General Debate 18 March 2014

March 18th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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392 Responses to “General Debate 18 March 2014”

  1. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    Latest NZ Herald Digipoll:

    - National 50.8% (up 4 from Dec 2013)
    - Labour 29.5% (down 5.9)
    - Greens 13.1% (up 2.3)
    - NZ First 3.6% (down 0.3)
    - Conservative 1.3% (no change)
    - Act 0.8% (up 0.8%)
    - Other 0.5% (up 0.1)
    - Maori 0.2% (down 1.1)
    - Mana 0.1% (up 0.1)

    - Undecided 11.4%

    750 eligible voters were polled from Thursday March 6 to Sunday March 16. That was a period of major negative coverage of Cunliffe but only some of the Collins milk issue.

    The margin of error is 3.6% (presumably at a confidence of 95%) – note that +/-3.6 only applies at a polling level of 50%, see Poll ‘margin of error’ explained.

    Preferred PM:

    - John Key 66.5% (up 4.6)
    - David Cunliffe 11.1% (down 5.4)

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11221487
    http://yournz.org/2014/03/18/herald-digipoll-national-up-labour-crash/

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  2. Viking2 (11,217 comments) says:

    Voters Love fest. National 50.8%

    They can do no wrong.

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  3. flipper (3,754 comments) says:

    Picking up on Nostalgia’s comment….

    “There’s a hole in the bucket, dear Cunners, dear Cunners, a hole…”

    With what shall I fix it, dear John, dear John … With what shall fix it ?

    Try straw, dear Cunners, try straw….

    Gleep

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  4. Keeping Stock (10,161 comments) says:

    There really are only two words to talk about this morning; “Herald” and “Digipoll”. Labour drops below 30% (down six), and David Cunliffe plunges by a similar amount to now have a lower preferred prime Minister ranking than David Shearer ever did.

    And interestingly, polling took place right up until Sunday, so it takes into account the Judith Collins/Oravida “scandal” as well as Cunliffe’s secret trusts and anonymous donations, and it’s pretty evident which issue the public cares more about.

    Somehow, I doubt that even The Almighty could save Labour now, let alone Matt McCarten. There are going to be some very interesting gatherings of Labour MP’s over the next few days, especially those who face the prospect of unemployment in September.

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/digipoll-brings-bad-news-to-mr-cunliffe.html

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  5. Gosman (336 comments) says:

    If this poll had just included the Cunliffe slips in the period it was taken I would argue that it is not really reflective of much. However as it also included Collins screw up then it does indeed seem like National can do no wrong.

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  6. Keeping Stock (10,161 comments) says:

    @ Pete George – the Collins issue was first raised by Grant Robertson in Parliament on Thursday 6th March, and made the TV news that night. It has played out throughout the DigiPoll polling period.

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  7. jp_1983 (200 comments) says:

    Shock horror,
    1.5% of all property purchases are from China…

    Passport control at Auction houses and open homes anyone?

    Que Winston Peters…/ Labour Ban… Green Ban.

    On the other hand onwards and upwards for National

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  8. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    Labour has a major problem. David Cunliffe has an even bigger problem, especially in Auckland and with women.

    Labour has struggled (and failed) to recover and rebuild since Helen Clark and Michael Cullen departed after their 2008 election loss.

    Phil Goff failed to inspire, the David Shearer experiment at first seemed possibly inspired but turned out to be deluded, and after an initial surge David Cunliffe is failing to impress. The latest Herald/Digipoll has Cunliffe polling lower than Shearer ever was in ‘preferred PM’.

    Party poll results for Labour (compared to December 2013):

    - Total 29.5% (down 5.9)
    - Male 27.2% (down 5.5)
    - Female 31.5% (down 6.6)
    - Auckland 26.7% (down 9.9)
    - Rest of NZ 31% (down 3.7)

    Labour usually gets more female support but that is coming down significantly. They should be particularly worried about their crash in support in Auckland.

    Preferred PM for Cunliffe:

    - Total 11.1% (down 5.4)
    - Male 12.3% (down 5.3)
    - Female 10.1% (down 4.8)

    Female support for Labour is higher than male support (31.5 to 26.7), but rate Cunliffe lower as preferred PM than males (10.1 to 12.3).

    In comparison ‘preferred PM’ for John Key:

    - Total 66.5% (up 4.7)
    - Male 70.4% (up 8.5)
    - Female 62.7% (down 0.1)

    Key is significantly more preferred by male than female but he gets well over National levels of support from both genders.

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  9. thedavincimode (6,578 comments) says:

    Oh dear.

    It’s going to be a tough ask with only 6 months remaining, but if Cunners really lifts his game he is still a chance of reducing liebour to the high teens come the election.

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  10. seanmaitland (466 comments) says:

    So, a report has come out that says South Auckland children have an obesity rate of 18.4%, double the rest of the country, and the adult rate in South Auckland is 40 %. Additionally children in South Auckland watched more than 2 hours of television every day, higher than most other areas of the country. The same children are also likely to be going to school without breakfasts.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11221469

    How can they be obese when it is claimed they are too poor to eat, and how can they be watching so much TV if they are so poor (given that a TV is a luxury item)?

    I live in the middle of South Auckland, and I still don’t see any poverty, despite actively looking for it when I’m driving around. The number of takeaway places in our small town is ludicrous, and we even have drive through bottle stores. Our main street, which is only 800m in length has 3 adult shops and 6 bottle shops on it, and business is always booming, as is the drive thru on our local KFC which had to be extended because it couldn’t fit enough cars in it. Now it is continually packed with people movers at all times of the day when you drive past.

    It really pisses me off, when Cunliffe and the Greens try and claim that we have this massive poverty problem, when neither of them has ever set foot inside the actual ‘poor’ South Auckland suburbs that they claim are so poverty stricken.

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  11. Chuck Bird (4,728 comments) says:

    On those percentages National would get 66 seats not taking into account of UF, ACT, Mana and the Maori Party getting electorates seats.

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  12. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Preferred PM: – John Key 66.5%

    Sssssh, don’t tell Judith. :)

    BBQ time at Shane Jones’ house yet?

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  13. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    It’s funny sometimes what you hear on tv when it’s just on in the background.

    “Were not allowed to tease the sharks.”

    Ummmm……ok.

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  14. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Matt McCarten
    Is only making things worse.

    The further left they go the better national will do. Hiring matt says they are heading left at full lock.

    all great except national is a massive edifice that prevents both conservative and liberal factions on the right being satisfied.

    We need two stroung partys on the right to discern the direction we should take not one that ignores the difference between conservative and liberal voters.

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  15. alloytoo (445 comments) says:

    There appears to be a large swing vote within the left (far left block). Oscillating between Labour and the Greens.

    Note entirely sure how the Jone/Cunliffe dynamic is working, but I suspect that if Jones crossed the floor to say the Maori party labour support would collapse to the teens, and the Greens – Labour relationship would turn feral.

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  16. Keeping Stock (10,161 comments) says:

    BBQ time at Shane Jones’ house yet?

    More likely a boil-up Shawn ;-)

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  17. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    south Auckland children have an obesity rate of 18.4%, double the rest of the country, and the adult rate in South Auckland is 40 %.

    simple reason and its has nothing to do with poverty

    South Auckland has a disproportionate number of Polynesians.
    Polynesian body types give an obese bmi even when slim and healthy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10578208
    At higher BMI levels, Polynesians were significantly leaner than Europeans, implying the need for separate BMI definitions of overweight and obesity for Polynesians. The regression equations using BIA, height and weight or skinfold thicknesses were good predictors of body composition in Polynesians.

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  18. martinh (1,163 comments) says:

    It does include the Collins issue but only just, most of the polling was done bfore that got really bad.
    I wonder how Cunliffe can be rolled considering the new Labour party rules.
    That baby policy of theirs and Cunliffe about his Herne Bay house being middle NZ and all his other stuff ups just shows that Harvard isnt actually that impressive

    Have they actually rescinded that stupid baby policy ?

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  19. hj (6,602 comments) says:

    New Zealand Research on the Economic Impacts of Immigration

    2005–2010 – Synthesis and research agenda
    Figure 4 shows that the migrants from all regions of origin have a positive net fiscal impact. However, it also shows that significant differences exist between regions of origin. This reflects the different characteristics associated with region of origin. For example, those from the United Kingdom, Europe, and North America are likely to be skilled migrants. Many migrants from Asia, especially China, are foreign fee-paying students. Further, NewZealand has two residence categories that reflect its special relationship with the Pacific.[55] Although these categories still require a job offer, the entry requirements are lower.

    http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/research/synthesis-research/synthesis-research_06.asp
    http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/research/synthesis-research/synthesis-research-fig4-large.asp

    Limitations and discussion
    Is assumed migrant won’t age
    Infrastructure isn’t taken into account.
    Study covers period of budget surplus.

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  20. Chuck Bird (4,728 comments) says:

    I just had a look at a poll on the Herald and 68% reckon Labour cannot bounce back.

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  21. flipper (3,754 comments) says:

    The reality of the last round of polls, confirmed by Herald-Digi, is that it demonstrates:

    1. That the unions, being nothing more than self perpetuating monuments to the world of 1900, are out of touch with the general populace;

    2. That New Zealanders are far smarter than the ideologues of the left realise;

    3. That New Zealanders can detect a “bridge for sale” scam , especially when they are being asked to fund the purchase, and

    4. Cunners and the entire Labour leadership, sans perhaps, Jones, is living in la la land.

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  22. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “More likely a boil-up Shawn”

    So it’s bring your own KFC then.

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  23. seanmaitland (466 comments) says:

    ah, so its because they are big boned :)

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  24. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    It may have something to do with Matt, but I suspect that Cunliffe is quite capable of achieving these results all on his own.

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  25. Ross12 (1,222 comments) says:

    Greenpeace suing Russia over the Arctic 30 !!! Another one for the Tui billboards. Puitin will be laughing like crazy over this.

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  26. flipper (3,754 comments) says:

    A message…
    For the idiot attempting to look “scientific” quoting BMIs….

    Try examining the SGs (specific gravity) of Polynesian, Caucasian and Negro races.

    BMIs are as useless as tits on a bull.

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  27. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Is assumed migrant won’t age
    Infrastructure isn’t taken into account.

    That is because if both these factors are taken into account it exposes the massive Ponzi scam that is immigration.

    We are using immigration to pay for historical infrastructure cost and ignore the fact that the immigrants increase the amount of infrastructure needed.

    Using new investors in nz inc to pay out the old ones is a ponzi ultimately unsustainable in our finite natural resource driven economy.

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  28. tas (596 comments) says:

    Labour below 30%. That’s gotta hurt. They can’t even match the 34% that Helen Clark scored when she got turfed out.

    I always find the preferred PM numbers interesting. Key leads by a 6-to-1 ratio over Cunliffe. If this were a presidential election, it would be a landslide. However, under our parliamentary system the election will be much closer than that. Why is that?

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  29. RF (1,318 comments) says:

    I hear that the great legal advisor Mickey Savage is real savage about the poll although he turned a Nelsons eye to it on this mornings blog. Phones are currently red hot with please explains in the labour nest and what the f…. Do we do now.

    I am as happy as a dog with two tails to wag.

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  30. mandk (849 comments) says:

    @ Griffith,
    Are you suggesting that obesity amongst pasifika people is overstated as a problem?
    If you are, you should think again.
    Incidence of type 2 diabetes amongst pasifika people is large and growing, and its consequences are grave if left unaddressed (blindness, limb loss, kidney failure, heart disease and more).
    Its a huge and costly problem for NZ.

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  31. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    flipper (3,197 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 8:37 am

    A message…
    For the idiot attempting to look “scientific” quoting BMIs….

    Try examining the SGs (specific gravity) of Polynesian, Caucasian and Negro races.

    BMIs are as useless as tits on a bull.

    Well done flippy that is the content of the post "bmi dosent work with polys" except some of us like to prove with links and cite facts rather than post unsupported statements from unknown mupets .

    Are you coming out to play flippy Shall we explore some of your “scientific statements” :lol:

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  32. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “some of us like to prove with links and cite facts”

    That should read ‘some of us like to prove with links and cite facts only from sources approved by me and that confirm my opinions.’

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  33. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Are you suggesting that obesity amongst pasifika people is overstated as a problem?

    No I am stating that using BMI is not a measure of obesity with the Polynesian body type.

    Griff is a care giver for an oldy with type 2 diabetes, He is reasonably conversant with the condition its causes and how to prevent it. Eating to much shit overprocessed sugery pap causes type 2.

    Griff is classified as obese under the bmi index at 50 and if he squesses his gut the fat is around 10mm not oberes at all

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  34. Chuck Bird (4,728 comments) says:

    Interesting reading

    John Armstrong: Labour’s best hope for Key to hit political banana skin pre-election
    5:30 AM Tuesday Mar 18, 2014

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11221487

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  35. Paulus (2,540 comments) says:

    Looks as though the Greens are taking Labour’s votes.

    The upward, middle class, University educated, trendy, latte/Chardonnay drinking, ladies are deserting the sinking boat for greater left wing movement

    - which will not affect them anyway. Chardonnay is Chardonnay anyway.

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  36. david (2,547 comments) says:

    Two possible reasons why Auckland support for Labour has nosedived.

    - Aucklanders are more generally aware of where Herne Bay is and the absurdity of Cunnliffe’s hypocrisy over the “rich suburb” attack on Key

    - The Brown effect. The more Lyen Len is described as “Labour mayor Len Brown” the more the Brown stain will rub off onto Labour as a whole.

    Couldn’t happen to a better bunch of blokes, blokesses and others.

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  37. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Why are politicians getting involved in trying to control money lenders? This is a market that basically self-regulates, going by the credit ratings of prospective borrowers. The ones doing the whinging have defaulted on loans with mainstream credit agencies, hence when they want to borrow, they get loaded interest rates, plus a requirement of guarantors and heavy securities. One should place themselves in the position of these lending institutions and visualise what their actions would be. If there is any interference in the money market, believe me, the gangs will move in poste and haste, and defaulters will be walking with permanent limps and no chattels . . . not bad credit ratings and hurt pride.

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  38. david (2,547 comments) says:

    More on the Brown effect

    Aucklanders who are fed up have no other vehicle to vent their frustrations about his unwillingness to accept the diminution of his support, than to take it out on the Labour Party.

    discuss

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  39. wreck1080 (3,784 comments) says:

    labour try to become popular by attacking national.

    I think this is a very negative approach as constant attacking looks petty and negative.

    And, the few policies that labour does announce, they screw up.

    Labour really need to start concentrating on policy and not on attacking others.

    And, the greens are a necessary hangmans noose for labour. They can’t win with them, and can’t win without them.

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  40. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Complete silence on the poll over at the Stranded.

    Gee, I wonder why? :)

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  41. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    Conservatives steady on 1.3%…..they only have one strategy that works so better find someone new to sue & look sharp about it Colin.

    Political oblivion awaits if you fail. :)

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  42. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Newstalkzb subs are doing their best to rectify “Tojo’s” pathetic leadership of the Labour Party. How many times has his arrogant voice been heard this morning on any topic that may give him some traction . . . it is a effen disgrace and insult to listeners.

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  43. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (439 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 8:50 am

    “some of us like to prove with links and cite facts”

    That should read ‘some of us like to prove with links and cite facts only from sources approved by me and that confirm my opinions.’
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    :lol:

    muppet if you dont post rubbish i will ignore you if you would like to play goody goody lets examine your sources.

    John McLean
    According to your posts yesterday is a world-renowned climate scientist who has published papers so if he attacks the science of the IPCC reports he is right.

    Here is one of his three scientific papers
    http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=7349

    Unfortunately a scientist who is so often so spectacularly wrong is not a good source of factual attacks on the ipcc

    He is a wingnut with extreme views proven wrong by the failure of his own papers tp predict climate temperature trends in any way.

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  44. Chuck Bird (4,728 comments) says:

    igm, you should be listening to Leighton on NewstalkZB.

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  45. jcuk (625 comments) says:

    Seanmaitland …. I believe that when people are at the poverty level they tend to eat junk food which adds fat rather than energy.
    It is mainly the relatively afluent that can afford to eat good food and have the education to do this.

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  46. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    ” lets examine your sources”

    Your source has been caught lying, distorting facts, and trying to persecute and silence dissent. The IPCC is not remotely a trustworthy source of facts.

    I’ll take a straight talker like Mclean over people who lie every time. And given that your job is a caregiver, I’ll take it as affirmed that you have no credentials to judge the work of real scientists.

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  47. Colville (2,149 comments) says:

    Nats on 50.8, NZF and Cons have 5% between them that Nats would get half of so 54% plus ACT and UF one each, Maori two seats?.

    Yippeee :-)

    Key has said (I am pretty sure) that any party now in the tent would be welcome back after ’14 election? So Maori party back at the table.

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  48. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    david: Support left-wing leeches and this is what you get. Lecher was elected by predominantly non-ratepayers, which should be changed, so as principal ratepayers only, should vote in local body elections, then scum like Brown would never get elected.

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  49. seanmaitland (466 comments) says:

    @flipper – read the fucking article you retard, it is nothing to do with BMIs – someone else came on here and tried to make out it was BMIs being used. The kids are medically being classified as obese.

