General Debate 11 March 2014

March 11th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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149 Responses to “General Debate 11 March 2014”

  1. dishy (248 comments) says:

    12 Years in Opposition

    An epic fail tale of Cavid Dunliffe MP MBA Harvard o.n.o. Dip. Stick, who is plucked from his handyman’s dream home in upstate, leafy Herne Bay and sold out into Laboury. Cavid, who entertains by fiddling, wanders from disaster to disaster in the Union States, enduring his privations without good grace, and struggling to regain his dignity as much as Whiney Norman struggles to regain his flag. Also featuring Mutt McCartoon as a wicked-as slave master.

    “The best entertainment an hour on the minimum wage can buy” – John Key

    “The greatest work of fiction since my CV” – David Clownliffe

    “You guys are mean – it’s all our fault” – National, The Herald and TV3

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  2. Ashley Schaeffer (486 comments) says:

    Aren’t we all so easily offended these days.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/10653827/Man-banned-from-Hilton-after-joking-he-had-large-snake-in-trousers.html

    Our politically correct future looks so bleak and humourless.

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  3. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Tropical storm Lusi is expected to become a category 2cyclone before decaying into an ex tropical cyclone. Lusi’s present projected progression results in the storm being directly over Auckland sunday night.

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  4. RRM (9,915 comments) says:

    Big Bruv –

    Yes, Penny finally is going to have to pay her rates. :-)

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  5. Reid (16,440 comments) says:

    Interesting comment on why the UK isn’t with the US over Russia and says a lot about power structures and money plays if you know how to read between the lines on these subjects:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-09/why-london-too-will-balk-sanctions-against-russia-and-putin-knows-it

    To those who do know how to do that, as you know, the intelligence community could overrule this whole thing if they wanted to and make Cameron do it regardless of The City. Interesting they’re not doing that, isn’t it. I wonder why.

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  6. Ross12 (1,425 comments) says:

    Cunliffe is really struggling if the Newstalk ZB news reader pulls him up on an error in her news report. He was commenting on something Key said and said that it did not help poor kids get milk to drink. The news reader reminded him and all her listeners lower decile school kids already get free milk.

    Now he is moaning that Key is manipulating things with a “spring” election date , saying the G20 meeting is just an excuse for an early election. Well I thought November was in spring as well. Are we sure this guy actually went school ,let alone any MPA course or other things on his CV.

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  7. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    So; according to David Cunliffe on Breakfast this morning, John Key is “manipulating New Zealanders” over the choice of a September election date. He seems to think that it’s a dastardly plot by Key to stop Labour voters turning out because the weather might not be the greatest.

    If this is the best that David Cunliffe can come up with, little wonder Labour is in the poop. Not even Winston Peters would try and run a lame conspiracy theory like that.

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/key-dates-and-odd-conspiracy-theories.html

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  8. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ griffith (16 comments) says:
    March 11th, 2014 at 8:14 am

    Oh dear, the metvuw forecast map looks a bit of a mess for the weekend. I guess that will be an end to the drought and farmers begging for more money because they overstock and under-estimate feed requirements.

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  9. flipper (4,050 comments) says:

    Cunners is still at it Lying , fudging, stretching truth, that is.

    As everyone one watching TV3 last weekend will have noted, he again, and shamelessly, trotted out the “Harvard degree” canard.

    The fool really does live in the McCarten bubble world whose only other residents appear to be Harawira, Minto, Kelsey and rich prick Waldegrave. They all reside, and suffer from oxygen deprivation in the political/economic stratosphere. In short Cunliffe is not just divorced from reality, he has been ex-communicated by a large chunk of his Caucus.

    Perhaps that explains while Labour insiders at Parliament report that the first Cunners knew of the Jones missile attack on Countdown/Woolworths was when he launched those rockets in the House.

    But as always the dumb cun trots his “we are ready – we are in election mode” line on September 20, in much the same way as he did on his laughable “war footing” last year.

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  10. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Ross12 (834 comments) says:
    March 11th, 2014 at 8:31 am

    Firstly, whilst kids do get free milk at school, one cannot say kids get enough free milk to fulfill their dietary requirements. So the news reader was also wrong. Why can’t people actually keep to the facts – the kids get approx. 1/4 of their DRA at school five days a week. Not all the ‘free milk’ they need.

    Secondly, are we now claiming the Primeminister didn’t manipulate the date of the election? SO what did he do, put all dates in a hat and draw one out? Of course he manipulated it, that is his privilege being the PM – he gets to choose the date that he thinks is best. Cunnliffe and anyone else who thinks he shouldn’t have done that … are idiots.

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  11. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    @RRM: Penny needs to be taken to one side and have it explained to her this ‘problem’ is self inflicted and she needs to stop her bleating. It’s simple: when she pays the $29k, the sale will be pulled. If she doesn’t pay…. well, no-one can say she wasn’t warned.

    Her refusal to pay her way has been an insult to all other property owners (and tenants who pay rates via rental) who pay their lawfully assessed rates OK. Why Penny thinks she’s special, is anyone’s guess. But at least this week, Penny has discovered the price of being ‘special’ has been set by Auckland Council at $29k.

    And unless she pays within the 10 day period, she may have to dust off one of the tents she was last seen in at Aotea Square…..

    Actions have consequences.

    Whilst the sale of her house is drastic, Auckland Council has clearly had a gutsful. Just like most of us…. :roll:

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  12. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    @ Judith – the PM has announced the election date more than six months out, as he did in 2011. Stretch your mind back to 2008 when Helen Clark clung to power for as long as she could. Then when it came time to finally announce the date she preached about the virtues of Labour and the evil Mr Key for almost half an hour before finally announcing that the election was “about trust”, and naming the date.

    The 2008 election was indeed about trust, and the electorate didn’t trust Labour. Key has been commended from right across the political spectrum for NOT playing games over election dates, and Cunliffe’s statement this morning borders on pathetic.

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  13. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    The Lecher is finally getting his just deserves . . . he is a fiscally illiterate, irresponsible, disgrace, who should never have been elected.
    Where is the obese German criminal, hiding from creditors, or getting ready to return to the States . . . he is long overdue to make this trek.

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  14. Manolo (13,735 comments) says:

    The bogus, phoney Silent T whinges: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8812217/peters-could-be-a-problem-key-says

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  15. redqueen (562 comments) says:

    Another day, another left wing email ‘mistake’…

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11217335

    The Herald appears to have gone mad, if thinking that Len can lose any more credibility. But who in God’s name thought making the mayor the treasurer was a good idea? Didn’t warning bells from Muldoon start ringing? Seriously, what a bloody silly idea. Could be a new nickname though…Toaster Brown!

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  16. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Phil Goff: Why has Peter Davis not been to the US since you ordered a RNZAF flight to pick him up?
    You owe the public an explanation, this was taxpayers’ money (and a lot of it), and we have a right to know full details.
    You and your contemporaries are always demanding transparency, yet when it affects you, there is a slithering under rocks.

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  17. chris (647 comments) says:

    Of course it’s OK when Labour have an election in September (2005) but not when National do (2014).

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  18. chris (647 comments) says:

    Oh and I forgot, Labour called an early election in 2002 (July) with only a few weeks notice. Again, it’s OK when Labour do it.

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  19. flipper (4,050 comments) says:

    Heh IGM….

    Can you fill in some gaps here…. for the greater good.

    How was Goff able to “order” an RNZAF jet to pick up Davis in the US when his “wife” was no longer Prime Minister and Goff was no longer a Minister????

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  20. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    Just for the record, here are the election dates since Muldoon’s infamous Schnapps Election in 1984:

    1984 (Muldoon) – 14 July
    1987 (Lange) – 15 August
    1990 (Moore) – 27 October
    1993 (Bolger) – 6 November
    1996 (Bolger) – 12 October
    1999 (Shipley) – 27 November
    2002 (Clark) – 27 July
    2005 (Clark) – 17 September
    2008 (Clark) – 8 November
    2011 (Key) – 26 November

    Cunliffe has gone off on a tangent again, and made a complete fool of himself; but what else is new?

