The flag debate

February 17th, 2014 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

Vernon Small at Stuff reports:

Fewer than two in five Kiwis want to retain the current flag, despite its defenders arguing it is the standard our troops fought and died for.

A Fairfax Media-Ipsos poll has found that only 38.6 per cent do not want a change to the current blue ensign incorporating the Southern Cross and the Union Jack.

But with almost 19 per cent “not bothered either way”, the call for a change, put on the table for debate by Prime Minister John Key earlier this month, is hardly overwhelming either.

The survey found that just under 18 per cent wanted the flag replaced with the silver fern – Key’s personal favourite – while another 23.7 per cent want a change to something other than the silver fern.

Key said the result was a strong starting point, with a narrow majority even before a campaign had begun. “My instinct would be that more coverage would more strongly make the case for change. I take a lot of heart from the poll.”

So 42% support change and 39% oppose it. That is a pretty good starting position.

Here’s what I would do, to facilitate New Zealanders being able to make an informed decision on the flag. A simple three step process.

  1. Launch a design competition and panel to consider alternate flag designs and short-list four of them.
  2. Have a referendum with the general election where voters vote for their preferred alternate design to go up against the current design out of the four short-listed designs.
  3. Then around six to twelve months after that referendum, have a binding final referendum where the design that won the first referendum goes up against the current design

I think having two separate votes is essential. You need a clear simple A vs B choice for the final vote, where NZers have had time to consider the merits of the alternate design to the status quo.

The first referendum is also essential, as that gives the final alternate design legitimacy. You will never get wide-spread agreement on an alternate design that is foisted on people. But people will get behind the winner of a fair vote, even if they had a preference for another design.

I have a preference for the silver fern on black design. But if that didn’t win the first referendum, I’d probably support whatever design does win so long as it is an improvement upon the status quo which I find absolutely unappealing and far too similar to Australia’s.

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69 Responses to “The flag debate”

  1. Roflcopter (397 comments) says:

    Seriously, just drop this debate this year…. it’s really not healthy.

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  2. Harriet (4,013 comments) says:

    Flags are of Eygptian heritage and have no real significance to NZ’s history.

    People have died under the flag so of course it should then remain.

    But changeing it as absolutly pointless.

    And in over 500yrs Maori could hardly even stack to rocks on top of each other – so the current NZ flag does have historical significance that is unlikely to be surpassed by some maori moto. :cool:

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  3. YesWeDid (1,003 comments) says:

    Just drop the whole thing until we need to change the flag when we become a republic.

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  4. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    The Kyle Lockwood design is one of the more popular alternatives:
    http://yournz.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/kyle-lockwood-flag.jpg

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  5. Ricardo (53 comments) says:

    Four stars and a white feather. Wow!

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  6. jp_1983 (101 comments) says:

    The only flag under the new constitution that will be acceptable is the Tino Flag.

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  7. Don the Kiwi (1,341 comments) says:

    Progressivism marches on…………

    Is there really any genuine reason for changing it, apart from a few opinionated liberals?

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  8. edhunter (435 comments) says:

    YesWeDid – that’s exactly the point of this thread, currently New Zealanders have little appetite to become a republic which unfortunately goes against the thoughts of DPF, it’s one of his pet projects.
    So when are you having a debate on republicanism when you’re not having a debate a republicanism ?
    When you’re having a debate about the flag.

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  9. Harriet (4,013 comments) says:

    “……currently New Zealanders have little appetite to become a republic which unfortunately goes against the thoughts of DPF, it’s one of his pet projects…..”

    But DPF has also said he wants a one world government – which would then make a republic rather pointless, more like a city council.

    I think DPF just wants to be popular.,,,,y’know…..at Wellington’s trendy cafes. :cool:

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  10. Rick Rowling (776 comments) says:

    I think having two separate votes is essential. You need a clear simple A vs B choice for the final vote

    Absolutely!

    I’d vote to change to just about any other flag, except the All Blacks (TM) Silver Fern (TM) on black.

    If the All Blacks (TM) Silver Fern (TM) is even slightly possible, I’d vote against a change.

    Because hopefully we’re sophisticated enough to separate our sovereignty from our favourite professional sporting franchise.

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  11. MT_Tinman (2,795 comments) says:

    I would vote for a flag that was the current flag sans the Pom flag.

    What we’d be offered should the debate proceed will be some imitation stoneage crap representing no one of significance.