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  50. thedavincimode (6,578 comments) says:

    It is mainly the relatively afluent that can afford to eat good food and have the education to do this.

    Fuckwit alert.

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  51. jcuk (625 comments) says:

    If New Zealand is moving to the right, heaven forbid, it is an indication that people are becoming more selfish and “f… you Mate I’m OK” ish and regretably do not believe in a responsible society looking after its members.

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  52. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    A South Australian judge has suspended a 21-year-old man’s jail sentence for having sex with a 13-year-old girl after saying young Australians did not realise underage sex was a serious crime.

    District Court Judge Rosemary Davey said Sasha Pierre Huerta’s two-year jail term should be wholly suspended because he was not a predator and his underage victim “was looking for” a sexual encounter, The Advertiser reports.

    Huerta pleaded guilty to one count of having sexual intercourse with a person under the age of 14, which Judge Davey lamented was the “kind of criminal conduct … happening day in, day out” in the “crazy mixed up world we live in”.

    “In fact, if you ask most 17-year-olds or 16-year-olds whether they know (underage sex) was an offence carrying seven years’ imprisonment, they would die with their leg in the air,” the judge said according to court transcripts quoted by the newspaper.

    “It’s just crazy, in my view, that we maintain this law and we do not pass the message on out into the community.”

    Huerta met the girl last month at a bar, which led to sexually-explicit Facebook interactions during which the girl claimed she was 14.

    She dressed “like a 23-year-old” and “presented herself as a woman”, including attending bars, the court heard.

    “This is a girl who was not a girl who was sitting at home just putting Barbie dolls away,” Judge Davey said.

    Huerta was sentenced to a two-year jail term, wholly suspended with a two-year good behaviour bond.

    ———–
    Yep – if you are a girl who has a drink at the ripe old age of 13 – then that is good enough grounds for a 21yld to try and fuck you. The court said so.

    There will be more than just a few Aussie fathers who will now tell this judge to go fuck herself! :cool:

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  53. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Eating good food is cheaper than buying processed crap.
    it is a poverty of knowledge “ignorance” that gives a bad diet that and being to lazy to make an effort

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  54. smttc (710 comments) says:

    jcuk, they are missing you over at the Stranded and the Daily Bog.

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  55. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    jcuk,

    “I believe that when people are at the poverty level they tend to eat junk food which adds fat rather than energy. It is mainly the relatively afluent that can afford to eat good food”

    Fast food is actually fairly expensive. The “poor” do not eat fast food because it is cheaper than good food, it’s not, nor is it a lack of education. Everyone knows lots of fast food is bad for you.

    I spent quite a bit of time socialising with a few “poor” folks in south Auckland. I remember vividly the cries of poverty and hardship and how evil the Nats were by people who would not think twice about going through two packs of ciggies and multiple boxes of beer in a single night, while their kids went to school without lunch.

    We have created a culture of entitlement, especially among Maori, which destroys personal responsibility.

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  56. Nostalgia-NZ (4,986 comments) says:

    From martinh above regarding the most recent poll…

    ‘It does include the Collins issue but only just, most of the polling was done bfore that got really bad.’

    This is very interesting. Cunliffe has been gifted a reprieve that he may not know how to exploit, if ever he had the opportunity to shout ‘rich pricks’ and cronyism it is now. On the other hand the poll probably has not registered the full impact of the Collin’s affair – of more interest however is the possibility that the public care less about politicians behaviour in general. I say that pointing out 2 years of claim and counter claim regarding secret trust donations and so forth until a complacency has taken hold. If that is in anyway true it is added to by the fact that although we prepare to enter winter an economic summer appears to be upon the country. I’m not saying that there is a broad satisfaction about, but am reminded of the saying that ‘over fat bears are no match for lean wolves,’ economically there is a scarcity of lean wolves and this poll result might mirror that despite the individual strengths and weaknesses of politicians on the current landscape – the public may simply not care, choosing to enjoy the Indian summer arrived after years of good economic charting in hard times.

    That said, and as quoted above, Armstrong’s observations about banana skins remains the political reality as is always the case. I could imagine that David Cunliffe might concentrate to hard on trying to find those banana skins about to trip his political opponents whilst in the meantime not dealing what with what is in front of him, the people.

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  57. smttc (710 comments) says:

    Harriett, do you think Huerta should have asked to see her birth certificate. FFS.

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  58. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    If a group of people wish to chew their way to premature graves then let them & Kentucky Fried get on with it. If they diverted the money being sent back to the island churches they could invest in rows & rows of dialysis machines each with its attached pokie machine & microwave to heat up buckets of chicken wings.

    Just so long as I don’t have to pay for their ignorance & arrogance.

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  59. Nookin (3,142 comments) says:

    RIP
    Frank Oliver — a good hard southern man

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  60. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    But as things presently stand you do have to pay for it, nasska.

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  61. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (441 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 9:20 am

    ” lets examine your sources”

    I’ll take a straight talker like Mclean over people who lie every time. And given that your job is a caregiver, I’ll take it as affirmed that you have no credentials to judge the work of real scientists.

    :lol:

    back to the conspiracy of the scientific community

    Mclean has predicted that the temperature in 2010 would be lower than 1956 using a blatant curve fitting exercise.
    His co writers on the paper Carter and De fritz are just as inept in there attempts at climate science.

    This is defritze contribution to climate science.

    The True Story of Climate Research Pal Review
    https://www.skepticalscience.com/pal-review.htm

    Mashey has done an excellent job documenting a real life case of pal review, which happened at the journal Climate Research between 1997 and 2003. That particular journal was once again brought to the forefront in the recent second Climategate stolen email release.

    In those emails, various climate scientists had expressed concern that Climate Research was publishing shoddy papers by a small group of climate contrarians, and discussed what they could do about it. The most infamous of these papers was one by Soon and Baliunas (2003) which concluded that current global temperatures are not anomalous compared the past 1,000 years. After publishing this paper, Soon was invited by Senator James Inhofe to testify before US Congress, and the Soon and Baliunas paper was used by Congressional Republicans to justify opposition to climate legislation.

    However, the paper contained numerous major fundamental flaws, such as equating dryness with hotness, and was subsequently roundly refuted by an article in the American Geophysical Union journal Eos written by a number of prominent climate scientists. This paper, and Climate Research’s refusal to revise or retract it, led to the resignation of five of the journal’s editors, including recently-appointed editor-in-chief Hans von Storch, who explained the reason for his resignation:

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  62. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    I believe that when people are at the poverty level they tend to eat junk food which adds fat rather than energy.

    Who is forcing them? An indication of lower IQ, maybe?
    @jcuk: you are really a stupid condescending lefty.

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  63. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    “…..Harriett, do you think Huerta should have asked to see her birth certificate. FFS……”

    The judge clearly pointed out that ‘looking for sex’ is the deciding factor – not her appearance.

    So what’s the differance if you know the girl is 13 or not? The judge more or less said it is now o.k for a 21 yld to fuck a 13 yld if she agrees.

    So if a 21yld thinks a 13yld is ‘looking’ for sex- then it is now ok for him to aim toward that goal.

    ‘she’s looking for sex’ is in the eye of the beholder. A great defense.

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  64. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Griff, you may not have noticed, but most posters here are, to put it mildly, bored by your fundamentalist eco-doomsday religion. Move on son.

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  65. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Nah, keep it up griffith.

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  66. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Yes, griff. Fuck off to The sub-Standard with your AGW crap.

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  67. Kimbo (672 comments) says:

    RIP
    Frank Oliver — a good hard southern man

    AKA “Filth”- courtesy of his time as a cop, rather than his style of play!

    A crucial performer on the Jack Gleeson/Graham Mourie grand slam tour of 1978.

    Oliver actually stepped down from the captaincy after the 1978 series against the Wallabies (Mourie had been injured at the time), and insisted if they tried to make him captain having to do all the after-match dinner speeches in Britain he was unavailable! Like another Otago former All Black captain Kevin Skinner who stood down from leading on the British tour in 1953-54, a man of actions rather than words.

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  68. Albert_Ross (264 comments) says:

    Brief lull in general conversation and noise at the bus stop this morning, so I heard the following from a conversation between a couple of (about) ten-year-old boys.

    “We’re not allowed more than 600″.

    What could they have been talking about? What would ten-year-olds not be allowed more than 600 of?

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  69. iMP (2,304 comments) says:

    As a fish swimming against the current, I’m gonna say I actually think poll is bad news for National 6 months from a general election, NZers have shown again and again they like balance, unless punishing a terrible government (1990, 2002). This is not the case today, so the electorate will BALANCE the main parties. National’s vote will be ‘adjusted’ so it doesn’t become smug (ie get over 50%) and the Centre-Left gang (despite themselves) will be tossed some sympathy.

    Its only a reading of 750 people. Creates more space for surprise on 20 Sept.

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  70. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    The tyrant retaliates: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/17/russia-will-sanction-u-s-officials.html

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  71. publicwatchdog (2,203 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11221478

    FYI Kiwibloggers, the 10 day deadline I was given by the Team Leader for Credit Control Rates at Auckland Council has now passed, and I still have the same three words to say to Auckland Council – GO TO HELL!

    After threatening a complaint to the Privacy Commissioner, if I did not receive an acknowledgement of the following Privacy Act request, yesterday I FINALLY received said acknowledgement – which said:


    ………………
    Privacy Act 1993
    Re: Decision re letter dated 3 March 2014

    Thank you for your email, which we received on 11 March 2014, requesting information about involvement of the Mayor, Principal Administrative Officer, CEO office and members of the Governing Body of Auckland Council in regard to a letter you received from Auckland Council dated 03 March.

    We are processing your request according to the provisions of the Privacy Act 1993. You will receive a response 20 working days after receipt of your request, as required by the Act. Please note this is a maximum response time and we will endeavour to respond sooner.

    We acknowledge that you have requested this information urgently, and we will endeavour to complete your request as quickly as possible.

    If you have any further queries please contact me on (09) 301 0101, quoting Official Information Request No. 9000128501.

    Yours sincerely,

    ………………….
    Information Advisor
    AKLC Electoral Office/Public Info Unit ”
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    So – it would appear that that threatening letter from Auckland Council on 3 March 2014 was sent without lawful authority?

    “Mr Walters said the council developed a policy in pursuing rating sales last March and undertook a review of rates arrears in October.

    One hundred and seventy-nine ratepayers were being reviewed and about $2.5 million was outstanding in rates.

    “Very few of these will result in actual sale of property as many ratepayers settle the arrears during the rating sale process.”

    Really?

    Did any of the other ‘One hundred and seventy-nine ratepayers were being reviewed’ receive the same threatening letter that I did?

    hmmmm……… time for another OIA request…..

    PS: Had a discussion with the Detective Inspector who is in charge of assessing complaints I have filed with Auckland Central Police involving Auckland Council, and I should know the outcome within 2-3 days.

    Of course, if the Police choose not to take action, there is always the Graham McCready ‘private prosecution’ option, which managed to get John Banks committed to trial.

    Hopefully, that will not be necessary.

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz

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  72. thedavincimode (6,578 comments) says:

    When is the open home?

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  73. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Interested in buying DVM, or just want to see Penny’s home?

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  74. Rich Prick (1,600 comments) says:

    “NZ First 3.6% (down 0.3)”

    With a bit of luck Winston will be collecting the pension, rather than determining it.

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  75. Chuck Bird (4,728 comments) says:

    “Harriett, do you think Huerta should have asked to see her birth certificate. FFS.”

    @smttc

    There were sexually-explicit Facebook interactions during which the girl claimed she was 14. FFS

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  76. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “FYI Kiwibloggers”

    WE DON’T CARE. PAY YOUR RATES.

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  77. thedavincimode (6,578 comments) says:

    Neither milky.

    It’s just an opportunity to pick up some new footwear.

    Now back to work.

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  78. hj (6,602 comments) says:

    The market forces that push developers and landowners to build “more” and “bigger” have cropped up in some of the swankiest neighborhoods in Portland. So far, neighbors who oppose the projects are finding scant legal recourse to prevent the changes.

    http://www.planetizen.com/node/67796?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=03172014
    So what Jamie Whyte proposes (gutting the RMA and leave it to legal recourse) is BS.

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  79. wf (388 comments) says:

    @ Harriet 9.25. : Maybe the fathers you reference should keep their 14 year-old daughters out of bars?

    I don’t know how some girls escape , ummm, intact, the way they display their bodies. Talk about jail bait!

    Young men are genetically programmed to respond to such displays so why should they be any more to blame than the young women?

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  80. iMP (2,304 comments) says:

    Even at Labour’s lowest ebb, an based on 750 people, a timely reminder that the Centre Left is

    43% (CL) vs 50.8% (Nat) without allies.

    There is no Q. that National’s vote will draw back. Call it

    45% (CL) vs 48% (Nat).

    There are 11% undecided. This is still anyone’s election. And smugness and such a huge lead 6 months out is not somewhere I’d like to be if I was John Key.

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  81. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (443 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 9:41 am

    Griff, you may not have noticed, but most posters here are, to put it mildly, bored by your fundamentalist eco-doomsday religion. Move on son.

    Griff has Translated this as you have made a dick of me and pointed out that my sources are crap so rather than confronting my stupidity I are trying to shut down the laugher.

    An inept scientist supported by other inept scientists who are all linked together in a concerted effort to subvert the finding of real scientists.

    A founding member of Greenpeace who wasnt Patrick moore a paid lobbyist for the hydro carbon industry
    A scientist who is a total failure at climate science Mclean Linked in one of his papers to defritze a man who blatently dostorted peer review to puplished wingnut theory to sopport his anti science nonsence.

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  82. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    iMP,

    “Its only a reading of 750 people”

    It’s part of a several polls recently showing the same trend. And while NZ’ers may like “balance” they punish parties that are disorganized, poorly led, and suffering from severe internal disunity. Barring a banana peel miracle, Labour are done.

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  83. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    I incline towards iMP’s analysis – the election will be closer than it appears now. Look for Winston to play kingmaker for one last time.

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  84. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Griff has Translated this”

    A psychiatrist could build a career on your self-delusion. :)

    What colour is the sky in your world?

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  85. Chuck Bird (4,728 comments) says:

    wf, How old are you? Do you have children? If you do you should not have custody if you think it is okay for an adult to have sex with a 13 year old. The girl told them man she was 14.

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  86. publicwatchdog (2,203 comments) says:

    Where is the ‘Taxpayers Union’ on this issue of Auckland Council ratepayers’ LAWFUL rights to ‘open, transparent and democratically-accountable local government’?

    Does the Taxpayers Union agree that Auckland Council have a statutory duty to uphold and implement the Public Records Act 2005, s 17?

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2005/0040/latest/DLM345729.html

    17 Requirement to create and maintain records

    (1) Every public office and local authority must create and maintain full and accurate records of its affairs, in accordance with normal, prudent business practice, including the records of any matter that is contracted out to an independent contractor.
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    If not – why not?

    Seems the Taxpayers Union has a LOT to say on some matters – how about THIS?

    Come on Jordan Williams – time to ‘step up to the plate’?

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz

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  87. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    wf,

    “I don’t know how some girls escape , ummm, intact, the way they display their bodies. Talk about jail bait!”

    Get professional help. Now.

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  88. stephieboy (2,449 comments) says:

    The close correlation between Climate Denial and Conpiracy theories like Chemtrails etc,

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  89. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    ” Climate Denial”

    These labels are just hilarious! :)

    Is anyone denying that we have climate?

    I actually do believe we are experiencing radical climate change. But I am suspicious of those AGW fundamentalists claiming a single cause, and demanding extreme economic sacrifices that impinge on liberty and wealth creation.

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  90. stephieboy (2,449 comments) says:

    Shawn , so you now admit the reality of climate change.?
    Yes.?
    Now the fact of the close corruption between climate denial change and conspiracy theory like chemtraisl. Etc,

    http://ufbutv.com/climate-change/the-climate-change-deceit-conspiracy-theory-and-global-warming/

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  91. smttc (710 comments) says:

    Chuck, she claimed she was 14. The charge admitted (which I assume is a strict liability charge) was having sex with a person under the age of 14. If she had been 14 no charge would have been laid. As I say, do you think he should have asked to see her birth certificate?

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  92. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    @stephieboy: you would be much better off sticking to the subject you know the most: Feminine Studies.

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  93. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    :lol:

    RRFL
    all the evil scientists a wrong you can only trust unofficial sources classic conspiracy thinking.

    Your source has been caught lying, distorting facts, and trying to persecute and silence dissent. The IPCC is not remotely a trustworthy source of facts.

    I’ll take a straight talker like Mclean over people who lie every time. And given that your job is a caregiver, I’ll take it as affirmed that you have no credentials to judge the work of real scientists.

    And you credentials are?

    Griff has read both sides and has a reasonable understanding of climate science you on the other hand restrict you sources to wingnut blogs and have 0 idea at all .
    As I suggested before if you don;t want to be the but of my jokes stfu about something you know nothing about as your ignorance and stupidity is obvious. The down votes dont interest me it is holding wingnuts like you up to reality that keeps me here not ticks from fuckwits.

