General Debate 24 February 2014

February 24th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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140 Responses to “General Debate 24 February 2014”

  1. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    Tragic puzzle with no pieces that fit

    Especially if you don’t report on them. His long time neighbours say he was a devoted and loving father. Something happened to change that. What might that be?

    He was taking Zyban (Bupropion) for anti-smoking and during the breakup he went back onto it unbeknownst to his wife. Zyban according to a letter from his psychistrist can cause manic behaviour in rare cases. Livingston refers to that in his suspect statement taken for breaching his protection order by leaving a phone message explaining exactly that to his wife and apologising for his behaviour.

    So a potential lead contender for an explanation in this tragedy is:
    a) Livingston has a reaction to Zyban which causes him to start acting irrationally and psychotically
    b) His wife sees this and wants him to leave
    c) The court grants him only supervised access to his kids, which he lived for
    d) He finds out from a psychiatrist and a psychologist that Zyban is why he was behaving as he was and phones his wife to explain it
    e) She’s not interested in listening to him and neither are the police who prosecute

    I would have thought Fisher, the “Senior Journalist of the Year” would have reported on the following angles:
    a) What role did the family court system play given its deserved reputation for ignoring the parental rights of fathers in favour of mothers?
    b) What role did Zyban play in the initiation of Livingstone’s irrational behaviour and throughout?
    c) What role did the police play given its policy of enforcing protection orders with zero telerance?
    d) What role did the psychiatrist and psychologist play and why did they miss what they missed?
    e) What role did the mother and her parents play? Were the mother’s actions reasonable throughout the months leading up to the event and did her parents, who reportedly never liked Edward, encourage her to act as she did?

    Sure The Herald may potentially run into legal issues over the Zyban question but since that’s the lead candidate in the explanation stakes, I’m surprised the lawyers couldn’t find some way of mentioning it.

    No doubt the Coronial Inquest will delve into these questions except for the last one. Otherwise I’m afraid the deaths of Bradley, Ellen and Edward will indeed have been in vain. But I think the first, third and last questions I raise while emotional, is the key toward changing the systemic reactions which played a part in this tragedy. Because what needs to change is that systemic attitude in both the courts and in the police that in divorces, the mother is always the victim and the father is always the baddie. The picture I’ve concluded is that Edward was psychologically destroyed by firstly, becoming conditioned into psychosis by the drug and then step by step with system action after system action, which reflected nothing in the way of understanding his perspective and everything in the way of supporting the mothers, regardless of whether or not she was being in any way reasonable. And this generated intense frustration which eventually broke him.

    For those who don’t understand, please don’t hallucinate I’m excusing Edward’s behaviour, I’m merely trying to understand it. Also, just because the mother is of course the main victim of the tragic outcome, this doesn’t mean that examining her actions in the lead up should be out of bounds, thinking they should be because she suffered this tragedy doesn’t make any logical sense. It may make emotional sense, but it doesn’t make logical sense, not if you’re trying to do root cause analysis in order to change anything that can be changed to prevent any such future tragedies. Tragedies which not only include the murders but which also include the fallout suffered by fathers every single day all around the country by the systemic approach that has embedded itself in our approach to divorce proceedings where the mother is free to use the question of access to the kids as a WMD, fire at will, and the system not only lets her, no questions asked; it swings in behind her with the full force of all the power it has at its disposal – Police, “Justice” and CYFS.

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  2. iMP (2,385 comments) says:

    It was very sad about Charlotte Dawson. But that her life, and tragic death, have almost already passed fro our consciousness within 24-48 hours shows how empty and meaningless celebrity is in the modern world.

    Have a coffee with a friend today and hugs your kids. That’s what life is really all about.

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  3. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    No mention of Lecher Len on Tv1 last night . . . is there another left-wing conspiracy to get this mongrel a stay of execution? See the Herald covered it, but not Fairfax. He must not be allowed to remain, he is a disgusting specimen of embarrassment.
    Don’t forget the obese German criminal, he is getting a little sassy once more . . . must have some guarantees from Norman and Peters!

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  4. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    It has only just occurred to me that when Cunners said: “I’ve got the measure of John Key and he knows it” he actually meant “John Key is going to wipe the floor with me and he knows it.”

    My apologies to poor old Cunners. There was me thinking it was just some lame-arse effort at macho bluster by someone who seems intent on adopting some kind of tough guy persona to compensate for his inadequacies and inability to relate to other people who don’t circulate in his lofty realm, when in fact all he was doing was admitting he had just embarked upon mission impossible.

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  5. Colville (2,269 comments) says:

    I have just been reading Lefty reactions to last nights poll…a great way to start a week :-)

    De-nial is not a river in Africa !

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  6. Colville (2,269 comments) says:

    Davinci…Cunner meant to say ‘I have been measured and found wanting!”

    Question being who is next cab off the Lefty “leadership” rank to continue dragging labour down into the realms of 25% support?

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  7. Pete George (23,575 comments) says:

    Collated Standard reactions to the poll – The poll is rogue because…

    “Or those surveyed are making a concerted effort to lie, just to upset the pollsters”.

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  8. Bovver (173 comments) says:

    It all John Key’s, the MSM, right wing blogs and the stupid proletariat’s fault Colville, think of the children!

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  9. srylands (410 comments) says:

    This worth a read. The first post of the day at The Standard. An open letter. It is anonymous. It is well written.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-24022014/

    Dear Mr Cunliffe

    You have made much about bringing the lost 800,000 voters back to Labour. I was a former Labour activist driven out of the party because I refused to recant from Rogernomics and supported Mike Moore.

    The Labour Party I spent many hours in meetings and canvassing for was a broad church – small business owners rubbed shoulders with war vets widows, church going Catholic white men with a social conscience were as welcomed as feminist lesbian academics. Pro union sentiment was tempered with the knowledge that the capitalist system generated the profits that socially aware governments could use to help the 10% that capitalism can’t. There was a time when senior cabinet ministers and MPs understood this. When you were elected as leader I thought your time in the business world would help you see that rather than hate and envy John Key’s success that political leaders should encourage as many NZers as possible to emulate this level of success – in much the same way you have achieved in your life.

    Instead you have engaged in a left wing bidding war with the Greens that appeals to what is now left of the Labour Party – a harder left activist rump comprising unionists, beneficiaries, academics and the rainbow coalition – constituencies that on a good day comprise 15 – 20% of New Zealand’s population. You have deserted the vote rich centre ground – a place that a man of your background should’ve been comfortable in – more so that the all the three previous Labour leaders.

    You are articulate and understand the discipline of government and some of the intricacies of the market economy but rather than offer an aspirational vision of a vibrant New Zealand economy you plump for poorly thought out, market distorting but fleetingly populist government interventions that in your heart you must know will never achieve their stated goals.

    The path to power for Labour is not to pander to your left wing base and fight for the left side of the isle with the Greens but to restore Labour back to the broad church it once was when small business owners, white heterosexual males, people of faith and people who desire to succeed in business so that they can use their profits to do humanitarian things feel at home because I can tell you now that there is no place in modern Labour for such people.

    Sincerely yours

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  10. dirty harry (489 comments) says:

    Aint life in NZ grand…good bye liarbor , good bye commies…

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9755443/Labour-limping-Greens-in-freefall-poll

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  11. Colville (2,269 comments) says:

    srylands.
    Its a good letter.

    Labour is certianly no longer the place for white hetro working males!

    A good mate of mine , Wellington lawyer, is a staunch Labour supporter. (I hope he will awaken one day soon!)
    Says when he goes to a LP meeting and listens it makes him sick, he stands and says ‘I am wealthy, I employ staff and I value education and hard work and not benefits and throwing money at people” says he is almost spat on for talking like that.

