General Debate 13 March 2014

March 13th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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208 Responses to “General Debate 13 March 2014”

  1. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    Breeders: How Gay Men Destroyed the Left.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/03/breeders_how_gay_men_destroyed_the_left.html

    Walk into an orphanage, any orphanage, where kids range in age from infants to teens and yell out –

    “Who wants a mum and dad?”

    And you’ll see the 2 results – all kids want a ‘mum and dad’ – and so no child is ‘born gay’.

    “….We do live in a nation where slaveholders took the infants from the arms of my foremothers and sold them for their own profit. We do live in a nation where the government snatched American Indian children from their families and “re-educated” them by forbidding them to speak their language and practice their traditions……….
    ………..No defender of third-world people can seriously turn a blind eye to surrogacy, now that baby brokers are turning to cheaper venues like Thailand, Mexico, India, Ghana, and Nigeria to farm babies. Often the aspiring couple brings eggs donated by a white woman and then has the child gestate inside a brown woman’s uterus. The conditions of some of these baby factories are, needless to say, atrocious, and little more than barracks patrolled by thugs….”

    It is almost inconceivable that the movement to legitimise surrogacy could have set up shop on the Left, where the three most sacred cows are race, class, and gender – all of which are areas of inequality aggravated and abused by the surrogacy industry’s pattern of using poor women of color, especially overseas, to breed human beings who are then placed under the ownership of wealthy men, the lion’s share of whom are white. :cool:

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  2. nasska (12,122 comments) says:

    It’s a good job that the Catholic Church wasn’t around to denounce surrogacy when Jesus was born.

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  3. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    It is with sadness one has to watch embarrassment of a capable, hard working, and honest politician, at the instigation of a weirdo leftie, who has contributed nothing to this country, other than a deviant agenda, backed by envious good for nothing deviants it represents.

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  4. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Harriet, the rather nasty and vindictive Ameriacan Thinker in action,

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/04/the_obama_lie_that_drove_the_b.html

    The article has no factual foundation.!

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  5. Bovver (173 comments) says:

    Don’t worry Harriet, judgement day is just around the corner and we can all look forward to the rapture……….

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  6. WineOh (636 comments) says:

    @igm … wait… wat?

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  7. Bovver (173 comments) says:

    Crusher dug her own hole igm, Paddy just managed to exploit it, and now JK is seriously pissed off and her parliamentary career has taken a hit with SJ being the winner.

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  8. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “…..It’s a good job that the Catholic Church wasn’t around to denounce surrogacy when Jesus was born….”

    “…..The greatest evil of slavery was the fact that children were taken from their parents and sold to other people, because the wound could never be healed. Even once they were freed, the descendants were denied their own origins and had to live with the scars of having been torn from their own kin, as well as the memory of having been someone’s property. As a descendant of slaves, I know this. I can sit in an office with my PhD and sip designer latte, gaze out at LA through my high-rise office window, and feel equal, but no matter what I do, I can never rewrite the fact that my great-great-grandmother was a Puerto Rican slave raped by a white man. It was this intergenerational wound that finally became intolerable to the Christians of the 19th century. Only with the rise of a bourgeois nuclear family ideal in the industrialized world could people compute that a system designed to buy children and separate them from their kin can only be wrong. If you learn nothing else from reading the vast library of slave narratives, you must learn that. Or else, write to your graduate program and tell them you are going to return your PhD….”

    “…..Eventually, gender joined race and class to form the triumvirate of the left’s social critiques. All three of these categories reflected the needs of large groups of people who had clear grievances, people who had suffered widespread institutionalized violence, confinement, and deprivation that were irrefutable in the annals of history. Had this triangle of causes remained sacrosanct, there is no way surrogacy would have led the left back to human bondage.

    But then came gay men. Somehow “sexual orientation” was jimmied into the triangle of race, class, and gender. Homosexuals were deemed an oppressed people despite the flimsiest of historical grievances.
    Gay men were teased about their sexual tastes and had to face anti-sodomy laws, which made it hard for them to find erotic release. They had the option of lying to protect themselves. Living a lie is hard, but living a lie when you enjoy all the economic, racial, and patriarchal advantages of having to worry only about your sex life is hardly on the scale of Jim Crow, women not having the right to vote, or poor people starving during times of famine or unemployment. There is an enormous difference between systematic, large-scale persecution and simply facing barriers to sexual pleasure….”

    The gays won’t be listened to for much longer. :cool:

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  9. tvb (4,566 comments) says:

    Yes I think Judith Collins may have damaged any long term Leadership prospects. I never felt they were all that great because of her personality deficiencies. Now she will be seen as a bit shifty and lacks the easy going manner needed to get away with it.

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  10. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    @’Harriet’ – Have you been forgetting to use sunscreen and wear a hat?

    The Queensland sun seems to have fried your brain. 8O

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  11. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    See another teachers’ union member has been committing indecencies on youngsters with protection from detection . . . bet this won’t happen in Charter Schools.

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  12. Ross12 (1,489 comments) says:

    Don’t worry igm @ 8.08am–this Collins issue will be next weeks “fish & chip” news as we used to say. It is a long time since I have seen something blown so far out of proportion as this.

    But Labour are so bereft of ideas they have to try something to divert away from Cunliffe’s bumbling, Robertson’s non existence in the media the fact that people like Trotter have given up before the year has really started.

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  13. Keeping Stock (9,392 comments) says:

    @ tvb – I agree wholeheartedly. Judith Collins’ political radar went haywire, and even though everything may in fact be above board, she has given the Opposition a sniff of scandal. The whole issue should have been shut down immediately, and had Collins made a full Cabinet disclosure at the time, it wouldn’t even be an issue.

    That said, Winston Peters’ mocking of her husband’s name yesterday was blatant racism, and he should be absolutely slammed for it.

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/key-puts-collins-on-notice.html

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  14. Bill (94 comments) says:

    Judith Collins is a member of the Fulbright New Zealand Alumni Association according to her Beehive Bio.

    The Fullbright.org.nz website does not list her as a “Grantee” or “Alumni”.

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  15. WineOh (636 comments) says:

    Harriet, your anti-gay agenda belongs in a shameful dark age of the past.

    Gays have had to endure very deliberate persecution in the past… and in the case of some backwards communities still do. Witness Russia and Nigeria and virtually the entire middle east at the moment. Its not about barriers to sexual release, that is a terrible way of triviliasing the issues … its about a basic acceptance of who they are.

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  16. Bovver (173 comments) says:

    Winston First reminds me of Sir Robert Muldoon’s quote on becoming a back bencher after losing the 84 election ‘I’m not going to be a thorn in the side of Government, just a small prick’ (or words to that effect)

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  17. Pete George (23,841 comments) says:

    The Judith Collins mess along with David Cunliffe’s “week from hell” highlight The importance of transparency.

    Being up front and honest avoids one of the worst of political faux pas, being found to stuff up the reaction to an issue.

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  18. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Far better to do it the catholic sanctioned way harry.
    Like happened here
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sidonie-sawyer/-the-true-scandal-of-the-_b_4509415.html

    Locked away with no identities, no visits, no human rights, the women were treated as criminals without any trials and no judgments. They had to scrub prison floors, cook for the nuns, take care of aging prisoners and other tasks nobody wanted to do. They all lost their children to adoptive families chosen by the nuns.

    From 1765 to the late 1990, about 30,000 women were incarcerated and deprived of normal lives for a youth mischief that their own church was not able to forgive. Supported by the State and the Church, the goal of theses institutions was to rehabilitate “fallen” women into society, but in reality, their return to freedom was seldom a fact.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/two-magdalene-orders-reaffirm-compo-refusal-261358.html
    says it all.

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  19. calendar girl (1,261 comments) says:

    Funny how retail petrol prices remain stubbornly high at the pumps. Today the price of crude oil has gone down over 2% in US$ terms, while the NZ$ has appreciated around 4% against the US$ over the last month.

    It will be interesting, again, to see how long it takes for local consumers to see the benefits of such changes flow through into retail prices – as opposed to when cost factors head the other way. There is an oligopoly in this critical sector of the NZ economy that – in my view – is long overdue for a searching, public inquiry by the Commerce Commission.

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  20. kowtow (8,948 comments) says:

    Problem is now law enforcement will take into account your sexuality when they consider charges.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579192/Gay-theatre-student-claimed-beaten-homophobic-thugs-admits-got-injuries-fell-WONT-face-action-wasting-police-time.html

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  21. Bovver (173 comments) says:

    I agree Calendar girl, I was in Brisbane last month, the NZD was 96 cents on the cross rate, yet petrol was only $1.60 litre, the difference can’t only be because of the different taxation rates for petrol?

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  22. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    WineOh#

    “….Its not about barriers to sexual release, that is a terrible way of triviliasing the issues … its about a basic acceptance of who they are…..”

    You mean a basic acceptance of ‘who’ babies are – or just gay babies? – We do have both sorts don’t we?

    Hetrosexual babies have natural rights to a biological upbringing.

    A person should be deemed harmed if they were contractually denied being raised by their biological parent(s). They should have legal claims against those who sold and received them.
    The adoption process should remain as a form of welfare, but while still at least recognising that a person has a right to be raised by a man and woman, not two men or two women, or one of each.

    If it were me, a hetrosexual, I would want to be able to sue an adoption agency that gave me to anything but a healthy heterosexual couple.
    Individuals should start seeking legal opinion against their parents, adoption agencies, and government, for breaching their rights to a biological upbringing.

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  23. Ed Snack (1,941 comments) says:

    Bovver, but it is, mostly. There are also independent chains in NZ who import petrol directly rather than get it refined in NZ, so there is plenty of competition. Trouble is, they’re all selling the same stuff with essentially zero distinguishing features, and in such a market prices normally move pretty much together. There’s little brand loyalty except through specific discount schemes, so why reduce your margin for a small initial gain that will disappear when the others match your price. Your are then in the same competitive position but at a lower profitability level. It doesn’t take conspiracy, just normal rational market actors.

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  24. WineOh (636 comments) says:

    @ Harriet
    “If it were me, a hetrosexual, I would want to be able to sue an adoption agency that gave me to anything but a healthy heterosexual couple.”

    Your prejudice assumes that gay parents are worse at raising a child than straight parents. The statistics actually support the opposite of this. Why should a child have the right to “sue” for any particular type of parent. What about suing for having poor parents. Or parents that divorce. Or have an illness. Follow your arguments back to their logical conclusions.

    Incidentally, I have both gay friends and family members (both female couples) who are raising children – their biological mother and their partners. They are terrific parents.

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  25. Bovver (173 comments) says:

    Thanks for that explanation Ed, and I do see that the tax component of petrol in Australia is roughly half that of NZ’s.

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  26. Ed Snack (1,941 comments) says:

    MH 370 update for anyone interested. Only real possible news is that China has announced that it is to investigate three large items spotted via satellite scans (from possibly as early as 9 March) in the South China Sea. These items are quite large at around10-20 metres across (which seems large for aircraft remains) and are within a reasonable distance of each other. Location is off the track a little but not too far, sort of SE to ESE from the southern tip of Vietnam. No word on when they’ll get there, of course the items may well have vanished by the time anyone arrives at the location as it is some days after they were seen.

    Malaysian information release continues to be confused, a possible radar sighting mentioned last night at 200 miles NW of Penang may be a red herring. That’s not far off Phuket and definitely in Thai airspace, thee was a Singapore Airways jet very close to that location at that time, and the location is possible for MH 370 but not by much. The search has extended further into the Andaman Sea, closer to Indian airspace that should have been monitored from the Andaman Islands where there is a definite Indian military presence.

    Note also that apparently Vietnamese military radar is supposed to cover the entire Gulf of Thailand up to the Malaysian Coast; MH 370 is supposed to have been well off the coast when last seen via its transponder, I wonder if the Vietnamese military records show the track, in theory they should. But maybe they’re like the Malaysians and there’s no live coverage or perhaps no decent recording of radar logs.