    You are a libertarian judging by your previous posts your political views are simply anarchy for the rich.

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  94. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Shawn , so you now admit the reality of climate change.? Yes.?”

    I have never said otherwise. In fact my first post on the issue said exactly that. But AGW fundamentalists don’t seem to deal very well with nuanced opinions that avoid both extremes.

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  95. chickadee (15 comments) says:

    Foreigners are buying up houses through friends and relatives who are already New Zealand residents. We should block out foreigners but due to recent immigration it is possibly too late.

    At least Labour will try to sort it out. I am a National supporter but some credit to Labour at least they will try.

    I want to buy my first home before I am thirty but my savings are going backwards. New Zealanders being left out in their own country is bad.

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  96. wreck1080 (3,784 comments) says:

    The biggest news in the world today is not even mentioned on the stuff website front page.

    http://www.popsci.com/article/science/huge-physics-finding-supports-big-bang-theory?dom=PSC&loc=slider&lnk=1&con=detecting-the-bang

    Gravity waves have been detected!!! This is nobel prize / understanding of the universe material if confirmed.

    Think about if the sun suddenly disappeared. Would we feel the effects instantaneously or would the change in gravity propagate like a wave?

    Well, it appears the wave theory is correct.

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  97. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    No muppet lh shawn of reason your original statements when I started making fun of you was
    the climate could be warming or cooling

    cooling climate. :lol:

    barring some very significant geological event cooling is impossible so long as we keep increase the co2 the temperatures will keep rising

    this is the conclusion of science any thing else is total fantasy based on wingnuttology from alt web sites

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  98. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    How can they be obese when it is claimed they are too poor to eat,

    High fat combined with high carbohydrates. Potatoes and bread are cheap.

    and how can they be watching so much TV if they are so poor (given that a TV is a luxury item)?

    Many in Africa have smart phones, does that mean they are rich? Of course not. Electronics are one time expenses and they get cheap very quickly.

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  99. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ wf (302 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 9:57 am

    …Young men are genetically programmed to respond to such displays so why should they be any more to blame than the young women?

    Because we are meant to be socialised beings, and able to control our animal urges. If we decide we don’t want to be that, then along with what you suggest, we have to also allow the strongest to kill and so on… that is not the type of society most of us would want to live in.

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  100. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    “……Chuck, she claimed she was 14. The charge admitted (which I assume is a strict liability charge) was having sex with a person under the age of 14. If she had been 14 no charge would have been laid. As I say, do you think he should have asked to see her birth certificate?….”

    The sex age laws in the Aussie States have been up till now:

    A 2yr gap maximum.

    If the minor is 13 – then the older cannot be older than 15.

    The lowest age of consensual ‘legal’ sex is in Tasmania where a minor can be 10 and the older minor no older than 12[the 2yr gap]. If they are 13 or 14 [3 or more years older than the 10yld] ect they then face the courts.[I presume youth court]

    This is a big change but I think it will be appealed and re-tried.

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  101. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Denial: When it helps, when it hurts
    Denial is a coping mechanism that gives you time to adjust to distressing situations — but staying in denial can interfere with treatment or your ability to tackle challenges. By Mayo Clinic Staff

    If you’re in denial, you’re not being realistic about something that’s happening in your life — something that might be obvious to those around you.

    In some cases, a little denial can be a good thing. Being in denial for a short period can be a healthy coping mechanism, giving you time to adjust to a painful or stressful issue. It might also be a precursor to making some sort of change in your life. Still, denial has a dark side. Being in denial for too long can prevent you from effectively dealing with issues that require action, such as a health crisis or a financial situation.

    Find out when denial can help — and when it can be a roadblock.
    Understanding denial and its purpose

    Refusing to acknowledge that something’s wrong is a way of coping with emotional conflict, stress, painful thoughts, threatening information and anxiety.

    When you’re in denial, you:

    Refuse to acknowledge a stressful problem or situation
    Avoid facing the facts of the situation
    Minimize the consequences of the situation

    In its strictest sense, denial is an unconscious process. You don’t generally decide to be in denial about something. But some research suggests that denial might have a conscious component — on some level, you might choose to be in denial.

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  102. dirty harry (444 comments) says:

    they were great to watch…very un- PC

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/9839587/Two-Fat-Ladies-chef-Clarissa-Dickson-Wright-dies

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  103. wreck1080 (3,784 comments) says:

    @chickadee — too late for Auckalnd, but you should consider a move away from Auckland.

    This started in the mid-90′s — someone made a decision to allow mass immigration of chinese. Not sure what changed then to allow this , but it did and todays Auckland is vastly changed in population makeup. Just look at the businesses and radio stations catering to chinese.

    I have a theory this began through the selling of our educational facilities to young chinese — these young chinese grew up and are now moving their families and friends here too.

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  104. flipper (3,754 comments) says:

    A message for Shaunie Maitland….

    1. Go re-read what was said ….and learn who is really the retard.

    2. Obesity cannot be usefully measured by the use of BMI.

    3. Bering medically obese and BMI “obese” are not the same – by any measure, at any age.

    4. Most people lf Polynesian or Negro extraction would fail a BMI/obesity test.

    5. All those heavily muscled secondary school rugby players of Tongan or Samoan extraction are a maitlanbd myth, are they not?

    6. Almost every All Black forward, and many backs, are obese by the BMI measure.

    So seanretard, take your half baked views and shove them.

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  105. Chuck Bird (4,728 comments) says:

    SA Criminal Law Consolidation Act 1935 (Section 49)
    The age of consent for sexual interactions is 17 years.
    If a person is charged with engaging in sexual activities with a person under the legal age, a legal defence is outlined in section 49(4). It states that:
    It shall be a defence to a charge under subsection (3) to prove that –
    (a) the person with whom the accused is alleged to have had sexual intercourse was, on the date on which the offence is alleged to have been committed, of or above the age of sixteen years; and
    (b) the accused –
    (i) was, on the date on which the offence is alleged to have been committed, under the age of seventeen years; or
    (ii) believed on reasonable grounds that the person with whom he is alleged to have had sexual intercourse was of or above the age of seventeen years.

    It is clearly against the law for a 21 year old to have sex with a 13 year old in South Australia.

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  106. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    flippy everyone has stated the standard bmi does not give an overview of obessty if applied to the poly race.

    I would guess you are as fat as a cream donut :lol:

    your comprehension is the fault not any ones posting.

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  107. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Stephieboy,

    A conspiracy theory is by it’s very nature something cannot be proven one way or another. That is part of what makes it attractive to some people. Pointing out that the IPCC has a bad track record with regards to it’s predictions (and eco-doomsadayers), and that some members have admitted lying for political reasons, such as the claim that the Himalayas would be submerged by 2035, is simply a statement of fact, not a conspiracy theory.

    The world is a complex place, but human beings sometimes do not deal well with complexity, so they simplify things into easy categories that make the world, to them at least, easier to deal with.

    Both the claim that nothing at all is happening climate wise, and the claim that the IPCC is always right and true and that AGW is the main cause of climate change, are both attempts to over simplify a complex issue.

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  108. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    Chuck#

    Thanks for looking that up.

    The laws I talked about is where both the people engaging in sex are minors. There cannot be more than a 2yr age gap between them.

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  109. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    I would also point out that if Griff was genuinely concerned about the issue, he would try to make his arguments in such a way that does not make people defensive, such as using “wingnuttery” and other ad hominems. This only puts peoples backs up, and thus far less likely to listen to his arguments. Which is why I suspect that he’s just trolling, and not terribly concerned with the state of the planet at all.

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  110. Nostalgia-NZ (4,986 comments) says:

    griff, unashamed about copying others, has resumed on KB speaking about himself in the third person, just like dime does. Small thing I know. Of course griff has revealed that he is now a care-giver to his father and this morning, he reveals, also to others – something which must be appreciated. With all these changes, third person talker, care giver etc perhaps a new ‘brand’ might have been the order of the day – ‘Florence Nightingale’ or ‘florry’ for short.

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  111. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “griff, unashamed about copying others, has resumed on KB speaking about himself in the third person”

    Never a good sign. In all seriousness I have wondered about his state of mind health wise.

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  112. dime (9,607 comments) says:

    argh another day of the warmists insisting we convert to their church?

    fun.

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  113. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    Calling him ‘florry’ will lighten his daily load. That’ll do. :cool:

    Unless he’s bullshitting. But that would be rather sick.

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  114. Ross12 (1,222 comments) says:

    One for Griff

    http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/03/marijuana-pot-weed-statistics-climate-change

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  115. dime (9,607 comments) says:

    In the US, 80% of rapists come from fatherless homes…

    Wonder what the stat is over here? are we allowed to know?

    In the US, more males are raped than females. Doubt thats the same here. Our prison system seems… nicer.

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  116. Nostalgia-NZ (4,986 comments) says:

    He could end up a ‘florry’ driver for an Asian supermarket delivering live ‘flucks’ and other tasty morsels from the markets. Flucking florry drivers these days.

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  117. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Putin laughs at the Messiah: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/03/russian-deputy-pm-laughs-at-obamas-sanctions/

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  118. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    griffith (175 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 10:33 am

    barring some very significant geological event cooling is impossible

    What about some astrophysical event?


    The surface of the sun has been surprisingly calm of late – with fewer sunspots than anytime in the last century – prompting curious scientists to wonder just what it might mean here on Earth.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=11162126

    Unlikely to result in cooling in the long term, but impossible?

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  119. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    Yeah, fucking hilarious Manolo.
    /

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/russia-could-still-turn-the-u-s-into-radioactive-dust-news-anchor-in-moscow-reminds-viewers/?

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  120. Jack5 (4,779 comments) says:

    PC hypocrisy shows its nasty and tyrannical side with Ministry of Education “inquiries” into what is being taught in Rudolf Steiner schools.

    After complaints, the Ministry is reining Steiner schools into its neo-apartheid fold. Here’s the Ministry reporting on an inquiry into a Steiner school on the Kapiti coast:

    As a result of complaints, there was now a greater curriculum focus on the Treaty of Waitangi and te reo…

    Steiner, who died in 1925 aged 64, in common with many, perhaps most whites of those times, had some views that today could be called racist. However, in the seminal years of what was to become Nazism and shortly before Steiner’s death, the then main theorist of the Nazis alleged Steiner was a Jew (he wasn’t) and Hitler attacked Steiner’s philosophy as being “pro-Jewish”.

    Steiner did found a spiritualist movement that seems to me weird but it did attract the interest of many famous literary people of the day including W.B.Yeats, the writers Jack London, Lewis Carroll, D.H. Lawrence, T.S. Eliot, and even Kurt Vonnegut. Ghandi, Sibelius and Thomas Edison are also said to have been interested, but it seems to have influenced chiefly artistic people. The artist Fassbinder, much admired in Northland, is a Steiner graduate.

    If Steiner is to be judged by the racial standards of his day, what of Kipling now that Indians are settling in NZ? What of Shakespeare and his caricatures of the Welsh, the Irish and Scots?

    More important, will the Education Department consider the rise in Maori culture schools to be racist? Will it consider the one-sided views being taught on environmentalism and on NZ’s colonial history racist? Perhaps it’s up to us to complain to the Education Department about this. But will the Education Department lefties investigate? When pigs fly!

    The sad thing is there is no political party in NZ which will stand up against such bureaucratic PC totalitarianism. While National and ACT are to be applauded for their promotion of new charter schools, Nationals’ Minister, Parata, has closed or amalgamated a swathe of schools in Christchurch, but is reinforcing race-based Maori schooling in the city.

    The Department of Education’s persecution of the Steiner school:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/9837998/Inferences-of-racism-rejected-by-school

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  121. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Nosey

    How about discussing capital punishment?

    Should a double convicted murderer be hung?

    http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/energy-budget.html
    Hansen’s team concluded that Earth has absorbed more than half a watt more solar energy per square meter than it let off throughout the six year study period. The calculated value of the imbalance (0.58 watts of excess energy per square meter) is more than twice as much as the reduction in the amount of solar energy supplied to the planet between maximum and minimum solar activity (0.25 watts per square meter).

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  122. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Jack5
    And the parents complaining and withdrawing their children: were they imagining things?

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  123. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    “…..In the US, more males are raped than females. Doubt thats the same here. Our prison system seems… nicer…..”

    So is our millitary. There has been a huge increase in US male millitary personal laying charges of rape against other military ‘men’.

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  124. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    Oh, and a shed load of new bribes entitlement promises, a market close to free fall, a tanking currency and $50 billion in capital outflow, yup, he’s laughing.

    Investors pulled $33 billion out of [Russia] in January and February, and that figure could hit $55 billion by the end of March, according to Russian investment bank Renaissance Capital.

    Russia faces a hefty bill for supporting Crimea. The region currently depends on Ukraine for roughly 70% of its budget, 90% of its water, and most of its energy and food supplies.

    http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/17/news/economy/russia-crimea-sanctions/

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  125. Lucia Maria (2,238 comments) says:

    Jack,

    I used to have my kids in that school, but I pulled them out when I became Catholic due incompatibilities with Anthroposophy, after I delved into a number of Rudolph Steiner’s books. The article says that 14 children and 4 children have left the school – for a school of the small size that I know it is, that is a huge number. Something must have happened.

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  126. chickadee (15 comments) says:

    @ wreck1080
    That is what my Dad said except he used different language lol.
    Lots of people disagree with my complaining. I assume they are all old with freehold homes. We hate Baby Boomers sometimes. My parents generation had free tertiary education and no foreign competition for their first home. Why don’t Baby Boomers think of others for a change. Or do we have to wait until they all die :(

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  127. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    cha

    This writer queries whether Russia may have been drawn into a situation that will be financially crippling. That may have been the US objective all along.

    Ref: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141020/alexander-j-motyl/is-losing-crimea-a-loss

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  128. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    Boom.

    The Kremlin’s fundamental mistake is to have ignored its economic weakness and dependence on Europe. On Monday, March 3, the Russian RTS index plummeted 12 percent, while Gazprom fell by 17 percent, as it will lose its valuable Ukrainian market and perhaps also transit to Europe.

    The ruble fell by 2.5 percent in early trading, and the central bank was forced to raise its policy rate from 5.5 percent to 7.0 percent to impede the run on the ruble. The Russian economy was set to stagnate, but now it is likely to contract.

    With its great economic power, Europe can have a great impact just by applying existing rules more rigorously. By normal standards, many big Russian state companies, notably Gazprom, would be considered organized crime syndicates, and according to current legal standards, European financial institutions should not be allowed to deal with them. To a large extent, the United States has already done so.

    [...]

    Almost half of Russia’s exports go to Europe, and three-quarters of its total exports consist of oil and gas. A quarter of Russia’s exports consist of gas exported to Europe, mostly at excessive prices in dubious contracts. The energy boom is over, and Europe can turn the tables on Russia after the cuts to gas supplies in 2006 and 2009. Europe can replace this gas with liquefied natural gas, gas from Norway, shale gas, and other energy sources. If the European Union were to sanction Russia’s gas supply to Europe, Russia would lose $100 billion (€73 billion), or one-fifth of its export revenues, and the Russian economy would be in rampant crisis.

    http://www.piie.com/publications/opeds/oped.cfm?ResearchID=2581

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  129. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Putin may be popular now, but Russia’s dependence on foreign investment and trade will mean that sooner or later, the economic consequences of his actions will start to bite the poor and middle class. Could be that Russia is headed towards it’s own Orange revolution.

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  130. RightNow (6,780 comments) says:

    Labour faithful in full denial, comments seen at the Herald:

    “Does anyone actually believe this poll? What a load of rubbish.”
    kiwigal

    “It’s simple. Who do they ask in the poll?? How many?? We are totally sure it is completely not representative of the actual situation, given the continued gaffes of the outgoing national party, they have totally stuffed it this time with their china business connections and flag distractions. Are NZer’s totally blind and stupid?”
    PePh -

    “I believe that you commentators have a lot to do with the ratings. How many articles in the last month have been about Labour and how bad they are? Answer that question and the influence you may have, and you will see why these figures are what they are. Same as the last election. Shame on you.”
    Greek

    “Herald DigiPolls always over-represent National’s support. And Herald journalists always support National.
    I see the game plan is the same as last election – paint Labour losing the election as a foregone conclusion. Start early and repeat often.”
    Sarah

    “Many of us don’t buy into the hype and blatant propaganda expressed in this newspaper.
    The polls are not that accurate as they are manipulated.
    I go on what people are saying on a day to day basis, and that to me shows a much more accurate view on how people are feeling about the Govt of the day.
    Where I work, live and socialise shows a huge majority are unhappy with the unsavoury practices of this current Govt, and many are alarmed by the large scale of influence of foreign Governments {China and the US} on our laws and on our politicians.
    I am a swing voter, and I would say that about any Govt blue, red, green or otherwise that was running the country the way this National party are.
    I am not the only one disgusted by what is blatant cronyism and the teetering on the edges of corruption that is rife with this National party.”

    Metal Soprano

    Re Metal Soprano “I am a swing voter” – I guess he swings between Greens, Labour and Mana.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11221484

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  131. Left Right and Centre (2,861 comments) says:

    NZ cultural diversity….

