General Debate 28 March 2014

March 28th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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260 Responses to “General Debate 28 March 2014”

  1. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    Well another week has just gone by – where most of Wellington spent their precious time turning the simple into the stupidly complex. Well done.

    All that has changed in that place over the last week is the temperature of the wind – but then that’s all that Wellington has ever been known for. :cool:

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  2. Longknives (4,951 comments) says:

    I’d often wondered about what sort of absolute moron would be dumb enough to trust Kim Dotcom with anything..
    Today I found out-

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11227077

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  3. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (3,934 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 8:00 am

    Yep, the wind produced in Wellington is amazing – both types of wind!

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  4. Yvette (2,758 comments) says:

    Kim Dotcom’s total commitment at the moment seems to be towards installing a Minister of Justice who could veto his extradition, if such is decided, or to be involved in some kingmaker scenario where the same bottom-line demand can be made – in other words, adding political corruption to the 72 page US indictment already issued against him.

    “We’re going to change the election outcome by changing what the election is about.”
    – Kim Dotcom

    We know, Kim

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  5. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    I could only read the first few lines of the Pam Corkery article before I started feeling sick. Remarkably stupid, even from Corkery. Apparently in Corkery’s world KDC is a victim of evil big business.

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  6. Bovver (173 comments) says:

    At least our wind is 100% natural clean green wind, not like that canned shit the aussie’s use.

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  7. Monique Angel (297 comments) says:

    There seems to be a growing travel and lifestyle blogging element over here on Kiwiblog. Thought I should share:
    http://www.enlightenedhousewife.com/2014/03/turn-turn-turn/

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  8. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    So who wants to compare DotCon and his book Mein Kampf – to Mr Craig and His book the Bible! :cool:

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  9. seanmaitland (501 comments) says:

    Taxpayers Union slags off Steven Joyce, and in their response come out with a vacuous statement, about the opportunity cost taking jobs from the economy – with nothing to back it up. What an embarrassment – I thought these guys were meant to have even a tiny bit of economic knowledge?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9877103/Taxpayers-Union-slags-Americas-Cup-spend

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  10. Manolo (14,164 comments) says:

    Surely, Corkery must be looking for a generous “grant” or “donation” from the obese German.

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  11. redqueen (595 comments) says:

    @Harriet

    One is an egotist who owns a book written by a mass-murderer…the other isn’t very politically adept and has a book which has been ‘revised’ so many times that its intention has been lost?

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  12. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “and has a book which has been ‘revised’ so many times that its intention has been lost?”

    It hasn’t been “revised”. Your confusing updating the language with changing the content.

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  13. calendar girl (1,258 comments) says:

    Mayor Len Brown, after stepping in and promising publicly to fix the funding problem of Auckland’s Rescue Helicopter Trust (in return for the latter withdrawing its legal challenge), has himself now voted in favour of his Council cutting the Trust’s funding: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11227794 .

    The Herald item includes “He said he had no real option but to accept the recommendations of the funding board given the legislation which set it up to allocate ratepayers’ money to 10 amenities.”

    Pity that he won’t also follow the recommendation of the Auckland public that he should resign as a result of his own disgraceful behaviour.

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  14. eszett (2,450 comments) says:

    Harriet (3,935 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 8:45 am
    So who wants to compare DotCon and his book Mein Kampf – to Mr Craig and His book the Bible!

    Does Colin have a signed edition one?

    And there is quite a bit of killing and genocide preformed by its author going on in that book as well.

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  15. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Kim Dotcom has said again that he has an electorate MP (not Harawira) is committed to jumping to the Internet Party. It would have to be a National ((unlikely) or Labour MP.

    If he’s to be believed this means an MP has gone through the candidate selection process and intends to continue representing their party and their electorate under false pretenses with the intention of betrayal in June. This would be a preposterous situation.

    If Dotcom is telling the truth the Internet Party would acquire a severely tainted MP. And if he is overstating his case that will be a major embarrassment.

    Three month betrayal for Labour MPs?

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  16. bringbackdemocracy (429 comments) says:

    Political parties associated with Dotcom
    Labour
    Greens
    NZ First
    Mana
    Act

    Parties NOT associated with Dotcom
    National
    Conservatives
    Maori
    United Future

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  17. Keeping Stock (9,373 comments) says:

    @ Yvette – the irony is that he’s not even being subtle about his attempts to subvert the electoral process. But I guess that there are enough suckers who think that he’s the Messiah (as opposed to a very naughty boy) to give him that opportunity.

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  18. James Stephenson (2,265 comments) says:

    So who wants to compare DotCon and his book Mein Kampf – to Mr Craig and His book the Bible!

    Colin’s lost 30kg and looks very well on it…come on Kim, show us you’re the biggest loser!

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  19. Rick Rowling (816 comments) says:

    It hasn’t been “revised”. Your confusing updating the language with changing the content.

    Which version do you have? The Catholic one or the (7 books shorter) Protestant one?

    Constantine’s or King James’?

    Arian or Nicene?

    Does it include the Gospel of Thomas?

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  20. wreck1080 (3,999 comments) says:

    i was surprised to read Blues rugby doctor saying that the fact Piri Weepu played rugby was a good thing otherwise his stroke may not have been detected.

    I’m surprised though, I’d have thought rugby could have caused the stroke. Also, why are they even considering that weepu will play again?

    While i’m no doctor, I can say that if Id had a stroke and the doc said I can play again I’d laugh the doc out the door.

    Docs told me I could return to sports a month after injuring my knee. . . so, I did that and stuffed my knee again – it appears that a ruptured acl does not fix itself, thanks doc. Shows what the doctors know!!!

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  21. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    INVESTIGATED: Another JP Morgan Linked Banker

    Families of young JPMorgan Chase workers who have experienced tragic deaths over the past four months, have been kept in the dark on many details, including the fact that the bank most likely held a life insurance policy on their loved one – payable to itself. Banks in the U.S., as well as other corporations, are allowed to make multi-billion dollar wagers that their profits from life insurance policies on employees will outstrip the cost of paying premiums and other fees. Early deaths help those wagers pay off.

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  22. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Which version do you have? The Catholic one or the (7 books shorter) Protestant one?”

    Both, but the differences between them are minimal. The only books on that list are in the Old Testament, not the new, and contain nothing of doctrinal significance.

    “Constantine’s or King James’?”

    No such difference. And Constantine did not authorize any Bible.

    “Arian or Nicene?” Both used the same Bible.

    “Does it include the Gospel of Thomas?”