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  12. EAD (1,087 comments) says:

    Over in the USA a recent gold medalist is described as having an “alternative lifestyle”. What was his alternative lifestyle you may ask? NBC was apparently surprised to learn that, at 23-years-old, David Wise is already a husband and father and at such a young age. To quote NBC “Wise has the lifestyle of an adult”

    http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/david-wises-alternative-lifestyle-leads-olympic-gold?ctx=olympic-journey

    He is an adult FFS. Normalising abnormality and discrediting societal norms is a well-honed tactic used by the Left to undermine the healthy traditions that civilize society. Bit by bit (progressively) every aspect of our successful society is being deliberately turned on it’s head. Looks like all the radical students in the 1960’s chanting ”Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western Civ has got to go!” weren’t kidding.

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  13. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    The path to power for Labour is not to pander to your left wing base and fight for the left side of the isle with the Greens

    Yes and that means recanting the poisonous policies of Dear Leader. She left Liarbore a smoking ruin and those now occupying the citadel owe her everything and they won’t leave without a fight. Their delusion that they are the progressives is just that. What they really are is what Hulun really is: vicious, nasty, venal, self-centred, power-hungry, ruthless and morally vacuous, all disguised behind a thin veneer of human wights.

    That leaves “small business owners, white heterosexual males, people of faith and people who desire to succeed in business so that they can use their profits to do humanitarian things,” not to mention blue collar workers, with no place to go.

    Looks like all the radical students in the 1960′s chanting ”Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western Civ has got to go!” weren’t kidding.

    Shame more and more are fooled by human wights as evidenced most recently by the gay marriage debacle and previously by anti-smacking. Expect the engineering to continue apace, while the gaggle of useful idiots grows and grows.

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  14. tedbear (145 comments) says:

    read in comments of a news item on recent polls –

    A man in a hot air balloon realised he was lost. He reduced altitude and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted, “Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don’t know where I am.” The woman below replied, “You’re in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground. You’re between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude.” “You must be a Labour voter,” said the balloonist. “I am,” replied the woman, “How did you know?” “Well,” answered the balloonist, “everything you told me is technically correct, but I’ve no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I’m still lost. Frankly, you’ve not been much help at all. If anything, you’ve delayed my trip.” The woman below responded, “You must be a Green Party supporter.” “I am,” replied the balloonist, “but how did you know?” “Well,” said the woman, “you don’t know where you are or where you’re going. You have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise, which you’ve no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it’s my fault.”

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  15. Pete George (23,575 comments) says:

    Greens have officially asked TV One and TV3 for a Green co-leader to be included in the main election debates alongside Key and (probably) Cunliffe.

    An irony was citing their “12 percent polling position puts them in a different league to the other smaller parties”. Their latest 8% is not far off NZ First’s 6.59% – in fact it’s within the margin of error of +/- 1.68%. If Greens are included Peters is sure to claim a place too.

    Peters aside there’s one issue that needs careful consideration – would it fair to have what would virtually be a two on one contest with Cunliffe+Norman/Turei up against Key?

    Greens want in on Key-Cunliffe debates

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  16. mandk (995 comments) says:

    @ Colville,
    Without wanting to come over all biblical, there is a warning about good being called evil, and evil good.
    But, to the point, the lefties seem to have completely lost their way. What was once a noble vision has degenerated into hate and envy.
    Socialism was once about giving people on Struggle Street a leg-up. It now depends on keeping them in their place so they can be vote fodder.

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  17. Tauhei Notts (1,715 comments) says:

    I have been surprised by the good press coverage Act has been getting.
    For many years they were the media’s whipping boys. The media hated them with a vengeance that was embarrassing to watch. I could never ever work out why they despised Act so much, so the surprise is the good coverage they now receive.
    Long may it continue.

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  18. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Colville

    I think that if they want to compete with Key himself, they have nobody. If they want someone to present as a credible “leader” they have nobody. Think about it:

    Robertson: disingenuous, oleaginous, backstabbing, dishonest billy bunter type. Not as oily as the gay dumpling but similar if you get my drift. Wouldn’t even acknowledge his bloke was in the pub.

    Little: dishonest, thuggish, thick as a plank – the classic caricature of the embittered union type and completely unlikeable = unmarketable

    Jones: dishonest/dodgy full of piss and wind, pompous/arrogant – can’t help himself – couldn’t even string together a meaningful complaint to the Commerce Commission – a bit of a wanker really

    Mallard: who?

    Goof: pfft

    The fish man: pfft

    Porcelain chops: vacuous drongo perpetually trotting out nothingness, never had a proper job in her life, still trying to appeal to the youth set when she is now part of the adult set – I think, to paraphrase Cunners, that the public at large have the measure of her, but she doesn’t know it. In 20 years time she will be looking back on her parliamentary “career” and wondering : “what happened?”

    Parker: weasel-ish sort of a fellow – bit odd and completely non-descript

    King: I can’t be objective here because I can’t shake the mental image of her snoring away upstairs in her red nightie, hair curlers in, blindfold on and earplugs in, whilst downstairs her lodger … well, let’s not go any further with that …

    I think one of the big problems they have is that the end of the tunnel is in sight in terms of the NZ econmy. I suspect that part of National’s wavering in support can be attributed to the fact that some people were doubting we would get there and their confidence in Key and English to do it was wavering. So I suspect that part of the improving trend is attributable to people having their confidence restored. So it may not necessarily be the improving economy per se, but the fact that Key and English are perceived as been right and having delivered.

    This presents an even bigger problem for liebour and the fwag waver because the public can now see that their confidence in Key’s and English’s view in the economy was warranted. With that looking to be under control, then people can see quite reasonably that by and large Key has delivered on what he promised 6 years ago, which is what got him elected, when throughout that time liebour and the aussie whinger have been calling bullshit on him. So now, when liebour and the whinger call bullshit, it’s just white noise to the populace and gets ignored. We can probably see this is already a concern to liebour and the melons in the increasingly deranged behaviour; eg, hopping up and down about Finlayson’s view on casual Friday, wussel sucking up to Dot Crim and wanting to do the dirty deal on extradition, Turei calling the race card on the jacket snipe. Low rent stuff and just completely unscrupulous/disgraceful on the part of Norman. Looks like the public are getting the measure of him at last.

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  19. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    ..the surprise is the good coverage they [ACT] now receive.

    They’ve found a new whipping boy Tauhei, that’s why.

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  20. Sofia (858 comments) says:

    “This poll, overall, shows Labour continuing to make steady progress,” [Cunliffe] said. “There is still a high level of volatility early in election year between this and other polls.
    ________
    Labour remained steady on 34 per cent
    Labour leader David Cunliffe suffered from a lack of exposure in the last month, dropping two points in the preferred prime minister stakes to 10 per cent.

    Spot the lie? … steady progress, standing still
    Admittedly it is not as big a lie as that fucking whooper Winston told about Huka Lodge, but they all add up.

    Recently, Cunliffe has had to contend with whispers of dissatisfaction from within his party. However, he told Fairfax Media he has looked into this and insisted his caucus are behind him.
    See? – there’s another one :-) QED

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  21. Pete George (23,575 comments) says:

    ..the surprise is the good coverage they now receive.

    Something different so it’s of interest. If ACT don’t make any bad mistakes or say things that make them look stupid and keep their lawyers out of politics they should continue to receive reasonable coverage.

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  22. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    Looks like the public are getting the measure of him [Wussel] at last.

    I’d like to think so dvm but unfortunately I think that once you jump the shark into Gween territory the roaring mentalism that lives there is so intense it engulfs one’s mind like a Force Ten combined with the biggest whirlpool ever recorded inside a black hole big enough to swallow the entire Universe.