    I used the fact that you can’t spit now without hitting an Asian to my advantage…..

    And asked one of them about ‘shaoxing’ wine and ‘white sesame’ for an ‘Asian lemon chicken’ recipe.

    I heard the correct pronunciation and so I’m instantly better at the word. Goes something like ‘shoushing’ ‘shou’ as is ‘shout’, same for ‘shing’ but with an ‘ing’ instead of an ‘out’ on the end. Reminds me of the noise of knife blades being sharpened. I can’t try it without doing the accent. Ok I can but it’s less fun.

    I knew all those fucking Asians would come in handy for something sooner or later – numerical certainty :)

    BTW – the chicken was damned good. Tasted like a takeaway – oh yeah.

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  132. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    “…..Why don’t Baby Boomers think of others for a change….”

    They have always thought of others as they all had large families – and the mum’s looked after the neighbourhoods also.

    The next generations don’t have as many kids.

    So who’s selfish now newbie? :cool:

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  133. Lucia Maria (2,238 comments) says:

    Ahh, meant to say, “14 children and 4 teachers” in my comment at 11:49am. There’s also an extra comma in there that shouldn’t be there (for the pedants).

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  134. JMS (313 comments) says:

    If they wanted to, the EU and the US could send the Russian economy into a tailspin.

    Because it’s early spring in Europe, any Russian threat to cut gas supplies to the EU in retaliation for sanctions would be of little concern.

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  135. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    “…..Why don’t Baby Boomers think of others for a change….”

    The Baby Boomer age cohort was the first generation to be born after WWII. The first generation to realise that humanity was capable of mass inhumanity. They were the first post modern generation after Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the death camps and holocaust, the dropping of huge bombs on large civilian populations in many cities of Europe. As a generation they have never forgotten that the the world could end in the flash of heat and light.

    And so they have constantly tried to change institutions and culture through the feminist revolution, the anti-war effort, the civil rights movement and so on – to accuse them of not thinking of others, is a falsehood. The Baby Boomers by sheer number have been resource intensive on the planet – but their births were not of their doing – Baby Boomers have spoken out against the injustices that their parents hated, but frequently accepted without question.

    Thinking only of themselves is one accusation you cannot aim at the Boomers.

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  136. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    nasska

    Or part of the plan.

    Another person who has been swept into the mainstream is one of Mr. Prokhanov’s former protégés, Aleksandr G. Dugin, who, in the late 1990s, called for “the blinding dawn of a new Russian Revolution, fascism — borderless as our lands, and red as our blood.”

    Virulently anti-American, Mr. Dugin has urged a “conservative revolution” that combines left-wing economics and right-wing cultural traditionalism. In a 1997 book, he introduced the idea of building a Eurasian empire “constructed on the fundamental principle of the common enemy,” which he identified as Atlanticism, liberal values, and geopolitical control by the United States.

    Building a Eurasian economic bloc, including Ukraine, became a central goal for Mr. Putin upon his return to the presidency. His point man on the project was the economist Sergei Glazyev, an associate of Mr. Prokhanov’s and Mr. Dugin’s.

    In an interview, Mr. Dugin was evasive when asked about his personal contact with Mr. Putin, saying only that he had been “in close contact with the Kremlin, and with those in the Kremlin who make decisions,” for the last 15 years. But he said the president, whom he described as a Henry Kissinger-style “pragmatist,” had embraced a version of his ideology because it served his interests domestically.

    “It is popular, it is populist, it helps to explain all the processes which are going on in the country, and gradually — just by the logic of things, pragmatically, he becomes closer and closer to this ideology, just by the logic of events,” he said. He also offered a more human reason: that Mr. Putin had been stung by Western leaders’ apparent preference for his predecessor, Dmitri A. Medvedev, and then by the antigovernment protests that he believed were backed by the West.

    Though a number of high-ranking officials around Mr. Putin have argued strenuously against this ideological shift, Mr. Dugin said that their influence had been waning steadily, and that the Crimean crisis left them no option but to “be quiet, or gather up their suitcases and leave Russia.”

    “Anti-Americanism has become the main ideology, the main worldview among Russians,” he said. “Now, after Crimea, we have passed the point of no return. There will not be another Medvedev. There will never be another ‘reset,’ ever.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/world/europe/foes-of-america-in-russia-crave-rupture-in-ties.html?

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  137. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “they have constantly tried to change institutions and culture through the feminist revolution, the anti-war effort, the civil rights movement and so on”

    It’s called Cultural Marxism.

    ” to accuse them of not thinking of others, is a falsehood.”

    Depends on your view of Marxists.

    New Left feminism is just Left Wing totalitarianism aimed at women and the family. The “anti-war” movement was just support for Communism in disguise. The Civil Rights movement had noble aims but use ignoble means (the power of the state and the resulting destruction of freedom of association.)

    The Left always claims to “love humanity” but it’s actions and real intentions speak louder than it’s rhetoric.

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  138. David Garrett (6,658 comments) says:

    ..Back to the BMI and Polynesians..When I went to Tonga in 1999 I was astounded to find that Jonah Lomu was just average size up there…But I dont think the BMI has much value even for us whities – I understand that ALL of the All Blacks, whatever their race, are “obese” according to the BMI…

    I wont embarrass her with the actual weight, but according to the BMI my estranged Tongan wife is “grossly obese”…She’s actually a strong fit woman with very little fat…

    Much as it pains me to say it, I think Griff’s comment was somewhat misunderstood…at least on this issue!

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  139. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Yes Shawn, because advocating for peace and fairness for all could only be described as cultural marxism

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  140. Viking2 (11,217 comments) says:

    TCC rejects $18.80 wage

    Great, sanity is beginning to come.

    Tauranga City Councillors shelved a guest speaker’s push to pay a living wage to 51 per cent of council’s staff paid less than $18.80 an hour. – See more at: http://sunlive.co.nz/news/67117-tcc-rejects-1880-wage.html#sthash.xOgy7u7e.dpuf

    http://sunlive.co.nz/news/67117-tcc-rejects-1880-wage.html

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  141. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    “……The first generation to realise that humanity was capable of mass inhumanity….”

    Judith don’t be silly.

    Genghis Khan was bloody efficent – he scared shitloads of people.

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  142. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Yes Shawn, because advocating for peace and fairness for all could only be described as cultural marxism”

    What the Left claims to be advocating for, and what they are really advocating, are often not the same thing.

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  143. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    . Pointing out that the IPCC has a bad track record with regards to it’s predictions (and eco-doomsadayers), and that some members have admitted lying for political reasons, such as the claim that the Himalayas would be submerged by 2035, is simply a statement of fact, not a conspiracy theory.

    Repeating unsubstantiated rumors and gross distortions is a result of you inability to process information due to your mental state of denial

    statement of fact, submerged by 2035 Fuck are you really that stupid that you think any one in science with any credibility would suggest such a thing. You are projecting your religion on science now naoh and the flood :lol: the wingnut god whack. seeps out.

    If you can cite this in any of the ipcc reports I will admit defeat
    http://www.ipcc.ch/

    members :lol:
    Shows you are not even aware of the IPCC and its processes.

    And the reason I insult and ridicule is how else do you talk to such stupid idiots? I have tried rational but you wingnuts arent capable of rational so I must operate on your level. not really the reason for the ridicule its been posted at least twice this week. :lol: you are just to stupid to realise when you are being deliberately manipulated. :lol:

    Global conspiracy of all the worlds scientific organisations to pervert the future of humanity .
    please discuss the organizational structure of you conspiracy and elaborate on those in control shawnlh muppet.
    It isnt the IPCC that is just you trying to avoid reality its all major scientific organisations in the world along with just about every government ngo, and country.

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  144. Ross12 (1,222 comments) says:

    Don’t get too excited about the polls , DC has spoken

    “We’ve got more work to do,” he told reporters on Tuesday.

    “It reflects a particular point in time that is already behind us. We’re in a new phase now.”

    New phase ?? Another Tui Billboard !!!

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  145. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (3,888 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 12:34 pm

    He sure as hell did, but even he did not scare the number of people that the atomic bombs did. The world’s population in 1945 was a hell of a lot bigger than it was when old Genghis did his thing, and even when he did, he didn’t manage to kill them all with one foul swoop, or click of a button.

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  146. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    The Department of Education’s persecution of the Steiner school:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/9837998/Inferences-of-racism-rejected-by-school

    Ugh.

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  147. NoCash (256 comments) says:

    ^ just like the search for MH370 that has entered a new phase and at a loss still…

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  148. rangitoto (212 comments) says:

    From the horrid: “Labour Leader David Cunliffe says support for the National Government will “corrode” over coming months as public discomfort over perceptions of crony capitalism such as the Oravida affair grows.”

    “Corrode”. What a muppet. Is that his Harvard education showing?

    The opposition still haven’t worked out that the pathetic smear attempts aren’t working. I notice wo posted a tweet with a shopped pic showing Cunliffe as comical Ali. Seems appropriate.

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  149. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (458 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 12:30 pm

    Are you pathetic enough to try and imply that all Baby Boomers are Marxists?

    You really are the most desperate of desperate people, aren’t you?

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  150. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    “It reflects a particular point in time that is already behind us. We’re in a new phase now.”

    What – with all the same old deadwood?

    LOL.

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  151. NoCash (256 comments) says:

    I was replying to Ross12… when I post:

    ^ just like the search for MH370 that has entered a new phase and at a loss still…

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  152. dime (9,607 comments) says:

    “Yes Shawn, because advocating for peace and fairness for all could only be described as cultural marxism”

    lol where to start. actually, any point?

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  153. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    ““Labour Leader David Cunliffe says support for the National Government will “corrode” over coming months as public discomfort over perceptions of crony capitalism such as the Oravida affair grows.”

    It is far more likely that what little support for Labour is left will “corrode” as public discomfort over perceptions of secret financial backers makes Cunliffe un-electable.

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  154. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    ….”you are just to stupid to realise when you are being deliberately manipulated. “….

    But not stupid enough to neglect to follow the money & realise that AGW is a made to order crisis for the proponents of a NWO to solve with our money, resources & wellbeing.

    Sorry Griff…..no chocolate fish.

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  155. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (459 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 12:37 pm

    So now all baby boomers are marxist and lefties – wow keep it up Shawn – will the next comment be they are all females too?

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  156. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    “Dark Money” Funds Climate Change Denial Effort
    A Drexel University study finds that a large slice of donations to organizations that deny global warming are funneled through third-party pass-through organizations that conceal the original funder
    Dec 23, 2013 |By Douglas Fischer and The Daily Climate
    Dusk at U.S. Capitol, Washington, D.C.

    A shift to untraceable donations by organizations denying climate change undermines democracy, according to the author of a new study tracking contributions to such groups.
    Wikimedia Commons/Carol M. Highsmith

    The largest, most-consistent money fueling the climate denial movement are a number of well-funded conservative foundations built with so-called “dark money,” or concealed donations, according to an analysis released Friday afternoon.

    The study, by Drexel University environmental sociologist Robert Brulle, is the first academic effort to probe the organizational underpinnings and funding behind the climate denial movement.

    It found that the amount of money flowing through third-party, pass-through foundations like DonorsTrust and Donors Capital, whose funding cannot be traced, has risen dramatically over the past five years.

    In all, 140 foundations funneled $558 million to almost 100 climate denial organizations from 2003 to 2010.

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  157. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Are you pathetic enough to try and imply that all Baby Boomers are Marxists?”

    The BB generation was heavily influenced by Cultural Marxism, probably more than any other since, as the post-war Frankfurt school was in full propaganda mode during that time, especially in schools.

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  158. Chuck Bird (4,728 comments) says:

    What a bloody idiot Cunliffe is. He has a strong dislike and an obsession with Judith Collins. There is no doubt Collins acted unwisely but trying to make a big issue of who paid for a dinner is just stupid and petty. For many of Cunliffe’s supporters going to a expensive restaurant is something special but it is not for senior politicians. Contrast this to Labour’s attitude towards Len Brown where there was a real conflict of interest.

    Cunliffe on poll result: ‘We’ve got more work to do’

    Meanwhile, Ms Collins faced further questions about the Oravida affair this morning, particularly around the October dinner in Beijing which she, along with her senior advisor Margaret Malcolm, “close friends” Stone Shi and Julia Xu from dairy and seafood export company Oravida, and a senior Chinese border control official attended.

    She said she did not know who paid for the meal.

    “I’ve already said I didn’t pay for it. Margaret Malcolm didn’t pay for it the taxpayer didn’t. I don’t know who did and I haven’t asked.”

    Asked whether the fact that it appeared either Oravida or the Chinese official paid for dinner added to perceptions of a conflict of interest, Ms Collins, said: “actually it doesn’t”, before walking away from reporters.

    The fact Ms Collins walked away from questions about the dinner was “not a good look at all”, Mr Cunliffe said.

    “She should come clean. Who paid for the dinner? Who was the Chinese official? Why did the ambassador not attend? Those are what New Zealanders want to know… they want to know how deep the conflict of interest goes.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11221828

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  159. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “It reflects a particular point in time that is already behind us. We’re in a new phase now.”

    To be fair Cunliffe is right. They have moved from the Fail phase to the Epic Fail phase, :)

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  160. All_on_Red (1,464 comments) says:

    Did Cunliffe attend his wifes, Christmas function at the Law Firm and who paid? We have a right to know!

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  161. David Garrett (6,658 comments) says:

    I must say I saw that clip of Cunners….it shows his years of experience at obfuscation and answering a different question from the one asked…but not much else…

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  162. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (460 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 12:56 pm

    As I said – desperate! :)

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  163. mandk (849 comments) says:

    Judith @ 12.20
    The baby boomers also encouraged us to dive into the cesspit of moral relativism :-)

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  164. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Just the facts Judith. Desperate would be pretending that your visceral hatred of John Key is shared by large numbers of other people.

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  165. b1gdaddynz (279 comments) says:

    According to BMI most professional athletes are obese and even Christian Cullen at 1.8M and 85-90Kg is Obese; clearly not the best tool for measuring healthy weight.

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  166. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Well mandk, let’s hear it for moral relativism.

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  167. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Morality is relative, mandk. That’s a fact, not a lifestyle choice.

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  168. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “The baby boomers also encouraged us to dive into the cesspit of moral relativism”

    To be fair to the BB’s, and contra Judith’s claim, not all BB’ers joined the New Left. In the US quite a lot ended up on the Right and voted strongly for Reagan.

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  169. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Morality is relative, mandk. That’s a fact, not a lifestyle choice.”

    An absolute fact or a relative fact? ;)

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  170. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    An absolute fact or a relative fact?

    Hah. An absolute fact. Truth is not relative.

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  171. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Well mandk, let’s hear it for moral relativism.”

    I agree. For a start, why do we keep saying that rapists, child abusers and serial killers are bad? It’s all relative you know! :)

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  172. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    I agree. For a start, why do we keep saying that rapists, child abusers and serial killers are bad? It’s all relative you know! :)

    Morality being relative doesn’t mean that morality doesn’t exist.

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  173. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Truth is not relative.”

    Then neither is morality, for exactly the same reason.

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  174. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Depends on definitions Shawn. Some on this thread appeared to think it okay for a 21-year-old to have sex with a 13-year-old. Others would call that child abuse or rape.

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  175. mandk (849 comments) says:

    @ Ryan Sproull,
    How can you possibly claim something as a fact, when everything is relative?

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  176. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    We’re charging right into some pretty deep philosophical territory here folks. Buckle up and hold on tight.

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  177. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Morality being relative doesn’t mean that morality doesn’t exist.”

    Yes it does. If it’s just relative then it’s just opinion, not morality.

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  178. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    The “anti-war” movement was just support for Communism in disguise.

    Golly, growing up in a house where young men I never knew looked down on me, where my mother cried on the birthday of the remaining twin, the birthday my aunt tried for 70 years to ignore and my father telling me tales about older brothers who never came home – I had no idea I was living with communists.
    /

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  179. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “How can you possibly claim something as a fact, when everything is relative?”

    It;s called being conveniently selective.

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  180. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ mandk (596 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 1:03 pm

    They certainly did!

    @ Shawn

    Facts as you say Shawn. The results of the last election showed that less that 50% of the votes went to people other than John Key’s party – therefore your claim is not supported by the data. The ‘larger’ number of people did not support him.

    You have tried, (and I see are now back tracking a bit) to imply that the entire BB cohort was marxist and leftist – the political results simply do not support your thesis buddy. The ‘facts’ are agin ya!

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  181. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    To be fair I suspect Ryan is talking about cultural relativity and differing cultural understandings of morality. However there is a hidden assumption behind that. Anyone care to guess?

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  182. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “You have tried, (and I see are now back tracking a bit) to imply that the entire BB cohort was marxist and leftist”

    Actually no, I was specifically speaking about the various movements you were talking about. But I’m happy to admit that my choice of words did not make that clear. However, it is true that the BB generation was heavily influenced by the Frankfurt School.

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  183. nickb (3,673 comments) says:

    I might be missing something but I don’t see how teaching someone about a racist doctrine is teaching racism.

