Labour jumps the shark

January 28th, 2014 at 8:25 pm by David Farrar

3 News reports:

The Party has put forward a possible solution to force multi-national corporations to pay more – ban them from the internet.

It says the Government should first talk with companies like , but if that doesn’t work it is important to have a backup, something Labour is describing as a credible threat.

Facebook is the world’s largest social network by far, but pays little tax here in New Zealand.

“The Government should always have in its back pocket the ability to ban websites,” says Labour revenue spokesman .

No they shouldn’t. At all.

But Finance Minister Bill English says “frankly, that sounds nuts”.

“Fine print, he’s going to close down Facebook,” says Prime Minister John Key. “That’ll be interesting.”

Not just Facebook. Labour says Google, Apple and Amazon also don’t pay enough tax, so I presume they are included in the list of sites they might try and ban. Perhaps EBay also?

Why stop there. Fairfax and APN pay no tax, or very little tax, in New Zealand. Maybe Labour will also try and ban the NZ Herald and Stuff websites.

“Paedophile websites are banned the world around,” says Mr Clark.

Oh my God. He is comparing Facebook to paedophile websites. How can anyone think Labour is even close to ready for power, when they come out with this crap.

And as it happens paedophile websites are not banned in NZ. It is illegal to download or upload paedophile images, and browsing such a site may be a criminal offence, but the Government has no power to ban any website.

Putting aside the sheer lunacy of advocating the Government should try and ban Facebook if they don’t pay more tax, isn’t there something deeply malevolent about an aspiring Government making such threats. If you think a company should pay more tax, then you change the law to close down loopholes. But to declare as an MP that you have unilaterally decided Company X should pay more tax, and that you will threaten to ban them from New Zealand unless they voluntarily agree to pay more tax is what you expect from some tin pot third world dictatorship, not a so called serious political party.

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70 Responses to “Labour jumps the shark”

  1. Joanne (177 comments) says:

    Speechless, friggen speechless and it’s only Tuesday.

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  2. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    Putting aside the sheer lunacy of advocating the Government should try and ban Facebook if they don’t pay more tax, isn’t there something deeply malevolent about an aspiring Government making such threats. If you think a company should pay more tax, then you change the law to close down loopholes.

    This is the real issue. Labour can’t close a loophole because the fact of the matter is there isn’t one. Facebook are simply complying with NZ’s tax laws. For them to pay any more would amount to a voluntary donation.

    It’s quite chilling anyone would advocate paying more tax than the law says, based on a financially illiterate Labour MP.

    Funny, the last country I visited also banned Facebook – China. It’s also a communist dictatorship. Funny that.

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  3. deadrightkev (507 comments) says:

    I cant wait until Labour and the Greens are outlawed as a danger to society.

    Its not even the election campaign and these wankers are proving how retarded they are.

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  4. srylands (414 comments) says:

    This quote from Clark is shocking if correct:

    “It’s important to have a credible threat, but generally sitting down with them will lead them to review their affairs.”

    Exactly what you would see in Nigeria or Argentina – Ministers calling businesses in for a chat about handing over more money. It is terrible. It is not the role of Ministers to call in companies and talk to them about their tax liabilities. Incredible stuff.

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  5. Reboot (101 comments) says:

    David Clark has I Predict stock that Labour will lose the next election. Today’s announcement is genius.

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  6. dime (10,095 comments) says:

    Wow. It’s like labour are into self harming. Maybe cutting themselves was doing it for them anymore.

    Are they trying to sabotage no friends? Will no friends be handed a snapper soon?

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  7. CJPhoto (227 comments) says:

    APN has done of the most Rapacious ‘legitimate’ tax avoidance in NZ over the past decade or so. Can someone please put that to David Clark.

    With over $50m in tax losses carried forward, and financing structures in place, it is unlikely to ever pay taxes unless the IRD is able to win the current cases they have against Wilson & Horton.

    The Hortons must be furious that their good name has been tarnished!

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  8. dime (10,095 comments) says:

    Who has more to lose?

    A) the company with a billion users faces the possibility of losing 2 million or so users

    B) the idiots that rely on votes for their jobs. The people that rely on all those single moms spending their lives on the dpb/Facebook.