    Why would it? The Gnostics wrote their material long after Scripture, and they were an entirely different religion. You may as well ask if it includes the Bahgavad Gita or Pride and Prejudice.

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  23. Ed Snack (1,937 comments) says:

    Shawn, no, the various gnostic books are contemporaneous with the gospels which in written form date from mid-late second century. It is conjectured on textual grounds that the synoptics all derive from a single earlier presumed written source often referred to as the “Q” gospel, but no version of this has survived. The various Pauline letters and the letters of James are the earliest written parts of the new Testament. Acts is also early in origin but it has been heavily edited. Different sections of the early church (post the Pauline revolution) used different texts in the NT, it was around 300 that the “official” canon emerged.

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  24. Manolo (14,164 comments) says:

    Chastising the Kenyan: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/condi-rice-blasts-obama-weakness-leadership_786123.html

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  25. Grant (286 comments) says:

    Freudian slip from Cunliffe on Twitter:

    “Yesterday with Whangarei Mayor Sheryl Mai & FND Councillor Willow-Jean Prime taking jobs. https://www.labour.org.nz/economic-upgrade/forestry-and-wood-products … pic.twitter.com/GppVni6aDa”

    Whose jobs got taken one wonders?

    G

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  26. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    Manolo, just recall who the former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice served under please and you’ll understand the drift of her rhetoric . Didn’t she have something to do with the invasion and occupation of Iraq.?
    I note that a large part of the article from the conservative blog is taken about her possible options re next Presidential elections. Now could that be a problem for you.? Also am confident that Condolezza does not share your seriously deluded ideas about the US born President of the USA.
    BTW what exactly should the President be doing about the Ukraine ? A D Day styled invasion of the beaches of the Crimea.?
    Thoughts.?

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  27. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    Harriet (3,936 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 8:45 am

    So who wants to compare DotCon and his book Mein Kampf – to Mr Craig and His book the Bible!

    I understand that Colin Craig does not describe himself as a church goer.
    Can you clarify.?

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  28. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    The Gnostics wrote their material long after Scripture, and they were an entirely different religion.

    They weren’t entirely different. Paul’s description of the conflict between the flesh and the spirit is similar to that of the Gnostics.

    For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Galatians 5:17

    The rejection of flesh can be seen in the first article of Anglican religion:

    I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions;

    The Anglican article contradicts Genesis 1-18; you can’t eat food if you don’t have a physical body.

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  29. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    Ed,

    “Shawn, no, the various gnostic books are contemporaneous with the gospels which in written form date from mid-late second century.”

    Which means much later than the NT, not contemporaneous.

    ” Different sections of the early church (post the Pauline revolution) used different texts in the NT, it was around 300 that the “official” canon emerged.”

    This is a misleading statement. The core of the NT was in common use well before 300, and while not “official” an identifiable common cannon was generally accepted by most Bishops by the second century and was already in use well before that.

    “Q” is not relevant to the Gnostics. Gnosticism most likely originated in Persia, though there is some speculation it may have come from India as a variant of Buddhism. The Gnostic’s adopted whatever local religious culture they found themselves in.

    Asking why the Church “excluded” Gnostic writings is like asking Peter Jackson why he “excluded” the Star Wars trilogy from LOTR.

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  30. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    ” A D Day styled invasion of the beaches of the Crimea.?
    Thoughts.?”

    The first one was an absolute disaster on every level. Carbines against heavy machine guns. No mortars, no armoured support, no field guns. All those would have won D Day in ten minutes flat against a line of pill boxes.

    I could actually write quite a list about the inadiquacies of D Day. Was an absolute farce and war crime against allied soldiers by their own commands

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  31. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Very powerful interview on Ukraine.

    Dr. Roberts: “That government (in Ukraine) is conducting extraordinary propaganda against Russia, claiming that Russian troops are massed on the border and are going to invade Ukraine. So they are creating this image which helps foment war. Here’s the great danger in all of this….

    “What does this do to Putin? Putin has been very low key. He’s been very diplomatic. He sits there and watches this and he says:

    “What are these Americans up to? Here they bring a direct strategic threat to Russia, right here in my backyard. They are trying to put Ukraine in Nato so they can put missile bases on the Russian border with Ukraine. They tried to grab Russia’s only warm-water naval base, the port we’ve had since Catherine the Great in the 18th century. Why are they doing this? Why these amazing provocations against Russia?”

    … So that’s what the idiots in Washington have brought about. They’ve convinced a nuclear power that can wipe the United States off the face of the Earth, and certainly Europe, that they cannot be trusted.

    They’ve made it impossible for the Russian government to work with them. They are demonizing Russia, trying to isolate it, trying to punish it for doing nothing — except not collapsing before American aggression. And so what can he (Putin) do? Prepare for war. This is extremely dangerous.

    Any government that is so reckless as Washington is, to create this impression in the government of a strategic nuclear power, any government that would do this is insane. This is a form of recklessness and irresponsibility on the part of the Obama regime and its European puppets that is insane. The whole world is at stake.”

    Eric King: “What about Russia’s relationship with China? That’s strengthening and they seem to be aligning against the West. Is China with Russia?”

    Dr. Roberts: “China realizes it has the same enemy that Russia has — it’s Washington. Washington is doing the same thing to China. The pivot to Asia is the construction of all these new American naval and air bases, in order to surround China and to control the flow of resources through the South China Sea.

    China can see clearly that this is directed at them, despite the fact that the United States announces periodically, ‘This has nothing to do with China.’ What does it have to do with? (laughter ensues) What does the United States need these naval and air bases in the South China Sea for, except to interfere with China?

    So China sees that. And they see the lies — No one believes the account given of the Ukraine, outside the United States and parts of Western Europe. Nobody else in the world believes a word of it. China can see Russia is being set up as the bad guy. In fact, they (China) have spoken out in favor of Russia.

    I think the same thing will happen with India and Brazil. So you will see a quicker formation of the BRIC’s, and a quicker move toward leaving the dollar, and creating their own separate international monetary system. This will then reduce the financial imperialism of Washington because it will exclude half the population of the world.”

    Dr. Roberts added: “Obama is now ridiculing Russia, saying they are ‘weak.’ Why do you want to gratuitously offend a militarily powerful country for? What is the purpose of it? It shows that the President of the United States is not fit to be in office. He doesn’t have enough sense to be there. He’s dangerous. He’s provoking confrontation that could blow the whole world up.”