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  21. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    Regarding Bludger-Penny having to pay her rates, 10-day notice etc. Can someone put up a link to an article confirming this??

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  22. chris (647 comments) says:

    Yep, theoretically they’re in November but from Keeping Stock’s list above they’re more often not. Surely Labour have more confidence that their voters won’t be put off by a bit of bad spring weather, especially if they want to get rid of that nasty John Key? And they’ll have already been hit by the supposedly higher cost of living we’re going to experience through winter with power increases* and the like.

    (* Especially since the power price increases are entirely due to that nasty John Key and his “rich mates” that he’s always looking after.)

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  23. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    @WineOh – it’s on the NBR website (subscriber).

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/

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  24. Alan (1,087 comments) says:

    Why in the name of God are Labour bleating on about who people had a drink of milk with?

    We’re in an election campaign and they are whining about an issue with absolutely zero electoral potency. For Labour to win, it needs to drive turnout, this isn’t going to get a single extra voter out.

    Labour needs to be relentless on 3 or 4 key issues; housing, transport, cost of living, jobs, lack of social mobility. Sadly for them, health and education which are normally strong issues are off the table due to Nationals 6 years of competence and avoidance of screw ups.

    I don’t want Labour to win, but I do want a robust election with a clear battle of ideas; we’re not getting that right now, it doesn’t even look like they are trying.

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  25. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    Thanks Elaycee, music to my ears. I don’t have an NBR subscription now that I’m no longer in the corporate world. Will just have to wait until the Granny or Dompost pick up on it.

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  26. RRM (9,915 comments) says:

    WineOh – see the tail end of yesterday’s General Debate…

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  27. Ross12 (1,425 comments) says:

    Great thread on Whaleoil about the graph tweeted by Cunliffe on power prices. A reader has done some basic research into the source data and guess what …

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/03/labours-power-scheme-lies/#more-128907

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  28. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Why in the name of God are Labour bleating on about who people had a drink of milk with?

    Because Cullen effectively admitted that she had broken the rules by doing so, saying that she was trying to help a NZ exporter – when that help constituted endorsing their product. Also the potential conflict of interest with her husband being a director of the dairy exporter, Oravida.

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  29. Scott Chris (6,133 comments) says:

    according to David Cunliffe on Breakfast this morning, John Key is “manipulating New Zealanders” over the choice of a September election date

    What National is doing is keeping Labour on the back foot and by whining about it Cunliffe is staying on the back foot.

    A better way for Cunners to have responded would have been with false bravado – along the lines of ‘bring it on’.

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  30. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Regarding Bludger-Penny having to pay her rates, 10-day notice etc. Can someone put up a link to an article confirming this??

    The council made a series of assumptions as part of the process, if any of them turn out to be false then they are in the wrong.

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  31. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    @ Scott Chris; I agree completely. Cunliffe this morning sounded like a condemned man still protesting his innocence whilst on his way to the gallows.

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  32. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    @UglyTruth – I don’t like corporate bully-boy tactics, but Penny has attempted to deliberately make a personal crusade about unrelated issues as an activist, I find it a bit rich for her to cry foul now that it seems to be catching up with her. If there was a loophole in the legal framework whereby someone without a mortgage could not have demand served for unpaid rates then it seems right that the loophole is closed. Nobody likes paying rates or tax, but it is a price of the democracy that we live in. I don’t remember specifically signing up to a contract with the NZ government to pay income tax, GST etc. but one can rightfully expect that the Crown and the territorial authorities have the rights to levy costs on their constituents. The sooner she pays her bills to the city of Auckland the sooner she can can start to claw back some moral decency rather than coming across as a bludger.

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  33. Peter (1,712 comments) says:

    Isn’t this “weather” stuff an insult to their own voters?

    By saying the weather is an issue, they are saying their voters are so stupid/lazy/disinterested that a little rain will put them off, yet this doesn’t affect National voters, as presumably National voters are not stupid/lazy/disinterested?

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  34. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Bwahahahaaaaa…. You just know the left is stuffed when one of their media hack pack (David Fisher) starts whingeing about something that happened in…. 2011!

    Just had this shown to me from the Hoorald: The links between the company and party are laid out on the company website and date back to March 2011, when the Trade Minister spoke at an Oravida-sponsored lunch. Then, in August 2011, Mr Goodfellow and Auckland Central MP Nikki Kaye attended a function to celebrate the company’s purchase of its waterside headquarters.

    Stop the presses! The Trade Minister spoke at an Oravida sponsored function~! And National MPs attended a function in Auckland when Oravida opened new offices! In 2011! Quelle horreur!

    Pffttt…. if this is the best the lame stream hacks can come up with, then the left are truly bereft of ideas.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11217337

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  35. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Nursey

    If you’re going to criticise Key for manipulating the election date, then you might start be explaining why the reason he gave for 20 September isn’t a good one and perhaps also point to some inconsistency between what he said when announcing it and the previous signals he gave regarding G20 timing.

    Or you could just say “yahboo sucks”, as you did. That leaves you in good company with your pinko comrades.

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  36. Harriet (4,967 comments) says:

    Scott Chris#

    “…..What National is doing is keeping Labour on the back foot and by whining about it Cunliffe is staying on the back foot….”

    Maybe. It’s early stages and the voters have very short memories, so at this stage it is probably more about reinforcing into voters minds who THEY are.

    So Cunliffe does have to at least stand up to Key as his voting base believes that they are always at the disadvantage of Key, and Cunliffe is just reinforcing that image into the lo-fos by attacking Key at every opportunity. Cunliffe attacks Key, Key beats Cunliffe, Cunliffe is then the victim. The lo-fos relate to all that.

    And at this early stage in the election campaign it’s all about creating the image that Key and National is doing wrong here, there and everywhere. Shit will be thrown at Key left, right and center for the next month or so, and most of it won’t stick – however some splatter will – but Labour will have achieved what it ALSO needs at this early stage – having the swinging voters at least starting to ‘doubt’ National.

    This is based on the fact Labour wants to retain as many seats as they can – as they know they are going to lose.

    Keep up with us Conservatives Chris. :cool:

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  37. calendar girl (1,232 comments) says:

    Well said, WineOh@9:52am. Ms Bright has brought this upon herself.

    Nevertheless, it may be worth getting out the popcorn in anticipation of the outcome of her LGOIMA request. If Mayor Brown is shown to have played a direct personal role in initiating this process against a political opponent in the Auckland Mayoralty race, there should be plenty of entertainment to follow.

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  38. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (344 comments) says:

    WineOh –
    Good morning Leighton!
    The first working day after I spoke on your show Leighton – (Friday 28 February 2014) – explaining why I refused to pay my rates – a letter is sent from Auckland Council date 3 March 2014 – threatening to sell my house.
    _____________

    To prevent this action and to avoid further cost (including legal fees and disbursements) please pay the above sum within 10 working days from the date of this letter.

    To discuss payment options, you may contact us on 09 30100101 or by email at
    rates.collections@aucklandcouncil.govt.nz

    You may want to speak with a lawyer for independent legal advice.

