General Debate 12 January 2014

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wat dabney

The religion of peace.

“Reports of cannibalism and other horrific acts of violence surfaced in the Central African Republic on Saturday night as Christian militias went on the rampage…reports were corroborated by an aid worker who spoke to The Sunday Telegraph, who said: “They were taking machetes to people and burning the bodies and eating them.” ”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/centralafricanrepublic/10565525/Violence-and-reports-of-cannibalism-in-CAR-after-president-quits.html
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January 12, 2014 4:05pm
Reid

wat,

No, it is irony. That atheists like you rest your case on the precise exact equivalent of millions of monkeys typing to eventually produce Shakespeare (even when you have no evidence the monkeys even exist) and calling yourselves scientific; and alleging those who disagree are possessed of “infantile attachment to magical pixies.”

That’s the very definition of irony.

Face it.

Facts are facts, wat.

The most amusing thing is that you atheists can’t even deny there is a problem, when people like Hawking have admitted there is and a whole scientific theory exists to “explain” it.
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January 12, 2014 4:05pm
RF

Anyone heard how the wantabe pirates in Dunedin got on blocking the harbour. I heard that there were about 20 in plastic canoes etc and 40 gas guzzling vehicles in the car park. The glove puppet has his own little boat that he borrowed from his child’s toy box.
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January 12, 2014 4:14pm
wat dabney

Reid,

As has been pointed out to you before, imagining magical pixies to explain away complex scenarios in fact explains nothing.

Not least because you are positing something even more complex to try to wish away the complexity.

You humiliate yourself, explain nothing, and make yourself look even more ridiculous and pathetic by mocking those who attempt to delve into the subject using objective science and evidence.

The reason everyone laughs at you is because you think that simply uttering the word ‘magic’ explains anything. Trust me on this one, it doesn’t.

“Facts are facts, wat.”

So, magic pixie then?
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January 12, 2014 4:15pm
Dean Papa

As a fraction of the lifespan of the Universe, as measured from its beginning to the evaporation of the last black hole, life as we know it is only possible for one-thousandth of a billion billion billionth, billion billion billionth, billion billion billionth of a percent. And that’s why, for me, the most astonishing wonder of the Universe isn’t a star or a planet of a galaxy; it isn’t a thing at all, it’s a moment in tme. And that time is now. – Prof Brian Cox

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDkVS-AN4NU
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January 12, 2014 4:19pm
Manolo

Who would consider voting for this grossly obese con-man?
http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8782630/dotcom-keeps-hinting-about-politics
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January 12, 2014 4:28pm
OneTrack

“Who would consider voting for this grossly obese con-man?”

People who are easily impressed with free fireworks displays and ice-creams, and want more free stuff?
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January 12, 2014 4:30pm
Colville

Who would consider voting for this grossly obese con-man?

Plenty of fools on the left Manolo.

………

Manolo, in other news, had a 2002 Craggy Range Sophia last night….wow! 🙂
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January 12, 2014 4:31pm
Pete George

Photos and comments on the Otago Harbour flotilla here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pro-Oil-and-Gas-Otago/202345206637605?fref=ts

Many vehicles, a few plastic boats, then “Twenty minutes after the “flotilla” assembled, and its all over…”

Quiet about it on the Oil Free Otago page.
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January 12, 2014 4:34pm
Reid

So wat, nothing to say to my 4:05 then? Although addressed to me, your 4:15 appears to be a hallucination of something someone else had said, because it bears no relationship to my 4:05.

But that’s OK, I sense you’re quite emotional over your religion being destroyed by science, you must be feeling very distressed.
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January 12, 2014 4:50pm
Reid

See wat, it works like this.

The only thing that can possibly explain the enormous fine-tuning of natural laws that every scientist even atheist scientists admit exists, is either an intelligent designer or a multiverse.

The problem is, there is no known way to observe any universe other than the one we have. Is there.

Therefore the atheist’s theory that attempts to explain the admitted problem cannot be “scientifically” verified. Can it. Since science is based on observable phenomena, isn’t it.

So it comes down to what is the most rational response.

And atheists say, the most rational response is to hallucinate that there’s a multiverse. Which is the precise equivalent to pretending the most rational response to why the works of Shakespeare exist is because there was a typing pool of monkeys who produced it.

This is only “rational” if you will not admit that it’s more rational to say that Shakespeare designed his work and that’s why they exist.

