General Debate 26 March 2014

March 26th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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212 Responses to “General Debate 26 March 2014”

  1. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    Aborted babies incinerated to heat UK hospitals.

    The remains of more than 15,000 babies were incinerated as ‘clinical waste’ by hospitals in Britain with some used in ‘waste to energy’ plants.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10717566/Aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-UK-hospitals.html

    ‘Grandads’ Norman and Cunliffe are planning to nationalise their euthanasia models for state owned energy. :cool:

    The world’s a very sick place alright!

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  2. RRM (10,104 comments) says:

    Cool story brah.

    My grandmother’s body was incinerated in a ‘pointless smoke-generation exercise’…

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  3. jp_1983 (237 comments) says:

    The NZ Herald has taken down this story but here it is on a different site
    http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/544838/20140325/nomakeupselfie-selfie-breast-cancer-new-zealand-research.htm#.UzHR5vmSynE

    ‘No Make-Up Selfie’ For Breast Cancer Viral in New Zealand; Criticized For Painting Women as ‘Weak’

    National Council of Women in New Zealand Pres. Julie Fairey is concerned that the selfie campaign will only reinforce sexism and lower the value of women.

    I really wonder if Julie Fairey is representative of the organisation she belongs too.

    – She is a local board member with her husband. Oh and she was in the Alliance Party and her husband is a failed Labour Candidate..

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  4. Sofia (858 comments) says:

    As someone mentioned yesterday …
    Cunliffe’s secret trust is not secret anymore and due to the pecuniary interest rules, Cunliffe HAS to reveal the names of the two mystery donors. Paying back their money does not invalidate the giving and receiving of the money.
    ___________________

    And Cunliffe has said –
    It’s quite clear that having primary-style elections is new and not something that has been explicitly foreseen before in the register rules. It does raise a number of legal technicalities over the match between internal party rules and the rules of the standing orders.
    It would be better for everybody if they were aligned.”

    Which seems to be an admission that the present rules do not fit the new situation, but Cunliffe just went ahead and arranged what he wanted anyway, so now it needs fixing or “aligning”.
    Yes, he returned an amount equivalent to $20,000. But the fact remains, the money was received, and in the interim may or may not have been used, and was not all declared in the proper manner. Did the money returned, come from the trust?

    APPENDIX B – PECUNIARY AND OTHER SPECIFIED INTERESTS
    7.1 (b) a description of each gift received by the member that has an estimated market value in New Zealand of more than $500 and
    the name of the donor of each of those gifts (if known or reasonably ascertainable by the member), and …

    “Ascertainable” is not specially defined under Part 1, so is assumed to mean what it ordinarily does: “to find (something) out for certain; make sure of” – which is what Cunliffe must have done to pay back, or order the paying back, of the sum returned.

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  5. Keeping Stock (9,384 comments) says:

    There have been plenty of SMOG’s from Labour lately, but this one takes the Big Mac. Megan Woods put out an infographic yesterday which both falsely linked McDonald’s with public-private partnerships, and used McDonalds’ intellectual property without their consent. It has since been deleted, but not before David McCunliffe and other Labour MP’s retweeted it.

    This is a massive McSMOG from Labour, and a McCock-up as well. But it’s also socialism in action; what is someone else’s is theirs as well, in their eyes. With all the lawyers in the Labour caucus, you’d think that these kinds of McClusterf*cks would be avoided, but they keep on coming.

    Would you like fries with that?

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/another-labour-mcsmog.html

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  6. RRM (10,104 comments) says:

    ‘Grandads’ Norman and Cunliffe are planning to nationalise their euthanasia models for state owned energy.

    A lie.

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  7. Chuck Bird (4,913 comments) says:

    Has Cunliffe me asked if Dotcom was one of the donors?

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  8. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9867725/High-risk-teen-will-violently-reoffend-judge

    This is why I am against the three strikes legislation.

    There are some cases (in fact far too many cases) where waiting for a third strike is not appropriate.
    The case above demonstrates that this young man, after his first violent offence should have been incarcerated on an infinite sentence, the length of which should only be determined by his ability to live in society – something that only the right qualified professionals can determine.

    There are a number of offenders who because of psychiatric/psychological disturbance/illness, including psychopathy should be able to be detained until such time as their mental state is deemed to no longer be a threat to anyone. This should occur after a first offence – we should not have to sacrifice three or more innocent lives (because yes, even if victims live, their lives are invariably changed by the acts of the offender).

    Putting a finite number on a sentence in this situation is stupid – 5 years, 11 years? ? who knows if the offender will ‘cured’ in that time. We need a law that allows an undefined sentence in certain circumstances – perhaps even one that has to be signed off by more than one judge – but most certainly one that can be implemented one a first offence in some circumstances.

    Sentences should be able to ‘fit’ the context and conditions of the crime – not a number.

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  9. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “…..Which seems to be an admission that the present rules do not fit the new situation, but Cunliffe just went ahead and arranged what he wanted anyway, so now it needs fixing or “aligning”….”

    Making the law up as you go along it is called.

    The tax office takes a very dim view of people who think in this way with regards to their monetary affairs.

    Cunliffe is looking more and more like John Key everyday. :cool:

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  10. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (3,911 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 8:03 am

    Whilst I can understand your ‘horror’ of such action, surely your faith allows you to know that what was left to be burned, was not the ‘essence’ of the child, which, according to christian teaching would have long departed to be with the ‘heavenly father’. That must give some sense of comfort to those who have such faith, surely?

    The remains, most of which are barely identifiable as a baby, can be ‘claimed’ by the parents if they so wish, however the vast majority do not.

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  11. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Aborted babies incinerated to heat UK hospitals.”

    Ah yes, the age of reason and enlightenment at work.

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  12. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Whilst I can understand your ‘horror’ of such action, surely your faith allows you to know that what was left to be burned, was not the ‘essence’ of the child,”

    Partly true. The life had already been snuffed out by some Liberal butcher, er, “doctor”, but that does not make this any less sick.

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  13. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Abortion like Multiculturalism is promoted by people and countries who do not practice it

    It is a form of Genocide

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  14. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (620 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 8:28 am

    I totally agree. It sounds revolting and sent shivers down my spine.

    It is in situations of death that I believe the religious do have the advantage. Believing that the deceased has gone on to ‘greener’ pastures and that one day you will see them again, certainly assists in coping with death, much easier than the reality that I believe.

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  15. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    You largest trading partner still practices cannibalism

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  16. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Wait for state enforced Euthanasia that is coming

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  17. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “You largest trading partner still practices cannibalism”

    China?

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  18. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Unnamed crackpot Herald source theorises:

    He guessed that Captain Zaharie may have considered the flight a “last joyride” – the chance to do things in a plane he had previously been able to do only on a simulator.

    What utter bollocks.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11226334

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  19. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Ben Dover (467 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 8:34 am
    You largest trading partner still practices cannibalism

    An efficient means of dealing with overpopulation, negative ecological impact and food shortages, perhaps? :P

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  20. Mrs Trellis (34 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11225991

    At last it is safe to surf websites again without seeing that face……

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  21. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Ben Dover (468 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 8:35 am
    Wait for state enforced Euthanasia that is coming

    Cool. How does one get to be on the vetting committee ? :P

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  22. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Wait for state enforced Euthanasia that is coming”

    In principle I’m not opposed to self-chosen euthanasia for terminally ill people in extreme suffering, though I have concerns about protecting the sick from coercion.

    I have a pretty low view of modern democratic liberalism, but I seriously doubt euthanasia would ever be enforced by the State large scale. Then again Harriet’s article does not do much for my faith in human beings.

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  23. cha (4,144 comments) says:

    Pro-Kremlin demonstrators at the Polish consulate in Odessa chanted “Remember Katyń”.

    .

    At the same time they chanted: "Poles, remember the Katyń massacre!" and held placards with this menacing, or just baffling title. Katyń refers to one of Stalin’s crimes when 22 thousand Polish officers and others were murdered by the NKVD in April 1940. Some of the imprisoned officers were murdered in other camps, but the crime is usually referred to by the name of the forest near Smolensk in Russia where the largest common grave was found by the Nazis in 1943. The Soviets always denied responsibility and the Russian authorities, particularly under Vladimir Putin, have also hindered, rather than facilitated, attempts to establish the full truth about a terrible crime against humanity which many Poles consider an act of genocide.

    http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1395617950

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  24. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “……The case above demonstrates that this young man, after his first violent offence should have been incarcerated on an infinite sentence, the length of which should only be determined by his ability to live in society – something that only the right qualified professionals can determine….”

    Stop talking rubbish Judith, the first and formost role of the Law in society is to discourage MOST people from committing crime MOST of the time. A particular person’s ability to live in society has nothing to do with the first role.

    All you are advocating for Judith is for ARBITARY SENTANCES TO BE MADE BY THE PUBLIC SERVICE! :cool:

    Your goal is to have the judge sentance people to a term of between 2yrs and whatever – AND US PROGS WILL TAKE CARE OF THE REST.

    Fuck that.

    Let’s first concentrate on getting the first role of Law right ‘the deterrent term’ and then we can move on to the issue of returning prisoners to society and what they are going to do when they get out.

    Being trade or degree educated, feed, showered and sheltered by the tax payer is not my idea of a prison sentance Judith!

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  25. calendar girl (1,259 comments) says:

    Sofia@8:08am: “Yes, he returned an amount equivalent to $20,000. But the fact remains, the money was received, and in the interim may or may not have been used, and was not all declared in the proper manner. Did the money returned, come from the trust?”

    Cunliffe says that the money was returned. Where’s his evidence, or are we supposed to take his word for that?

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  26. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (3,913 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 8:41 am
    Being trade or degree educated, feed, showered and sheltered by the tax payer is not my idea of a prison sentance

    May not be your ideal sentence Harry, but my ideal is keeping innocent victims alive and safe.

    Like it or not, no matter what deterrents we come up with, they will NEVER affect the criminally insane, who are beyond moderating their behaviour by such measures.

    With continued and more extreme types of drugs being consumed by a larger population, we are going to see more mentally unstable people committing more extreme and bizarre offences. There needs to be a law that deals specifically with those who, even if it is a first offence, can be incarcerated for as long as it takes.

    Under current legislation, we need to wait for three offences – how would you feel to be the second or third victim?

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  27. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Death seems to be around a bit lately. My own dad went a year ago, my wife’s uncle late last week, and she has had to do 7 other funerals since the New Year.

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  28. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “…..It is in situations of death that I believe the religious do have the advantage. Believing that the deceased has gone on to ‘greener’ pastures and that one day you will see them again, certainly assists in coping with death, much easier than the reality that I believe….’

    And also that we’ve spent a lifetime doing our bit by working on His Kingdom on Earth – which gives us satisfaction in knowing that we have left behind values, truths, wisdom, knowledge – and hope – for our children’s children. And those that reside with them.

    Yes it’s all about self – a bucket list without Christianity in it just doesn’t satisfy my needs in life! :cool:

    The journey of dying is one that you do all by yourself. And for most, it starts along time before you die.

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  29. Dave Mann (1,246 comments) says:

    Hey I just saw this headline on, of all things, the Reuters News:

    “Muslim Brotherhood head, 682 others tried in Egypt after mass death sentence”

    Are Reuters’ subbies so illiterate and stupid not to know that a death sentence is given after a trial, not before it?

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  30. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    I still wanna know who the cannibals we are trading with are. That one honestly has me stumped.

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  31. doggone7 (850 comments) says:

    Kids dragged from school to school

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/9867561/Kids-dragged-from-school-to-school

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  32. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (624 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 8:57 am

    and it is unlikely to diminish, as we see the last of the ‘Greatest Generation’ disappear, and the beginning of the Baby Boomer generation starting to die. With the huge numbers of Boomers, funerals are set to become a regular event over the next 20-30 years. Just think about how many of them you know.