    Escaping from that is no easy thing and it would be kinder for humanity really if the poor people so engulfed were simply torn asunder like what happens in a real black hole, rather than only having their minds ripped away from reality, where the rest of us live.

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  23. J Bloggs (241 comments) says:

    EAD: it’s only an “Alternative” lifestyle relative to extreme wintersports competitors. As the article points out, he is the exception to the unmarried, globetrotting, party clique that is the stereotype. So, relative to the norm WITHIN THAT SUBGROUP (i.e. young wintersports competitors) – then yes he is “alternative”. This is not to say that this is a bad thing.

    As the article it self states: “Wise is, well, wise”

    Something many people his age could well benefit from emulating.

    Thanks for the link

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  24. Pete George (23,575 comments) says:

    Recently, Cunliffe has had to contend with whispers of dissatisfaction from within his party. However, he told Fairfax Media he has looked into this and insisted his caucus are behind him.

    No Sofia, that one may be accurate – behind him eyes rolling, jeering, fingers reaching for the daggers.

    Is there any truth to the rumour that Trevor Mallard was out fishing for snapper in the weekend?

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  25. Odakyu-sen (655 comments) says:

    “Labour is certianly no longer the place for white hetro working males!”

    Labour: no place for the working man.

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  26. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Srylands-
    The absolute best part about that letter (and there are several good points) is the response from a Mr Philip Ure below..
    “angry white man..” ..”rightwing pipe-dreams..” etc etc

    The poor fellow seems genuinely terrified that Labour might finally wake up and stop paying bludgers to smoke weed all day!

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  27. mandk (995 comments) says:

    @ Sofia

    This bit made me laugh: “Recently, Cunliffe has had to contend with whispers of dissatisfaction from within his party. However, he told Fairfax Media he has looked into this and insisted his caucus are behind him”

    What, like Julius Caesar’s caucus was behind him?

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  28. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    As the article it self states: “Wise is, well, wise” Something many people his age could well benefit from emulating.

    The root cause of Wise’s maturity and behaviour relative to his peers is in this sentence from the article:

    He also attends church regularly and says he could see himself becoming a pastor a little later down the road.

    Glad to see you Pete advocating a religious life for the benefits it brings. A bit surprised given your past comments on religious topics, but very gladdened nevertheless.

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  29. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    Dime is a bit over hearing people say “she should have just logged out” re charlotte dawson.

    Im not sure how many of you have been around people with mental illness or in the middle of a breakdown. Ive been around a few. They all seem to have something they are hung up on. something simple that a healthy person would just say “whats the big deal?”. but mid melt down it means everything to them. sometimes its the trigger or whatever. im no shrink.

    but from what i can tell, the thing she was hung up on was social media. it would not be easy getting her off those things unless she was in full time care.

    Dimes 2 cents from afar.

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  30. Manolo (13,783 comments) says:

    The Messiah’s long memory. Payback time: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/dinesh-dsouza-speculates-on-retribution-vindictive-obama-sees-critics-as-enemies/

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  31. Pete George (23,575 comments) says:

    Glad to see you Pete advocating a religious life for the benefits it brings.

    ?? If that’s referring to me I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve acknowledged in the past (a number of times) that religion works fine for some people but I don’t recall advocating a religious life.

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  32. James Stephenson (2,180 comments) says:

    would it fair to have what would virtually be a two on one contest with Cunliffe+Norman/Turei up against Key?

    Why am I reminded of the bar fight scene in the Burt Reynolds classic “Hooper”?

    “6 against 12, looks like it’s a little uneven – you guys are going to have to go back to Houston and get some more guys…”

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  33. EAD (1,087 comments) says:

    @ Reid/Tahuei Notts – when you take a view of where we are in our short history, we have never needed a coherent Libertarian party more than we do now. All I see around me is a massively growing state and a coordinated attack on our liberties which few appreciate just where this trains final destination is.

    We need to look fundamentally at the structure of our governance and the relationship between the state and the individual. Act are philosophically and intellectually best placed to do this and already are getting this message across very well.

    http://www.act.org.nz/?q=posts/on-plain-packaging-individual-choice-and-censorship

    We need to look at the role of panic in our society; how terrors are described, multiplied and invented by groups both inside and outside the official governance structure, with the purpose of forcing us into ever more draconian legislative straitjackets. Terror of terrorists, terror of environmental disaster, terror of public health crises, terror of smoke, terror of drinking, of drugs, of paedophiles and predators, the list goes on and on. This constant state of panic has driven the destruction of our most ancient liberties.

    Let’s start looking at why such panic exists and whence it comes. And let’s look at the frightening merging of the State and the notionally Private and Civic sectors; at panics invented by pressure groups, transformed into legislation by faceless committees or under “conscience votes” where there was no mandate from the governed.

    There is so much wrong. But we must start to correct it, before it destroys us. 1984 should have been a satire, not an instruction manual on governance.

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  34. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    …from what i can tell, the thing she was hung up on was social media

    I agree dime. It appears she was hung up on it.

    IMO, social media isn’t the problem and what people write on it is not the problem either. The problem is how people treat what they read on it. It’s the old lesson about living life: it’s not what happens to you it’s how you treat what happens to you.

    Kids kill themselves due to cyber-bullying because when you’re a kid obsessed as we all are at that age with our peers, one doesn’t have the emotional or intellectual maturity to deal properly with peer criticism properly, as it should be treated, which is: who cares what they think. Maybe peer criticism is more rife than it used to be and maybe it isn’t. What possibly doesn’t help when it comes to kids is that social media encourages people to record their every little thought. Where it previously took an effort to verbalise something to a kid you didn’t like and many thoughts were never expressed, with social media, you think it, you type it, you click send all. (The vacuousness this phenomena is thereby creating in people is appalling, but that’s another topic.)

    I guess if you’re a media personality part of your professional skillset is building and maintaining public opinion of yourself. If that takes a hit then I guess you might feel as if you’re not competent at your chosen career. You don’t have to feel like that but you might and if you internalise that and start telling yourself you’re a loser, that’s a road to nowhere but pain. I would have thought a mature adult would have more coping skills than to take the opinions of others who don’t know you on board, I certainly take nothing on board from people here who don’t know me from Adam but seem to think they do. And maybe it wasn’t just that which did it. Maybe it was just the apparent fact she couldn’t score a new role, she thought she had nowhere to go, maybe she thought the reason she couldn’t score a new role was because of what people were saying about her on social media.

    Who knows. But I think blaming social media isn’t really getting to the root. It’s using it in the right way, but I tell you what, if aliens are monitoring the planetary emissions, then the avalanche of social media comments in the last five-ten years would not be reflecting well on the intelligence level of the human species, would it.

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  35. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    EAD @ 9.55, very good thoughts. Two links you may be interested in:

    The Power Of Nightmares doco: http://dotsub.com/view/2019dcbc-330c-4edb-a463-39a63492f65b

    Social control: http://www.unique-design.net/library/control.html

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  36. cha (4,022 comments) says:

    Alice Herz-Sommer has died.

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.575973

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  37. ciaron (1,434 comments) says:

    Heh, just saw a domestic cleaning company car, A Woman’s Touch

    :)

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  38. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    Did anyone who saw this photo in yesterday’s Herald think what I thought?

    Transgender boy walks with pride – http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11208173

    Which was: with parents who look like that, what chance has this 7 y.o. baby ever had of making his mind up objectively about his sexuality, and what sort of twisted, mental, broken system do we have in this country even to entertain this proposition in one so young, let alone when those parents walk in through the door?

