When’s the report on other religions?

February 6th, 2014 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

The Vatican “systematically” adopted policies that allowed priests to rape and molest tens of thousands of children over decades, a   human rights committee said Wednesday, urging the Holy See to open its files on pedophiles and bishops who concealed their crimes.

In a devastating report hailed by abuse victims, the UN committee severely criticized the Holy See for its attitudes toward homosexuality, contraception and abortion and said it should change its own canon law to ensure children’s rights and their access to health care are guaranteed.

The Catholic Church’s position on child molestation in its ranks has been woeful, and the criticism is not unexpected.

But I note the UN report also criticises the Catholic church for its views on issues of homosexuality, contraception and abortion.

As it so happens I disagree with the Catholic Church on those issues, but I am of course ot Catholic.

What I am wondering is when this UN Human Rights committee will denounce other religions such as Islam for its views on the role of women in society, marital rape, blaming rape victims for rape etc?

Why target the Catholic Church only?

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103 Responses to “When’s the report on other religions?”

  1. Anthony (736 comments) says:

    Good point, they wouldn’t want to upset people belonging to those other religions would they?

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  2. Chuck Bird (4,402 comments) says:

    “What I am wondering is when this UN Human Rights committee will denounce other religions such as Islam for its views on the role of women in society, marital rape, blaming rape victims for rape etc?”

    And of course homosexuality. The liberals are very selective about who they criticize for there view on homosexuality. Conservatives in the West object to the promotion of homosexuality. Not many now want it made a criminal offense like in the Moslim countries that have the death penalty. You do not hear the homosexual activists here suggesting we do not play cricket with India – very selective morality.

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  3. Jack5 (4,216 comments) says:

    The UN singles out the Catholic Church because Christianity is a core part of Western culture. The UN hates the West.

    What hypocrites. UN troops have committed gang rape in Burundi, Sudan, Mali, the Ivory Coast, the Congo, and Haiti and probably other countries.

    The UN is a mere dictators’ club. Why the fuck is NZ spending millions trying to get elected to its Security Council?

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  4. Nukuleka (77 comments) says:

    Who are the UN to criticise anyone for anything? Great heavens, on the one hand they criticise the Catholic Church for its attitude to ‘children’s rights’ and on the other criticise it for doing all it can to combat the anti-child pro-abortion pro-death lobby which condones the murder of unborn children!

    The UN and the points of view of its various agencies are of wholesale irrelevance.

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  5. peterwn (2,933 comments) says:

    One would think that the UN would be supportive of Pope Francis’s efforts to sort things out instead of kicking him in the teeth.

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  6. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    What Jack5 said.

    Exactly how much time does the UN spend on it’s own child abuse scandals?

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  7. wreck1080 (3,522 comments) says:

    if you criticize islam you get murdered.

    Think thats why.

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  8. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    I recall hearing a number of problems in quite a few denominations over the years. It seems that mishandling such things is far from uncommon, perhaps even the rule.

    But the question of why the RC church is targeted isn’t hard to work out.
    1. The vatican is a state, and as such participates in treaty negoiations.
    2. They actually stand for something other than what might be called the liberal agenda
    3. They can’t be bought off by threats of removed aid.

    Hence, often it’s the Roman Catholic church that’s the center of opposition to various treaties that are intended to implement this agenda or that. I read an article about it years back, there was even an open campaign to try and get their status revoked.

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  9. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    The UN systematically ignored Roland Dallaire’s pleas for early and efficient intervention in the Rwandan genocide.A genocide that destabalised the whole region and has ongoing consequences in Congo today.

    When will we get a report on that?

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  10. tas (527 comments) says:

    The Catholic Church pretends to be a country and has observer status in the UN. No other religion has that, although many countries have Islam as an official religion and sharia as law.

    But I think the main reason they don’t criticize Islam is because they might be killed. Catholics have left that behind them.

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  11. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Demanding a witch hunt on other religions is just another way for Catholics to distract from their own wrongs and try and minimise it.

    Every Catholic is tainted with the stench of their long sordid history of child rape. The ordinary church goers often knew about it but kept quiet to protect the church. This has been exposed in numerous investigations of horrific abuse. Each and every Catholic is part of it and is guilty.

    [DPF: 20 demerits]

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  12. tas (527 comments) says:

    Also +1 kowtow. UN priorities are a mystery.

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  13. Sofia (778 comments) says:

    David Farrar – What I am wondering is when this UN Human Rights committee will denounce other religions such as Islam for its views on the role of women in society, marital rape, blaming rape victims for rape etc?

    Posted on General Debate this morning – here, a cut-down version …

    A new Afghan law will allow men to attack their wives, children and sisters without fear of judicial punishment, undoing years of slow progress in tackling violence in a country blighted by so-called “honour” killings, forced marriage and vicious domestic abuse.
The small but significant change to Afghanistan’s criminal prosecution code bans relatives of an accused person from testifying against them.

    Under the new law, prosecutors could never come to court with cases like that of Sahar Gul, a child bride whose in-laws chained her in a basement and starved, burned and whipped her when she refused to work as a prostitute for them. Women like 31-year-old Sitara, whose nose and lips were sliced off by her husband at the end of last year, could never take the stand against their attackers. 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/04/afghanistan-law-victims-violence-women

    This after USA, New Zealand and other countries have been in Afghanistan for years … it now reverts

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  14. cha (3,529 comments) says:

    Do you support Dallaire’s plea for intervention in Syria?.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10301957/Only-ground-troops-will-end-bloodshed-in-Syria-says-commander-of-UN-during-Rwandan-genocide.html

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  15. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    kowtow (6,262 comments) says:
    February 6th, 2014 at 2:27 pm
    The UN systematically ignored Roland Dallaire’s pleas for early and efficient intervention in the Rwandan genocide.A genocide that destabalised the whole region and has ongoing consequences in Congo today.