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  9. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    He is comparing Facebook to paedophile websites

    Paedophiles pay more tax than Facebook. It’s not very often that paedophiles can claim the moral high ground :)

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  10. CJPhoto (227 comments) says:

    I hope Labour isn’t planning a facebook campaign for their election, and are planning on removing their current Facebook page.

    That would be the moral thing to do based on their stance – you wouldn’t want to be supporting unethical tax avoiders!

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  11. Grizz (610 comments) says:

    Time for an anonymous campaign.

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  12. davidp (3,587 comments) says:

    I’ve been following politics since I was a boy. Maybe 35 years or so. And this is the single maddest policy announcement in that time, from any party including the Greens. Seriously. Robert Mugabe and Kim Jong Un are probably reading about Labour on the internet and shaking their heads thinking about the sheer unadulterated madness, but secretly jealous that they never thought of a policy quite this mad.

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  13. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Clark may be a Luddite, and have no idea of the realities of such proposals. But doesn’t Labour have a vocal and self-styled communications expert amongst its spokespeople? Two in fact.

    So the only conclusion to be drawn vis-a-viz their role, is that they’re either similarly ignorant, or considered so unimportant that their input isn’t sought by senior spokespeople.

    Rather dysfunctional… reminds me of the dying days of NZF’s brief spell as a legitimate party, when putting people in their place, and keeping them there, was vastly more important than ensuring consistency and credibility across its public positions. Back then Terry Heffernan and I called it “Paranoia Palace”. Labour is showing every sign of being deserving of the title these days.

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  14. hmmokrightitis (1,595 comments) says:

    So, Im confused Ross, youre supporting labour AND pedophiles? Because Im assuming as a dyed in the wool red, you think whats been proposed is two thumbs up, right?

    If ANYTHING sums up this bunch of fucking idiots, its this. Banning Facebook. If its wasn’t so scary (that these morons might get elected) it would be hilarious.

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  15. davidp (3,587 comments) says:

    CJPhoto>I hope Labour isn’t planning a facebook campaign for their election, and are planning on removing their current Facebook page.

    Here he is… https://www.facebook.com/DavidClarkforDunedinNorth

    I suspect he is probably also sponsoring a paedophile or something.

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  16. Zapper (1,027 comments) says:

    I think this is great news and I hope the Greens agree with it. Because they would never be hypocritical, this will mean all Labour and Green Facebook pages, and those of their supporters, will be taken down. Thank fuck for that, I can come here and see what ross has to say if I miss retardation.

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  17. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Only ross could find a way to to support this. Amazing.

    Only Facebook et al could make paedophiles look respectable. :)

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  18. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Strangely, DPF forget to mention what National thinks on the issue:

    “I think they should pay their fair share [of tax],” says Mr English.

    Hmmm so National agrees with Labour. Wow.

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  19. Zapper (1,027 comments) says:

    So not paying voluntary tax is worse than abusing a child.

    How much voluntary tax do you pay ross?

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  20. Zapper (1,027 comments) says:

    “Hmmm so National agrees with Labour. Wow.”

    Where in that quote does it mention banning?

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  21. hmmokrightitis (1,595 comments) says:

    And have you stopped abusing children ross?

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  22. big bruv (14,132 comments) says:

    Hmmmm…. the NZ Labour party and the stinking Greens wanting to silence those who do not agree with them

    Where have I heard that before?

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  23. Zebulon (124 comments) says:

    Yes these corporations should pay more tax, but the idea that censorship is the answer is beyond a joke. Will we have the Stasi monitoring everyone to ensure that nobody circumvents the ban? Are these people fit to govern?

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  24. dime (10,095 comments) says:

    Can someone out there please start a “save Facebook” page?

    Then we can get one of those bullshit “it has 10,000 likes in two days” news stories.

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  25. davidp (3,587 comments) says:

    ross69>“I think they should pay their fair share [of tax],” says Mr English. Hmmm so National agrees with Labour. Wow.

    Errr… No. Labour thinks they should pay more tax. National think they should pay their fair share of tax. The fair share for a company based overseas that isn’t delivering any IT services from NZ and isn’t using any NZ government services is a very small amount.

    Do NZ web sites have these problems with foreign opposition parties? Plenty of blogs and other NZ web sites have advertising and sometimes that advertising is for products that can be purchased internationally. Do opposition politicians in Vanuatu, the Congo, or Mongolia bang on about the NZ bloggers not paying enough tax in their jurisdictions?