    Does that mean that all references to Nazi Germany must be erased from the school curriculum?

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  184. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    How can you possibly claim something as a fact, when everything is relative?

    I didn’t say that everything was relative. I said that morality is relative.

    It;s called being conveniently selective.

    Shawn, is it true or false that oysters taste good?

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  185. Tauhei Notts (1,633 comments) says:

    Somebody tell me if I am getting this wrong.
    Judith Collins, her husband and his colleagues had a slap up feed with a senior Chinese border control official.
    Quite possibly the Chow picked up the tab. They are very generous in that manner as I have personally seen in the past.
    And the Chinese really like good food and good company. Good company does not make a scene of working out who picked up the tab. To do so is to be totally ungracious. As ungracious as a Labour Party person.
    I still think this is all a bad tempered piece by the Labour apparatchiks in the civil service who are pissed off that they could never ever get their minister access to such a high ranking official like Judith’s hubby could. With people like Judith Collins and her spouse, maybe we do not need so many very highly paid Sir Humphrey’s in Wellington.

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  186. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Shawn, is it true or false that oysters taste good?”

    Taste and morality are not the same thing.

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  187. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Taste and morality are not the same thing.

    Neither are truth and morality. I’m “conveniently selective” when I treat different things differently – and when you do it, you are…?

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  188. Tauhei Notts (1,633 comments) says:

    Ryan at 1,24 said that morality is relative.
    Reminds me of the Maori horse trainer, who had just trained several very good horses. He said;
    “Success is relative. The more success I have, the more relatives I’ve got.”

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  189. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Shawn: Murder, good or bad?

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  190. dime (9,607 comments) says:

    When was BMI last updated?

    I think im meant to be about 83kg lol if have to chop off a leg.

    How many people were lifting weights when BMI was last updated?

    What was the size of say the All Blacks centre back then? 85kg? as opposed to 100 now?

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  191. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Neither are truth and morality”

    Yes, they really are Ryan. That is the flaw in your argument. Your treating two things differently that cannot be separated.

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  192. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Shawn: Murder, good or bad?”

    Bad obviously. Your point is….?

    Oh, and define murder.

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  193. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Yes, they really are Ryan. That is the flaw in your argument. Your treating two things differently that cannot be separated.

    If truth and morality are the same thing, perhaps you can tell me, is the following statement good or evil?

    1+1=2.

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  194. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ shawn

    So who decides what is ‘moral’ Shawn? And who gets to decide the decider?

    I’m sure you would find many things that the vast majority of kiwis think are okay, as immoral, due to your religious beliefs – but who is right – the majority or the religious ?

    If it is the religious, then in what context – is it the country in which they dwell, their own homes, or the entire world, and given that, what then makes one religions morality, more acceptable than another … and so on?

    Or in other words…

    Who has the right to decide and claim that oysters taste good?

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  195. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Well Shawn, if murder is bad then we need to consider the related question – what is murder? Is late-term abortion murder, for example? Or execution of a criminal?

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  196. Sofia (826 comments) says:

    Fonterra’s chairman John Wilson says Government ministers must not be put off visiting New Zealand companies or meeting Chinese officials in China by the controversy over Justice Minister Judith Collins meetings with Oravida.
    Mr Wilson is in Beijing for a visit by Prime Minister John Key, who will arrive today to front up to China’s leaders, China’s state media and Fonterra’s clients over the false contamination scare last August.

    The Chinese aren’t silly – they are likely to want to see John Key drink some.

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  197. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Well Shawn, if murder is bad then we need to consider the related question – what is murder? Is late-term abortion murder, for example? Or execution of a criminal?

    Mikenmild, are you arguing that morality is relative or that morality is complicated? I suspect Shawn wouldn’t disagree that it is complicated, but just because it’s complicated, doesn’t mean it’s relative.

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  198. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    It’s relative, and complicated. But my point was the definitions of what is moral change all the time.

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  199. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “If truth and morality are the same thing”

    Ahh, but I didn’t say they were the same thing, I said they were inseparable. Try again.

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  200. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Long live the Queen: http://www.spectator.co.uk/australia/australia-features/9153931/more-british-than-britain/

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  201. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “I suspect Shawn wouldn’t disagree that it is complicated,”

    Not at all. It can at times be very complicated, and not always easy to discern.

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  202. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Parris makes a realistic proposition: http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/matthew-parris/9151671/leave-ukraine-to-the-russians/

    I write this as one who has travelled in Ukraine, loved the country and seen that its people (though poor) are talented and energetic. Any reference I make to basket cases refers to the Ukrainian state, not the country’s human resources.

    What we say we want is for Russia to withdraw from Crimea and turn away from the rest of the country too, which we hope to take under the West’s wing. There follow three good reasons why such an outcome, should we get it, might not be what we need.

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  203. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “So who decides what is ‘moral’ Shawn? And who gets to decide the decider?”

    Judith that is the most important question you will ever ask during your lifetime. Keep asking it.

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  204. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “But my point was the definitions of what is moral change all the time.”

    To some degree yes, but not as much as you might think.

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  205. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    Wally Bruhl would’ve been great company.

    http://capegazette.villagesoup.com/p/walter-george-bruhl-jr-dupont-co-retiree/1139838

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  206. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    ….”“So who decides what is ‘moral’ Shawn? And who gets to decide the decider?””….

    The Godnutters?

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  207. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Ahh, but I didn’t say they were the same thing, I said they were inseparable. Try again.

    Okay. Well, that’s just another way of you repeating your assertion that morality is absolute. That is not logically possible.

    I assume with your constant references to God, you believe that God’s existence or decrees make morality absolute?

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  208. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “That is not logically possible.”

    Why?

    “I assume with your constant references to God, you believe that God’s existence or decrees make morality absolute?”

    I’m not sure I have made constant references to God on this blog, but yes.

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  209. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (477 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 1:40 pm
    “So who decides what is ‘moral’ Shawn? And who gets to decide the decider?”

    Judith that is the most important question you will ever ask during your lifetime. Keep asking it.

    ;-) couldn’t answer the question aye? Or just didn’t want to, because of what the answer reveals?

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  210. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Even if the existence of a supernatural being made morality absolute, we do not have any examples of religions applying such morality very consistently.

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  211. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “couldn’t answer the question aye? Or just didn’t want to, because of what the answer reveals?”

    Actually I just did, and happily. It’s hardly a secret that I’m Christian. But my point was that it’s an important question to ask.

    mm,

    “Even if the existence of a supernatural being made morality absolute, we do not have any examples of religions applying such morality very consistently.”

    True.

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  212. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    “That is not logically possible.”

    Why?

    The short answer is that, when interrogated, all moral statements rely on a prior moral statement for their intelligibility and meaning. I’ll try to explain.

    “I assume with your constant references to God, you believe that God’s existence or decrees make morality absolute?”

    I’m not sure I have made constant references to God on this blog, but yes.

    I just mean in this thread, not in general. (At 1.20 and 1.40.)

    Okay, so give me an example of a moral statement that is absolutely true. “Doing X is good” or “Doing X is evil”.

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  213. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Even if the existence of a supernatural being made morality absolute, we do not have any examples of religions applying such morality very consistently.

    The existence of a supernatural being can no more make morality absolute than it can make circles square.

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  214. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “The short answer is that, when interrogated, all moral statements rely on a prior moral statement for their intelligibility and meaning.”

    Of course, that’s my point, though I would change “moral statement” to Transcedent Signifier.

    “Okay, so give me an example of a moral statement that is absolutely true. “Doing X is good” or “Doing X is evil”.”

    Giving to the poor is good. Stealing from the poor is bad.

    “The existence of a supernatural being can no more make morality absolute than it can make circles square.”

    Youv’e totally lost me there. Clarification please.

    And what is your definition of morality?

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  215. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Giving to the poor is good. Stealing from the poor is bad.

    Okay. I’m assuming that you agree that “giving to the poor is good” is another way of saying “you should give to the poor”. (If not, my apologies and please explain the difference.)

    Why should I give to the poor?

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  216. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The church and religion have demonstrably the same lack morals as the rest of us.

    As we have frequently been reminded by its adherents.
    man created god in his own image.

    As such it has no application in the discussion on morals.
    Except for those who are too thick to think rationally.

    muppet and god. that figures one delusion exposes a propensity for more.

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  217. wreck1080 (3,784 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9840383/Renas-lost-logs-still-cost-owner

    “A timber exporter which lost a shipment on the doomed Rena has been told by the High Court it must still pay its $100,000 freight bill.”

    This is a bullshit decision that only lawyers could engineer. Sure, you could say that maybe they should have insurance but the logic of this decision seems unjust.

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  218. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Why should I give to the poor?”

    Love/Agape. Love your neighbor as yourself.

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  219. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “The church and religion have demonstrably the same lack morals as the rest of us.”

    Of course. All human beings are fucked up.

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  220. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    “The existence of a supernatural being can no more make morality absolute than it can make circles square.”

    Youv’e totally lost me there. Clarification please.

    I just mean that the existence or non-existence of God has no bearing on whether or not morality is relative, because the relative nature of morality is inherent in what we mean by “morality”.

    And what is your definition of morality?

    The evaluation of actions as desirable (good) or undesirable (evil) without reference to a target outcome. (And often in conflict with evaluations of actions as desirable or undesirable with reference to a target outcome.)

    For example, “You should brush your teeth” is not a moral statement, because it’s actually “If you want to keep your teeth, you should brush your teeth.”

    “You should not steal” is a moral statement, because there’s no target outcome – it’s just good to not steal. The moment you add a target outcome – “If you don’t want to go to jail, you should not steal” – it stops being a moral statement.

    Does that make sense?

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  221. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Love/Agape. Love your neighbor as yourself.

    Okay, so giving to the poor is good because it’s loving my neighbour as myself.

    Why should I love my neighbour as myself?

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  222. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Ryan Sproull (6,369 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 2:02 pm

    There is an argument that giving to the poor is not always good. The old saying regarding teaching a person to fish rather than give them a feed of fish being an example. Just as stealing from the poor is not always bad, depending on what is being ‘taken’.

    Morality is relative, and is determinable by the context in which it is applied.

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  223. David Garrett (6,658 comments) says:

    Along with GD every day we ought to have a “Religion and God” thread…there those who are interested in such high minded matters may joust and discuss to their hearts content…while we lesser mortals debate “general” matters of the day…

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  224. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Give to the poor
    the poor take and fail to provide for them self
    Some not poor will become poor to take advantage of the giving
    net result give to poor and create more poor to give to.
    creating poor persons is a negative
    Hence
    giving to the poor is bad.
    it is your personal warmfuzzys that giving strokes not society as a whole.

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  225. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “The evaluation of actions as desirable (good) or undesirable (evil) without reference to a target outcome. “You should not steal” is a moral statement, because there’s no target outcome – it’s just good to not steal. The moment you add a target outcome – “If you don’t want to go to jail, you should not steal” – it stops being a moral statement.

    Agreed. But then that does not take God out of the equation, quite the opposite. If something is good or evil regardless of outcome, then good and evil (morality) is absolute.

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  226. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Alas it has been tried more than once DG
    a little like the bainities and my own obsession it sooner or later returns to GD

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  227. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    There is an argument that giving to the poor is not always good. The old saying regarding teaching a person to fish rather than give them a feed of fish being an example. Just as stealing from the poor is not always bad, depending on what is being ‘taken’.

    Morality is relative, and is determinable by the context in which it is applied.

    Those are two different statements, Judith. The application of morality to differing contexts of differing situations doesn’t make it relative.

    For example, in your suggestion here, teaching a person to fish would be better than giving them a fish, but that does not undermine Shawn’s idea of absolute morality, because – as he’s just elucidated – the reason giving to the poor is good is because it’s loving your neighbour as yourself, and teaching a person to fish may be more loving than giving them a fish.

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  228. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “the poor take and fail to provide for them self
    Some not poor will become poor to take advantage of the giving
    net result give to poor and create more poor to give to.”

    Are a lot of people giving up their wealth, moving to Africa and starving themselves and their children in order to receive food from Oxfam?

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  229. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    God created the world
    god is good
    good can not exist with out evil
    therefore god created evil.

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  230. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “good can not exist with out evil”

    Dualism. That’s a theological assumption

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  231. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,811 comments) says:

    Imp @ 9.58

    And if Hitler had just produced a few more V2s and managed to get the atom bomb first, World war 2 could have been anybody’s.

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  232. thedavincimode (6,578 comments) says:

    grieffith

    That sums up the first 4,000 years in the earth’s history.

    Can you do the last 2,000 years with equal brevity?

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  233. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Agreed. But then that does not take God out of the equation, quite the opposite. If something is good or evil regardless of outcome, then good and evil (morality) is absolute.

    Not necessarily.

    But first, why should I love my neighbour as myself?

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  234. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ ryan

    I was meaning that it was relative to the particular context in which it occurs.

    Regarding loving your neighbour as yourself. Is that not just a cop out? Especially when it requires a moral judgment. e.g. the villagers must wear clothes because we do, they need to hide their naked bodies, because we do. It is immoral to be naked. We give them clothes to demonstrate we love them as we love ourselves – but the villagers have existed for centuries without them, and were quite happy! Suddenly they face ‘immorality’.

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  235. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    What if the followers of the religion of peace have it?

    It’s better to be safe than sorry: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/17/missing-jet-iranian-threats-prompt-israel-to-tighten-air-security/

    Top Israeli defense officials have hurriedly put in place a confidential list of secret security measures in light of the baffling disappearance of a Malaysia Airlines jumbo jet that experts fear could become a weapon of mass destruction if in the wrong hands.

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  236. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    No but the proportion of persons on our welfare system have steadily grown since its inception.
    despite our living standards increasing at the same time
    Solo mothers being the classic give and create misery.

    And the african aid thing
    its even worse give food to the staving allowing them to breed so the expanded next generation can stave to death.
    The only things we should give to africa is eduction and birth control.
    The tools to improve their lot not the daily needs of life.

    Give a poor family a goat and watch it destroy the ecology robing the poor of a future.

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  237. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    @griff: are you also against farming? Cows, sheep, goats?
    Of course, you must be a vegetarian like the crim and bludger Ure.

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  238. stephieboy (2,449 comments) says:

    Manolo, the Pilots of 370 are followers of your religion of peace but I wouldn’t get to worked up about it.
    After all its your Fox news your dealing with,

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/01/27/50-signs-watch-much-fox-news/

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  239. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    griffith, does your advocacy of not giving the poor food or health care extend to the poor of our own society or just the poor of those of another society?

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  240. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    christian church drives humanity into a long period of decline untill rational thought and the age of reason rejects its superstition and we again examine reality with out the smear of religion blinding our vision.

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  241. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “But first, why should I love my neighbour as myself?”

    It is your purpose for living in the first place. Loving others is the reason you were created. Love is it’s own reward.

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  242. RightNow (6,780 comments) says:

    “God created the world
    god is good
    good can not exist with out evil
    therefore god created evil.”

    The fallacy there is ‘good can not exist without evil” – there is no logical foundation for that claim.

    However, since Christ died for our sins it would be rude not to.

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  243. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Griffith, the increase in proportion of the population supported by welfare is for five reasons

    1. the greater number of the old supported by super
    2. the dependence of families on tax credits because wages are not sufficient (related to 3)
    3. the increase in unemployment with the move to global market economics.

    Does the availability of super lead to more welfare – yes people do not work until they die. But if they did see 3, more younger people would be unemployed.

    4. part of the population unable to work until age 65 because of health problems such as diabetes
    5. couples separating

    As for 5 how many more couples separate because there is the DPB than in the past and how many more
    couples separate because we allow no fault divorce and divorce is more accepted.

    As for those who choose a life on the DPB when single (and unemployed and without an education) – see 3

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  244. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “and the age of reason rejects its superstition and we again examine reality with out the smear of religion blinding our vision.”

    And yet according to you we are on the verge of environmental annihilation. After several hundred years of the age of “reason”. If your version of “reason” is so good, why are we destroying the planet? Should not three or four hundred years of the golden age of enlightenment led to a golden age, not planetary ecocide?

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  245. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    As for altruism or not.

    It all began when we were hunter gatherers.

    Someone got sick/injured. Did the group leave them and continue to the next place to find food or slow down to take the person with them.

    Did they think, will we be better off leaving them behind? Or did they think this is one of us and how would we want to be treated. What sort of group was it that they were? And why?

    Was the ethos, it is good that we survive by sacrificing the one? Randian. Or was the ethos that by being a group we make life easier for each of us?

    This takes me back to this question

    griffith, does your advocacy of not giving the poor food or health care extend to the poor of our own society or just the poor of those of another society?

    One group of us or all humanity as us.

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  246. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull (6,373 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 2:10 pm

    The moment you add a target outcome – “If you don’t want to go to jail, you should not steal” – it stops being a moral statement.

    Does that make sense?

    I would say that the only way for ethical reasoning to be rational is that the justification for any moral statement depends on it achieving some specified objective. If there is no “target outcome” then moral statements are arbitrary. “X is good”… why? “Just because”.

    On the other hand “X is good… because God commands it” implies a target outcome (i.e. satisfying Gods will). The target outcome may be questionable and involve assumptions of things which may not exist, but at least there is some sort of rationalization that can be evaluated.