    When will we get a report on that?

    For Rwandans, the pope’s apology must be unbearable

    If sexual abuse in Ireland warrants his contrition, what contempt is shown by the Vatican’s silence over its role in genocide

    Fifteen years ago, tens of thousands of Catholics were hacked to death inside churches. Sometimes priests and nuns led the slaughter. Sometimes they did nothing while it progressed. The incidents were not isolated. Nyamata, Ntarama, Nyarubuye, Cyahinda, Nyange, and Saint Famille were just a few of the churches that were sites of massacres.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/mar/29/pope-catholics-rwanda-genocide-church

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  16. gump (1,228 comments) says:

    It’s hard for me to feel any sympathy for the Catholic Church.

    They made the choice to protect the priests who collectively raped and molested tens of thousands of children. And that choice was morally indefensible.

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  17. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Kowtow wants to blame someone else for what is cult did. But the facts speak louder.

    The Catholic Church Bears Guilt for the Horrors of the Rwandan Genocide

    The guide informed us that babies were slammed against the wall until dead. One of the brick walls still had blood and even some hair.

    My stomach lurched as I considered the inhumanity necessary to feel nothing as you felt the impact of a baby’s skull to a brick wall, as you felt the child’s blood dribble down your forearm, as you heard the chilling silence of an aborted cry. He then showed us a stick used to torture women by shoving it inside them until they died. Its pointy tip was still caked with blood. Even looking at the stick sent a surge of sharp pain throughout my body.

    We then visited Nyamata, a nearby church where 10,000 people sought refuge then were systematically murdered.

    http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/letters/the-catholic-church-bears-guilt-for-the-horrors-of-the-rwandan-genocide

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  18. gump (1,228 comments) says:

    @DPF

    “Why target the Catholic Church only?”

    ————————

    The Holy See ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

    They’re being singled out for criticism because they’ve failed to adhere to the treaty.

    Here is the list of signatories:

    https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetails.aspx?mtdsg_no=IV-11&chapter=4&lang=en

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  19. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Why target the Catholic Church only?

    I am just guessing, but maybe it has to do with the Catholic Church running a global pedophile network catering to the perverted lusts of its clergy.

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  20. ZenTiger (419 comments) says:

    Kea, Re your second link: Churches were places of possible refuge, so the people ran to them. The Militia broke in and slaughtered them anyway. The post you reference is just another “blame Catholics” for the Rwandan massacre. It’s just a little pathetic. Stay on topic, old bird.

    Re your first link: Yes, there are some bad police, priests, schoolteachers and gardeners that were involved in great evil. And some lawyers that supported them. Sometimes though, it’s not all a conspiracy led by the Vatican.

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  21. pcplod (18 comments) says:

    Trying not to minimise the trauma experienced by abused children who later become troubled adults I can honestly speak to my experience at Saint Josephs Home and Nazareth House which is where we did our schooling. I attended both for over twelve months right at the time the bulk of alleged abuses happened. My two sisters lived at Nazareth House.

    In my opinion many of the accusations are untrue; that is not to say all of them. We were all interviewed by lawyers, psychologists and representatives of the church (nuns). Apart from bullying from bigger boys which was ignored by the nuns the only bad things I experienced and witnessed were humiliating smacking’s of boys in front of classrooms fill of girls; much to the amusement of some of the girls. Not once did my brothers, my sisters or I see or hear of any girl being punished and yet many of the claims have been from girls for just that.

    We were literally interrogated at length by lawyers about a particular priest who appeared twice a week to take mass and monthly for confessions. He was a kind man who was not only hardly there he just wasn’t alone with any children that much. There seemed to be a real push to have the priest made a scapegoat. My siblings and I refused to buy into it even though the lawyers kept at us for months.

    The end result was a five thousand dollar cheque to everyone except those who few claimed severe abuse; they got more. Six months after the pay-outs back came the lawyers telling us we could all get more money. I am in contact with my family and two other “inmates”; non of us responded to the last letters from the lawyers. Something stunk.

    P.S. We are no longer practising Catholics.

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  22. wiseowl (571 comments) says:

    Time to tell this organisation to FO.
    Who will be the first Western country to speak up?

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  23. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    ZenTiger (401 comments) says:
    February 6th, 2014 at 3:21 pm
    Kea, Re your second link: Churches were places of possible refuge, so the people ran to them. The Militia broke in and slaughtered them anyway.

    You disgusting piece of human garbage ! You are just like those that protected the pedophile priests with lies and denials.

    The Catholic church organised the killing. I guess you think you can get away with that lie in the hope no one will do a quick google check or read my links

    [DPF: 20 demerits]

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  24. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Only a religious person would come on KB defending genocide and child rape. Sickening :(

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  25. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    it’s not all a conspiracy led by the Vatican.

    Religion: Pope protected Wisconsin pedophile priest

    Pope protected Wisconsin pedophile priest. In the 90′s Pope Benedict XVI (then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger) failed to act against a priest guilty of sexually molesting as many as 200 boys at a school for the deaf over the course of 20 years.

    Pope Benedict XVI (then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger) failed to defrock Murphy, even after receiving repeated warnings from U.S. bishops about the matter.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/religion-pope-protected-wisconsin-pedophile-priest

    pope John Paul II’s international paedophile ring of Catholic priests

    …thousands of family members were called upon to help victims cope with a callous and even malicious Vatican system, while John Paul II caressed, protected and promoted one of Catholicism’s worst child abusers

    http://www.vatileaks.com/_blog/Vati_Leaks/post/Pope_John_Paul_II's_international_paedophile_ring_of_Catholic_priests/

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  26. edhunter (434 comments) says:

    As an ex-Catholic I’m happy to say I no love for the church, I don’t hate them like some on here do but hey one man’s meat etc.
    The UN on the other hand can go take a flying fuck as far as I’m concerned, it’s so unwieldy & grown so far beyond it’s original charter as to be almost unrecognisable.

