An alternate flag design

March 18th, 2014 at 7:00 am by David Farrar

New Flag Lineup

 

Sent in by a reader. Not bad. I like it.

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143 Responses to “An alternate flag design”

  1. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    It’s a white feather.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 26 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    yeah me too

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  3. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Leave the bloody thing alone . . . next we will have the mungies wanting their flag used.

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  4. RF (1,399 comments) says:

    It’s got my vote

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  5. PaulP (150 comments) says:

    Big Bruv, I can see the similarity between the fern and a feather. Many people wouldn’t know that the Canadian flag is a maple either so I’m not too fussed if it is a stylised fern that is chosen.

    The question I have for anyone is whether the red and blue mean anything or is it just a reflection of the current flag? Personally not a fan of bright red.

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  6. ciaron (1,434 comments) says:

    When Labour (eventually) gets in it will change the big blue bit to red, and the little red bit to green.

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  7. Concerned (41 comments) says:

    It’s the first that’s turned my head. I might even salute!

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  8. EAD (1,087 comments) says:

    Good idea,

    just as the Chinese Credit bubble starts to burst,

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/commodities/10642184/Gold-price-signals-China-credit-bubble-bursting-as-investors-seek-safety.html
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-11/magic-collateral-frank-look-sheer-credit-horror-about-be-unleashed-china

    distract the populace with a trivial but emotionally charged debate to remove the focus from your disastrous economic mismanagement that has increased NZ Govt Debt by 550% in 6 short years to $65 billion – i.e. we’ve added 6.5 times more debt in 6 years than the previous 160+ years of Central Government combined.

    National should stop being social engineers and stop this toxic legacy of passing on enormous debts for our future generations. It’s Act or Conservative for me.

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  9. rouppe (971 comments) says:

    I don’t see a need to change, but if there is going to be one, then something like this is satisfactory.

    1) It retains the southern cross
    2) It retains the blue, which I like. It can easily represent the sea that surrounds us
    3) I think a fern is preferable to a dumpy bird that can’t fly, even though it is our ‘national bird’.
    4) I can take or leave the red. It’s not uncommon for another colour, and it does work transitioning over the spine of the fern, but we’d need to understand what the red means.

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  10. eszett (2,410 comments) says:

    I do like it as well, I can imagine it as our flag.
    Far better than just a silverfern against a black background.

    Picturing it against other Nations flags like in the picture does make it look realistic.

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  11. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Agree rouppe the red doesn’t do it for me and not sure where this had come from. Another shade of blue may be better to represent we are stuck in the middle of a big hunk of ocean

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  12. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    EAD: Debt would be no problem if your Labour mates had not set the country on a path to destruction with benefits for everyone in sundry who is too lazy to work, preferring lives of breeding, bludging, boozing, drugging, and leeching. Until we can strike these payments from the books, we will have deficits. We need a term of radical right-wing policies, then we will return to a form of fiscal sanity.

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  13. tas (625 comments) says:

    Beats a black pirate flag IMHO. Not sure if this design will look dated in a few years.

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  14. hj (7,023 comments) says:

    Here is a reason to keep the Union Jack on the flag (and a reason the social engineers want to change it):

    Pakeha culture shares some ingredients with its largely European cultures of origin: such as the English language, the Westminster Parliamentary system, the traditions and the conventions of the Open Society, in which every person is entitled to seek truth through a process of unfettered investigation and open disputation. But the forms and the proportions in which those imported ingredients have coalesced in New Zealand has made them somewhat different in character from their antecedents and hence characteristic of Pakeha culture rather than of European culture.

    Allegiance to One’s Origins
    The Consequences of Belief
    Michael King, Historian
    http://www.sof.org.nz/origins.htm

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  15. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Just a mess. Do not want.

    Just the fern, on a very dark blue background please.

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  16. KevOB (267 comments) says:

    When I saw the topmost one awhile ago I instinctively felt it was my NZ flag. The red, white & blue link us to the past. I have seen a variant with black replacing the red but that raises feelings Maori flag strife which we can do without.

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  17. The only red for me is that of Manchester United (60 comments) says:

    Looks like it was designed by a year nine art student. It has too much going on in it. A white fern, the Southern Cross, two hemispheres of colour. Messy.

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  18. ShawnLH (5,125 comments) says:

    Meh. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Still, that one is better than other suggestions Iv’e seen.

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  19. mandk (994 comments) says:

    What’s an alternate flag?
    One you use every other day?

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  20. tvb (4,425 comments) says:

    Not bad at all. The Union Jack on our flag is what looks very dated. The richness of the colours is what appeals to me and of course the Southern Cross. I guess the red/blue could represent our political traditions.

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  21. Auberon (873 comments) says:

    Yes, if we must go down this course then it’s a good starter for 10. What I think it lacks is symmetry. I would rather see a blue background, with the Southern Cross centred, and the silver fern inside the Southern Cross.

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  22. Odakyu-sen (655 comments) says:

    I don’t think we should change the flag until we become a republic or undergo some other fundamental constitutional change (like become a state of Oz). (And I wouldn’t rush into that either.)

    NZ is still an immature country. Give it time to figure out what it wants to be, then let it change its flag when it grows up.

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  23. Nigel Kearney (1,013 comments) says:

    It is less bad than any of the alternatives I have seen suggested so far. As I have said, I think the flag changing brigade would be happy with an upside down donkey flag as long as the union jack was gone.

    I do agree with Rouppe that the red has to symbolize something. You can’t just chuck it in there because it looks pretty.

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  24. Daphne Whitethigh (13 comments) says:

    Not ‘alternate”. You mean ‘alternative’.

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  25. Fisiani (1,039 comments) says:

    Any flag should be minus the little union flag in the corner. NZ of the 21st century needs a flag which is not mistaken for the Australian flag. The version above or some variant thereof would be acceptable to me. I think its great that we can have a competition and anyone can submit a proposal. What will emerge is bound to be better than what we currently have.

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  26. double d (225 comments) says:

    isn’t that the Canadian flag?

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  27. kowtow (8,487 comments) says:

    The red symbolises all the blood spilt in the incessant wars among the maori before honkey turned up.

    Blue represents the Tories trying to deny our British heritage.