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  33. Chuck Bird (4,913 comments) says:

    @Scott Chris “Unnamed crackpot Herald source theorises:”

    The likelihood of pilot suicide would be infinitely more probable than the plane sitting in some Muslim country. Too many people would have to know about it.

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  34. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Judith,

    “they will NEVER affect the criminally insane, who are beyond moderating their behaviour by such measures.”

    Fair point, though for myself I still think three strikes was a good policy. But that and politics aside we are apparently getting much better at being able to predict criminal insanity at an early age. I’m curious as to where that might lead and if early intervention can make a difference.

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  35. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    DNA

    Markers

    Anti social abortions.

    Not a good idea to start the day with :lol:

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  36. Pete George (23,833 comments) says:

    “Has Cunliffe me asked if Dotcom was one of the donors?”

    From David Cunliffe with Rachel Smalley:

    Smalley: Is one of the donors Kim Dotcom?

    Cunliffe: Ah look I don’t know, but I’d be extremely surprised.

    Smalley: You can’t confirm either way?

    Cunliffe: No, I mean I think anyone who wants to ask that question should ask it of Mr Dotcom because I do not know the answer to that question.

    That day Dotcom tweeted:”I have never donated to the leadership race of @DavidCunliffeMP or to Labor, or the Greens, or NZ First. I support the #InternetParty!”

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  37. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (3,914 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 8:57 am

    I do agree with your sentiments, although, there are some that lead their lives, particularly as adults, with the intention of providing a legacy for their children, grandchildren and so on, that aren’t religious.

    By legacy I am not just talking about financial security, but also the life skills, values, morals etc.

    Have you ever viewed ‘The Last Lecture’ by Randy Pausch on youtube. Randy was a computer programmer, given a few months to live with pancreatic cancer. Wanting to leave something for his very young children to be guided by (fathering from the grave), he decided to take part in a series his university was running, in which each lecturer was asked to give a lecture on what they would say, if it was their last lecture.

    It takes an hour to watch, but Randy gives some damn good advice about achieving your dreams, and life in general. I believe there are many people like him, who want to leave a similar sort of legacy.

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  38. dime (10,222 comments) says:

    7 out of the first 33 posts are by Judith.

    Not often someone gets over the 20% mark.

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  39. jcuk (760 comments) says:

    Whatever the punctuation or phraseology it seems to me to be one of the worst cases …. 683 for one …. evil stalks the earth.

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  40. wreck1080 (4,001 comments) says:

    @dime :
    Where is the breakdown of posts/hour and some pie charts. Sorry, you’re fired.

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  41. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (626 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 9:07 am

    I have always believed that we are doing it wrong by putting the most emphasis on the repeat offenders.

    In my opinion it is the first offence (of any sort) that should get the deterrent, especially for young people.
    First time offenders should receive the most energy, and assistance to ensure they do not develop into repeat offenders.

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  42. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ dime (8,611 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 9:11 am

    aww dime, I am honoured you care enough to actually count my posts. I’m actually actively procrastinating. I have 92 first assignments for first year university students to mark. Having read the first one I’m in shock – and trying to find a way to avoid having to read the rest! :P

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  43. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    Cunliffe is looking more and more like John Key everyday.
    Vote: 0 10

    ——————————-

    I was being sarcastic towards Cunliffe – he tries to paint Key as someone who is rich and dodgy – and then gets caught out time and again doing just that himself.

    That’s not a good look. Reminds me of Mark Latham – a bully! :cool:

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  44. twofish (108 comments) says:

    Apparently –
    Insiders say Cunliffe had to be persuaded to be open about the trust so that it wouldn’t fester all the way to election day. – Colin James
    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/03/colin-james-cunliffe/#more-130775

    The Register is obviously to make transparent any influences or persuasions presented to politicians, so the electorate – us bloody plebs – can see what is going on.
    Although Cunliffe has now moved to comply with the rule, he was it seems, intent on breaking it in spirit.
    Probably puts Cunliffe up there with Hone Harawira’s ‘we have not discussed any joining with Dotcom’ lie.

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  45. cha (4,144 comments) says:

    Scroll down for the video.

    http://twentytwowords.com/lesbian-presents-herself-at-church-to-be-stoned/

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  46. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Ist/ Try hard.
    2nd/ Try real hard.
    3rd/ lock them away to the full extent of the law.

    Criminally insane should not be out unless they are safe –cured.

    Few of the feral are.

    They just don’t give a fuck.

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  47. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    ” I’m actually actively procrastinating. I have 92 first assignments for first year university students to mark.”

    I don’t envy you.

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  48. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “……Under current legislation, we need to wait for three offences – how would you feel to be the second or third victim?….”

    Fine by me……but the minimum sentance is then what a 3rd striker would get as a minimum. Like I suggested – we are not going to have such low minimums where it then becomes a case that arbitary sentances are made by ‘health professionals’.

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  49. Tauhei Notts (1,688 comments) says:

    Fonterra came out today with their half year’s results.
    Theo Spierings made reference in his report to the company’s “current asset footprint.”
    WTF is a current asset footprint?

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  50. twofish (108 comments) says:

    Dave Mann – Hey I just saw this headline on, of all things, the Reuters News:
    “Muslim Brotherhood head, 682 others tried in Egypt after mass death sentence”
    Are Reuters’ subbies so illiterate and stupid not to know that a death sentence is given after a trial, not before it?
    _______________

    The wife of the policeman whose murder led to death sentences for 529 Egyptians on Monday has suggested that only two of them may be responsible for his killing.
    The sentences caused global outcry on Monday after it emerged that the 529 had been convicted of the murder of officer Mostafa al-Attar last August in a case that lasted just two court sessions.

    Local lawyers protested against the death sentences by boycotting a second mass trial of 683 people on Tuesday, which was presided over by the same judge who ruled in the first case.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/25/egypt-lawyers-boycott-mass-trial

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  51. dirty harry (530 comments) says:

    “7 out of the first 33 posts are by Judith.”

    Is Judith the new Pete George? They both talk the same amount of bollocks.

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  52. dirty harry (530 comments) says:

    “WTF is a current asset footprint?”

    Good question. These corporates come up with some wanky expressions , our GM wanks on about ” sweating the asset ”
    why cant they just talk in good old fashioned plain english.

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  53. Chuck Bird (4,913 comments) says:

    MH370

    This is from today Herald.

    “His long-time associate said he had been facing serious family problems, including separation from his wife and relationship problems with another woman he was seeing. ”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11226334

    I wonder the likelihood of the other woman was the woman who made the last untraceable call to him in the cockpit.

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  54. cha (4,144 comments) says:

    So no homo bum sex HIV/aids blood donor connection to MH 370, you’re slipping chuckles.

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  55. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    One for cha :)

    When Two Lesbians Walk Into a Church Looking to Provoke Christians.

    http://www.charismamag.com/life/culture/20001-when-two-lesbians-walk-into-a-church-looking-to-provoke-christians

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  56. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “….So no homo bum sex HIV/aids blood donor connection to MH 370, you’re slipping chuckles….”

    One of the pilots had only in the last couple of days been to the trial of some gay Malayasian mp . I don’t know what he was on trial for but I believe he was jailed.

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  57. mikenmild (12,446 comments) says:

    The ‘gay Malaysian mp’ would be Anwar Ibrahim, imprisoned on what are widely considered to be politically motivated false charges of sodomy.

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  58. Julie from THM (7 comments) says:

    @jp_1983 Yes I’m not the National President of the National Council of Women. I am but a lowly branch president and was not speaking on behalf of NCWNZ at all. I sought a correction to the RNZ article that originated the error, which has been made, but not picked up by this other news outlet. Here’s the new version: http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/239733/women's-selfie-campaign-criticised
    I’m seeking a correction from the other site too.

    Most political candidates for any party are “failed” by the way. Not least the Alliance ;-)

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  59. Manolo (14,179 comments) says:

    Is Judith the new Pete George? They both talk the same amount of bollocks.

    Has anyone ever seen in the same room together? Both could be one and the same individual! :-)

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  60. Manolo (14,179 comments) says:

    Bureaucracy gone bonkers in today’s NZ: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/small-business/9867572/Man-charged-to-not-build-unwanted-veranda

    Man pays $420 for permission to not build veranda

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  61. Fletch (6,532 comments) says:

    This video will give you some idea of the number of American children aborted, vs all the Americans killed in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the American Revolution and the War on Terror combined.

    Just shocking.

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  62. Manolo (14,179 comments) says:

    In the past we viewed increasing prosperity as a result of greater productivity, but no longer. T oday, full employment is everything even if that means more dog groomers, personal trainers and grief counsellors.

    If the Christchurch rebuild boom makes sense then we should buy an old bomber and have the air force flatten several towns and cities each year, having first ensured their inhabitants got out of town. Great wealth would presumably flow. Some such as Kaikohe and Westport we wouldn’t rebuild, thereby saving on the welfare budget as their inhabitants moved to places of employment.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11225551

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  63. EAD (1,454 comments) says:

    @ Harriet 8.03am

    That is so so so wrong – a tear slipped down my cheek reading that.

    What have we become. Progressive bit by progressive bit every part of Western Civilization is being systematically destroyed………and it is all deliberate.

    One move at a time a singular change on it’s own doesn’t seem a big deal. A bit of anti-smacking law here, a bit of gay marriage there, a bit of multiculturalism over there, a bit more infantilism, welfarism, removal of Christianity and dumbed down education……and then we get babies burned for fuel and the horror hits you full in the face.

    We are heading back to the Dark ages, our CIVILisation is slowly collapsing but LOOK OVER THERE – COLIN CRAIG SAID SOMETHING, A PLANE HAS GONE MISSING, KIM DOTCOM, LOOK WHAT LABOUR ARE PROPOSING!

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  64. Ross12 (1,488 comments) says:

    http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/22173008/dam-bad-decision-for-rivers-green-party/

    Another one sided view from the Greens. I was talking to guy involved in agriculture in the area ( no he is not in dairying and will not be in the future ). He said the scheme will help the rivers and said with the dry spell this year there were fish deaths due to poor water flow. This proposed dam will help maintain water flow year round , so help maintain the ecology of the river.

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  65. redqueen (597 comments) says:

    I’m sorry, but this is the sort of absolute drivvel that the NZ Herald now produces:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11226251

    Let’s just quote lobby groups about how we all need a ‘green economy’ and it’s a sure thing to prosperity. We’ll leave this to our ‘Science Reporter’, rather than, oh I don’t know, an economist? And we just have to accept things like public transport and electric cars. It’s as simple as that. The fact that research is being done on technologies which would allow us to continue using combustion engines is meaningless (regardless of actual fuel input), instead we should all switch to a pre-defined ‘future’ which our leftist comrades tell us is inevitable. ABSOLUTE BOLLOCKS!

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  66. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    What have we become. Progressive bit by progressive bit every part of Western Civilization is being systematically destroyed………and it is all deliberate.

    One move at a time a singular change on it’s own doesn’t seem a big deal. A bit of anti-smacking law here, a bit of gay marriage there, a bit of multiculturalism over there, a bit more infantilism, welfarism, removal of Christianity and dumbed down education……and then we get babies burned for fuel and the horror hits you full in the face.

    We are heading back to the Dark ages, our CIVILisation is slowly collapsing but LOOK OVER THERE – COLIN CRAIG SAID SOMETHING, A PLANE HAS GONE MISSING, KIM DOTCOM, LOOK WHAT LABOUR ARE PROPOSING!

    The rich are getting richer while the poor get poorer, the planet is being ruined for corporate financial gain, governments are spying on their citizens, wars are being waged for profit on the basis of lies and fearmongering, but LOOK OVER THERE – A BUREAUCRATIC MIX-UP AT A HOSPITAL IN THE UNITED KINGDOM! ANTI-SMACKING BILLS! MULTICULTURALISM!

