soviet forces in Afghanistan. Most of those involved in the 9/11 terror attack were Saudis – there were no Afghans on any of those planes, the plot was orchestrated from Hamburg in Germany – is the US going to bomb Hamburg to punish them for harbouring terrorists? The US support for the MEK terrorists is just another example of the kind of hypocrisy and memory hole logic that constantly embarrasses apologists for US terror, as Greenwald points out in the article, “When the Bush administration sought to justify its attack on Iraq in 2003 by accusing Saddam Hussein of being a sponsor of “international terrorism”, one of its prime examples was Iraq’s “sheltering” of the MEK.”

    The murdering by the despots of the left carried on regardless of any external provocation of war.

    And the there is Cambodia, a country the monster Kissinger wanted bombed to get ‘Anything that flies on everything that moves’. The US bombing of Cambodia, and remember the US has never been at war with Cambodia, was the direct cause of the rise of the Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot said before the US bombing the Khmer Rouge had maybe 5000 members spread throughout Cambodia – they were a pretty marginal group, by the end of the bombing the Khmer Rouge had 200,000 foot soldiers in the field.

    Bombs Over Cambodia

    The still-incomplete database (it has several “dark” periods) reveals that
    from October 4, 1965, to August 15, 1973, the United States dropped far
    more ordnance on Cambodia than was previously believed: 2,756,941
    tons’ worth, dropped in 230,516 sorties on 113,716 sites. Just over 10 percent
    of this bombing was indiscriminate, with 3,580 of the sites listed as
    having “unknown” targets and another 8,238 sites having no target listed
    at all. The database also shows that the bombing began four years earlier
    than is widely believed — not under Nixon, but under Lyndon Johnson.
    The impact of this bombing, the subject of much debate for the past
    three decades, is now clearer than ever. Civilian casualties in Cambodia
    drove an enraged populace into the arms of an insurgency that
    had enjoyed relatively little support until the bombing began, setting
    in motion the expansion of the Vietnam War deeper into Cambodia, a
    coup d’état in 1970, the rapid rise of the Khmer Rouge, and ultimately
    the Cambodian genocide.

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  90. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Yoza
    You embrace an ideology that, in its most extreme form, has led to the millions of deaths that you blithefully sweep under the carpet.

    You missed my point. I did not deny the deaths caused by American military action but sought to put them in their proper military causation context. Hitler’s invasions in Europe led to the Allied bombings and invasions (that the US played a key role in). Had Hitler been content to rule inside the post WW1 Germanan borders, the European theatre of WW2 and its awful toll of casualties would’ve been averted. Likewise Imperial Japan, had they been content to rule dynastically inside Japan then US inflicted casualties taking back invaded islands and countries and Japanese civilians would’ve been spared. Had the communists not tried to take all of the Korean peninsula, that war would’ve been averted. Hard the Vietcong been happy with the north and left the south alone, that war too would’ve been averted along with all of the collateral damage to Cambodia and Laos and the destabilisation that led to the rise of the Khmer Rouge.

    Had Saddam Hussein stayed in Iraq and left Kuwait, Iran and Israel alone, there would’ve been no Gulf Wars 1 or 2. And finally the invasion of Afghanistan was to root out Al Qaida who the Taliban allowed to train and plot inside Afghanistan to wreak terrorism acts that provoked the US and Allies attack.

    The communists ruling the USSR, Cuba, China and North Korea murdered millions of their own for no other reason than to suppress dissent and due to ruinous economic policies starving millions more. Like all hard left apologists, you ignore these excesses and then try to mitigate them somehow by understating the casualties.

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  91. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    My god you talk bollocks with the fluency of a native speaker.

    Nobody did anything when Japan invaded China and Korea, the US was actually quite supportive of Japan’s expansion at the time, it was only when Japan started dealing to the Western occupation of South East Asia that their crimes became worthy of action. The millions of Japanese civilians maimed or slaughtered during the merciless US bombing of the Japanese mainland were as much victims of the imperial fascist regime running Japan as were those who suffered under Japanese occupation.

    Similarly, the Nazis received generous support from corporate America and it was only when the Nazis became a threat to Western corporate access to the planet’s most valuable oil reserves that the US began to get more concerned about the Nazi threat.

    As for Vietnam and Korea, you really are living in some sort of white supremacist’s fantasy land if you think it is acceptable for the US to invade those counties yet it is unacceptable for people in those countries to rise up in rebellion against the Western proxies imposed on those countries.

    Had Saddam Hussein stayed in Iraq and left Kuwait, Iran and Israel alone, there would’ve been no Gulf Wars 1 or 2.