    The white feather? Well of course it’s the surrender of the permanent political class to the maori grievance industry.

    This flag represents the current state of Aotearoa (previously New Zealand) very well.All that’s missing is something to include Chinese “investment”.The Red can double up for that.Job done.Now let’s move on to creating the Republic.

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  28. EAD (1,087 comments) says:

    @ igm 7.46am –

    I’m hardly what you would call “Labours mate”. In my opinion, this out of control spending we are facing is the political reality of fiat money. Once money can be created at will, then debt based spending can be normalised. Politicians know that if they will have one or two terms of office, typically 3 – 6 years, then it is likely that they can run a deficit for that time, and secure their popularity and legacy through supplying the masses with bread and circuses. The bill is simply left for the next incumbent and it will be someone else’s problem.

    Read what I have said again – we have run up 6.5 times more debt in less than 6 years despite the lowest interest rates in our history borrowing more than ALL OTHER NZ GOVERNMENT in history COMBINED, despite the allegation that we are running a tight ship. Just because you have access to the printing press – you can’t forever keep living an economically fraudulent way and the sooner we take the pain, the easier it will be to bear. If we don’t, we will keep sleepwalking towards an era of darkness like the Romans.

    The truth is that the modern social democratic states of the twenty-first century are fundamentally sick. Our civilisation is in crisis and whoever we elect, Politicians always end up in charge, and their ratchet of hope and change runs only one way. We cannot go on like this forever, but if a so-called right wing government with an absolute majority can’t or won’t reverse this trend how are we going to stop?

    Never mind eh, there is a flag to discuss.

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  29. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    I am just sick of red white and blue on flags.

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  30. SGA (1,044 comments) says:

    Brian Smaller at 8:43 am

    I am just sick of red white and blue on flags.

    Chartreuse, lilac, and beige, perhaps? :-)

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  31. hj (7,023 comments) says:

    Personally I don’t care too mach about the flag but I’m suspicious of the social engineering:
    1. our flag wont represent our immigrant population , however , that was a BIGGY we weren’t consulted about and our culture (and cohesiveness of our society) is under attack from real estate/construction sector/multiculturalism.
    2. Mt Cook > Mt Cook (Aoraki)> Aoraki (Mt Cook).
    3. Ideologically sodden public service and academia.

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  32. itstricky (1,832 comments) says:

    The only red for me is that of Manchester United says:
    Messy

    …like a three-nil drubbing

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  33. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    I reckon it would look better without the red…and lose the fern- And maybe put a Union Jack in the top left corner? That would be a flag that represents OUR history…

    * Besides the pictured flag would never be chosen- There is nothing that represents our precious ‘Tangata Whenua’ OR our beloved ‘Rainbow Community’…

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  34. Mrs Trellis (34 comments) says:

    $10 million for the fucking referendum already, then the costs begin…..
    S’pose it’s OK if you are a flag manufacturer :)

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  35. dirtbag (22 comments) says:

    Hhhhhm. Not sure. My preference is status quo but if I’m outvoted it beats the shit out of a koru!
    Or something even more “cultural”

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  36. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    no chance the new flag ends up looking anything like this.

    it will look like something that came out of 3rd form maori art class.

    still, maybe a good lesson for those who want a constitution drawn up. a dress rehearsal in how whitey dont matter an its all about the bros and the free shit we can give em

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  37. CJPhoto (221 comments) says:

    I like it but question why is the top corner red. Having said that, it probably looks better in red than the alternatives – all blue, black or green.

    It does lack symmetry but I dont think that is a problem.

    It does look like a feather but I think it will be know as the ‘silver fern’, just like the Canadian is the ‘Mable leaf’

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  38. CJPhoto (221 comments) says:

    Forgot to meantion the other test – how easy is it for a 7 year old to draw in school. I am not sure this one passes.

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  39. wf (442 comments) says:

    I like it. It’s clear and distinctive. The Southern Cross should stay on the blue background (the sky). The red, well I’m not sure what it is supposed to represent, but it’s a good color balance to the blue.
    The fern design could be made more realistic in order to differentiate from a feather, which seems to worry some people but that might mute the graphic design. Personally speaking, I like feathers, lol.

    If the Aussies changed their flag, it would be yellow and green with a kangaroo – do you see what sport does to the national image?

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  40. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Agreed with Dime- People are fucking kidding themselves if they think ‘our’ new flag will be anything other than a Maori design..

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  41. iMP (2,385 comments) says:

    This image resonates with some only because MOST OF IT is the current flag. It’s a cut n paste.

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  42. jcuk (687 comments) says:

    I wonder where the Aussies would place a kangaroo or K.bear on their flag? The extra star cramps things.

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  43. stephieboy (3,101 comments) says:

    Long knives ,let’s wait and see re Maori input and design .The proposed design gets full marks from me and is a big step forward. Naturally it’s not surprising to see the moans and whimpering from the British Empire loyalist league rabble who are permanently living in a dim distant colonial past.
    Dime, your obviously unwell.!

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  44. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    big bruv (12,192 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 7:05 am
    It’s a white feather.

    I have to agree. Whilst the ‘kiwis’ are fully conversant with the image as a fern leaf, and it has been seen on the world stage in sports etc, when placed on a dark background, in white – it resembles a ‘white feather’ – a traditional sign of cowardice.

    Like it or not, many viewing it will determine it as that. Besides, it is not meant to be white – but silver.

    I also agree with Longknives and others, if the debate is held in the current environment, there is only one group that are likely to be represented in the end product.

    Leave it alone – the time is not right.

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  45. Mark (1,488 comments) says:

    I like it also. The English have little or no interest in NZ and why should they, we sit on the opposite side of the world and gripe about our perception of some historical entitlement for trade access and working holidays. NZ has little or no relevance to a modern Great Britain.

    Equally the Monarchy is no longer relevant to NZ and one suspects that the flag is the first step towards removing the English Monarch as the NZ head of state. A move that is long overdue.

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  46. Crusader (314 comments) says:

    Less is more. Why the need for the fern/feather? Take out the Union Jack and leave the southern cross. Voila.

    http://broadbentjames.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/proposed-new-zealand-flag-in-recent.html

    So many designs are being put forward, mostly looking like corporate logos or art class projects. You could have all different races each wanting their own symbol on a square of cloth and it risks becoming a patchwork quilt of Maori/British/other European/Pasifica/Chinese/Indian/South African designs.