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  67. mikenmild (12,446 comments) says:

    Let’s concentrate on the most important issues – gay marriage, immigration and multiculturalism.

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  68. EAD (1,454 comments) says:

    Ahhhhh yes – a one off bureaucratic mix-up if you ignore the 1000’s of deaths and culture of indifference towards life by over-entitled government workers indoctrinated in years of socialist thought:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5008935/NHS-targets-may-have-led-to-1200-deaths-in-Mid-Staffordshire.html

    Have you ever heard of the Liverpool Care Pathway? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2513136/It-murder-says-son-woman-starved-death-Liverpool-Care-Pathway-calls-police-inquiry.html

    And the reason the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer – guess who grants favours and legislation to the well connected and impoverishes people through min wage laws, green energy policy, welfarism, poor quality education and fiat money? Ahh yes just like it was on Animal Farm, the wonderful caring big government. Read this and learn something:

    https://mises.org/daily/6604/The-State-Causes-the-Poverty-It-Later-Claims-to-Solve

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  69. Jack5 (5,286 comments) says:

    An interesting touch in a report in the Christchurch Press last weekend which seemed to lay problems of drug addicts on an organisation set up to help them break their “habit”.

    The reporter wrote:

    …was once a respected player in Christchurch’s underworld …

    Perhaps drug addicts could in a sense be victims of a methadone programme set up to help them if it is badly run. But respected criminals?

    What has happened to the MSM? How did its values become so inverse? Why does it so often promote victimhood?

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  70. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “The rich are getting richer while the poor get poorer”

    Ryan, this is not really true. Globally poverty has declined over the last hundred years.

    “the planet is being ruined for corporate financial gain”

    Again, no. While we do have environmental problems, there are a whole variety of reasons for that, including trying to lift the living standards of the poor. “Corporate financial gain” is a slogan rather than a serious attempt to understand environmental issues.

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  71. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    The thought occurred to me at a Public Hospital last night visiting a friend who suffered traumatic injuries including a broken pelvis and broken ribs as a result of DIC driver hitting and flipping the family car . ( thankfully recovering well ). Her treatment like many others such as a fellow I know of, who has a debilitating motor neuron disease ,is covered by courtesy of you and me the taxpayer and ACC levies . Happily so for the vast majority of us.
    This kind of thing seems to make Libertarians feel victimized and tyrannized . I can only conclude, when I think of the above two individuals and innumerable other ones , that Libertarians must be suffering some severe form of narcissistic personality disorder ,or even a psychopathic one. !
    Quite extraordinary really that they feel so severely deprived . I include also ones like the super billionaires the Koch bros who champion this nefarious and evil doctrine and dogma. It makes you wonder if it could be added to the DSM Manual or mental disorders and thats been charitable.!

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  72. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    “The rich are getting richer while the poor get poorer”

    Ryan, this is not really true. Globally poverty has declined over the last hundred years.

    Debatable.

    “the planet is being ruined for corporate financial gain”

    Again, no. While we do have environmental problems, there are a whole variety of reasons for that, including trying to lift the living standards of the poor. “Corporate financial gain” is a slogan rather than a serious attempt to understand environmental issues.

    “Corporate financial gain is a slogan” is a slogan rather than a serious attempt to understand the motivating factors in the behaviour of the most influential and powerful agents on the planet.

    But all in all, you’re missing my point, which was in response to EAD, parodying his comment, showing that you can throw any slogans into his form of “the news is distracting you from what reaaaaaaally matters (i.e., what I care about)”.

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  73. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    This kind of thing seems to make Libertarians feel victimized and tyrannized .

    Says who, Stephieboy?

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  74. Jack5 (5,286 comments) says:

    Et tu, Ryan? A Libertarian?

    I would never have picked it.

    Most of us here would be contrarians, but not a Libertarian – surely?

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  75. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “But all in all, you’re missing my point, which was in response to EAD, parodying his comment, showing that you can throw any slogans into his form of “the news is distracting you from what reaaaaaaally matters (i.e., what I care about)”.”

    Sure, I get that. What is important to individuals tends to be subjective.

    “Says who, Stephieboy?”

    I have established that stephieboy has no clue about libertarianism, of any sort. This is why his posts on the subject are littered with strawman caricatures and childish ad hominem. And as he cannot seem to effectively debate the subject with any real libertarians, he has these silly conversations with himself instead.

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  76. Reid (16,740 comments) says:

    Just shocking.

    Every abortion Fletch represents a blood sacrifice to Satan. It’s why God has withdrawn His blessing from America with results that are clear for all those with eyes that see and ears that hear.

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  77. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    Et tu, Ryan? A bloody Libertarian?

    I would never have picked it.

    I’m a libertarian socialist, not the kind of minarchist capitalist that Stephieboy is ranting about.

    But I prefer that those kinds of assertions don’t go unchallenged, whether or not I’m the subject of them.

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  78. EAD (1,454 comments) says:

    @ Stephie

    But your missing out on an even more important issue – a matter of life and death…..FOOD. If we didn’t have food to eat we’d all starve!! We therefore need to get the government involved as without the government we all might die as who would provide us with food and farmers might make a profit out of such a life-critical necessity! Why, we could be like Venezuela or North Korea or the former USSR where the government took care of producing all the food and giving it to the populace for free – no queues, lots of choice and best of all, no complaints!

    I mean, when there is a monopoly in providing a good or service, it’s great how costs and choice for the consumer always come down….

    And you do realise that “in the old days” every physician understood that he or she had a responsibility towards the less fortunate and free medical care was the norm? Or is Healthcare the only thing in the world were universal Economic Law doesn’t apply?

    In short, if you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free.

    Now stop wasting my time with uni level, introductory marxist claptrap and warning me about every “liberals” favourite bogeymen, the Koch Brothers.

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  79. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “not the kind of minarchist capitalist that Stephieboy is ranting about.”

    I don’t think he’s talking about them either. He’s ranting about a fantasy in his own mind.

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  80. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    I don’t think he’s talking about them either. He’s ranting about a fantasy in his own mind.

    Well, sure, but for every person who comments on Kiwiblog, there are probably about 50 who read the comments and never say anything, so I like to give those folks the chance to see unfounded assertions get challenged, in case they share Stephieboy’s…

    Wow, it is raining like crazy here in Sydney.

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  81. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    It is always a good piece of evidence that we are in Progressive Liberal Left fantasy land when the Koch brothers are brought up in discussions about libertarianism.

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  82. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull , says who.? Your fellow disciple and fellow traveler Shawn L H I believe who but yesterday and the day before took on the mantel of victimhood on behalf of Libertarianism.
    But here is Ayn Rand the guru, demigod and founder of the movement,

    A manifesto for psychopaths ,

    http://www.monbiot.com/2012/03/05/a-manifesto-for-psychopaths/

    Note two things. Ayn Rand as a so called objectivist who is often now disowned by many Libertarians as it splinters , rather like Marxism, into different sects and isms.
    Ayn Rand’s life ended rather ingloriously and ironically who in her declining years ended up as a beneficiary on the largess of the state,. The very state she so wildly and shrilly condemned in her lifetime

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  83. Tauhei Notts (1,688 comments) says:

    Ross12 at 10.52
    Dairy farmers are prohibited from taking irrigation water from the Waimakariri River when the flow level at Belfast becomes too low to mask the effluent put out by the freezing works there.

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  84. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull , says who.? Your fellow disciple and fellow traveler Shawn L H I believe who but yesterday and the day before took on the mantel of victimhood on behalf of Libertarianism.

    Can you please provide a link to where Shawn said that he or anyone else feels victimised and tyrannised by people being helped at a public hospital?

    And it is a bit of a stretch to call a capitalist a “fellow traveler” of mine, Stephieboy.

    But here is Ayn Rand the guru, demigod and founder of the movement,

    A manifesto for psychopaths ,

    http://www.monbiot.com/2012/03/05/a-manifesto-for-psychopaths/

    Note two things. Ayn Rand as a so called objectivist who is often now disowned by many Libertarians as it splinters , rather like Marxism, into different sects and isms.

    Ayn Rands life ended rather ingloriously and ironically who in her declining years ended up as a beneficiary on the largess of the state,. The very state she so wildly and shrilly condemned in her lifetime

    If she is disowned by Libertarians, why are you bringing her up?

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  85. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “But here is Ayn Rand the guru, demigod and founder of the movement”

    LOL!!!!! :) :) :)

    Oh dear stephie, seriously, you should try doing just a wee bit of research before embarrassing yourself with this drivel.

    I prefer real books, but you could at least read the Wikipedia page on the subject. That surely is not too difficult.

    “Elements of libertarianism can be traced as far back as the ancient Chinese philosopher Lao-Tzu and the higher-law concepts of the Greeks and the Israelites. In 17th-century England, libertarian ideas began to take modern form in the writings of the Levellers and John Locke. In the middle of that century, opponents of royal power began to be called Whigs, or sometimes simply “opposition” or “country” (as opposed to Court) writers.

    During the 18th century, classical liberal ideas flourished in Europe and North America. Libertarians of various schools were influenced by classical liberal ideas. John Locke greatly influenced both libertarianism and the modern world in his writings published before and after the English Revolution of 1688.”

    Libertarianism existed way before Rand, and her ideas have never been universally accepted by Libertarians.

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  86. Weihana (4,621 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (632 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 11:14 am

    “The rich are getting richer while the poor get poorer”

    Ryan, this is not really true. Globally poverty has declined over the last hundred years.

    These two statements are not necessarily contradictory. Living standards have improved dramatically over the long term and this is true on a global scale. But the real issue of inequality represents a shorter timeframe (the last 30 years or so). There has been a divergence between productivity and job growth and median incomes, and this is especially true in the United States. The incomes at the top have exploded but the gains of economic growth have not been shared as widely. This has culminated in a great recession driven fundamentally by an inability of too many people to sustain high levels of personal debt while attempting to continue to drive the consumer demand that supports the living standards they expect to enjoy.

    So the question of inequality is not really about the long term trajectory of human society and whether we are better off now than 100 years ago. The question is about relatively recent trends in economic ideology. Whereas it was once widely accepted that the government has a considerable role to play in the economy in terms of regulation and taxes, nowadays it is believed that the more “free” the market is the better off we all are. Significantly there has been a massive increase in the power of capital to gain reward in the economy compared to labour. In many cases you see very wealthy people pay a lower tax rate than their modestly paid secretary.

    Of course capital is important to the economy, but it’s questionable whether modern economic ideology is achieving the right balance and as technology permits more and more automation (i.e. substituting capital for labour) this problem will only grow.

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  87. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Can you please provide a link to where Shawn said that he or anyone else feels victimised and tyrannised by people being helped at a public hospital?”

    He can’t. He’s referring to my view that compulsory taxation is theft. The rest is just more ad hominem, which stephie confuses with having an actual argument.

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  88. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    He can’t. He’s referring to my view that compulsory taxation is theft. The rest is just more ad hominem, which stephie confuses with having an actual argument.

    Oh, interesting.

    So, presumably if someone said that North Korea was a dictatorship, Stephieboy would say that they were saying they felt tyrannised by North Korean hospitals saving people’s lives.

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  89. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    My own Traditionalist Conservative Anarcho-Monarchism is about as far from Rand as it is possible to get. Rand was an enthusiastic modernist who despised religion. I’m a Christian who despises modernism.

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  90. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “….I’m a libertarian socialist….”

    Ryan wants everyone to think about themselves and what makes you happy, go out and do it, and have no regard for the damage it may well cause you and others at a later date – except where your money is concerned – on that matter the government will decide that for you at every step you take on your path to personal happiness.