    I think you need to explain more clearly how one finds something “desireable” or not without reference to a target outcome. I think you will find in 99 cases out of 100 that when we contemplate ethical behaviour we are inherently evaluating outcomes and whether we desire those outcomes or not. To desire without contemplating the outcome seems to describe a mindless person acting on a whim. Strange definition of “morality”.

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  247. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Eco-Doomsday aside, we do have massive environmental problems. The irony is that the entire modernist project that created the industrial revolution and thus our environmental problems, was founded on the very same “enlightenment reason” Griff celebrates.

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  248. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    So how do you define good if there is no evil?
    meaningless it is your view of god good bad and has no reality

    Life’s reason
    continuation of its genetic material.

    all other morals are your human vanity and have no reality

    J H Crist was executed for resisting Rome

    A.D. 70 Titus Destroys Jerusalem

    All those who died in this fight against Rome also give there lives for the same thing the bastard carpenter of Bethlehem did

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  249. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    griff, are we all humanity only in dealing with global warming, but not in the matter of preventing others dying from famine and disease?

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  250. edhunter (507 comments) says:

    Spock]: “Interesting. You Earth people glorify organized violence for 40 centuries, but you imprison those who employ it privately.”
    [Dr. McCoy]: “And, of course, your people found an answer?”
    [Spock]: “We disposed of emotion, Doctor. Where there is no emotion, there is no motive for violence.”

    &

    [Spock]: “Has it occurred to you that there is a certain inefficiency in constantly questioning me on things you’ve already made up your mind about?”
    [Captain Kirk]: “It gives me emotional security.”

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  251. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    SPC

    ….”Did they think, will we be better off leaving them behind?”…..

    The answer lies in the incredibly long lead in time for a human to grow from babyhood to a useful member of society. A group that abandoned sick or injured who would eventually recover would be weakened until that person was replaced….probably twenty plus years.

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  252. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “So how do you define good if there is no evil?”

    Be not defining good in relation to evil, but in relation to the One who is eternally good. Evil is not a thing, it is only the absence of good.

    “J H Crist was executed for resisting Rome”

    In fact He was executed for resisting the Pharisees. Rome could not have cared less about Jesus, and literally washed their hands of the issue.

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  253. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    But it is the unenlightened such as you with your anti science religion of climate change denial and your libertarian fetish of anarchy for the rich that is stopping any movement towards a resolution of this problem.

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  254. Jack5 (4,779 comments) says:

    Milkenmild (11.41) and Lucia (12.05 and 11.49) say the fact that a number of pupils and teachers have left the Steiner school in question (my 11.32 post) suggests that something must have happened, though Lucia indicates that in her family’s case it was because she became Catholic and she wasn’t happy with founder-Steiner’s spiritualist writings.

    Perhaps these pupils and or teachers were those who made complaints to the Ministry of Education. The Ministry’s response, as reported (and linked to in my 11.32 post) suggests that the complaints were not accepted BUT that the Ministry is making the school get on the PC bandwagon when it comes to the Treaty of Waitangi.

    From the explanation of the Steiner (a.k.a. Waldorf) teaching methods on Wikipedia I can understand why a Steiner school would appeal to Leftist alternative lifestylers and generally politically correct parents. Perhaps they were then disappointed that this wasn’t accompanied by the standard brainwashing on PC issues such as the Treaty of Waitangi.

    Here’s an extract from Wikipedia giving an idea of the Steiner teaching system:

    Waldorf pedagogy distinguishes three broad stages in child development, each lasting approximately seven years. The early years education focuses on providing practical, hands-on activities and environments that encourage creative play. In the elementary school, the emphasis is on developing pupils’ artistic expression and social capacities, fostering both creative and analytical modes of understanding. Secondary education focuses on developing critical understanding and fostering idealism. Throughout, the approach stresses the role of the imagination in learning and places a strong value on integrating academic, practical and artistic pursuits.

    The educational philosophy’s overarching goal is to develop free, morally responsible, and integrated individuals equipped with a high degree of social competence. Teachers generally use formative (qualitative) rather than summative (quantitative) assessment methods, particularly in the pre-adolescent years. The schools have a high degree of autonomy to decide how best to construct their curricula and govern themselves.

    Whatever, it seems to be that the Treaty issue was about all the Ministry could find wrong with the school in question.

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  255. stephieboy (2,449 comments) says:

    Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God.

    Blaise Pascal

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  256. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Griff has returned to KB more irrational and wackier than ever.
    The person who let him escape, the one who left the asylum’s door open, ought to be another Greenie. :-)

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  257. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    The entree.

    Russia has deployed a number of fighter and airborne early warning (AEW) platforms near to Ukraine in response to US and NATO aircraft movements in Eastern Europe, state media reported.

    The Russian Air Force (Voyenno-Vozdushnye Sily – VVS) sent six Sukhoi Su-27 ‘Flanker’ fighters and three unidentified transport aircraft to Belarus on 13 March, RIA Novosti reported. This was followed two days later by the deployment of a Beriev A-50 ‘Mainstay’ AEW platform to Baranovichi Air Base in Belarus.

    http://www.janes.com/article/35421/russia-deploys-combat-aircraft-to-belarus

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  258. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “your anti science religion of climate change”

    I’ve already said I agree with climate change. I have only questioned the the extremes of some of the claims and the political motivations for them.

    “your libertarian fetish of anarchy for the rich that is stopping any movement towards a resolution of this problem.”

    Yes, their are so many of us Anarcho-Monarchists! We are so numerous and all powerful we are stopping the UN from doing anything. :)

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  259. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    nasska, there is still the matter of whether the group is limited to the group determining on an insurance basis the value of the individual to the group and the cost of providing for that individual before they are useful to the group.

    Does the group decide to “carry the individual” with them even when there is no net value to the group or not.

    It would be cost efficient for local adults not to have children but import replacement labour when we retired. But what sort of group society would it be?

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  260. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    nasska (9,182 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 2:54 pm

    SPC

    ….”Did they think, will we be better off leaving them behind?”…..

    The answer lies in the incredibly long lead in time for a human to grow from babyhood to a useful member of society. A group that abandoned sick or injured who would eventually recover would be weakened until that person was replaced….probably twenty plus years.

    Implicit here is that people are better off in groups, which is why humans are evolved to care about the group/tribe/clan while sociopathy is an aberration.

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  261. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Jack5
    It might be a question of how much of the educational method is being deployed versus how much of the underlying Steiner woo.

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  262. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Pharisees

    Jesus was a pharisees
    or at least his philosophy was
    when you take the bible as history you also take on the distortions created by the roman catholic church.
    Have you read enough jewish authors on this period to truly understand early christian history?
    No your world view is distorted by you irrational faith.

    “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

    to you it means pay your tax like a good citizen.

    2000 years of catholic distortions.

    To jesuses audience it was: as god gave the holy lands to the jews nothing in the holy land can be claimed by rome.

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  263. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Jesus was a pharisees
    or at least his philosophy was”

    It had some similarities, but also some big differences.

    “when you take the bible as history you also take on the distortions created by the roman catholic church.”

    The RC did not create the Bible.

    ““Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

    to you it means pay your tax like a good citizen.”

    No, I have never taken it that way at all. But then I have been studying Christian history and theology for five years now.

    “To jesuses audience it was: as god gave the holy lands to the jews nothing in the holy land can be claimed by rome.”

    Yes, I already new that.

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  264. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    I think I may have managed to stump Ryan. He’s gone strangely silent.

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  265. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, he asked why someone should love one’s neighbour as oneself – no one has answered him. But we have moved on to the group and the individual – from the hunter gather past to the present, to the issue of how the individual is advantaged by being in one.

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  266. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    SPC

    At a guess the decision to carry or abandon would have been made on the basis of the individual’s worth to the group. Eventually the practise would have become part of the mores of that society.

    Empathy is now instilled into us as part of our culture but I would hesitate to call it a human trait.

    ….”It would be cost efficient for local adults not to have children but import replacement labour when we retired”….

    The low birth rate in (for instance) Singapore & Japan is causing that to happen now.

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  267. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    ….”I think I may have managed to stump Ryan”….

    Don’t confuse boring the man shitless from religionutter tripe with stumping him. :)

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  268. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Has one news bulletin passed on Newstalkzb today without “Tojo” Cunliffe getting near lead position trying to gain traction?
    This is getting over the effen top, and they even allow him to lie and threaten (in the case of Collins). For God’s sake advertisers, don’t support this vile pro-Labour outlet.
    When the leader of a once major party says he is unloading more dirt on a politician, it speaks volumes as to the quality of this inferior being. No wonder he has slumped to the lowest point of any party leader in the polls as preferred PM.
    Very interested also, to see what “Tojo” is doing on Anzac Day, having stated he wants to see the RSA movement disestablished, and would preferred to have sacrificed Allied lives instead of dropping the bombs. This guy that misleads people with false CVs, claims of voluntary work, and promises, is a loser, and should be treated somewhat like Lecher Brown.

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  269. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, he asked why someone should love one’s neighbour as oneself – no one has answered him.”

    Look above again. I did answer him.

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  270. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    It is your purpose for living in the first place. Loving others is the reason you were created.

    Okay, so giving to the poor is good because it’s loving my neighbour as myself. Loving my neighbour as myself is good because it’s what I was created for.

    Why should I do what I was created for?

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  271. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    I think I may have managed to stump Ryan. He’s gone strangely silent.

    Apologies – was pulled into a meeting.

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  272. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Long live the Queen

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2004/10/06/stealing-diego-garcia/

    There are times when one tragedy, one crime tells us how a whole system works behind its democratic facade and helps us to understand how much of the world is run for the benefit of the powerful and how governments lie.

    To get rid of the population, the Foreign Office invented the fiction that the islanders were merely transient contract workers who could be “returned” to Mauritius, 1,000 miles away.

    Under the heading, “Maintaining the fiction”, another official urges his colleagues to reclassify the islanders as “a floating population” and to “make up the rules as we go along”.

    In the first months of their exile, as they fought to survive, suicides and child deaths were common. Lizette lost two children. “The doctor said he cannot treat sadness,” she recalls.

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  273. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “But we have moved on to the group and the individual – from the hunter gather past to the present”

    I’m fine with evolution as a mechanism, but evolution as a total answer just raises more questions than it, well, answers.

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  274. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (492 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 2:57 pm

    Be not defining good in relation to evil, but in relation to the One who is eternally good. Evil is not a thing, it is only the absence of good.

    “The One”? Jet Li? or Neo? :)

    Anyway, you’ve just said good is not defined in relation to evil, then said evil is the absence of good, which implies a connection or relation between the two concepts: i.e. that they are opposites.

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  275. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Why should I do what I was created for?

    Natural law.

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  276. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (494 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 3:25 pm

    I’m fine with evolution as a mechanism, but evolution as a total answer just raises more questions than it, well, answers.

    O the irony. :)

    I suppose no questions are raised if one is not permitted to question…

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  277. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The RC did not create the Bible.
    :lol:

    no but they decided its contents and suppressed any thing that did not agree with their world view.

    Ie gospel according to mary the earliest authentic christian words we have.http://gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

    name the differences between jesus and the pharisees?

    it is in the writings paul a man who never meet jesus that is any difference.

    the golden rule predates christ the entire contents of his teaching

    jesus words as discernible thought the distortions of Catholicism

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  278. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Natural law.

    (For Uglytruth, as Shawn may have a different answer.)

    So giving to the poor is good because it’s loving my neighbour as myself. Loving my neighbour is good because it’s what I was created for. Doing what I was created for is good because it’s acting in accordance with natural law.

    Why should I act in accordance with natural law?

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  279. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Why should I act in accordance with natural law?

    Because the alternative leads to death.

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  280. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Has natural law got anything to do with Alfred the Great?

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  281. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, you said “If something is good or evil regardless of outcome, then good and evil (morality) is absolute.”

    His reply was “not necessarily”.

    Sure a good act can have perverse outcomes. One might choose to save the life of someone who then kills someone. But not taking life is not an absolute. If one has knowledge that the person was intent on killing then taking their life (not saving/sparing it) was in defence of life.

    A man might spare someone suffering, but because this involved ending the suffering by ending their life they went to prison for it. It was a good act for the person spared the suffering but seen as wrong by wider society because it might lead to the devaluing of the sanctity of life.

    Society weighs the relative merits of the two principles – sparing people from suffering and the sanctity of life.

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  282. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Why should I do what I was created for?”

    To not do so is spiritual death. You cannot know the joy, passion, power, life, light and love that comes from living from your true center, from loving others. A life without love is not worth living.

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  283. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull (6,376 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 3:27 pm

    Why should I act in accordance with natural law?

    “Should” implies a choice between alternatives. Prove that your actions are capable of alternatives rather than a foregone conclusion fated by the cumulative effect of all the environmental forces that affect the atoms/molecules/cells in your body over time.

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  284. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    To not do so is spiritual death. You cannot know the joy, passion, power, life, light and love that comes from living from your true center, from loving others. A life without love is not worth living.

    So…

    Giving to the poor is good because it’s loving my neighbour as myself.

    Loving my neighbour as myself is good because it’s what I was created for.

    Doing what I was created for is good because doing otherwise would prevent me from experiencing joy, passion, power, life, light and love.

    Why should I do things that bring me joy, passion, power, life, light and love?

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  285. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    “Should” implies a choice between alternatives. Prove that your actions are capable of alternatives rather than a foregone conclusion fated by the cumulative effect of all the environmental forces that affect the atoms/molecules/cells in your body over time.

    Choices are made, for reasons, and that is the space where “should” has meaning. Materialistic determinism does not change that. It may be true that I could not have chosen otherwise, but I still chose, for reasons, and morality joins the causal chain there.

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  286. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Preferred PM:

    - John Key 66.5% (up 4.6)

    666

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  287. ex-golfer (151 comments) says:

    Hey Ian G Mackinnon.
    Is there anywhere left that you are happy to advertise your business?
    So far you suggest boycotting Fairfax, the Herald, both TV networks, RadioLive, National Radio and Newstalk ZB.
    Who is ok? :)

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  288. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Why should I do things that bring me joy, passion, power, life, light and love?”

    Would you honestly prefer the opposite?

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  289. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Would you honestly prefer the opposite?

    No, it sounds like a desirable outcome to me.

    Are you saying there is no justification for doing things that bring joy, passion, etc? It’s just a fact that I want those things, and therefore I should act in ways that provide them to me?

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  290. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Cannot wait till the time arises when Judith Collins turns tables on the “Fat Fairy” from Wellington Central. This fat weirdo is becoming a boring piece of flotsam, and would be better employed entertaining his woofter mates in the rainbow room.

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  291. Jacob Cohen (44 comments) says:

    David Garrett – Along with GD every day we ought to have a “Religion and God” thread…there those who are interested in such high minded matters may joust and discuss to their hearts content…while we lesser mortals debate “general” matters of the day…

    David, this has been proposed several times, and in years past has been tried at least once and failed miserably.
    – failed largely in that, removed from General Debate, the religious krap such as this current exchange, was removed from a perceived captive audience and died a natural death.
    But it is to be tolerated [in as much as you scroll past it] just as the cuckoo Penny Bright from time to time comes and shits in this General Debate nest, because it is her purpose in life to do so.
    I would estimate this comment is worth about 15 – 18 thumbs down.

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  292. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    SPC,

    “Sure a good act can have perverse outcomes.”

    Yes. The nature of the world we live in means that is sometimes true. But the original act is still good, still a mitzvah as the Jews say. Part of the problem is that we are finite, and corrupted, and so not being able to discern all the possible outcomes of an action means we cannot always know for sure. But, not acting out of love/agape (which is what I mean by good) on a consistent basis would most certainly lead lead to far more evil.

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  293. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth,

    What is natural law? Is it the way of life? What is the way of life? Is it natural law?

    Who decides what natural law is?

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  294. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    David, this has been proposed several times, and in years past has been tried at least once and failed miserably.

    I didn’t think it failed. I thought it was great.

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  295. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull (6,378 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 3:36 pm

    Choices are made, for reasons, and that is the space where “should” has meaning. Materialistic determinism does not change that. It may be true that I could not have chosen otherwise, but I still chose, for reasons, and morality joins the causal chain there.

    Kinda redundant though since in essence it is the same meaning as saying, for instance, the white ball “chose” the 8 ball to be pocketed. The 8 ball was pocketed “for reasons”… i.e. that the white ball had a certain velocity and pushed the 8 ball in the direction of the pocket etc.

    If materialistic determinism is true then humans are nothing more than a complex collection of billiard balls.

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  296. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Muppets gone all fluffy.

    http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Fluffy

    chick?

    still Muppet is marginally saner than our last student of theology lee001.

    Sorry dtk mustn’t forget the deacon.

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  297. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Who decides what natural law is?

    The Creator. All man does is to pick a description that makes some kind of sense in his world.

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  298. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Are you saying there is no justification for doing things that bring joy, passion, etc? It’s just a fact that I want those things, and therefore I should act in ways that provide them to me?”