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  47. Mark (1,488 comments) says:

    “Leave it alone – the time is not right”.

    I have heard this statement so many times in the last 30 years it is now farcical.

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  48. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    The Canadian Maple leaf is very distinctive and cannot be misunderstood to represent anything negative by those that don’t know what it is. However, the white fern leaf, if not recognised as the ‘silver fern’ carries with it the similarity to the white feather and the sign of cowardice. That is not acceptable – especially considering our nations contribution to the various wars, where our ancestors have gone willingly to fight in battles that were not of their making. Not that I’m likely to have any say, the choices will be made by our cultural heritage, but I seriously object to anything that represents our country which allows it to be possibly perceived in such a negative way.

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  49. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    You have to have the Southern Cross on the Flag!

    The Southern Cross will suit both Christian and atheist, as be it by God’s design or that of ‘evolution’ it will remain so above NZ until that of God’s design or evolution. Not one earthly being can take it away – so why take it off the flag?

    You will be getting rid of the other 3 Crosses anyway – that of The Crosses of St’s George, Andrew and Patrick.[England & Whales, Scotland, and Ireland.

    People need a Cross to fight under as there are no ‘atheists in the foxholes’ as the Military says. And those who are interned here during war time – such as the Japanese – shall be sheltered under it. And people need a Cross to live under too.

    The God hating National and Labour parties don’t want anyone living under a Cross – be it you or the next generations – but the commie progs will ALWAYS be living under one!

    They may as well get used to it and keep it on the flag. :cool:

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  50. CJPhoto (221 comments) says:

    The military put the fern on the grave of fallen soldiers. Obviously they have no concern it is mistaken as a feather.

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  51. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Mark (1,283 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 10:08 am

    And you’ll probably hear it for another 30 years, until there is some kind of disaster/world war or whatever, that changes the way we think about ourselves and the world, and leads to a more equitable way of prioritizing such things.

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  52. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    The fern doesn’t look like a feather anyway.

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  53. gazzmaniac (2,307 comments) says:

    If the Aussies changed their flag, it would be yellow and green with a kangaroo

    Very big IF – I don’t see it happening. But IF they did, they’d probably have some variant on the current white Southern Cross on a blue background. The Southern Cross is as much an Australian icon as the Kangaroo. Southern Cross tattoos are pretty common over here.

    New Zealand could lead the charge and have the Southern Cross (red with white border) on a blue background. That would be the ONLY alternative flag that I would consider. Stars don’t change on timescales that we can perceive, national icons and identities do.

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  54. Yoza (1,875 comments) says:

    Scrap the Union Jack immediately, there is no place on our flag for an act of symbolic deference to a former empire in terminal decline. Just use the Southern Cross without the Union Jack as a temporary measure until something better turns up.

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  55. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Harriet

    I agree, having the Southern Cross on the flag is a must.

    If we absolutely have to change it (and we don’t) then personally I would like to see something on it that represents what every Kiwi has in common – and that is that all of us or our ancestors had to cross the oceans to get here – none of us originated from the ‘land’ as such.

    But that won’t happen.

    If the referendum decides the flag needs to be changed, the resulting ‘committee’ that makes the decisions on what is featured will be made up of disproportionate representation that will ensure only one group’s heritage is dominant. That is no way to be looking towards our future.

    @ mikenmild

    The fern doesn’t look like a feather to us, because we know what it is. But sometimes, depending on how it is drawn, it looks more like a feather than a leaf, and that is how those who don’t know about the silver fern will perceive it.

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  56. ShawnLH (5,125 comments) says:

    “Scrap the Union Jack immediately, their is no place on our flag for an act of symbolic deference to a former empire”

    It is deference to our history, our culture, and the crown, all good things.

    It’s always ‘Year Zero’ for the Pol Pot fan club.

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  57. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    It’s always ‘Year Zero’ for the Pol Pot fan club.

    Never a truer word was said.

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  58. cha (4,020 comments) says:

    People need a Cross to fight under as there are no ‘atheists in the foxholes’ as the Military says.

    Take it away Mr Vonnegut.

    The sermon was based on what he claimed was a well-known fact, that there were no Atheists in foxholes. I asked Jack what he thought of the sermon afterwards, and he said, “There’s a chaplain who never visited the front.

    – Hocus Pocus

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  59. timmydevo (53 comments) says:

    Any flag as long as it’s not silver fern on black!

    http://postimg.org/image/x4mzieijn/

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  60. mavxp (483 comments) says:

    Replace the red in the upper left quadrant with Forest Green and you have something that actually looks like it would represent New Zealand.

    Green hills, Blue Ocean, The Fern = native flora, and our star constellation, which all our ancestors (Polynesian, Asian and European) would have seen in the sky when they arrived here. Yup that would do it.

    No need for blood red, no need for Roman instruments of torture or symbols of Christian mythology (saints crosses linked to mythological stories of ancient relics arriving in Old Blighty to create awe in the minds of the superstitious heathen). No need to favour one culture above another.

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  61. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    People need a Cross to fight under as there are no ‘atheists in the foxholes’ as the Military says.

    Take it away Mr Vonnegut.

    The sermon was based on what he claimed was a well-known fact, that there were no Atheists in foxholes. I asked Jack what he thought of the sermon afterwards, and he said, “There’s a chaplain who never visited the front.

    – Hocus Pocus
    ———————————

    It’s because the Military Chaplain was stationed with the Navy. He spoke about those who were atheists onboard a sinking naval vessel. And used mthe word ‘foxhole’ to get the message over that it concerned all who were at war.

    -Truth. Read up on it.

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  62. Ashley Schaeffer (487 comments) says:

    The flag shown is the Kyle Lockwood flag. I think the red in the upper left represents Maori. It’s probably the only alternative design that I’ve seen that I like because of it’s similarities to our existing flag. I could co-exist happily with this flag.

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  63. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    There’s never been any cowardice associated with the silver fern, and it’s often been associated with respect and bravery.