    Interview here: http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2014/3/27_Dr._Paul_Craig_Roberts.html

    And here’s a take on the economic aspects: http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=4614

    One interesting dynamic which I think the latter article gets wrong is the UK’s true position in this. A few weeks ago it announced it was against sanctions, I don’t know what its public ‘official’ position is now but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was working the channels to get the US to back down. It’s clear this is a zero-sum game – there will be no winners if it continues.

    Russia cannot and will not tolerate US missiles in Ukraine anymore than the US would tolerate Russian missiles in Mexico and that’s the direct equivalent. But the US economy is in deep trouble, they’ve played all their monetary cards, the DOW is being propped up by share buy-backs not by plant investment and that can’t continue, they’ve offshored all their manufacturing apart from Defence and the world is looking at their debt and wondering how long the USD can remain as the reserve.

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  32. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    “For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Galatians 5:17

    The rejection of flesh can be seen in the first article of Anglican religion:

    I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; ”

    But remembering Pauls victory – I thank God through Jesus Christ who has won me the victory.

    The passion of Christ to the cross meant he won for us and our faith in Him gives us His victory. That is the Gospel.

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  33. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    wiri, one thing is for sure the Hiller and the nazis lost the war and Paris was recaptured shortly after in.August. The allies can’t of being doing much wrong on and after D Day.

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  34. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    “But the US economy is in deep trouble, they’ve played all their monetary cards, the DOW is being propped up by share buy-backs not by plant investment and that can’t continue, they’ve offshored all their manufacturing apart from Defence and the world is looking at their debt and wondering how long the USD can remain as the reserve.”

    Reid

    This is the part Kiwibloggers (Redbaiter) cannot comprehend and do not discuss. They know this will lead to conspiracy and even the libor scandal is taboo to them. Points out too much of the obvious that non partisan thinkers clearly relate to.

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  35. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “with the gospels which in written form date from mid-late second century”

    Late first early second is more accurate.

    The Pauline Epistles, the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, and the book of Acts are all dated from 45-63 A.D. The Gospel of John and the Revelation may have been written as late as 95 A.D. The New Testament manuscript which dates most closely to the original autograph was copied around 125 A.D, within 35 years of the original. It is designated “p 52″ and contains a small portion of John 18. (The “p” stands for papyrus.) Note this is far earlier than the appearance of the Gnostic material.

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  36. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    The rejection of flesh can be seen in the first article of Anglican religion:

    I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions;

    The Anglican article contradicts Genesis 1-18; you can’t eat food if you don’t have a physical body.

    UT where is the contradiction? God is spirit, as far as I know there is no passage of Him eating food or am I wrong?

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  37. EAD (1,449 comments) says:

    I stumbled across a political outfit this morning called Free NZ whilst browsing the web this morning:

    http://www.freenz.org

    Is anybody here a member and/or know what they’re about (I’d imagine they’d attract people from the political right or the old-labour left) as I’d be quite interested to find out and possibly get involved.

    Cheers

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  38. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    The Myths and lies of the Rothschild and International Zionist Conspiracy,

    http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4311

    Plus,

    http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4271

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  39. Tauhei Notts (1,687 comments) says:

    In David Cunliffe’s long speech on forestry and timber related activity mention is made of how towns like Waipa need a vibrant timber industry.
    Where is the town of Waipa?
    I know that there is a Waipa River, named after a locality on the western side of the Rangitoto range which is source of that river.
    But where is the town.
    I think the town of Waipa is as fanciful as everything else that creep says.

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  40. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    “wiri, one thing is for sure the Hiller and the nazis lost the war and Paris was recaptured shortly after in.August. The allies can’t of being doing much wrong on and after D Day.”

    Actually, the allies suffered quite a few defeats and the Battle of the Bulge nearly broke the allied spirit. Patton even took airborne troops out much to their chagrine. On D Day the germans were aided by heavy cloud cover which made bomber sighters miss the pill boxes by a mile. Their sighting systems had recently been invented and the sighters boasted they could hit a needle in a hay stack. Instead, all they got was complaints from the navy the bombers were bombing too close to US shipping which big guns should have been able to fire accurately a mile further out. D Day and the ensuing campaigns were stuff of thin wire walking.

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  41. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Helps to have a base line on the bibles dates not spawns “official” story

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible

    The second column the actual dates of earliest known fragments is far more reliable than the educated guesses of Scholarly endeavors.

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  42. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “They weren’t entirely different. Paul’s description of the conflict between the flesh and the spirit is similar to that of the Gnostics.”

    Only at first glance. In fact they are very different. The Gnostics believed all material creation to be inherently evil. Paul’s understanding of the flesh (which really means human nature) is that it is problematic rather than evil.

    “The rejection of flesh can be seen in the first article of Anglican religion:”

    No. Saying God is Spirit does not mean rejecting creation. Moreover in Christianity the Incarnation is God taking on the flesh. Jesus is literally God in the flesh.

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  43. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    UT where is the contradiction? God is spirit, as far as I know there is no passage of Him eating food or am I wrong?

    The passage is Genesis 18:1-8 (sorry incorrect previous reference)

    And YHWH appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
    And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
    And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
    Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
    And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
    And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
    And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
    And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
    Genesis 18:1-8

    And to make matters worse for the religionists, they ate dairy and meat together.

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  44. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    “And to make matters worse for the religionists, they ate dairy and meat together.”

    All before the Hebrew race and Mosaic laws were instituted.

    Those who do study scripture understand this.

    But thank you for the beautiful text.

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  45. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Paul’s understanding of the flesh (which really means human nature) is that it is problematic rather than evil.

    I think you’re a bit mild on that Shawn, read Romans 8:5-14 for example.

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  46. mikenmild (12,319 comments) says:

    Here’s another beautiful text:
    Our Pasta, Who “Arghh” in the colander, Swallowed be thy sauce. Thy serving come, Thy food be yum, On forks as they are on spoons. Give us this day our daily sauce, And forgive our mess, As we forgive those who mess against us. And lead us not into Hell, But deliver us some pizza, For thine is the noodles, the sauce and the meatballs. Ramen

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  47. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him”

    Three angels.

    Jesus also ate and drank. Your assuming a radical dichotomy between creation and God which is not supported by Scripture.

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  48. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Fuck we had study of the history of the bible.

    It has now turned into bible study.

    Still those involved are credible commenters on such an exotic subject

    :lol:

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  49. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    ‘such an exotic subject’

    Not in my circles ;)

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  50. Fletch (6,519 comments) says:

    UglyTruth, yes, those have always been taken as being angels.
    God had never come physically down to the earth until Jesus.