And that’s your problem, wat. Isn’t it.
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January 12, 2014 5:07pm
chiz

There are plenty of people in the scientific community Reid who think that fine-tuning arguments are bunkum. Just because Hawking and one or two others think there is a problem doesn’t mean everyone agrees.
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January 12, 2014 5:08pm
chiz

Reid:

The only thing that can possibly explain the enormous fine-tuning of natural laws that every scientist even atheist scientists admit exists, is either an intelligent designer or a multiverse.

And here’s the problem Reid – many scientists and atheists don’t agree that there is an “enormous fine-tuning” problem.
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January 12, 2014 5:16pm
Reid

There are plenty of people in the scientific community Reid who think that fine-tuning arguments are bunkum.

There are plenty of people in the scientific community chiz who don’t think that fine-tuning arguments are bunkum as well.

Nature also disagrees – look at the fibonacci sequence occurrences throughout the natural including in us. Then look at particle physics. Then look at carbon generation ion the heart of stars and the resonance tuning involved that. Etc. Then add up all the probabilities of all those things and buy a lotto ticket, you should win big, if you’re right.

Seriously, check my original post, I told you where to start viewing if you want some examples of fine-tuning. Only takes about 10 mins from that point.
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January 12, 2014 5:18pm
chiz

I can’t be bothered watching a long video, especially on my data plan. It is incredibly unlikely that it presents anything I haven’t seen before. The Fibonacci sequence doesn’t have anything to do with fine-tuning and if the video claims it does that proves that the video is bunk as I suspect it is. Personally I’m not convinced that the Hoyle’s argument about carbon fusion and the fine-tuning involved has any merit whatsoever.

A big problem with these kind of arguments is that they make fairly arrogant suppositions about life – that it can only occur in one form, and in only one type of universe. We don’t know that. In universes that are very different to ours there may be forms of life possible that are very very different to us. Its entirely possible, for all we know, that out of all the different possible types of universe a large fraction of them may be inhabitable by one sort of life or another.
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January 12, 2014 5:30pm
MH

it’s because he thinks he’s germane to NZ politics, ja?

As for smacking 9 yr olds, the new fashion is to provide them with minders who supply them with alcohol.
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January 12, 2014 5:30pm
Akaroa

Harking back to the earlier comments on corporal punishment and associated issues, my somewhat late contributory comment is that back in the 40s my parents believed in administering correction physically.

A wooden spoon was the chosen instrument and the offender’s clad nether regions the target.

My abiding memories are:

A. It didn’t hurt.

B, Both punisher and punishee were both acutely embarrassed by the whole ridiculous charade.

It didn’t happen often, but when it did i couldn’t help having a mental picture of those circus clowns with floppy feet and huge check suits who beat each other about with water-bladders and the like.

Totally ineffective discipline-application-wise!!
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January 12, 2014 5:32pm
Paulus

DotCon is not a New Zealand citizen so he cannot be an MP, and is unlikely never to have an NZ Passport, unless Greenpeace Labour get in then he will add this to his other ones – German and Finnish nationalities.
Tri National ……………….
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January 12, 2014 5:38pm
kowtow

Akaroa

According to the bleeding heart types, smacking a kid with a spoon ranks up there in heinousness!
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January 12, 2014 5:41pm
Reid

I can’t be bothered watching a long video, especially on my data plan.

I told you the segment I gave you was 10 mins long. You clearly don’t understand the subject if you allege:

The Fibonacci sequence doesn’t have anything to do with fine-tuning and if the video claims it does that proves that the video is bunk as I suspect it is.

It does because fine tuning is present not only in particles and atoms but also molecules and in cells and the complexity increases as you move up the chain. But even if you do limit it to particles you’re still faced with insurmountable odds trying to explain it coming about by random chance.

Face it chiz, you’re like wat. Your religion is destroyed but you can’t bring yourself to admit it, you’d rather hallucinate a million monkeys produced Shakespeare than admit Shakespeare did it. That’s what you’re saying about the universe, and you can’t escape that. Personally, I’d rather be rational, unlike you and your fellow atheists.
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January 12, 2014 6:00pm
Pete George

kowtow – what you keep failing to acknowledge is that for every ten parents who paddle their kid’s backsides harmlessly there is one probably one who thinks they have a right to lay into their kid inflicting whatever pain and suffering they want to and another who sometimes loses their temper and far exceeds their usual moderate discipline.