    The left even have a list of proscribed goods that every household in NZ should have – tv’s, playstations, child care ‘educators’ and gender neutral parents!

    And if you don’t have them, then YOUR child is living in poverty and YOU are neglecting them! Marxism we used to call it.

    Seriously Ryan – you come across as someone who seems far too educated to believe in that nonsense. :cool:

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  91. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “So, presumably if someone said that North Korea was a dictatorship, Stephieboy would say that they were saying they felt tyrannised by North Korean hospitals saving people’s lives.”

    Yup, that is his argument in a nutshell. Stephie cannot seem to see that caring about the poor does not automatically lead to State socialism or progressive liberalism.

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  92. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    My own Traditionalist Conservative Anarcho-Monarchism is about as far from Rand as it is possible to get. Rand was an enthusiastic modernist who despised religion. I’m a Christian who despises modernism.

    And I’m a Buddhist who criticises capitalism. I mean, Stephieboy could hardly find three more different people than you, me and Ayn Rand.

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  93. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Seriously Ryan – you come across as someone who seems far too educated to believe in that nonsense.”

    To be fair I think Ryan’s “socialism” is a very different kettle of fish to mainstream State socialism.

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  94. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    EAD, You are not helping the debate with your highly loaded and emotive arguments about the Collectivization of agriculture etc.North Korea and the old USSR represent but one extreme of the argument on the far left with Libertarians on the far right.
    Of course ,food production lin countries like India and here works much better in private hands. What is the issue is the need whether or not to have a sensible set of health and safety regulations that govern both it’s distribution and consumption. We have those here right now and your deluded to think that we can do with out them as Libertarians seem to think . This in their role as victims that this is somehow depriving them to life , liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
    The present government ,has I think ,sought and found the right balance with their center right policies consigning extremes of both left and right to trash bin of irrelevancy. The 0.005% Libertariannz achieved last elections 2011 underscores that fact.

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  95. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    Ryan wants everyone to think about themselves and what makes you happy, go out and do it, and have no regard for the damage it may well cause you and others at a later date – except where your money is concerned – on that matter the government will decide that for you at every step you take on your path to personal happiness.

    The government that I don’t think should exist, Harriet? That’s an awfully long bow to draw.

    Seriously Ryan – you come across as someone who seems far too educated to believe in that nonsense.

    If I come across as educated, Harriet, perhaps you should pay more close attention to what I actually say.

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  96. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “And I’m a Buddhist who criticises capitalism. I mean, Stephieboy could hardly find three more different people than you, me and Ayn Rand.”

    Agreed, though ideological labels aside I suspect you and I have more in common than either of us would with Rand.

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  97. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    Agreed, though ideological labels aside I suspect you and I have more in common than either of us would with Rand.

    Well, I’d certainly like to think that I’m nicer than she was.

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  98. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “EAD, You are not helping the debate with your highly loaded and emotive arguments”

    Pot. Kettle. Black. :)

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  99. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    When I was a teen I tried to read through Rand’s Atlas Shrugged, but her writing and dialogue were so appallingly bad that I couldn’t finish it.

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  100. dime (10,222 comments) says:

    Shawn – do you ever listen to Stefan Molyneux? Do you rate him?

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  101. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    I never attempted Atlas Shrugged, but I read her attempts at philosophy and had a similar reaction.

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  102. Weihana (4,621 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (638 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 12:08 pm

    Anarcho-Monarchism

    So basically this + this = you?

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  103. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Dime,

    apart from being aware of who he is, I have never read anything by him to be able to make a judgement one way or another.

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  104. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Very close Weihana

    It should have been king Charley for the full impact of S.LH’s twisted reality. :lol:

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  105. cha (4,144 comments) says:

    March 25th 1854:

    .

    The direct consequences of a war with Russia we look upon with no apprehension, at least under existing circumstances. It may be costly; it may be troublesome; if Russia be obstinate when defeated it may be longer than we expect; but we cannot pretend to entertain the smallest doubt of the triumphant success of the allied arms both on sea and land. The Czar has, no doubt, an almost unlimited command of men—the principal but not the sole raw material of armies; and we can believe that he may be profuse and reckless in the use of them. But there his only advantage in the war he has brought upon us ceases. He has no great wealth; and the commerce which brings wealth will be cruelly cut up by war. His nobles will suffer both by the abstraction of their peasants, and the diminution of their traffic; they will have to pay a higher price for the foreign luxuries they import, and will receive a lower price for the agricultural produce with which they purchase them. They will thus be both impoverished and discontented. The commercial classes will suffer in like manner; and the combined influence of the two will probably be strongly exercised in favour of an early peace.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2014/03/crimean-war?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ar/realdangersofwar

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  106. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “…..This has culminated in a great recession driven fundamentally by an inability of too many people to sustain high levels of personal debt while attempting to continue to drive the consumer demand that supports the living standards they expect to enjoy….”

    No. They simply didn’t evaluate their risk correctly at the outset and borrowed too much. Or didn’t really give a shit at all. If things seem too good to be true they probably are[low interest rates in booming economies is always a sign that a large correction will happen in the forseeable future].

    And that behaviour -over borrowing- is what fueled the bubble. Typical crowd behaviour saw it blow up. We used to call it greed.

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  107. dime (10,222 comments) says:

    Shawn – he does a podcast. The biggest philosophy podcast in the world.. he was my introduction to libertarianism.

    He seems a bit obsessed with bit coin though.. suspect hes making money promoting/ speaking about it.

    He does some good podcasts on historical figures. Quite a good listen.

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  108. Weihana (4,621 comments) says:

    griffith (316 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 12:33 pm

    Very close Weihana

    It should have been king Charley for the full impact of S.LH’s twisted reality.

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/30/article-2406519-1B84E13F000005DC-617_306x459.jpg

    O Google… is there anything you cannot find for me? :)

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  109. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Ok dime, I’ll check him out.

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  110. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Griff! :)

    Here’s one for you!

    Dissent among scientists over key climate impact report.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26655779

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  111. calendar girl (1,259 comments) says:

    Harriet@12:11pm – “prescribed” rather than “proscribed”?

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  112. Manolo (14,179 comments) says:

    Dissent among scientists over key climate impact report.

    All in vain. Akin to asking a Muslim to eat pork.
    Griff is a deeply addled fundamentalist and AGW supporter, someone incapable of listening to reason or contrary opinion.

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  113. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Dissent among scientists over key climate impact report.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26655779

    “The message in the first draft was that through adaptation and clever development these were manageable risks, but it did require we get our act together,” he told BBC News.

    “This has completely disappeared from the draft now, which is all about the impacts of climate change and the four horsemen of the apocalypse. This is a missed opportunity.”

    Critics say that some aspects of the projected effects are “alarmist”, such as the impact on conflict and migration caused by climate change.

    “You have a very silly statement in the draft summary that says that people who live in war-torn countries are more vulnerable to climate change, which is undoubtedly true,” said Prof Tol.

    ;But if you ask people in Syria whether they are more concerned with chemical weapons or climate change, I think they would pick chemical weapons – that is just silliness."

    http://scienceblogs.com/significantfigures/index.php/2013/06/10/syria-water-climate-change-and-violent-conflict/

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  114. mikenmild (12,446 comments) says:

    The ‘dissent among scientists’ refers to differences over what to do about climate change. It will provide little comfort to any of Kiwiblog’s resident denialists.

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  115. cha (4,144 comments) says:

    My own Traditionalist Conservative Anarcho-Monarchism is about as far from Rand as it is possible to get. Rand was an enthusiastic modernist who despised religion. I’m a Christian who despises modernism.

    So you’re one of Nick Land’s Evola meets 4chan/pol/ fuckwits.

    http://www.vocativ.com/culture/uncategorized/dark-enlightenment-creepy-internet-movement-youd-better-take-seriously/

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  116. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    having to support the IPCC committee generated gap between the actual opinions of those who generally grasp the complexity and inherent risks.

    Alarmist would be ignoring the scientific concept of stastistcal certainties and over emphasizing the possible risks.

    :sob: They always label me alarmist when it is the entire scientific community baring a few shrill and nut whacks.. :twisted: :lol: .

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  117. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Fisking Monbiot.

    George Monbiot’s worst-ever Guardian column – and that’s saying something!

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100135439/george-monbiots-worst-ever-guardian-column-%E2%80%93-and-thats-saying-something/

    Clearly not a reliable source, on anything, let alone libertarianism.

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  118. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “It will provide little comfort to any of Kiwiblog’s resident denialists.”

    It will provide little comfort to alarmists who claim the IPPC is a neutral and non-politicized body that can always be trusted.

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  119. Paulus (2,712 comments) says:

    Forget Putin’s stupidity – the next world war will be over water.
    China is changing the courses of rivers to get water that it sorely needs.
    By doing so it is damming up rivers which normally go to other countries – Bangladesh, Burma, India, and some of the ………stans.
    These other countries are now being deprived of their normal supply of water very quickly.
    Despite this China is running out of water anyway.
    Much is a fast creeping desert, like Australia.

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  120. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    Shawn LH,

    Monibot’s thesis was that there is a link between conservative views and low intelligence is arguably a tenable one judging by your recent posts.
    I think you’ll find there there is an element of parody and lampooning in his original article but with a kernel of truth.

    http://www.monbiot.com/2012/02/06/liberal-constipation/

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  121. kowtow (8,945 comments) says:

    Talking of constipation, any Monbiot kernal is akin to the corn kernal in a turd from yesterday’s dinner.And about as useful or attractive.

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  122. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Have you read it?

    http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/are-liberals-smarter-than-conservatives

    The papers actual conclusion is the right-wing liberals are not only more intelligent than conservatives but are more intelligent than their left wing brethren. :shock: .

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  123. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Why does “Tojo” Cunliffe try and foot in financial matters? Having the fiscal nous of a typical Labour loser, even a CV of lies and deception, he would do better keeping quiet. His analysis of Genesis shares is a joke, and like his usual distorted views, a joke. Even though Lecher Parker is a bankrupt, he seems to have a better grasp of matters financial, than Tojo.

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  124. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Monibot’s thesis was that there is a link between conservative views and low intelligence is arguably a tenable one judging by your recent posts.”

    Says the boy who claimed Ayn Rand is the founder of libertarianism! :)

    “I think you’ll find there there is an element of parody and lampooning in his original article”

    I doubt it.

    “but with a kernel of truth.”

    No truth except another example of the arrogant Left engaging in pseudo-intellectual masturbation.

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  125. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    Shawn LH,

    Correct , Rand was a major influential founder of the modern Libertarian Movement that is indisputable.
    But am so glad I’ve got you yelping and yowling.
    Obviously touched a raw nerve there.
    Good.! Just what I wanted. Keep it up.
    The truth hurts.

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  126. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Pigeon chess.!!

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  127. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Correct , Rand was a major influential founder of the modern Libertarian Movement that is indisputable.”

    It is totally disputable. Rand was the founder of Objectivism.

    A far, far better candidate for any “founder” of the modern movement would be Murray Rothbard. Rothbard’s book “For A New Liberty” was vastly more influential than anything by Rand.

    You would know about Rothbard if you had actually done any serious research into the subject. But, I guess it’s easier just to pull drivel out of your ass, or out of Monbiot’s, and pretend that it’s an example of your intellectual superiority. :)

    Real intellectual grunt work requires reading books and knowing your subject, not mindlessly repeating a lefty journo’s opinions.

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  128. mikenmild (12,446 comments) says:

    Loonies who won’t quit:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/9870620/Fluoride-fight-goes-to-Court-of-Appeal

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  129. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    Shawn LH,

    “Real intelectual grunt work.”

    You could of fooled me.