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  12. Than (376 comments) says:

    The silver fern is my first choice, the Kyle Lockwood design second.

    Chris Trotter did a blog post a week or so ago arguing for the Tino rangatiratanga flag, but that’s an absolute non-starter. It’s simply too divisive. No flag is likely to be everybody’s first choice, but the Tino rangatiratanga flag is strongly associated with Maori protests, and it is actively disliked by a lot of Kiwis.

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  13. SPC (4,679 comments) says:

    It’s 38% for the status quo and 43% for change – and those who want change do not have consensus.

    So there is no alternative flag that gets near 38% support.

    It’s deferral time.

    While it is no surprise that baby boomers embrace a change, it is that the younger voter that resists it. The grandparents have taken over the grandchildren.

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  14. Fentex (664 comments) says:

    ewer than two in five Kiwis want to retain the current flag, despite its defenders arguing it is the standard our troops fought and died for.

    I wish people would stop confusing fighting under a flag with fighting for it.

    Fighting for your comrades, family, hearth and home is not fighting for a particular piece or design of cloth. The cloth is at best symbolic of identity and shouldn’t be confused with what is actually important.

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  15. Grizz (477 comments) says:

    The reality is the flag will not change. The majority of NZers may want a flag change, but we will never agree on what to change it to. So face it, the current flag will live on.

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  16. chris (460 comments) says:

    No flag is likely to be everybody’s first choice, but the Tino rangatiratanga flag is strongly associated with Maori protests, and it is actively disliked by a lot of Kiwis.

    I personally like the design of the Tino rangatiratanga flag, but I agree with you and wouldn’t vote for it if it was an option, because it’s divisive and associated with protest.

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  17. Fentex (664 comments) says:

    So there is no alternative flag that gets near 38% support.

    There is no clear replacement, and personally I find no suggested designs compelling.

    Absent a pressing and particular reason or purpose there aren’t many symbols of that missing need to express, which is sort of why the whole thing is a bit of a dreary issue, isn’t it?

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  18. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    The Fern has been more prevalent in our military history than the flag.

    Silver fern is NZ history
    Silver fern emblem used in Boer War

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  19. Nigel Kearney (747 comments) says:

    I understand that a number of people, consciously or not, really want to wipe out any reference to England, even if it means crapping all over our history and traditions and being represented instead by a piece of vegetation. What I don’t understand is how someone of David’s familiarity with government can type the words ‘panel to consider’ without instantly realizing how this dooms the idea to end in incredibly embarrassing fashion.

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  20. altiora (14 comments) says:

    No that’s a stupid recipe for us getting some hideous banana republic flag and alienating vast swathes of the electorate in the process.

    Better solution would be to have a panel of experts (both NZ and overseas, and including people who have specialized knowledge in flags) who conduct some focused consultation. The panel shjould be given a clear terms of reference to design a flag that is respectful of our past, including our British heritage.

    Let the experts decided on one or two possible flags, let those flags circulate for 2 or 3 years, then have a referendum on whether people want to replace the current flag with the proposed alternatives. I think people need to have time to reflect on the matter, and see if they’re comfortable with the proposed designs. Perhaps have flagpoles in main public places with the proposed and current flags flying.

    If a majority don’t support change, then never raise the flag issue for 25 years minimum have elapsed.

    What we don’t want is constant re-litigation of the issue. Sort of what republicans and Quebec-an separatists do: want to keep having referenda until they get the result they want; when they get that result say “OK, no more referenda, the people have spoken”.

    But above all else, people have to realise that choosing the flag isn’t an exercise in personal emotional reactions. It is about NZ having a proper conversation about what flag represents “us”; and in that respect, many of the more “progressive” set need to accept that many people are attached to the current flag and want, if we have a new flag, one that grows organically from our current flag.

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  21. Scott Chris (5,687 comments) says:

    People have never fought and died for the flag. They fought and died for our country. The flag merely symbolises our country as would any new design.

    Not sure that I’d go for a silver fern though. Rather just have the shape of our country symbolising our country. What could be more apt or apolitical? Make it black on yellow like a road sign.