And a further problem is that because the ten paddlers keep insisting that using a wooden spoon, or belt, or electric cord, or vaccuum cleaner hose or whatever is their right as a parent and fine the thugs and temper losers think that what they do has society’s approval.
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January 12, 2014 6:01pm
Pete George

you’d rather hallucinate a million monkeys produced Shakespeare than admit Shakespeare did it.

This is a poor example – there’s no credible dispute that Shakespeare existed and that he wrote a whole lot of stuff. In contrast there’s no proof at all of, for example, where and how the various texts of the bible originated. A thousand monkeys are unlikely to be responsible but many people with many memories, ideas, beliefs, selections and interpretations are certain to have been involved.

It’s ironic when Reid accuses others of hallucinating.
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January 12, 2014 6:06pm
nasska

If corporal punishment is to be used it should be short & administered on the backside by nothing more potentially damaging than an open hand. Further, its use should be tapered off as a child develops a sense of reason.

Bradford’s crap legislation was designed to reduce the excesses of physical punishment meted out by the likes of irascible, eighteen stone women bloody near taking a kids head off with a clout as many of the bad tempered bitches used to do. Similarly it put the kibosh on sadistic religious nutters who used the “spare the rod & spoil the child” crap to satisfy their screwed up impulses.

An occasional smack on the arse is an effective circuit breaker to correct a child determined to put on a performance wherever & whenever possible but it would require the wisdom of Solomon to draft a law to regulate parents’ reactions when they’re under stress.

For those still yearning for the clock to be reversed may I suggest a quick read of Colin Crump’s book, “In Endless Fear” describing the early lives of he & his better known brother, Barry. If that is what you think the youth of the country need then you’re sick puppies.
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January 12, 2014 6:09pm
Fletch

As expected, I don’t think I saw anything on either the One news or Prime News in the reporting on the death of Ariel Sharon about his giving back Gaza in 2005. They focussed more on his supposed crimes and nothing about Gaza.

Biased much?
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January 12, 2014 6:12pm
kowtow

RF

See freemarks’ links at 913.

I see that Pro Oil has 545 likes ,while Oil Free Otago (OFO) or Oh Fuck Off has 418.

This is Oil free link……
http://oilfreefuturesummit.weebly.com/saturday-11th-conferene.html

Looks like Greenpeace activism again.
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January 12, 2014 6:14pm
wat dabney

Reid,

“The only thing that can possibly explain the enormous fine-tuning of natural laws that every scientist even atheist scientists admit exists, is either an intelligent designer or a multiverse.

Or something else.

And as I explained before, you are saying that the universe is so comlex that only an even more complex magical pixie could have created it. That a grown man could seriously spout such infantile, babyish nonsense is simply embarrassing. I’d ask how this even more complex pixie came to be created, but frankly I’m not interested in delving more closely into your inadequacies.

But here’s a clue: any time you find yourself saying “magic”as an explanation for something, you’ve already excused yourself from the debate.
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January 12, 2014 6:39pm
wat dabney

“I can’t be bothered watching a long video”.

Allow me summarise it for you:

“Magic”
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January 12, 2014 6:41pm
Pauleastbay

Apart from Mark Taylor the Channel Nine commentators are in full self stroking mode today. They are bloody awful. Especially Mark ” Lord Haw Haw” Nicholas

Where’s Bill?
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January 12, 2014 6:56pm
SPC

So Colin Craig says that as the prosecution of 7 people for whacking the head of a child and 1 for hitting the hand of a child has not ended child abuse then the prosecutions were a waste of time and should not continue.

And by his profound logic as prosecuting drunk drivers and those committing violent assault has not ended drunk driving or violence …
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January 12, 2014 7:08pm
SPC

And also from the Dom Post there is Colin Espiner totally failing to comprehend the facts on alcohol – the lower levels of use of alcohol by those under 18.

The idea that alcohol should not be sold to those 18 and 19 because of the amount of drinking under age 18 is thus invalid – especially as supplying to those under 18 is now targeted by law. So the decline in use under 18 should decline. It is already lower than when the drinking age was last 20.
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January 12, 2014 7:18pm
chiz

Reid:

I told you the segment I gave you was 10 mins long.

Yes but its about half an hour into the video, and I’m on a cheap plan. If I was to jump to the time you mention does my computer download all the preceding half hour and therefore chew up my monthly data limit? I don’t know and don’t care.