    Why was it ok for Saddam to invade Iran yet not ok invade Kuwait?

    …finally the invasion of Afghanistan was to root out Al Qaida who the Taliban allowed to train and plot inside Afghanistan to wreak terrorism acts.

    Yet the US didn’t invade Hamburg, from where the terrorists planned the 9/11 attacks, or Saudi Arabia which is the primary source of funding for Al Qaeda and of which most of the terrorists were nationals.

    Like all hard left apologists, you ignore these excesses and then try to mitigate them somehow by understating the casualties.

    Where? I don’t remember ever making any sort of excuses for dictators like Stalin and company, these people were totalitarian monsters and they deserve their place in history’s hall of shame, along side their Western contemporaries. It takes a rigidly racist mindset to only be able to see the crimes committed by those other than the people with whom you most readily identify.

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  92. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Yoza
    If anyone speaks fluent bollocks it’s you. Actually its Orwellian double speak that you speak even more fluently.

    China and Korea were the Japanese version of Alcase Lorraine and the Sudentenland in Europe. The beginning of Japanese expansion. It finally took Czechoslovakia then Poland to trip the European allies into a declaration war against Germany. Japan’s rapid expansion south into smaller weaker countries and of course the attack on Pearl Harbour meant a declaration of war by the US was inevitable but, like France and England, the US was slow to respond to the initial expansions. You bewail the US bombing of Japanese civilians. The answer was very simple for Japan – don’t keep expanding aggressively and don’t punch the world’s nascent super power in the eye. You start wars, you must live with the consequence of when your enemies prosecute the war as aggressively as possible until you surrender. The blame for Japan’s casualties lies squarely at the feet of the regime. The exact same applies for Nazi Germany. The attitude of SOME (actually few) US companies to doing business with the Nazis is irrelevant. Had Hitler kept to the boundaries of Germany, there would have been no Hamburg or Dresden bombing raids that killed so many innocent German civilians. Had Japan restrained its expansionist aggression there would’ve been no fire bombing of Tokyo nor the two nuclear attacks.

    The North Koreans and Chinese were not responding to popular uprisings in South Korea, they outright invaded and wanted the whole peninsula to be communist and the west put a stop to it. Of course communism is so popular in South Korea that the South Koreans are flocking to the North…oh wait. Same in Vietnam. The Vietcong weren’t just responding to an uprising, they provoked an uprising and wanted the whole country under communist rule and were prepared to get it at the point of a gun. There’s no denying the corruption of the various South Vietnamese regimes but one only has to view the actions of the Viet Cong once they assumed complete control of the entire country to know that communist dictatorships only survive with continued ruthless internal suppression. Had the Chicoms and NoKo allies stayed in their sphere of influence the US and other nations would never have killed a soul in that peninsula. The North Koreans were the ones who did the invading. The US and allies came to support the South Koreans. The same pattern was repeated in Vietnam. If the Viet Cong had not completed the destruction of some 7,000 settlements in the South, stayed out of trying to destabilize the regime in the south and kept to the north, there would’ve been little motivation for the US to send any troops and kill all the civilians they killed in the process of prosecuting the war.

    It was not OK for Iraq to invade Iran and I never intimated that it was. Hussein’s regional aggression and attempts to expand and enlarge upon what he’s already done lay behind both Gulf Wars. Had Hussein stayed in Iraq and left the Kurds and his neighbours alone, there would’ve been little reason for any US led invasions.

    Your arguments over Al Qaida are pathetic. It was common knowledge that the Taliban harboured them and allowed them to train. The Taliban were warned to give up the perpetrators of 9/11 or face attack. They did nothing to expel Bin Laden and his leaders so the Americans were true to their word. Had the Taliban expelled them and handed them over to the Americans, there would’ve been no reason for any invasion.

    You seek to apply moral equivalence to the barbarism of communist dictators who killed millions of their own civilians to maintain their power and enforce their disastrous economic policies. Every one of the wars that the US military were involved with and killed people were avoidable if totalitarian regimes avoided expanding their influence and territory.

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  93. safesally (36 comments) says:

    Message to Yoza

    You actually HATE Americans. I had already established you were a coward now I see you are a racist as well.

    What a Dick-head

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  94. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    Kiwi in america
    January 7th, 2014 at 1:22 pm

    China and Korea were the Japanese version of Alcase Lorraine and the Sudentenland in Europe. The beginning of Japanese expansion.