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  27. ZenTiger (419 comments) says:

    Only an idiot would read into my comments that I defend child abuse and rape. Got better things to do with my life than talk to some-one who parrots the same old lines and makes the same misleading statements.

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  28. calendar girl (1,108 comments) says:

    pcplod: You clearly had some challenges and disappointments in your childhood to have lived in those institutions. It would have taken a bit of courage to reveal your personal insights and impressions on this thread. Thanks for sharing them with us.

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  29. Pita (356 comments) says:

    The Catholic Church will deal with the UN Human Rights committee in the most appropriate way, the way they know how…by smiling beatifically, intoning a few platitudes and accepting the UN’s hypocrisy for what it is.

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  30. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    A good article at the link on how the U.N report is ignorant and misleading. It’s so full of rubbish, that it’s hard to know where to begin….

    The article starts out –

    The 16-page UN report is so full of crass errors and myths that it is impossible to tackle them all. But the principal faults can be gathered under the three headings of 1) ignorance about the Church’s record on abuse 2) misunderstanding about the Church 3) attempt to impose an ideology of sexuality and gender.

    1) Ignorance of the Church’s record of abuse

    Nowhere is the Report is there an acknowledgement that the Catholic Church in the western world has led safeguarding, creating guidelines and best practices which are routinely recommended by governments to other institutions to emulate. Nor does it acknowledge that the Holy See at least since 2001 has been the catalyst of those best practices, cajoling bishops’ conferences across the world to put in place measures of the sort pioneered in the US and the UK. Instead, the Report peddles the myth (29) that “the Holy See has consistently placed the preservation of the reputation of the Church and the protection of the perpetrators above children’s best interests”. If there is substance to that claim pre-2000, the opposite is now the case, and nowhere is this acknowledged. This, no doubt, was designed to produce headlines like the BBC’s — ‘UN slams Vatican for protecting priests over child abuse’ — in order to sustain the myth of the Church, and the Vatican in particular, as an unreformed institution, when all the evidence points the other way.

    http://cvcomment.org/2014/02/05/how-the-holy-see-was-ambushed-by-a-un-kangaroo-court/

    Worth reading. The U.N is criticizing the Church while peddling its liberal sexuality and gender ideologies. This is the same U.N who gave third world women contraceptive injections without their knowledge or consent, violating their human rights. What statements are the UN giving to its member nations were human traffickers seem to operate with the local police turning a blind eye?

    If you want to support the Holy See, sign the petition at http://defendtheholysee.org/

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  31. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    I am still waiting for the church’s followers to come forward on this thread and condemn the centuries of child rape their organisation has inflicted. Instead all we see is finger pointing at others, blatant lies and denials, and attempts to minimise the horror.

    This serves to demonstrate the terrible harm religion does to a persons morality and reason. What disgusting vile people you theists are.

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  32. Manolo (12,618 comments) says:

    The cowardly UN will never utter a word of condemnation against brutal Islam, the savage religion of peace.

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  33. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    Kea, as I have pointed out many, many times – no one thinks any abuse is good, and also, the rate of abuse in the Church was not more than any other institution such as schools. In fact, the Shakeshaft report said that the abuse in schools was 100 times worse than the Church.

    Again, this in no way excuses it, but you seem to love to pick at the Church.

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  34. big bruv (12,327 comments) says:

    “Why target the Catholic Church only?”

    Because they are the worst offenders. They also covered up their crimes.

    I detest the UN, IMHO we should withdraw from the UN asap. However, in this case the UN are stating a fact, it shocks me to see how many people are shooting the messenger instead of facing up to the on going evils of the disgusting Catholic church.

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  35. Zapper (843 comments) says:

    Are the catholic church the worst, bruv? How many heads have they chopped off in the name of religion lately?

    Kea, you have completely lost the plot in this thread.

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  36. Psycho Milt (1,974 comments) says:

    In fact, the Shakeshaft report said that the abuse in schools was 100 times worse than the Church.

    You know, you really, really should spend less time reading nutbar American polemic. The report said “the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests.” So, a kid is possibly (because Shakeshaft said that there is little info on incidence, predators or victims) 100x more likely to be abused by school staff than a priest – can you imagine why that might be? Perhaps because schoolteachers are 100x more likely to be predatory paedophiles than priests? Er, no – it’s because just about all kids go to school and they spend a lot of time there, while relatively few kids spend a lot of time with priests.

    So, yes – at the population level, a kid is much more likely to be abused in school than in church, for obvious reasons. Is it relevant to the question of whether there was systematic protection of predatory paedophile priests by the Catholic Church? Not even slightly.

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  37. thor42 (764 comments) says:

    @big bruv – “Because they are the worst offenders.”

    Bullshit.

    Is it the Catholic Church that is behind wars and violence from the Middle East to Somalia to Pakistan to Thailand and the Philippines? No.
    It is *Islam*.

    Is the Catholic Church responsible for flooding the US, UK, Europe and Australia with *millions* of people in the last few decades who follow an ideology hostile to the locals there? No.
    It is Islam.

    As for the U.N. – it is the most corrupt, inefficient, authoritarian, hypocritical, USELESS group of losers in the world. Their largest body, UNRWA, recently celebrated 70 years of babysitting the Fakestinians – as if 70 years of doing that is something worth celebrating.

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  38. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Is the Catholic Church responsible for flooding the US, UK, Europe and Australia with *millions* of people in the last few decades who follow an ideology hostile to the locals there? No.
    It is Islam.

    Yeah there are no Catholics in the US, UK, Europe and Australia LOL :)

    None flooding Africa either. You are disgusting lying bigot.

    [DPF: 20 demerits]

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  39. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    ZenTiger, you feel good about defending a genocidal organisation of child rapists ? I suspect you feel fine with it, given the damage religion has done to your mind and morals.