    Sorry, I’m not sure what your saying here. But I’ll take a stab. Of course you should act in ways that bring you joy and life and love, and the nature of humanity is that the most powerful way to do that is by bringing joy and love to others.

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  299. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Jacob Cohen

    very cynical

    and a big green

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  300. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth,

    Surely you mean men define what natural law is and claim their authority for this definition is God – they even try and to be convincing when they say they got their definition/knowledge of natural law from God.

    But yes, we all as political citizens have a view of what natural law is reasonable for a pluralistic modern democratic society.

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  301. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Kinda redundant though since in essence it is the same meaning as saying, for instance, the white ball “chose” the 8 ball to be pocketed. The 8 ball was pocketed “for reasons”… i.e. that the white ball had a certain velocity and pushed the 8 ball in the direction of the pocket etc.

    “Spinoza says that if a stone projected through the air had consciousness, it would imagine it was flying of its own will. I add merely that the stone would be right.” – Schopenhauer.

    If materialistic determinism is true then humans are nothing more than a complex collection of billiard balls.

    What do you mean by “nothing more”? Are you comparing humans unfavourably to an imaginary state of affairs that has never been the case?

    I’m quite an extraordinary complex collection of billiard balls, thank you very much. If I wasn’t, I’d be nothing more than some kind of spiritual entity that is somehow occasionally exempt from the laws of physics.

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  302. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Is it a full moon? KB inhabited by wackos?

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  303. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Griff,

    “no but they decided its contents and suppressed any thing that did not agree with their world view.”

    Sorry but no. That is called a pop culture myth. The decision on the canon predates the emergence of the RC. In fact it was settled prior to the fourth century.

    The Davinci Code is not a history book.

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  304. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    That was last night, Manolo, but it doesn’t take too much to get them to come out and play.

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  305. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Surely you mean men define what natural law is and claim their authority for this definition is God

    No, I meant what I said. Men don’t define any law other than the law that they themselves create. Definition is associated with bringing something into existence, description is based on a recognition of something already pre-existent.

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  306. Sofia (826 comments) says:

    WINSTON PETERS AND HIS OWN CONFLICTS OF INTEREST
    Yesterday I wrote about Winston Peters and his parliamentary questions on behalf of his partner • and the firm she worked for at the time.

    I also wrote earlier about Winston Peters and his three visits to the Dotcom Mansion. At the time I also mentioned that there was more to come on this.

    On the three occasions that Winston Peters had admitted visiting the Dotcom Mansion there were many things that were discussed.

    Perhaps the biggest thing though was what Dotcom claims he knows about John key and what John Key knows.

    Winston Peters constantly goes on about this hinting at coming destruction at his hands by the release of information that could only have come from Dotcom.

    Sources inside the Dotcom mansion tell me that Dotcom sat down and essentially dictated the questions that needed to be asked in parliament and on one occasion sat and watched with glee as Winston Peters asked the very same questions in parliament.

    Winston Peters now has some very clear questions that need to be answered about his political association with Kim Dotcom and why he asked those questions on behalf of Dotcom and whether or not there was any consideration given.

    – Whale Oil http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/page/2/
    _________________________________________

    • Winston Peters long time partner is Jan Trotman.
    • From 1993-2006 Ms Trotman was General Manager of Janssen, Pharmaceutical Companies of Johnson and Johnson.
    • During this period, Winston Peters and other members of his caucus asked many very specific questions in relation to the pharmaceutical industry regarding Pharmac funding and in particular in relation to Janssen products.

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/page/4/

    for Jacob

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  307. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Sorry, I’m not sure what your saying here. But I’ll take a stab. Of course you should act in ways that bring you joy and life and love, and the nature of humanity is that the most powerful way to do that is by bringing joy and love to others.

    What I’m saying is that every time I have asked you why I should do something you tell me is good, you have answered with something else you claim is good.

    You tell me I should give to the poor (it’s good).

    Why? Because it is loving your neighbour and you should love your neighbour (it’s good).

    Why? Because it is what I was created for and you should do what you were created for (it’s good).

    Why? Because it will bring me joy and you should do what brings you joy (it’s desirable to me).

    You’ve reached a point where you’ve stopped justifying the goodness of each thing by referring to another, prior thing that is good. Instead, you’re making a statement about me: “You desire joy.”

    Why should I do what is desirable to me?

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  308. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Is it a full moon? KB inhabited by wackos?

    Yeah, there’s this dick that comes up “Long live the Queen” or some such shit.

    The discovery of the mass graves of Mohawk children, uncovered by ground-penetrating radar at the Mohawk Institute comes on the heels of videotaped evidence by eyewitness William Coombes, who in Oct. 1964 witnessed Elizabeth Windsor, as Head of State of Canada and Head of the Church of England, visit an aboriginal school in Kamloops, British Columbia, choose 10 young aboriginal children, made them kiss her feet, and allegedly took them from the school for a picnic at a lake.
    http://canadianawareness.org/2011/10/mass-genocide-of-mohawk-children-by-uk-queen-and-vatican-uncovered-in-canada/

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  309. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    When it all began it was the size of a marble, not a billiard ball.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26605974

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  310. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Oh dear, back to the shape-shifting homicidal lizard creature otherwise known as Her Majesty the Queen. Couldn’t we stick with the moon landing ‘hoax’?

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  311. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    the goodness/love itself is the answer. It requires no further justification, so it’s not so much that I’m justifying one good act with another, but justifying goodness itself, as in, love is it’s own reward.

    I’m unsure as to how your questions speak to the issue of whether or not morality is absolute.

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  312. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth,

    So you think natural law is the programming of the marble?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26605974

    Is ultimately natural law acting in accordance with the imperative of the DNA of the kind.

    What then is free will, or moral choice?

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  313. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    Betty the queen’s been busy doing her shape-shifting homicidal lizard creature thing.

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  314. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Of course, UT. You’re a devout follower of Islam, that vile and violent religion.

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  315. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Ryan, humanity has the capacity to change the habitat of a planet – and thus impact on the survival of all kinds dependent on it for life. Also to manage its own DNA, a somewhat more self aware object than a thrown stone. Humanity can throw itself.

    One hopes that it has the capacity to determine what it should do and also to act on this should.

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  316. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Of course, UT. You’re a devout follower of Islam, that vile and violent religion.

    You’re full of shit, Manolo. I’ve never set foot inside a mosque in my life.

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  317. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “http://canadianawareness.org/2011/10/mass-genocide-of-mohawk-children-by-uk-queen-and-vatican-uncovered-in-canada/”

    Oh dear. The Canadian Awareness Network is connected with David Icke, the originator of the lizard people conspiracy.

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  318. wreck1080 (3,784 comments) says:

    wow, john key is meeting with the most powerful leaders in the world — first golfing with the us president now has secured a chat with the chinese president .

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  319. stigie (965 comments) says:

    “wow, john key is meeting with the most powerful leaders in the world — first golfing with the us president now has secured a chat with the chinese president”

    Good on John Key, the best Prime Minister NZ has ever had !~

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  320. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Catholic doctrine teaches that the roman Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. !!! so your view on church history starting after 400ce is not the teachings of the catholic church or valid.

    Theologians are careful to note that the church didn’t develop the canon, God did that by inspiring its writing and superintending each book’s preservation. The church recognized the canon by experience and mutual agreement.

    As god didnt actually do this as he doesnt exsist.Man decided the books well after the fact ie filtered the knowledge of jesus teachings though a different set of perspectives.
    God :lol: has preserved in his infinite wisdom the teachings of christ contained in the gospel of mary despite 2000 years of suppression by this tenet it must be holy and included.

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  321. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    I’ve never set foot inside a mosque in my life.

    From your defense of the jihadists, I’m inclined to believe you pray facing Mecca five times a day. :-)

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  322. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    That’s quite a claim, stigie. Who do you rate as second and third best?

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  323. Kimbo (672 comments) says:

    Preferred PM:

    - John Key 66.5% (up 4.6)

    666

    I upvoted it, even though I support Key and National. It showed a sense of humour that I considered you hitherto lacked, wikiriwhis business.

    Just saying

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  324. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    I’ll have to respond to any further posts later as I have to get to work.

    Great debate/conversation by the way. So much better than the usual political ad hominem!

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  325. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    What exactly does New Zealand gain from its PM meeting these foreign leaders?

    The ultimate value is not in the meetings themselves – that is just a selfie with a foreigner present, do we realise our objectives or do “they/them” advance their cause?

    What is the track record with meetings – Sky City, Comalco, and Hollywood?

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  326. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    From your defense of the jihadists, I’m inclined to believe you pray facing Mecca five times a day.

    Like I said Manolo, you’re full of shit. Jihad means struggle, eg the struggle against oppression. One can be involved in a jihad without being a Muslim.

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  327. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    SPC
    The meetings with foreign leaders are symbolic and harmless. You’re right though, it’s those meetings with corporate interests we need to keep an eye on.

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  328. Kimbo (672 comments) says:

    Catholic doctrine teaches that the roman Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. !!! so your view on church history starting after 400ce is not the teachings of the catholic church or valid.

    Let ‘em teach what they want. Protestants (and Eastern Orthodox for that matter) believe it was Christian before it became Roman Catholic.

    And when

    Man decided the books well after the fact ie filtered the knowledge of jesus teachings though a different set of perspectives.

    THAT was the means by which God sovereignly oversaw the process by which the canon was rightly identified by his true (gnostic-rejecting) Church. The Church recognised that which was already authoritative, and the Councils confirmed it. So internal authority of the texts first, with recognition by the Church following.

    The books did not drop out of heaven, nor were they dictated in a human typewriter fashion as Muslims claim is the case with Mohammed and the Koran.

    …whose teachings, btw, WERE heavily influenced by gnostic thought and heresy.

    Just saying

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  329. Tauhei Notts (1,633 comments) says:

    Sofia at 1.33 p.m. suggested that the Chinese would want to see John Key drink the milk.
    I would want to see John Wilson, chairman of Fonterra drink the Orivida milk. Then he would ask his people back here in N.Z.;
    “How come that Green Valley milk from Mangatawhiri is so much better than our Fonterra Anchor branded milk?”

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  330. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    the goodness/love itself is the answer. It requires no further justification, so it’s not so much that I’m justifying one good act with another, but justifying goodness itself, as in, love is it’s own reward.

    I’m unsure as to how your questions speak to the issue of whether or not morality is absolute.

    Put it this way. Let’s say I talk to a hedonist and have a similar conversation with him. We get to the root of his statements about how I should live, and he says: “You should act in ways that bring you pleasure. That pleasure is its own reward. It requires no further justification.”

    Would you say that you are right and he is wrong?

    And/or would you say that your morality is superior to his?

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  331. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull (6,381 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 3:56 pm

    What do you mean by “nothing more”? Are you comparing humans unfavourably to an imaginary state of affairs that has never been the case?

    I’m quite an extraordinary complex collection of billiard balls, thank you very much. If I wasn’t, I’d be nothing more than some kind of spiritual entity that is somehow occasionally exempt from the laws of physics.

    Exempt from the laws of physics doesn’t sound so bad. But perhaps physics can be accommodating:

    Warm quantum coherence in photosynthesis and the apparent observation of quantum vibrations in microtubules may suggest something more interesting than billiard balls.

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  332. Ryan Sproull (7,056 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    I’ll have to respond to any further posts later as I have to get to work.

    No worries.

    Great debate/conversation by the way. So much better than the usual political ad hominem!

    I know! Totally agree. Thanks for the good debate/conversation.

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  333. PhilP (158 comments) says:

    @ wreck
    wow, john key is meeting with the most powerful leaders in the world — first golfing with the us president now has secured a chat with the chinese president .

    So fucking what! he’s obviously a great guy from all accounts judging by the powerful people he meets.

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  334. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    he’s obviously a great guy from all accounts judging by the powerful people he meets.

    Sycophant much? Powerful people are not necessarily good people.

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  335. stigie (965 comments) says:

    @ mm
    “That’s quite a claim, stigie. Who do you rate as second and third best”

    Maybe Norman Kirk and kiwi Keith, but certainly not that she beast anyway !~

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  336. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    I’d probably rate Fraser first and Holyoake second.

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  337. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    I see there’s a new biography out on Norman Kirk. Might be worth a read.

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  338. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

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  339. Steve (North Shore) (4,517 comments) says:

    If they want to know where the Plane is, they could ask this guy:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/09666izs48rayfv/Fantasy%20Island.png

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  340. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Or, for a less credible source, they could ask Ugly Truth.

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  341. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    Heh.

    Vladimir Putin’s concern for the will of the people brings a tear to the eye and a glow to the heart.

    The Kremlin cares, gosh darn it, and if you want to secede, then Russia is going to make it happen.

    And they’ll start with a referendum, just as the Russians have done in the Ukrainian region of Crimea where a whopping 96% of those voting, voted to leave! The Russians were so insistent on Crimea’s right to be “liberated,” that they only gave the Crimeans two choices on the ballot: secede; or secede and join Russia. (Seriously.)

    In view of Russia’s George-Washington-like zeal for freedom and independence, I’m looking forward to the upcoming referenda in Russian Chechnya, Dagestan and Karelia

    http://americablog.com/2014/03/putins-secession-referendum-chechnya-dagestan-karelia.html

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  342. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    cha, do not forget North Ossetia’s right to secede from Russia and form Ossetia with the South Ossetia liberated by Russians from Georgia.

    I also welcome Russian support for the formation of Kurdistan and new states from parts of China – in the north West and Tibet and of course the continued independence of Taiwan and full independence for Hong Kong.

    However my support for Crimean self determination is tempered by insistence there be continued access to migrate back to Crimea for Tartars under any Russian rule.

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  343. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Of course, referenda in Tibet and North West China may be influenced by facts on the ground – the migration of Han Chinese, just as Russian migration into Crimea has there.

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  344. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    What are the slimy Labour/Greens going to make of PM’s invite to dinner with Chinese premier? Maybe he produce a receipt.

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  345. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    An easy mistake…..could happen to anyone. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xaiaflw7ohiyofc/6a00d8341c7ae753ef01053723b224970b.jpg

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  346. Viking2 (11,217 comments) says:

    Pacific Aerospace, the Hamilton aircraft manufacturer which traces its roots back to the early days of top dressing, has struck a $75 million deal in China with one of the world’s largest car companies.

    Prime Minister John Key is signing a co-operation agreement this afternoon between Pacific and Beijing Automotive, which will see the Kiwi company manufacturing its flagship P-750 for the Chinese market.

    Pacific chief executive Damian Camp said the deal was the culmination of more than two years’ work, but the scale of the deal was still “mind boggling” in terms of scale.

    “This is huge. We’ve been around for 65 years [and] this will be the biggest thing we’ve done,” Camp said.

    “This is the largest growth market for general aviation in the world.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9841084/Aviation-deal-mind-boggling

    Go Pacific Areospace.

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  347. Andrei (2,528 comments) says:

    If my memory serves me correctly New Zealand sent troops to help East Timor liberate itself from Indonesia Cha.

    The stench of hypocrisy over Crimea is reached levels exceeding those registered by vegetarians farts

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  348. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    So Scientists believe they may have found evidence supporting the “Big Bang” theory (not the TV series),

    now, in the debate that is bound to eventuate from such a discovery, who will be the ‘conspiracy theorists’and who will be the ‘deniers’?

    http://rt.com/news/big-bang-cosmic-inflation-446/

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  349. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Hopefully they will not experience the fate of many company after exposure to china based partnerships
    their products stolen copied and sold with no development overheads by their “Partners” thus totally destroying the business

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  350. itstricky (1,681 comments) says:

    Judith In the same vein I would love to hear the deniers on this one:
    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/history/news/article.cfm?c_id=500832&objectid=11220886

    Referring to the past collapses of often very sophisticated civilisations – the Roman, Han and Gupta Empires for example – the study noted that the elite of society have often pushed for a “business as usual” approach to warnings of disaster until it is too late.

    If it is not already covered in the above 300+ nowhere else to go nothing else to do comments, of course…

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  351. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    From the link “itstricky” provided….

    ….””Collapse can be avoided and population can reach equilibrium if the per capita rate of depletion of nature is reduced to a sustainable level, and if resources are distributed in a reasonably equitable fashion,” the scientists said.”…..

    The NWO nutters are opening up a new front. They must have lost confidence in the power of AGW bullshit to get the plebs in behind.

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  352. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    This was up earlier.

    Much more than evidence of the big bang and the beginning of this universe is involved.

    http://www.popsci.com/article/science/huge-physics-finding-supports-big-bang-theory?dom=PSC&loc=slider&lnk=1&con=detecting-the-bang

    Scientists announced today (March 17) that they had found the first direct evidence of the dramatic expansion that created the known universe, known as cosmic inflation, or the “bang” in the Big Bang. This dramatic expansion is thought to have occurred in the first instants of existence, nearly 14 billion years ago, causing the universe to expand beyond the reach of the most powerful telescopes.

    In 1979, a physicist named Alan Guth came up with the theory of cosmic inflation, and theorized that such an event would create ripples in space-time called gravitational waves. But their existence remained hypothetical. Today, a team of researchers said that they had detected these gravitational waves, using a telescope near the South Pole.

