General Debate 12 February 2014

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Reid

EAD, as all of we politicos know: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

The problem is: “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

That’s the problem. And you can see the latter in action every three years here. Where what’s displayed at the box isn’t wisdom but almost childlike naivity at the complete and utter bollocks that the evil ones have spewed forth.

Which is the real problem, because if politicians really were intelligent and genuine we would get good govt after good govt even if the voters had the IQ of a horse (which most do). But they aren’t. So we don’t.

They pretend they are, but they’re not. None of them. None. Repeat, none.
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February 12, 2014 8:30pm
nasska

Reid

I came across this the other day:

….”I for one am looking forward to the day America elects a special needs president…

The people can then be proud and say they’ve finally elected a president who represents the whole country.”….
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February 12, 2014 8:34pm
stephieboy

Reid, Homosexual Acts between consenting adults is a victimless crime. Thats the nub of the issue. The Suicide Act was abolished for the same reason. Nothing to do with social engineering and its all to do what is fair and just. Nobody with perhaps the exception of you and Colin Craig etc wants a to return to Church based control and domination.

Clinton…..Bush….Obama?

Don’t forget Nixon.!
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February 12, 2014 8:38pm
Reid

The people can then be proud and say they’ve finally elected a president who represents the whole country.”….,

Yes, well the arsehole, the philanderer, the idiot son of an arsehole and someone who accepted the Presidential nomination on a stage that looked a lot like the Seat of Satan, doesn’t seem to working very well for them, so perhaps a special needs nominee is just what they need. It couldn’t be any worse, put it that way.

Reid, Homosexual Acts between consenting adults is a victimless crime. Thats the nub of the issue.

Stephie, who gives a shit? That WASN’T what I was talking about in my 10.20 so why don’t you run along and do what I suggested and read what I said, then come back and give us even more of your childish meanderings except this time relevant to what I said. Lest we all think you’re a complete and utter tosser. Although I have to say some people may have already made up their mind on that front, based on your performance to date.
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February 12, 2014 8:39pm
EAD

Reid, that is so true about “Democracy being the worst form of govt except all others”.

IMHO, I think the best way to control Politicians in a democracy is the re-introduction of the gold standard enabling us to vote with our money if government starts spending more than they can take in tax.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-26/guest-post-gold-bugs-and-anti-gold-bugs

Once you realise government is merely an extension of the people who pay tax, the next logical step is to restrict voting only to those who pay for the burden of government.
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February 12, 2014 8:44pm
Reid

I think the best way to control Politicians in a democracy is the re-introduction of the gold standard enabling us to vote with our money if government starts spending more than they can take in tax.

I think the death penalty for allowing a budget deficit might be a good idea too EAD. We could make it even more amusing by having a CIR on who the Finance Minister had to share a cell with before s/he was executed.
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February 12, 2014 8:50pm
nasska

So you think that the Black Rod could be needed for more than one appointment then Reid? 🙂
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February 12, 2014 8:56pm
David Garrett

Reid: did you nick the “….five minute conversation with the average voter” quote from me?? Actually that sounds awfully pretentious…I assume you know the Great Winston Churchill said it?? One I could never refer to when an MP!!
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February 12, 2014 9:04pm
Reid

Not a bad take on Wall Street arrogance.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/jamie-dimons-raise-proves-u-s-regulatory-strategy-is-a-joke-20140130

Which underlies a lot of the US’ problems. Helped along by social engineering memes that promote it, like the Wolf of Wall Street tale of greed. But what do you expect from the US these days? Disappointing all the useful idiots around the world lap it up though and want to be ‘just like them.’ But not surprising. That’s social engineering for you. Too bad all the useful idiots make it so easy for them.

I assume you know the Great Winston Churchill said it?