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  40. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    pcplod, if you are serious about those claims, you should go to the Police and the media, not just Kiwiblog, just saying.

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  41. Mobile Michael (364 comments) says:

    675 million of the 1.1 billion Catholics are not white. And as the trend is for less religion in Europe and growth in Asia so the proportion will continue to grow to criticise the Catholic Church is racist.

    Just using the same politically correct thinking that the UN is notorious for.

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  42. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    Perhaps because schoolteachers are 100x more likely to be predatory paedophiles than priests? Er, no – it’s because just about all kids go to school and they spend a lot of time there, while relatively few kids spend a lot of time with priests.

    Here’s a chart from the aforementioned report. Looking at this, I’m not convinced that hours of exposure is a good explanation.

    Table 7. Percent of Student Targets by
    Job Title of Offender
    Job Title Percent
    Teacher 18
    Coach 15
    Substitute Teachers 13
    Bus Driver 12
    Teacher’s Aide 11
    Other School Employee 10
    Security Guard 10
    Principal 6
    Counselor 5
    Total 100
    Source: Shakeshaft, 2003; AAUW, 2001

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  43. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    Kea is officially trolling. Just thought I might point that out.

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  44. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    BlairM, if I were trolling you would not be resorting to ad hominem and you would refute my position with facts and a reasoned argument. But you know you are wrong and rather than change your position, as a decent person would, you impotently cry troll.

    That and the fact you fail to address the child rape of the church tells me all I need to know about you.

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  45. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    BlairM: Well, you’ve got to admit he’s doing a good job of the fake outrage.

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  46. Scott (1,614 comments) says:

    The Catholic church has responded to the claims of the UN-
    “The Vatican promptly objected and its UN ambassador accused the committee of having betrayed the international body’s own objectives by allowing itself to be swayed by pro-gay ideologues. He said it appeared the committee simply hadn’t listened when the Holy See outlined all the measures it has taken to protect children.”

    I think the UN report is a lie. I think the idea of systematic abuse is a lie. It seems like an extremist report not worth the paper it is written on. I think the UN is useless and we should withdraw from it.

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  47. Scott (1,614 comments) says:

    I also have noted some of Kea’s more personally abusive posting and referred it to DPF.

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  48. iMP (2,149 comments) says:

    16 LETTERS sum up this moral hypocrisy…

    UN RWANDA IMPOTENT.

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  49. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Scott (1,563 comments) says:
    February 6th, 2014 at 7:25 pm
    I also have noted some of Kea’s more personally abusive posting and referred it to DPF.

    LOL :)

    Don’t like facing up to your own filth little man ?

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  50. EAD (314 comments) says:

    Q:Why does the UN hate the Catholic church?
    A: Because the Catholic Church built Western Civilization and the UN hates Western Civilization.

    The Catholic Church was the founding force of the university system, the investigator of science and the patron of the arts and architecture. The Church guided the evolution of International Law by examining the relationships between Christians and pagans, Europeans and other peoples. Catholic scholars presented economics long before Adam Smith and the Catholic concept of charity inspired conduct that was unthought-of in pre-Christian times. The Church’s vision of the status of human beings and natural rights (as opposed to rights that the Government would have us believe they are responsible for ordaining upon us) is what molded Western law and radically improved the role and status of woman. Catholic teachings put the individual first whereas the UN would rather have us all submit to being “global citizens” whereby anything can be done in the name of the collective.

    Venom, hatred, distrust, antipathy, and jealousy have been the hallmarks of much of liberal and anti-clerical criticism to the Roman Catholic Church from the likes of the UN who have truly distorted history in a most impressionable manner. Islam being a “religion of peace” being one of the most blatant distortions whereas in reality it’s value system will destroy everything we used to hold dear.

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  51. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    “UN RWANDA IMPOTENT.”

    Yep. Carried out the the Catholic Church as per links above.

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  52. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Q:Why does the UN hate the Catholic church?
    A: Because the Catholic Church built Western Civilization and the UN hates Western Civilization.

    So you consider raping boys, genocide, death and torture civilised values.

    You must be a Catholic.

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  53. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Scott (1,563 comments) says:
    February 6th, 2014 at 7:25 pm
    I also have noted some of Kea’s more personally abusive posting and referred it to DPF.

    Kea is very pleased he does not meet with the approval of a supporter of a child raping murdering and ignorant bronze age desert cult.

    I guess Scott longs for the days when being critical of the evil catholic church resulted in you being tortured to death.

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  54. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    I guess Scott longs for the days when being critical of the evil catholic church resulted in you being tortured to death.

    Like who?

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  55. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    I think the idea of systematic abuse is a lie.

    Countless vulnerable little kids raped, sodimised and brutalised for centuries and Scott reckons it is just a lie that it is systematic !.

    Not a word of condemnation from Scott. Protect the church at all costs. That is what matters to Scot.

    Just imagine someone denying and minimising child rapists on KB without the fog of religion. How do you think that would be received on KB usually ? Another example of how religion destroys morality.

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  56. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Fletch, read some history. I have given up trying to teach you.

    Anything to say about kids being brutally raped by clergy ? Have you actually read some of the accounts and specifics of what your priests did to those kids ? It is very disturbing and horrific. Often people knew something was going on, but just like you and Scott, they did nothing to protect the church.

    Have a think about yourself Fletch. You seem like a decent bloke. Step into the light.

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  57. nasska (9,489 comments) says:

    Wouldn’t the mental backflips required to excuse the church cause severe cognitive dissonance Kea?

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  58. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    Anything to say about kids being brutally raped by clergy ?

    Brutally raped?
    I don’t know where you get that from.
    Some children suffered abuse, yes. And it was wrong. Not all were raped. And I’m not sure where you got “brutally raped” from. You’re making it sound like they were Vikings or something.