This may come as a surprise to you but some of us are already familiar with the fine-tuning argument. I have come across numerous incarnations of this argument over the decades and at a variety of levels – from popular level to academic. Given that your video appears to be creationist in tone it is very very very unlikely that it will include anything I haven’t encountered before.

The Fibonacci sequence doesn’t have anything to do with fine-tuning and if the video claims it does that proves that the video is bunk as I suspect it is.

It does because fine tuning is present not only in particles and atoms but also molecules and in cells and the complexity increases as you move up the chain.

Let me repeat: the Fibonacci sequence has nothing to do with fine-tuning. If the video say it does it just confirms the video is bunk, and if you think it does it just proves that you don’t understand a thing. The fine-tuning argument claims that the laws of physics of the universe are fine-tuned for life. The Fibonacci sequence is not a law of physics.

But even if you do limit it to particles you’re still faced with insurmountable odds trying to explain it coming about by random chance.

Still no evidence that the odds are insurmountable.

Your religion is destroyed but you can’t bring yourself to admit it

Atheism isn’t a religion. And nothing has been destroyed.
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January 12, 2014 7:25pm
Fletch

Peter Mayhew (Chewbacca in the Star Wars movies) has posted some of the photos he made on-set while acting in the movies.

Here’s one of Carrie Fisher and stunt double relaxing between takes, both in their (in)famous Princess Leia bikini slave-girl costumes as featured in Return Of The Jedi.

https://twitter.com/TheWookieeRoars/status/420741269434810369/photo/1

Enjoy!
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January 12, 2014 7:44pm
dime

“And by his profound logic as prosecuting drunk drivers and those committing violent assault has not ended drunk driving or violence …”

the difference being they sold us the anti-smacking law like it was going to stop all violence towards kids. just your typical lefty lie
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January 12, 2014 7:45pm
RF

The green Taliban ship of fools has sunk without a trace in the Dunedin Harbour. Poor old glove puppet .. He was trumpeting that there would a huge crowd protesting and all he got were a few smelly soap dodger gweens who after 10 mts of being seasick retreated to the boat ramp.
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January 12, 2014 7:47pm
SPC

dime, society ended the use of force against children by non parental adults (cane etc) and then moved to reduce the use of force against children by their parents as well. Given the number of step parents around now that was necessary.
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January 12, 2014 7:51pm
nasska

A man walked into work on Monday with two black eyes. His boss asked what happened. The man said “I was sitting behind a big woman at church. When we stood up to sing hymns, I noticed that her dress was caught in her crack, so I pulled it out. She turned around and punched me square in the eye”. “Where did you get the other shiner?” the boss asked. “Well” the man said “I figured she didn’t want it out, so I pushed it back in”.
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January 12, 2014 8:01pm
SPC

Reid, whatever arguments you have regarding how come the universe as a habitat for life is so really well put together, they do not provide evidence for man being directly created by God in God’s image rather than via evolution.
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January 12, 2014 8:01pm
Pete George

they sold us the anti-smacking law like it was going to stop all violence towards kids.

Who sold you that? I don’t recall anyone trying to sell that. It should’ve been obvious it’s a ridiculous claim, there’s no way one small law tweak would do that.
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January 12, 2014 8:16pm
Pete George

Sue Bradford’s Third reading speech had no promises of stopping all violence against kids. She said “Law change alone is not enough”.

What we have been simply seeking to do is remove a defence that has allowed some parents to get away with quite badly beating their children and, most significantly, that has stopped police from taking action in many situations of violence against children.

She states one of the primary goals was so “children will finally receive the same legal protection as adults”.

She says more needs doing, and the law change needs monitoring to make sure it works ok and doesn’t impact on

Bradford, Sue: Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill — Third Reading

[Volume:639;Page:9284]

SUE BRADFORD (Green) : I move, That the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. Nearly 2 years ago my member’s bill to repeal section 59 of the Crimes Act was drawn from the parliamentary ballot. Although I was certainly well aware of the controversial nature of the issue that the bill deals with, after facing hostile audiences when on various election platforms around the country, little did I realise back then the full extent of the difficulties that were yet to come.

I came to Parliament after many years of working for the rights of unemployed people and beneficiaries, and was very used to our groups and ourselves being seen as outcasts—koretake, blamed, and despised. I was used to being physically assaulted when on street protests and, often enough, arrested as well. However, none of that prepared me for the level of vitriol and for the ugly lies and threats cast at myself and others, simply for standing up for the right of our babies and our children to live lives free from violence.