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  22. greenjacket (348 comments) says:

    The symbol of NZ troops in the Boer War and then the NZ Division in WW1 and WW2 was a while silver fern on a black background. New Zealand war graves are distinguished by the silver fern carved into the headstone. The symbol that our troops fought and died under was the silver fern on a black background. So when people say we should use the symbol that our troops fought and died under, presumably they mean we should adopt a white silver fern on a black background?
    .
    As a symbol, the fern leaf was a generic NZ symbol from the 19th century, and when “the original” All Blacks adopted the white silver fern they were simply copying an already recognised NZ symbol. So the silver fern is not an All Black symbol – as a symbol of NZ it preceded the NZ rugby team.

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  23. Camryn (549 comments) says:

    That Kyle Lockwood design is gross. I favour the current flag but hope that, if we do change, it looks well designed… as opposed to assembling a grab-bag of national symbols in a rectangle using MS Paint.

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  24. Mrs Trellis (24 comments) says:

    The journalist who brought up the whole debate when he badgered Johnny Key into making a comment should be named, shamed, and then shot….

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  25. altiora (14 comments) says:

    Camryn (536 comments) says:
    February 17th, 2014 at 3:02 pm
    That Kyle Lockwood design is gross. I favour the current flag but hope that, if we do change, it looks well designed… as opposed to assembling a grab-bag of national symbols in a rectangle using MS Paint.

    Thank you! My thoughts exactly. I can’t help thinking that that design would befit some “proud to be Kiwi” company banner.

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  26. Psycho Milt (1,996 comments) says:

    So the silver fern is not an All Black symbol – as a symbol of NZ it preceded the NZ rugby team.

    So? These days it’s the symbol of a pro sports franchise, which ought to immediately rule it out for anyone who doesn’t see the national flag as an expanded form of corporate logo.

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  27. tvb (3,950 comments) says:

    There is nothing with the present design. Nothing. The Sourhern Cross is deeply significant far more so than the silver fern which is a sporting symbol. The Union Jack says something about where NZ came from as country. Before the treaty NZ was not a country. I do jot even mind our flag is similar to Australia as we are probably the two closest sovereign countries and getting closer economically. NZ is far more than sport and the silver fern can remain as a sporting symbol only.

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  28. Psycho Milt (1,996 comments) says:

    It is about NZ having a proper conversation about what flag represents “us”;

    I’m trying to picture all those countries with flags that have three or four coloured stripes on them creating those flags as a result of a proper conversation about what flag would really represent them, but it’s not working…

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  29. redqueen (347 comments) says:

    I agree Pete, if we’re going to drop the current flag and not going to adopt the Jolly Roger, then the Kyle Lockwood design is one of the more appealing options (retaining a sense of connection with our current flag, but with the addition of the fern, and far more colourful than just black).

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  30. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    Like other vitally important issues of life and death (euthanasia) let’s take it away from the people (election year) and just change it after the election when people won’t be in the way.

    Classic Labour Party policy on all other forms of social engineering politics.

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  31. Nigel Kearney (747 comments) says:

    I’m trying to picture all those countries with flags that have three or four coloured stripes on them creating those flags as a result of a proper conversation about what flag would really represent them, but it’s not working…

    Or France and Holland both wanting the same colours and having a conversation about who would get vertical and who would get horizontal.

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  32. s.russell (1,486 comments) says:

    “The Sourhern Cross is deeply significant”

    No it isn’t. I cannot recall ever seeing it used as a symbol of NZ outside of the flag. It is more recognisable as a symbol of health insurance. It is also not unique to NZ, just to the southern hemisphere.

    Sports teams (not just the ABs) use the fern BECAUSE it is a widely recognised symbol of NZ. The reality is that no other symbol has the same level of recognition as such a symbol. So if there is to be a change, it has to be the fern in some form.

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  33. greenjacket (348 comments) says:

    The white silver fern on a black background (or reversed) is used by almost every national team – olympics, football, netball, cricket, hockey, paralympics, Athletics NZ, Team NZ, SportNZ, … To think that it is just the symbol of the All Blacks is wrong.
    .
    As the symbol of “New Zealand” it is in widespread use already. The white silver fern on a black background (or a black fern on white background) is also the symbol of New Zealand Trade and Enterprise, NZ Tourism, Wools of NZ, Silver Fern Farms meat, NZ winegrowers, and a multitude of government and other groups.
    .
    The use of the southern cross is very limited as a national symbol, suggesting few people associate it as distinctly signifying “New Zealand”. Beyond the flag itself, it is used by an insurance company and on the NZ National Party logo.