    Makes it Monday March 17
    Penny, what will you call your payments? Len Brown Resurrection Contributions, SkyCity Whitewash Fund …
    run a competition

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  39. Reid (16,440 comments) says:

    Accidentally leaked email reveals Auckland Council at risk of downgrade as debt balloons under Brown’s watch. Len Brown’s principal policy adviser James Bews-Hair says the Auckland Mayor will be “political toast” if the council’s credit rating is lowered…In a candid email to Mr Brown’s chief of staff Phil Wilson, head of communications Dan Lambert and chief press secretary Glyn Jones – and copied to the Herald – Mr Bews-Hair outlined the mayoral position on maintaining the council’s AA credit rating…The timing of the email could not be worse for Mr Brown, who today will outline a new 10-year budget with low rate increases, a revised debt programme and tightening the screws on capital works, albeit with the addition of a funding package for the $2.86 billion city rail link.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11217335

    This was “accidentally” forwarded to the NZ Herald. Bews-Hair was fired last year by Phil Wilson but Brown wouldn’t let him go. There’s a lot of bad blood in that office. Was this really an accident and if not, what’s the calculation?

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  40. Alan (1,087 comments) says:

    “effectively admitted that she had broken the rules by doing so, saying that she was trying to help a NZ exporter – when that help constituted endorsing their product. Also the potential conflict of interest with her husband being a director of the dairy exporter, Oravida.”

    That may or may not be the case, I don’t know or really care; and that’s the point. Voters don’t care about this, they care about issues that impact them directly; jobs, transport, education.

    Labour should be focused what matters to voters, there is a time for Wellington process stories, but it’s not in an election. Cuncliffe and McCarten need to get a grip and bring some focus very quickly. None of the missing Labour voters from 2005 is going to be motivated to go out and cast a ballot based on a glass of milk someone had in China.

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  41. peterwn (3,271 comments) says:

    Re Penny Bright
    The Local Government Rating Act is quite clear as to procedure. Guessing at what the problem is (I do not have a NBR sub) if the Council administration did make a blunder when applying one mechanism in the Act, it would be repugnant to all other ratepayers if the council could not take another tack in recovering the rates.

    The NBR headline indicates she owes $29k and the Council is looking to sell her house. Heavy handed – yes, but it is a last resort when dealing with smart alecs like Penny. A forced sale of a property especially when the owner is politically active is always going to cause ructions, but so be it. This is precisely why the Act makes provision for councils to ‘touch’ mortgagees (lenders) for unpaid rates. Even before the 2002 Act, councils could warn mortgagees that a rating sale was on the cards and mortgage agreements allowed the mortgagee to pay rates and stick it on the mortgage, and they generally would do this to protect their security interest. This is why coordinated ‘rates strikes’ do not get past first base in most cases.

    Looks like Penny will have to take out a mortgage – wish her well on the terms offered. I would not lend to her.

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  42. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    @UglyTruth – I don’t like corporate bully-boy tactics, but Penny has attempted to deliberately make a personal crusade about unrelated issues as an activist, I find it a bit rich for her to cry foul now that it seems to be catching up with her.

    I agree that Penny is partly responsible for her situation.

    If there was a loophole in the legal framework whereby someone without a mortgage could not have demand served for unpaid rates then it seems right that the loophole is closed.

    Demand cannot be lawfully served unless there is a lawful basis for the demand. It’s not really about a loophole but rather about the council’s involvement in territorial actions whose origin lies with the Roman empire, not with the law of the land of New Zealand.

    Nobody likes paying rates or tax, but it is a price of the democracy that we live in.

    In Penny’s case this is a reasonable point, since she is actively campaigning within the framework of that system.

    I don’t remember specifically signing up to a contract with the NZ government to pay income tax, GST etc. but one can rightfully expect that the Crown and the territorial authorities have the rights to levy costs on their constituents.

    The problem is that agents of the Crown assume that everyone living in a particular geographical region is within their territory. This assumption can be falsified by serving the agents with a notice of trespass in relation to private property.

    The sooner she pays her bills to the city of Auckland the sooner she can can start to claw back some moral decency rather than coming across as a bludger.

    For her to be a bludger she would have to be obtaining some benefit from the city of Auckland.

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  43. Pete George (23,558 comments) says:

    Unfortunately some MPs only get media attention when there’s controversy, as happened with Mojo Mathers and her trip to Masterton. Mojo has posted a transcript of the interview.

    It is a good insight into her life and her career as an MP,

    I was born profoundly deaf as the result of a difficult labour, my mother had a very difficult labour with me. But she was not aware that my hearing had been impacted upon, so it wasn’t picked up until I was two and a half when the kindergarten teachers said to my mother: do you realize that your daughter cannot hear, and that is why she’s not speaking yet? And so at that point I was fitted out with hearing aides, and these days they were big boxes that you wore strapped onto a harness.

    And growing up I was told that I would never be able to wear ear levels behind the hearing aide, and I was very upset by that. But fortunately technology progressed and eventually as a teenager I was able to have ear levels. I can’t tell you how happy I was for that.

    I was born in England, but my family came to New Zealand when I was 14. We first settled in Hawkes Bay and I went to Karamu High School, and there was a deaf unit there. I was actually mainstreamed but I went to the deaf unit for speech therapy lessons because at that point in time it was still quite hard for people to understand me.

    So we did a lot, many, many hours of speech therapy to get me to articulate the sounds that I can’t hear in speech, which includes a lot of the consonants like t and f and so on, and these sounds I can’t hear so I had to be shown how to make them, and then practice and practice. And when I was 18 I shifted to Christchurch to go to Canterbury University, and I started off doing mathematics, then I did a mathematics Honours degree, but then I shifted over to do conservation ecology at the School of Forestry and I did a Master’s degree there. So that’s eventually how I got involved with politics, because of my passion for environmental issues.

    I was probably very unaware of politics for most of my life until my family and I with small children moved out to the country, to a rural area. That was in Canterbury, and there was a proposal for a massive dam right beside the village that was going to flood a valley with a very special QE II reserve on it, of very special ecological value.

    And so I joined a group called the Dam Action Group, and we decided to try and fight this dam, and eventually actually we were successful in that the dam did not go ahead, although the irrigation proposal is still going ahead. But they’re protecting the valley and the five generations of farmers who have farmed in that valley, and it was a real win for us.

    There’s much more – full transcript of Mojo’s Masterton interview

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  44. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Flapper: Get your dates correct . . . they were in power!

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  45. BeaB (2,123 comments) says:

    I guess if Grant Robertson travels by bus that would be a conflict of interest because he is married to a bus driver.

    What seems to escape everyone is that there is no problem with there being an ‘interest’. The issue is whether there is a conflict and I can’t see any in a minister visiting a company that exports NZ products even if her husband is a director.

    NZ is such a tiny country it would be surprising if our people in top positions didn’t have spouses in top positions too. Unless you are Grant Robertson of course.

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  46. mandk (992 comments) says:

    @ Peter (9.59)

    It’s a common error, but disinterested means uninfluenced by considerations personal advantage, i.e. like a football ref should be.

    I think you mean uninterested.

    End of pedantic message :-)

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  47. EAD (1,069 comments) says:

    Wow – Global debt exceeds $100 trillion for the first time:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2014-03-10/global-debt-exceeds-100-trillion

    It’s incredible to think that when the Financial World almost crashed itself in 2008 due to an excessive debt problem, we doubled down and borrowed even more to get out of the problem caused by too much borrowing in the first place. And this doesn’t even include all the promises we have made ourselves far into the future, just currency already borrowed?

    I wonder if it’d be a good time to get started early & swap those pieces of colored paper with numbers printed on them for the real money, the GOLD & SILVER, in anticipation that one day this debt pile can be grown no more and that perhaps there is not enough real world wealth to meet all these paper promises?

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  48. Manolo (13,735 comments) says:

    Further proof of Griff’s growing influence: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/cruz-now-dems-plan-all-night-senate-talkathon-climate-change

    Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island plans to lead his fellow Democrats in a “marathon soliloquy” on the Senate floor, warning about the dangers of climate change, the Providence Journal reported.

    Beginning Monday and continuing until 9 a.m. Tuesday, Whitehouse and a few dozen other senators — including Majority Leader Harry Reid, Dick Durbin, Chuck Schumer, Barbara Boxer, Elizabeth Warren, and Al Franken — will speak continuously on the Senate floor — “in groups and individually throughout the night” — about how climate change is affecting their states.