    So little new. It was a pretty hostile press conference with the Malaysians pretty defensive. It did seem according to at least one reporter that some of the politicians involved had just received a heavy dose of media training and they stuck to their rehearsed lines rather more efficiently.

    Biggest query, if the aircraft did disintegrate in midair, should there be a detectable debris field, and is it possible for there not to be one ? The South China Sea seems pretty well full of junk and fuel spills, but if a debris field is expected and hasn’t been seen via search and retrospective satellite viewing, then most likely it didn’t go down immediately.

    For those who want to follow this themselves, the Grauniad has a good live blog, Plane Talking on Crikey is good, Pprune is a pilots chat site, and the Aviation Herald is another source. All are easily found via Google.

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  27. Ed Snack (1,941 comments) says:

    Wine oh, anecdotes are not data. You have a carefully selected item of data that cannot be considered representative.

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  28. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “….Your prejudice assumes that gay parents are worse at raising a child than straight parents….Follow your arguments back to their logical conclusions……..”

    You assume it.

    I said that hetrosexual babies have a right to a biological upbringing. If adopted, that right remains. If gays have rights based upon ‘how they are born’ then it is [logical conclusion] hetrosexuals have those same rights too. :cool:

    Gays can’t have it both ways WineOh. :cool:

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  29. kowtow (8,948 comments) says:

    Ed
    RadioAotearoa formerlty New Zealand reported a NZer on an oil rig said he saw a fireball or somesuch. In the S China sea.Somewhere off Vietnam.

    I reckon with all the fishing boats, military etc in that area someone must know something.

    Also if true it means the Malay military radar and all that stuff about the turn is bollox. But then I wouldn’t expect much less of them.

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  30. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    “Your prejudice assumes that gay parents are worse at raising a child than straight parents. The statistics actually support the opposite of this. ”

    Would love to see those. I doubt they exist.

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  31. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    “I said that hetrosexual babies have a right to a biological upbringing.”

    Huh????

    I’m not sure I understand what that sentence means. And what on earth Harriet is a “heterosexual” baby?

    Fixed sexual orientation is a theory, and not a particularly good one.

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  32. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    “Incidentally, I have both gay friends and family members (both female couples) who are raising children – their biological mother and their partners. They are terrific parents.”

    I personally think there are serious issues with children being raised without both a mum and a dad, but that would apply to other less than ideal situations as well.

    In fact, the most up to date information we have is that psychologically, children need one of both genders.

    But reality is messy so….

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  33. dirty harry (533 comments) says:

    Gays cant have it both ways. If you choose faggery you give up the right to have children.

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  34. dime (10,231 comments) says:

    Ed – cheers for the updates!

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  35. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    “Gays cant have it both ways. If you choose faggery you give up the right to have children.”

    I’m a conservative Christian, and I happily affirm that the above statement is just plain dumb.

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  36. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Harry it is 75 kids a year.
    The way it works now the mother is involved in the process.
    If She/He/harry It has a preference for a gay couple.
    Not Our business.
    http://adoptionoption.org.nz/adoption/new-zealand-adoption-prof/

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  37. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “………….“I said that hetrosexual babies have a right to a biological upbringing.”
    I’m not sure I understand what that sentence means…………..”

    I should have placed the word hetrosexual in.[ a hetrosexual biological upbringing]. My mistake.

    All this is over the fact that gays have rights based upon their sexuality – and hetrosexuals do too. So hetrosexual babies do have the right to a – hetrosexual upbringing.

    The problem with the gay arguement is that they think that the rights of babies is different to the rights of adults – where cars and guns are concerned that’s reasonable – but babies arn’t cars and guns.

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  38. Ross12 (1,489 comments) says:

    Ed
    You are obviously following the lost plane news closely. A couple of days ago I read somewhere on the Net ( sorry I’ve forgotten the source) that some Chinese people with relations/friends on board had tried ringing them on cell phones and got a “live” phone response but no answer. This was a day or so after the plane was lost. Have you read anything similar ? It all seemed abit strange to me but then everything about this incident is strange.

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  39. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    Then in that case Harriet I would have to disagree. Such a right cannot be established without violating the non-aggression principle.

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  40. Ed Snack (1,941 comments) says:

    Kowtow, yes, saw that. It’s another possibility, the Vietnamese were supposed to be responding with a surface search. However the directions are a little odd, the distances pretty extreme for any ID of an aircraft. Could well have been a meteor, but any clue is worth investigating. It could tie with the new pieces of whatever that the Chinese say they’ve seen. A big enough fire though *should* have been seen from monitoring satellites at the time! and that footage has been reviewed. May not of course been big enough for that.

    Thee can’t be a particularly obvious debris field though, and not sure why not. Maybe SCS is too dotted with junk to make it easy. AF 447 did get found from debris in a week, and that was in 12,000 ft of water.

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  41. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, not genetic. If people wish to live this way then they should be prepared to make sacrifices . . . not at the expense of hetrosexuals.

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  42. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Cyclone Lusi is expected to move out of the tropics Friday or Saturday.
    Current forecasts track Lusi just west of the North Island on Saturday
    then across the upper South Island on Sunday, before moving away to the
    east on Monday..
    http://www.met.gov.fj/aifs_prods/65661.html

    The chance of significant storm surge. flooding and gale force winds remains high for the weekend.

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  43. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    If we, meaning Christians, want to convince other’s of the rightness of Godly living, then the only way Christ gave us to do that is by gentle persuasion and by living in such a way as to be an example to others. Christ never said anything about getting the State to force our views upon other people, and whenever the Church has gone down that path, to that degree it has abandoned the Gospel, with terrible results. Christ said “Do not lord it over others as the Pagans do” (referring to Caesar).

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  44. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ igm (650 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 9:48 am

    Actually, your statement is not completely true. There are some forms of homosexuality where imbalances in hormones etc which mean that although the person has the genitalia of a male, they are also driven by feminine tendencies.

    As the human species has become a more socially constructed being, you also need to take into account the effects of that socialization on some individuals who are no longer driven by purely biological aspects of their being.

    You also need to account for why homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom before you can get away with ‘it is a lifestyle choice’ argument. Unless you are suggesting that animals make lifestyle choices?

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  45. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “…..The way it works now the mother is involved in the process….”

    It’s irrelevant.

    The child grows while being denied of their own origins and has to live with the scars of having been torn from their own kin.

    It’s not about the ‘desires’ of ‘adults’ Griff but about the ‘needs’ of children WHILE growing.

    Anyway Griff, hope all’s well. Cheers.

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  46. Manolo (14,198 comments) says:

    A pair of disgraceful thieves: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11218603

    A principal and her husband siphoned off more than $30,000 from a decile one school in South Auckland and splashed out on themselves. Rather than the money going towards pupil education at Mayfield Primary School in Otara, Colleen Margaret Gray, 66, and Bruce Kenneth Gray, 65, jetted to Australia and to London.

    Colleen Gray also used the school credit card for food at Mecca at Mission Bay and Francoli Bar and Restaurant in Ellerslie.

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  47. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ griffith (55 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 9:52 am

    Griffith I’ve been busy and haven’t caught up with the news, has the storm lessened in intensity as predicted?

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  48. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Manolo (12,384 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 9:57 am

    And what’s the bet they will get community service and be unable to pay reparation.

    What a disgraceful example to the children of the school they are associated with.

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  49. Manolo (14,198 comments) says:

    The beastly Kuka to stay behind bars: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11218823

    The mother of tortured Rotorua three-year-old Nia Glassie has had her parole revoked by the Parole Board.
    Lisa Michelle Kuka was granted parole last month because the board said she no longer posed an undue risk to the community.

    She was due to be released on April 7.

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  50. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Manolo (12,385 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 9:59 am

    That is not the least bit surprising. She is not only a ‘piece of work’ but a master manipulator. Hopefully the parole board has finally realised this.

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  51. Manolo (14,198 comments) says:

    The Luddites are as nutty as you can get. As if money grew on trees:

    The Greens want to build up to $200 million in cycle lanes and walkways around schools if they are in government, and funding would be redirected from “low-value” projects such as the Holiday Highway north of Auckland.

    The Green Party revealed in a policy paper published this morning that it hoped to reverse this trend by investing $50 million a year over four years into infrastructure such as cycleways. If it was successful, the policy would reduce congestion, carbon emissions and child obesity rates.

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  52. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    “Colleen Gray also used the school credit card for food at Mecca at Mission Bay and Francoli Bar and Restaurant in Ellerslie.”

    Er… she did not stop to think that when you use a credit card it leaves a permanent record? And this person was in charge of a school???

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  53. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “…..then the only way Christ gave us to do that is by gentle persuasion and by living in such a way as to be an example to others….”

    True – but by seperating the sin from the sinner. Hate the sin and love the sinner.

    Jesus was very angry when he spoke of sin, and we must also be angry of sin. But we must also be compassionate towards the sinner. The problem is that the ‘sinners’ conflate the two at their conveniance. Cry ‘sin’ and they cry ‘offended’. When I’m questioned from a Christian perspective about what I say, I just repeat the seperation – but most here know that so I seldom have to.

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  54. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ tvb (3,875 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 8:20 am

    Yes, yet another good reason not to vote for John Key. Crusher could do a ‘Jenny Shipley’ and we could end up with her in the top seat.

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  55. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    I understand what you mean Harriet, but I wonder if part of the negative reaction is that some Christians spend far too much time hating other peoples sins, instead of their own. “Remove the forest from your own eye before worrying about the speck in your brothers.”

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  56. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Most of the argument you spout is irrelevant harry. :lol: You may get a vote off for this mornings homophobic rant
    Still if no one stirs the pot…..

    ps the old man is off meds for type 2 diabetes and his leg ulcer and swelling is now 95 resolved. The old dude is showing a lot more interest in the world as well. It’s all about standard of living and small gains.

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  57. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Manolo (12,386 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 10:02 am

    Well they do claim to be more in touch with ‘mother nature’ than the rest of us, perhaps they have worked out how to grow money on trees – when you know you will never be the governing party, you can make any promise you like.

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  58. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    “women not having the right to vote”

    Giving women the right to vote was a mistake. Giving men the right to vote was also a mistake. :)

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  59. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “……You also need to account for why homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom before you can get away with ‘it is a lifestyle choice’ argument. Unless you are suggesting that animals make lifestyle choices?…’

    Judith – there is nothing to understand about homosexuality in animals – it’s base animal behaviour.

    There really is no gay animals, as animals ‘actually seen by humans’ to be gay – end up being bi when they are placed soley with female animals. We are talking cows and horses ect – not the sea creatures where the male is the one who gets pregnant – as that proves nothing about ‘real gay behaviours’.

    They’re animals Judith – if it fits – it fits.

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  60. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    LOL Shawn :cool:

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  61. Manolo (14,198 comments) says:

    Honesty and transparency according to the Kenyan’s administration: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/12/world/americas/wanted-by-ecuador-2-brothers-make-mark-in-us-campaigns.html?hp&_r=2#story-continues-1

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  62. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ harriet

    I’m sorry, but I am of the belief that we are ‘all animals’ to.

    Just read the newspapers, there is plenty of evidence that supports my assertions.

    However, I respect your beliefs, they were the same held by my parents. I just don’t agree with them, so I guess one day who is right will be obvious. If you are right, you will get to think ‘I told her so, as I burn in hell’ and if I am right, neither of us will know, because death is the final act of life in my opinion. Either way I still think you’re an ok guy Harry! :-)

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  63. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (320 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 10:11 am

    I totally agree, and one day when I am dictator, I will make sure the right is removed, and it is never granted again! :-)

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  64. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    We are animals harry

    If it fits …

    which it does

    It fits !