Of course I do David, as he also said the other one I put in quotes. That’s why I said “we politicos…” because both are so well known I didn’t think I needed to source it. Perhaps the fact you could never refer to it when an MP is part of the problem. Perhaps if people were in fact told on national media that they are in fact babes in the woods politically, it might prompt a few of them to do something about it. After they got over their outrage.
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February 12, 2014 9:04pm
David Garrett

Reid: although I think he is an odious little man, I agree with Paul Henry when he says that people should have to pass some kind of awareness test to be given a vote…It sticks in my craw that some complete idiot should have the same say in who should govern us as I do… What do you think?
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February 12, 2014 9:11pm
big bruv

David Garrett.

Don’t worry about their IQ. Simply take the right to vote away from dole bludgers and DPB slappers.
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February 12, 2014 9:19pm
Reid

It sticks in my craw that some complete idiot should have the same say in who should govern us as I do

It sticks in my craw too David. The issue with a test is how do you design it in a way that keeps the vote ideologically neutral without disenfranchisement, yet prevents Joe and Jane Sixpack from voting for ‘that fulla’ in between placing their bets at the TAB?

Maybe we need a play Parliament where pretend things happen and the Press Gallery and the lefties all hang out, and the real Parliament where actual things happen. Let’s call it a Star Chamber, like in the movie. I bet Joe and Jane would vote for that, if we managed to shut the lefties and the Press Gallery up for 5 mins.
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February 12, 2014 9:23pm
stephieboy

gee, am glad that we have much more saner people running the country like John Key’s than the latest shibboleths about I Q and the right to vote etc.
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February 12, 2014 9:37pm
Reid

The materialist age. What hath we wrought?

What is the value we assign to the life of a human being?

When we take a look at how we treat each other as people, it is safe to say that we do not seem to value human beings very much.

In a system based on materialism and the pursuit of “success,” money and power have come to define a human being’s value. Consequently, nothing has inherent worth – everything is just a means to obtaining a desired end and satisfying our seemingly obsessive need for recognition and power.

In the pursuit of these goals, the environment is being destroyed with a fanatical vigor one expects of an adolescent consciousness whose shortsighted impulse for instant gratification leaves it dangerously indifferent to the consequences of its actions; at the same time, countless human lives are sacrificed in wars over resources while financial tyranny waged against the working class in the form of austerity is plunging millions of people into poverty across the globe. Nothing is off limits in corporate capitalism’s suicidal quest for profits.

But, when everything has a price, nothing has inherent value…

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/02/07/humanity-flux-species-recognizes-worth-actively-destroying/
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February 12, 2014 9:38pm
David Garrett

Stephieboy: You dont even knw the PM’s name!! Unintentionally illustrated Reid’s and my point…

Without Googling, do you know which one of your two votes is the most important? (Yes, you get TWO votes)
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February 12, 2014 9:41pm
Andrei

do you know which one of your two votes is the most important?

The’re both equally worthless – in my electorate the National, Labour and Green candidates are all in Parliament so it matters not a whit which candidate box you tick

And as for the other it is a choice between the looney left (aka National), the incompetant looney left (Labour), the insane looney left (Green), the walking dead (ACT) and a couple of other no hoper options
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February 12, 2014 9:54pm
nasska

You forgot the galloping insane Andrei….the Conservatives will probably try to attract a few wasted votes too. 🙂
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February 12, 2014 10:00pm
Reid

That Rolling Stone article I posted above talks about the greed on Wall Street and it says:

Greenspan described his faith in corporate self-interest as the “whole intellectual edifice” guiding modern risk management. This edifice didn’t admit the even theoretical existence of the corporate executive who behaves with capitalistically impure motives, i.e. the executive who treats his publicly-traded corporation like a mobster treats a restaurant, as a mark to be taken over and burgled for personal profit.

But as we all know by now, when business leaders can get paid tens or hundreds of millions upfront for deals that take years to pan out (or not), when personal compensation isn’t tied to the long-term performance of the company, executives will tend to leverage their firms to the hilt in search of short-term profits, and they won’t think twice about zooming past safety thresholds. This is irrational behavior from a corporate perspective, sure, but totally rational from a personal-greed perspective.

For instance, the men who ran Lehman Brothers, or the unit of AIG that sank that company, each walked away with hundreds of millions, rich forever. Angelo Mozilo pulled $132 million out of Countrywide in 2008 alone, even as all the rotten subprime loans he’d written over the years were collapsing and his company was losing $704 million that year.