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  39. EAD (1,087 comments) says:

    Thanks Reid, I’m guessing you’ve “taken the red pill” to use the phrase made famous by the movie, The Matrix to better understand the world in which we live.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100171475/red-pill-blue-pill/

    I read your article on social control and it echoes my observations as well. The part about media defining the issues and molding public opinion by presenting the issues that get debated, discussed and analysed is oh so true but few people realise or want to believe they are being manipulated. That is the reason people are turning more and more to alternative media such as this blog to get a differing view. If the audience of that particular website is economically and politically literate, philosophically and historically aware you will always get a more nuanced version of events from the comments section and something much closer to the truth. 7 Sharp is the epitome of poor quality of main stream news reporting closely followed by the Sunday Star Times.

    If you’ve got 5 minutes, have a read of this article by the renown Murray Rothbard who uses a fable to shine the light on the nature of governments.
    http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard22.html

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  40. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Sweet Jesus! (Reid’s 10:35am)
    So they are pumping that 7 year old full of drugs because ‘it’ apparently wants to change gender?
    One look at the bloody photo and you can see where the confusion and problem lies…

    *This is so fucking horrifying I reckon it is just about worthy of it’s own thread DPF!

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  41. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    Reid – messed up eh!

    “”Even though I’m a real little kid I can make up my own mind. I’m little but I can speak for myself if I want to,” said Ben. “I want to help others. One reason I do it is because it’s fun and I like it and another reason is to help other people.”

    yeah, that didnt sound coached.

    One look at the mother should be enough to suggest there are issues.

    Im also curious if the parents are together.. wondering if the parents are gay and the child is a test tube baby..

    “Rebecca Jones said a deal with a local production company to chart the extraordinary journey fell flat when funding was rejected by New Zealand on Air because it was “an unknown journey”.”

    but its fine, its the 7 year old tomboy changes HER mind when shes 9, im sure she will be strong enough to tell her parents and the production company and it will all be stopped. sweet mother of fuck.

    cue weihana to tell us we are all wrong etc

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  42. Tauhei Notts (1,715 comments) says:

    EAD at 9.55.
    The silly panic I recall was when that silly bint who used to carry Helen’s hand bag around went on and on about micro chipping dogs. It put all dog owners (of whom I am not one) to unnecessary expense. And what did it achieve? Two thirds of three quarters of sweet f.a.

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  43. ShawnLH (5,128 comments) says:

    “what chance has this 7 y.o. baby ever had of making his mind up objectively about his sexuality,”

    None. This is child abuse plain and simple.

    “and what sort of twisted, mental, broken system do we have in this country even to entertain this proposition in one so young, let alone when those parents walk in through the door?”

    The twisted, mental, broken system is called social liberalism.

    Of course, if you oppose this kind of child abuse, you’ll be accused of wanting to “turn back the clocK” and “take us back to the Victorian age” and other mindless liberal mantras.

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  44. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    Anyone know what’s up with Dr Brian Edwards. He hasn’t updated his blog in over 3 months?

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  45. dirty harry (489 comments) says:

    “Transgender boy walks with pride”

    Hulun would be proud.

    Sick sick sick..

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  46. Pete George (23,575 comments) says:

    Dean – he ‘retired’ from blogging last year then made a small comeback but my guess is that he has retired again.

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  47. cha (4,022 comments) says:

    You couldn’t make this up.

    Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson is involved in a legal battle over fracking. The weird part is, he’s on the side that’s against it.

    [Tillerson] and his neighbors had filed suit to block the tower, saying it is illegal and would create “a noise nuisance and traffic hazards,” in part because it would provide water for use in hydraulic fracturing. Fracking, which requires heavy trucks to haul and pump massive amounts of water, unlocks oil and gas from dense rock and has helped touch off a surge in U.S. energy output.

    http://www.salon.com/2014/02/21/exxon_ceo_joins_anti_fracking_lawsuit_after_drilling_threatens_his_property_value/

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  48. gump (1,649 comments) says:

    @dime

    “Im also curious if the parents are together.. wondering if the parents are gay and the child is a test tube baby..”

    ————————-

    It has been reported elsewhere that they already had four boys and this was their fifth child.

    That suggests that there’s been a lot of test tubes or that you’re full of shit.

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  49. wiseowl (895 comments) says:

    Reid @8.03
    Excellent post.

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  50. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    It has been reported elsewhere that they already had four boys and this was their fifth child.

    Regardless gump the real question remains. Why is anyone entertaining what a 7 year old thinks about this subject? Since when have 7 year olds been properly equipped to think this thing through? And how the hell did a 7 year old come to this conclusion in the first place, when every other 7 year old is simply playing around like they were 7?

    Edit: Cheers wiseowl, 4 people didn’t seem to think so but what do they know? :)

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  51. b1gdaddynz (279 comments) says:

    Pete George Said

    “Peters aside there’s one issue that needs careful consideration – would it fair to have what would virtually be a two on one contest with Cunliffe+Norman/Turei up against Key?”

    It wouldn’t be fair…perhaps if it was Cunliffe + Norman + Turei + Peters versus Key then they might have a slim chance :-)

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  52. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    “you’re full of shit”

    idiot. I said “im wondering”. doesnt really make one full of shit..

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  53. Duxton (651 comments) says:

    @EAD at 8.34am – I took something different from that article. I think the writer was referring to the difference between his lifestyle and that followed by many of his peers – ie, partying, self-centredness, etc. In a roundabout way, the writer was bemoaning the fact that young men who are well grounded and focussed on their families is no longer the norm.

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  54. Rowan (2,398 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/9755328/Dawson-death-Twitter-criticised

    Hopefully trolls like Kent Parker and Whale might learn something about the consequences of posting online defamation before posting abusive crap on their blogs, In Kents case probably not and but hopefully he might after being bankrupted.

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  55. gump (1,649 comments) says:

    @Reid

    “Regardless gump the real question remains. Why is anyone entertaining what a 7 year old thinks about this subject? Since when have 7 year olds been properly equipped to think this thing through? And how the hell did a 7 year old come to this conclusion in the first place, when every other 7 year old is simply playing around like they were 7?”

    ——————————-

    One of my best friends from childhood was born a male but started identifying as female at around eight years old. Her well-meaning parents and their doctors told her parents to insist on male gender presentation and to reinforce male behaviours. She suffered terribly and hanged herself on a wardrobe rail when she was fourteen.

    While I personally think it’s distasteful and possibly damaging for this other child to have been presented to the media, I take issue with the assertion that such children don’t exist.

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  56. stephieboy (3,109 comments) says:

    Manolo (12,247 comments) says:
    February 24th, 2014 at 9:38 am

    The manic obsession continues re ” The Messiah.”

    Meanwhile more background on Texan Republican Congressman Joe Barton, noted Climate Denier. Some of his credentials so far,
    1. Noted advocate for the US Cigarette Industry lobby who has agreed with them that Cigarette smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer and related diseases.
    2. The flood recounted in the Bible provides ample proof that there is no climate change.
    3. Joe initially apologized to BP for the Compensation payout to those affected by the Gulf of Mexico oil spill but later withdrew them . Apparently an embarrassed GOP forced him to retract.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/23/joe-barton-touts-a-defens_n_622582.html

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  57. stephieboy (3,109 comments) says:

    Rowan (1,613 comments) says:
    February 24th, 2014 at 12:18 pm

    A rather low life cheap shot from you trying to capitalize on the tragedy of Charlotte Dawson’s passing.!
    Nothing at all surprises coming from the likes of you. Now was it you who described me as a “child fiddler.” here in recent times.?

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  58. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11208984

    “My name is Keisha Castle-Hughes and I am here to get some cheap publicity and sympathy”.*

    technically she said something else but you get the idea.

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  59. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    “…..Regardless gump the real question remains. Why is anyone entertaining what a 7 year old thinks about this subject?…”

    Very true Reid.