    :shock:

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  65. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    “Yes, yet another good reason not to vote for John Key. Crusher could do a ‘Jenny Shipley’ and we could end up with her in the top seat.”

    I think that’s unlikely. Bolger was pretty unpopular at the time, and Shiply had the numbers. I can’t see that happening with Key. Unlike Bolger Key’s political instincts and his ability to keep most of the public onside are pretty sharp.

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  66. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    “I totally agree, and one day when I am dictator, I will make sure the right is removed, and it is never granted again!”

    In that case I will vote for you Judith! :)

    Oh…wait a minute…

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  67. Ed Snack (1,941 comments) says:

    Just FYI on MH370. Much has been made of an FAA directive issued in June 2013 requiring repairs to satellite antenna housings on B777 aircraft. The MAS representative at last nights press conference was unable to say if MH 370 had been repaired following this directive. However new information from Boeing just released says that not all B777-200ER models had this antenna housing, and specifically that this particular aircraft did not. Thus it cannot be invoked as a possible cause.

    That doesn’t rule out explosive decompression or some other decompression event, however it cannot be related to a non-existent antenna housing. A separate suggestion is the explosion of a crew oxygen bottle leading to either a fire or the disabling of electrical equipment from a rocket effect of a fractured bottle. The rocket effect was seen on a Qantas flight several years ago and can be very destructive. This would also lead to the absence of emergency oxygen in the cockpit as well causing rapid anoxia. But it would most probably lead to rapid deterioration of the aircraft’s ability to fly.

    Reviewed the NZ Oil Rig workers sighting and it doesn’t match very well with the Chinese debris, but could be related if the aircraft flew/glided for some distance while turning somewhat to the right. Chinese debris for those interested is/was at “+6° 42′ 0″,+105° 37′ 47.9994″ (this works in Google maps, not sure about anything immediately up to date though). Original picture from 9 March, detected on 10th. China showing off its technical superiority. Wonder if the US had “birds” photographing the area ?

    Still clutching at straws and nothing really positive.

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  68. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Key has indicated politics is not part of his envisioned future.
    National needs an orderly and managed transition to his successor.
    Probably during the coming cycle.
    To start the debate before Key serves notice has no useful purpose for any of the present candidates .
    Far better solidarity behind Das Leader till seconds after the election is counted.

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  69. Jack5 (5,302 comments) says:

    Is anyone on the General Debate thread today able to elaborate on two comments made in the Kiwiblog thread yesterday, Key on Flag.

    It seemed to indicate that some of our posters are young people who have changed gender, and that other posters pick on them on Kiwiblog.

    I don’t want to scrap verbally with such young people if they are in internal turmoil. So can anyone throw further light on Dime and Gump’s assertions please?

    Dime posted 8.18 last night:

    Long knives – you know kiwiblog is where all the tranny kids hang out, please don’t bully them.

    and Gump responded at 11.10, recounting experience of a teenager who transformed from male to female committed suicide, and added:

    It really gives me the shits that people here are prepared to pick on transgender kids. Because they really don’t choose to be the way they are.

    If you are reading this Dime or Gump, please elaborate.

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  70. Fletch (6,533 comments) says:

    Far better to do it the catholic sanctioned way harry.
    Like happened here

    Nope. Propaganda alert.

    The publication last week of the Irish government’s McAleese Report on the Magdalene laundries has proved kind of awkward for Catholic-bashers. For if McAleese’s thorough, 1,000-page study is to be believed, then it would appear that those laundries were not as evil and foul as they had been depicted over the past decade. Specifically the image of the laundries promoted by the popular, much-lauded film The Magdalene Sisters – which showed them as places where women were stripped, slapped, sexually abused and more – has been called into question by McAleese.

    This has led even The Irish Times, which never turns down an opportunity to wring its hands over Catholic wickedness, to say: “There is no escaping the fact that the [McAleese] report jars with popular perceptions.”

    In the Irish mind, and in the minds of everyone else who has seen or read one of the many films, plays and books about the Magdalene laundries, these were horrific institutions brimming with violence and overseen by sadistic, pervy nuns. Yet the McAleese Report found not a single incident of sexual abuse by a nun in a Magdalene laundry. Not one. Also, the vast majority of its interviewees said they were never physically punished in the laundries.

    As one woman said, “It has shocked me to read in papers that we were beat and our heads shaved and that we were badly treated by the nuns… I was not touched by any nun and I never saw anyone touched.” The small number of cases of corporal punishment reported to McAleese consisted of the kind of thing that happened in many normal schools in the 1960s, 70s and 80s: being caned on the legs or rapped on the knuckles. The authors of the McAleese Report, having like the rest of us imbibed the popular image of the Magdalene laundries as nun-run concentration camps, seem to have been taken aback by “the number of women who spoke positively about the nuns”.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100202781/catholic-bashers-have-embellished-the-truth-about-abuse-in-catholic-institutions-its-time-to-put-the-record-straight/

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  71. publicwatchdog (3,163 comments) says:

    FYI Kiwibloggers :)

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/bridges-edges-collins-favourite-replace-key-ck-153133%20%20.

    My comment – yet to be printed….
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    What Minister of Justice – Judith Collins did – was not a ‘perceived conflict of interest’ – it was a REAL conflict of interest.

    In my considered opinion, as an anti-corruption campaigner, who has now attended three international anti-corruption conferences, listened to the experts, met the experts, studied the literature, and applied what I know to the New Zealand situation, I am sad to say that New Zealand is rotten with corruption, particularly at the highest levels.

    If ‘all power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely’ – then God help us if Judith Collins ever became Prime Minister!

    The opportunities for ‘insider trading’ , for misuse of public office for private pecuniary gain, would be potentially enormous………..

    In my considered opinion, it is not ‘CRUSHER Collins, or CONNIVING Collins – it is CORRUPT Collins – end of story.

    If Prime Minister John Key does not sack her forthwith – from Parliament, never mind Cabinet, then, in my considered opinion, he too is guilty of a corrupt cover-up, and he too, is NOT ‘fit for duty’.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption Public Watchdog’

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  72. Fletch (6,533 comments) says:

    As far as same-sex adoption, back in 2005 the Spanish did a meta-study of all the reports and found that many of them were highly biased and that there is ample evidence that same-sex adoption is not in the best interests of children.

    MADRID, Spain (LifeSiteNews.com) – In light of a pending vote in the Spanish Senate on same-sex marriage HazteOir, together with the Spanish Forum for the Family and the Institute for Family Policy, has published and distributed an in-depth report on the effects that being raised by same-sex parents has on a child. The report, entitled “Report on Infantile Development in Same-Sex Couples” and available only in Spanish at this time, gathers and compares information from a vast number of studies carried out on the issue.

    HazteOir, concerned by the apparent unquestioning acceptance in Spain of homosexual adoption, hopes that the wide array of information provided in the report and its extensive bibliography will prove to the Senate that homosexual parentage is harmful for children.

    The president of HazteOir stated, in light of the findings of the report: “In no way can a couple of persons of the same sex be judged suitable for adopting a child. Considering the findings of this vast bibliography we are obliged to protect the minor and say that same-sex couples must not be allowed to adopt children.”

    The report contests that the majority of the studies carried out which have concluded in favour of same-sex parenthood betray an egregious lack of scientific rigour. Most of the studies show a strong bias to one side.

    To prove this the report analyzes the nature of the individuals who have been responsible for the various studies carried out thus far, demonstrating that the vast majority are either homosexuals themselves, or active in the gay-rights movement. Into this category fall all six of the six most prominent psychologists of the American Psychological Association, which, unsurprisingly is one of the organizations most strongly and vocally in favour of homosexual adoption.

    In compiling and comparing the available data from these studies, as well as more objective studies, the team of first-class psychologists and sociologists which penned the HazteOir report have noted prominent and disturbing trends.

    Among children raised by same-sex couples, the report notes a significant increase in low self-esteem, stress, confusion regarding sexual identity, an increase in mental illness, drug use, promiscuity, STD’s, and homosexual behaviour, amongst others. Furthermore, the report shows that statistics have brought to light the fact that same-sex relationships betray a much higher instance of separation and break-up than heterosexual relationships, increasing the likelihood that the child will experience familial instability.

    The Spanish Association of Pediatrics firmly backs up the findings of the report, stating that a “family nucleus with two fathers or two mothers is clearly dangerous for the child”.

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  73. Ed Snack (1,941 comments) says:

    Fletch, but those films, they were like, should have been true ! Full on truthiness, and the propaganda battle is already won as most people’s perception is set by the popular film. Not unlike the film “Wall St” that so many seem to believe was a documentary.

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  74. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    I’m not surprised at that report Fletch. Some terrible things were and have been done by Church authorities, but a great deal of propaganda has also been aimed at the RC and people in religious orders that does not correspond to reality.

    And let’s not forget that the very Liberal-Left BBC has a wee bit of a problem with regards to child abuse as well.

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  75. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    Hi Penny! :)

    Paid your rates yet?

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  76. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Justify a life time of imprisonment with no right to review, release ,representation or recompense under the grounds of “we only beat them gently” when forcing them to slave 12 hour days for the church’s benefit.

    Filth.

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  77. Fletch (6,533 comments) says:

    An interesting way of looking at World War I – as a bar fight.

    http://themetapicture.com/if-wwi-was-a-bar-fight/

    From what I read elsewhere, I believe a teacher made it.

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  78. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    There was an old lady who lived in a house.
    oops
    There was an old lady who lived alone in a tent at the local park.
    Dont worry Penny Tarnish.
    There is still the offer from JohnBoy.

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  79. mikenmild (12,516 comments) says:

    For Fletch on same sex parents:
    http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/are-same-sex-couples-better-parents/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

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  80. dirty harry (533 comments) says:

    change the record penny..its getting boring ( you sexy thing you )

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  81. dime (10,231 comments) says:

    “The Greens want to build up to $200 million in cycle lanes and walkways around schools if they are in government, and funding would be redirected from “low-value” projects such as the Holiday Highway north of Auckland.”

    Excuse my language.. but what a bunch of cocksmokers.

    No vision at all.

    Just blind hatred of cars (crown limos are OK though).

    We should be doing whatever we can to improve connections between auckland and whangarei

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  82. jonnobanks (148 comments) says:

    I imagine Harriet spends half his time looking up anti gay websites and the rest of his time mastabating over gay porn. Some weird guilt behaviour, methinks.

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  83. dirty harry (533 comments) says:

    Looks like they may have found it…

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/9823470/China-finds-suspected-crash-site-of-flight-MH370

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  84. Sofia (861 comments) says:

    Pete George – Being up front and honest avoids one of the worst of political faux pas, being found to stuff up the reaction to an issue.

    So John Key is disappointed with Collins for her being “cute” in answering journalists’ questions – guess he means “cute”, like his response a while back to the effect that “No”, he hadn’t read the Police Report on Banks. “No conviction entered so no wrong done, no problem.”

    Key remains most popular Prime Minister ever.
    Collins, suddenly, has no chance of ever attaining that?

    Echoes of Phillip Field, protected by Clark until he hinted he may not always support her, so suddenly he was fucking toast.

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  85. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Sofia (734 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 11:48 am
    Key remains most popular Prime Minister ever.

    I’m sorry, but would you mind providing some empirical evidence to support this statement?

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  86. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Wanna improve the connection between ak and whangs. :wink:

    Fix the fucking intersection.s at walk-through. Warkworth Now not 2021.

    Get the cops to spend 1/10 of their time enforcing the fucking road code.
    1 Keep left . This means keep as far left on the road as possible not sit on the middle line at seventy kmh on the open road.
    2 It is an offence to obstruct traffic. This means if you are doing less than the speed limit help the cars behind pass if you fail to do this you should be targeted for a fine.