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  26. Buaidh No Bars (18 comments) says:

    Let me see if i understand this correctly.

    Lets ban any organisation that does not pay any income tax.

    Xero.
    All Churchs.
    All Educational Institutions.
    Etc

    What a tosser.
    Income tax is only one tay there is payroll, gst, fbt esct to name a few.
    In Dunedin he is an embarassment to all in his electorate especially me.

    This is jealousy policy as promoted by Cullen.

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  27. Buaidh No Bars (18 comments) says:

    Let me see if i understand this correctly.

    Lets ban any organisation that does not pay any income tax or what he considers enough.
    Enough by whose measure?

    Lets start with:

    Xero.
    All Churchs – he should understand with his religious background
    All Educational Institutions.
    Etc

    What a tosser.
    Income tax is only one tay there is payroll, gst, fbt esct to name a few.
    In Dunedin he is an embarassment to all in his electorate especially me.

    This is jealousy policy as promoted by Cullen.
    Even worse it is promoted by someone with no understanding.

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  28. Say Goodbye to Hollywood (563 comments) says:

    And these clowns what to run the country. Jeez.

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  29. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    So not paying voluntary tax is worse than abusing a child.

    You don’t seem to know what a paedophile is.

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  30. Pete George (23,680 comments) says:

    This one is too loony for the Greens.

    @GarethMP

    @pitakakariki you do it by changing the rules, not threatening to ban them. We should never ever talk about banning legal websites

    Greens will not threaten to ban legal websites like Facebook

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  31. burt (8,309 comments) says:

    dime

    Labour might start a ‘save Facebook’ page and then anyone who like’d it will be sent to reeducation classes.

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  32. Sponge (226 comments) says:

    What a monumentally stupid comment. Honestly it just beggars belief that a possible future revenue minister thinks that stand over tactics against a massive multinational are a good idea. I often exaggerate about Labours stupidity but this there there is simply no need.

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  33. OneTrack (3,218 comments) says:

    The totalitarian is strong in this one, Obi-Wan.

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  34. Pete George (23,680 comments) says:

    Even worse it is promoted by someone with no understanding.

    Unfortunately it’s not the first time Clark has shown basic lack of understanding of what he is talking about. He has failed to live up to the hype as supposedly a fast riser through the Labour ranks – Shearer put him at 12 but Cunliffe dropped him back down.

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  35. dime (10,095 comments) says:

    Rumor has it labour will be creating “kiwibook”.

    This will employ at least three graduates and cost 90 million dollars

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  36. Than (487 comments) says:

    This one is too loony for the Greens.

    More likely they just have a lot of internet-generation voters and realise how politically suicidal banning Facebook (or Google/Amazon/TradeMe) would be.

    There is so much lunacy in this quote it’s hard to know where to start. But I’ll go with the fact that Facebook is bigger than the NZ government. If Labour threatens them they’ll shrug, get banned, and wait until that government is voted out in a landslide. The alternative would be setting a precedent that might be applied in countries big enough they actually care.

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  37. wreck1080 (3,956 comments) says:

    Welcome to the communist state of new zealand!!!

    Yikes if labour wins the election!!!

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  38. lofty (1,317 comments) says:

    You beat me to the punch Than.
    You are spot on with your comments on the watermelons and labour.
    The watermelons would ban Facebook in a heartbeat if they thought they would not alienate those useful, unable to understand idiots that would vote for them and that use it.
    Labour on the other hand…….words fail me, other than God help us if they get a sniff.

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  39. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    It’s not very often that paedophiles can claim the moral high ground

    According to ross69 not paying tax you arent required to pay is an immoral act. Yet how much extra tax has he failed to pay over the years? It could be millions.

    Then again, what would you expect from someone who RESPECTS PEDOPHILES!!!!!

    Only Facebook et al could make pedophiles look respectable.

    Its time to retire from the internet ross69.

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  40. radvad (772 comments) says:

    The worst part of this is it is another example of the left targeting and publicly naming and smearing private individuals, companies and other institutions who are doing nothing more than carrying on their legal business. Remember the shameful public persecution of the Exclusives Brethren who were guilty of nothing more than legally participating in the democratic process.