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  51. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    wiki, your revisionist account of D Day does not cut any ice with me. Recall the allies had to overcome a heavily fortified Atlantic Defensive wall that proved their undoing back in 1942 at Dieppe but were able to readily surmount on the 22nd of June.
    Undoubtedly mistakes were made on that day but the biggest mistake was the German commanders who had to wait for Hitler to awake from his snooze before full battle orders could be implemented .
    Yes the Bulge was but a temporary setback which only staved off the inevitable . The German armies actually ran out of fuel and, of course, had to contend with the remorseless tidal wave advance of the Red Army. ( actually the German army in the East perfected the art of continuous retreat. )
    Again not bad that in less than than a year Hitler was dead and Germany had surrendered.

    PS and do note this comment re the Bulge breaking allies spirit,

    “General Anthony Clement “Nuts” McAuliffe (July 2, 1898 – August 11, 1975) was the United States Army general who was the acting division commander of the 101st Airborne Division troops defending Bastogne, Belgium, during World War II’s Battle of the Bulge. He is famous for his single-word reply of “Nuts!” in response to a German surrender ultimatum.”

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  52. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    How about the lol cat prayer to the 23rd psalm.

    The Lord is ma shepherd I shall always lol
    He leadeth me to the still cheeseburger
    He reviveth ma lol soul
    His rod and His staff they steer me from teh uncouth doggies
    cause I wonder
    Yea, though I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no rat
    for His Holden manifold wisdom guideth me
    and His furry dice iz awesum.
    He seats me before His table
    cause I have trained ma human staff to ma needs.
    He annointh ma head wif pats
    and ma purrs runneth over.
    Surely sardine and pasta shall follow me all the dayz of ma life
    and I shall dwell in the house of ma lol Lord forever. (Copyright)

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  53. Manolo (14,164 comments) says:

    Lovely life for the residents of this hellhole: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11227805

    Nigeria’s National Emergency Management Agency says 3 million people are suffering from the Islamic uprising with a quarter million people made homeless in the northeast of the country just this year.

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  54. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Three angels.

    No, one deity and two angels.

    Later in the chapter:

    And YHWH said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
    Genesis 18:13

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  55. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “God had never come physically down to the earth until Jesus.”

    Correct Fletch, though I would be more careful about using phrases such as “God coming down to earth”. This implies spatial movement which of course is not the case as God is everywhere and at all times present. A better phrase is that God in Christ took human form and became truly and fully human.

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  56. Bill (94 comments) says:

    “This is a Government that has one rule for itself and another rule for everybody else. It is a Government that is interested only in furthering the interests of its mates and those close to it. Look, for example, at the number of National Party donors who have been given honours under this Government. Tony Astle—60 grand to the National Party was enough to make him an Officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit. Chris Parkin gave $66,000 to the National Party, and that made him a Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit. Sir Graeme Douglas—twenty-five grand gave him an insignia of the Knight Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit. Sir William Gallagher—$42,000 got him a knighthood. Lady Diana Isaac—$20,000 made her an Officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit. [Interruption] Oh, there is old “Maestro”, Jonathan Coleman, piping up at the perfect time, of course, because we know that Garth Barfoot gave him $5,000 for his campaign and he got made a Member of the New Zealand Order of Merit in exchange for that.”

    A good speech by Chris Hipkins in Parliament the other day.

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  57. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    “PS and do note this comment, ”

    Still does not recognise the huge un-needed destruction of allied human life on D Day

    If you were a commander would you have landed men or armaments first, meaning tanks that heavy machine gun fire meant nothing to ?

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  58. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “No, one deity and two angels.”

    No. The OT often has angels (especially the Angel of the Lord) speak as God, but as his voice and representative.

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  59. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    Fletch,

    God never coming physically down to earth until jesus??

    The Burning Bush and the Tablets at Mt Sinai.??

    The the spectacle of nitpicking and splitting hairs over doctrines like the Holy Trinity unfortunately give Christianity a bit of a bad name.

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  60. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “The the spectacle nitpicking and splitting hairs over doctrines like the Holy Trinity unfortunately give Christianity a bit of a bad name.”

    Not really. Theology is an academic exercise and often appeals to those with an academic bent. Most Christians get the basics and just focus on following Jesus.

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  61. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    UglyTruth, yes, those have always been taken as being angels.

    That’s religion for you. Adopt some strange belief and ignore anything in your source text that says otherwise.

    Arguably this belief originated during the Babylonian exile, when the house of Judah attempted to rationalize the lack of protection from their deity by becoming Elohists and substuting monotheism for henotheism. The Hebrew basis for henotheism is found in the first commandment of Exodus 20, which prohibits the worship of “other gods”.

    Another argument for deity having physical form is found in Genesis 1:26: “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness”

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  62. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    wiri, the allies relied on two important weapons on D Day that proved decisive – namely huge Naval Fire power with waves and waves of aerial plane bombardment .!
    Both largely unchallenged.

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  63. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    This implies spatial movement which of course is not the case as God is everywhere and at all times present.

    And Cain went out from the presence of YHWH, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
    Genesis 4:16

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  64. SGA (1,249 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 11:14 am

    “God had never come physically down to the earth until Jesus.”
    Correct Fletch, though I would be more careful about using phrases such as “God coming down to earth”. This implies spatial movement which of course is not the case as God is everywhere and at all times present.

    Just curious (really) –
    Genesis 3:8
    “Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day”
    or
    “They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze”
    or
    “When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden.”

    Doesn’t walking require some sort of physical presence?

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  65. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    UT if you look at Genesis 18:22 you’ll see a passage that infers that of those three men not one is the Lord.

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  66. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Doesn’t walking require some sort of physical presence?

    God is spirit but we are made in His image. Spirit beings can have attributes like arms and legs, but this doesn’t make them physical.

    They are also capable of battling each other which means there must be interaction amongst them – i.e. they don’t just pass through each other.

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  67. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Shawn, no, the various gnostic books are contemporaneous with the gospels which in written form date from mid-late second century. It is conjectured on textual grounds that the synoptics all derive from a single earlier presumed written source often referred to as the “Q” gospel, but no version of this has survived. The various Pauline letters and the letters of James are the earliest written parts of the new Testament. Acts is also early in origin but it has been heavily edited. Different sections of the early church (post the Pauline revolution) used different texts in the NT, it was around 300 that the “official” canon emerged.

    Irenaeus of Lyon was the first to list the Biblical canon more or less as it’s accepted today, and he did that around 180AD.

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  68. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    God is spirit but we are made in His image. Spirit beings can have attributes like arms and legs, but this doesn’t make them physical.

    Where do you get your intel on the attributes of “spirit beings”?