    I am sick of the fucking idiots who have twenty cars closely stacked behind them as they negotiate slow corners at 70 who then speed up to 105 kph on passing lanes. Definitely these smegsuckers need to be disciplined for their totally Inconsiderate driving.

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  87. dirty harry (533 comments) says:

    Of course Key is NZ’s most popular PM..have you been living in a bubble or something?

    Where ever he goes he is mobbed and treated like a rock star. He has the common touch.

    He will go down in history as the most popular PM ever.

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  88. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    I am sick of the fucking idiots who have twenty cars closely stacked behind them as they negotiate slow corners at 70 who then speed up to 105 kph on passing lanes. Definitely these smegsuckers need to be disciplined for their totally Inconsiderate driving.

    Amen to that – they are a nuisance and have the cheek to look ‘offended’ when one flicks them the birdie!

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  89. dime (10,231 comments) says:

    Jack5 – the thread was:

    Longknives – “Not to mention the mandatory Transgender child…All frolicking under a huge rainbow..”

    Gump (suspected tranny after this outburst) – “It’s bad enough that you post under a Nazi inspired nickname, but you just can’t yourself from bullying children on the Internet.

    You’re disgusting.”

    Dime “Longknives – you know kiwiblog is where all the tranny kids hang out, please don’t bully them.” – i was taking the piss.

    I dont know any trannys on here.. maybe gump? maybe hes married to one? who knows. dont really care.

    I think longknives was joking and referring to these kids that seem to pop up in the herald with their far left, fucked up parents “i want to be a girl” or whatever. most sane people i know think its nuts to let a 7 year old decide something like that and set them on a path to chopping off their dicks!

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  90. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Manolo, our resident black hater. ?

    Honesty and transparency according to the GOP,

    http://www.salon.com/2014/01/21/busted_former_gop_gov_bob_mcdonnell_indicted_for_corruption/

    And there is much, much more including the most corrupt US Presidents Grant, Harding, Nixon and Reagan

    http://www.theprogressiveprofessor.com/?p=22010

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  91. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ dirty harry (153 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 12:00 pm

    The empirical evidence does not support you. The percentages that voted for his party at the last two elections have been superseded by others standing in previous elections – so he has a large group of emotionally challenged people who like to part-take in overt displays of affection – and you think that is evidence to say that he is the most popular PM ever?

    I know a heap of people that hope he chokes on his next burger – so if I was as irresponsible as the previous poster, I could say he was the most hated PM ever. Keep it real aye?

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  92. dirty harry (533 comments) says:

    we shall see Judith..we shall see.

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  93. dime (10,231 comments) says:

    “Manolo, our resident black hater. ?”

    Stephieboy, our resident freak who sees racism EVERYWHERE

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  94. DJP6-25 (1,391 comments) says:

    Ooh…. look there’s Elvis! (Judith Collins)

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  95. Rowan (2,613 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9823503/Woman-who-killed-husband-jailed-for-six-years
    Inadequate sentance and incorrect verdict for Ms Scollay who stabbed her husband through the heart, how is that not clear intent to kill?

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  96. David Garrett (7,706 comments) says:

    “JUDITH”: From the safety of the shelter of your pseud please do tell us about “the beastly” Lisa Kuka, and give us some examples of her manipulation…If a pseud is good for anything it must be for this purpose..

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  97. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/jfm_comm_on_torture_210411.pdf
    Direct from the real world not christian apologist blog.

    1 Executive Summary
    1.1 Ireland’s Magdalene Laundries
    were residential, commercial and for-profit laundries
    operated by four Irish orders of nuns i where between the foundation of the Irish Free
    State in 1922 and 1996, when the last institution closed, a number of girls and
    women, estimated in the tens of thousands,were imprisoned, forced to carry out
    unpaid labour and subjected to severe psychological and physical maltreatment.
    1.2 The women and girls who suffered in the Magdalene Laundries included those who
    were perceived to be “promiscuous”, were unmarried mothers, were the daughters of
    unmarried mothers, were considered a burden on their families or the State, had been
    sexually abused, or had grown up in the care of the Church and State.
    1.3 As evidenced in Part 5.3 below, the IrishState was complicit in the incarceration of women and girls in the Magdalene Laundries and dealt commercially with laundries without ever subjecting them to official regulation or
    inspection. It is submitted in Part 5 that the Magdalene Laundries abuse meets the requirements for
    the definition of torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment under Article 1 and
    Article 16 CAT.

    Griff has spent money insuring his camry bomb is as safe as possible for the driving he does.
    He has upgraded tyres. +1″ diameter -5 profile ratio. + 20mm width, which makes his speedo 100% accurate., Suspension lowered 35mm legal max stiffer shocks .brakes slotted disks quality pads. lights +150% halogens all six front . Subtle but fun as I watch the audits freak and disappear in the mirror when they try to follow a camry wagon around a 55 bend at 110 and all their nanny lights go mad.

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  98. Lucia Maria (2,677 comments) says:

    Reid,

    I had a look at that book you recommended yesterday by finding it in Amazon and reading the reviews before having a look at the book. It’s seems my opinion of it is the minority opinion of the negative reviewers. A minority because very few people outside of the conspiracy realm will be attracted to this book after reading the first few pages.

    Skim reading the rest of the first chapter is even worse. I checked the reference that “proved” Britain’s ambassador to Russia was right in the thick of the plot to overthrow the Czar, one of the few proofs offered despite the many assertions given. It gives a quote from Lloyd George referencing a book by Léon Degrelle, an officer of the Waffen SS (a Nazi, basically) who isn’t German, but aligned himself with the Nazis. Like that’s a great source to base a whole premise on!

    Seriously, this is the type of “history” you read? I asked you the questions I did because I needed some “anchor points” as to your level of historical knowledge and how influenced by propaganda you are. The thing is, if you are going to read alternative histories without much understanding of what actually happened with all the conspiracy stuff, then you’ll be sucked in.

    To answer the first question I asked, the Soviet Union entered the war 2 weeks after the Germans invaded Poland, by “liberating” the other half. Kind of like they are “liberating” Crimea right now. No declaration of war – just subterfuge and propaganda. That’s how it’s related.

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  99. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “……I think longknives was joking and referring to these kids that seem to pop up in the herald with their far left, fucked up parents “i want to be a girl” or whatever. most sane people i know think its nuts to let a 7 year old decide something like that and set them on a path to chopping off their dicks!….’

    “…..set them on a path to chopping off their dicks….”

    You nailed that Dime. It’s child abuse – and all of the government supports it! Fucken sad really.

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  100. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Judith is bound by professional ethics.

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  101. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “……..jonnobanks (136 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 11:37 am
    I imagine Harriet spends half his time looking up anti gay websites and the rest of his time mastabating over gay porn. Some weird guilt behaviour, methinks……”

    Nope.

    Just do what real men do – stand up for women and children. Gay men can manipulate vunerable people too y’know. Infact, methinks…….

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  102. Fletch (6,533 comments) says:

    griff, I just posted a link about a 1000 page Govt commissioned report (The McAleese Report) telling you that was bullshit .

    Is that not “secular” enough for you?

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  103. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Lucia Marai, your recommended book is put under the blow torch by this reviewer and found seriously flawed in trying to pin and blame Hitler’s rise to power on a conspiracy of Anglo American elites,

    http://www.amazon.com/Conjuring-Hitler-Guido-Giacomo-Preparata/product-reviews/074532181X/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

    Instead of pseudo history try this from Cambridge Professor of Modern History Prof Richard J Evans,

    http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Third-Reich-Richard-Evans/dp/0143034693

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  104. twofish (109 comments) says:

    TPP? No, TTIP. But it’s the same fucking thing?

    Right now, Europe and the USA are negotiating a huge corporate power grab affecting literally millions of European and American citizens.

    The Transatlantic Trade & Investment Partnership (or TTIP) is called a “trade treaty”. But if agreed, the TTIP would actually hand corporations the power to overturn democratically decided laws, on everything from environmental protections to food safety, through a system of secret courts that only corporations would have access to.

    European leaders are already nervous about how the public might react, and are not sure what to do. Under pressure, the EU is about to launch a big public consultation about the TTIP – but there’s a real danger that the loudest voices will be the giant corporations that stand to benefit. We don’t have long to prove that it’s people power that counts, not corporate power.
    http://action.sumofus.org/a/stop-ttip/?sub=fb

    Can the TPP ratification arrive in time to be at least one REAL election issue?

    Or are we stuck with Jones smacking Norman who complains to Cunliffe who will berate Jones who will hit Norman again until the music stops and Cunliffe is last man standing? – oh, dear …

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  105. Manolo (14,198 comments) says:

    The tyrant Putin tightens the screws: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/c87047d0-aa06-11e3-8497-00144feab7de.html#axzz2vnSyxdc5

    The longtime editor of Russia’s leading internet news site, Lenta.ru, has been fired by the company’s tycoon owner and replaced with a Kremlin-friendly successor, the latest episode in a media crackdown by Vladimir Putin’s government.

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  106. OneTrack (3,396 comments) says:

    “I know a heap of people that hope he chokes on his next burger ”

    David Cunliffe, Metiria Turei, Winston Peters, Hone Harawira, Russel Norman, Grant Robertson, David Shearer, Phil Goff, Helen Clark,…

    Yeah, he is keeping them away from the levers of power. Must Get Key. Must Get Key. Must Get Key…………

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  107. OneTrack (3,396 comments) says:

    “Inadequate sentance and incorrect verdict for Ms Scollay who stabbed her husband through the heart, how is that not clear intent to kill?”

    She is a woman. And she was “upset”.

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  108. dime (10,231 comments) says:

    So, some chick stabs a bloke through the heart, gets 6 years?

    Can anyone think of a man who got off that light for killing his wife? (when found guilty)

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  109. David Garrett (7,706 comments) says:

    griff: The real person behind ‘Judith’ may well be bound by professional ethics…”Judith” – the commenter on blogs is bound by nothing other than the rules our host imposes on us… and “Judith” has always made it clear that: 1) that is not her name; and 2) guesses as to her identity are incorrect..

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  110. publicwatchdog (3,163 comments) says:

    Seen this Kiwibloggers?

    Just gone up on the Parliamentary website:

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/presented/petitions/50DBHOH_PET3196_1/petition-of-penelope-mary-bright-and-13-others-that-the

    “That the House conduct an urgent inquiry into:

    Why New Zealand Auditor-General Lyn Provost did not disclose that she was a shareholder in Sky City Entertainment Group at the time she declined to conduct an urgent investigation into the failure of the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand (OFCANZ) to carry out ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the New Zealand International Convention Centre (Bill) 2013.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

    This petition (2011/ 101 ) was presented by NZ First MP Dennis O’Rouke on 12 March 2014, and has been referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.

    Not a particularly good look for arguably one of the most important statutory ‘third party’ Public Watchdogs, in New Zealand, given that we’re ‘perceived’ to be the ‘least corrupt country in the world’?

    Pity about the reality, which is, in my considered opinion, that Auditor-General Lyn Provost is not ‘fit for duty’, is CORRUPT and should be sacked?

    (I have told her this directly to her face.)

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption /anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz

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  111. David Garrett (7,706 comments) says:

    You told her “directly to her face” Penny? By God I’m sure that caused a shiver to run up her spine…..woooooh….

    Please don’t go all suicidal, but the petitions of XXX and HUNDREDS of others – not just 13 – get presented to the House every day…and sent off to Select Committee from whence – on a day far in the future – they are reported back as having no substance and requiring NFA…

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  112. Paulus (2,716 comments) says:

    The woman who stabbed her husband gets six years, but with no parole timing, which means she can be paroled in two years (1/3rd sentence).

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  113. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Did you fetch? I read an opinion piece from the telegraph from your link.
    The irish government and the church has admitted slavery.
    Your excuse seems to be “its ok we only beat the slaves gently”.
    If you or any other identifiable member of the god deluded claim any moral authority you need to be reminded that the Christian church is as morally bankrupt as any other human organisation.