    A seven year old boy says he’s really a girl – and every health professional in the country is now expected to reply “Yes you are.”

    Well he’s not – and never ever will be. It’s impossable. He simply wants to pretend he is one.

    Pretending is what all kids do – from being soliders and police officers – to some pretending they are girls or boys.

    All health professionals should act their age.

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  60. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    “Dime is a bit over hearing people say “she should have just logged out” re charlotte dawson. ”

    Too much money, too much time

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  61. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    “Aint life in NZ grand…good bye liarbor , good bye commies…”

    Just gotta keep switching parties to keep the mainstream distabilised.

    Third term parties are so arrogant. That’s why they don’t get a fourth term.

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  62. cha (4,022 comments) says:

    When the chairman of the American Enterprise Institute writes something like this then there’s a problem.

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/be-open-handed-toward-your-brothers-1/

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  63. edhunter (547 comments) says:

    How long has Wellington been hosting a “Round the Bays” fun run? And couldn’t they think of their name? When I think of Round the Bays I immediately think of Auckland’s iconic event that’s been running for over 40yrs. OK I’m an Aucklander but this reeks cashing in on the name of a more famous event.

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  64. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    One of my best friends from childhood was born a male but started identifying as female at around eight years old. Her well-meaning parents and their doctors told her parents to insist on male gender presentation and to reinforce male behaviours. She suffered terribly and hanged herself on a wardrobe rail when she was fourteen.

    While I personally think it’s distasteful and possibly damaging for this other child to have been presented to the media, I take issue with the assertion that such children don’t exist.

    gump my gay brother told me he started having suspicions about himself around the same age. This doesn’t mean he was ready to think the full implications of it.

    No-one is asserting such children don’t exist. I didn’t above and no-one else here has so why you would hallucinate that I have no idea.

    What everyone but you is saying is a seven year old is not equipped to make the choices she is making just are they are not equipped to operate a vehicle which is by comparison much less complicated.

    I think the fact children are now more aware that gay and TS people are a category is a good thing. Because if you’re one of them that knowledge would no doubt be helpful. The fact your mate killed himself because of the advice and treatment he received then is not a reflection of the treatment he would receive now and anyway, I don’t see that has anything to do with this case.

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  65. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    G20 agrees global growth boost

    Finance chiefs from the 20 largest economies have agreed to implement policies that will boost the world economy by more than $2 trillion over the coming five years

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/9755370/G20-agrees-global-growth-boost

    So we can see that financial bosses have been stifling economies as well. Via central banks especially.

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  66. iMP (2,385 comments) says:

    So, MSM reports Charlotte Dawson was “just human.” What else would she have been?

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  67. J Bloggs (241 comments) says:

    iMP (2,024 comments) says:
    February 24th, 2014 at 2:12 pm

    So, MSM reports Charlotte Dawson was “just human.” What else would she have been?

    One of these alien lizard people that all these OIA requests are about? :)

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  68. Fletch (6,395 comments) says:

    I think Charlotte Dawson’s death had more to do with depression over her abortion than anything else. At least, that is what led to her depression.

    http://newsbusters.org/node/70452

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  69. Fletch (6,395 comments) says:

    Comment by a reader in a thread over at Brietbart about George Takei slamming proposed new ‘anti-gay’ laws in Arizona, and comparing them with Jim Crow.

    Homosexuality used to be “The love that dare not speak its name.” now it’s “The love that absolutly will not shut the fcuk up.”

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  70. muggins (3,787 comments) says:

    Rowan,
    As a rabid David Bain supporter you will be well aware that another Bain supporter who has a blog which you have posted on has called some of those who disagree with him paedophiles and witches .
    Your boorish and abusive behaviour on kiwiblog has been noted by all and you are the last person who should be commenting on others who have made comments that you believe to be defamatory seeing as you make many what could be considered defamatory comments yourself.
    Also could I suggest you get over your Kent Parker obsession.

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  71. Scott Chris (6,139 comments) says:

    Well he’s not – and never ever will be. It’s impossable. He simply wants to pretend he is one.

    This from a man who calls himself Harriet. Oh the ironing! (yes ‘ironing’ laj, lest that one fly over your head too)

    But for the record 7 years old is way to young to give informed consent to begin medical intervention imo and as Gump says, publicising this child’s gender identity issues is highly irresponsible of both her parents and the media given the context of present society.

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  72. Scott Chris (6,139 comments) says:

    *correction – way too young

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  73. gump (1,649 comments) says:

    @Scott Chris

    “But for the record 7 years old is way to young to give informed consent to begin medical intervention imo and as Gump says, publicising this child’s gender identity issues is highly irresponsible of both her parents and the media given the context of present society.”

    ——————————

    I don’t believe that medical intervention would be warranted until much later on.

    To be honest, I just hope that the adults involved will listen to the kid and treat them with respect. I also really hope that somebody will explain to the parents that the glare of publicity is entirely inappropriate and potentially damaging (and that the NZ media refrains from further coverage).

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  74. Chuck Bird (4,890 comments) says:

    “Hopefully trolls like Kent Parker and Whale might learn something about the consequences of posting online defamation before posting abusive crap on their blogs, In Kents case probably not and but hopefully he might after being bankrupted.”

    @Rowan

    Did Kent Parker comment about Charlotte Dawson? If not it would appear you are trying to score points about this tragedy.

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  75. Scott Chris (6,139 comments) says:

    I also really hope that somebody will explain to the parents that the glare of publicity is entirely inappropriate and potentially damaging

    Quite. I know from reading the article that the child has had psychiatric assessment so surely something as simple as the child wanting to emulate his/her four older brothers can’t have been overlooked…. (I understand that the child in question is biologically female)

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  76. Ryan Sproull (7,153 comments) says:

    I think Charlotte Dawson’s death had more to do with depression over her abortion than anything else. At least, that is what led to her depression.

    Do you now.

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  77. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Rowan- Your howls of outrage for ‘poor’ deceased Charlotte Dawson and those ‘evil’ Twitter trolls are rather hypocritical, considering you regularly accuse anyone with a differing opinion on the Bain saga from you as being “Paedophiles” etc

    And I am sick to death of hearing about ‘Poor Charlotte being bullied to death’ etc etc
    As a ‘socialite’ this woman made her living flapping around the society pages and desperately trying to bombard any form of media she could. She craved any publicity she could get (even ‘tweeted’ photos from her Hospital bed following her last meltdown) in her false world of bullshit artists and Society pages ‘A List’ wannabes..
    A tribute from one of her fellow ‘socialites’ in today’s paper confirms she was still boozing and partying (drugging?) up hard right to the very end but didn’t have two pennies to rub together- Her whole life was one rather pathetic sham.
    If she was burning out she could quite easily have slowed down, retreated from the limelight and partying and (shock,horror!) got a real job like the rest of us grown-ups do- but that might necessitate giving up the toy boy boyfriends, the luxury apartments and the ‘sweetie daahling’ socialite circuit!
    You make your own choices in life. Her choice to never grow up and join the real world likely contributed to her fragile Mental state far more than any nasty online comments did.
    To be honest I had more sympathy when Marius the Giraffe died.

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  78. Rowan (2,398 comments) says:

    “A rather low life cheap shot from you trying to capitalize on the tragedy of Charlotte Dawson’s passing.!
    Nothing at all surprises coming from the likes of you. Now was it you who described me as a “child fiddler.” here in recent times.?”

    Stephie
    I am being serious and the post was about online defamation and the consequences not another Bain discussion, Look at the tragic consequences of the online abuse of Charlotte Dawson, you think you are big and tough by hiding behind a pseudonym and posting crap from behind a computer screen.
    A simpleton like you would of course see it as ‘capitalising on the tragedy’, you are pathetic!