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  59. nasska (9,489 comments) says:

    Never mind…..help is at hand! :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahkdsk1hbo8nq5a/Relief%202.jpg

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  60. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    Brendan O’Neil (an atheist, but a very fair and unbiased one) writes about abuse numbers…

    Last week the UK Independent reported that in America, ‘over 10,000 people have come forward to say they were raped as part of this misery-go-round’ overseen by His Holiness and His Lackeys. In Ireland alone, a tiny country of 4.5million people, ‘Thousands were raped in reform schools’, said a British broadsheet headline last year, ramming home the ugly truth of how many kids have been raped by the Catholic Church’s army of paedophile priests.

    But how true is this ugly truth? Were 10,000 children in America and thousands more in Ireland really raped by Catholic priests? In a word, no. Instead, what has happened is that in the increasingly caliginous, almost Inquisitorial mindset of sections of the New Atheist anti-pope lobby, every allegation of abuse against a Catholic priest – whether it involved sex talk or fondling or actual penile penetration – has been lumped together under the heading of ‘rape’, and every allegation has been described as an actual proven ‘rape’ regardless of whether it resulted in a legal trial, never mind a conviction.

    The term ‘paedophile priest’ has become such a part of everyday cultural lingo that most people, when they read in last week’s relatively respectable UK Independent that ‘over 10,000 children have come forward to say they were raped [by Catholic priests]’, would probably think, ‘Yeah, that’s possible’. But it isn’t true. The Independent was referring to a study commissioned in 2002 by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, which was published in 2004 under the heading ‘The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests and Deacons in the United States’. This study covered the period of 1950 to 2002, and it did indeed find that 10,000 individuals in the US – 10,667, to be precise – had made allegations of sexual abuse against priests (against 4,392 priests in total, around four per cent of the 109,694 Catholic priests active in the US between 1950 and 2002). But this doesn’t mean that these 10,000 ‘[came] forward to say they were raped’.

    The 10,667 made various allegations, ranging from verbal abuse (being forced to indulge in sex talk) to being shown pornography to being touched by a priest over or under their clothing. Then there were the more serious allegations, which included being coerced into mutual masturbation, oral sex and, in some instances, rape. Yet where 3,553 of the individuals claimed to have been touched over their clothing and 3,981 to have been touched under their clothing, a smaller number claimed to have been subjected to what is described in the report as ‘penile penetration or attempted penile penetration’, that is rape or attempted rape; 990 boys and 213 girls made this allegation – a total of 1,203 individuals, not 10,000.

    Moreover, if we are serious about such Enlightened ideals as justice and equality before the law, then we have to accept the fact that not all of these allegations were ultimately proven to be true. Out of the 10,000-plus allegations made against priests in America, 3,300 were not investigated at all because they were made after the accused priest had died (surely even the most riled anti-pope commentator accepts that a man who is no longer around to defend himself cannot be convicted of a crime). Of the 4,392 priests in America who were accused of sexual abuse in the period of 1950 to 2002, 1,021 were investigated by the police, and of these, 384 were charged, of whom 252 were convicted. So around six per cent of all American priests who had allegations made against them were finally convicted.

    And the article goes on to say that it is a similar story in Ireland.

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/9548/

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  61. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Fletch (5,490 comments) says:
    February 6th, 2014 at 8:21 pm
    Anything to say about kids being brutally raped by clergy ?

    Brutally raped?
    I don’t know where you get that from.
    Some children suffered abuse, yes. And it was wrong. Not all were raped. And I’m not sure where you got “brutally raped” from. You’re making it sound like they were Vikings or something.

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    I am speechless ! Here is what you are minimising and it gets worse. Way worse.

    [Father John Denham was in his 30s when he raped a 12-year-old boy across a school desk in 1977 and left him bleeding but silenced after threatening to tell the boy's violent father.

    In a Sydney court yesterday Denham, 70, said the word "guilty" 25 times to confirm another 18 victims, only three years after pleading guilty to molesting 39 boys.

    Then he was led away to the cells - the "sadistic" priest whose offences against one quiet boy, John Pirona, led to his committing suicide in July last year, aged 45. Mr Pirona's death and the letter he left, in which he spoke of "too much pain", became the catalyst for a federal royal commission into child sexual abuse.]

    http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1678644/priest-admits-rape-of-more-children/

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  62. nasska (9,489 comments) says:

    Fletch

    All of what you describe is technically rape…..a child cannot give consent.

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  63. ZenTiger (419 comments) says:

    I think Kea must be getting some of the information from that bastion of fine reporting, the BBC who uncovered a culture of child abuse where the members turned a blind eye to the actions. Oh hang on, that WAS the BBC. Saville turned out to be the tip of the iceberg.

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  64. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Brutally raped?
    I don’t know where you get that from.
    Some children suffered abuse, yes.

    Rampant depravity in Catholic priesthood exposed in trial

    The testimony so far has been horrifying, so what is it that is so vile about the culture of the Catholic priesthood that is being shown as rotten to the core?

    Maybe it is the evidence of a priest who joked about how hard it was to rape three young boys in one week.

    Maybe it was hearing that the Archdiocese of Philadelphia allowed a paedophile priest to remain in parish ministry for five years after psychiatrists described him as ‘a sick and dangerous man’.

    Maybe it is because a priest had a stable of boys rotate through his rectory bedroom, once raping two at the same time so neither thought he was playing favorites.

    Maybe it is hearing that a priest undressed a fifth grade boy in a small storage room, told him that God loved him, had him engage in oral intercourse and then ejaculated over the boy’s face.