    Those purportedly concerned about the look of the fern seem to lack the courage to create our own identity in the 21st century.

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  64. wf (442 comments) says:

    “Replace the red in the upper left quadrant with Forest Green and you have something that actually looks like it would represent New Zealand.”

    No. Forest green has an Islamic reference in my book.

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  65. JMS (330 comments) says:

    It’s because the Military Chaplain was stationed with the Navy. He spoke about those who were atheists onboard a sinking naval vessel. And used mthe word ‘foxhole’ to get the message over that it concerned all who were at war.

    Doesn’t make God any more real.

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  66. ShawnLH (5,125 comments) says:

    “Doesn’t make God any more real.”

    Doesn’t make Him any less real either. :)

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  67. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    “There are no atheists in foxholes” – or more likely atheists are less likely to share their fears with chaplains.

    Origin

    The origin of the quotation is uncertain. U. S. Military Chaplain William Thomas Cummings may have said it in a field sermon during the Battle of Bataan in 1942, though scholars have been unable to find a firsthand witness. Other sources credit Lieutenant Colonel Warren J. Clear, who was also at Bataan, or Lieutenant Colonel William Casey.

    But the phrase is most often attributed to war correspondent Ernie Pyle.

    It was also quoted by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in remarks broadcast from the White House as part of a February 7, 1954, American Legion Program.

    With slightly different wording, the statement appears much earlier in press reports dating from the end of the First World War, while a similar concept has been sought in Plato’s Laws.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes

    There were no foxholes in Plato’s time.

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  68. ShawnLH (5,125 comments) says:

    “Those purportedly concerned about the look of the fern seem to lack the courage to create our own identity in the 21st century.”

    No, we have the courage to accept the identity we already have, and no adolescent need to create one out of thin air.

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  69. JMS (330 comments) says:

    Forest green has an Islamic reference in my book.

    Only if used largely by itself.
    Same goes for red regarding communism.

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  70. JMS (330 comments) says:

    Doesn’t make Him any less real either.

    Nothing can :)

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  71. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    All you people saying that the fern looks like the white feather of cowardice should remember that the Divisional Symbol of the 2nd New Zealand Division that fought in North Africa, Greece, Crete and Italy for five years was the Silver Fern – White on Black background. The cap badge that every soldier wore had two silver ferns with the motto “Onwards”.

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  72. Fentex (978 comments) says:

    we have run up 6.5 times more debt in less than 6 years despite the lowest interest rates in our history

    What do you mean “despite”? If you have a need to borrow then doing so when interest rates are low is the time to do it. If you were to improve a property or risk an investment and need capital then taking advantage of low interests is the thing to do.

    Complain that we borrow to fund operations rather than capital/infrastructure improvements if you please, but it makes no sense to complain about borrowing because interest rates are low.

    borrowing more than ALL OTHER NZ GOVERNMENT in history COMBINED

    If your complain that fiat money ruins currency values then this isn’t an important complaint, is it? Of course sums will become greater if money’s value is is undermined and it will mean nothing in and of itself that numbers get bigger. What matters is the proportional amounts (debt to assets, interest to income) and by those measures NZ isn’t badly off.

    Mostly because rather than drop taxes Labour repaid government debt when it had the opportunity so that when the recession occurred NZ could borrow to tide us over without damaging our credit or requiring high interest payments because our ratio of debt to GDP is relatively low. What would be a bad thing would be if now our balance of payments is on the right side of the ledger the government chooses to reduce taxes rather than repay debt.

    Because if it doesn’t then we’ll be short on acorns saved for the next crisis.

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  73. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    All you people saying that the fern looks like the white feather of cowardice…

    Suggesting that is far more disrespectful of all those who served overseas with a symbolic fern since the Boer War than changing to a distinctive national flag.

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  74. Fentex (978 comments) says:

    I don’t particularly like that flag, but I could live with it. It certainly isn’t a slam dunk that’s going to motivate people to switch to it.

    Until we have a particular reason (becoming a Republic for instance) I don’t see most NZ’ers caring enough to bother.

    If Scotland leaves the UK (a referendum on such question being held later this year) that means the Union flag should lose the cross of St Andrew. Interesting thought for all those nations that fly ensigns of it.

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  75. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    It’s still a white feather!

    Pete George (11.31): so it’s disrepectful to challenge your views of the fern as a symbol?

    Damn lucky DPF isn’t posting about a United Future possum as national symbol.

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  76. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    “….Doesn’t make God any more real….”

    Who ever said God had to be ‘more real’ ? What’s the point in that anyway?

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  77. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (21,601 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 11:11 am

    I accept what you say, and view the silver fern with pride. My argument is what others, without that knowledge might make of it, and in the past have made of it. I remember a conversation between my father, and fellow servicemen along those exact lines, where they had needed to explain what the symbol was, to those that did not identify with it as a fern leaf. My point is very much that although we see it and regard it with pride and have used it internationally does not distract from the fact that it can be misunderstood.

    A flag should situate a country, and not leave room for criticism or need explanation.

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  78. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    If the national and world economies deteriorate before September, there will be increasing efforts to draw attention away and towards the bloody flag.

    Regarding the use of the ferns in NZ symbols in World War 2 (since replaced militarily by the kiwi symbol): everyone in the world is going to know the flag contains not a white feather but the symbol of the 2nd New Zealand Division of World War 2?

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  79. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    A flag should situate a country, and not leave room for criticism or need explanation.

    What flag doesn’t need any explanation? I’m sure there are people in the world who have no idea what the shape on the Canadian flag represents.

    How many people in China need no explanation about what the coloured crosses in the top left corner of our current flag represent? How many people in India need no explanation about the southern cross? I’ve always thought it looks more flag shaped than cross shaped, with the pointers on the tail.

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  80. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    Regarding the use of the ferns in NZ symbols in World War 2

    The use of the fern dates back to the Boer war.

    http://yournz.org/2014/01/30/silver-fern-emblem-used-in-boer-war/

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  81. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    The Silver Fern is a logo and John Key described it as such…..overseas recognition…..backpackers……rugby players……exports[ read produce]……

    …….and he prefaced it all with War Graves for some ‘gravitas’ [was one of the Roman virtues, along with pietas, dignitas and virtus. It may be translated variously as weight, seriousness and dignity.]