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  34. Pete George (21,831 comments) says:

    Key says Cabinet will make a decision on whether to put the flag to a referendum within about a month.

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  35. Rick Rowling (776 comments) says:

    Or France and Holland both wanting the same colours and having a conversation about who would get vertical and who would get horizontal.

    That’s easy! A French flag that is 1/3rd worn down is no longer a French flag.

    The Dutch however, are canny enough to have a flag that remains a Dutch flag for much longer…

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  36. hj (5,720 comments) says:

    Compare the flag debate “let’s have a referendum” to the “let’s become a multicultural” debate where they went ahead without consent and called opponents racist.

    Xenophobic days of NZ First’s rise are behind us, as cultural and economic benefits of immigration become more obvious
    Sometimes, changes in attitude are apparent not so much because of what is being said as what is not being said. Such is the case with New Zealanders’ attitude to Asia and Asian immigration. A subject that was once of sufficient rancour to help New Zealand First gain 13 per cent of the vote in the 1996 general election generates – isolated episodes apart – very little discussion today. We now feel much more affinity with Asia and immigrants from that region, a fact underlined by an Asia New Zealand Foundation study released this week.

    It found that in 2011, 55% of New Zealanders thought Asian immigration was positive, a substantial rise from 32% in 1997, when Winston Peters was achieving maximum mileage from xenophobic outbursts. The period had, the study said, seen a significant re-evaluation of New Zealanders’ attitude, which it attributed to greater contact with Asian people. In Auckland, where the Asian population was just 5.5% in 1991 and is projected to reach 30 per cent by 2021, this process has been most marked. Given the pace of absorption, there has been remarkably little stress or strain.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11146561
    Used old figures to bolster his case

    Figure 5.
    Percentage of New Zealanders who say each will have a positive impact in the next 10 to 20 years

    Immigration from Asia to New Zealand (n=947)
    2011 55% 2112 51%

    http://asianz.org.nz/sites/asianz.org.nz/files/Perceptions_of_Asia_report_2013.pdf

    If you were to ask about immigrants and negative things (house prices, congestion) do you want to live in a crowded country, you might get different results.

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  37. Longknives (4,051 comments) says:

    If you guys seriously think our new flag will be anything other than a Maori design you are living in fucking Disneyland..

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  38. big bruv (12,388 comments) says:

    ” out of the four short-listed designs.”

    Which will be four Maori designs.

    Keep the bloody flag as it is thanks.

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  39. JMS (202 comments) says:

    @Longknives
    @Big Bruv

    I would like to change our flag, but if the alternative offered is a Maori design, I will be voting for the status quo.
    I’m sure many people think the same way. A Maori design will never win at a referendum.

    If the introduction of a new flag was left up to a committee of ‘experts’, then yes, we would undoubtedly get a Maori design.

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  40. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    “I personally like the design of the Tino rangatiratanga flag, but I agree with you and wouldn’t vote for it if it was an option, because it’s divisive and associated with protest.”

    Absolutely agree – the TRT flag is a beautiful design, and the best of all “alternative” flags (especially better than the United Tribes flag which I think is hideous, and any flag featuring the silver fern which would appear to most as a white feather).

    But the TRT flag doesn’t represent me or a large part of NZ society, so I couldn’t vote for it. A pity.

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  41. wiseowl (579 comments) says:

    Leave the bloody flag alone.
    Be proud of it ,patriotic and stand up for it.

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  42. Nukuleka (79 comments) says:

    Time to abandon this silly debate about changing the flag. It’s just so ‘yesterday’.

    What silliness can we come up with next? I know, a debate about changing the name of the country.

    What on earth does the name NEW ZEALAND have to do with our identity as a multi ethnic country with a Maori heritage situated in the South Pacific in the post colonial era? Time to cut our ties with our Eurocentric past. ‘Aotearoa’ is too divisive as many white New Zealanders (oops, sorry to use that hateful post colonial name) don’t like it and can’t pronounce it properly in any case.

    I propose we have a referendum to change the name of the country to something that better reflects our national identity in the 21st century.

    Any takers?

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  43. tvb (3,950 comments) says:

    The Southern Cross is regularly in our night sky and says something about where we are located. It can also be symbolic of our 4 main Island groups. It is also aesthetically very pleasing. If holds cultural significance to Maori. If that does not resonate it damn well should do so. And it’s christian symbolism is also

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  44. Jack5 (4,231 comments) says:

    The economy’s going well and National’s ahead, so if Key wants to fuck around with the flag, we can make a blank or invalid party vote come November.