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  69. Fletch (6,519 comments) says:

    God did not physically (as in, bodily) come to earth until he came as Jesus.
    He was there as a disembodied light or presence with Moses (the burning bush, as well), and when God walked with the man and his wife (Adam and Eve) that was in the Garden of Eden, before the Fall.

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  70. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Where do you get your intel on the attributes of “spirit beings”?

    Genesis 1.1 to Rev 22.21 Ryan. Haven’t you read it? Not even once?

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  71. SGA (1,249 comments) says:

    Reid at 11:49 am

    God is spirit but we are made in His image. Spirit beings can have attributes like arms and legs, but this doesn’t make them physical.

    So
    Arms and legs – check. Makes noise when it walks – check. But not physical.
    Ok.

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  72. SGA (1,249 comments) says:

    Fletch at 11:52 am

    God did not physically (as in, bodily) come to earth until he came as Jesus.
    He was there as a disembodied light or presence with Moses (the burning bush, as well), and when God walked with the man and his wife (Adam and Eve) that was in the Garden of Eden, before the Fall.

    So, god created the earth, but then set up the Garden of Eden somewhere completely different?

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  73. marcw (259 comments) says:

    Could you religious nitpicking nutters please take your stupid childish and obtuse conversations and doorknock on someone elses’ blog site. Or better still, start your own at your expense. You will do all the grown-ups here a big favour. Thank you.

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  74. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    What a load of imaginary Skydaddy bollocks. :)

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  75. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Yes SGA, there are many things that don’t work the same in the spirit world. For example…

    Fletch, re: your 11.52, you know one of the theories on Adam and Eve was that before the fall they didn’t have blood. Because you’ll notice in Genesis it talks about flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone but doesn’t mention flesh and blood. And as we know, the spirit is in the blood, which is why God says don’t eat it.

    But when the fall came it was necessary to reflect the changed relationship between man and God and this is where the blood came in, because God needed a place to house the Holy Spirit. Might not be the case but it fits, doesn’t it.

    I just cite that SGA as an example of how things differ when considering Biblical things. If you try to relate it to the world it will never make any sense to those who haven’t surrendered themselves to God and that’s deliberate because that surrender the necessary pre-condition of the faith. Fletch for example will understand exactly what I mean but worldly people will think it’s just a bunch of babble.

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  76. cha (4,132 comments) says:

    No Bill, say it ain’t so.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/101529786

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  77. publicwatchdog (3,113 comments) says:

    You won’t read this on Whaleoil or the Daily Blog!

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

    FYI
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    27 March 2014

    http://www.investigatemagazine.co.nz/Investigate/4922/len-brown-faces-conflict-of-interest-allegation/

    Len Brown faces conflict of interest allegation
    Auckland Mayor Len Brown has been accused of acting with a conflict of interest at a council committee meeting today.

    Veteran anti-corruption campaigner Penny Bright was attempting to read out letters from the police in regard to a complaint against Mayor Brown, but he refused to let her speak and ordered security staff to remove Bright from the venue.

    Speaking later from Auckland police station, Bright told InvestigateDaily that the mayor had taken direct action on a matter he was directly implicated in, and she believed he had a clear conflict of interest in trying to prevent members of the public from speaking about him.

    Bright being removed. PHOTO: Cr Dick Quax

    (Photo: Dick Quax)

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FROM PENNY BRIGHT

    (“The letter from Police that conflicted Auckland Mayor Len Brown tried to stop me reading at the Auckland Council Governing Body meeting Thursday 27 March 2014 “)

    https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#search/nzppsltd%40gmail.com/144e2c8f108b7d12?projector=1

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    “I have discussed this matter with Graham McCready, and am considering taking a private prosecution for assault against the security guards, and Mayor Len Brown as a party to the assault,” says Penny Bright.

    “If you think that I am going to put up with being censored and assaulted – now twice within 5 weeks – for attempting to expose corrupt conflicts of interest at Auckland Council – THINK AGAIN!”

    “In my considered opinion, Auckland Council is rotten to the core with corrupt conflicts of interest, but I will NOT be silenced as an anti-corruption ‘whistle-blower’. “

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  78. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    When did KB get taken over by religious loonies and World Zionist Conspiracy tinfoil hatters?

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  79. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    UT if you look at Genesis 18:22 you’ll see a passage that infers that of those three men not one is the Lord.

    How so?

    20: And YHWH said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
    21: I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
    22: And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before YHWH.

    33: And YHWH went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

    1: And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

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  80. Manolo (14,164 comments) says:

    It is the poverty, stupid!
    An academic do-gooder lectures us from afar: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/letters-to-the-editor/9877880/Letter-Poverty-the-cause-of-pupil-churn

    This problem is not one of neglectful mothers, nor of ”struggling families”, the New Zealand term slightly less offensive than the term ”failing families” often heard from British politicians. It is neither an issue of poor parenting, nor of gender (mums to blame), nor of race (Maori with no fixed abode).

    It is an issue of economic policy. The name of the problem is poverty. The solution – or the beginning of a solution – is a change of economic policy to introduce a living wage.

    BARBARA EINHORN
    Emeritus Professor of Gender Studies
    University of Sussex, United Kingdom

    Excuse the language, but what the fuck are Gender Studies?

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  81. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    22: And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before YHWH.

    God couldn’t both be standing before YHWH and also be one of the three men, could He?

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  82. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Arguably this belief originated during the Babylonian exile, when the house of Judah attempted to rationalize the lack of protection from their deity by becoming Elohists and substuting monotheism for henotheism.”

    Oh dear. You spend way too much time on conspiracy web sites and other fringe sources.

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  83. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “What a load of imaginary Skydaddy bollocks.”

    Tell us about your own “skydaddy” then so we can evaluate your own theology. Hint: Don’t start with the claim you have none. You do.

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  84. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “When did KB get taken over by religious loonies ”

    About the time that atheist loonies began claiming that KB was their personal space and demanding anti-religious censorship. Apparently the poor dears are so terrified of having their shallow ideology challenged they need to be protected from ever hearing contrary views. Does not say much about how robust their atheist faith is.

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  85. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Genesis 1.1 to Rev 22.21 Ryan. Haven’t you read it? Not even once?

    I spent two years at Bible college, Reid. I’ve read it many times.

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  86. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “I spent two years at Bible college”

    In NZ? If so, which one?

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  87. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    In NZ? If so, which one?

    A combination of Carey Baptist Bible College, the Catholic Institute of Theology and St John’s Anglican Seminary.

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  88. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    When were at St John’s? I spent four years there.