    He’s an idiot.

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  82. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Re Pete at 11.51:

    The maple is a good Canadian symbol, thanks to Canada’s domination of the world maple syrup market, and the fact that maple trees are widely known in parks and gardens around the world. The maple is a fairly distinctively shaped leaf.

    However, there are about 12,000 species of fern in the world, and nearly every country must have one unique to itself.

    Why should anyone but a rare military-history nut, or one of the diminishing number of soldiers who fought in North Africa or Italy know that a fern is linked to New Zealand?

    Sports fans generally talk about the All Blacks. There aren’t a helluva lot of countries that play netball, and would know from this that the fern is a symbol of NZ.

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  83. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (21,602 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 11:51 am

    Even if you don’t know that it is a maple leaf, there is no other traditional and universal shape with negative connotations that can be applied to it.

    The silver fern unfortunately is often drawn in such a way that makes it look like a white feather. Historically that has been recognised and questioned by many. There is no reason to expect anything different today.

    I am terribly proud of the silver fern, but realistic enough to see how it can be mistaken for something else, and patriotic enough not to want to expose ourselves, and be forever explaining that we have not based our flag on a symbol of cowardice.

    It is not rocket science Pete. I appreciate and understand your sentiments and your pride – but you have to look at it factually, and some person in various parts of the world seeing that symbol on the flag (which will receive more exposure than the fern has ever before) is highly unlikely to say “oh yeah, it looks like the sign of cowardice, but it’s really a silver fern’, are they? They will view it for what it looks like to them in their historical and cultural context.

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  84. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    1. The silver fern does not look like a white feather
    2. Even if it did, a white feather as a symbol of cowardice was pretty much restricted to WWI Britain.

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  85. SGA (1,044 comments) says:

    Pete George at 11:51 am

    What flag doesn’t need any explanation?…

    Fair comment – the stars are states, but what are the stripes for (messy)? What is going on in the middle of Brazil’s flag? Why are Germany’s, Italy’s and Sweden’s flags the way they are? And so on… The meaning is important largely to only the people that the flag represents.

    How many people in China need no explanation about what the coloured crosses in the top left corner of our current flag represent?

    It wouldn’t surprise me if many young NZers couldn’t tell you what all the components of the Union Jack symbolise either.

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  86. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    The silver fern unfortunately is often drawn in such a way that makes it look like a white feather. Historically that has been recognised and questioned by many.

    Really? I don’t remember any connection of the fern with a feather except from anti-change commenters here on Kiwiblog.

    Where’s the history on that?

    There’s plenty of positive history here: http://historygeek.co.nz/2014/02/10/flag-debate-the-silver-fern/

    And a silver fern emblazoned passport has had a respectful response whenever I’ve had to produce it.

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  87. Tautaioleua (305 comments) says:

    New flag designs are making their rounds and we haven’t even had a referendum yet. You have to love the commitment to democracy.

    The media has the country by the balls.

    :-)

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  88. Scott Chris (6,139 comments) says:

    Best one I’ve seen. If nothing better comes up it’s got my vote.

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  89. Ashley Schaeffer (487 comments) says:

    I don’t think a silver/white fern on our flag would be mistaken by very many people as a symbol of cowardice.
    This from that great oracle Wikipedia:

    A white feather has been a traditional symbol of cowardice, used and recognised especially within the British Army and in countries associated with the British Empire since the 18th century. It also carries opposite meanings, however: in some cases of pacifism, and in the United States, of extraordinary bravery and excellence in combat marksmanship.

    So a small number of people in countries associated with the British Empire might make the association, but these same people are probably the most likely to know that Silver Fern is a New Zealand icon.

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  90. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    “……New flag designs are making their rounds and we haven’t even had a referendum yet. You have to love the commitment to democracy…..”

    True!

    It was John Key’s idea to get the National Doodling and Colouring-In Competition underway – with a black outline of a Fern.

    Everyone is now on the same page – and you all just have to now colour the Fern in with the appropriate colours. Silver – on a ‘Ford black’ background. And doodle something else alongside it – maybe!

    Most will want the flag kept as it is once they wake up to what the current totalatarian and pc parties of National and Labour have in mind for the Nation’s ‘entire identity’ – Maori dominance.

    Look around – every conceivable thing is now appearing with ‘Maori’ stamped all over it. They’re worse than women. :cool:

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  91. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    It wouldn’t surprise me if many young NZers couldn’t tell you what all the components of the Union Jack symbolise either.

    I wonder how many people know much about the Southern Cross.

    In 1994, when the Northridge earthquake knocked out the power in LA, people contacted authorities and observatories wondering what the strange bright lights (stars) in the sky were.

    http://www.omg-facts.com/Science/After-a-power-outage-in-LA-people-called/53530#38Z6CeQCcXzPDvio.99

    And…

    It is estimated that as many as eighty percent of all the people alive today have never even glimpsed the Milky Way.

    http://www.pbs.org/seeinginthedark/astronomy-topics/light-pollution.html

    The Southern Cross is in the Milky Way. How many in New Zealand can identify it? Locate south using it?

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  92. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Worse in what way, Harriet?

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  93. mavxp (483 comments) says:

    Forest green has an Islamic reference in my book

    Yeah I always thought that about Italy, but they could never quite pull it off for lack of swords and quran quotations :roll:

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  94. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    In recent history, not ancient history, the white feather was associated with cowardice from the 18th century. It’s most popular usage being during the WWI when men not wearing military uniform were greeted by women who would place a white feather on their lapel.

    I’m sure Pete, you haven’t had discussions regarding the ‘Silver Fern’ being seen as a white feather on a flag, before now – simply because it has only just been raised recently.

    Again all your excuses, people you present your passport too etc, are those who would come into contact with the symbol readily. They do not represent the vast majority of the worlds population who would not have been exposed to it and would need explanation.

    The silver fern is not unique, we may adopted it as such, but there are many ferns throughout the world that look similar.

    As someone here just pointed out to me – the design suggested above might be appropriate – the white fern in that looks somewhat like a zip… dividing the red (for Maori) and Blue (for the colonial heritage. Maybe a zipper providing that definition might be the most appropriate one after all, because any attempt to alter the flag in today’s environment is going to increase separatism, and do nothing to get rid of it.