I thought that in a country that prides itself on being a great place to bring up kids, and where people from all parts of society talk constantly of their love for children, it would be like motherhood and apple pie to work for a law change that benefits children. Instead, the debate over whether to get rid of the defence of reasonable force for the purpose of correction has shown quite starkly that some people believe that the right of parents to legally beat their children is so important that they have stooped to threats of violence and other abhorrent tactics. However, it has in the end been a wonderful thing that despite the ugliness of some aspects of the public discourse, so many members of this Parliament from almost every party have chosen to support my bill in its amended form.

I acknowledge and thank all involved, from all sides of the House, for their support within this outbreak of consensus politics, and I regret, on behalf of Peter Dunne and Judy Turner, that this bill has seen their party break apart because someone called Mr Gordon Copeland is so dedicated to fighting for the right to beat children that he has abandoned his long-term allegiances.

The bill in front of us tonight fulfils my original goal of removing the defence of reasonable force, while at the same time dealing with some of the fears expressed at different times by both the Labour and National caucuses, and by some members of the public. The Labour-led amendment that came out of our select committee consideration of the bill is aimed at reassuring parents that they will not be prosecuted if they use reasonable force when doing things like putting a child in a room for time out, forcibly removing a child from danger, or restraining a child from causing damage to people or property. I am aware that some lawyers believe that this new provision may be misused as a legal defence for having hit a child as part of control, and because of this I believe that its use as a defence in future must be monitored to ensure that it is not used this way in practice.

The second significant amendment to the bill has been the one put forward just 2 weeks ago by Peter Dunne, which was agreed to by both Labour and National through John Key’s leadership. It encapsulates within the bill the long-established police discretion regarding the action they take when deciding whether to prosecute in very minor cases where there is no public interest in proceeding. This new provision simply affirms in law what is standard police practice under their existing prosecution guidelines, but I think it is useful in helping to calm some of the unnecessary fears that have been driven up by the bill’s opponents.

Neither the select committee, myself, nor anyone else supporting this bill has ever intended that all parents who ever lightly or occasionally hit their children should be subject automatically to investigation and police prosecution. What we have been simply seeking to do is remove a defence that has allowed some parents to get away with quite badly beating their children and, most significantly, that has stopped police from taking action in many situations of violence against children.

Some of the most powerful submissions to the select committee came from paediatricians, who talked about the injuries they see constantly and about how most of those injuries are inflicted in the name of child discipline. Only last week we were made all too aware of the case of the 3-year-old Ōtara boy who was killed as a result of beatings inflicted in the name of toilet training. The police officer who led the investigation, Detective Senior Sergeant Richard Middleton, said, among other things: “… what I will say is keep your hands off your kids. Don’t hit them. It’s not on. There’s no need for it.” I think it is a red-letter day when a senior police officer feels able to make such an unequivocal statement in the national media. Police, like paediatricians, see the daily consequences of what happens when people assault their kids just to teach them a lesson.

Some people say that smacking or spanking is not violence. I ask them: “What else is it? If a burly gang member, much larger than you, smacked you in the pub tonight, what would you call that?”. Some people say that the deaths of children like James Whakaruru or the little Ōtara boy have nothing to do with this bill. I say that they have everything to do with it. There is a spectrum of violence used against our babies and children, and one person’s light, occasional tap is another person’s beating or shaking to death—all in the name of so-called correction.

I have been much criticised by the bill’s opponents for my unwillingness to support the early amendment put up by Mr Chester Borrows, which attempted to define the nature and level of force that parents could legitimately use against their kids. I simply reiterate that to support any such definition would make things even worse for children, by having the State define acceptable violence and by entrenching the legal and social concept that it is OK to beat children but it is not OK to beat adults.

It is important that as we finally vote this bill into law we also look forward to what else needs doing. Law change alone is not enough. To be really effective, the bill we are passing tonight needs to be accompanied by a well-planned public information campaign that tells people the intentions and implications of the law in a way that does not make people feel frightened or guilty. The Government also needs to make an ongoing commitment to maintain and extend the SKIP programme, so that strong, clear messages about alternatives to physical discipline are available to all parents around the country.