    Let’s not forget that Japan wasn’t the only state to use military force in the occupation of China, the US, UK, Japan and Germany were happily united in putting down the Chinese nationalist threat during the Boxer Rebellion. The US did more than nothing when Japan annexed Korea in 1905 when it recognised the legitimacy of the ccupation with the Taft-Katsura Agreement. Japan’s big crime in its re-invasion of China and invasion of Korea was its threat to Western commercial and strategic interests, the thought of Western powers acting out of humanitarian concern for Asians is so absurd it is laughable. The British occupation of Burma, Malaya, Singapore, India and China was not a model of humanitarian administration.

    Japan’s rapid expansion south into smaller weaker countries and of course the attack on Pearl Harbour meant a declaration of war by the US was inevitable but, like France and England, the US was slow to respond to the initial expansions.

    Japan advanced so quickly through those countries precisely because the indigenous populations hated the European colonial occupiers with a vengeance. The Japanese characterised their expansion through South East Asia as a process of liberation, although the viciousness of the Japanese occupation was on a par with their European predecessors.

    You bewail the US bombing of Japanese civilians. The answer was very simple for Japan – don’t keep expanding aggressively and don’t punch the world’s nascent super power in the eye. You start wars, you must live with the consequence of when your enemies prosecute the war as aggressively as possible until you surrender. The blame for Japan’s casualties lies squarely at the feet of the regime.

    If those were US bombs dropping out of US planes on the orders of US commanders against a defenceless civilian population, the responsibility for those deaths rests squarely on US shoulders. As I pointed out previously, those civilians were subjects of a particularly vicious fascist dictatorship. Slaughtering innocent Japanese under the pretext of waging war against Japanese fascists was as appalling as slaughtering innocent Iraqis under the pretext of waging war against Saddam Hussein. Trying to blame anyone else is taking sophistry to an indefensible level.

    DWIGHT EISENHOWER

    “…in [July] 1945… Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. …the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.
    “During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face’. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude…”
    - Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380
    In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson:
    “…the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.”
    - Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

    Kiwi in America:

    The North Koreans and Chinese were not responding to popular uprisings in South Korea, they outright invaded and wanted the whole peninsula to be communist and the west put a stop to it. Of course communism is so popular in South Korea that the South Koreans are flocking to the North…oh wait. Same in Vietnam. The Vietcong weren’t just responding to an uprising, they provoked an uprising and wanted the whole country under communist rule and were prepared to get it at the point of a gun. There’s no denying the corruption of the various South Vietnamese regimes but one only has to view the actions of the Viet Cong once they assumed complete control of the entire country to know that communist dictatorships only survive with continued ruthless internal suppression. Had the Chicoms and NoKo allies stayed in their sphere of influence the US and other nations would never have killed a soul in that peninsula. The North Koreans were the ones who did the invading. The US and allies came to support the South Koreans. The same pattern was repeated in Vietnam. If the Viet Cong had not completed the destruction of some 7,000 settlements in the South, stayed out of trying to destabilize the regime in the south and kept to the north, there would’ve been little motivation for the US to send any troops and kill all the civilians they killed in the process of prosecuting the war.

    This entire paragraph is racist nonsense, You actually believe it is the place of the white man to dictate to Asians who they should accept as leaders and if they don’t accept those leaders acceptable to the white masters it is then the divine right of the white man to invade and slaughter the uppity natives. This is what I read in you attempt to apologise for the US crimes committed against the Vietnamese people.

    safesally
    January 7th, 2014 at 6:01 pm

    Message to Yoza
    You actually HATE Americans. I had already established you were a coward now I see you are a racist as well.
    What a Dick-head

    America is a couple of continents stretching from Alaska in the North to Tierra del Fuego in the South, all the inhabitants of those continents and associated islands are ‘Americans’. Although, I’m guessing when you speak of Americans you are using the ethnocentric terminology specifically referring to the predominantly white residents of the USA. … Sorry, what were you saying about racism?

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  95. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Yoza
    You really are nothing more than a Marxist propaganda machine.

    When one sovereign nation (Japan) attacks the sovereign soil of another nation (the US – Pearl Harbour) under agreed upon international law it is an act of war. Under US law, only Congress can declare war which of course it did on December 8, 1941 (82-0 in the Senate and 388 to 1 in the House). Japan waged a vicious war throughout the Pacific and Asia and in particular inflicted terrible casualties on the civilian population of the Philippines. When you chose to go to war you must expect the consequences of that war and that is that your enemies will try to defeat you by whatever military means possible. If the people of Japan allowed a fascist (your words) government to wage war pressing the citizens of Japan into the fight and diverting the industrial might of the nation to the war effort then they cannot be surprised when the war eventually came to their homeland. If Japan had not invaded and attacked its neighbours across Asia and the Pacific there would have been no US bombs raining down on Japanese civilians. An 8 year old can grasp that Japan brought the US attacks upon itself. Only in the twisted mind of the hard left is that concept not understood. Trying to wriggle away from the point by shouting epithets like racism is a time honoured tactic of those on the left who are losing the argument.