Ultimately even Greenspan conceded that individual greed trumps corporate greed. “Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholder’s equity,” he told the House after the 2008 crash, “are in a state of shocked disbelief.”

So even Alan Greenspan figured this out eventually, but apparently Eric Holder and Barack Obama still haven’t caught on. They decided last year to make a big show of punishing JP Morgan Chase as a symbol of bank corruption, then forgot to punish the actual people who oversaw the bank’s misdeeds. This is a little like trying to rein in a class bully by halving his school’s budget. It doesn’t work. Crimes are committed by people, and justice has to target people, too. Or else the whole thing is a joke, as we found out last week.

This is what politicians do too, and it’s what we need to stop. And voting them out doesn’t cut it. We need a system that will personally punish politicians who make dumb decisions, by hurting them financially, even after they retire. Until we have that, hardly any or even none of them, like the CEOs above, will focus on anything other than their own short-term self-interest: re-election, re-election, re-election, cushy retirement.
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February 12, 2014 10:02pm
stephieboy

Andrei that only leaves the insane loony right ,the Conservatives.?
Surely.?
Garrett, unlike you I think the electorate are lot more saner and cleverer than you take them to be.
That thought is more preferable than your patronizing and condescending hum bug.
Know the PM’s name.?
Maybe but i think he live’s here.
Correct.?

http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=-36.853149&lon=174.790109&z=18&m=b&show=/23324637/PM-John-Key-s-Parnell-Residence
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February 12, 2014 10:04pm
srylands

Lynne Prentice at The Standard blogs, in an attack on the Taxpayers Union

“High income people have accountants. They don’t pay many taxes.”

“Half of the tax collected from individuals by the government comes from sales taxes and fees. Somehow morons like yourself never seem to look at where they come from. I’ll give you a hint. Overwhelmingly from people at or lower than average income and they pay most of the income tax as well.”

“Nett effect is that they usually pay a higher percentage of tax against their income than those on high incomes.”

http://thestandard.org.nz/jordan-williams-running-the-shell-game/#comment-772067

This line from the left that people “with accountants” magically make their tax obligations go away really raises my blood pressure. I run a professional services business and my deductable expenses are modest in relation to revenue. I pay a SHIT LOAD of tax.

The Left have this fantasy – despite the evidence to the contrary – that the “rich” are all tax evaders and the country is being carried by the poor.

This must be another area for National to hammer – the “rich pricks” are actually keeping the joint afloat. Fucking steam coming out of my ears.
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February 12, 2014 10:23pm
RichardX

Reid (14,825 comments) says:
February 12th, 2014 at 8:08 pm
Yet another false dichotomy from Reid. Freedom from religion exists in western nations
Good point Richard. Except I was talking about the homosexualisation of the western world aka the gay rights social engineering meme, not religion.
D’oh.
It’s not rocket science you know. It’s called “reading what the other person said.” Perhaps you and stephie should try it sometime. You might stop making fools of yourselves. Possibly.

Did you actually read and understand what I wrote

Your false dichotomy is based on the fact that you think that any form of gay rights is based on your meme of social engineering and I reject your premise. The reality is that due to the freedom from religion that is prevalent in the western world gay people are no longer demonized just because various ancient texts state they should be. Some may say the pendulum has swung too far in favour of the gay community but that is what happens when a repressed group are given more freedom

As always you view the world through your own belief system and assign models that reinforce your world view when there are other possibilities. You call it social engineering, I say freedom from religion is one factor
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February 12, 2014 10:25pm
Reid

Did you actually read and understand what I wrote

Your false dichotomy is based on the fact that you think that any form of gay rights is based on your meme of social engineering and I reject your premise.

Actually Richard I don’t think that at all and it’s interesting you’re so arrogant as to assume you know what I do think, but that sometimes happens with stupid people with limited imagination and logical capacity.