    Whitehouse is expected to point to rising sea levels, the warming of Narragansett Bay and the midwinter blooming of fruit trees in R.I.

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  49. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    calendar girl (1,092 comments) says:
    March 11th, 2014 at 10:15 am
    If Mayor Brown is shown to have played a direct personal role in initiating this process against a political opponent in the Auckland Mayoralty race, there should be plenty of entertainment to follow.

    I think the mayor has bigger issues to worry about than a failed candidate

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  50. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    The POS in Christchurch has been found guilty of the murder of Mellory Manning…He won’t get the LWOP he richly deserves, but hopefully a minimum NPP of at least 17 years…and since he has “narked” on his brethren, hopefully one of them will finish the job in prison…

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  51. Alan (1,087 comments) says:

    Life without parole ? He deserves a rope around his neck.

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  52. Pete George (23,558 comments) says:

    I think it’s sensible to leave the flag out of this election but look at having a referendum during the next term when it can be debated properly without other distractions. So Key has chosen the best way top do it.

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  53. wreck1080 (3,905 comments) says:

    NZ dollar porn — NZD hits all time record high on the TWI, today!!! Just. If I read my stats correctly.

    Thursdays interest rate decision will be interesting especially regarding the NZ dollar.

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  54. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    It is forecast 50%+ for an el Nino S.O.I happening this winter manallu If it does this year will be the globally hottest ever recorded.

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  55. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Alan: Actually no..for a number of reasons I have changed my mind since I wrote my book on the death penalty…but I have come to believe that 40 years or more in a concrete box in C block (formerly D block) at Pare would be a worse punishment than the 30 seconds of terror that preceded an English execution…We weren’t quite so efficient here…

    And think of this prick’s existence if he gets 17 years plus…even in “seg” he’ll always be looking over his shoulder for the guy who’s got the contract to shiv him…

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  56. tvb (4,415 comments) says:

    Cunliffe really is quite stupid when he talks about the cooler weather from a Spring Election and somehow this gives National an advantage. As has been noted a November election is still Spring. And the Labour Party have six clear months to get themselves organised if they are capable of doing that. As for saying the minor parties should be allowed to keep secret who they will support until AFTER the election. How does that help voters when they vote for a particular party and have NO IDEA how their vote is going to be used. Winston is saying trust me I will decide and tell you after the election. And Cunliffe says this is acceptable. In other words Winston has done a secret deal with Cunliffe and will not tell us until AFTER the election. Talk about trust.

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  57. peterwn (3,271 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth
    S 60 Local Government (Rating) Act 2002
    “A person must not refuse to pay rates on the ground that the rates are invalid unless the person brings proceedings in the High Court to challenge the validity of the rates on the ground that the local authority is not empowered to set or assess the rates on the particular rating unit.”

    This places the onus on the ratepayer to prove the rates are invalid. The rates demands stand until the ratepayer commences High Court proceedings against the Council. If the ratepayer fails to convince the court that the rates are invalid then the ratepayer has to meet the additional penalties incurred in the meantime (and these are greater than the interest council normally pays for loans).

    This section was no doubt included to deal with smart alecs.

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  58. goldnkiwi (1,303 comments) says:

    The word nark and its connotations are counter productive in my opinion. Especially when trying to ascertain the truth. He will probably be considered a hero for protecting other members who as far as I am aware have not been named. He is taking the rap for the other gang members who were also present.

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  59. Alan (1,087 comments) says:

    @DG, is life inside going to be bad for him ? I haven’t followed the case all that closely, but it’s my understanding that he didn’t talk and blame others in the MM.

    If that’s the case he’s going inside to the protective arms of his brothers in the mob.

    I may be wrong though

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  60. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    goldnkiwi: One of us hasn’t read the news reports carefully enough…I thought he had actually named some of the “dogs” who were there…if that is not the case, and he has just claimed he was there but didn’t do it, then you are right..either way the POS deserves 17 years plus…(checking the news report, he now claims his confession to even being there was coerced)

    It will be very interesting to monitor the fate of the anti gang legislation across the Tasman…we have had polis since Norm Kirk’s time vowing to deal to these bastards…then of course we had Simon “figjam” Power, former Justice Minister, who thought it was legitimate to invite their leaders to parliament – and pay their fares – to supposedly discuss “the drivers of crime”…the present Minister of Justice is much smarter…

    Alan: See above…but if he gets 17 years plus for aggravated murder he wont be out of maxi for a good few years…in there they can grunt at each other across the bars over the doors, but that’s about all…

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  61. Scott Chris (6,133 comments) says:

    Wow – Global debt exceeds $100 trillion for the first time:

    Oh dear. Who do we owe it to? The Martians?

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  62. RRM (9,915 comments) says:

    Reptilian shape shifters.

    Try to keep up.

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  63. calendar girl (1,232 comments) says:

    RichardX @ 11:37am – “I think the mayor has bigger issues to worry about than a failed candidate”

    Can’t argue with that! But abusing his position of power against a (former?) political opponent – if that’s what he has done – would be no trivial indiscretion on his part.

    Penny could ask for details / documentary evidence of any other ratepayers’ arrears in which Brown has taken a direct personal interest over the last 4 years.

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  64. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (4,884 comments) says:
    March 11th, 2014 at 12:32 pm

    This sad case is another example of the need for ‘murder by degrees’ in my opinion.

    As you say, his custodial sentence will probably never be completed as he has crossed boundaries that will have annoyed some people – it is my understanding that he and at least one other ‘squealed’.

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  65. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Judith: We already have degrees of murder if not by name…(I would have thought a tireless advocate for victims like you would have known that)

    Guilty of common or garden murder: life imprisonment with a minimum NPP of 10 years

    Guilty of murder with one or more aggravating features: life imprisonment with a minimum NPP of 17 years (See s.104 of the Sentencing Act 2002)

    Guilty of the worse possible murder: LWOP (Although informed opinion has it that that will only be imposed for something like mass killing or political assassination)

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  66. peterwn (3,271 comments) says:

    Judith – there are three degrees of murder for sentencing purposes prescribed in the Sentencing Act:
    1. 17+ years minimum – aggravating circumstances
    2. 10+ years minimum
    3. 0+ years minimum – where 10year minimum is manifestly unjust.

    <10year minimum term is rarely applied – intended for failed suicide pacts and the like.

    17+ year regime applies if:
    See: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0009/latest/DLM136802.html

    Judges do not seem to impose minimum sentences above the mid 20's years. This does not matter too much as the Parole
    Board will want to be reasonably sure of lack of future offending before releasing.

    The assessment of 'degrees' is better left to a judge interpreting the will of Parliament via the Sentencing Act than by a jury.

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  67. goldnkiwi (1,303 comments) says:

    David Garrett.
    I will believe it when those ‘others’ are charged and convicted. You say some have been named, why not all? I wonder what rank, expendables? Just because someone was named as being there that does not make them ‘convictable, unless the dna fits. I found it extraordinary to read argument regarding proximity of dna in the river and to her body not necessarily being compelling evidence and not necessarily due to the crime ffs.

    Perhaps now the msm will stop referring to her as a prostitute and to give her the respect as a victim of murder or at the least just referring to her by her name. Mellory Manning.

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  68. Rowan (2,292 comments) says:

    DG
    This bloke is the MM’s fall guy, the whole truth is never likely to be known, there is no real ‘evidence’ that he killed her just a lot of hypothesis plus the so called ‘confession’, there were certainly others involved so IMO the verdict is wrong.

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  69. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (4,887 comments) says:
    March 11th, 2014 at 1:00 pm

    I am aware of that, but I do not consider it to be enough, and they are not adequately defined either.