    Lets end this with some very simple questions that even you could grasp. Just answer Yes or No:
    1. If Hitler had not invaded Czechoslovakia, Poland, Belgium, Holland, France, Norway and Russia would the US have invaded/attacked Germany to overthrow the Nazis?
    2. If Japan had not invaded Korea, China, the Malay Peninsula, Burma, Thailand, the Philippines, Borneo, New Guinea, countless Pacific Islands, and not attacked Pearl Harbour would the US have ever attacked the Japanese mainland or indeed any Japanese interests?
    3. If the North Koreans (and Chinese) had stayed north of the 38th parallel and never invaded the Republic of Korea (now known as South Korea) would the US have ever invaded/attacked North Korea?
    4. If the Viet Cong had stayed in North Vietnam and never built the Ho Chi Min Trail, funded and fomented uprisings in South Vietnam or invaded South Vietnam would the US have ever attacked or engaged in any military activity in Vietnam?
    5. If Saddam Hussein had not invaded Kuwait, attacked Iran, gassed the Kurds, wiped out the Marsh Arabs, launched missiles on Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Israel would the US have ever attacked/invaded Iraq?
    6. If the Taliban had not harboured Al Qaida in Afghanistan and allowed them to train the 9/11 terrorists or had handed said terrorists over to the Americans after 9/11 when asked would the US have ever invaded/attacked Afghanistan?

    Final question – a bit trickier because its not Yes/No – assuming no expansionist activity on the part of fascist Germany, Italy and Japan and thus no WW2, how many millions would Stalin have still killed in his purges and gulags and how many more millions would Mao have killed and starved in his Great Leap Forward?

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  96. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    This is what I man by racist arrogance:

    4. If the Viet Cong had stayed in North Vietnam and never built the Ho Chi Min Trail, funded and fomented uprisings in South Vietnam or invaded South Vietnam would the US have ever attacked or engaged in any military activity in Vietnam?

    .

    'South Vietnam' is a term used to describe that area of Vietnam which was run by a US proxy and later, when those unpopular proxies were threatened with being deposed by popular uprisings, subjected to a violent US invasion. The Vietnamese people were perfectly entitled to rise up against the armed occupation of their lands at the hands of imperialist white supremacists.
    The US invasion of the southern area of Vietnam was the precursor to northern military opposition in support of their southern brethren.

    As I said before it takes a rigidly racist mindset to think that white supremacy, through the violent invasion and occupation of a country, is an acceptable norm.

    US exercises of white supremacy in places like Korea and Vietnam were as odious as the British, French, Belgian, Portuguese, Spanish and Dutch racially supremacist colonial programs preceding them. Korea and Vietnam are Korean and Vietnamese problems not US problems.

    1. If Hitler had not invaded Czechoslovakia, Poland, Belgium, Holland, France, Norway and Russia would the US have invaded/attacked Germany to overthrow the Nazis?

    The US only joined in when the industrial infrastructure of the main protagonists had been critically damaged. The Russians faced far greater numbers of Nazi troops than did the Allies and by the time the US joined the fray Germany was struggling to maintain parity on too many different fronts. In a way it was facing then the same problem the US is facing now, it just killed too many people and created too greater a resistance to remain a viable force.
    The US has already sown the seeds of the destruction of its own imperial ambitions like so many empires before.

    2. If Japan had not invaded Korea, China, the Malay Peninsula, Burma, Thailand, the Philippines, Borneo, New Guinea, countless Pacific Islands, and not attacked Pearl Harbour would the US have ever attacked the Japanese mainland or indeed any Japanese interests?

    The US was never going to allow anyone else to control shipping lanes it required in its attempt to attain economic dominance, so ‘Yes’, the US would have attacked Japan regardless of whether Japan attacked Pearl Harbour or not.

    5. If Saddam Hussein had not invaded Kuwait, attacked Iran, gassed the Kurds, wiped out the Marsh Arabs, launched missiles on Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Israel would the US have ever attacked/invaded Iraq?

    The US was selling weapons to Saddam Hussein when he was attacking Iran and gassing Kurds, do you not see down the memory hole? Do you not remember the photo of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein:

    “The U.S., having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, high-level officials exchanged visits, and in February 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism. (It had been included several years earlier because of ties with several Palestinian nationalist groups, not Islamicists sharing the worldview of al-Qaeda. Activism by Iraq’s main Shiite Islamicist opposition group, al-Dawa, was a major factor precipitating the war — stirred by Iran’s Islamic revolution, its endeavors included the attempted assassination of Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz.)