    “This is huge,” Marc Kamionkowski, a researcher at Johns Hopkins University who was not involved in the discovery but who predicted how these gravitational wave imprints could be found, told Scientific American. “It’s not every day that you wake up and find out something completely new about the early universe.” He added that the results looked good, although they would need to be verified by others to hold up.

    The finding seems to support the idea that the observable universe is only one of many, as the New York Times reports:

    Confirming inflation would mean that the universe we see… is only an infinitesimal patch in a larger cosmos whose extent, architecture and fate are unknowable. Moreover, beyond our own universe there might be an endless number of other universes bubbling into frothy eternity, like a pot of pasta water boiling over.

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  353. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    The stench of hypocrisy over Crimea is reached levels exceeding those registered by vegetarians farts

    Yeah, damn Ukrainians should STFU, do as Moscow demands and be grateful there’s no edict to find tougher people.
    /

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  354. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    cha

    You don’t think that the Ukraine was doomed from the outset. It seems to be a nation stitched together from different peoples….even the language is different in the East & the West.

    Perhaps the breakup could be to everyone’s advantage.

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  355. Grant (427 comments) says:

    So, Ugly Truth, how did she kill them?
    G

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  356. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    nasska

    With Crimea depending on Ukraine for roughly 70% of its budget, 90% of its water and most of its energy and food supplies do you really think Putin will stop at the border?.

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  357. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    cha

    I can see the East Ukraine coming under the Russian umbrella once again but then the people are via resettlement & forced expulsions pretty much Russian anyway. Putin is playing mindgames with the West & whatever happens, the Ukraine is just a pawn in the middle.

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  358. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    The issue in eastern Ukraine is determining the areas in which polls occur. The area with a pro Russian majority could be expanded to include areas with a pro Ukraine majority, going from 75% pro Russia to 51% pro Russia. Thus to maximise the territorial gain to Russia.

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  359. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Usa national game poker…………………………………………….. Russia national game chess

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  360. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    SPC

    This is a superpower scrap & any justice or injustice done to the Ukranian people will be incidental to that. IMHO it would suit the US if the East Ukraine was made up out of different people with diverse agendas.

    The West’s payback would be tying up the Russians in huge expense to prop up the economy & employ sufficient troops at hand to keep the population away from each others throats.

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  361. Viking2 (11,217 comments) says:

    You aucklanders are in the crap again. Gotta spend more money.

    Costly fireplace ban back on the table

    Auckland Councillor Cameron Brewer says panicked council staff are determined to quickly push through costly measures to ban domestic open fireplaces as well as phase out pre-2005 wood burners, affecting nearly 90,000 Auckland homes.

    “There’s a renewed panic around the place that if drastic measures are not taken Auckland will not meet National Environmental Standards for Air Quality – standards it is supposedly required to meet by 2016. Subsequently, it’s now the more costly and extreme measures for Auckland homeowners that are now being pushed for rapid implementation.”

    Mr Brewer says the latest council figures show that a prohibition of domestic open fireplaces will affect 21,000 households, while there are 67,000 pre-2005 wood burners. The idea is to ban open fireplaces sooner rather than later and force old wood burners to be removed when houses are sold which is known as the point of sale rule.

    “The reported numbers of those who die prematurely from air pollution caused by home heating fires seems to be bouncing all around the place, as are the claimed costs to our health sector, not to mention the numbers of Auckland households affected. However one thing constant is the council’s resolve to implement the new costly rules.

    “Sadly this is going to hit low-income families and the elderly particularly hard. Many Aucklanders love their open fire or old wood burner and rely on these trusty and traditional forms of heating. Having to buy the likes of a heat pump and pay more for electricity will literally leave many in the cold.

    “This is set to be just another extra council cost for Aucklanders to add to their growing rates bills, regulatory fee hikes, user-pays rubbish next year, and the Mayor’s on-going push for tolls and or a regional fuel tax.”

    Mr Brewer says instead of just focusing on hitting the little suburban homeowner, the council needs to look harder at the likes of its dirty diesel buses that choke our streets.

    “Councillors kicked this for touch in 2012. Nonetheless as of last year council had already spent at least $360,000 on reports and staff time to keep pushing this change through. With the 2016 target quickly looming, unfortunately it now seems a case of when not if,” says Cameron Brewer.

    http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/local/2200 … le-brewer/

    http://old.nzcpr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1370&p=46561#p46561

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  362. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    SPC before the big bang was a singularity ifinite mass and energy taking up no space with no time.

    such places exist in our universe

    blackholes

    Like part of a cosmic Russian doll, our universe may be nested inside a black hole that is itself part of a larger universe.

    In turn, all the black holes found so far in our universe—from the microscopic to the supermassive—may be doorways into alternate realities.

    According to a mind-bending new theory, a black hole is actually a tunnel between universes—a type of wormhole. The matter the black hole attracts doesn’t collapse into a single point, as has been predicted, but rather gushes out a “white hole” at the other end of the black one, the theory goes.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100409-black-holes-alternate-universe-multiverse-einstein-wormholes/

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  363. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Scientists announced today that they had found the first direct evidence of the dramatic expansion that created the known universe

    I notice it doesn’t say ‘scientists announced today that they had found the first direct evidence of an invisible magical pixie.’

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  364. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    I thought he was your friend wat.
    you always seem to use the magic climate pixie as an explanation for the warming generated by co2.
    still nothing like faith for the lost.
    …………eh……….
    :lol:

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  365. Steve (North Shore) (4,517 comments) says:

    If you mention Scientists and Big Bang in the same sentence, the academias get all horny.
    Try an attack on John Key, Judith

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  366. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    Existence is like a book with a million pages, written in an ancient language.

    Science attempts to decipher this book page by page. Religion just looks at the cover & tries to guess the ending.

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  367. martinh (1,163 comments) says:

    So it was now a function and not just a dinner with mates Bill?
    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbpol/1861969646-labour-ready-to-dish-more-dirt-on-judith-collins

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  368. Johnboy (15,390 comments) says:

    I can’t be bothered reading the previous three zillion comments but if no one has said this earlier here’s my theory on MH370.

    It’s too well planned to be done by a sporadic nutter. It was carefully planned and organised with help from insider’s..the pilots.

    They made a particularly carefully planned scheme to dupe ATC as to the status/position of the aircraft so as to cause maximum confusion.

    They flew the aircraft to a prearranged destination.

    The passengers will have already been executed.

    The aircraft is now being prepared with a nuclear/dirty/CB cargo to strike a major blow to a western target even bigger and better than 911.

    Stay away from any sporting, governmental, regal occasions that may be happening in the near future.

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  369. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    idle thought

    How many hits did the comments mentioning the buzzing at the strandard on Mr Cunliffe the poll trend doesn’t lie generate for their website.

    A flurry of masochistic kb’s with a morbid fascination for train wreaks may have given the poor left bloggers a false hope of relevance.

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  370. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    Another theory Johnboy.

    MH370 A different point of view. Pulau Langkawi 13,000 runway.

    A lot of speculation about MH370. Terrorism, hijack, meteors. I cannot believe the analysis on CNN – almost disturbing. I tend to look for a more simple explanation of this event.

    [...]

    What I think happened is that they were overcome by smoke and the plane just continued on the heading probably on George (autopilot) until either fuel exhaustion or fire destroyed the control surfaces and it crashed. I said four days ago you will find it along that route – looking elsewhere was pointless.

    This pilot, as I say, was a hero struggling with an impossible situation trying to get that plane to Langkawi. No doubt in my mind. That’s the reason for the turn and direct route. A hijack would not have made that deliberate left turn with a direct heading for Langkawi. It would probably have weaved around a bit until the hijackers decided on where they were taking it.

    https://plus.google.com/106271056358366282907/posts/GoeVjHJaGBz

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  371. Sofia (826 comments) says:

    John Key has had a rare invite to a dinner meeting with China’s president Xi Jinping.

    Will Cunliffe want to know who is paying – mark of a great Leader to ask really relevant questions.
    And to kick Judith Collins while he is down in the polls.

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  372. Johnboy (15,390 comments) says:

    So the pilot says “Goodnight” and just at the transition point between Malaysian and Vietnamese ATC suddenly gets overcome by smoke while turning off ACARS and transponder and does an involuntary left turn and flys on for 6 hours or so until he runs out of fuel cha?

    Yep! :)

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  373. Johnboy (15,390 comments) says:

    Will JK and XJ toast each other with a cold glass of milk and if so WHOSE milk may we ask? :)

    ps: And who paid for it? :)

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  374. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    I notice it doesn’t say ‘scientists announced today that they had found the first direct evidence of an invisible magical pixie.’

    Yet you persist with the assertion that some science is unreliable.

    Those who think they can cherry-pick science simply don’t understand how science works

    - Neil deGrasse Tyson

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  375. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    cha

    http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/03/malaysia-370-day-10-one-fanciful-hypothesis-and-another-that-begins-to-make-sense/284468/

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  376. Johnboy (15,390 comments) says:

    You don’t carefully turn off ACARS, transponder and fail to make a mayday call over a lengthy period of time when you are being overcome by smoke during a cockpit fire folks. Incidentally that fire had great timing so it happened just at the crucial handover from one ATC zone to the other! :)

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  377. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    Spooky man…….

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  378. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    HAS THE WINE BOTTLE WEASAL RESIGNED YET

    Just need to know if my rates are paying for dishonest black mailers
    and LOW LIFE SCUM OF THE EARTH

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  379. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    johnboy, the theory was that fire took out ACARS and the transponder

    “this leads me to believe more in an electric or electric fire issue than a manual shutdown. I suggest the pilots were probably not aware it was not transmitting.”

    The next event is the turn to the SW in what appears direct Langkawi (13,000 foot runway).As I said in the first post the pilot probably had this in his head already. Someone said why didn’t he go to KBR on north coast of Malaysia which was closer. That’s a 6,000 foot runway and to put that plane down on a 6,000 foot strip at night uncertain of your aircraft’s entire systems is not an option. I would expect the pilot would consider ditching before a 6,000 runway if still above maximum landing weight which he likely was.

    The safest runway in the region to make the approach was certainly Langkawi – no obstacles over water with a long flat approach. In my humble opinion this 18,000 hour pilot knew this instinctively.

    Reports of altitude fluctuations. Well given that this was not transponder generated data but primary radar at maybe 200 miles the azimuth readings can be affected by a lot of atmospherics and I would not have high confidence in this being totally reliable. But let’s accept for a minute he might have ascended to 45,000 in a last ditch effort to quell a fire by seeking the lowest level of oxygen. It is an acceptable scenario in my opinion. At 45,000 it would be tough to keep this aircraft stable as the flight envelope is very narrow and loss of control in a stall is entirely possible. The aircraft is at the top of its operational ceiling. The reported rapid rates of descent could have been generated by a stall and recovery at 25,000. The pilot may even have been diving the aircraft to extinguish flames. All entirely possible.

    But going to 45,000 in a hijack scenario doesn’t make any good sense to me.

    The question of the time the plane flew on.

    On departing Kuala he would have had fuel for Beijing and alternate probably Shanghai and 45 minutes. Say 8 hours. Maybe more. He burned 20-25% in first hour with takeoff, climb to cruise. So when the turn was made towards Langkawi he would have had six hours or more. This correlates nicely with the immarsat data pings being received until fuel exhaustion.

    The apparent now known continued flight until TTFE time to fuel exhaustion only actually confirms to me the crew were incapacitated and the flight continued on deep into the south Indian ocean.

    There really is no point in speculating further until more evidence surfaces but in the meantime it serves no purpose to malign the pilots who well may have been in an heroic struggle to save this aircraft from a fire or other serious mechanical issue and were overcome.”

    Why the no mayday call is the question.

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  380. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    SPC/Johnboy

    FWIW – my brother the airline skipper reckons ghost plane, MH 370 is in the tide.

    btw, minus really does like ewe JB.

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  381. Johnboy (15,390 comments) says:

    You may be right SPC. I’d still avoid mass gatherings of population till the wreckage is found.

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  382. Johnboy (15,390 comments) says:

    Most likely is cha but Dan Brown needs some new ideas for his next book. I just thought he might follow KB! :)

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  383. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    A kiwi saw the thing catch fire what else do you need to know

    it burned and then it sunk

    Sure they are telling lies about everything but there sure as hell is not going to be much left of anything

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  384. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    As it happens: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10704769/Malaysian-Airlines-MH370-live.html

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  385. Left Right and Centre (2,861 comments) says:

    Well chickadee certainly sounds like a whining ignorant little gen Y moron.

    Before student loans – you had to earn your way into tertiary study with a good bursary and then a lot of graduates were bonded to a job for x number of years. Less whining and more learning.

    Sometimes you hate the baby boomers ? Really ? You wouldn’t be here without them. Or did the fucking stork drop you on your head when you landed ?

    Idiots like this make the foreign investors seem not quite so bad.

    It wouldn’t matter what the housing market was doing if savings decrease, would it ? Duh !! That’s life, innit ? I suppose you want Labour to just give you a house whatever your resources are. Would that make it all better ya poor little wee petal flower ? Please….

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  386. Left Right and Centre (2,861 comments) says:

    b1gdaddynz – which chart calls that obese ? It’s borderline ‘overweight’.

    It doesn’t apply to bloody rugby players, does it ?

    I can’t believe some people on here… what a pack of fucktards….

    Rugby players are all obese meh meh meh. It isn’t called the fuckin ‘rugby player body mass index scale’, is it ya c**ts ? No. That’s fuckin right. General population statistical measure to help with studies. Faaaaaaar out !! FFS get a fuckin clue someone please !!

    What about – BMI doesn’t apply to Islanders – because they’re naturally bigger. Natural 150kg women ? Really??

    A third of them are just taking the absolute living piss and to be 50% lard and say it’s your ethnic body type – piss off !!

    Jonah Lomu was in his prime 125kg of ripped whipass at 6 foot 5 tall. Everyone is like that in Tonga, are they ? What the FUCK is going on here people ?? Am I losing my freakin mind here ? This is descending into crackpot talkback schizo caller lunacy man – who’s ya reference – Ken Ring and his dancing troupe of astrologers ?

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  387. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    But going to 45,000 in a hijack scenario doesn’t make any good sense to me.

    It makes sense if you want to hide your destination. Higher altitudes mean better fuel efficiency, so you’ve got spare fuel to zig-zag your way there.

    Another point which the MSM glosses over is the disappearance of flight 370 from commercial radar. Turning off the transponder doesn’t make the plane invisible to radar, and if the pilot engaged in “terrain hugging” he would risking drawing attention to himself and excessive fuel consumption.

    http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/awacs.html

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  388. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    “Let’s say I talk to a hedonist. We get to the root of his statements about how I should live, and he says: “You should act in ways that bring you pleasure. That pleasure is its own reward. It requires no further justification.”

    Would you say that you are right and he is wrong?

    And/or would you say that your morality is superior to his?”

    Yes I would. The difference is that a hedonist is engaged solely with his own pleasure, without any regards to anyone else. A hedonist can be a hedonist alone. So a hedonist may (and likely will if they are addicts) hurt other people in the pursuit of his own pleasure. Moreover, because being alone is not our created purpose, a hedonist may feel superficial pleasure, but this will not bring him the deep joy that loving others does. In fact, the hedonist is not really a hedonist at all, just an addict to the flesh. Loving others would actually bring him far more and far deeper fulfillment and pleasure, but the hedonist swaps that for a very thin, superficial and fleeting pleasure. C.S Lewis said that our problem is not that we like pleasure, but that we do not like it enough (paraphrased slightly).

    Agape Love on the other hand, is different to hedonistic pleasure. While it brings you deeper joy, that joy is not mere pleasure, and in fact may be experienced as pain (if a loved one dies for example), yet even that pain is in the long run more fulfilling than any mere pleasure of the flesh. But, perhaps more importantly, the difference is that superficial hedonism is always “me” focused ( even when a pleasure or addiction is shared) while agape love is always oriented to another.

    Or to use Martin Buber’s way of putting it, agape love is ‘I-Thou’ which is our true reason for living, while hedonism is just ‘I’, which is not. It is this I-Thou relationship that is the key to human identity and purpose, rooted in and flowing from the I-Thou relationships of the Trinity, Father-Son-Spirit.

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  389. 4077th (2 comments) says:

    Greetings all. I am long time registered user but never commented. I find myself here (perhaps like a few others) as a refugee from The Whale People. Having been a long term member and recently a paying member I found myself perma banned 2 days ago after criticising 2 mods for posting video that was in my book quite distasteful and completely at odds with their new rules..swearing and suchlike. I have made appeals but am not going to be a sook about it and perhaps carve out a spot for myself here. Cheers!

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  390. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    HOW MUCH DO ACT OR NATIONAL PAY FOR THIS FORUM TO OPERATE

    [DPF: Stop trolling and shouting. 20 demerits]

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  391. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    NZ IS meant to be one of the
    LEAST CORRUPT Countries on the PLanet?

    Yeah Right

    SO WHEN IS THE EXTORTIONIST BLACK MAILER ON THE AUCKLAND CITY COUNCIL GOING TO RESIGN?

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  392. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    here is a Bane prediction every week or 2-3 days there will be a

    change the flag post?

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