    Gangster government at its worst. You have been warned.

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  41. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    Look on the upside….. There goes the election for them, right there. Like dying fish..flapping around on the sea shore

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  42. OneTrack (3,218 comments) says:

    dpf – “…, but the Government has no power to ban any website.”

    They don’t have that power NOW. But Labour/Green will bring new rules. Hmm, might kiwiblog end up on the ban list? Whale almost certainly will. Well he sounds like a “climate change denier”.

    Ahh, the brave new world. Viva la revolution.

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  43. gander (91 comments) says:

    ross69 (3,361 comments) says:
    January 28th, 2014 at 8:38 pm

    Paedophiles pay more tax than Facebook.

    So Ross69, do you work for IRD, or are you an accountant with paedophiles as clients?

    To suggest the other alternative would seem defamatory.

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  44. PaulL (6,040 comments) says:

    Prediction: backing away from this, or redefining it, or any other euphemism for killing it stone dead. Followed by a regular outing in National Party election ads. It’s like we’re in a stupid contest, and Labour just played the winning card.

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  45. lofty (1,317 comments) says:

    Radvad is on to it at 9:56.

    We have been warned. If you are a business owner and piss those pricks off, they will take great delight in naming and defaming under privilege, and fuck the tax take….vindictive bullying cowards!

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  46. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (894 comments) says:

    Sounds like a good policy to me. Go Labour.

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  47. Kea (13,352 comments) says:

    We need Labour to publicly give a solid policy commitment on this important issue.

    I want Labour on the telly staring down the camera telling NZ they are shutting down social networking sites, email and search engines because they are greedy corporations.

    I really think this should be encouraged as much as possible. :)

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  48. lofty (1,317 comments) says:

    Kea’s comment of the year ;-)

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  49. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    Ignoring ross’s ability to support anything said by any left of centre politician no matter how stupid and the implied support for paedophiles there is an issue he wanders close to with taxation and corporates.

    There is an implicit historical assumption that any service provided in regime ‘X’ is taxable in that regime. In effect, this no longer occurs for the likes of Google, Microsoft, Facebook et al. All perfectly legal but certainly against the intent of taxation laws. To be fair the assumption on such taxation is that the tax deductible costs also occur in the same regimes, which is no longer a reasonable assumption.

    The current tax approach is gameable and gamed by major corporations in a perfectly legal manner but not one that would be seen as ethical by most and certainly against the intent. It’s pretty clear that they would pay much more tax if they did not have the ability to determine the likes of transfer costs’ locations to low tax regimes.

    I reckon the likes of the EEC will find a way to make the mega corporations pay what they perceive to be a more reasonable level of tax and that will fix it for all.

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  50. Sadu (129 comments) says:

    Wow, this idea is incredible. On so many levels. It sums up in one go why Labour are not fit to govern.

    For a start, and this is perhaps the only funny part – they announce $60 per week to new mums and then threaten to take Facebook away? Lol. Are they trying to win the new mum vote or not?

    Without Facebook, how would the new mums bore their friends with scores of uninteresting baby photos and detailed blow-by-blow accounts of mundane domestic tasks?

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  51. tas (641 comments) says:

    If the NZ govt tried banning facebook, they still wouldn’t comply. Think of it from their perspective – they have two choices:

    (i) Comply. This would open the floodgates as every other country would want facebook to pay more taxes there too. The cost would be in the billions.

    (ii) Give Labour a one-fingered salute. They lose less than 1% of their customers, but get to make an example of NZ. Public sympathy would almost certainly be on their side too.

    Labour are retarded…

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  52. Weihana (4,583 comments) says:

    DPF,

    And as it happens paedophile websites are not banned in NZ. It is illegal to download or upload paedophile images, and browsing such a site may be a criminal offence, but the Government has no power to ban any website.

    I’m pretty sure paedophile websites are illegal in NZ. Refer subsection 3(2) of the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act 1993:


    A publication shall be deemed to be objectionable for the purposes of this Act if the publication promotes or supports, or tends to promote or support,—
    (a)the exploitation of children, or young persons, or both, for sexual purposes; or
    (b)the use of violence or coercion to compel any person to participate in, or submit to, sexual conduct; or
    (c)sexual conduct with or upon the body of a dead person; or
    (d)the use of urine or excrement in association with degrading or dehumanising conduct or sexual conduct; or
    (e)bestiality; or
    (f)acts of torture or the infliction of extreme violence or extreme cruelty.