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  114. David Garrett (7,706 comments) says:

    Paulus: Quite so…she almost certainly won’t get it first time – although she might – but she almost certainly WILL get it on her second appearance before the Board…Three years for killing a bloke…

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  115. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria, thank you for that link to Belgian Nazi Collaborator Leon Degrelle and Waffen SS volunteer on the Eastern Front . It seems his main claim to fame post war ,as well as living extremely well,in Franco’s Spain , his only undying regret was that Hitler didn’t win the war.
    Am sorry but I appear to go the wrong end of the stick re your last post.My last and this post should be addressed to Reid.
    My apologies.!

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  116. cha (4,159 comments) says:

    Can anyone think of a man who got off that light for killing his wife?

    In the late seventies Wellington GP Dave Minette got four years for shooting his wife.

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  117. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Well garret you just creat a pseudo and spill the beans.
    After all its only your job and probably your freedom then your arse on the line
    that’s if you tell the really juicy bits.

    I know interesting information about a notorious kid killing family as well as that of one of the biggest nutters put inside over the last ten years. I also know lovely little titbits about rich fucked up family’s. These things get offloaded by my sig other when she unwinds, They get erased as soon as the talk is finished not trotted out to justify my prejudices on kb. You have to respect professional ethics or you are morally corrupt.

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  118. dime (10,231 comments) says:

    cha – 2 things.

    1 – thanks
    2 – just how old are you? lol

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  119. VideoJo (3 comments) says:

    I am new here…in fact this is my first ever…post is it?

    What “griffith” said above doesnt make any sense. If the garret he refers to is David Garrett then that guy has already spilled a fair bit…hasnt he?

    I would like to use my real name, but the boss might take a dim view of me talking on here during work hours!

    Can someone please tell me how I change my password to something I can remember?

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  120. Lucia Maria (2,677 comments) says:

    StephieBoy,

    No problem and you’re welcome.

    Books like that Conjuring Hitler book are trash. So much apparent joining of the dots and background info into huge conspiracies that are painful to debunk. I might just skim it through to see what it says about Poland – that is also one of litmus tests for accuracy, as well as checking out the references.

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  121. Fletch (6,533 comments) says:

    Capt Kirk gets busted in NZ on DUI –

    WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) — Hollywood actor Chris Pine, known for playing Captain Kirk in the “Star Trek” movies, has been charged with drunken driving in New Zealand.
    The 33-year-old American is due to make his first court appearance in the case on Monday, court officials said Wednesday.

    New Zealand Police said in a statement that a 33-year-old American was charged March 1 with driving with a blood-alcohol level over the legal limit, which in New Zealand is .08 percent. Police did not name the man, but said he was stopped during a routine early-morning check near the South Island town of Methven.

    Pine’s agent and publicist could not be reached immediately Wednesday for comment.

    Pine has been in New Zealand filming the movie “Z for Zachariah,” which is due for release next year. Much of the filming has taken place on the South Island’s picturesque Banks Peninsula.

    Casey Crawford, manager of the Blue Pub, a Methven bar, told Christchurch newspaper The Press that Pine was attending a celebration at the bar on the night of Feb. 28 to mark the end of filming and was accompanied by his Icelandic girlfriend, Iris Bjork Johannesdottir.

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  122. cha (4,159 comments) says:

    I’m a child of the fifties with a few years to go before I get to collect my first handout.

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  123. publicwatchdog (3,163 comments) says:

    Actually David Garrett, sorry to pop your ‘hot air balloon’ but I’ve actually had quite a lot of success with Parliamentary petitions.

    One helped to stop the rort of Metrowater ‘charitable payments’.

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/google-search/?q=Petitions+Penelope+Mary+Bright

    You are not opposed to corrupt ‘conflicts of interest’ David?

    Why would I not be surprised at that?

    (Meant of course in a caring way :)

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

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  124. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Old hippie.

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  125. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria, this book Bloodlands : Europe Between Hitler and Stalin by Timothy Snyder gives a good account of Stalin’s perfidy during WW 2 including the Katyn massacre.

    http://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Europe-Between-Hitler-Stalin/dp/0465031471.

    Vassily Grossman’s “Life and Fate” does similar in fiction form. A book the Soviet’s thought never should be published for 200 years and only did so in 1988.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Fate-Vasily-Grossman/dp/0099506165/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394672648&sr=1-1

    I still believe Putin’s Russia still can’t come to terms with its past.

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  126. cha (4,159 comments) says:

    Nah griff, I liked surfing, cars and motor cycles so I was too busy working to live the hippie life.

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  127. Reid (16,759 comments) says:

    To answer the first question I asked, the Soviet Union entered the war 2 weeks after the Germans invaded Poland, by “liberating” the other half. Kind of like they are “liberating” Crimea right now. No declaration of war – just subterfuge and propaganda. That’s how it’s related.

    Lucia one difference is Crimea wants to be with Russia whereas Poland was just the meat in the sandwich. I think also you’ll find Russia under Stalin is not the same as Russia under Putin so I’m not sure your relationship makes any sense.

    The thing is, if you are going to read alternative histories without much understanding of what actually happened with all the conspiracy stuff, then you’ll be sucked in.

    I’d put my knowledge of WWII up against yours any day Lucia, and also observe that if you chose merely to skim merely selected parts of something then how can you properly assess what’s in it? Or do you think you already know?

    your recommended book is put under the blow torch by this reviewer and found seriously flawed in trying to pin and blame Hitler’s rise to power on a conspiracy of Anglo American elites

    stephie you do realise don’t you that you’re doing the equivalent of finding out the truth about JFK by reading the CIA’s version of it.

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  128. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Surfer
    :lol:
    The ones I knew didn’t manage to work much. Some thing about swell conditions forced them to go awol to often.

    Last of the boomers… Born just before the Kennedy thingy. V8s. Women. Bikes and drrrrrugs. Levies. Cowboy boots. Black t shirt and a trumpy belt cult. :lol: Decided to shift down a few gears for sanitys sake. Since the late twenty’s I have prefered to pickle my self in salt. Life chages its part of the fun.

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  129. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    Black, white, it’s all a load of shite. Everyone has mixed blood.

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  130. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Reid , I reach my own conclusions through my independent and reasoned thought processes ,not the CIA .
    And not the seriously deluded and fanciful and thinking of Conspiracy theory.
    Also Its my view that Putin’s Russia still has not come to terms with it’s past including the Soviet’s perfidy in WW2 like the Katyn massacre.

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  131. Lucia Maria (2,677 comments) says:

    StephieBoy,

    Amazing recommendations. I already know quite a bit about what happened in Poland, but tying it all together with other countries (and getting all the resent research) will be very helpful, if depressing reading. I’ve got books that I haven’t finished because they are just so horrendous (bringing to mind Rising ’44: The Battle for Warsaw. It would get me sad or angry or both and I had to stop reading it to stay sane).

    I’ll have to get the hardback of that Bloodlands book, while as Life and Fate will just be Kindle.

    Thank you!

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  132. Rowan (2,613 comments) says:

    Dime/Paulus

    If it was a man who had killed his wife that way it would have been murder with a minimum of 10 years, however because the jury brought her sob story it was ‘manslaughter’ and as such she can be out in 3 years or so. 3 years for killing your spouse! what a joke!!

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  133. Reid (16,759 comments) says:

    Something that may be news to stephie and Lucia…

    http://henrymakow.com/2014/03/do-americans-face-a-red-terror.html

    And let’s not forget the US figures who financed the Nazis – e.g. Prescott Bush and people like Ford who gave the patent for producing synthetic oil to IG Farben, for free. Never prosecuted. Ask yourself why.

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  134. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    Its my view that Putin’s Russia still has not come to terms with it’s past including the Soviet’s perfidy in WW2 like the Katyn massacre.

    There were lots of masscres during WW2 Stephieboy – some at the hands of the Brits, some at the hands of the French, some were even perpetrated by Americans.

    Wars are bad things and bad things happen when they come.

    Ukraine as we speak is descending into chaos and bloodshed – the Crimean element is the only part being reported.

    Also Tanks are moving West, large numbers of them – the goal being to restore order to cities like Kharkov and Donetsk,I assume because the American installed Junta has no real army, just militia formed from the neo Nazi thugs that bought the legitimate Government down

    Who knows how this is going to end.

    There is no way Nato can install “peacekeepers into Eastern Ukraine and that would be an action entirely unacceptable both locally and in Russia if they tried.

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  135. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria,

    I read an earlier book about the 1944 Warsaw Uprising.Another good example of Stalin’s duplicity by stopping the Red Army at the Vistula and allowing Polish Patriots to i bleed themselves to death.
    Fortunately the book by Norman Davis will be most likely readily available in Poland today. Vassily Grossman and Timothy Snyder as well.

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  136. Lucia Maria (2,677 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Lucia one difference is Crimea wants to be with Russia…

    How do you know? Independent journalism in operation there? Nope. Journalists have gone missing.

    Television stations under control of the Russians. So, the Crimeans want whatever Russia wants them to want. And who is there to make sure that’s really what they want? Only the Russians. If this was 1939 in Poland, the Russians would be doing exactly what they are doing right now in Crimea. Only, change the word “Russian speakers” for “workers”.

    I think also you’ll find Russia under Stalin is not the same as Russia under Putin so I’m not sure your relationship makes any sense.

    Yet they are operating out of the same play book. Very soon after the “liberation” of Poland in 1939, there were “elections” as well. From An Army in Exile (page 17):

    On October 22, 1939 the Russians held “elections”. They were an illegal farce since they were carried out in territory occupied by force and held in subjection by the bayonet.

    Same as Crimea. The referendum will be a farce as well, given that the Russians are holding the place.

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  137. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Reid, this from your link tells us a great deal about the “reputability ” and authenticity ” of your delectable Henry Makov ,

    http://henrymakow.com/ten_signs_we_are_satanically_p.html

    I wonder where he leveraged that phd from.?

    Further comedy from Makov,

    http://henrymakow.com/2014/03/Media-Mask-Masonic-Control%20.html

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  138. wat dabney (3,850 comments) says:

    I’d put my knowledge of WWII up against yours any day Lucia

    Read this thread for an example of Reid’s great knowledge of the subject. Completely clueless and totally muddled in his facts, he is nevertheless sure (as ever) that there was a conspiracy.

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/02/general_debate_10_february_2013.html

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  139. wikiriwhis business (4,226 comments) says:

    The idea of crooks taking over banksspecifically to commit financial fraud seems outlandish. One of the insiders from the Savingsand Loan scandal explains how they did it. Video: http://www.realecontv.com/page/26120.html

    Bill Black jailed 1,000 bankers in the 80’s. since George Bush funds for pursuing criminal bankers have dried up

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  140. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    :lol: Wat Wat and conspirowhackys.
    Hows the evil scientists and the massive global hoax going Wingnut?

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  141. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    wat dabney, I picked this out ,from your link, posted by Reid,

    LMAO !

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  142. All_on_Red (1,755 comments) says:

    Good news Griff, no warming now for 20 years. And I see CO2 is still below 400ppm. ( source Mauna Loa)
    Oh gosh, could it be that CO2 follows temperature and not the other way around!

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  143. wikiriwhis business (4,226 comments) says:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyrXQYuMUME
    Israel hit by 60 rockets
    Plus explosion in Manhattan kills

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  144. wikiriwhis business (4,226 comments) says:

    “There were lots of masscres during WW2 Stephieboy – some at the hands of the Brits, some at the hands of the French, some were even perpetrated by Americans.”

    That’s because all men are liars and sinners

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  145. All_on_Red (1,755 comments) says:

    Lucia
    The phrase “independent journalism” is an oxymoron. Crimea has always been Russian and will be again soon.
    So how is that illegal coup which deposed the Ukrainian President going? Running out of gas I hear. Pun intended.