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  95. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    A zip is used to join together.

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  96. Ashley Schaeffer (487 comments) says:

    I must say that I’ve been a bit surprised by the comparisons here of the fern to a white feather. I have always been aware of the meaning of the white feather, but I can’t say that I’ve ever mentally made the connection between a white feather as a symbol for cowardice and our own silver fern (white on black background).

    I would much rather see a fern (which I can identify with) than a koru design (which I cannot) but if the comparison with a white feather becomes a popular argument used by those opposed to change (of which I am one), then I fear that it will only serve to promote a koru design over the fern when change inevitably occurs.

    If we do end up with a green koru somewhere on a future flag, I’m going to claim that it’s a tentacle of Cthulhu and a sign of his pending arrival.

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  97. SGA (1,044 comments) says:

    Judith at 12:38 pm

    The silver fern is not unique, we may adopted it as such, but there are many ferns throughout the world that look similar.

    Well, the Southern Cross is not unique to NZ for that matter as well (also, there are plenty of maple trees in the USA, and bald eagles in Canada, if you get my drift).

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  98. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    maple, (Acer), any of a large genus (about 200 species) of shrubs or trees in the family Sapindaceae, widely distributed in the North Temperate Zone but concentrated in China.

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/363558/maple

    Maybe we could have a chinese gooseberry leaf on our flag.

    There’s only one national flag with a maple leaf on it, therefore it’s distinctive and easily recognisable.

    There are currently no national flags with ferns of any variety or colour so a white or silver fern would be distinctive and far more recognisable than our current national flag.

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  99. Albert_Ross (293 comments) says:

    Why not add the two “pointers” to the Cross, in other words use the constellation identified by Maori as Te Punga (the Anchor) instead? That would make it a New Zealand rather than a southern hemisphere symbol.

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  100. Richard Hurst (859 comments) says:

    Hmmmmm……No. I don’t like all that red in the top left hand corner and no to a fern especially one that is bent like a worm. Straight lines and angles and meaning beyond a sports team are generally what are needed in a flag.

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  101. goldnkiwi (1,304 comments) says:

    Fisiani (823 comments) says:

    March 18th, 2014 at 8:30 am

    If the only issue is that the NZ flag looks much like the Australian flag, then they can just change theirs. Done, sorted. ;)

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  102. ben (2,380 comments) says:

    Love it. My favourite so far. Can we replace the anthem while we’re at it?

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  103. JMS (330 comments) says:

    Can we replace the anthem while we’re at it?

    Good idea, at the very least let’s change the words.
    We have one of the more ridiculous anthems in the English speaking world.

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  104. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Yes, any suggestions for a new anthem? My choice would be Fred Dagg’s ‘Gumboots’.

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  105. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    and meaning beyond a sports team

    Many sports teams and individuals have proudly worn the silver fern.

    Like Jack Lovelock: http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/people/jack-lovelock

    And…

    It’s no surprise that the Silver Fern symbol is widely used in sport, given New Zealand’s passion for and commitment to sport. However, it is misleading to regard it as merely a sports symbol; it pervades the imagery of all New Zealand and has inspired New Zealanders in all aspects of their lives … from the famous New Zealand export, Fernleaf Butter”, the badges of most New Zealand Army units, Neil Dawson’s Civic Square sculpture in Wellington, Katerina Nehua’s swimming costume for endurance swimming (1904 -1948) to our National netball team, “The Silver Ferns”.

    It has played an inspirational role for the military. New Zealand Army contingents, who saw overseas service in the South African War of 1899-1902, are understood to have worn fern leaf badges. The fern leaf had become the Army’s predominant badge by World War I.

    http://www.kiwianatown.co.nz/Ed-Hillary-walkway.html#silverfern

    And two New Zealand icons on a commemorative coin – Ed Hillary and a fern:
    http://lefthandedcoins.com/images/2008%20Sir%20Edmund%20Hillary.jpg

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  106. SGA (1,044 comments) says:

    mikenmild at 1:24 pm

    Yes, any suggestions for a new anthem? My choice would be Fred Dagg’s ‘Gumboots’.

    Would we have to pay Billy Connolly royalties everytime we sang it?
    “Among his best known musical performances were “The Welly Boot Song”, a parody of the Scottish folk song “The Wark O’ The Weavers,” which became his theme song for several years.”
    (I’d be very grateful if someone can tell me that Billy ripped off Fred)

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  107. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Just coz it’s derivative doesn’t make it less of a national song.

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  108. SGA (1,044 comments) says:

    it’s the royalities I’m worried about – every school prize giving, major sports event, and so forth.

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  109. Ashley Schaeffer (487 comments) says:

    The new anthem – and I have no doubt that the cultural Marxists will foist one upon us at some point – will have to have all references to God expunged and be sung only in Maori. Poi E anyone?

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  110. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    I prefer the Maori version of the anthem because it’s not obvious what it means, and it sounds better.

    Derivative is common. Our other National Anthem has an unknown source.

    God Save The King/Queen

    The author of the tune is unknown, and it may originate in plainchant, but a 1619 attribution to John Bull is sometimes made.

    In the United States, the British anthem’s melody is used for the patriotic “My Country, ‘Tis of Thee”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen

    If God had to make a choice between saving the Queen or defending New Zealand what would it do? If it came down to an anthem singing contest we’d fail miserably.

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  111. greenjacket (466 comments) says:

    Its horrible. A cluttered compromise. And I have no idea at all why it uses red – how is red a New Zealand colour?

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  112. Odakyu-sen (655 comments) says:

    CJPhoto noted: “The military put the fern on the grave of fallen soldiers. Obviously they have no concern it is mistaken as a feather.”

    Yes, but the fern on the grave of fallen soldiers is not white.

    When you have the combination of “fern” + “white,” then you run the risk of misinterpretation.

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  113. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    “Yes, but the fern on the grave of fallen soldiers is not white.”

    That’s not correct. Here are photos of military graves in Christchurch and Italy with white ferns.
    http://yournz.org/2014/01/31/silver-fern-is-nz-history/

    A flag with a white or silver fern would link back to our military past. That’s why I think it’s important to have a fern somewhere in our flag design.