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  70. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Actually we really have FOUR degrees of murder…while there is a presumption that life imprisonment be the sentence for murder, the Sentencing Act also allows a lesser sentence in exceptional cases…and in my view that is just and right…

    I believe a less-than-life sentence has only been handed down twice, both in cases where a devoted spouse killed another who was terminally ill, in unbearable pain, and where the terminally ill spouse begged the other to kill them…no just society would treat such an “offender” anything like the POS in Christchurch…I fully support the mercy granted by the Judges in both those cases…

    Peterwn: You left out LWOP…available since the Sentencing and Parole Reform Act 2010…largely unnoticed because all the attention was on 3S at the time…

    So as I said above, we effectively have FOUR degrees of murder…not entirely sure I agree that which category any murder should fall in should be a Judge alone decision…they didnt do too well with sentencing prior to 3S…

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  71. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (344 comments) says:

    calendar girl and RichardX
    Would Pants Down Len Brown be either disinterested nor broken hearted?

    NBR –
    But an emerging team, vowing to fight alleged political corruption, is continuing to take shape following the Auckland mayor’s most recent scandal.
    Auckland activist and campaigner Penny Bright has joined forces with retired Wellington accountant Graham McCready.
    Ms Bright is known for her unsuccessful mayoral bids and, some would say, colourful disruptions of government meetings. Mr McCready is perhaps best known for his private prosecution against Act Party leader John Banks, which the Crown is taking to trial in May.
    The two first met in Wellington in 2012 when Mr Banks was their politician de jour.
    Now, the two have turned their attention to Auckland mayor Len Brown and the $250,000 EY report.
    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/lion-witch-and-len-browns-wardrobe-sf-151866

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  72. goldnkiwi (1,303 comments) says:

    Regards Mellory Manning. In the Herald it states that he was concerned that the ‘mob’ would give him up to the police, such good citizens. It also states that they have a dna profile of another, according to the article unknown suspect, who does not currently seem to be on a database. That does not sound to me like there has been a ‘name’ put to the other perpetrator/s.

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  73. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Rowan: with respect you demonstrate ignorance of the law…It has been the law for centuries – firstly in common law and now in the Crimes Act 1961 – that a “party” to murder is just as guilty as the person who actually pulled the trigger or bashed the victims skull in…This prick was definitely a “party” i.e. he was part of a “common purpose”…have a look at the relevant sections of the Crimes Act on http://www.Legislation.govt .nz

    One of the things I was planning to do if my political career had continued was look at how well sentencing by jury worked in some states of the US where that is the practice…does anyone know of any academic paper(s) on that subject from an NZ perspective? Pretty unlikely given the ideological bent of all our criminologists except Newbold

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  74. calendar girl (1,232 comments) says:

    NZ Post’s mail deliveries are becoming slower by the day, paralleling the almost complete disappearance of post / date-coding on NZ domestic envelopes. Such date-coding would normally indicate the lead-time taken for delivery.

    But occasionally we get a possible insight from abroad. I received today – Tuesday – a standard air mail envelope posted from Hong Kong, clearly date-marked 04.03.14 in that city. It had taken 7 days to arrive at my Auckland postal address. Why so long??? The journey to NZ is only one sector on airline services that operate daily from HKG to Auckland. The inefficiencies and delays are unlikely to have occurred in HKG where postal and other infrastructure services are generally ultra-efficient. So one should be able to conclude with reasonable confidence that the delays occurred at the Auckland end.

    The elimination of date-coding on most NZ-sourced mail seems to have been used as a device for NZ Post to conceal how long a piece of mail takes to be delivered to its destination. With domestically-sourced mail still being franked, despite the disappearance of date-coding, it can’t be argued to be a cost factor. My view is that NZ Post is simply becoming less efficient, less transparent, and less service-driven as it concentrates its resources and balance sheet on its offspring KiwiBank.

    And – despite the warnings we have received about less-frequent mail deliveries – the deterioration is occurring largely by stealth.

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  75. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Peterwn: You are a member of the Brotherhood I think? (Might be wrong)

    I would be interested in your reasons for thinking Judges deciding what degree of murder is appropriate is better than a jury deciding, as in a number of (dont know how many) states in the US…

    We used to effectively give jurors the power of life and death over an accused when we had CP…the Thomas case doesn’t really work as an argument since IIRC in both of his trials the Judges publicly stated themselves to be in accord with the jurors (clearly wrong) verdicts..

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  76. Rowan (2,292 comments) says:

    DG
    There were obviously many “parties” to the murder, i.e. the various MM members, and a lot of speculation as to what happened, the truth of which is unlikely to ever be fully known. The only ‘evidence’ is that he was a gang prospect and the so called ‘confession’. She was bashed and murdered by the gang members but this does not prove Fawcetts level of involvement or intention to kill her.

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  77. wreck1080 (3,905 comments) says:

    @calendar girl::

    I’ve been waiting nearly 3 weeks for nz post to deliver something (that i sent) so i raised an inquiry with them.

    They sent me a letter that I was suppost to post back within 10 days — but, i didn’t get the letter until 10 days after they posted it.

    Something is up with nz post. I’ve noticed a huge deterioration in delivery times.

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  78. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Rowan: You can lead a horse to water…make the effort to read the law on “parties” in the Crimes Act…ss.66 et seq….there you are, I have even given you the relevant section(s)

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  79. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Rowan

    Your exchange with DG concluding in your 1:36pm is the best explanation yet for your perspective on the DB business. Or did you actually sit through Fawcett’s trial in order to arrive at your conclusion?

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  80. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    DG

    You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink until the bats have vacated the belfry.

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  81. Rowan (2,292 comments) says:

    DVM
    I have followed the media coverage of the trial enough to hold the view that I do, as for the DB case, I know a lot more than you obviously do, only an uniformed nutjob (like the JFRB cult) or the men in blue would think that RB was ‘murdered’, yet none of them can give any sort of explanation of ‘how’

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  82. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Rowan: …but this does not prove Fawcetts level of involvement or intention to kill her.
    Coupled with last night’s pearl: …for a guilty verdict it needs to be BRD that he and noone else killed her…

    Newsflash: The Jury (who heard all evidence) has decided he is guilty. And, as it was pointed out to you last night (and again by David Garrett today), he can be found guilty of murder if the Jury decided he was party to the murder.

    But you still think you know better, huh? :roll:

    It sure puts your opinion on another high profile murder case into perspective.

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  83. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    DVM: You know me…always one to give the benefit of the doubt…Oh No no!! I just realised what those letters meant…please forgive me for repeating them…even briefly…God save us from another hijacked thread onto that one…

    Perhaps in a nod to the thespians among us, we could refer to it as “the Scottish Trial”??

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  84. DJP6-25 (1,386 comments) says:

    http://www.principia-scientific.org/michael-mann-faces-bankruptcy-as-his-courtroom-climate-capers-collapse.html

    Not a good day for the warmists. Prof Mann has lost his case against Mark Steyn and National Review etc.

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  85. goldnkiwi (1,303 comments) says:

    Re Fawcett. For the record I have no problem with the party or principal argument, guilty, I just do not think that he has implicated anyone else. A former mob member said that he had confessed to him, that too does not implicate or name any one else according to the msm at any rate.

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  86. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    goldenk: I have no doubt you are right that there were others involved in Manning’s murder, and that the whole truth hasn’t, and never will come out…in cases involving gang scum I guess we as a society just have to “take what we can get”, i.e. the established guilt of one or more of them, either as a party or a principal offender…I would strongly support some kind of “sentence enhancement” law which – say – increased whatever penalty was decided on by 10 years if the perpetrator was a gang member…

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  87. Rowan (2,292 comments) says:

    Elaycee
    I guess that settles it then, its a ‘safe’ conviction because the jury said so. If this is your basis for guilt then no more needs saying in the DB case.