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  146. Lucia Maria (2,677 comments) says:

    All on Red,

    Crimea has always been Russian…

    Always, huh? Always is a very long time.

    You’ve not heard of the Crimean Tartars then. Or the gifting of Crimea to Ukraine. How do both those fit with “always been Russian”?

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  147. RichardX (330 comments) says:

    wat dabney (3,357 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 4:50 pm
    Read this thread for an example of Reid’s great knowledge of the subject. Completely clueless and totally muddled in his facts, he is nevertheless sure (as ever) that there was a conspiracy.

    I’m still waiting to hear more about the “pending nuclear detonation in Chicago” he referred to a few days back. A potentially falsifiable statement rather than history viewed through the mind set of conspiracy but sadly nothing more has been forthcoming

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  148. wikiriwhis business (4,226 comments) says:

    NEWS BREAK: “Massive Explosion” 2 Buildings Destroyed 2 dead. Many missing. Manhattan NY

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  149. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis business,

    70 Rockests hit Israel and gas main explosion Manhattan NY.?

    Nice job connecting the dots.!

    Hilarious.!

    The news of gas main explosion relatively ancient .!

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  150. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Love that all in red .

    No warming for twenty years.

    surface warming trend is positive for all the temperature anomaly charts.

    https://www.skepticalscience.com/trend.php

    Go hard wing nut and back your bullshit.

    Wingnut will trot off to some blog or other to prove nassa. Penn state. uk met .royal society .national Academy et al wrong.

    cause all the evil scientist are in a conspirowhacky.

    In his tiny distorted mind maybe.

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  151. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    There were lots of masscres during WW2 Stephieboy

    Yes, even a home grown one: The Featherston Prisoner of War Camp

    The camp’s most infamous event was on 25 February 1943 during a sit-in of 240 prisoners, who refused to work. The exact sequence of events is not known, but Lieutenant Adachi was shot and wounded by the camp adjutant. This led to the prisoners either charging or appearing to charge the guards, who opened fire with rifles and sub-machine guns. Thirty seconds later 31 prisoners were dead, with another 17 dying later of their injuries, and 74 wounded. On the New Zealand side, a ricochet from a burst of the gunfire killed Private Walter Pelvin

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  152. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Reid , the Crimea has not always been Russian,

    “Crimean Khanate

    The Crimean Khanate was a Tatar state founded by Hacı I Giray, a descendant of Genghis Khan, from 1441 to 1783. In 1478 the Khanate became a tributary of the Ottoman Empire, during the long wars of Russian expansion it became a formally independent state by the terms of the 1774 Russo-Ottoman Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca, and was annexed by the Russian Empire in 1783, and called the Taurida Governorate.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

    Naturally there is a long history prior to 1441.AD too.!

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  153. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Scott Chris,

    The alleged “massacre ” pales into insignificance compared to massacres like this,

    http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/

    here as well,

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2270587/Germany-launches-fresh-investigation-Nazi-massacre-saw-642-French-villagers-slaughtered-day.html

    Pretty shameless effort on your part IMO

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  154. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    http://thetruthwins.com/archives/newly-found-megalithic-ruins-in-russia-contain-the-largest-blocks-of-stone-ever-discovered

    An incredible discovery that was recently made in Russia threatens to shatter conventional theories about the history of the planet. On Mount Shoria in southern Siberia, researchers have found an absolutely massive wall of granite stones. Some of these gigantic granite stones are estimated to weigh more than 3,000 tons, and as you will see below, many of them were cut “with flat surfaces, right angles, and sharp corners”. Nothing of this magnitude has ever been discovered before. The largest stone found at the megalithic ruins at Baalbek, Lebanon is less than 1,500 tons.

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  155. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    UT, a lot more information and research needs to be done before we can jump to conclusions as true believers like you appear willing to do to It requires some form of independent verification from e.g the Russian Academy of Sciences.

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  156. nasska (12,122 comments) says:

    UT

    Looks like a pile of rock to me. Weather or earthquakes are probably responsible.

    Ref: http://s2.djyimg.com/n3/eet-content/uploads/2014/03/mount-shoria-monolith.jpg

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  157. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    @stephieboy
    Like the conclusion that the magic bullet theory has been falsified by the lack of deformation of the bullet, you mean?

    @nasska
    How many piles of rock do you know of that have flat surfaces and right angle corners like the ones at Mount Shoria?

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  158. wikiriwhis business (4,226 comments) says:

    did you know the wtc towers were full of asbestos and the city wanted it removed at a cost of 8 billion. wtc 7 was owned by the one who benifited financially from insurance.

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  159. Nostradamus (2,440 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis business:

    wtc 7 was owned by the one who benifited financially from insurance.

    Yes, so rather than carry out the asbestos removal work, the owner simply went into the market and hired (1) a plane and (2) a group of pilots with suicide tendencies. FFS.

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  160. mikenmild (12,516 comments) says:

    Ugly/wikiriwhis
    Are you two related?

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  161. nasska (12,122 comments) says:

    UT

    Not a lot but then I’m not a geologist. You must admit that the photo I referenced puts things into perspective….some of the surfaces are flat but there are plenty more that aren’t.

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  162. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    U T, the real fools re magic bullet are , of course, the Conspiracists like you , not the Warren Commission ,

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm

    nasska, naturally UT can’t wait for independent scientific analysis or verification.
    He’s a conspiricist naturally.

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  163. Nostradamus (2,440 comments) says:

    nasska:

    I’m waiting for UglyTruth to explain whether these granite stones were used as part of an elaborate ruse to make all of us think that the moon landing was real!

    UglyTruth (2,280 comments) says:
    December 4th, 2013 at 6:03 pm

    they didn’t have the technology to fake going to the moon.

    Except that they did. There are hints of Stanley Kubrick’s cinema tricks in some of the footage.

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  164. wikiriwhis business (4,226 comments) says:

    Most of the people who criticise Penny Bright on here do nothing but be self absorbed

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  165. nasska (12,122 comments) says:

    Nostradamus

    Compassion please! If the aliens hadn’t forgotten to remove his anal probe things could have turned out differently. :)

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  166. Nostradamus (2,440 comments) says:

    Activist faces forced house sale

    An enemy of Auckland Mayor Len Brown may lose her home after refusing to pay her rates. Auckland Council wrote to activist Penny Bright this month to demand $29,000 to cover overdue rates, penalties and legal costs. The council threatened to sell Bright’s home if she did not pay the bill within 10 days.

    Bright, an anti-corruption campaigner, has refused to pay rates since 2008 in protest against the lack of transparency in how the money is spent. She has accused Auckland Council of targeting her because of her outspoken views. “They’re desperately trying to stomp on my head.”

    The Auckland Council posted the letter to Bright a day after she spoke of her rates protest on talkback radio.

    Bright failed to gain sympathy when she posted her plight onto social media page Facebook. One man commented there were other ways to protest, rather than making other ratepayers pick up her bill.

    The Auckland Council spokesman said rates were critical to the financial stability of local government. “It is unfair for the regularly paying ratepayers to subsidise non-paying ratepayers.” The council would sell a home only as a last resort, he said. “More often than not, rating sales are averted because the ratepayer complies with paying the rates.”

    Auckland Council was unable to provide details by deadline on the number of houses sold due to missed rates. However, there had been few instances of a property needing to be sold to cover overdue rates, the spokesman said.

    Councils could also seek the overdue payments through a homeowner’s mortgage payments. This was not possible in Bright’s case because she did not have a mortgage.

    Bright said she planned to stay strong on her protest, despite the risk of losing her home. “If they’re not going to say where exactly my money is going I’m not going to pay my rates”.

    Bright unsuccessfully contested the mayoralty against Brown at last year’s election.

    She also laid a complaint at Auckland Central police station in February alleging Brown concealed “freebies” from hotels across the city.

    Goodness! Now, if you were a prospective landlord, would you consider renting out your investment property to Penny?

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  167. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Penny goes bye bye.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/VIDEO-Hysterical-scenes-during-arrest-of-Occupy-protestor-Penny-Bright/tabid/423/articleID/240742/Default.aspx

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  168. Nostradamus (2,440 comments) says:

    Thanks Griff.

    That video is pure comedy gold.

    “What am I being arrested for?”
    “I sat in a tent!”
    “What am I being charged with?”
    “I never breached the peace. They did, not me!”.

    LMAO

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  169. nasska (12,122 comments) says:

    Fortunately for Waterwoman, it being the end of season, there are some real accommodation bargains to be had. :)

    Ref: http://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/camping-outdoors/tents/1-2-person-tents/auction-705973629.htm

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  170. Nostradamus (2,440 comments) says:

    Nasska:

    I’m sure Penny appreciates your public service announcement – most worthwhile. She’d better get in quick, though, as the $195 buy now option expires on Saturday.

    Of course, having a tent is only part of the story, as she’ll need somewhere to set up. I don’t believe Aotea Square is available – but, of course, if Penny pays her rates who knows what Len Brown will agree to! He might be persuaded – might – to offer her the Ngati Whatua room, although even that might not be to Penny’s liking since, as I understand it, the room wouldn’t come with an en suite… but, for once, she wouldn’t be evicted from Council premises!

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  171. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    If ewe me and a few Udders :sad: fund the trip out to JBs Sharing shed.
    I am sure a bottle of http://healthycare.com.au/product/lanolin-cream-sheep-placenta/ will be shared in the most neighborly way.

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  172. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    U T, the real fools re magic bullet are , of course, the Conspiracists like you , not the Warren Commission ,

    So you think that I’m a fool for pointing out that the lack of deformation of the bullet is not consistent with the theory that it passed through Connally’s rib and his wrist?

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  173. Nostradamus (2,440 comments) says:

    UglyTruth:

    You could have just stopped at “So you think that I’m a fool”. I think quite a few Kiwiblog commenters would be with you up to that point!

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  174. nasska (12,122 comments) says:

    I’m not expecting Penny to have any problems with siting the tent Nostradamus. So long as Len Brown has a front lawn all should be well :)

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  175. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    @Nostradamus

    How fortunate for them that they can just downtick me and avoid arguing the point.

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  176. nasska (12,122 comments) says:

    Two couples had arranged to spend a long weekend at a country hotel. On the drive to the hotel they shared a car and during the two hour journey they agreed that, to spice up the weekend, they would try a little partner swapping.
    Having checked into the hotel each went on to the bedroom with their new partner. The sex started immediately. It was hot and heavy. After half an hour one of the men turned to his new partner and said.
    “That was terrific. We should have done this years ago. I wonder how the girls are getting on”?

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  177. All_on_Red (1,755 comments) says:

    Griff
    You believe SKS? And are fooled by red crayon colouring in? How embarrassing.try the satellite data, by NASA don’t cha know

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  178. Rowan (2,613 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9825251/Black-Widow-appeals-murder-count
    Hopefully the COA throw this appeal down the dunny or increase her sentance. What a waste of taxpayer money. Throw away the key!

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  179. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Surface data can you read wingnut?
    http://images.remss.com/msu/msu_time_series.html
    Even rss shows a rise. RSS ain’t nasa . it also ain’t surface data and ain’t the most reliable system for estimating global temperatures In fact it ain’t relevent to your statement “no warming with respect to increasing co2″..
    If you can not prove no warming trend using the skeptical science trend calculator try wood for trees http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot

    Keep Talking vacant shit like a conspiracy theory driven screen licker All in red

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  180. Tauhei Notts (1,689 comments) says:

    Rowan,
    Everybody must have the right to appeal a sentence in the High Court.
    What I object to is that mug taxpayers, like you and me, must pay for this appeal. That is outrageous.
    If the friends of the Black Widow were paying, I would say good on them. Provided that the Crown got a surety for costs.