    Prolonging the war was phenomenally expensive. Iraq received massive external financial support from the Gulf states, and assistance through loan programs from the U.S. The White House and State Department pressured the Export-Import Bank to provide Iraq with financing, to enhance its credit standing and enable it to obtain loans from other international financial institutions. The U.S. Agriculture Department provided taxpayer-guaranteed loans for purchases of American commodities, to the satisfaction of U.S. grain exporters.

    The U.S. restored formal relations with Iraq in November 1984, but the U.S. had begun, several years earlier, to provide it with intelligence and military support (in secret and contrary to this country’s official neutrality) in accordance with policy directives from President Ronald Reagan. These were prepared pursuant to his March 1982 National Security Study Memorandum (NSSM 4-82) asking for a review of U.S. policy toward the Middle East.”

    Saddam Hussein would not have survived without US military support.

    6. If the Taliban had not harboured Al Qaida in Afghanistan and allowed them to train the 9/11 terrorists or had handed said terrorists over to the Americans after 9/11 when asked would the US have ever invaded/attacked Afghanistan?

    From almost everything I have read the invasion of Afghanistan would have happened regardless of the stance of the Taliban, so ‘yes’, the US would have invaded Afghanistan regardless of the 9/11 attacks.

    Final question – a bit trickier because its not Yes/No – assuming no expansionist activity on the part of fascist Germany, Italy and Japan and thus no WW2, how many millions would Stalin have still killed in his purges and gulags and how many more millions would Mao have killed and starved in his Great Leap Forward?

    Why are you asking me to comment on the antics of totalitarian dictators? It would be pointless to speculate.

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  97. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    Your eyes must hurt from viewing the world through a distorted Marxist lens. Ask virtually any thinking person these questions and they would answer No to every question. Of course that negates the moral equivalence argument you all make on the hard left to justify the murder of millions by Stalin Mao and others. Somehow the millions of Japanese killed in WW2 by the US was as bad as the millions Stalin executed/let die in the gulags – that’s essentially your argument isn’t it?

    But I am interested to see how deep into the revisionist pool you will dive so give us your best guestimate of deaths perpetrated by Stalin and Mao. After all you try to impersonate someone who knows his history, lets see what your research on this matter turns up. Marxists speculate on virtually everything else – except of course the number of deaths of those who disagree with their ideology.

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  98. Yoza (1,361 comments) says:

    kiwi in america (2,225 comments) says:
    January 8th, 2014 at 12:24 pm

    Your eyes must hurt from viewing the world through a distorted Marxist lens.

    A large part of your problem, KIA, is you are arguing with a caricature of your own invention, anyone with a passing familiarity with the origins of socialist thought would understand the gulf between Marx and Bakunin, as I have said before I am in the Bakunin camp so references to my Marxist lens are meaningless and serve only to highlight the degree of ignorance from which you approach an argument.

    Ask virtually any thinking person these questions and they would answer No to every question.

    Completely wrong, only fool would accept the nonsense you reflexively type and defer to the rules you attempt to impose.

    Of course that negates the moral equivalence argument you all make on the hard left to justify the murder of millions by Stalin Mao and others.

    Never have, never will.

    Somehow the millions of Japanese killed in WW2 by the US was as bad as the millions Stalin executed/let die in the gulags – that’s essentially your argument isn’t it?

    Yes, all murder is bad. Mass-murder perpetuated by English speaking white people ‘following orders’ is not ‘good’ murder.
    Take the point you make in one of your previous posts:

    If the people of Japan allowed a fascist (your words) government to wage war pressing the citizens of Japan into the fight and diverting the industrial might of the nation to the war effort then they cannot be surprised when the war eventually came to their homeland. If Japan had not invaded and attacked its neighbours across Asia and the Pacific there would have been no US bombs raining down on Japanese civilians. An 8 year old can grasp that Japan brought the US attacks upon itself.

    Now, apply this logic to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. By your reasoning the people killed in the 9/11 attacks weren’t murdered, but unwitting victims of previous US crimes to which the 9/11 terrorists were responding. The blame, using your logic, rests squarely on the shoulders of US citizens for not more effectively opposing the kinds of US foreign policy initiatives which motivated the formation of terror networks and culminated in the 9/11 attacks.

    I would argue, on the other-hand, that both the US onslaught against the Japanese civilian population at the end of WWII and the 9/11 terrorist attacks were both criminal acts of mass-murder.

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