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  79. Rowan (2,398 comments) says:

    “You make your own choices in life. Her choice to never grow up and join the real world likely contributed to her fragile Mental state far more than any nasty online comments did.”

    LK
    You are right, and you also live with the consequences of those choices, it is very sad that Charlotte chose to end her life but the online abuse (along with everything mentioned by you) was a contributing factor to her suicide.
    The consequences of Kent Parkers defamation won’t be someone topping themselves, it will rather be him very likely being bankrupted, he dug his own grave and deserves everything he gets.

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  80. Chuck Bird (4,890 comments) says:

    Rowan, what has Kent Parker got to do with the sad suicide of someone suffering from clinical depression?

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  81. Rowan (2,398 comments) says:

    Drhh Chuck
    Do the words online defamation mean anything to you? now how might this relate to Kent Parker? lets see if you can join the dots here.

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  82. Rowan (2,398 comments) says:

    Muggins

    Take your view and stick up your proverbial. You are the most pathetic childish twat on here and if you think I am ever going to take anything you ever post here seriously then you are deluded (but we already know that don’t we)

    [DPF: Tone it down]

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  83. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    “…………..I think Charlotte Dawson’s death had more to do with depression over her abortion than anything else. At least, that is what led to her depression.

    Do you now…………..”

    She said so herself.

    On the kiwiblog thread RIP Dawson, someone put up the link to an aussie news site and she was quoted as saying so.

    Something like “that’s when I noticed the change, that’s when I started to feel depressed.”

    She had the abortion because the birth would’ve coincided with the ‘father’ being at the olympic games. – she said that also. She basicly stated that she regretted it.

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  84. stigie (1,198 comments) says:

    Rosie at the Strandard says…..

    Just to say, as a way on explanation for my abandonment, I’m not really interested in engaging with the likes of Dale, confused, BM, etc and especially not SSlands (and there’s others I can’t think of at the mo). I find it fruitless and annoying and have to deal with folks of that RW ilk enough IRL without being drawn into their world on line as well. I find that giving them oxygen by replying only encourages them. I visit this site for purposes of education, political pulse checking and to find a sense of solidarity.

    In saying that I do enjoy reading the witty retorts thrown their way and appreciate that others may want to engage in sport with these types. Sadly despite all the intelligent conversation directed their way, they haven’t learnt a thing over the years.

    These people over at the Strandard are on a completely different planet to us. They defy common sense !

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  85. Ryan Sproull (7,153 comments) says:

    She said so herself.

    On the kiwiblog thread RIP Dawson, someone put up the link to an aussie news site and she was quoted as saying so.

    Something like “that’s when I noticed the change, that’s when I started to feel depressed.”

    She had the abortion because the birth would’ve coincided with the ‘father’ being at the olympic games. – she said that also. She basicly stated that she regretted it.

    Interesting. Thanks, Harriet.

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  86. Gulag1917 (923 comments) says:

    Lorde’s Suppressed Grammy Award acceptance speech (Full Transcript)
    http://snoopman.wordpress.com/2014/02/06/lordes-suppressed-grammy-award-acceptance-speech-full-transcript-26-january-2014/

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  87. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    For those who doubt Soros’ involvement in Ukraine.

    http://rt.com/politics/leading-party-soros-prepares/

    How long are the useful idiots going to take before they get that none of the ‘spontaneous grassroots uprisings’ we’ve seen since they started with the colour revolutions in the 90’s, have been anything other than regime-change operations? What sort of mental allows decade after decade to pass before they finally wake up?

    What, about the CIA evolving from the OSS which purpose was regime change, don’t they understand? The CIA has never been an intelligence agency, that’s just cover for what they really do and always has been.

    Duh.

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  88. Rowan (2,398 comments) says:

    What a performance from SA in demolishing Australia in Test 2, Steyn was awesome and that spell of his really decided the match.
    For test 3 Aussie need to bring back Shane Watson and IMO for Shaun Marsh, despite his first test hundred he now has something like 6 ducks in his last 7 tests including the king pair in this one. He needs to go if Aussie are to turn it around in test 3. Go SA.

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  89. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    Further to previous:

    http://tomatobubble.com/id463.html

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  90. Fletch (6,395 comments) says:

    She said so herself.

    Do you now…………..”

    Interesting. Thanks, Harriet. etc

    Um, yeh, I put a link underneath my comment above about Dawson that linked to about 3 stories in Aussie newspapers about her depression likely stemming from her abortion.

    http://newsbusters.org/node/70452

    Click, people, CLICK.

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  91. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    I’m sure you’ll like this Fletch:

    http://www.principia-scientific.org/michael-mann-faces-bankruptcy-as-his-courtroom-climate-capers-collapse.html

    And in the who’da thunk dept:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/girl-scout-sells-117-boxes-of-cookies-outside-green-cross-medical-marijuana-clinic-9146204.html

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  92. Reid (16,473 comments) says:

    And in the “who controls your mind” dept:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Q3C-rSx6XrQ/UwjCXxR1iyI/AAAAAAAAC_A/PlFCIj9AVS4/s1600/Who-Controls-Your-Mind.jpg

    And they got Rupert Murdoch wrong, his mother’s Jewish, so he’s not a goy.

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  93. Ryan Sproull (7,153 comments) says:

    Um, yeh, I put a link underneath my comment above about Dawson that linked to about 3 stories in Aussie newspapers about her depression likely stemming from her abortion.

    http://newsbusters.org/node/70452

    Click, people, CLICK.

    I read the blog post you linked to, Fletch. It’s just that given the volume of abortions being performed every year, the presence of clinical depression in people who have not had abortions, and the lack of vast numbers of women committing suicide all the time, there’s no real reason to talk about Dawson’s abortion or speculate about its links to the depression that ultimately killed her.

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  94. Ryan Sproull (7,153 comments) says:

    And in the “who controls your mind” dept:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Q3C-rSx6XrQ/UwjCXxR1iyI/AAAAAAAAC_A/PlFCIj9AVS4/s1600/Who-Controls-Your-Mind.jpg

    And they got Rupert Murdoch wrong, his mother’s Jewish, so he’s not a goy.

    What the fuck, dude.

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  95. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Reid

    ….”And in the who’da thunk dept:”…..

    Respectfully…..so bloody what? :)

    but your 6.38pm link gives real food for thought.

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  96. Pete George (23,575 comments) says:

    Jaslecta @YourNZ – May make pregnant drinking illegal

    Britain’s Court of Appeal is due to hear a landmark case that could make it illegal to drink excessively while pregnant.

    This is before an appeals court in the UK right now. No doubt foetal alcohol syndrome needs addressing. However is it best to label and prosecute expecting mothers’ who are drinking alcohol excessively as criminals? There are many aspects to consider.

    Is the state responsible to educate women about alcohol consumption while pregnant. Many will say it’s already been done and the ones that would need it the most are not wanting to know or take any notice of it.

    If one would argue that excessive alcohol use is illegal there would have to be a debate about how much is “excessive”. Once a solution is found then what to do with a woman that has consumed copious amounts of alcohol. To stamp her a criminal would it stop her consuming?

    Do “they” have other methods in mind for these unfortunate women to prevent them from drinking, maybe jail them until they have given birth? What about forced abortions once it has been proven that a pregnant woman has been drinking excessively? Nanny state?

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  97. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    One thing that would reduce the suicide rate would be if we readopted the old fashioned concept that suicides
    were regarded as cowards who took the easy way out when confronted with the trials and tribulations
    of life we all face. (Remember, it used to be against the law.)

    The concept that people are forced into suicide by others bullying them is bullshit.

    The more that sort of bullshit is promoted the more some people will feel justified in topping themselves,
    especially the younger and more impressional ones.