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  89. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    When were at St John’s? I spent four years there.

    2001 and 2002. I was studying via the School of Theology at Auckland Uni, majoring in pastoral studies, minoring in Christian thought and history.

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  90. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    I was there from 2009 to 2012. I am studying for my degree (slowly) via Otago and majoring in Christian thought and history.

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  91. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Like, at Knox?

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  92. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    No, at St John’s. The relationshp between St Johns and Auckland Uni went downhill and most students are now encouraged to do their degree work through Otago, which has an outstanding theology dept. I was only at St John’s because my wife was an ordinand training for ministry. She was ordained last year. I’m continuing my Otago study via the distance learning program

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  93. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, the confusion of whether the God of the bible at any stage involved henotheism, rather than monotheism alone, is based on how one related the concept of monotheism to others.

    The term “priest king of the most high God” refers to an acceptance that there were others with different gods, but placing the relationship between Creator God and other gods in the context that one was God the others were the gods of creation (solar and lunar gods and the like). This is not so much henotheism to those of Creator God faith, but can be understood as henotheism by those with other gods.

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  94. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    No, at St John’s. The relationshp between St Johns and Auckland Uni went downhill and most students are now encouraged to do their degree work through Otago, which has an outstanding theology dept. I was only at St John’s because my wife was an ordinand training for ministry. She was ordained last year. I’m continuing my Otago study via the distance learning program

    Ah, I see. I haven’t been keeping up with the goss, obviously.

    Cool. Well, enjoy.

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  95. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    SPC,

    yes, I agree with what your saying. The Bible is monotheist, but not in the same way that say the Quran is. The Bible recognizes other “gods” but only as creations (angels?) not eternal deities.

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  96. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    On the topic of Sodom and Gomorrah, as with the so called worldwide flood of the time of Noah, there is no historical evidence that this event occurred.

    There is no evidence that God has killed any human being by act of God, all acts of flood gods and volcano goods and earthquake gods – natural disasters as acts of god are of a pagan mind set.

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  97. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    ShawnLH,

    I think what UT is observing is the change in approach after the fall of the kingdom of Judah, a more complacent attitude (acceptance that others had their own false gods, a lower level of godfaith) to a more bold declaration that they were the people of the one God – a faith that kept them united as a people in the diaspora.

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  98. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    I spent two years at Bible college, Reid. I’ve read it many times.

    Burnnnnnn.

    But of course this is the second time you’ve embarrassed him with this answer, and last time it was with a more detailed response that should never have invited such a stupid taunt again.

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  99. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, the Hebrew term malik referred to representative as presumably angel also does. The pagans referred to gods of the sun and the moon, in the sense that the sun was a manifestation of the god of the sun.

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  100. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Burnnnnnn.

    But of course this is the second time you’ve embarrassed him with this answer before, and with a more detailed response.

    All of the people who ask me if I’ve ever read the Bible kind of blur into one after a while. I guess all of the people whom Reid assumes have never read it blur a bit too.

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  101. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Why has no one mentioned the visitations to earth by the two witnesses to the special person status of Joseph Smith?

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  102. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Why has no one mentioned the visitations to earth by the two witnesses to the special person status of Joseph Smith?”

    I suspect because the discussion was about the Bible, not the Book of Mormon.

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  103. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Shawn, the bible is a singular witness. In concept of biblical law, this is not a substantiated witness.

    The claim of visitation to Joseph Smith is made by a fellow Christian and is not part of the book of Mormon.

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  104. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    I must have forgotten the first time Ryan, I do apologise. I’ve just scanned the Bible and the closest I can find is 1Co 35-58 but it’s not close enough so I’ll revise my thinking on that and thank you for the correction.

    One thing I read awhile ago which is not Biblical but rings true (to me), is that all believers have an appointed angel, whose job it is to battle against the forces of darkness that assail us. This angel is equipped with the armour of God per Eph 6.10-17 but only to the extent the believer equips themself with it. If your faith is lacking for example then the shield isn’t as effective as it should be. If true that suggests some angels at least have bodily attributes and people like Mary Baxter and others who’ve had visions say similar, but then that is human knowledge, not God’s, so it may or may not be the case.

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  105. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Shawn, the bible is a singular witness. In concept of biblical law, this is not a substantiated witness.”

    Debatable. It could be said that the Bible is a plural witness in so far as it is not strictly a singe book, but a library of books.

    Are you a Mormon?

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  106. publicwatchdog (3,113 comments) says:

    There appears to have been very little mainstream media coverage of the upcoming national day of protest to stop the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA):

    FYI

    SAT 29 MARCH: JOIN THE NATIONAL DAY OF ACTION TO STOP THE TPPA

    http://us4.campaign-archive1.com/?u=2af728ed394d2e3c92f383cd5&id=a606f10a8e&e=400b29f860
    ) .

    https://gallery.mailchimp.com/2af728ed394d2e3c92f383cd5/images/Facebook_banner_12.03.2014.jpg

    JOIN THE NATIONAL DAY OF ACTION TO STOP THE TPPA

    Saturday 29 March, 1pm

    Contact the organisers of your local event if you can help or
    chris.zack if you want to start something where there is a gap.

    Posters and leaflets, templates for placards, and other resources are
    all on the website
    (
    http://itsourfuture.us4.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2af728ed394d2e3c92f383cd5&id=58907499cc&e=400b29f860
    ) or will be soon.

    It would be great to have lots of colour and creativity – there will
    be ideas from other international actions on the TPPA on the website
    too.

    Join the banner- and placard-making day in Auckland on Saturday 22nd.
    Contact chris.zack

    Protest Locations (from North to South)

    Hokianga

    Kohukohu at 1:00
    https://www.facebook.com/events/498005333646108/ (
    http://itsourfuture.us4.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=2af728ed394d2e3c92f383cd5&id=06b29a80ec&e=400b29f860
    )

    karo.hohaia

    Whangarei
    Clock Museum, Town Basin at 1:00
    https://www.facebook.com/events/685644708146440/ (
    http://itsourfuture.us4.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=2af728ed394d2e3c92f383cd5&id=ae01508d77&e=400b29f860
    )
    banjamin

    Auckland

    1:00 pm Aotea Square
    https://www.facebook.com/events/454683364631627/ (
    http://itsourfuture.us4.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2af728ed394d2e3c92f383cd5&id=6f17e07f12&e=400b29f860
    )
    ben.bungy

    Hamilton
    Garden Place at 1:00
    https://www.facebook.com/events/181743182030503/ (
    http://itsourfuture.us4.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2af728ed394d2e3c92f383cd5&id=682a61fc10&e=400b29f860
    )
    kellyk79