    Detail if you can where your Rothbart precisely departs from Rand. ?
    Also how did Greenspan get things so wrong as a devoted follower of her.?
    “Objectivsim ” versus whatever. ? You see my point the Libertarian cult like the Marxist one splintering off into rival sects and denominations.
    Hilarious .!

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  130. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “You could of fooled me.”

    Easily, if your taken in by Monbiot.

    “Also how did Greenspan”

    Greenspan is not a libertarian either. Now repeat after me, one hundred times: Ayn Rand was not a Libertarian.

    “Detail if you can where your Rothbart precisely departs from Rand.”

    Read a book. Here, I’ll make it easier for you: https://mises.org/rothbard/foranewlb.pdf

    ““Objectivsim ” versus whatever. ? You see my point the Libertarian cult like the Marxist one splintering off into rival sects and denominations.”

    There was no “splintering” as Objectivism and Libertarianism are not and were not the same thing to begin with. Your talking about two different movements, not one movement splintering. Getting your facts wrong again.

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  131. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Rand condemned libertarianism as being a greater threat to freedom and capitalism than both modern liberalism and conservatism.[15] Rand regarded Objectivism as an integrated philosophical system. Libertarianism, in contrast, is a political philosophy which confines its attention to matters of public policy. For example, Objectivism argues positions in metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics, whereas libertarianism does not address such questions. Rand believed that political advocacy could not succeed without addressing what she saw as its methodological prerequisites. Rand rejected any affiliation with the libertarian movement and many other Objectivists have done so as well.[16]

    Rand said of libertarians that: “They’re not defenders of capitalism. They’re a group of publicity seekers…. Most of them are my enemies”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_and_Objectivism#Philosophical_disagreements

    The most any informed person could say is that there are some parallels between Libertarianism and Objectivism. But not a lot. They were and are two different movements.

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  132. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    Oh dear I think I’ve got you over a barrel with your darling Murray Rothbard who has used and abused his Libertarian thinking to justify racial discrimination. This is based on his support for the Bell Curve that postulates that variations in intelligence among races are based on genetics . He has gone on and supported Ron Paul in the 2008 Presidential campaign who used state rights ands Libertarianism to justify and rationalize racial and employment discrimination etc based on the individuals right to choose.
    Furthermore he has gone one step further praised and supported the likes of ex Klansman Dave Duke ,notorious conspiracy theorist and Holocaust denier.
    The guy’s a fruitcake.

    http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.nz/2010/07/murray-rothbard-lew-rockwell-and.html

    and Ron Paul cast his lot with extremists, conspiracists ,

    http://www.salon.com/2013/04/29/ron_paul_casts_lot_with_extremists_conspiracy_theorists_partner/

    Hmmmm…!

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  133. Weihana (4,621 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (658 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 2:18 pm

    Rothbard’s book “For A New Liberty” was vastly more influential than anything by Rand.

    Vastly more influential? This evaluation is not just a wee bit biased? :)

    From Rothbard’s Wiki page:


    In 1958, after the publication of her novel, Atlas Shrugged, Rothbard wrote a “fan letter” to Rand, calling her book “an infinite treasure house,” and “not merely the greatest novel ever written, [but] one of the very greatest books ever written, fiction or nonfiction.” He also wrote that “you introduced me to the whole field of natural rights and natural law philosophy,” prompting him to learn “the glorious natural rights tradition.”

    I don’t see a reference to Rothbard on Rand’s Wiki. The wiki for Atlas Shrugged details:


    Atlas Shrugged debuted on The New York Times Bestseller List at #13 three days after its publication. It peaked at #3 on December 8, 1957, and was on the list for 22 consecutive weeks.

    It goes on to detail it’s influence:


    In 1997, the libertarian Cato Institute held a joint conference with The Atlas Society, an Objectivist organization, to celebrate the fortieth anniversary of the publication of Atlas Shrugged.[56] At this event, Howard Dickman of Reader’s Digest stated that the novel had “turned millions of readers on to the ideas of liberty” and said that the book had the important message of the readers’ “profound right to be happy”.[56] In 2013 John Goedde, Chair of the Idaho Senate’s Education Committee, proposed that Atlas Shrugged be required reading for all Idaho high school students, with mandatory testing on the tome a requirement for high school graduation. Although legislation to that effect was introduced, the Senator had no plans to push the plan for adoption.[57]

    The C-SPAN television series American Writers listed Rand as one of twenty-two surveyed figures of American literature, though primarily mentioning The Fountainhead rather than Atlas Shrugged.[58]

    Rand’s impact on contemporary libertarian thought has been considerable; the title of the libertarian magazine, Reason: Free Minds, Free Markets, is taken directly from John Galt, the hero of Atlas Shrugged, who argues that “a free mind and a free market are corollaries”.

    It’s influence has also drawn negative reactions from prominent figures:


    Nobel Prize-winning economist and commentator Paul Krugman alluded to a quip[60][61] by John Rogers in his blog: “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”

    It has also enjoyed renewed attention in recent times:


    In the late 2000s, the book gained more media attention and conservative commentators suggested the book as a warning against a socialistic reaction to the finance crisis.

    BioShock, the critically acclaimed 2007 videogame is widely considered to be a deconstruction of Atlas Shrugged…

    Sales of Atlas Shrugged have increased since the 2007 financial crisis, according to The Economist magazine and The New York Times. The Economist reported that the fifty-two-year-old novel ranked #33 among Amazon.com’s top-selling books on January 13, 2009 and that its thirty-day sales average showed the novel selling three times faster than during the same period of the previous year. With an attached sales chart, The Economist reported that sales “spikes” of the book seemed to coincide with the release of economic data. Subsequently, on April 2, 2009, Atlas Shrugged ranked #1 in the “Fiction and Literature” category at Amazon and #15 in overall sales.[73][74][75] Total sales of the novel in 2009 exceeded 500,000 copies.[76] The book sold 445,000 copies in 2011, the second-strongest sales year in the novel’s history. At the time of publication, the novel was on The New York Times best-seller list and was selling at roughly a third the volume of 2011

    And of course lets not forget they’ve also recently turned the book into an awful movie!

    And for the wiki on Rothbard’s book?


    It is the only book for which Rothbard received a mainstream publishing contract.

    In 2006 the Ludwig von Mises Institute released a new hardbound edition, with a new introduction by Lew Rockwell.

    So one is a best-selling publication, receives anniversary celebrations, is regularly commented on both positively and negatively by large numbers of prominent figures (including a nobel prize winner), is adapted to other forms of entertainment and multimedia… but is less influential than the rather esoteric ‘For A New Liberty’?

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  134. Weihana (4,621 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (659 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 3:00 pm

    The most any informed person could say is that there are some parallels between Libertarianism and Objectivism. But not a lot. They were and are two different movements.

    Not really. Rand’s argument was that they had stolen her political ideas and discarded the philosophical justifications used to derive those conclusions. Ironic, but it was indicative of the personality-cult status of her following.

    In plain usage “libertarianism” is a broad term that encompasses many diverse ideologies and Objectivism would included in that.

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  135. Weihana (4,621 comments) says:

    stephieboy (851 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 2:40 pm

    Detail if you can where your Rothbart precisely departs from Rand. ?

    Rand belives government should exercise a monopoly on the use of force. Rothbard believes private protection agencies should compete in a free market.

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  136. Manolo (14,179 comments) says:

    For stephieboy, Obama lover: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/rumsfeld-us-ties-karzai-gone-downhill-toboggan-under-obama

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  137. Fletch (6,532 comments) says:

    I didn’t really know what to think of Ayn Rand, until the read the following piece that connects her work with that of Satanist Anton La Vey (author of the book The Satanic Bible)

    As you’ve probably guessed by this point, I’m not really talking about LaVey but about his mentor, Ayn Rand. The ascendency of LaVey and his embrace by “conservative” leaders would indeed cause paroxysms of indignation. Yet, while the two figures’ philosophies are nearly identical, Rand appears to have received a pass. Why is that?

    Perhaps most are unaware of the connection, though LaVey wasn’t shy about admitting his debt to his inspiration. “I give people Ayn Rand with trappings,” he once told the Washington Post . On another occasion he acknowledged that his brand of Satanism was “just Ayn Rand’s philosophy with ceremony and ritual added.” Indeed, the influence is so apparent that LaVey has been accused of plagiarizing part of his “Nine Satanic Statements” from the John Galt speech in Rand’s Atlas Shrugged .

    Devotees of Rand may object to my outlining the association between the two. They will say I am proposing “guilt by association,” a form of the ad hominem fallacy . But I am not attacking Rand for the overlap of her views with LaVey’s; I am saying that, at their core, they are the same philosophy . LaVey was able to recognize what many conservatives fail to see: Rand’s doctrines are satanic.

    […]

    But to be a follower of both Rand and Christ is not possible. The original Objectivist was a type of self-professed anti-Christ who hated Christianity and the self-sacrificial love of its founder. She recognized that those Christians who claimed to share her views didn’t seem to understand what she was saying.

    Many conservatives admire Rand because she was anti-collectivist. But that is like admiring Stalin because he opposed Nazism. Stalin was against the Nazis because he wanted to make the world safe for Communism. Likewise, Rand stands against collectivism because she wants the freedom to abolish Judeo-Christian morality. Conservative Christians who embrace her as the “enemy-of-my-enemy” seem to forget that she considered us the enemy.

    http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2011/06/the-fountainhead-of-satanism

    Some of Rand’s writings or books may appeal to conservatives, but I’d be careful of the underlying philosophies.

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  138. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    On another occasion he acknowledged that his brand of Satanism was “just Ayn Rand’s philosophy with ceremony and ritual added.”

    Another way of saying that unrestrained capitalism is just Satanism with the ceremony and ritual removed.

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  139. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Weihana,

    Yes, in terms of real influence on, and as an example of, actual libertarian thinking and policy, Rothbard wins easily. Atlas Shrugged was influential, but not in terms of serious policy. I would argue that the same would be true of Friedrich von Hayek vs Rand.

    That there are parallels between Objectivism and Libertarianism is true, but I disagree that the latter includes the former, as Objectivism is not a political philosophy. Moreover, libertarianism in it’s various forms has been around for a couple of hundred years at least, making Stephieboy’s claim about Rand ludicrous.

    But then stephieboy is intellectually lazy. Unable to make his own arguments, all he has done is cut and paste other peoples, because he has not bothered to read any primary sources, including Rand, has almost zero knowledge of what libertarianism is, and is happy to let other people think for him.

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  140. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    :lol:

    Muppet knows all the books.
    He just fails to connect the dots between his religion and free thinking.
    Always to stumble on the leap of faith.

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  141. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “He just fails to connect the dots between his religion and free thinking.”

    And what would they be Griff? Come on, I haven’t had a laugh since stephieboy’s last post ;)

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  142. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Has Lecher signed up with the obese German criminal yet? They both should be on the next flight out!

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  143. Ross12 (1,488 comments) says:

    What do they teach at schools these days ?

    http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/22171216/early-flu-jab-not-the-worst-idea/

    This article refers to a spring time epidemic starting in Hawkes Bay.

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  144. goldnkiwi (1,617 comments) says:

    Judith (5,358 comments) says:

    March 26th, 2014 at 8:15 am

    I am fascinated by ‘Judith’s’ opinion regarding the presumed proclivity of first time violent offenders not having to wait for third strikes let alone seconds. It makes me wonder what the ‘prognosis’ of former murderers would be if tried today before they killed again. For a minute there I thought ‘Judith’ was someone else. I have always thought ‘Judith’ an apologist for such types.
    Clearly ‘Judith’ is just misunderstood.

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  145. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, who built his house on a rock. The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it didn’t fall, for it was founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of mine, and doesn’t do them will be like a foolish man, who built his house on the sand. The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.

    Ignore your religious connotations and apply thought to the foundation of your reasoning .