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  88. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    I have followed the media coverage of the trial enough to hold the view that I do

    Rowan, there is really nothing more that needs to be said. You have summed up perfectly.

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  89. goldnkiwi (1,303 comments) says:

    DG
    Do you think that if he had in fact named names of principals or other parties that he should get a reduced sentence? I don’t, but otherwise why would you? No such thing as guaranteed protective custody in such an instance.

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  90. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    @Rowan…. you just don’t get it.

    Your bollocks statement last night has been disproved / debunked and consigned to the bin.

    Whether the decision in the Mellory Manning case is ‘safe’ or not, I don’t know – bit I do know the Jury has heard the evidence and you haven’t.

    But the scary thing for me is that you were proclaiming (from a distance) the accused should be declared innocent at a time when (a) you hadn’t heard the evidence (b) didn’t even know the applicable Law and (c) were clearly out of your depth in trying to piece it all together. If you add all three ingredients together, it doesn’t give me a lot of confidence your blind faith in your ’cause celebre’ would stand up to scrutiny either….

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  91. Rowan (2,292 comments) says:

    Elaycee
    I didn’t say he was ‘innocent’, just IMO ‘not guilty’, hence the rest of your argument is bollocks.

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  92. mandk (992 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett,

    I doubt that enhanced sentencing would work. I recently served on a jury in a MM related case, where it was pretty obvious that one of the defendants was prepared to serve a sentence in order to exculpate his fellow dog. It transpired at the sentencing that he had known no other life than the Mob so, in effect, that was his “duty”.

    It needs absolute zero tolerance of any gang related activity, but even then it would require special measures to offer some of the young lads a real alternative.

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  93. stephieboy (3,004 comments) says:

    Absolutely Moronic : Inside the mind of a Tea Party Senate Candidate.

    Why we should keep discrimination legal,

    http://www.salon.com/2014/03/10/absolutely_moronic_tea_party_senate_candidate_tells_salon_why_we_should_keep_discrimination_legal/

    The nutty Libertarian and Tea party legacy lives on both in the US and here.!

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  94. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    @Rowan: You’re right – you did say he should be found ‘not guilty’ rather than ‘innocent’. Apologies.

    But no apologies for the rest of my 2.37pm – it stands.

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  95. mandk (992 comments) says:

    If anyone is interested in exploring whether conventional justice can ever be effective in dealing with gangs, they might want to read “True Red”, by Tuhoe Isaac (a former Mongrel Mob leader). It’s scary and fascinating but, most of all, it clearly shows how far removed the gangs are from our societal norms. If you are a dog, prison is just an occupational hazard. For a young dog, it’s a badge of distinction.

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  96. kowtow (8,428 comments) says:

    mandk

    Some dogs should simply be put down.

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  97. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Djp6 whatever
    Distinguished Professor Manns case. as far as can be ascertained is still before the court. He is using the eight prior investigations into the alleged scientific fraud which have found no question of misconduct as proof of the libel. His data has been available online for almost a decade. The scientific research has moved on from 1998 and is now even more certain in its conclusions as to the unprecedented warming with no explanation accept human introduced co2.
    Our legal colleges posting above would give little chance to the professor being totally wiped out by a lawsuit from a wingnut with no legal representation.

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  98. Ed Snack (1,872 comments) says:

    For anyone interested in flight MH370, it seems that a significant Debris field has been sighted (by 3 aircraft at least) in the South China Sea off the SE coast of Vietnam about 80 Km from Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon for the unregenerate amongst you). This would appear to be both off the flight track and some 200 km from where it was last on radar. It would also be well within radar range of both civil and military in Vietnam one would think. This is also well outside the defined search area to date.

    It seems that the aircraft disappeared from Malaysian radar about 40 minutes into the flight but that could have been just poor atmospheric conditions for Radar and not necessarily abnormal though apparently unusual. Another aircraft reported talking to the pilot of MH370 10 minutes later (50 minutes into the flight), but the contact was cut off, no alarm raised.

    No certainty yet that this is “the” debris field, but if so strongly suggests something untoward happening on the flight with comms deliberately switched off or disabled. Almost certainly too far to fly crippled and damaged.

    Can I recommend this as a site for aircraft and airlines information. It’s Crikey and therefore not unbiased, but Ben Sandilands knows his stuff: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/

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  99. stephieboy (3,004 comments) says:

    mandk, there are some like Tuhoe “Bruno “Isaacs that have simply chosen to turn their lives around.That ultimately is the most effective ways in dealing with gangs. Bruno has chosen not to continue to be a” dog in prison.”
    A lesson there.!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/6388002/Former-Mob-leader-turned-to-God

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  100. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    mandk: My “sentence enhancement” proposal is solely for the purposes of keeping society safe from these vermin…in my view once you have crossed the line and joined one of the established gangs – either as a prospect or a full member – society has every right to write you off and have no concern whatever for your welfare or rehabilitation. (Other than basic but humane conditions in jail)

    The reason for that view is simple: Gang members, by definition, are “outlaws” – they regard themselves as outside of, and have disdain for, the laws the rest of us must obey. Without wishing to be rude to you, you are naive if you think prospects are “young lads” for whom there is some chance or hope they will become decent members of society. Other than in a tiny minority of cases, that chance vanished when they began to “prospect.”

    One of the most chilling experiences I had as an MP was a visit to a youth justice facility near Christchurch. It was for offenders aged 17 and under who were either on remand or had been sentenced in adult court, i.e. for serious offences of violence. Two things remain with me from my visit: firstly the dedication and humanity of the staff trying to teach these people; secondly how they all could readily identify the ones among their charges who were destined for “the Big House” next door.

    And the third thing I suppose was the threat by one of the inmates to “fuck [you] up” – jargon for a beating – because he didn’t like my views on the meaning and effect of the so called Treaty. Without the staff hovering close by, I am sure I would have been seriously assaulted.

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  101. Ed Snack (1,872 comments) says:

    Griffith, don’t talk rubbish; although DJP-6’s link is incorrect about the Tim Ball case and I would dismiss it.

    Mann has not been investigated 8 times, he is apparently referring to investigations in the UK relating to UK institutions (at least one of which as a by-the-by severely criticized Mann’s work with regard to statistics) as well as others that didn’t investigate him at all.

    He was, for example, investigated by a couple of Penn State investigations which were woefully inadequate. One was supposed to inquire as to whether Mann was involved in getting other researchers to delete emails and found that he wasn’t. That is despite the confirmed fact that Mann forwarded an email asking people to delete emails so they couldn’t be discovered by FOI requests to another researcher who has testified under oath that he did in fact subsequently delete all related emails ! So when’s there’s better than prima facie evidence, Penn State apparently simply asked Mann if he was complicit, and when he said no stopped looking. The evidence exists that he was at least tangentially involved (the other researcher was not on the original email distribution list so would not have been involved but for Mann) as a minimum, but the Penn State inquiry never actually made any investigations. You and Mann might call that cleared, I’d be thinking more of something like buckets of white-wash.

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  102. stephieboy (3,004 comments) says:

    Ed Snack, thanks for the info. TWA Flight 800 in 1997 disappeared in similar circumstances not long after takeoff .It blew up believed to be a faulty shorting electrical wire skirting an empty fuel tank.
    TWA 800 attracted a lot speculation and conspiracy theories including been hit by a missile.
    No doubt 370 will attract similar and maybe this time , say a South China seas Bermuda Triangle.?

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  103. All_on_Red (1,581 comments) says:

    DJP
    Griff is right about the case being still on.Mind you it’s the only thing he’s right about.
    “In a parallel Mann legal arena, Steve McIntyre now shows that in his legal reply to the NRO/Steyn lawsuit, Dr. Mann or his attorneys altered a quote from the Muir Russell inquiry that didn’t exist. Add this to the fake “Nobel Laureate” claim in Mann’s original lawsuit (a claim which he eventually removed in an amended complaint, on Facebook (before and after), and at RC without notice), and a pattern begins to emerge that might not be looked on too kindly by a presiding judge.