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  181. Reid (16,759 comments) says:

    I’m still waiting to hear more about the “pending nuclear detonation in Chicago” he referred to a few days back.

    Are you Richard. Well what would you like me to tell you about it, given whatever I say hasn’t been on Fox News, CBS, or whatever other crap you get your geopolitics from?

    You’ll just have to wait and see, won’t you.

    Yes, so rather than carry out the asbestos removal work, the owner simply went into the market and hired (1) a plane and (2) a group of pilots with suicide tendencies. FFS.

    No he didn’t say or even imply that Larry did it Nostradamus, it’s interesting you hallucinated he did though. It shows cognitive dissonance, you see. Happens all the time. Talk about 911 for example and the poor sufferers hallucinate you were talking about the moon landings. Pavlovian reaction is how it works, you should research mind control, if you want to avoid that fallacious thinking.

    I picked this out ,from your link, posted by Reid

    Did you have a look at it stephie, or do you already know what it says?

    Reid , the Crimea has not always been Russian

    I never said it was stephie, was that a hallucination caused by your cognitive dissonance? You poor thing.

    Read this thread for an example of Reid’s great knowledge of the subject. Completely clueless and totally muddled in his facts,

    Yes that’s right wat, I was wrong they weren’t going for Ploesti they were going for Baku. Sorry. But the point I was making as you should know was that Hitler diverted Army Group South to Baku instead of driving for Moscow, an action which lost them Moscow at a time when there was only a rifle division between them and it, which lost them the war, since in Russia, in those days, if you took Moscow you held Russia. An action just like Hitler stopping the panzers in France in 1940, which allowed the second front eventually to open up since he could have captured the entire UK military leadership. Two critical errors. Once is an accident, twice is careless. Except Hitler wasn’t careless, so why did he do it, twice? That’s the question I was raising back in Feb, but as usual for you, it passed quite by your simple little mind, didn’t it.

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  182. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Reid appears to be at it again. This time pushing the WTC making a loss – under tenanted canard and the alleged asbestos abatement costs.This is suggested was motive enough for the Port authority and Washington to orchestrate the 9/11 attacks.
    Utter nonsense. The asbestos abatement costs only represented a small fraction of the leasehold not to speak of the enormous clean up costs after the attacks.

    from my link below,

    “We see no evidence to suggest that the WTC “had been losing money for years”, was “a disaster”, or “under-tenanted”, as the original story claims. In fact it seems the reality was just the opposite: it was doing very well. There’s no reason to believe the asbestos problems were unmanageable, or that the WTC was a “legal and financial timebomb”, either. So the next time someone tells you that the towers had to be demolished because they were a white elephant, don’t let it go: ask them for supporting references, and see if their claims really stand up to scrutiny.”

    http://www.911myths.com/html/losing_money_at_the_wtc_.html

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  183. Ed Snack (1,941 comments) says:

    MH 370 update for anyone interested. In a truly bizarre twist to this story, an experienced aviation journalist at the WSJ has written that Rolls Royce collected a further 4 hours ACARS data from MH 370’s engines. That means, if true, folks, that the aircraft was flying for those additional hours AFTER contact was lost. Whether the WSJ would publish with authenticating this information I don’t know but one would think surely not. Perhaps this is a deliberate intel leak, or just craziness.

    This blows the whole scenario that we’ve been working to for the last 6 days right out of the water. Note too that RR did originally state that they received just two ACARS messages, one shortly after take off and one after 30-40 minutes or so at cruise. Both of those are expected, normal way point transmissions. So if there were another 8 or so transmissions at 30 minute intervals, then there’s been no accident disabling all comms as ACARS goes out by satellite uplink or VHF if no satellite. These transmissions would have details of engine settings and activity so they can easily tell if thee was a pilot in control, and also tell if the fuel ran out or if the aircraft was landed.

    So the critical point, is this real information ? This whole saga is getting really weird. And when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. So what’s going on, who knows, but there’s got to be more to come. If held, tonight’s press conference could be a doozy.

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  184. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, your question re lack of bullet deformation is explained here,

    A Discovery Channel television special, Unsolved History: JFK — Beyond the Magic Bullet, attempted to replicate as well as possible the conditions of that day. The participants set up blocks of ballistics gel with a substance similar to human bone inside. These studies showed that it was possible to produce largely undeformed bullets, if they were slowed by a passage through a tissue-like substance before striking bone.
    “Next, two mannequin figures made of ballistic anatomical substances (animal skin, gelatin, and interior bone-like cast) were set up in the exact relative position of JFK and Connally. A marksman fired the same rifle model found in the Book Depository from a distance equal to that of the sixth floor of the Book Depository building, using a round from the same batch of Western Cartridge Company 6.5×52 mm ammunition purchased with the surplus Carcano weapon in early 1963. The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day, the only difference being that the bullet did not quite have enough energy to penetrate the “thigh” substance in front of the Connally figure, because it struck an extra bone in the “rib” model (i.e., it fractured 2 ribs in the model vs. one rib in Connally). It was also slightly more deformed than CE 399, possibly for the same reason. However, this bullet came close to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with the bullet having little deformation.”

    Sourced from,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-bullet_theory

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  185. Nostradamus (2,440 comments) says:

    Reid:

    No he didn’t say or even imply that Larry did it Nostradamus, it’s interesting you hallucinated he did though. It shows cognitive dissonance, you see. Happens all the time. Talk about 911 for example and the poor sufferers hallucinate you were talking about the moon landings. Pavlovian reaction is how it works, you should research mind control, if you want to avoid that fallacious thinking.

    Well, Reid, here’s what he wrote:

    wikiriwhis business (3,052 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 6:00 pm

    did you know the wtc towers were full of asbestos and the city wanted it removed at a cost of 8 billion. wtc 7 was owned by the one who benifited financially from insurance.

    So, on my interpretation, there are four propositions:

    1. The WTC Towers were full of asbestos.
    2. The city wanted it removed.
    3. The removal cost was $8 billion.
    4. The owner of WTC7 stood to benefit financially from insurance.

    Now my question, Reid, is why mention all of these facts? What point do you think wikiriwhis business was trying to make?

    Yes, of course, he didn’t say or imply that there was a causative relationship between the insurance benefits and the dastardly deed. But Reid, if you’re going to try that debating tactic on me, I’m duty-bound to respond in kind by pointing out that I didn’t say or imply that there was a causative relationship either! There was actually a point to my sarcasm, which you seem to have overlooked in your desire to lecture me on cognitive dissonance and Pavlovian reactions.

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  186. Reid (16,759 comments) says:

    This is suggested was motive enough for the Port authority and Washington to orchestrate the 9/11 attacks.

    No-one has suggested this stephie. Apart from you in your galloping mentalism. Calm down and read what I and UT actually said as opposed to what you and one other hallucinate. It’s merely another facet in what was a complex and significant operation.

    Larry didn’t have the means to do it in any case, but this doesn’t mean he wasn’t a willing participant.

    Let me give you an example.

    You will know of course there are various motives for JFK. I hardly need enumerate them for you I imagine you’re so familiar with them but for the sake of completeness here they are.

    JFK issued executive order 11110 which destroyed the ability of the bankers to rort humanity by allowing the US govt as opposed to the Federal Reserve to print its money

    JFK also threatened to expose and halt Dimona and had a very tense conversation with Ben-Gurion a few days prior to Dallas.

    JFK threatened to scatter the CIA to the four winds since he’d had a gutsful of its regime-change OSS-derived operations which almost lead him into war during the Missile Crisis and from the disastrous Bay of Pigs for which he took the public blame but which was a CIA operation not authorised by him.

    JFK said he was going to draw down and close the “police action” then getting started in Vietnam and one of Johnson’s first announcements following his taking office was an a reassessment of the draw-down and subsequently of course billions went to the US defence industry.

    So out of those possibilities which of those do you think is most likely and there are others as well?

    All UT was saying was that the towers asbestos was not insignificant in that it would have cost a billion or so to clear them but I’m fairly sure he wasn’t saying that was a motive.

    And if you don’t know that motives of the significance of those I just listed were involved in 911 then you understand nothing about geopolitics because they’ve all come about through subsequent events.

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  187. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Brother just had a quote to remove asbestos cladding and roof of a triple garage and the ceilings of two rooms.
    $2.500 removed under ohs guidelines bagged and disposed of . Not a lot considering the work and box ticking involved.

    Asbestos in the workings of a building is just contain/remove. It is not usually an immediate threat providing it remains undisturbed. That sort of money sounds a tad excessive

    Cost of replacement building.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_World_Trade_Center
    A February 2007 estimate put the initial construction cost of One World Trade Center at about US$3 billion, or $1,150 per square foot ($12,380 per square meter).[50] However, by April 2012 the tower’s total estimated cost had risen to $3.9 billion,

    Twice that to scrape the structure respray with non toxic insulation then refit ?

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  188. cha (4,159 comments) says:

    Some scary shit – an hypoxic Lear jet pilot.

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  189. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Reid , your claim that the Federal Reserve had a role in JFK’s murder by usurping its power, Executive order 11,110 is clearly debunked here ,

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/weberman/jfk.htm

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  190. cha (4,159 comments) says:

    Whether the WSJ would publish with authenticating this information I don’t know but one would think surely not. Perhaps this is a deliberate intel leak, or just craziness.

    The author:

    Burt Rutan

    On February 24, 2010, Andy Pasztor wrote an article titled “Space Pioneer Burt Rutan Blasts New NASA Plan,” claiming that Burt Rutan had written a letter to Congress sharply criticizing President Obama’s plans to turn over portions of its human spaceflight program to commercial providers.[1] A couple days later Burt Rutan released a statement saying that “the WSJ chose to cherry-pick and misquote my comments to Cong Wolf.” [2]

    SpaceX

    Immediately following SpaceX’s inaugural launch of the Falcon 9 rocket, Andy Pasztor wrote in a WSJ article titled “SpaceX Illustrates Privatization Risk” on June 7, 2010 alleging that SpaceX claimed it would require $1 billion to build a launch escape system for its rocket, and that the company would likely require future assistance from US taxpayers.[3] When asked about this, SpaceX CEO Elon Musk responded saying:

    “Andy Pasztor’s article in the Journal was, I’m sorry to say, rife with errors. He was off by a factor of ten on what it would cost SpaceX to develop a launch escape system. Also, under no circumstances would SpaceX be seeking a financing round from the taxpayers. That doesn’t make any sense.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Pasztor#Journalism_controversies

    edit: yet two day before the WSJ article

    The missing Malaysia Airlines jet sent at least two bursts of technical data back to the airline before it disappeared, New Scientist has learned. The data may help investigators understand what went wrong with the aircraft, no trace of which has yet been found.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25201-malaysian-plane-sent-out-engine-data-before-vanishing.html#.UyF2884hPb8

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  191. Reid (16,759 comments) says:

    What point do you think wikiriwhis business was trying to make? Yes, of course, he didn’t say or imply that there was a causative relationship between the insurance benefits and the dastardly deed.

    Sorry Nostradamus, my apologies for leaping to conclusions re: you, I should have known better.

    In my view, wiki was simply pointing out yet another facet in the puzzle. 911 has many pieces and some pieces are clear and other aren’t and that applies both to the existence of a particular piece being well known or not; and of the nature of the piece being well defined or not.

    Some pieces are clear and easily discovered: either asbestos existed or it didn’t and it costs x to remove. Other aren’t: either fire warped the struts and the floors pancaked to cause a near freefall-speed collapse or something else happened to cause the agreed phenomena we all witnessed.

    The asbestos is a basic, clear piece like the short trades that still haven’t been explained and which no doubt stephie will pop up a link from some learned reference that “proves” in his mind they never even happened, and I mistakenly thought you were alleging they were of that nature, that it wasn’t a facet. My apologies, I promise to read you more closely in future.