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  114. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Pete George at 2.15 posted:

    A flag with a white or silver fern would link back to our military past…

    C’mon Pete. We’re very selective about our military past. For example, the rare decoration the New Zealand Cross, the great Prussian soldier Major Gustavus Ferdinand von Tempsky (a Prussian rebranded a Pole by NZ in line with anti-German hysteria and the eliminating of von Tempsky’s East Prussia from the world map by absorbing it into Poland and Russia), the dropping of “Rangers” (named after von Tempsky’s force) from the title of the New Zealand SAS in 1978.

    The fern has been dropped as our military symbol for some time now, apparently because in international deployments (Afghanistan, East Timor etc), our Allies associate the new kiwi symbol with New Zealand, but didn’t always know what country the fern represented.

    Do you think that the world will easily associate a fern with the 123rd biggest country in the world by population?

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  115. Monique Angel (291 comments) says:

    With big Bruv on this one Excuse the “HIPPO”, (Happily Ignoring Previous Posters Opinion) But it’s a white feather whichever way to wave it!
    A sac-less white feather flag!

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  116. secondcumming (93 comments) says:

    This design would look great flying off the mast of a Sanford trawler…..the filleted fish bones being most appropriate.

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  117. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    The fern has been dropped as our military symbol for some time now…

    It doesn’t look like it.

    The Army uses a fern style logo: http://www.army.mil.nz/default.htm
    The Navy uses a double fernleaf logo: http://navy.mil.nz/default.htm
    The Army Reserve uses a double fernleaf hat badge: http://reserves.mil.nz/reserves/army/default.htm
    The NZ Defence Force uses a double fernleaf:
    http://www.defencecareers.mil.nz/sites/default/files/images/body/logo-nzdf.png

    No sign of a Southern Cross or a union jack on any of those websites.

    The Air Force uses a kiwi: http://airforce.mil.nz/
    – but many people outside New Zealand are not familiar with kiwis. I was talking to someone in the US military a few years ago and they thought a kiwi was a small furry fruit and had no idea it was also a bird.

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  118. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Re Pete at 2.56:

    Pete, the New Zealand soldiers, sailors, and airmen serving in our Afghanistan force wore on their sleeves a kiwi symbol, and that was under a patch reproducing the current NZ flag.

    This is a long address link, let’s hope it works.

    http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/_e32aCgcyKo/NZ+Farewells+Last+Defence+Force+Contingent/OJUHibDIZ0h

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  119. greenjacket (466 comments) says:

    Jack5: Are you saying that the flag should be a blackflag with a white kiwi?

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  120. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    That’s a white kiwi on black – distinctive New Zealand colours. But most people don’t see serving soldiers.

    I don’t know if anyone is suggesting we have a kiwi on our flag. There’s very few if any national flags with birds or animals on them so it would be distinctive but there’s no indication it would be popular.

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  121. Odakyu-sen (655 comments) says:

    I stand corrected.

    (Clutching at straws)

    But, but, but, the “white fern” on the gravestone is curved. Maybe “fern” + “white” + “straight” is the combination at risk. (After all, “white” + “straight” is a damning combination in the eyes of many in today’s world, it seems…

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  122. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Greenjacket asked at 3.18 whether I was saying NZ should have a black flag with a white kiwi?

    My answer: no.

    Does Pete George think that if we don’t dump our present flag for one with a punga on it, we should opt for a new one with a United Future possum on it?

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  123. Pete George (23,568 comments) says:

    That’s nonsensical diversion Jack. The flag shown flying at the top of this post is my current preference (but the choice for an alternative should be open to any suggestions). It retains enough similarities with the current flag but is distinctively different, and ties in enough with (but differentiates from) the very wide use of a fern that dates back well over a century.

    Just imagine that being raised at the Olympics, instant pride rather than “have they got ours or the the Aussies, are we red stars or white, I wonder if anyone else notices or cares” sort of thing.

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  124. Concerned (41 comments) says:

    An interested friend submits:

    In 1964, Canadian prime Minister Lester Pearson was instrumental in driving the removal of the Union Jack as part of a national flag change despite significant opposition from opponents voicing the exact same arguments we are hearing in New Zealand 50 years later. Surely the argument that we should show respect for the flag beneath which our servicemen and women fought and died has lost potency over the years. The battalion badge my Granddad wore on his hat at Passchendaele features a prominent fern as do all the overseas gravestones of our fallen.

    The silver fern has been our national emblem since the birth of our nation, instantly recognisable internationally as quintessentially, unequivocally and unmistakably New Zealand. The fern has also been the emblem of our sports men and women for over a century. It is used extensively as a symbol of government, tourism, trade organisations and commercial brands. The Silver Fern says ‘Aotearoa’ ‘New Zealand. ’The Canadians have their red maple leaf, we have our silver fern.

    Shouldn’t we get cracking on this before the Aussies? Australia and New Zealand are the last two of 55 British Commonwealth countries to retain the British Blue Ensign.

    Kyle Lockwood from Massey University designed this flag way back in 2000. Why is this suggested flag design so stunning?

    . It is unmistakeably kiwi
    · It is simple, elegant and retains a respectful nod to the current flag in both retention of colour and the Southern Cross
    · It is not radical change, our fern national emblem simply replaces the union jack albeit in larger, fuller format

    Let’s go for it!

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  125. JMS (330 comments) says:

    It is simple, elegant

    It’s certainly not simple, and almost impossible to define mathematically.