    These days you may be forgiven for assuming that suicide was the natural result of being bullied if you
    suck up the puke in the popular media.

    Anyone wanna argue the toss on that fact ?

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  98. Pete George (23,575 comments) says:

    There’s many reasons for suicide, bullying being just one of them. Calling victims of bullying cowards is very insensitive and ignorant.

    I don’t think killing yourself is an easy way out, it is a huge act to consider doing.

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  99. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    bereal

    How any given person will react to a given set of circumstances is highly dependent on their internal make up. At one extreme, suicide will make sense…..at the other extreme a person under stress will arm up & hunt down whoever he/she thinks is causing their problems.

    There’s no such thing as one solution fits all.

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  100. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Sidney has a problem with premature ejaculation, so he pays
    a visit to a sex shop for a remedy.

    The sales assistant hands him a little purple can and says, “This is
    Stay-Hard spray… put on a little and you can go all night!”

    Excited, Sidney takes it home, stashes it in the garage
    on a shelf, and waits eagerly for bedtime.

    Later that night, he sprays some on his member and then
    goes upstairs to his wife. To his utter disappointment,
    however, the remedy seems to make him orgasm quicker
    than ever.

    The next day, Sidney returns to the sex shop, angrily
    slammed the can down on the counter, and snaps,
    “This stuff makes me worse than before!”

    Upon reading the label, the assistant asks, “I don’t suppose
    your hid this stuff on the shelf in your garage, did you?”

    “Yeah, so?”

    “You must have grabbed the wrong can, sir… this is Easy-Off.”

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  101. cha (4,022 comments) says:

    but your 6.38pm link gives real food for thought.

    Guillermo Fawkes is a Catholic!.
    /

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  102. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    ….”Guillermo Fawkes is a Catholic!”….

    The plot thickens! :)

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  103. wat dabney (3,769 comments) says:

    One thing that would reduce the suicide rate would be if we readopted the old fashioned concept that suicides were regarded as cowards

    And we might also tackle obesity through mockery and name calling.

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  104. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    “…..And we might also tackle obesity through mockery and name calling….”

    DPF might say it works – as the fuckwits over at the Standard used to refer to him as the penguin!

    Mean bastards. :cool:

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  105. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Pete George,
    dunno if you missed my point on purpose or not but.
    i never called victims of suicide cowards you drong.

    Read what i said again and try for a more cogent response. (you refferring to them as ‘victims’ of suicide illustrates
    how silly some are becomming these days)

    nasska,
    you are correct, but what i am saying is that if suicide becomes acceptable as a reaction
    to bullying or depression then it will make more sense to more people. These days there is little stigma associated
    with it. “Oh, he was depressed”. or “Oh he was driven to it by bullies.” This is bullshit that is becomming
    popular these days. Even if he was depressed or bullied the thought that he would bring dishonour upon his family
    used to dissuade him. (People get over depression and are then glad that they didn’t kill themselves )
    People who were bullied do get over it and go on to contribute to society.

    There used to be a dishonour associated with the act.
    It used to be a stigma that attached to the suicides family.
    That was a deterrent.
    These days it seems it’s almost OK
    That is my point.

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  106. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    bereal

    I see where you’re coming from. There was an article in the local paper not long back where a youth councillor reckoned that certain kids, especially those from dysfunctional families learnt the wrong things from seeing any suicides amongst their peers. Apparently the kids saw the attention & adoration the departed received & consciously or subconsciously saw the grieving as their moment of attention or glory.

    I do remember back when suicide was rarely talked about & anyone who did take their own life was posthumously ostracised & their funerals boycotted by many.

    I’m not sure that this was good either…..I doubt that there is a right or wrong answer.

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  107. mandk (995 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull @ 7.01

    You might like to have a look at this:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8734378/Abortion-increases-risk-of-mental-health-problems-new-research-finds.html

    From the report:

    “Professor Coleman’s study was based on an analysis of 22 separate projects which analysed the experiences of a total of 877,000 women, of whom 163,831 had had an abortion.
    It said: “Results indicate quite consistently that abortion is associated with moderate to highly increased risks of psychological problems subsequent to the procedure.
    “Overall, the results revealed that women who had undergone an abortion experienced an 81 per cent increased risk of mental health problems, and nearly 10 per cent of the incidence of mental health problems were shown to be directly attributable to abortion.”
    The study said that abortion was linked with a 34 per cent greater chance of anxiety disorders, and 37 per cent higher possibility of depression, a more than double risk of alcohol abuse – 110 per cent – a three times greater risk of cannabis use – at 220 per cent – and 155 per cent greater risk of trying to commit suicide.
    Professor Coleman said her research was intended “to produce an unbiased analysis of the best available evidence addressing abortion as one risk factor among many others that may increase the likelihood of mental health problems”.
    She added: “There are in fact some real risks associated with abortion that should be shared with women as they are counselled prior to an abortion.” “

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  108. Viking2 (11,471 comments) says:

    “Hi! I’m Jane” she said.

    “I’m Christopher,” he replied “but everyone calls me Dick for short”

    “How do you get Dick from Christopher?” she asked.

    “You just have to ask me nicely” he replied.

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  109. OneTrack (3,108 comments) says:

    “No mention of Lecher Len on Tv1 last night . . . is there another left-wing conspiracy to get this mongrel a stay of execution? ”

    Yes, they are closing ranks.

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  110. OneTrack (3,108 comments) says:

    Pete – “If ACT don’t make any bad mistakes or say things that make them look stupid and keep their lawyers out of politics they should continue to receive reasonable coverage.”

    Yes, until they start registering in the polls and the risk rises that they will help Key. Then it will change again.

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  111. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    nasska @8.41
    back in the day you talk about the suicide rate was much lower.
    For the reasons you cite. This was good.

    You help make my point.

    Anything that will cause a potential suicide to pospone the decision is good. Dishonour on the family is one such thing.

    There are very few people around today who think, shit I should have killed myself.

    But there are plenty who think, ” Thank Christ I didn’t kill myself then in that black period that has passed.”
    Life is so good today.”

    “Victims” of suicide is a term used by socialist handwrigers (like pete geaorge for eg) who subscribe that no one is really personally responsible.

    People should get real.

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  112. Pete George (23,575 comments) says:

    Being a victim doesn’t exclude responsibility for it. You can be a victim of your own stupidity. Or of mental illness.

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  113. Rowan (2,398 comments) says:

    Reid @ 8.03

    Edward Livingston reminds me of a certain other Dunedin character who I won’t name here, I’m sure that deep down he loved his family and that this was completely out of character behaviour, this and Charlotte Dawson offing herself just goes to show what someone can do when they have lost it and feel that they have nothing left to live for. Unfortunately they are only ever remembered for their final act and not the person that they truly were, but I guess we would never have heard of them otherwise.

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  114. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Dear Pete George,

    i do not dissagree with your observation @ 9.16.
    However this has nothing at all to explain your silly expression that someone is a “victim” of suicide.

    Surely you have sufficient intellect to grasp that point.

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  115. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Neighbour’s Sussex / Orpington cross chicken said “BukKAKe” at me as I walked up the drive this evening.

    I just wonder how she found out… :-)

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  116. SGA (1,045 comments) says:

    mandk at 8:42 pm

    Ryan Sproull @ 7.01
    You might like to have a look at this:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8734378/Abortion-increases-risk-of-mental-health-problems-new-research-finds.html
    From the report:
    …. [snip for brevity]

    As I read the quote from the Telegraph, I wondered how you’d control for the possibility that women with mental health and substance abuse issues might be more likely to seek abortions in the first place because they felt less able to cope with an unwanted pregnancy.