    Edit: Reid , your claim that the Federal Reserve had a role in JFK’s murder by usurping its power, Executive order 11,110 is clearly debunked here ,

    See what I mean, nostradamus?

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  192. stephieboy (3,556 comments) says:

    Reid , another piece of your spurious nonsense re JFK and Ben Gurion.JFK’s issues with Israel and its leader were relatively trvial compared to what Eisenhower had to deal with over the fallout over the Suez crises,

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2012/0927/Obama-Netanyahu-tensions-Not-as-bad-as-5-other-US-Israel-low-points/1956-Suez-fallout-Eisenhower

    Re Asbestos and WTC.? At least I provide evidence and facts with links.You simply refuse to do so on your part. Its worth repeating the item from my link again,

    “We see no evidence to suggest that the WTC “had been losing money for years”, was “a disaster”, or “under-tenanted”, as the original story claims. In fact it seems the reality was just the opposite: it was doing very well. There’s no reason to believe the asbestos problems were unmanageable, or that the WTC was a “legal and financial timebomb”, either. So the next time someone tells you that the towers had to be demolished because they were a white elephant, don’t let it go: ask them for supporting references, and see if their claims really stand up to scrutiny.”

    http://www.911myths.com/html/losing_money_at_the_wtc_.html

    Any supporting references for your claims.??

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  193. Nostradamus (2,440 comments) says:

    No worries Reid – thanks for clearing that up. One of the difficulties of communicating with each other through a blog is that our written words can be misinterpreted (innocently) or taken out of context (deliberately). For what it’s worth, I’ve been around Kiwiblog for a while, and I’ve read plenty of your comments, so I’d already worked out that your comment (the one addressed to me) was an innocent misinterpretation.

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  194. Ed Snack (1,941 comments) says:

    Cha, yes, the legitimacy of the info quoted by the WSJ is the key question, IMHO. It has been suggested to me that this could be a deliberate intel leak from US Intelligence for some reason, dissatisfaction with the way Malaysia is handling things with no official channels responding ?

    Could the WSJ and Pazstor really invent or misconstrue critical information like this ? And I see that MSA has denied that there is additional information that they received. But I think the point about the WSJ story is that RR gets this extra data itself and (maybe ?) doesn’t necessarily pass it on to the end user.

    But it’s crazy stuff alright. There’s a press conference due very shortly (I think 10:30 NZ time) so we’ll see if anything emerges at that. Though surely if true it is explosive, especially if the Malaysians knew and yet let everyone go one fruitlessly searching where they did.

    Most parsimonious explanation is BS from Pazstor, but even that is weird.

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  195. Ed Snack (1,941 comments) says:

    Quick update, watching a live TV feed of the presses, officials specifically deny receiving ACARS data after 1:07 local time. So as far as they are concerned this is false data. Possibility exists as noted above that RR has transmissions that did not get to MSA. But why, no simple answers unless we assume that the WSJ was either malicious or mistaken.

    What a mess.

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  196. Reid (16,759 comments) says:

    So as far as they are concerned this is false data.

    The ACARS is very interesting Ed. Thanks for the continuing updates on all of this, they’ve been most appreciated.

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  197. RichardX (330 comments) says:

    Reid (15,114 comments) says:
    March 13th, 2014 at 8:37 pm
    Well what would you like me to tell you about it, given whatever I say hasn’t been on Fox News, CBS, or whatever other crap you get your geopolitics from?

    What exactly are you stating will happen?
    You imply the detonation of a nuclear weapon within the city limits of Chicago in the near future
    I would like to ensure I am not ‘hallucinating’ about your claim
    Can you be more specific on what you believe will happen and when

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  198. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Re the missing plane – my money’s on the location specified by the Kiwi oil-rigger even if the debris captured on satellite hasn’t been found. The clarity and assuredness of his report makes him seem a very credible and competent witness imo.

    “Gentlemen. I believe I saw the Malaysian Airlines flight come down. The timing is right.
    I tried to contact Malaysian and Vietnamese officials days ago. But I do not know if the message has been received.
    I am on the oil ring Songa-Mercur off the coast of Vung Tau.
    The surface location of the observation is Lat 08 22’ 30.20” N Lat 108 42.22.26” E.
    I observed (the plane?) burning at high altitude at a compass bearing of 265* to 275*
    From when I first saw the burning (plane) until the flames went out (still at high altitude) was 10-15 seconds. There was no lateral movement, so it was either coming toward our location, stationary, or going away from our location.
    The general position of the observation was perpendicular/south west of the normal flight paths.
    It is very difficult to judge the distance but I would say 50 to 70 kms along the compass bearing 260-277,
    The sea surface current at our location is 2-2.3 knots in the direction of 225-230.
    The wind direction has been E-ENE averaging 15-20 knots.
    (We see the con trails every day) and at a lower altitude than the normal flight paths or on the compass bearing 265 to 275 intersecting the normal flight paths at normal altitude but further away

    Michael Jerome McKay signed off with “Good Luck”.

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  199. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    This from Reid’s source for “information.”

    “Over 160 years ago, Masonic philosopher August Comte wanted to perfect society by removing men from the procreation equation. At the same time, women would be elevated to goddess. This occult vision is being realized.”

    “A Satanic cult has colonized the earth. As I have said, the mainspring of this diabolical conspiracy is the Cabalist (Illuminati) dynastic families who own the world’s central banks. Their control of most large corporations, especially media, and consequently politicians ensures that their cancer is all pervasive.”

    And this last one just makes me want to puke;

    “After the Bolshevik Revolution, Christian nations briefly stirred in their sleep and recognized that the “Jewish Conspiracy” was not the figment of a bigot’s imagination but rather the key to understanding the human condition.”

    Henry Makow is a Jew-hating lunatic seeking an asylum. If this is the kind of tripe Reid and UT take seriously they both need to be locked up, or at least kept away from impressionable children.

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  200. Reid (16,759 comments) says:

    You imply the detonation of a nuclear weapon within the city limits of Chicago in the near future. Can you be more specific on what you believe will happen and when.

    911 was a false flag to usher in the war on tewwor, just like Gulf of Tonkin was a false flag for Vietnam. Now that they have put in place all the apparatus they need to impose a permanent state of martial law in the US, they need another false flag to do it. Chicago has been a likely target since Obama’s CoS resigned from that position to take up the mayoralty there which is like when Lange as PM gave himself Education – you just don’t do that unless you have another reason for doing it. Chicago isn’t the only target and a nuke isn’t the only alternative. For example they could also do it by a grid takedown.

    All of this is fairly common-sense Richard if you don’t have your head stuck in the sand and hallucinate the US would never do that to its own people because Congress wouldn’t let them and the military would stop them. Well if you’ve been paying attention the US has been sending its own people to die for a long time, the Congress is full of venal corruption on both sides and the military has been trying to stop them, why do you think all those top-rankers have been resigning.

    Henry Makow is a Jew-hating lunatic seeking an asylum.

    Henry Makow is a Jew. He is talking about those who say they are Jews and are not:

    Revelation 2:9.

    I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan

    The people who rule Israel are people who say they are Jews and are not, as are the neocons, as are the people at the top of AIPAC, as are the people at the top of the banks, the media, hollyweird, etc. They spin lies that idiots fall for all the time and the biggest lie of all is that criticising them is anti-Semitic. People who fall for that are truth-hating lunatics seeking an asylum.

    Also I recommend you look at his site, there’s a lot of good stuff there. I mean, in that article he listed those leaders of the Bolshevik revolution who say they are Jews but are not. And once you get past your media-induced emotional hysteria triggered by your perception of “anti-Semitism” and calm down, and ask yourself: if the Bolsheviks really did have that number of the highest level leaders who said they are Jews but aren’t, what does that mean in terms of what that revolution represented?

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  201. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    “911 was a false flag”

    Idiot.

    “All of this is fairly common-sense Richard if you don’t have your head stuck in the sand and hallucinate the US would never do that to its own people”

    By commonsense you mean stupidity and insanity. What a dick. It is only believable if you DO have your head in the sand. It requires ignorance to be that gullible.

    “Henry Makow is a Jew. He is talking about those who say they are Jews and are not:”

    LOL!!! Ahhh, the old Cabalist/Illuminita/Jew conspiracy.

    Seriously Reid, should have kept this to yourself. You have been revealed as a total moron. Good to know though, I now know not to waste any time talking to you.

    What a muppet.

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  202. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    You have been revealed as a total moron.

    Says the poster who has no explanation for the basic problem with the magic bullet theory: a bullet with enough energy to break 4 inches of Connally’s
    rib and cause an extensive fracture of his distal radius is going to suffer serious deformation, and yet the “magic bullet” has no damage consistent with this.

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  203. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, I just read your 9:27 explanation for the “magic bullet”. It’s best to avoid Wikipedia for anything related to conspiracy theory.

    However, this bullet came close to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with the bullet having little deformation.

    Not according to this critic:

    When their “magic bullet,” after traversing both the Kennedy and Connally torsos, failed to explode the simulated wrist to the extent Connally’s was damaged and bounced off the simulated thigh, they looked for it in the surrounding area, only to find a clearly deformed bullet several yards to the right of the torsos.

    Although the wounds DID NOT line up (the bullet passed below the first torso’s clavicle and out of the chest instead of out of the throat, hit the second torso four inches below the armpit, and failed to penetrate its thigh) and the bullet was bent into a “c” shape, they explained it all away by saying the bullet hit two ribs instead of one on the second torso and so therefore the single bullet theory was supported by their experiment.

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3897

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  204. RichardX (330 comments) says:

    Reid (15,115 comments) says:
    March 14th, 2014 at 8:14 am
    You imply the detonation of a nuclear weapon within the city limits of Chicago in the near future. Can you be more specific on what you believe will happen and when.
    911 was a false flag to usher in the war on tewwor, just like Gulf of Tonkin was a false flag for Vietnam. Now that they have put in place all the apparatus they need to impose a permanent state of martial law in the US, they need another false flag to do it. Chicago has been a likely target since Obama’s CoS resigned from that position to take up the mayoralty there which is like when Lange as PM gave himself Education – you just don’t do that unless you have another reason for doing it. Chicago isn’t the only target and a nuke isn’t the only alternative. For example they could also do it by a grid takedown.
    All of this is fairly common-sense Richard if you don’t have your head stuck in the sand and hallucinate the US would never do that to its own people because Congress wouldn’t let them and the military would stop them. Well if you’ve been paying attention the US has been sending its own people to die for a long time, the Congress is full of venal corruption on both sides and the military has been trying to stop them, why do you think all those top-rankers have been resigning.

    So you are not in fact saying there is a “pending nuclear detonation in Chicago”
    You are saying that there will be some unspecified event of some unspecified nature somewhere in the US at some point in the future that may or may not have anything to do with anything specific but which will allow you to claim you were right all along, just as you were with all the indicators pointing to the events of 9/11prior to 2001
    I thought it was too good to be true to hallucinate that you were making a falsifiable claim

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  205. mikenmild (12,516 comments) says:

    I’d generally recommend avoiding being drawn into Reid’s conspiracy-driven world view, although sometimes it is fun to tease him. Expect a reply pointing out how the sheeple can’t be expected to have the same insight as the great Reid, insightful monitor of geostrategic trends.

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  206. Lance (2,720 comments) says:

    So who swapped out Reids meds this morning with placebo’s?.. shame on you.

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  207. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    You must admit his missives can be entertaining.
    :lol:
    Best not to explore their collective weird alt universes to deeply.
    http://leavethecult.com/the-all-seeing-eye/

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  208. ShawnLH (6,716 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, I just read your 9:27 explanation for the “magic bullet”.”

    NO you didin’t. I did not post on the subject in the first place. I have no idea what you were reading, secret messages from the mothership perhaps?

    I would not need to consult wikipedia anyway. I understand firearms and how bullets behave quite well thanks.

    Don’t you have an anal probe to get to?

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