Funding for community groups that support children, parents, and families needs to be increased. We need research on, and monitoring of, the attitudinal change that I feel sure will result from this new law—as it already has, I think, during the 2 years of public debate. The interpretations of the new law, and its implementation by the courts, police, and Child, Youth and Family, all need to be monitored well. I welcome the 2-year review that was instigated by the Minister David Benson-Pope. I also strongly recommend that the Government works closely with the relevant non-governmental organisations, following the bill’s passage, on an action plan to ensure that the best possible outcomes are achieved for children and families.

In conclusion, I would like to take a moment to thank some of those who have played such a critical role in championing and supporting this bill in getting it to the stage it is at tonight. An enormous number of organisations have worked tirelessly for reform over the last 2 years, including Plunket, Barnardos, Unicef, Save the Children, the Families Commission, the Office of the Children’s Commissioner, EPOCH, Every Child Counts, the Body Shop, the Child Poverty Action Group, Parents Centres, and many, many others. I am sorry I cannot name them all.

Many individuals have also played a key role—people like Beth Wood, the Ritchies in Hamilton, Mike Coleman, Deborah Morris-Travers, Megan Payne, Ian Hassall, Cindy Kiro, Kaye Crowther, Robert Ludbrook, Sonja Hogan, Rhonda Pritchard, and David Kenkel. I salute all of them and apologise to all the many others I do not have time to mention tonight.

I also say a special thanks to the Reverends Anthony Dancer and Margaret Mayman, and to all the other clergy involved in hosting the moving ecumenical service that a number of us attended in the cathedral up the road a couple of weeks ago, for their assistance in mobilising Christians in support of this bill. I also acknowledge the huge amount of work done by the MPs and officials involved in the very long select committee process, including the sterling efforts of our Parliamentary Counsel Office adviser, Elizabeth Grant.

Finally, I say a huge thanks to all the MPs who stood firm in support of this bill during some fairly dark days, including Helen Clark and the Labour caucus, the entire Māori Party caucus, all my own Green Party colleagues, Peter Dunne, Brian Donnelly, Doug Woolerton, and Katherine Rich. Those members are all heroes in their commitment to a vision of a country where children will finally receive the same legal protection as adults. I also acknowledge the lead that John Key took in working to find a way through a seeming impasse, so that his party, too, could lend its full weight to the mana of this bill.

But, in the end, this bill is not about us here at Parliament—or, indeed, about adults at all. It is about our children, and what I believe is their God-given right to grow up secure in the love of their families, valued as equal citizens to the rest of us, and without the constant threat of legalised violence being used against them.

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/debates/debates/speeches/48HansS_20070516_00001048/bradford-sue-crimes-substituted-section-59-amendment

That speech should be shown whenever any outlandish claims are made about the bill.
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January 12, 2014 8:29pm
nasska

Whatever anyone thinks of the repeal of S59 it has discouraged mindless violence dished out by parents in the name of discipline. Colin Craig & his followers are probably mad, if not evil, when they want a return to the values & standards of the 50’s……

IN ENDLESS FEAR: A TRUE STORY by Colin Crump.

From the New Zealand Herald:

“My left ear was still quite black and the pain in my right hand, I learnt later, was actually from a fracture … The livid purple mark across my throat drew the most attention … clearly showing a sock pattern that hung in there for days … made by the old man holding my head down to the floor with his foot across my throat while he laid into me with a broken piece of horse harness. It was a hell of flogging and the smell of his feet in his stinking socks will haunt me forever. Barry, who was just one year older than I, having turned eight only the week before, had also just experienced one of his worst floggings ever and the sock-mark imprinted on his throat was semi-permanent.”

Such was the horror of the childhood of that good, keen man Barry Crump, as shared and now told by his brother Colin. This book sustains the horror right through: the beatings that left one or other sibling trembling beneath the porch for days on end; the beatings of their mother; the looking-the-other-way of their extended family; the police’s refusal to do anything, instead returning Colin and Barry to their father after a brave attempt to find “child welfare”. As Colin says of their older brother Bill, who possibly suffered even more violence than the other two, “While no excuses are made on his behalf for any of the faults and failings that plagued his life as a husband and father – as with Barry – when you are aware of the treatment these men received in their earliest and most vulnerable years, what else can you expect?”
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January 12, 2014 8:33pm
itstricky

they sold us the anti-smacking law like it was going to stop all violence towards kids.

Who sold you that? I don’t recall anyone trying to sell that. It should’ve been obvious it’s a ridiculous claim, there’s no way one small law tweak would do that.