    Maybe it is the new low of depravity to learn about a ‘sick’ priest who made schoolboys strip naked as they played Christ in a sadomasochistic play, and then whipped them with leather straps until they had cuts, bruises and welts on their bodies.

    http://www.vatileaks.com/pages/Articles/Rampant_depravity_in_Catholic_priesthood_exposed_in_trial.htm

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  65. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Parish priests were honoured guests in Catholic homes. The priest arranged for Pat’s devout mother to visit Carfin Grotto, leaving Pat with a priest friend of his. Pat remembers watching through the window while his mother disappeared into the grotto. As soon as she did, the priest turned to him. “I want you to do for me what you have done for your parish priest,” he said. Then he raped him. Afterwards, he tried to quieten the child’s tears before his mother returned. “God doesn’t like boys who cry. Be a soldier of Christ.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/07/catholic-priests-unmasked-god-boys

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  66. stephieboy (1,118 comments) says:

    I wondered where kea got to and I see ,stalking the KB message board here.But I can understand where DPFis truly coming from and I would have to say that the Catholic church would have nothing to worry about that sadly and tragically ineffectual organization the UN.Its human rights commission is a joke.As kea fully understands under the stranglehold of a cabal of Islamic Thoecracies , from the Sudan up to Saudi Arabia !thence to Iran and finally, Pakistan.
    It’s a share deliight to see Kea ‘s old mate Pat Condell tackle them head on in the context of this Cabal’s maudling and drooling hypocrisy in the UN and their old foe. Israel.

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  67. cha (3,529 comments) says:

    Brutally raped?
    I don’t know where you get that from.

    Read all about it.

    http://brokenrites.org.au/drupal/node/236

    http://www.andersonadvocates.com/Archdiocese-of-Chicago-Documents.aspx

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  68. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Fletch, February 2014 on Kiwiblog

    “Brutally raped?
    I don’t know where you get that from.
    Some children suffered abuse, yes.”

    Fletch, Scott, Zen Tiger etc are still defending this depravity and are willing to lie in order to do it. Christian morality on display for all to see.

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  69. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    Kea please, cut out the histrionics.

    For the record, my opinion on child rape is that I am against it. But I’m glad you care so much about raped children that you want to get angry with people you don’t know on a blog.

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  70. KevinH (1,128 comments) says:

    UN:
    The committee said it was “particularly concerned” that in dealing with allegations of child sex abuse, “the Holy See has consistently placed the preservation of the reputation of the church and the protection of the perpetrators above children’s best interests, as observed by several national commissions of inquiry.”

    That is an outrageous allegation to make, it is emotionally charged and biased.

    The Catholic Church responds:

    The Vatican responded testily to the findings, saying that though it would submit them “to a thorough study and examination”, it regretted what it perceived to be interference in its affairs. The statement was thought to refer to the committee’s remarks on contraception and abortion.

    “The Holy See does … regret to see in some points of the concluding observations an attempt to interfere with Catholic church teaching on the dignity of human person and in the exercise of religious freedom,” said a Vatican statement.

    “The Holy See reiterates its commitment to defending and protecting the rights of the child, in line with the principles promoted by the convention on the rights of the child and according to the moral and religious values offered by Catholic doctrine.”

    It is reasonable and fair that the Catholic Church concludes an internal inquiry on the issue of child abuse within the Church before embarking on a programme of action and reconcilliation. Anything less than due process would derail the inquiry and not achieve the outcome the U.N. seeks.

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  71. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    BlairM thinks it is “histrionics” to be angry about this. He seems uncomfortable talking about it.

    Reassuringly he tell us he is “against it” though. [the brutal sodimisation of little kids]. What a guy !

    FFS ! :(

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  72. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    stephieboy, wades in and blames …. THE MUSLIMS !!!

    LOL :)

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  73. cha (3,529 comments) says:

    That is an outrageous allegation to make, it is emotionally charged and biased

    Really.

    http://brokenrites.org.au/drupal/node/55

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/religion/Cardinal-Dolan-sought-to-protect-money-from-claims-struggled-with-Vatican-to-defrock-abusers-b9943953z1-213832541.html

    http://www.bishop-accountability.org/bankruptcy.htm

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  74. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    Kea, of course you can google and dig up cases that are bad (and they are bad and there is no excuse for what happened), but as I have said, the rate of abuse in the Church is no more than the abuse in secular society.

    Newsweek did an article on it. – http://www.newsweek.com/id/236096

    Perhaps society is using the Church as a mirror and not liking what it sees.
    As I pointed out in the article I posted before – in the period from 1950 to 2002, 4% of priests had abuse allegations made against them, and less than 10% of those allegations were of rape.

    In the end 6% of those 4% of priests were convicted.

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  75. Ed Snack (1,535 comments) says:

    Kea, you’re a disgusting piece of shit, repeat that Kea, a turd who speaks like the shit he is. Fact, you are more likely to be abused at a school than in a Catholic Church institution, so where’s your hatred for that. You are more likely to be abused by a step parent than a RC priest, where’s your venom for step parents. So go fuck yourself buddy.

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  76. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    Fletch, Scott, Zen Tiger etc are still defending this depravity and are willing to lie in order to do it. Christian morality on display for all to see.

    Where abouts am I lying? Of course I admit that there was wrongdoing. It was bad and it was shameful. Most of the abuse occurred in the 1960s-1980s, but now the Church is getting on with it and is likely the safest place in the world for children.

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  77. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    A Christian writes

    “Ed Snack (1,309 comments) says:
    February 6th, 2014 at 8:51 pm
    Kea, you’re a disgusting piece of shit, repeat that Kea, a turd who speaks like the shit he is. Fact, you are more likely to be abused at a school than in a Catholic Church institution, so where’s your hatred for that. You are more likely to be abused by a step parent than a RC priest, where’s your venom for step parents. So go fuck yourself buddy.”

    Could you imagine a pedophile appearing in Court and using the defense that they should not be singled out because everyone else is doing it ?

    Could you imagine the hysteria on KB if someone did what you just did, without the fog of religion ?

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  78. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    Could you imagine a pedophile appearing in Court and using the defense that they should be be singled out because everyone else is doing it ?