    About turn on the smacking bill, fucking around with the flag … it’s time for a protest party vote.

    Beautiful design, striking shades of colour, remarkable, unique… are they gays driving this issue?

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  45. Odakyu-sen (250 comments) says:

    … the Tino rangatiratanga flag

    You mean that red, black and white flag of the nationalistic and socialistic Maori party?

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  46. JMS (202 comments) says:

    @Jack5

    If you don’t want to change, then just vote No (in the unlikely event there is a referendum).

    Why help the Left by not casting a party vote?

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  47. stephieboy (1,167 comments) says:

    Odakyu and Jack S

    Another bout of hysterics.!
    And jack S ,Key is seriously, seriously worried about your non vote.?

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  48. F E Smith (3,276 comments) says:

    I am with greenjacket on this. We already have an alternative flag, one that has already been used to represent this country in wartime and at sporting events of all types. The world knows that a black flag with a silver fern on it means New Zealand. If it is time to change the flag, then that should be it. To be honest, I think that none of the other proposals look very good at all.

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  49. Jack5 (4,231 comments) says:

    Re stephieboy 6.22

    So the gays are driving this!

    Key of course isn’t concerned about one party non-vote, but if the ordinary voter is to have a show in the MMP system, a blank party vote has to be one of the serious choices. We are free individuals, not sheep to be herded by party politicians and political strategists.

    Nukuleka (5.46) suggests any referendum also include New Zealand’s name. That would really help with branding in our export and tourist markets, Nukuleka.

    If we were to vote on the nation’s name because of some sort of post-colonial chip on shoulder, why not also vote on whether English language should remain the dominant tongue in NZ. Maori or Tongan or Samoan would be so ethnic, wouldn’t it? We might as well also vote on whether we retain Latin script or switch to Chinese or Japanese characters.

    For those who like the feather-like white fern on pirate black for the flag, why not a new national anthem, too: Yo-ho-and-a-bottle-of-rum, Seven dead men on a seaman’s chest…

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  50. Odakyu-sen (250 comments) says:

    Seriously, though. New Zealand is far too immature a country to worry about selecting a flag at this point. Give it several more decades, until it grows up a bit, gains a measure of self-confidence and social stability, and finds some passion, and then we can talk about becoming a republic and selecting a flag.

    NZ is years away from that point.

    If you don’t have to change it then don’t.

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  51. stephieboy (1,167 comments) says:

    Odakyu-sen

    Patronizing drivel.!

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  52. Mark (1,303 comments) says:

    It would be good to change the flag when we scrap the monachy. Both are inevitable it is just a matter of timing and perhaps that time is getting nearer.

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  53. Nukuleka (79 comments) says:

    Just in case anyone didn’t actually get it (Jack5), I was being what we in Tonga call ‘facetious’……..

    Please can’t we stop trying to change things that don’t need changing!

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  54. Jack5 (4,231 comments) says:

    Nukuleka – nice one!

    Tonga’s flag looks a bit like Switzerland’s widely used flag but that just helps you remember it, in my view.

    Contrast the present NZ flag discussion with the position in Hawaii, which has retained the Union Jack in the state flag for historical reasons.

    The question is: does Key just want to sideline the flag issue into a referendum to prevent another party picking it up as a diversion in the election run-up?

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  55. Don the Kiwi (1,341 comments) says:

    Dare I mention the Christian symbolism in the Union Jack, which was made in the 17th. century to celebrate the union of England and Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
    The red square cross is the cross of St. George.
    The diagonal white cross is the cross of St. Andrew, and the red cross overlaying it is the cross of St.Patrick.

    But because we are a secular society, all Christian symbolism has to be destroyed, doncha know, ‘cos its discriminatory.

    The march of the progressives……………

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  56. tvb (3,950 comments) says:

    We may be secular but christian values are an integral part of our law and customs. Just think of the 10 commandments and the concept of forgiveness tolerance and mercy. Nothing wrong with that. If that is offensive to other faiths such as Muslim then piss off we don’t want you here. The symbolism of Christianity in the Southern Cross is important to some let alone the Union Jack. These are universal values that are part of the fabric that is New Zealand. The silver fern is cheap baseless lacking anything but the most superficial sporting impulses. This Country is a lot more than mere fleeting sporting achievement.