F’ing John Key. He introduced that apprentice bill and promised that it was going to solve ALL unemployment. Typical righty.
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January 12, 2014 8:34pm
RichardX

As always Reid, you believe what you chose to believe
“absolute proof from scientists there is an intelligent creator.” is a huge statement and once again, you have failed to meet the burden of proof anywhere but in your own head

Reid (14,663 comments) says:
January 12th, 2014 at 1:51 pm
I’m afraid from that quote and also the video, Richard’s and Leonard’s contention on the vastness of the universe being the explanation of the production of the conditions supporting life, is totally destroyed by the video I posted Richard

You have missed the point of the video I posted
The vid in your post uses a quote from Leonard Susskind as part of the evidence of the finely tuned universe when the quote was taken out of context and he quite clearly does not believe in a creator. There are likely to be many more such misrepresentations in there but I have already wasted an hour of my Sunday on this crap

A video containing; a mismatch of out of context quotes, repeated usage of ‘maybe’, ‘suggests’ and ‘possibly’, arguable philosophical points such as the cosmological argument for the existence of god, and other red herrings does not provide “absolute proof from scientists there is an intelligent creator” no matter how fervently you believe it

To use a statement such as “Your religion is destroyed” is truly desperate and to claim “Personally, I’d rather be rational” adds to your delusion. I do feel pity for someone who misses the irony of saying magic is a better answer than science because science does not claim to know everything and not all scientists agree on everything. Have you considered that you may be suffering from some sort of condition such as cognitive dissonance?
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January 12, 2014 8:42pm
lilman

Love oil drilling in the south,I hope it goes well and we have oil and gas coming out our ears.

Cant believe the mayors position ,if he were my mayor his phone would be red hot.soft cock local government.
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January 12, 2014 8:43pm
SPC

“Astronomers have measured the distances between galaxies in the universe to an accuracy of just 1%.

While we can’t say with certainty, it’s likely the universe extends forever in space and will go on forever in time. Our results are consistent with an infinite universe,” he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25663810

His comments which are not certain conclusions are at variance with opinion that the universe had a beginning in time and is finite. They would also exclude any other universe.
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January 12, 2014 8:44pm
Pete George

Funny itstricky.

Some seem to be convinced that the MOM bill would allow all government departments and SOEs to be sold off cheap to Key’s overseas mates. The Sky conference centre deal will make all poor people gamble. The GCSB bill will mean all our phone calls and emails will be recorded forever. Etc etc.
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January 12, 2014 8:48pm
Nostalgia-NZ

What is it with you nasska and Colin Craig? You seem obsessed with something you believe about the man as though it’s representative of something in your own past and are tormented by it.
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January 12, 2014 9:10pm
nasska

Study a bit of two bob psychology in your free time Nostalgia? 🙂
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January 12, 2014 9:16pm
Nostalgia-NZ

‘Colin Craig & his followers are probably mad, if not evil’

Don’t need to.
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January 12, 2014 9:25pm
bereal

i don’t give a shit if C Craig is a bit loopy.

If he turns out to be what we need to keep Cunliffe, Ardern, Robertson, Moroney et al out
he has my vote.

And of course compared to the Greens…….
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January 12, 2014 10:22pm
bereal

If you needed any confirmation as to how fucked up the Obama administration is….

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-white-house-iran-nuclear-deal-20140110,0,1510706.story#axzz2qB0hztpW

History will record Obama as the most shallow, weak, useless president ever.

Maybe the one man who single handedly fucked up and sold out the whole free world.

This useless prick makes Neville Chamberlain look like …….(add your own adjective)
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January 12, 2014 11:03pm
Tom Jackson

Since it’s Sunday, here’s a doco giving absolute proof from scientists there is an intelligent creator. Atheists often mindlessly state, incorrectly, that science opposes theology. Well here are scientists proving the exact opposite. If you want some of the hard numbers, go to 26:20 and start watching from there.

Your anencephalic existence is proof that an omnipotent omnibenevolent god does not exist. Did you even pass school c?
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January 13, 2014 12:38am
Manolo

The Messiah to split from Marie Antoniette?
http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/world-news/around-the-globe/report-barack-and-michelle-obama-are-going-to-divorce-2822

According to some reports in Russia and the United States, Barack and Michelle Obama are going through a severe marital crisis, which reached its peak after distorted photographs were taken of Obama with the head of the Danish government during the memorial ceremony of Nelson Mandela. There is no official confirmation to the rumors.
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January 13, 2014 6:48am

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