    I wise man builds his world on the rock of reason.

    A foolish one builds his world on the sand of faith.

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  146. Fletch (6,532 comments) says:

    griff, you’re saying that faith are reason and opposites, yet I say they work together.

    In a 1941 lecture called “Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium,” prepared for a conference at the Jewish Theological Institute in New York, Albert Einstein gave insight into his view that both realms of religion and science are valid:

    Science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration towards truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

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  147. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Ignore your religious connotations and apply thought to the foundation of your reasoning”

    Man is not reason alone. Cartesian rationalism has ruled the West for a hundred years at least. It gave us two world wars, decades of being on the brink of nuclear annihilation, Communism, Fascism, and social democrat crony capitalism, all predicated on Cartesian rationalism. “Reason” has been the cry of most tyrants and tyrannies of the modern world.

    Reason is a tool, useful for some things, but dangerous when made the only source of truth, goodness and beauty.

    And observably, we are not reason alone. The depth and breadth of human experience, love, art, family, heroism, self-sacrifice, evil, goodness and faith cannot be adequately explained by reason alone.

    “A foolish one builds his world on the sand of faith.”

    A wise man builds on faith, reason and tradition. Any one alone becomes unbalanced and dangerous.

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  148. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Religious views of Albert Einstein
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion

    “The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”

    Einstein, who was Jewish and who declined an offer to be the state of Israel’s second president, also rejected the idea that the Jews are God’s favoured people.

    “For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything ‘chosen’ about them.”

    .

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  149. Fletch (6,532 comments) says:

    griff, I am well aware of Einstein’s beliefs. Although he didn’t believe in a personal God, per se, he still believed in God.
    For example, in a 1943 conversation with William Hermanns recorded in Hermanns’ book Einstein and the Poet, Einstein said: “As I have said so many times, God doesn’t play dice with the world.”

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  150. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    More on Murry Rothbart’s overtly racist sentiments,

    In his review of Herrnstein and Murray’s ‘The Bell Curve’, Murray Rothbard praised the book for “expressing in massively stupefying scholarly detail what everyone has always known but couldn’t dare to express about race, intelligence, and heritability”. Rothbard reached the following conclusion:

    Quote:
    SO: WHY TALK ABOUT RACE AT ALL?

    If, then, the Race Question is really a problem for statists and not for paleos, why should we talk about the race matter at all? Why should it be a political concern for us; why not leave the issue entirely to the scientists?

    Two reasons we have already mentioned; to celebrate the victory of freedom of inquiry and of truth for its own sake; and a bullet through the heart of the egalitarian-socialist project. But there is a third reason as well: as a powerful defense of the results of the free market. If and when we as populists and libertarians abolish the welfare state in all of its aspects, and property rights and the free market shall be triumphant once more, many individuals and groups will predictably not like the end result. In that case, those ethnic and other groups who might be concentrated in lower-income or less prestigious occupations, guided by their socialistic mentors, will predictably raise the cry that free-market capitalism is evil and “discriminatory” and that therefore collectivism is needed to redress the balance. In that case, the intelligence argument will become useful to defend the market economy and the free society from ignorant or self-serving attacks. In short; racialist science is properly not an act of aggression or a cover for oppression of one group over another, but, on the contrary, an operation in defense of private property against assaults by aggressors.

    Rothbard was proud to be a ‘racialist’ because racialism exposed the true source of inequality in a free market, namely genetics. A belief in biological racial inequality was, for Rothbard, part of the libertarian project, because racial inequality was simply how markets reflected nature.

    Thus why Libertarianism is inherently racist and also anti women’s rights.

    As you go more into Rothbard’s thinking the weirder and crankier it becomes.

    http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27189

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  151. nasska (12,111 comments) says:

    Gods don’t kill people.

    People with Gods kill people.

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  152. Steve (North Shore) (4,538 comments) says:

    Snap, Nasska

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  153. Reid (16,740 comments) says:

    People with Gods kill people.

    People who misinterpret God kill people.

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  154. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    All fucking kinds of people kill people.

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  155. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    all kinds of smegging isims kill people.

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  156. Pete George (23,833 comments) says:

    On odd 3 ‘news’ item tonight, includi8ng a build up on Twitter.

    Brooke Sabin had obviously been supplied with information and ‘surprised’ Kim Dotcom with a question about Nazi memorabilia.

    Dotcom explained that he had possibly the copy of Mein Kampf that had been signed by Hitler.

    So what? I think this was supposed to be a major revelation before the launch of the Internet Party tomorrow. I think it’s irrelevant.

    Dotcom’s Mein Kampf

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  157. Weihana (4,621 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (664 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 4:33 pm
    Weihana,

    Yes, in terms of real influence on, and as an example of, actual libertarian thinking and policy, Rothbard wins easily. Atlas Shrugged was influential, but not in terms of serious policy. I would argue that the same would be true of Friedrich von Hayek vs Rand.

    Serious policy? Privately owned streets? Privatized police forces? Surely you jest!

    The difference with Hayek is that, like Rand, he is also someone of broad influence. The road to serfdom was a best-seller, his writings are cited by many prominent economists and politicians, demonstrating the impact of the book.

    You seem to define “real influence” as appeal to some select group of self-identified ‘thinkers’, while ignoring the perhaps more subtle, but no less significant, influence of broad appeal to a mass audience.

    That there are parallels between Objectivism and Libertarianism is true, but I disagree that the latter includes the former, as Objectivism is not a political philosophy. Moreover, libertarianism in it’s various forms has been around for a couple of hundred years at least, making Stephieboy’s claim about Rand ludicrous.

    Rand’s point was that Libertarianism was a subset of Objectivism, but without the philosophical justification: e.g. non-aggression is taken as an axiom, rather than a derived principle.

    Also, it seems a stretch to say Libertarianism has been around for a couple hundred years by referencing the likes of Locke. That isn’t libertarianism.

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  158. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Thus why Libertarianism is inherently racist and also anti women’s rights.”

    Discussing racial differences is not inherently racist, except in the minds of those enslaved to the cult of Cultural Marxism. And how can a philosophy that espouses individual freedom be opposed to real women’s rights, unless of course your notion of women’s rights is the paternalistic misogyny that you now better how to run their lives?

    Still unable to come up with a rational argument of your own stephie? You can keep cutting and pasting other’s if you life, but don’t expect me to take you seriously.

    Did you read Rothbard himself? Nooo, that would be too much like real intellectual work now wouldn’t it. :)

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  159. Pete George (23,833 comments) says:

    However that may be only a small part of the story. Whale Oil has much more detail:

    Kim Dotcom: Owns rare copy of Mein Kampf, a Nazi flag & loves Adolf Hitler

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  160. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Pete,

    I’m no fab of DC but that story struck me as a beat up as well. He mentioned having a wide variety of war memorabilia, including stuff from Churchill and Stalin.

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  161. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Also, it seems a stretch to say Libertarianism has been around for a couple hundred years by referencing the likes of Locke. That isn’t libertarianism.”

    Look up any encyclopedia reference to libertarianism.

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  162. Reid (16,740 comments) says:

    Dotcom explained that he had possibly the copy of Mein Kampf that had been signed by Hitler…I think it’s irrelevant.

    I agree with you Pete. Some are commenting on Whale too but I bet TV3 didn’t mention that when Amazon posted Mein Kampf recently in Kindle format sales exploded, the explanation being that while people didn’t want it seen on their bookshelves they were happy to read it “privately.”

    I don’t go for it myself but the autograph market is huge and it covers everyone in every field. Hitler quite frankly is no different from anyone else and possession of his autograph is an investment same as any other.

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  163. Weihana (4,621 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (668 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 6:49 pm

    “Also, it seems a stretch to say Libertarianism has been around for a couple hundred years by referencing the likes of Locke. That isn’t libertarianism.”

    Look up any encyclopedia reference to libertarianism.

    Any encyclopedia reference to Ayn Rand will probably mention Aristotle. Doesn’t mean Aristotle was an Objectivist.

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  164. Fletch (6,532 comments) says:

    People who believe in God also help by way of schools, orphanages, hospitals, food banks, community outreach, charities, volunteering in homeless shelters, visiting prisoners, and the like.

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  165. Lucia Maria (2,660 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Hitler quite frankly is no different from anyone else and possession of his autograph is an investment same as any other.

    Nope, disagree. Seeking to profit from one of the most evil men alive says something about Dotcom. But then, the man is a slimeball anyway, this is just another confirmation.

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  166. nasska (12,111 comments) says:

    ….”People who believe in God also help by way of schools, orphanages, hospitals, food banks, community outreach, charities, volunteering in homeless shelters, visiting prisoners, and the like.”….

    They’re usually trying to build up a few Brownie points for when they’re off to meet Skydaddy. That & pushing their religious rubbish down the throats of those poor wretches in receipt of their time & beneficence.

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  167. mikenmild (12,446 comments) says:

    Fletch
    People who don’t believe in God also help by way of schools, orphanages, hospitals, food banks, community outreach, charities, volunteering in homeless shelters, visiting prisoners, and the like.

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  168. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Hitler : A Study in Tyranny by Alan Bullock,

    http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Study-Tyranny-Alan-Bullock/dp/0060920203

    J

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  169. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Book burning.
    Now were have we seen that before.
    Mein kampf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

    It’s just a book !

    Hitler had a pivotal role in our History.

    You must Examine his ideas if you seek to honestly reject them.

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  170. Weihana (4,621 comments) says:

    Reid,

    I don’t go for it myself but the autograph market is huge and it covers everyone in every field. Hitler quite frankly is no different from anyone else and possession of his autograph is an investment same as any other.

    A market for autographs does not exist by virtue of every signature being “no different from anyone else”.

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  171. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Any encyclopedia reference to Ayn Rand will probably mention Aristotle. Doesn’t mean Aristotle was an Objectivist.”

    Ideas are not static seperate entities that grow in a vacuum. They have roots.

    Private property anarchism has been around, in it’s modern forms at least, since the 18th century.

    “Jakob Mauvillon (8 March 1743 in Leipzig – 11 January 1794 in Braunschweig), son of Eleazar Mauvillon, was an 18th-century figure in German liberalism. He was of French Huguenot descent. He was a professor of politics at Brunswick. He advocated a radical laissez-faire philosophy, which included proposals for the privatisation of all the schools and the postal system, to be funded privately rather than by taxes. He speculated that the security functions of the state might also be voluntarily funded.

    Besides advocating laissez-faire in economic matters he also “expresses a radical libertarianism that centers on freedom of the press and expression” as revealed in a letter to the librarian of the Herzog August Bibliothek in Wolfenbüttel, Ernst Theodor Langer. “

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  172. wikiriwhis business (4,209 comments) says:

    ““Corporate financial gain” is a slogan rather than a serious attempt to understand environmental issues.”

    Someone is still living in the 20th Century and never heard of Greece, the broken EU, Libor, bankrupt US, Bernie Madoff …..

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  173. Reid (16,740 comments) says:

    Nope, disagree. Seeking to profit from one of the most evil men alive says something about Dotcom.

    Lucia you can apply precisely the same logic to oil companies, armaments, banks, mining, food (that uses GM), etc etc etc if you’re so high-minded.

    Since capitalism doesn’t give a f*** about how to make money only that you’re a winner if you make it and you’re a loser if you don’t, then he’s just playing the game, same as the property developers who legally put widows and orphans onto the street then go and have a nice meal at an expensive restaurant.

    Simple as that.

    Fact is, capitalism is not shades of grey, it’s a rubicon, and once you cross it, then it’s fine and if you don’t, you don’t. Otherwise for example, why not outlaw the sale of autographed books from all sorts of baddies from history, from Peter the Great, to Vlad the Impaler, to Hitler, to Stalin, to Churchill, to Eisenhower, to “Bomber” Harris, etc etc etc. That’s simply the logical extension of your argument, sorry to say. And if you don’t know what Churchill and Eisenhower did, then read history from sources other than Western sources.