    Taranaki

    Puke Ariki Landing at 1:00
    https://www.facebook.com/events/181486005379363/ (
    http://itsourfuture.us4.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2af728ed394d2e3c92f383cd5&id=7bddaeb73c&e=400b29f860
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    Red Square at 1:00
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    martins.3000

    Whanganui

    Silver Ball Sculpture on the Riverfront 1pm walk up to Majestic Square
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    Palmerston North
    The Square at 1:00
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    Wellington
    Cuba Street, bucket fountain at 1:00
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    Nelson

    venue TBD at 1:00
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    tomandgray

    Christchurch
    114 Cashel St at 1:00
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    suthy2

    Geraldine
    South Canterbury on the T junction of Cox and Talbot Street at 1:00
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    Invercargill
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    Queenstown
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    Napier
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    Timaru
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  107. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    I must have forgotten the first time Ryan, I do apologise. I’ve just scanned the Bible and the closest I can find is 1Co 35-58 but it’s not close enough so I’ll revise my thinking on that and thank you for the correction.

    One thing I read awhile ago which is not Biblical but rings true (to me), is that all believers have an appointed angel, whose job it is to battle against the forces of darkness that assail us. This angel is equipped with the armour of God per Eph 6.10-17 but only to the extent the believer equips themself with it. If your faith is lacking for example then the shield isn’t as effective as it should be.

    Hm. I always read those Ephesians verses as being entirely metaphorical, but fair enough.

    If true that suggests some angels at least have bodily attributes and people like Mary Baxter and others who’ve had visions say similar, but then that is human knowledge, not God’s, so it may or may not be the case.

    Whether it’s Mary Baxter or Paul’s epistles, you’re talking about human knowledge and human testimony until you meet one of these spiritual beings yourself, surely.

    Another possibility would be that the human mind interprets experiences of spiritual beings through its own filters and expectations – that angels don’t “have arms”, but that the human who experiences them anthropomorphises them subconsciously.

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  108. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, no I am a deist.

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  109. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    God couldn’t both be standing before YHWH and also be one of the three men, could He?

    “God” is quite an ambiguous term. It’s usually a translation of Elohim, which is plural, but sometimes of Elohkym, which is singular. To complicate matters the word Elohim is typically used in a singular sense.

    Three “men” approach Abraham and eat his food, then an unspecified number of “men” leave while YHWH remains with Abraham to discuss the fate of Sodom. After YHWH leaves Abraham two angels approach Sodom. The logical inference is that the two angels were part of the original group of three. The word translated as angel means messenger, this description of role isn’t inconsistent with the original description of “men”.

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  110. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Reid 1.33pm, that is an accurate summary of the life of one of the Winchester brothers on Supernatural (TV2), but he is unaware of the angels presence.

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  111. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    UT, it’s either messenger of or representative of. The term could even extend to child of and or grandchild of.

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  112. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    On the topic of Sodom and Gomorrah, as with the so called worldwide flood of the time of Noah, there is no historical evidence that this event occurred.

    http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm

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  113. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    I always read those Ephesians verses as being entirely metaphorical

    Have a read of Derek Prince’s Spiritual Warfare, he goes through it in great detail, it’s a really critical if often neglected part of our walk.

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  114. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Another possibility would be that the human mind interprets experiences of spiritual beings through its own filters and expectations – that angels don’t “have arms”, but that the human who experiences them anthropomorphises them subconsciously.”

    I would agree with that from personal experience.

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  115. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    shawnlh

    “majoring in Christian thought and history.”

    I have long suspected that Christianity teaches one what is acceptable thinking. Sounds pretty much like North Korea to me.

    I am not sure why they would call it Christian History, anything that is so obviously made up cannot by any stretch of the imagination be construed as History. Now if they called it Christian storytelling, or Christian mythology then that would be a far more accurate descriptor.

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  116. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Oh dear. You spend way too much time on conspiracy web sites and other fringe sources.

    While that could well be true, it doesn’t change the fact that conspiracy theory dovetails with the formation and role of the Zionist state of Israel, arguably along the lines of the synagogue of satan described in Bible.

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  117. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “the fact that conspiracy theory dovetails with the formation and role of the Zionist state of Israel, arguably along the lines of the synagogue of satan described in Bible.”

    Not “arguably” at all. It’s neo-nazi tripe.

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  118. Ross12 (1,484 comments) says:

    Poor little Gareth Hughes is upset

    http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/22221639/greens-outraged-govt-wont-wait-for-fracking-report/

    A preliminary report on fracking comes out in 2012. The greenies were not happy that it said there was little problem with fracking. We don’t see anything more until this week. Apparently there was more work to be done for the report. Obviously the word got out that the Govt. was going to publish some guidelines. So the Comm. for the environment comes out with some BS that she is worried fracking could affect climate change, before the guidelines come out today.

    Questions : Why does it take so long to come out with the final report ? ( still not out after another 18months)
    Why would the NZ report be any different to those of other Governments which all say it is safe if done properly ? ( or as in the case of the USA EPA has not been able to find any major issue with fracking activities in the past in the USA –they would love to find issues but cannot).
    What were the Greens doing behind the scenes after the preliminary report did not go their way ?

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  119. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “I have long suspected that Christianity teaches one what is acceptable thinking.”

    Then you would be wrong in the way your framing this. All philosophies, ideologies and religions make statements on what they consider true or not true. You own post here does exactly that, claiming that your thinking is right and mine wrong. So the difference is….???

    “Sounds pretty much like North Korea to me.”

    So a cookbook that shows the right way to make an omelette is the same as North Korean tyranny?

    Puhleeeease.

    “I am not sure why they would call it Christian History”

    Because Christianity is an actual movement in history. Duh.

    Seriously, if this kind of drivel is the best you can do, give up.

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  120. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    “waves of aerial plane bombardment .!
    Both largely unchallenged.”

    As I explained the bombers sighting technology failed because of huge cloud cover. Otherwise the German pill boxes would have been smashed to pieces and many lives would have been saved.

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  121. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    If the claim that fracking does not pollute groundwater is so demonstrably false, how can it be so widely repeated? Oil and gas executives like Exxon Mobil’s Rex Tillerson have repeated that line in Congressional hearings, where a deliberately false statement could theoretically lead to a perjury charge.

    At its root, the carefully-worded claim is built on a deeply misleading semantic maneuver. Every word in the sentence is carefully chosen. For starters, those who defend it claim that unless one narrow stage of the shale gas extraction process, the hydraulic fracturing process itself, caused a rock fracture that allowed fracking fluid to rise up into aquifers, the contamination doesn’t count.