    As I have said, even one child abused is too many. But in 52 years (between 1950 and 2002), 252 priests in America were convicted of abuse. I’m not trying to make this a numbers game, but I’m wondering what the numbers were like in secular society?

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  79. nasska (9,489 comments) says:

    The RC Church created an almost impossible task for itself when they transferred clergy involved in paedophilia into different parishes rather than address the problems on the spot.

    Perception is everything & what the atheist or protestant layman perceives stinks.

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  80. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    So far we have had one brave christian come forward and make a strong statement against the brutal rape of kids, advising us that he is …. “against it” !

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  81. nasska (9,489 comments) says:

    ….”I’m wondering what the numbers were like in secular society?”…..

    Far higher than they should be probably Fletch but the leaders of secular society are not preaching piety, virtue & moral standards. When priests fall from grace they fall a lot further than atheists.

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  82. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    252 priests in America were convicted of abuse.

    The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors
    by Catholic Priests and Deacons in the United States
    A Research Study Conducted by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice

    A total of 10,667 individuals made allegations of child sexual abuse by priests. Of those who alleged abuse, the file contained information that 17.2% of them had siblings who were also allegedly abused.

    http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/PriestAbuseScandal.htm

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  83. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    nasska, yeah but everyone is doing it arn’t they ??? :(

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  84. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    The RC Church created an almost impossible task for itself when they transferred clergy involved in paedophilia into different parishes rather than address the problems on the spot.

    They were only doing what secular society was doing as well.

    I have seen newspaper articles criticizing officials for not reporting acts of abuse to the civil authorities during years when there were no child protective services and the particular behaviors involved were not criminalized yet. It is fair for criticism of decisions made in the ’60s and ’70s to focus on interpretation of moral behavior, weakness in the resolve of leaders or even the disregard of procedures set out in canon law. By the same token, it is essential to separate this from expectations that are based on the laws and standards of today.

    We began studying sexual abuse in the 1970s, discovered it caused real harm in 1978, and realized perpetrators were difficult to rehabilitate in the 1990s. During the ’70s when we were sending offenders to treatment, the criminal justice system was doing the very same thing with convicted offenders — sending them to treatment instead of prison.

    At the time, it was believed they could be cured with relative ease. This is a very young body of knowledge, and as we sort through both valid and questionable criticisms, we must consider the historical context of any given episode.

    ~ Monica Applewhite is one of the foremost experts on screening, monitoring and policy development for the prevention of sexual abuse and risk management for those with histories of sexual offending.

    http://www.ncregister.com/register_exclusives/change_in_vatican_culture/

    And from the Shakeshaft reports –

    In 1994, Shakeshaft published a report based on a four-year study of 225 sexual abuse complaints—184 in New York State and 41 in other states—against teachers made to federal authorities from 1990 to 1994.[2] She found that “All of the accused admitted sexual abuse of a student, but none of the abusers was reported to the authorities, and only 1 percent lost their license to teach. Only 35 percent suffered negative consequences of any kind, and 39 percent chose to leave their school district, most with positive recommendations. Some were even given an early retirement package.”

    In 2004, Shakeshaft published a 156-page report for the United States Department of Education titled Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature.[1] In it, she stated that nearly 10% of U.S. public school students, or 4.5 million students, have been the victims of sexual harassment, rape or sexual abuse. The literature review describes among other topics: prevalence of educator sexual misconduct, offender characteristics, targets of educator sexual misconduct, and recommendations for prevention of educator sexual misconduct.[1]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charol_Shakeshaft

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  85. ZenTiger (419 comments) says:

    PS Kea, before you go off on another tangent, I could be convinced that the death penalty is appropriate for pedophiles who brutally abuse children – whether they are priests, teachers, social workers, step parents, comedians or foster parents. There is no excuse for such actions and I do not condone it.

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  86. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    ZenTiger , of course you don’t condone it. I know that. What distresses me is the tepid response when religion is involved, from people who would be outraged normally.

    Fletch seems like a decent bloke too. But the some of the stuff he has said today in an effort to defend the church is disappointing.

    I think I have made my point.

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  87. Scott (1,614 comments) says:

    As I mentioned earlier I think the report is full of lies and gross exaggeration. For a balanced response try this -http://cvcomment.org/2014/02/05/how-the-holy-see-was-ambushed-by-a-un-kangaroo-court/

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  88. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Look here is Snott trying to shoot the messenger again. Maybe he should run to DPF and complain.

    I do not trust the UN either. But the evidence is overwhelming from multiple sources.

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  89. ZenTiger (419 comments) says:

    The problem Kea, is your approach is to find specific cases and make wild extrapolations or connections to other cases, until it’s “all Catholics are pedophiles, all priests are pedophiles.”

    If German tourists went around saying “All Kiwis are brutal violent thugs and it is embedded in their culture” I understand their point of view, but I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that that would be an incorrect statement, and worth countering.

    Fletch makes a good point above about the fact many organisations got it completely wrong about pedophiles in the 60s, 70s and 80s. When such people, adept at lying and manipulation, pleaded that it was a momentary lapse of judgment that would not be repeated, they were often believed. Partly I think because the crime to most people is unthinkable. It would be natural to want to believe that this couldn’t happen again. One particular bad case of a priest caught and reported to the police, was that the courts found him guilty and punished him with 3 years of therapy – and then back into society. He left the priesthood and became a teacher, all with the blessing of the court system.

    Was it back in 2004 (I think), in NZ, that corrections released a known pedophile into the community, sited him next door to a family with 2 very young children, and did not tell the community. The man went on to abuse those kids for months before the parents found out. You’d think all of the learning society should have got from how pedophiles operate from looking at the church, the scouts, the schools and we’d know better by 2004, but we don’t. Yet the institution leading that reform process is actually the Catholic Church. If we care about kids, the same sunlight needs to be turned on state institutions. We can’t undo the past, but we can learn from it. The press puts more into a headline from a case from the 80s than they do to the swathe of cases emerging from only 10 years ago in NZ run institutions. Time to fix it.