    He writes:
    In my most recent post, I showed that Mann’s claim to have been “exonerated” by the Oxburgh inquiry had no more validity than Mann’s claim to have won a Nobel prize. In today’s post, I’ll continue my series on the “investigations” by showing that Mann’s claim to have been “exonerated” by the Muir Russell inquiry is equally invalid.
    In their memoranda supporting their original motions to dismiss, both National Review and CEI had observed (correctly) that the Muir Russell panel had limited their findings to “CRU scientists” and contested Mann’s assertion that the Muir Russell panel had made any findings regarding Mann himself, let alone “exonerated” him.”

    There’s a lot more here pulling Manns FIVE claims to bits
    http://climateaudit.org

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  104. Ed Snack (1,872 comments) says:

    All-on-Red, best site to go to, yes, just I thought mentioning Climateaudit to Griff would lead to blood-pressure issues…

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  105. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Stephie: TWA 800 was the one that went down off Long Island, New York, wasnt it? I remember the conjecture at the time…the conclusion IIRC after exhaustive enquiry was accident not sabotage…They say you are much safer in a plane though, than driving a car…

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  106. stephieboy (3,004 comments) says:

    DG, TWA 800 revisited critically evaluating a conspiracy based documentary about the flight,

    http://www.askthepilot.com/twa-800-revisited/

    Exploding fuel tanks though rare can and do happen.

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  107. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Eight investigation into aspects of the alleged wrong doing
    and you still claim he is at fault. You are the ones talking rubbish.
    It is a repetitive pointless attempts to smear one scientist . A great side show for you wingnuts but totally irrelevant to the conclusions of modern palentolgolcal climate research. The hockey stick is not only holding up to real scientific scrutiny it is being extended back in time . Same conclusion unprecedented warming due to mans influence. just another avenue of scientific enquiry the supports the theory co2 = warming= climate change.

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  108. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    stephie: Thanks…conspiracies following planes vanishing without trace arent new of course…they are still debating what happened to Glenn Miller in 1944…

    Off to the side…remember UA811, the jumbo that lost its forward cargo door – and nine passangers with it – in 1989? I missed that same flight by one day…That’s as close as I ever want to come..the fascinating thing is United Airlines programmed their simulator with the performance characteristics of a 747 with a fucking great hole in the side…no pilot who tried could do what the actual pilot did, and put it safely back on the ground in Honolulu…

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  109. All_on_Red (1,581 comments) says:

    Ah Griff, it’s the last bit of the totally discredited Hockey Stick which is the problem. That single tree in Yamal is quite famous now/ sarc

    That aside- hope you are doing ok with your Dad.

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  110. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Can you read
    The hocky stick circa 1998 is so last century. Mann is one of thousands of scientists involved in reconstructing the climate record . Since 1998 his reputation and respect in scientific circles has only increased. Only in the wingnuts alternative reality is there any question of his integrity. Always it becomes your fantastical conspiracy theory’s :lol: wing nuts I have missed the daily laughter at your collective blind stupidity

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  111. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    the conclusion IIRC after exhaustive enquiry was accident not sabotage

    They switched to the “spark in the fuel tank” explanation after the stinger explanation was debunked. They had to start with the stinger explanation because there were too many witnesses who saw something like a bright flare go up and hit the plane.

    Tests of seat fabric which has been stained with a red residue confirmed the presence of chemical residue from a military solid fuel rocket motor.

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  112. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    On climate change…does Dunedin still use the slogan “Anxiously awaiting global warming”??

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  113. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    UT: Your post is confusing…are you saying this enquiry you cite concluded it HAD been hit by a stinger missile or not? I do recall eyewitness testimony which suggested something “streaking up from the ground”…

    But you are a registered conspiracy theorist arent you? The grassy knoll and everything else?

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  114. Ed Snack (1,872 comments) says:

    Arguing with a fantasist like Griff is a waste of time; just keep talking to yourself Griff, at least you’ll listen.

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  115. kowtow (8,428 comments) says:

    DG

    Best bumper sticker I’ve seen down here (after the “If you’re against drilling get out of your car and walk”)is

    Dunedin ,Riviera of the Antarctic.

    true.

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  116. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    climate audit
    A member blog of the denial echo chamber alternative reality.
    Stern has no legal representation. No lawyer will touch his case :lol:
    His last legal adviser was found to be a total fraud without qualification.

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  117. wreck1080 (3,905 comments) says:

    CO2 causes warming.

    This is undisputable science and it can be replicated in the lab.

    Enough CO2 in our atmosphere will warm it up.

    The question is the level of CO2 needed to cause warming on a global scale after braking effects are taken into account. eg, co2 causes increaes in plant production which absorbs more co2.

    On a geological timeline of the earth, co2 levels correlate with sea level changes. Assuming they measure these things correctly.

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  118. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    kowtow: Excellent! That’s better than Basil Fawlty claiming that Torquay was “the centre of the English Riviera”…I like the pro drilling one too…be fantastic news if they got a commercial field off the Otago coast…indigenous gas for the South Island…

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  119. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Why is the hocky stick significant ? The effect of known forcing like the suns orbit and output gives us an estimate for the future results of the forcing introduced by co2.
    Paleo climate multi discipline studys examine the geological records of past climate changes and apply what they learn to the modern changing atmospheric parameters. The forcing inherent in the little ice age and the roman warm period are used to predict the forcing effect of rising co2. If these changes where as significant as the deniers like to claim it means estimates of future warming are too small. Logic fail / wingnut norm.

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  120. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    If you had your own gas down there you have all you need to secede from NZ when the demands of the tangata whenua get too much…your iwi has just quietly got on with it and quadrupled their money…plus you outnumber them about 10-1…

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  121. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    UT: Your post is confusing…are you saying this enquiry you cite concluded it HAD been hit by a stinger missile or not?

    It wasn’t an enquiry, it was the initial explanation which asserted that it was an act of terrorism by an unknown party. It was only after this explanation was debunked that the accidental explosion narrative was adopted.

    I do recall eyewitness testimony which suggested something “streaking up from the ground”…

    There was a lot of it.

    http://www.angelfire.com/hi/TWA800/exhibit25a.html

    But you are a registered conspiracy theorist arent you? The grassy knoll and everything else?

    I try to find explanations that make sense. The MSM narrative doesn’t make sense with TWA800, just as it doesn’t with MH370, although IMO it is still too early to call foul for MH370.

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  122. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Good idea DG .
    But Why gas? The mainland has most of the hydro electricity. Keep the borders closed to all you northerners and the south could have the worlds highest living standard again.

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  123. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    UT: I’m sure the relevant authorities are very relieved you haven’t reached a firm conclusion about this latest disappearing aircraft…

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  124. Don the Kiwi (1,749 comments) says:

    Griff is right of course.

    Climate Change – that is, warming – caused the Niagara Falls to freeze over, doncha know. :-)

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  125. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Oh look the weather is cold on 2% of the earths surface that proves that the weather is cold “Duh” its called northern winter .

    wingnuts and their ice cream forehead moments.

    https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/service/global/map-blended-mntp/201401.gif

    pretty picture for screen lickers more red (hot) than blue (cold)=forth warmest january on record .

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  126. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Don: Yes…that of course is why “global warming” had to morph into “climate change”…because there wasn’t much warming..

    You know what worries me far more than supposed anthropogenic climate change? The coming “post antibiotic age”…That is REALLY coming (due to poor prescribing practices and other things all over the world) and that is a damn sight more scary than climate change…a return to the days when you could die from a small cut which went septic, and if you get pneumonia it’s all over bar the shouting…

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  127. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Couldn’t help yourself DG and you tried so hard to ignore me. Out with another stupid wingnut talking point .