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  57. stephieboy (1,167 comments) says:

    Don the kiwi your wrong.The eventual union of England , Wales and Scotland has had a long history of bloody wars of conquest and struggle.Christian symbolism is only an incidental fact of those wars, battles and struggles.
    Thus you would argue that the adaption of the stars and stripes by the American Revolutionaries and people smacks of secularism – “the march of the progressives … ” in your words.???

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  58. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    2% majority is not a Mandate

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  59. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    It has to stand for something
    that is worth defending

    NO ONE is going to take the
    “pink carnation”
    you are proposing seriously

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  60. V (660 comments) says:

    Good one Farrar, lets have two expensive referendums on a bloody flag change. Are you offering to pay the cost?

    Surely there are more important issues in NZ that need to go to referendum before this.

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  61. Azeraph (598 comments) says:

    Why not change it? In the first 20 years of the 20th century several European empires disappeared. I repeat Disappeared.If some old coots don’t like change it’s because they have stopped ongoing growth of personal formulation within their lives. Basically, they think the past is where it’s at but unfortunately they won’t be around to see their children change it.

    Let’s break a meme and try and break this. Since the black plague man has in constant transition from one new state to another. If people don’t like change then they should go bush o0r start reading the greatest book ever being written, The net.

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  62. Azeraph (598 comments) says:

    Fuck this, we don’t need expensive referendums if the Govt moved online. Tap tap done, voted. That’s the future. It’s coming whether you want it or not.

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  63. RRM (8,997 comments) says:

    What flag debate?

    There is no debate, this is a beltway issue, noone else cares.

    The media laps it up because it gives them page clicks.

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  64. Jack5 (4,231 comments) says:

    Azeraph at 7..27:

    …let’s break a meme …

    Yep, the gays are driving the flag debate.

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  65. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Gay Marriage will be Compulsory

    and We will have a new Flag

    it will be Fabulous Just Fabulous

    Thank you Mr Key

    you always give us what we want
    X0X0

    Always

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  66. Jack5 (4,231 comments) says:

    MSM bias on the flag issue continues today (Feb 18).

    The Christchurch Press reports “fewer than two in five” New Zealanders want to retain the present flag. As explained above, of those polled 38.6 per cent opposed a change. Of those polled only 42 per cent support change, so it could have reported (but of course didn’t) that only fewer than half those polled supported change.

    This is biased reporting, but there’s no surprise in that.

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  67. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    So 42% support change and 39% oppose it. That is a pretty good starting position.

    Seriously you should need to prove 90% support to even discuss changing it

    What a joke what is the accuracy of this pole what electorate and demographic did it come from?
    WHO ARE YOU TRYING TO KID?

    ON WHAT DEMOCRATIC BASIS DO YOU LAUNCH A DESIGN COMPETITION?

    AND WITH WHOSE MONEY AND WHOSE AUTHORITY IS THAT MONEY TO BE SPENT?

    HOW CAN YOU WRITE A DESIGN BRIEF WITH OUT A MANDATE FROM THE PEOPLE?

    THIS IS LIES

    YOU SHOULD HAVE TO HAVE A DEMOCRATIC MANDATE FROM THE PEOPLE BEFORE YOU
    DARE TOUCH OUR COUNTRIES SYMBOLS AGAIN?

    This is an obvious SET UP

    The Question is do we need a new one and why?

    not would you prefer this this or this or this IF IT WAS TO CHANGE?

    YOU ARE COOKING THIS UP TO YOUR OWN AGENDA

    You are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the NZ people again

    What is the real agenda here folks?

    the real agenda is destruction of the culture that the country is founded on

    Pull your Rose tinted glasses off and look around you

    That is what the Real Agenda is

    it has nothing to do with what is right for the country
    more to appear that you are doing what is right

    While everything else continues behind closed doors

    You don’t have a democratic mandate to do this

    You are trying to CREATE ONE

    WHY? WHY NOW? WHAT IS THE DESPERATE NEED AND MOTIVATION?

    It is truly fascinating

    http://www.made.org/

    Australians had to fight and die for the right to vote
    Some believe that the southern cross on their flag
    references the Eureka rebellion that their democracy was founded on

    “We swear by the Southern Cross to stand truly by each other and fight to defend our rights
    and liberties.”
    The Eureka Oath
    from Peter Lalor’s
    1854 speech

    NZ used to stand for something
    NOW IT STANDS FOR NOTHING
    IT IS MEANINGLESS

    I like the Quote from Malcolm X

    “‘A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything’?”