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  174. Fletch (6,532 comments) says:

    People who don’t believe in God also help by way of schools, orphanages, hospitals, food banks, community outreach, charities, volunteering in homeless shelters, visiting prisoners, and the like.

    That is true, but it wasn’t always. It was the Church that started the first charities, universities, hospitals (the Knights of St John), hostels and the like. You could say that the Catholic Church invented charity, as we know it, in the West.

    http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=jYvmAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=how%20the%20catholic%20church%20built%20western%20civilization&pg=PA171#v=onepage&q=how%20the%20catholic%20church%20built%20western%20civilization&f=false

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  175. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Someone is still living in the 20th Century and never heard of Greece, the broken EU, Libor, bankrupt US, Bernie Madoff …..”

    I was responding to Ryan who used the phrase in the context of environmental degradation. My point was that environmental issues are too complex to lay solely at the feet of corporations.

    I was not saying corporations never do dumb or bad things, though Greece had more to do with direct democracy and the greed for bread and circuses of the Greek voter.

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  176. Reid (16,740 comments) says:

    A market for autographs does not exist by virtue of every signature being “no different from anyone else”.

    Yeah it’s vapid celebrity culture no matter who it is Weihana, that’s why I personally don’t go for it. But billions of others do and that’s what I was saying.

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  177. mikenmild (12,446 comments) says:

    Fletch
    You seem to imply that people weren’t nice to each other before Jesus.

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  178. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    Shawn LH, you don’t wish to face reality of Rothbard’s thinking much of which is rooted in racist genetic thinking.the glorious Libertarian rationalization to keep the poor ,poor and races unequal.
    Read ny links more carefully please that exposes his fraudulence.

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  179. Fletch (6,532 comments) says:

    mm, not that they weren’t nice. It’s just that people tended to think of themselves and the idea of giving to those worse off than you and expecting nothing in return seemed strange.

    Just as important as the sheer volume of Catholic charity was the qualitative difference that separated the Church’s charity from what had preceded it. It would be foolish to deny that some noble sentiments were voiced by the great ancient philosophers when it came to philanthropy, or that men of wealth made impressive and substantial voluntary contributions to their communities. The wealthy were expected to finance baths, public buildings, and all manner of public entertainment. Pliny the Younger, for example, was far from alone in endowing his hometown with a school and a library.

    Yet for all the benefactions thus offered, the spirit of giving in the ancient world was in a certain sense deficient when set against that of the Church. Most ancient giving was self-interested rather than purely gratuitous. The buildings financed by the wealthy prominently displayed their names. Donors gave what they did either to put the recipients in their debt or to call attention to themselves and their great liberality. That those in need were to be served with a cheerful heart and provided for without thought of reward or reciprocity was certainly not the governing principle.

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  180. wikiriwhis business (4,209 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/30029074/jimmy-carter-fears-us-monitoring

    Former US President Jimmy Carter says intelligence monitoring has run out of control since the 9/11 terror attacks, and he now hand-writes and mails sensitive letters to foreign and American leaders because he can’t trust his email or telephone to be secure.

    He had begun this practice well before National Security Agency contract worker Edward Snowden leaked a trove of documents last year. The documents disclosed that the NSA was archiving the meta-data on telephone calls and emails and had secretly tapped into the main communications links that connect Yahoo and Google data centres around the world.

    “I don’t think there’s any doubt now that the NSA or other agencies monitor or record almost every telephone call made in the United States, including cellphones, and I presume email as well,” Carter told The Associated Press in an interview. “We’ve gone a long way down the road of violating Americans’ basic civil rights, as far as privacy is concerned.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/30029074/jimmy-carter-fears-us-monitoring

    This old man lives in the 21st century as opposed to so many Kiwi bloggers who still can’t see the conspiracy.

    If your private communications are being compromised and recorded that is conspiracy……..igor

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  181. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

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  182. nasska (12,111 comments) says:

    Fletch

    Have you ever read any of Charles Dicken’s books?

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  183. wikiriwhis business (4,209 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60029681/brazils-internet-constitution-clears-house

    Brazil’s lower chamber of Congress has approved groundbreaking legislation aimed at guaranteeing equal access to the Internet and protecting the privacy of its users in the wake of US spying revelations.

    To ensure passage of the bill, the government had to drop a contentious provision that would have forced global internet companies to store data on Brazilian servers inside the country.

    The rule was added last year to proposed internet governance legislation after revelations that the US National Security Agency had spied on the personal communications of Brazilians, including those of President Dilma Rousseff.

    Instead, the bill says companies such as Google and Facebook are subject to Brazilian laws and courts in cases involving information on Brazilians, even if the data is stored on servers abroad.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60029681/brazils-internet-constitution-clears-house

    Whole nations comprehend what Kiwi Bloggers fail to grasp and the joke is they use anti spy technology but deny conspiracy. lmao

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  184. wikiriwhis business (4,209 comments) says:

    “Fletch

    Have you ever read any of Charles Dicken’s books?”

    Dickens wrote from a passion against the conspiracy of child labour

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  185. Reid (16,740 comments) says:

    Reid, Hitler : A Study in Tyranny by Alan Bullock

    stephie, I see Shane’s seen through your vapid analyses on Libertarianism, you really need to educate yourself. Lord Denning the great English jurist did this when a humble defense counsel by first preparing the case for the prosecution then preparing his own.

    Truth doesn’t always lie on one side and most people never even bother to learn other sides once they’ve obtained to their own satisfaction “truth” in a given issue. Particularly when the braying crowd agrees.

    You seem earnest although young and I therefore offer you Denning’s advice, and I tell you that if you apply it, as I have for coming up to thirty years, worlds will open to you that you never dreamed existed.

    Hitler’s a hard, very hard topic. But this is another side to him that the brayers will never know, because they think, confidently but falsely, that they already do.

    http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/

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  186. wikiriwhis business (4,209 comments) says:

    “Hitler’s a hard, very hard topic.”

    Hitler was a product of US eugenisists such as Margaret Sanger and Henry Ford who helped propel the Nazi Party to power.

    Hitler kept a photo of Ford on his office desk

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  187. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Stephie,

    “Shawn LH, you don’t wish to face reality of Rothbard’s thinking much of which is rooted in racist genetic thinking.the glorious Libertarian rationalization to keep the poor ,poor and races unequal.”

    Arguing for voluntary association is about everyone’s freedom. Liberal collectivism is about white, upper middle class, liberal Westerners wanting to dictate to everyone else, including the poor and other races, how to live and what to think.

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  188. mikenmild (12,446 comments) says:

    Not really interested in watching Reid’s latest film – probably holocaust denial and Hitler-worship.

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  189. nasska (12,111 comments) says:

    An old Minister was dying. He sent a message for his Accountant and his Lawyer (both church members), to come to his home.

    When they arrived, they were ushered up to his bedroom. As they entered the room, the Minister held out his hands and motioned for them to sit on each side of the bed. Then he grasped their hands, sighed contentedly, smiled and stared at the ceiling.

    For a time, no one said anything. Both the Accountant and Lawyer were touched and flattered that the old Minister would ask them to be with him during his final moment.

    They were also puzzled because he had never given any indication that he particularly liked either one of them.

    Finally, the Lawyer asked “Why did you ask the two of us to come?” The old Minister mustered up some strength, then said weakly “Jesus died between two thieves and that’s how I want to go, too.

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  190. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    MM
    Would you be offended to see Mao, Hitler, Alinsky, Marx, Frued, Mason, Hite. On A thinkers book shelf ?

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  191. mikenmild (12,446 comments) says:

    No, not at all.

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  192. Lucia Maria (2,660 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Lucia you can apply precisely the same logic to oil companies, armaments, banks, mining, food (that uses GM), etc etc etc if you’re so high-minded.

    Hitler wanted to wipe my race off the face of the earth, so … no, disagree that I could apply precisely the same logic to the list you give.

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  193. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    http://www.salon.com/2014/03/25/10853_out_of_10855_scientists_agree_man_made_global_warming_is_happening/
    As geochemist James Lawrence Powell continues to prove, the only people still debating whether or not climate change is “real,” and caused by human activity, are the ones who aren’t doing the actual research. In an update to his ongoing project of reviewing the literature on global warming, Powell went through every scientific study published in a peer-review journal during the calendar year 2013, finding 10,855 in total (more on his methodology here). Of those, a mere two rejected anthropogenic global warming

    “But many of the extreme events of 2013 were consistent with what we would expect as a result of human-induced climate change. We saw heavier precipitation, more intense heat, and more damage from storm surges and coastal flooding as a result of sea-level rise – as Typhoon Haiyan so tragically demonstrated in the Philippines,” he said.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/evidence-for-humaninduced-climate-change-grows-as-2013-is-revealed-as-the-sixthhottest-on-record-9212971.html
    The WMO’s annual assessment of the global weather found that 2013 was the sixth warmest year on record – tied with 2007 – and that there was no let-up in global warming. 13 of the 14 warmest years have occurred since 2000 and each of the last three decades have been warmer than the previous one, with the decade 2001-2010 being the warmest on record, the WMO said.

    “There is no standstill in global warming. The warming of our oceans has accelerated, and at lower depths. More than 90 per cent of the excess energy trapped by greenhouse gases is stored in the oceans,” Dr Jarraud said.

    “Levels of these greenhouse gases are at record levels, meaning that our atmosphere and oceans will continue to warm for centuries to come. The laws of physics are non-negotiable,” he warned.

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  194. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Lucia Maria (1,958 comments) says:
    March 26th, 2014 at 7:05 pm

    I agree with Reid on this one. Owning an item of historical interest is NOT supporting that behaviour.

    Considering the profit made from such objects, it is actually very wise business practice.

    I have a bible from the 18th century – you can rest assured I do not advocate some of the practices suggested in the old testament.

    P.S. and yes, my mothers family has jewish ancestry too – and it makes no difference. Her uncle made a great deal of money selling War memorabilia.

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  195. publicwatchdog (3,162 comments) says:

    FYI Kiwibloggers

    All sorted for the nation-wide rallies against the signing of the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) this Saturday 29 March 2014 at 1pm?

    (I’ll be in Hamilton, but have been helping to organise the Auckland event :)

    More details here:

    http://www.itsourfuture.org.nz/why-our-sponsors-are-supporting-the-nationwide-day-of-action/

    Cheers!

    Penny Bright

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  196. griffith (1,111 comments) says:


    1.26

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  197. nasska (12,111 comments) says:

    Bedtime story for the brainwashed. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5dhsnprw4cdd192/Faith%2014.jpg

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  198. publicwatchdog (3,162 comments) says:

    FYI Kiwibloggers ……….

    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    26 March 2014

    ‘Open Letter’ reply to Auckland Mayor Len Brown, Chair of the Auckland Council Governing Body – re: the following response I received yesterday to my request for speaking rights at tomorrow’s meeting:

    Thank you for for accepting my request for ‘speaking rights’ at tomorrow’s Governing Body meeting.

    However, I note that some person / persons from Auckland Council are attempting to restrict what I can say, about the four complaints which I filed with Auckland Central Police:

    “Your request for speaking rights at the 27 March Governing Body meeting has been accepted but only to talk about issues 2) and 3).

    It has been decided that it is not appropriate for you to talk about any complaints being handled by the Police at the Governing Body meeting.”

    I do not accept that ANY person at Auckland Council has the lawful right to attempt to censor or restrict my LAWFUL right to freedom of expression, as guaranteed under s.14 of the NZ Bill of Rights Act 1990:

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM225513.html

    14 Freedom of expression

    Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, including the freedom to seek, receive, and impart information and opinions of any kind in any form.
    ___________________________________________________________________________

    FYI – Police have made determinations in the first three out of four of the above-mentioned complaints, and I am still awaiting their decision on the fourth.