    A quick search suggests that Professor Coleman’s work isn’t well regarded, for the reason that concerned me, and for problems reproducing her result from the same dataset.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscilla_K._Coleman

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  117. Chuck Bird (4,890 comments) says:

    Rowan @ 9:21

    With logic like that I can see why you are a David Bain supporter. Charlotte Dawson harmed only herself. Edward Livingston Livingston killed his own flesh and blood to hurt his wife.

    You are pretty low to try to score points due to this tragedy.

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  118. mandk (995 comments) says:

    I read that wikpedia article too, SGA.

    It seems that most of the criticism of Coleman has come from the APA which is a long-time “pro-choice”, politically-motivated organisation:

    http://afterabortion.org/2006/evidence-doesnt-matter-apa-spokesperson-says-of-abortion-complications/

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  119. SGA (1,045 comments) says:

    mandk at 9:56 pm

    I read that wikpedia article too, SGA.
    It seems that most of the criticism of Coleman has come from the APA which is a long-time “pro-choice”, politically-motivated organisation:

    Be that as it may, it doesn’t address what I saw, and still see, as a major problem with her study.

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  120. mandk (995 comments) says:

    On a different subject, the link I posted above has a fascinating excerpt from a paper by Michael Crichton on consensus science:

    “I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you’re being had.

    Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.

    There is no such thing as consensus science. If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus. Period.”

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  121. Nostalgia-NZ (5,214 comments) says:

    I know that you think you onto something with this comment bereal…

    ‘These days there is little stigma associated with it. “Oh, he was depressed”. or “Oh he was driven to it by bullies.”

    But could you explain how dead people measure stigma? Or are you talking about stigmatising the dead person’s friends or relations?

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  122. Nostalgia-NZ (5,214 comments) says:

    Mandk, that’s is absolutely wrong about ‘consensus’ deciding science – there is no reason that a popular or debated decision can determine science. Hardly worth mentioning really.

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  123. Rowan (2,398 comments) says:

    No logic in your posts Chuck
    Charlotte was a secondary comparison, the main comparison was with your hero, the gutless coward who took his own life because he could not face the consequences of his life situation and taking the lives of 4 members of his family first.
    If you only see this as ‘point scoring’ then you are pretty shallow, but we already know that don’t we!

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  124. goldnkiwi (1,308 comments) says:

    How do some posters get to be such experts on death and the dead? Rhetorical question!!!

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  125. Nostalgia-NZ (5,214 comments) says:

    How does an ass get to become a lawyer in a bottle shop.

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  126. Chuck Bird (4,890 comments) says:

    Rowan I am logical just like Judith Collins. That is why she was not keen on paying compo to someone who on the balance of probabilities murdered his family for money similar to the black widow. Why are the odd of DB getting a cent? I have heard rumours that he wants to just get on with his life. You would know more than me about that though.

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  127. Nostalgia-NZ (5,214 comments) says:

    Whose balance of probabilities chuckie, yours?

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  128. Rowan (2,398 comments) says:

    Better BOP test Chucky
    What is the odds of KP having a cent to his name once the outcome of the defamation case is released?
    And not to hard to guess where his cult following will be and how much $ they will give him.

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  129. goldnkiwi (1,308 comments) says:

    Is it fair to say that murder is an extreme form of bullying?

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  130. Nostalgia-NZ (5,214 comments) says:

    Watch out there’s a drunken ass in the bottle shop writing poetry.

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  131. eszett (2,410 comments) says:

    mandk (554 comments) says:
    February 24th, 2014 at 8:42 pm
    Ryan Sproull @ 7.01

    You might like to have a look at this:

    And you, mandk, might want to have a look at this

    http://healthland.time.com/2012/03/08/study-linking-abortion-to-mental-health-problems-is-flawed/


    A psychiatry journal has distanced itself from a controversial and widely cited study it published in 2009 linking abortions with mental health problems in women.

    The original study by Dr. Priscilla Coleman of Bowling Green State University and her colleagues, published in the Journal of Psychiatric Research, suggested that abortion was associated with long-term mental health problems like panic attacks, depression, substance abuse and post-traumatic stress disorder. Seven states have since used the study to support laws that require women seeking abortions to be counseled on the mental health risks. As it turns out, the study was highly flawed.

    One of the fundamental errors that plagues Coleman’s study is that the researchers did not distinguish whether mental health problems occurred before or after abortion. Indeed, in many cases, mental illness preceded abortions, weakening the argument that abortion can increase women’s mental health risks. In a commentary, the journal said the 2009 paper “does not support assertions that abortions led to psychopathology.”

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  132. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    The issue is also covered here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscilla_K._Coleman

    The following site has a post from Coleman.

    http://reproductiveresearchaudit.com/what-really-happens-to-women-not-denied-abortions-analysis-by-special-guest-dr-priscilla-coleman/

    The site’s mission statement is indicative of the politics of those doing research.

    http://reproductiveresearchaudit.com/mission/

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  133. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Christ the empathy from lizards is astounding

    yes and we know all the negative effects of abortion that the

    Let’s exterminate the white race and everyone else race will not tell you

    SUcked in Every one they are TELLING LIES AGAIN what is new — Nothing

    Can they think of any thing worse? Than Abortion?

    YES THEY CAN

    Just one

    State enforced Euthanasia

    and another
    and letting Violent psychos run wild in NZ

    What you have not figured out is this

    THEY DON”T JUST WANT ABORTION

    THEY WANT YOU ALL EXTERMINATED

    SLOWLY – Look around you

    Wake up? People

    IT IS ALL LIES
    LIE upon LIE wrapped in BULLSH*T
    and RAMMED DOWN YOUR THROATS

    Every minute of the day from
    Cradle (if you are lucky) to Grave

    if they let you die a Noble death

    OR PUT YOU DOWN LIKE A DOG

    because that is coming

    And if that does not work
    they START A WAR

    Looking for Weapons of MASS MASTERBATION

    THAT never Existed

    George Carlin – It’s a big club and you ain’t in it

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  134. ShawnLH (5,128 comments) says:

    Murdering children is wrong, in or out of the womb. It matters not one whit whether mothers who have their children killed are depressed afterwards. If they are sane, they will be. If they are liberals, they won’t be. But it’s not relevant.

    It is one of the laughable idiocies of liberals that they will criminalize a parent who merely gives their child a smack, and call it assault, and wail and gnash their teeth about how very very howwible such parents are, but then happily claim that murdering children in the womb is not only a “human right”, but positively good.

    To actually believe this kind of totally contradictory nonsense requires a person to be several shades of stupid.

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  135. eszett (2,410 comments) says:

    To actually believe this kind of totally contradictory nonsense requires a person to be several shades of stupid.

    Says the person who actually believes that there is no difference between a fertilised egg and a child.
    Dark, dark shades of stupid indeed.

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  136. ciaron (1,434 comments) says:

    Well, you can’t have the latter without the former…

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  137. eszett (2,410 comments) says:

    yes, and you can’t have it without a sperm either.
    Do you think a sperm is equal to a child as well?

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  138. ciaron (1,434 comments) says:

    No. And neither is an unfertilized egg. That is why in my lay opinion, fertilization seems to be the best point to declare life has begun. Others are free to differ.

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  139. eszett (2,410 comments) says:

    A lay opinion indeed. Completely arbitary and driven purely by the desired outcome than by reason or facts.
    And that exactly is the problem. You define things becasue it suits your agenda.

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  140. ciaron (1,434 comments) says:

    Enlighten me then; Whence doth life begin? first neurological activity? formation of the nervous system? first heart beat? first breath?

    You define things becasue it suits your agenda.

    what if I were to show you secular pro lifers share a similar definition?
    http://www.secularprolife.org/#!abortion/cimphttp://www.secularprolife.org/#!abortion/cimp

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