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  126. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    VOMIT _ TOTAL VOMIT AND PUKE

    IT IS PATHETIC

    Wonderful When the people of NZ want a New Flag they will ask for it

    otherwise off and find something useful to do

    and that goes for you to JOHN KEY or ANYONE ELSE

    HE IS A SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE

    A CIVIL SERVANT

    NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND

    WE DON’T SERVE YOU
    YOU SERVE US

    PEOPLE DON’T CARE HOW MUCH MONEY YOU AND YOU FRIENDS HAVE

    OF IF YOU ACCEPT PAYMENT OR NOT

    YOU DO WHAT WE TELL YOU TO DO – DEMOCRATICALLY

    WHEN WE TELL YOU TO DO IT

    THAT IS WHY NZ IS DEMOCRACY

    SO IF YOU DON’T LIKE THAT RESIGN

    AND IF YOU WANTED TO REBRAND THE COUNTRY

    AND IF THAT WAS SO IMPORTANT
    YOU WOULD HAVE STARTED A LONG TIME AGO

    YOU SHOULD HAVE CAMPAIGNED ON THAT IN THE FIRST INSTANCE

    AND GIVEN VALID REASONS IN THE NATIONAL PARTY MANIFESTO

    TAKE IT TO YOUR OWN NATIONAL PARTY FIRST

    THIS WHOLE SUDDEN “CREATED NEED” to

    IN AN ELECTION YEAR

    TO CHANGE THE FLAG IS TOTAL C R A P _ THERE IS AN ULTERIOR MOTIVE

    Without legal or constitutional change IT IS A FARCE

    IF YOU DON”T LIKE THE UNION JACK SUNSHINE

    THERE IS THE RISING SUN

    AND SWASTIKA AS ALTERNATIVES

    A minor tweak to define it slightly more from AUS
    FOR THE STUPID PEOPLE WHO DON”T REALISE
    WHY THEY ARE SIMILAR – MAYBE

    BUT OTHER THAN THAT

    THIS IS ALL AS BAD AS
    THAT

    OTHER FLAG YOU ADOPTED ON NZs BEHALF WITH NO REAL DEMOCRATIC CONSULATION
    THAT IS

    PURE – FASCISM

    IF YOU DO NOT LIKE NZ SYMBOLS AND DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY
    REPRESENT

    LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND VISIT SOME WITH ALTERNATE SYMBOLS
    TO GET THE GENERAL IDEA

    AND DO NZ AND AUS A FAVOUR AND DO NOT COME BACK

    IT IS PATHETIC

    UTTERLY PATHETIC

    AND IT NEARLY MAKES ME WANT TO VOMIT

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  127. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Not keen on changing the flag, Ben?

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  128. JMS (330 comments) says:

    Bendover,

    no real democratic consultation?
    are you serious?

    Key’s announced there will be a referendum, and if there’s no majority for a new flag, we’ll stick with the current one.

    You can always vote NO.

    Where’s the problem?

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  129. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    no real democratic consultation?
    are you serious?

    I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE REAL CURRENT FLAG THE OTHER ONE

    KEY ADOPTED ON YOUR BEHALF WITH OUT REAL CONSULTATION

    WITH EITHER MAORI OR PAKEHA

    THE Tino_rangatiratanga FLAG

    DID YOU VOTE FOR THAT DID YOU?

    WHEN?

    SPARE ME THE LECTURE ON DEMOCRATIC CONSULTATION

    WHO VOTED FOR THAT DID YOU?

    YEAH 50 .00000000001 %

    AND KEY AND THE MURRY’S WILL HAVE A LETTUCE LEAF ON THE FLAG

    TAG YOUR FAKE FLAG
    YOU FAKE NATIONALISM
    YOUR FAKE DEMOCRACY AND
    SHUV IT

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  130. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    A big black and white cow squirting it’s udder into a smiling yellow face holding a big wad of cash on a lovely pure green background would seem to be a good choice for a national emblem! :)

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  131. hubbers (139 comments) says:

    Oh god no

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  132. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Christ that Flag is Truly Pathetic if you are going to use the Southern Cross do it properly
    and assign it some meaning

    That flag is wimpey un balanced and unfocused

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Marine_Division_(United_States)

    Originally termed a battle blaze, the shoulder sleeve insignia of the 1st Marine Division was designed by Lt. Col Merrill Twining, Division D-3 in February 1943 while the division was stationed in Victoria, Australia.[40] The blue diamond with the Southern Cross is similar to the Flag of Victoria. The red numeral one in the middle denotes the division’s first action on Guadalcanal. A commercial firm in Melbourne first produced the shoulder patch with every Marine issued two of them[41] that was sewn on his battle jacket.

    <
    The Kiwi Symbol and black from the Boot Polish was developed in Melbourne also

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  133. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    My god Design by Committee by the Finance Arm of the National Party

    Jesus someone Nuke the place so we don’t have to look at any more c r a p designs

    Change the name of the Country as well and the Anthem to

    GOD HELP US ALL

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  134. eszett (2,410 comments) says:

    Ben Dover, proving Poe’s law again and again.

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  135. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Do what the “puppet masters says” NZ

    Is he going to change the Name from NZ to

    “Johnstown” “Keysville”

    You Zombies just do what they tell you to do
    anything they “suggest”

    Be Careful when they start handing our special flavoured cordial

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  136. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Poes Law

    it’s Johns Law

    you must obey you must obey the master

    Change the Flag

    Yes Master

    We are now your Zombies

    We no longer think we just vote

    Center right dribble dribble

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  137. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    @Ben Dover…. has some mean bugger swapped your meds for Tic Tacs? 8O

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  138. Dave Mann (1,222 comments) says:

    I like it too… a lot. Its strong and unique and says who we are perfectly. Great!

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  139. Random Punter (72 comments) says:

    Hideous.

    But keep them coming, DPF. Every ugly, embarrassing alternative just makes the present flag look better and better.

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  140. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    Attractive design. Don’t the stars still make us look too Australian. Oh, that’s right, we just trying to get rid of the monarchy as diplomatically as possible under J Key.

    China here we come

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  141. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    You asked for people’s opinion YOU ARE GETTING it

    NEXT QUESTION

    How does the National party pay for this forum?
    to promote it and it’s policies?

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  142. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    has some mean bugger swapped your meds for Tic Tacs?

    NO BUT ???????? LIKE YOU MUST BE ON THEM

    BECAUSE YOU CAN”T CONTRIBUTE JACK SH*T CAN YOU

    LETTUCE LEAF

    YOU WOULD ADOPT ANY GOD DAMNED SYMBOL ANY NODDY WOULD PUSH
    IN FRONT OF YOUR SNOUT

    WITH OUT QUESTION

    JUST LIKE ZOMBIES

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  143. Nostalgia-NZ (5,214 comments) says:

    I don’t think the colour red would rest easy on a NZ flag, but maybe I’m wrong.

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