    And because NZ is now struggling to stand for something
    you are hoping people will fall for anything?

    You people will adopt anything
    any FLIM FLAM SYMBOL
    the CENTRE RIGHT or CENTRE LEFT will or even the fascist movement
    or anyone else will throw at you or
    RAM DOWN YOUR GOBS

    or present in a cooked up Quasi Referendum with design comp?

    The Flag your have
    YOU DO NOT DESERVE

    The
    tino rangatiratanga

    Was flown on your buildings with out any real discussion
    or democratic mandate from the nz people

    Even that made the flag it flew beside irrelevant

    1200 submissions
    How many people in your country
    when do 1200 decide

    what the rest should accept
    that is fascism

    Even maori whose flag this is supposed to be
    have they been asked is this your flag?

    and no I don’t mean all the mates negotiating the treaty I mean ALL MAORI

    Do they know what and who it represents DO they?

    IF IT MEANS ‘absolute sovereignty’.
    So who is their sovereign? Sharples? is he the new Maori Messiah?

    Let’s meet him her or them
    and how were they elected?

    and did maori vote for them in separate elections they organised themselves?

    THEN YOU HAD BETTER GET YOUR HEAD OF STATE
    AND HER ARMED FORCES TO PAY HOMAGE TO IT
    Tino rangatiratanga
    AND SUBMIT TO IT THEM
    BEFORE YOU FLY IT ON ANY STATE BUILDINGS

    AND ACCEPTING IT AS OFFICIAL ON YOUR HEAD OF STATES BEHALF

    Take it to england and present it to the Queen she is who you report to?

    Does the Governer General get consulted

    Will there be a “constitution” to go with it?

    If you are suggesting a Republic Discuss it in the OPEN
    Changing flags and symbols with out constitutional reform is a FARCE
    AND YOU KNOW IT.

    NO THERE WILL NOT a constitution? will there

    Tino rangatiratanga it is in the Treaty
    So who voted for it?

    YOU DON”T FLY ANY FLAG
    without ASKING ALL THE PEOPLE OF NEW ZEALAND?

    OTHERWISE REFUND ALL THEIR TAXES AND RESIGN?

    1,200 submissions on the Tino Rangatiratanga flag
    IS NOT A MANDATE EITHER

    WITH 3-4 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY ?

    WHAT A LOAD OF PATRONISING ARROGANT CORRUPT HOGWASH

    Time for an Election?

    >
    Sharples said the Māori flag was a simple way to recognise the status of Māori as tangata whenua. “However, the New Zealand flag remains the symbol of our nation, and there is no intention to change this, nor to diminish the status of our national flag.”
    >
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tino_rangatiratanga

    We all got sucked in didn’t we

    Again

    High priority changing the Flag in these times of Turmoil?

    The real question is WHO or WHAT is really behind all of this? and Why?

    The Answer to Life the Universe and everything is 42%
    in some poll from somewhere

    Wow what a groundswell

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  68. Azeraph (598 comments) says:

    The rainbow flag? We’ll be laughed out of existence by the mere fact that 2.something % of the country managed to hoodwink the rest into adopting it. Tino Rangatiratanga, that’s a beautiful flag and would standout in amongst a million others but the controversy surrounding it sours it for adoption.Discussing changing the flag or becoming a republic will be seriously discussed sooner or later as it is time for our first shedding of our old skin and ushering in the new century through new eyes. As a country we are still very young. A prejack teenager and Liz is in her last years and honestly the kids i talk to don’t give a hoot about the monarchy or any monarchy.

    Do we celebrate the battle of waterloo? Will we still celebrate Anzac day a century from now? I doubt it.

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  69. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    THE NZ FLAG is Safe in only one PLace

    Victoria Melbourne Shrine of Remembrance
    where the names of 60,000 volunteers who served in WW1′s names are recorded.

    It hangs inside and its granted the respect it deserves opposite the Australian
    on the side that faces NZ

    It will be there in 100 years

    Trust me you will not be putting any other fake rendition in its place

    Australians at least understand the NZ sacrifice that allowed it to hang there
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine_of_Remembrance

    The Flame that represents Freedom outside the Shrine will never be put out either

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