See I think gays are fine. Why as I said in my 10.20 my brother is gay, therefore I have an intimate understanding of at least one gay’s life dating back to infancy, which is a far greater depth of understanding I daresay than you have, even if you have a hundred gay acquaintances. Therefore I have no problem with gays, I have no problem with their lifestyle.

It’s clear you have no idea what I was saying in my 10.20, so I think you should read it again, and again, and again, until you do understand what I was saying. Until you make a comment that actually relates to what I really was saying, I won’t be responding to it, but if you make yet another comment demonstrating what a great moron you are, I’ll be happy to point that out, again and again and again, until you demonstrate your thick skull has been penetrated by the light.
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February 12, 2014 10:47pm
RichardX

Reid (14,827 comments) says:
February 12th, 2014 at 10:47 pm
It’s clear you have no idea what I was saying in my 10.20

Looks like I over estimated your comprehension skills
Let me spell it out for you
What you refer to as ”homosexualisation of the western world aka the gay rights social engineering meme” in your typical over blown, superior, conspiracy based way is in my opinion just gay rights. I was rejecting your premise of the “homosexualisation of the western world aka gay rights social engineering meme” and offering the alternative cause of freedom from religion for the decrease in gay demonization and the resulting increase in gay rights.
Remember your 10.20 post stated If you don’t think social engineering exists then ask yourself why its only western nations that have been affected by this movement whereas the rest of the world isn’t. Doesn’t that show you that something is going on here that isn’t going on in the rest of the world? “ which is the specific section I quoted in my original post and the specific question I answered by stating freedom from religion which is something that “that isn’t going on in the rest of the world”
I think your arrogance is overwhelmingly displayed by your choice of abuse when your unique worldview is challenged. I made no reference to whether you personally liked, disliked or held any other opinion on gay people so any reference to your brother as some sort of qualifier for your opinions is unnecessary and gratuitous
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February 13, 2014 12:08am
Left Right and Centre

KB graveyard shift:

(1) Congratulations to ‘Campbell’ who won a 30K car by winning a game called ‘9 from 10’ on The Paul Henry Show. It was the eighth time the game had been played. The task was to name nine types of alcohol in ten seconds. A tall order to do anything much in ten seconds let alone win a car. This bloke – who said it was near his bedtime – and they were in a pub, so – I assume relaxed from having downed a couple (or more?) – very calmly and casually without a care in the world nailed it without any detectable outward appearance of effort or hurrying. Brilliant TV. I watched it again on ‘+1’. Brilliant.

(2) This is another miracle – someone on TV and a New Zealander that I didn’t want to disappear from my screen. A bloke who was patrolling a Waikato river to check that no-one is doing the dirty catching whitebait or fish illegally. He was clear, articulate, nobody’s fool, had common sense, the right attitude and just generally on to it. How refreshing. Unlike the ship inspector who spends his life carrying a clipboard. I’ve got an instinct that makes me wants to force feed a person their own clipboard. I don’t know what the answer to that is. Find a way to take it around with you without actually carrying it. You’d like to have your own clipboard – give it to them – and at the same time say ‘have a look at this clipboard mate, and you’ll get a surprise’. And when they look – SMACK!! Slap that clipboard in their mush. Now you’ve been ticked off.

(3) Someone needs to re-apply the KB weedkiller. A combative commenter who clearly valued their username enough at the time not to delete the account, back when the user was swearing off the joint as a lost cause, might be in town again. Part of me likes the entertainment of it, and everyone loves blowhard loud and proud puff pastries who come crawling back on their bellies, but for me absence has not made the heart grow fonder. The problem arises when you can’t stand the person but also can’t help but look at their work. Which might have intellectual merit. But you don’t want to have a beer with a cold nasty twat. And you still don’t want to have a beer with a very intelligent and insightful cold nasty twat. Computer says no.
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February 13, 2014 2:10am
Longknives

L,R & C- 2:10am?? Love the commitment to General Debate mate!
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February 13, 2014 2:38am
Left Right and Centre

Thanks man. On the graveyard shift yourself with a 2:38am post. I could be up any time. 2am could be 2pm in my world.
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February 13, 2014 8:00pm

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