    1988

    International panel on Climate Change.

    Global warming is the result of the energy imbalance created by adding a few million years worth of stored co2. Climate change is the changing climate patterns due to this warming . Both are undoubtably happening.

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  128. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    If you think an age where antibiotics dont work any more is a “stupid talking point” then you really reveal yourself to be a moron…Frankly I don’t give a fuck about climate change…man will adapt….but I am shit scared of my children getting a chest infection or a septic cut and dying because antibiotics no longer work…

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  129. chiz (1,144 comments) says:

    Oh dear. It turns out the two passengers with fake passports on MH370 were Iranian. How long before the conspiracy theories start?

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  130. Steve (North Shore) (4,559 comments) says:

    Rates,
    “Making all Aucklanders pay a council income tax may help elderly people in affluent areas who can’t afford their rates, mayor Len Brown says.

    The current system is “inherently unfair” on people living on fixed incomes and paying high rates because of the value of their properties in areas like Devonport-Takapuna, Brown says.”

    Maybe Penny thought she would suck on Aucklands’ tit once more to pay her bill.

    Sorry Penny, Len’s bullshit does not make sense and neither does yours

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  131. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    A sneak preview of a day in the life of an average NZ woman should the NZ Conservatives get to impose their crap on the electorate.

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6ftzrdfrw9t4wh/CCCP%202.jpg

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  132. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Nasska: And what pray is wrong with that scene of domestic bliss? Granted, the woman should be getting the husband a beer after his long day…but perhaps she is about to do so…She has her hands full right at the minute…

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  133. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (4,907 comments) says:
    March 11th, 2014 at 6:57 pm

    You can’t see what’s wrong with it?

    She clearly hasn’t taken up a part time job and purchased a flat screen TV for her husband and instead wasted money on toys for the kids.

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  134. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    A joke Judith…and not a bad one to boot…

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  135. DJP6-25 (1,386 comments) says:

    Bugger. It looks like it’s not case over for Dr Mann after all.

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  136. dirty harry (481 comments) says:

    A bit of vigilante justice is whats needed with the scum mongrel mob…pop a few off quietly.. no one would care, would be doing the country a favour.

    Filthy low lifes.. lower than pond scum.

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  137. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    Man: I’m a bit kinky. Was wondering what you could do for me?
    Woman: Well it depends, what kind of kinky?
    Man: I like to be totally dominated, degraded and humiliated
    Woman: Yea, no problem. It will cost you $150
    Man: Great, what do I get for that?
    Woman: A Hurricanes jersey…

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  138. RF (1,396 comments) says:

    Life is good. My spies in the Labour hint on a head to head clash between jones and cunliffe. It’s going to be interesting as jones is more popular in the caucus.

    The useless prick Mickey Savage has fallen from grace and scrambling to get back into favour with the silent t.

    Labour are also in panic mode after being so confident of a November election

    An’t life grand.

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  139. Johnboy (16,483 comments) says:

    “Nasska: And what pray is wrong with that scene of domestic bliss?”

    Ahh.. She’s barefoot and possibly pregnant but not in the kitchen and hubby is starting to look pissed cause his dinner isn’t ready? :)

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  140. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Treasury says budget deficit of NZ$1.063 bln in 7 mths to Jan was NZ$637 mln worse than forecast; sees underlying weakness in GST receipts

    Treasury has reported the Government’s Operating Balance before Gains and Losses (OBEGAL) was a deficit of NZ$1.063 billion in the seven months to the end of January, which was NZ$637 million worse than forecast in the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU) in December.

    Treasury said core tax revenues were NZ$892 million below forecast, but this was partly offset by core spending being NZ$138 million lower than forecast.

    It said GST receipts were NZ$354 million lower than forecasts, with a third of that because of earthquake related refunds, which was likely to worsen further.
    ====================

    For the November figures Treasury said there were timing issues. They said the same for December. But the third time even Treasury admits it doesn’t know why the books are even more in the red. Once looks like misfortune, twice looks like carelessness. Three times sounds like mismanagement,” Parker said.

    “Either the much-hyped ‘rock star’ economy has already turned into a one-hit wonder or National isn’t as good at running the books as it claims to be,” he said.

    “If the economy is recovering the tax take should be increasing and the deficit reducing. The opposite is happening. Serious questions need to be asked of National’s economic credibility.”

    http://www.interest.co.nz/news/68899/treasury-says-budget-deficit-nz1063-bln-7-mths-jan-was-nz637-mln-worse-forecast-sees-unde

    Please repeat again how well the economy is.

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  141. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Johnboy: quite so! and she’s also focusing on the brats and not HIM…nothing a lick of the razor strop wouldnt cure!! Remember them?

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  142. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    nasska

    Re: ‘Serious questions need to be asked of National’s economic credibility’.

    I don’t thinks so. It’s not NATIONAL’S economic credibility that should be questioned, it’s the competence of the advisors in Treasury who, by their own admission, ‘…[Don't] know why the books are even more in the red’. Any CEO is only as good as his advisors and since the PM cannot obviously check every minute detail about the economy (although he would no doubt be able to), he has no option but to rely on his advisors, in this case the ‘guru’s’ in Treasury. They are the ‘experts’ in the field, BUT they are, at best, only soothsayers, (‘guesser’s’ if you will), who can make ‘educated guesses’ but cannot say with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY’, what will happen.

    Because of this fact, your statement should really read ‘Serious questions need to be asked of TREASURY’S economic credibility’ (Credit where credit is due, and all that..).

    BTW: A thought to consider: What would happen if, for idealogical reasons, the ‘experts’ in treasury were deliberately giving the PM incorrect information, before suddenly becoming all ‘sweetness and light’ with their forecasts when their favoured party came to power?

    Human nature being what it is, the possibility is there (‘Yes Minister’ comes to mind).

    As I said, just a thought…

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  143. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    Komata

    It was V2’s comment.

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  144. cha (4,008 comments) says:

    Some plane pron, B-52 Navigator and Bombardier downstairs in ejection seats that exit the aircraft through the bottom of the hull.

    http://31.media.tumblr.com/252dc22fc1f4591d472da635cab1af04/tumblr_n1iwc3O2z21rm2152o1_1280.jpg

    http://flying-fortress.tumblr.com/

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  145. David Garrett (7,270 comments) says:

    Fuck me…at least two morons think I am serious…

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  146. Ed Snack (1,872 comments) says:

    More on MH370, it seems quite likely that the Malaysians know more about the flight than they are willing to reveal yet. The search area to the west of the Malay peninsula must suggest that the aircraft took a 180 degree turn after it went off the radar; it’s probably military radar tracking that they have. And the earlier report of a debris field off Vietnam’s east coast seems to have been discounted, not aircraft remains. So what the hell has happened, and why out west, to lose the aircraft in deep water or something…?

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  147. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    “He” is wearing leotards.

    Just sayin’ …

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  148. srylands (410 comments) says:

    The stock price of a Labour Election win is collapsing spectacularly on Ipredict.

    PM.2014.LABOUR
    Last Trade Price: $0.2689

    https://www.ipredict.co.nz/app.php?do=contract_detail&contract=PM.2014.LABOUR

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  149. Manolo (13,735 comments) says:

    Unionists and untidy rednecks:
    Teachers in West Virginia’s largest school district don’t want to be told they can’t show up for work in jeans and flip-flops.

    The Kanawha County school district’s board of ed last week introduced a proposed dress code, which also bars facial piercings, and immediately got a dressing down from the teachers union. It’s not that the local teachers want to wear their weekend attire, they insist, it’s that codifying it so strictly is insulting.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/11/west-virginia-teachers-union-battles-proposed-ban-on-flip-flops-jeans-and-face/

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