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  90. questions (132 comments) says:

    Can you lot not read?

    UN report on the Vatican fails to mention religions other than Catholicism and you lot go ape shit.

    Sensitive bunch aren’t you.

    Anyone here got any idea why a report on the Vatican might not mention religions other than Catholicism?

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  91. kowtow (6,690 comments) says:

    questions

    Read the last sentence of DPF’s post……or don’t you take your own advice?

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  92. RichardX (288 comments) says:

    Fletch (5,495 comments) says:
    February 6th, 2014 at 9:15 pm

    They were only doing what secular society was doing as well.

    Pitiful inexcusable comment from someone who believes morals can only come from god

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  93. SPC (4,634 comments) says:

    To answer DPF, it’s because the Vatican is a non member state permanent observer at the UN.

    http://www.population-security.org/crlp-94-07.htm

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  94. SPC (4,634 comments) says:

    The UN Human Rights Council examines the human rights performance of member states and those with observer status.

    There would be criticism of the human rights performance of some member states in part because of the influence of religion within their nation state. But that would not be a direct criticism of the religion any more than criticism of the Vatican would be on Christianity. The Vatican itself would not associate its own human rights failings with any flaw in Christianity.

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  95. SPC (4,634 comments) says:

    It is simply a fact that organisations, would if able, operate in certain (selfish) ways when members are under accusation. The accusation is a PR problem for the organisation, and there is also the tendency to feel for the colleague against whom the claims were made (in the absence of proof) until and unless the claims were proven/corroborated.

    But as examining the claims would of itself involve inquiries that increased the risk of unwanted negative publicity … the selfish organisation would seek to avoid this. Thus moving priests against whom complaints were made. No more local offending by the same individual could be guaranteed. And if further accusations were made against the same priest at another location then the church could know … but only if there was oversight and reporting. If not the constant moving and reoffending would go on without end.

    The Catholic Church had the long term practice of asserting its independence from national/secular authority to enable its resort to selfish organisational practice – practice that other organisations cannot resort to, and thus other organisations are often under an obligation to have more transparent procedures.

    It is an irony that its claim to exceptionalism (that enabled the abuse to go on as long as it did) is the reason for the UN Report. And even more that there is subsequent complaint at the singling out of this “western” institution. Oh the world is so unfair … .

    FFS, the Church should confess its wrong doings, it deemed itself and its claimed place in the world and in the faith as more important than the children at risk – yet it claims to pro innocent life. Confess the wrong or become a moral hypocrite.

    Then establish best organisational practice in dealing with complaints about behaviour by those of the church.

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  96. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    IGNORE THE TROLL, people!

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  97. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    That’s right BlairM, you just put your fingers in your ears and chant your mantra of “troll”.

    What ever you do, don’t face up to the wrongs of the church or the thousands of raped kids. That is what Jesus would want isn’t it ?

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  98. martyb7 (1 comment) says:

    The UN and the church are both ‘man’ (but this latest ‘commission” seems to be a sisterhood get your tits out?)made kwangos both being about as much use as an arsehole on the elbow. What’s Jesus got to do with such organizations that reflect political opinions of ‘rights’ stone throwers-activists-lobbyists and let’s face it stupid mothers, blah blah blah. It’s the symbolism that’s the giveaway of the steady decline into the ditch,blindly led. Anyone realize the multi-symbolic act of the bucket of fish dumped(without sin caste the first stone?) near John Key at Waitangi “celebrations”. Much ‘closer’ to home.Our divisive/derisive founding constitutional document. And something of a “celebration?” I’m loving it. Best show on earth this circus!

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  99. ChardonnayGuy (1,023 comments) says:

    While I believe the Catholic Church needs to be held accountable and institute transparency for victims of clergy pedophilia, I do share your views about Islamist violation of human rights in nations like Somalia, Sudan and Iraq. Not to mention Buddhist monk attacks on Muslims in Burma/Myanmar and Hindu supremacist anti-Muslim sectarian violence in India, and Christian/Muslim sectarian intercommunal violence in Nigeria- as well as the actions of Islamist fundamentalist militia aligned with Boko Harum in Northern Nigeria. In other words, it’s a mosaic. It is the absence of transparency and accountability and resort to interpersonal sectarian violence against religious minorities and other marginal social groups that should be under focus here. Unfortunately, Christians, Hindus and sectarian Buddhists don’t have clean hands themselves in this context- although I concede that indeed, some Christians are targets of sectarian discrimination and violence. On the other hand, so are some Muslims.

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  100. Brian Smaller (3,915 comments) says:

    I must have gone to the wrong Catholic sunday school and church when I was a kid. I wasn’t molested and checking with my siblings, none of them were either.

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  101. SPC (4,634 comments) says:

    ChardonnayGuy, the sectarian violence and the violence against women and children would be issues for UN Human Rights Council reports on any and all nation state members and observer status groups. As would related denial of human rights based on sectarian group identity, gender and sexuality.

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  102. Aredhel777 (271 comments) says:

    You really are a bigot Kea.

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  103. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    Key needs to show the world that NZ will not support the idea that female muslim children should have their ‘excitable bit’ cut off.

    He needs to announce that kiwi muslim girls are not allowed NZ child passports so that their mothers can take them to Indonesia to have the ‘cut’.

    The Australian Federal police announced last year that they new exactly where kiwi and Australian girls were being taken to in Indonesia to have the ‘cut’. So far the NZ government has failed to talk about the matter.

    ….but smack your child in public and you will have the full force of the NZ police come down on you…….what a fucken joke!

    The Police Minister needs a public grilling about this dispicable abuse!

    Mr Craig might well do just that! :cool:

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