    Note that a “publication” includes any “print or writing” or “a thing (including, but not limited to, a disc, or an electronic or computer file) on which is recorded or stored information that, by the use of a computer or other electronic device, is capable of being reproduced or shown as 1 or more (or a combination of 1 or more) images, representations, signs, statements, or words”.

    So I’m not sure what distinction is being made by saying they are not banned as they clearly are.

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  53. Weihana (4,583 comments) says:

    tas (430 comments) says:
    January 28th, 2014 at 11:50 pm

    (ii) Give Labour a one-fingered salute. They lose less than 1% of their customers…

    …or they don’t lose any customers because within a few hours a simple update to your app routes traffic through a proxy.

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  54. freemark (614 comments) says:

    Hmmm, not even a mention of this at the Stranded. I think they are so exhausted & dispirited trying to defend the absolute fuckup of the desperate Baby Breeder Bonus Bribe that they have a Collective Cognitive Dissonance. The hate is running strong, whatever those of you still eligible to comment do, don’t mention the Anti School & Hospital Referendum…:)

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  55. kiwi in america (2,508 comments) says:

    Gosh – where to begin. Labour seems determined to score as many own goals as possible. When the Greens publicly and quickly disavow your policy musings you are in a power of trouble. Labour proves it is light years away from being ready to govern because this comment reveals so many glaring deficiencies:
    * Lack of message control by the new Leader’s Office – one thing a good LOO does is ensure all economic pronouncements uttered by any spokesperson are cleared through the LOO office first – even silent T knows this is electoral poison.
    * Clark has made economically illiterate comments before about corporates not paying enough tax – that he has not been warned or advised to excercise constraint speaks volumes for the illiteracy that exists across the front bench. Neither Parker, Cunliffe nor any other prominent front bencher has sought to clarify or contradict Clark’s previous comments about taxing gross revenues rather than profits revealing a deep and fundamental ignorance of the business world and how it operates that is rampant through Labour.
    * The notion that any senior politician in NZ would commit a mainstream party to the type of policy that is only seen in banana republics speaks volumes for how some on the left view the world. To contemplate shutting down the world’s largest social media site in NZ has a King Canute quality to it.

    Finally, Labour had 9 years to attack the issue of multi national corporate transfer pricing tendencies and did ….. well nothing. There is a reason why ‘politics of envy’ specialist and lover of taxes on “rich pricks” Michael Cullen couldn’t manage to get the likes of Amazon or Apple to pay more tax in New Zealand and it’s because you’d have to address this issue and have agreement from not just every first world country’s tax authorities but a raft of tax havens as well. Not happening.

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  56. Duxton (657 comments) says:

    “Paedophile websites are banned the world around,” says Mr Clark.

    Does that mean that a former Labour Minister with a hyphenated surname could never have his own website? Or would they make an exception for him, as they usually do for their own?

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  57. Bogusnews (477 comments) says:

    Very good comment KIA.

    It has always been apparent to me that the tired front bench of Labour is clueless on how the productive sector works, but I have to say, this one astonishes me.

    Hopefully NZ’ers will see this and realise the massive damage Labour will do to our economy if they get in, and hopefully will also realise their illiteracy is the reason why we went into a deep recession 8 months before the rest of the world.

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  58. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    It has always been apparent to me that the tired front bench of Labour is clueless on how the productive sector works

    Nobody with half a brain would use Google and productive sector in the same sentence. :)

    At least the Tories in Australia are more proactive about this issue than their counterparts here.

    http://www.pwc.com.au/tax/taxtalk/assets/monthly/pdf/Transfer-Pricing-Jul13.pdf

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  59. Yoza (1,906 comments) says:

    I think we should ban shark jumping.

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  60. Yoza (1,906 comments) says:

    Over at No Right Turn the positives of banning Facebook are given air:

    “…, if Clark does get elected and follows through with this insanity, it’ll mean half of New Zealand suddenly gets a strong reason to learn basic anti-surveillance techniques. And in the current digital environment, that’s probably a good thing.