    None of these matters are before the Court.

    I am unsure as to whom has made the decision that “…it is not appropriate for you to talk about any complaints being handled by the Police at the Governing Body meeting ..”

    however, I do not accept this decision as being LAWFUL, so please be advised that I WILL briefly covering these matters:

    1) An update on four complaints that I filed with Police:

    a) Alleged money-laundering against Mayor Len Brown.

    b) Alleged bribery and corruption against Mayor Len Brown (a joint complaint with fellow community Public Watchdog Lisa Prager).

    c) Alleged contravention of statute by former Auckland Council CEO, Doug McKay.

    d) Alleged assault against Auckland Council Officers who forcibly removed me from the CEO Review Committee meeting after I was denied speaking rights by Chair Chris Fletcher, when I was attempting to expose, (in my considered opinion), a corrupt ‘conflict of interest’ involving current CEO Stephen Town.

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    FYI – please be reminded of the following declaration that ALL Auckland Council elected representatives swore (affirmed) at the public ‘swearing in ceremony’ on 29 October 2013:

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM175643.html

    Conduct of members
    14Declaration by member
    (1)A person may not act as a member of a local authority until—
    (a)that person has, at a meeting of the local authority following the election of that person, made an oral declaration in the form set out in subclause (3); and
    (b)a written version of the declaration has been attested as provided under subclause (2).
    ………………..
    (3)The form of the declaration must consist of the following elements:

    Declaration by mayor or chairperson or member

    “I, AB, declare that I will faithfully and impartially, and according to the best of my skill
    and judgment, execute and perform, in the best interests of [region or district], the powers,
    authorities, and duties vested in, or imposed upon, me as [mayor or chairperson or
    member] of the [local authority] by virtue of the Local Government Act 2002, the
    Local Government Official Information and Meetings Act 1987, or any other Act

    Dated at: [place, date]
    Signature:
    Signed in the presence of:
    CD, [mayor or chairperson or member or chief executive of local authority]”.

    _____________________________________________________________________________

    (My underlining).

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

    Attendee: 2009 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference
    Attendee: 2010 Transparency International Anti-Corruption Conference
    Attendee: 2013 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference

    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz

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  199. nasska (12,111 comments) says:

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz

    You left off http://www.livinginatent.org.nz :)

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  200. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    the TPPA will be used so that Chinese Communists take over and run the milk industry

    by cooking up fake claims

    They will run and own Fonterra soon enough

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  201. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/

    Woo Hooo
    is that is

    Hey brother don’t fancy your chances getting through the next one

    wooped de sh8t

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  202. ChrisM (109 comments) says:

    For those that claim that there needs to be a massive increase in the minimum wage, this is the likely consequence of that option

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/your-new-fast-food-worker-a-robot/

    No doubt the counter- responses will be emotive, not factual.

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  203. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    Reid, Oh dear you’ve got it really bad, really bad with your wacko and woo. The Greatest story ever told: Adolf Hitler.I note a couple of items of real woo , the discredited Leuchter Report ( Holocaust denial ) and the Belgian Leon Degrelle ( ex SS and Nazi apologists whilst declaring with the creature comforts in post war Spain that his only regret was that Hitler did not win the war.You too evidently agree.
    Let me recommend some real history ,not the bogus and fantasy kind you dish up,

    The Coming of the Third Reich Trilogy by Professor Richard Evans ( Cambridge )

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Reich_Trilogy

    and Sir Ian Kershaw,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Kershaw

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  204. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    The pseudo scientific report by execution technician Fred Luechter about the Auschwitz gas chambers was exposed at the Enst Zundel trial by the trial judge. He identified serious shortcomings in Luechter’s methodology and very qualifications to undertake such a study,

    Excerpt,

    Before Leuchter could do this, he was examined by the court. It soon became apparent that Leuchter’s credentials were seriously lacking. He admitted that he was not a toxicologist and dismissed the need for having a degree in engineering, to which the judge responded abruptly:
    THE COURT: How do you function as an engineer if you don’t have an engineering degree?
    THE WITNESS: Well, I would question, Your Honour, what an engineering degree is. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree and I have the required background training both on the college level and in the field to perform my function as an engineer.
    THE COURT: Who determines that? You?
    —Exchange between Leuchter and Judge Thomas, Her Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zündel, District Court of Ontario 1988, p. 8973.[2]:164
    Leuchter admitted under oath that he only had a bachelor of arts degree and implicitly suggested that an engineering degree was unavailable to him by saying that his college did not offer an engineering degree during his studies. Boston University actually offered three different kinds of such qualification when he was a student there.[2]:165 The defence continued to obfuscate Leuchter’s credentials. When asked by the court if the B.A. he obtained was in a field that entitled him to operate as an engineer, he confirmed that this was so, even though his degree was in history.[2]:165 Similarly, Leuchter claimed that he obtained most of his research material on the camps (including original crematoria blueprints) from the Auschwitz and Majdanek camps’ archives, and testified that these documents had a far more important role in shaping his conclusions than the physical samples he collected did, yet after the trial the director of the Auschwitz museum categorically denied that Leuchter had received any plans or blueprints.[2]:165
    Judge Ronald Thomas began to label Leuchter’s methodology as “ridiculous” and “preposterous”, dismissing many of the report’s conclusions on the basis that they were based on “second-hand information”, and refused to allow him to testify on the effect of Zyklon B on humans because he had never worked with the substance, and was neither a toxicologist nor a chemist.[2]:166 Judge Thomas dismissed Leuchter’s opinion because it was of “no greater value than that of an ordinary tourist”, and in regards to Leuchter’s opinion said:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuchter_report

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  205. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    As bad as the Third Reich was

    what came into the Pacific WW2 was as bad

    it was just stopped or prevented

    and that is the only cure

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  206. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “Not really interested in watching Reid’s latest film – probably holocaust denial and Hitler-worship.”

    Yup. Had a brief look and that pretty much sums it up.

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  207. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    Well Reid has just become persona non grata to me at least. I do not abide Hitler apologists and Holocaust deniers.

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  208. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    What’s funny about Libertarianism is that it is compatible with almost any form of government up to and including full communism and tyranny. Most Libertarians don’t consider this, because they mistakenly think that adopting Libertarian principles would lead naturally to capitalism.

    The fact is that anyone who held a full property right may specify any conditions he likes when selling or giving it away. For example, anyone can leave their property to any other person they want to and add any number of ridiculous conditions they like (like using it to found a home for lost cats). If the other person wants the property, they have to agree to the conditions, otherwise they violate the rights of the giver. You can construct any political system you like on the basis of this principle as long as the history of ownership permits it. Only the original appropriators of land have full property rights over it, and others do only if the full rights were traded to them, but hardly any ruler ever went that far. Feudalism is a classic example of that.

    More to the point, pretty much all the property rights we actually have to things like land are conditional rights like this, since full rights were only possessed by people like kings and collectives like tribes in the past, and have been passed on to us as a collective as democratic nations. The sovereign has granted you extensive use rights (not full property rights, but conditional ones) over any land you acquire in free exchange with others, with the proviso that all living within the geographical boundary of New Zealand must acknowledge the sovereignty of the government, it’s monopoly on force and it’s right to levy taxes. If you don’t like that, you can sell up and get off its property. The government could tax you 100% for the privilege of living in New Zealand and you would have no right to complain, since you reside on land that is ultimately owned by the state.

    Libertarianism is a theoretical curiosity. Nothing more.

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  209. Ryan Sproull (7,361 comments) says:

    What’s funny about Libertarianism is that it is compatible with almost any form of government up to and including full communism and tyranny. Most Libertarians don’t consider this, because they mistakenly think that adopting Libertarian principles would lead naturally to capitalism.

    Well, it’s only relatively recently that “libertarian” has meant to anyone anything other than “socialist opposed to authority, including capitalism”. I guess that’s a funny thing about Libertarianism, that people mistakenly think that libertarianism is not opposed to capitalism.

    The fact is that anyone who held a full property right may specify any conditions he likes when selling or giving it away. For example, anyone can leave their property to any other person they want to and add any number of ridiculous conditions they like (like using it to found a home for lost cats). If the other person wants the property, they have to agree to the conditions, otherwise they violate the rights of the giver. You can construct any political system you like on the basis of this principle as long as the history of ownership permits it. Only the original appropriators of land have full property rights over it, and others do only if the full rights were traded to them, but hardly any ruler ever went that far. Feudalism is a classic example of that.

    More to the point, pretty much all the property rights we actually have to things like land are conditional rights like this, since full rights were only possessed by people like kings and collectives like tribes in the past, and have been passed on to us as a collective as democratic nations. The sovereign has granted you extensive use rights (not full property rights, but conditional ones) over any land you acquire in free exchange with others, with the proviso that all living within the geographical boundary of New Zealand must acknowledge the sovereignty of the government, it’s monopoly on force and it’s right to levy taxes. If you don’t like that, you can sell up and get off its property. The government could tax you 100% for the privilege of living in New Zealand and you would have no right to complain, since you reside on land that is ultimately owned by the state.

    Libertarianism is a theoretical curiosity. Nothing more.

    …actually not a bad explanation of why libertarianism is opposed to capitalism – private ownership of capital distinct from possession and use of capital, enforceable only through State violence or some other form of authoritarian violence. Nice work, Tom.

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  210. EAD (1,454 comments) says:

    Ahhhhh yes Government, that great fictitious entity with a monopoly on violence in which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else.

    After much considered thinking over the years I’ve come to the conclusion that Government and it’s false paradigms is the institution that makes two dogs fight for a bone (left vs. right), while the third (the powerful and well-connected) runs away with it

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  211. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    “What’s funny about Libertarianism is that it is compatible with almost any form of government up to and including full communism and tyranny. ”

    Full communism would mean no property rights.

    Your rather bizarre claim may be true of some forms of “Libertarian” socialism, which give lip service to freedom, but are prepared to override that in the violent pursuit of economic equality, but Rothbardian Libertarianism is based on the Non-Aggression principle which precludes any kind of State violence and tyranny. A society that was communist or fascist would therefore not be Libertarian, or in any way compatible with Libertarianism as that term is understood today.

    The basic mistake in your analysis is to start in the wrong place, with an end (in your case property rights), rather than a moral/ethical principle upon which everything else must stand. This is the same mistake most people on KB make. They start with an end, and then ride roughshod over moral principles by justifying any means to get to that end. This is true of most of the Capitalists here as well as the Socialists, Democracy proponents, and Left Wing Anarchists.

    In almost every post here by most of the commentators, people are justifying the means by the ends.

    Rothbardian Libertarianism, which is the only true political philosophy of freedom, does not make that mistake. It starts with a moral principle, and rejects any means to freedom or rights or any other good, that does not conform to that principle. It is the only moral political philosophy represented at KB. All other’s are just various excuses for tyranny and violence, or are so weak in their moral foundations that for all the talk of justice and freedom, tyranny and violence are the likely result.

    The Non-aggression principle is that it is always wrong for any person, or group of persons, to initiate force against any other. This precludes any kind of tyrannical government or violence.

    “The government could tax you 100% for the privilege of living in New Zealand and you would have no right to complain, since you reside on land that is ultimately owned by the state.”

    The State claims ownership, but this claim is not moral, it is a form of theft.

    “Libertarianism is a theoretical curiosity. Nothing more.”

    The same would have been said about democracy a few hundred years ago.

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  212. ShawnLH (6,707 comments) says:

    It should also be noted that the NZ States claim to “Democratic” ownership rests not on the consent of the governed, but on having invaded and stolen the land from previous owners. Democracy is often a cover for tyranny and violence.

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