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  61. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    Few have got to the reason Labour shoot their traps off without considering how half baked their proposals seem to those who live in the real world..

    Basically they don’t care. The target of their wafflings is an illiterate beneficiary who couldn’t be bothered to make it to the polls in 2011. Labour strategists reckon that all they have to do is stir up the hatred of the ‘rich pricks’, lay in a good supply of KFC vouchers as rewards for voting & victory will be theirs.

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  62. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    ross: I have asked before, are you a beneficiary, public servant, or union lackey? Anyone who can come on here spouting the envious type of crap you do, epitomises the leeching left that have effed this country.

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  63. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Cunliffe: What is the story about 45% capital gains tax on a home/property that is left to family members by deceased parents, when sold. Is this where you are attempting to get the money to pay your bludging breeders? Oh, and what is the hypocrisy around taxing lotto winnings at source?

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  64. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Well if they would ban a website for not paying tax, it is but a short step away from banning a news site for not reporting the news they want.

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  65. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    igm,

    Goff had to fess up in 2011 that CGT on investment properties would include the family home upon the death of both parents – the rationale being that at that point is ceased to be a family home and became an investment property for those it was bequeathed to.

    Labour’s CGT policy includes the re-institution of death duties, no question about it. The fact that they tried so hard to keep quiet on that point shows that it was intended as the re-institution of death duties by stealth

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  66. Cunningham (845 comments) says:

    Good grief the Labour party is just getting more and more rediculious as the year wears on. How do they think this will go down with the genral public? I guess they don’t think hence why they said it in the first place.

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  67. Sofia (862 comments) says:

    Cut Facebook?
    Well, does that mean too banning Apple devices?
    Plunge the education system back into an era without iPads?

    But, looking ahead, what about the corporation-remuneration-for-legislated-loss-of-local markets, as purported to be in the TPP? Is Labour setting themselves up to show the world how these clauses will work?

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  68. Paulus (2,658 comments) says:

    I have a list of Charitable Trusts – and the enormous number of Maori ones do not pay any Tax.
    Ngai Tahu and Tainui should both pay tax.
    Whananga the so called education establishment which still cheats its numbers for funding like wise.
    Sanitarium also.
    The Reverend Doctor David Clark should look beyond the end of his nose.

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  69. Weihana (4,583 comments) says:

    igm (284 comments) says:
    January 29th, 2014 at 7:21 am

    Cunliffe: What is the story about 45% capital gains tax on a home/property that is left to family members by deceased parents, when sold. Is this where you are attempting to get the money to pay your bludging breeders? Oh, and what is the hypocrisy around taxing lotto winnings at source?

    bhudson (4,621 comments) says:
    January 29th, 2014 at 8:29 am

    igm,

    Goff had to fess up in 2011 that CGT on investment properties would include the family home upon the death of both parents – the rationale being that at that point is ceased to be a family home and became an investment property for those it was bequeathed to.

    Labour’s CGT policy includes the re-institution of death duties, no question about it. The fact that they tried so hard to keep quiet on that point shows that it was intended as the re-institution of death duties by stealth

    Bludging breeders… lol. Who do you suppose is paying the pension for all those old folks not working? Why not liquidate your property before bludging from the taxpayer. Then you won’t have any death duties to worry about. :)

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  70. freemark (614 comments) says:

    IGM says.. “ross: I have asked before, are you a beneficiary, public servant, or union lackey? Anyone who can come on here spouting the envious type of crap you do, epitomises the leeching left that have effed this country”
    ross69 of a couple of weeks ago is a part time builder, full time Socialist on Waiheke Island. He gets carved up every time he engages with non idiots on Social Media. His partner is a hard core UK Import Communist with Green Party aspirations and backing from Denise Roche. Although a reasonably pleasant woman she is now part of a Local Board who have been unable to deny widespread allegations of massive electoral fraud. The Community suspects strongly the influence of Roche’s partner who
    got himself embedded in the Census process. Waiheke is the pipeline via which Russel Norman was imported into NZ, and there is at least one Australian with similar aspirations and sponsors coming through the same back door.
    It appears by analysis of language that someone else has now assumed the persona of ross69, just as delusional but slightly better educated. Watermelon Central is moving into Election Year status, decent people need to pull finger and start exposing on a greater scale than KB. The DOS attack on Slater is a practise run.

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