    Did the contamination happen when the shale gas well was being drilled not fracked? Doesn’t count. Did the cement in the wellbore crack during fracking, allowing contaminants to escape and pollute a water well? Doesn’t count, that was a cement problem not a fracking problem. Did an Exxon Mobil subsidiary illegally dump 57,000 gallons of wastewater from a tank onto the ground, leading to felony charges against the company? Did a leaky fracking waste pit pollute a water well and sicken several families? Does not count.

    Insisting that contamination doesn’t count unless it happened in one particular way is not only misleading, it makes little sense. Without fracking, drillers could not pump gas from the shale formations that lay below the backyards of millions of Americans. Further, it matters little to the people living nearby what particular piece of equipment drillers were using when their drinking water went bad; it ultimately only matters that it happened because the drillers made a mistake.
    http://www.desmogblog.com/2014/01/31/multiple-states-confirm-fracking-has-contaminated-groundwater

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  122. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    Shawnlh

    “So a cookbook that shows the right way to make an omelette is the same as North Korean tyranny?”

    It would be if the cookbook told you that eggs come from a special virgin chicken, or that a “special chef” can take water and turn that same water into eggs.

    A cookbook deals in reality Shawn, it deals with things real. Christianity (as proven by your own words) seeks to indoctrinate its foolish followers with acceptable thought. That is indeed what happens in North Korea.

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  123. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “A cookbook deals in reality Shawn”

    So does the Christian Faith.

    ” Christianity (as proven by your own words) seeks to indoctrinate”

    It seeks to reveal God’s truth. If I decide to vote for National/Act/Labour or whatever because I agree with their policies then does that mean I have been indoctrinated? NO, of course not. It means I vote for them because I thought for myself and made a decision based on what makes the most sense to me. That’s not indoctrination.

    All your doing is choosing loaded language and deliberately pejorative words to claim that apples are the same as oranges.

    As I said, utter drivel. Do you have a fact based rational argument to make? Or are you just going to keep playing silly word games?

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  124. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Not “arguably” at all. It’s neo-nazi tripe.

    Educate yourself Shawn. It’s got nothing to do with that. Read these two for example, they’re by a Jew – a real one.

    http://www.lulu.com/shop/joseph-ehrlich/legacy/paperback/product-3867553.html

    http://www.lulu.com/shop/joseph-ehrlich/clarity-by-joseph-ehrlich/paperback/product-762606.html?pn=1

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  125. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Educate yourself Shawn.”

    Hitler was not a good and heroic man Reid. Educate yourself.

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  126. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    Big Bruv places an apple and a cricket ball on the table and says “Look Shawn they are both round and red so they are the same thing! See, that is rational and reality based thinking!”

    Shawn walks away shaking his head at the irrational stupidity of the average atheist. :)

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  127. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Not “arguably” at all. It’s neo-nazi tripe.

    No, there is a very real argument which connects the Zionist state with the synagogue of satan.

    And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
    1 Ch 21:1

    The Zionists used the holocaust as a pretext to get Jews to shift from Europe to Palestine. Central to this was the mantra of six million jews being at risk of death or persecution or six million of them dying in Europe. Numbering Israel was generally forbidden, so the idea that the end of the exile of Israel would by brought about by disobedience is a nonsense.

    Also there is the numerical association with the number of the beast. Six million is one six and six zeroes, or two thirds of the sixes of 666. The fraction of two thirds fits into the sixth column of the Hebrew alphanumeric grid, with the top two positions having real values wile the third one remains empty. If all the positions in the column contained values then the values would sum to 666.

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  128. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “No, there is a very real argument which connects the Zionist state with the synagogue of satan.”

    No, there really isn’t.

    “The Zionists used the holocaust as a pretext to get Jews to shift from Europe to Palestine.”

    It wasn’t a pretext, it was a valid reason to liberate Israel from Arab occupation.

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  129. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Hitler was not a good and heroic man Reid. Educate yourself.

    I agree Shawn. But what’s that got to do with what you said?

    You’re conflating NWO with anti-Semitism, which is a junior geopolitics error people like stephie are expected to make, but not someone like you.

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  130. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “I agree Shawn.”

    Then why did you link to a “documentary” claiming exactly that?

    “You’re conflating NWO with anti-Semitism”

    What is NWO?

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  131. mikenmild (12,319 comments) says:

    Reid’s big on the New World Order conspiracy stuff, Shawn. Something about Jews and Masons usually.

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  132. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    Yeah I figured that mm.

    Conspiracy theories bore the crap out of me.

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  133. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    It wasn’t a pretext

    In 1935 the steamer “Tel Aviv” made its maiden voyage from Nazi Germany to Haifa with Hebrew letters on its bow and a Nazi flag fluttering from its mast. The Captain of the Zionist-owned ship was a member of the Nazi Party.

    The bottom line is that both Nazism and Zionism were sponsored by the same banking cartel and had complementary goals. The rise of anti Semitism in Europe served to create the State of Israel, which President Assad of Syria described as a “dagger in the heart of the Arab nations.”

    http://www.henrymakow.com/000482.html

    Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, maintained that anti-Semitism is not an aberration, but a natural and completely understandable response by non-Jews to alien Jewish behavior and attitudes. The only solution, he argued, is for Jews to recognize reality and live in a separate state of their own.

    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html

    It has been the age-old intention of Zionism to intentionally stir up anti-Semitism anywhere possible, and even more commonly, to take advantage of any Jewish suffering anywhere in order to enhance its cause Indeed, hatred of Jews and Jewish suffering is the oxygen of the Zionist movement, and from the very beginning has been to deliberately incite hatred of the Jew and then, in feigned horror, use it to justify the existence of the Zionist state – this is, of course, Machiavellianism raised to the highest degree. Thus, the Zionists thrive on hatred and suffering of Jews, and seek to benefit thereby through keeping Jews in perpetual fear, causing them to ignore the true nature of Zionism, and instead to consider the Zionist state is their salvation.

    http://www.truetorahjews.org/naziismzionism

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  134. mikenmild (12,319 comments) says:

    You’ve been reading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion again and taking it far too seriously.

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  135. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    UT,

    do you have anything from non-Nazi sources? Because I have argued this crap with neo-Nazis and they link to the same sources and web sites you do.

    What does that tell you?

    If you cannot prove your case by linking to credible academic sources then all your doing is conflating evidence with anti-Jewish rantings.

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  136. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    U T, you really need to get that tinfoil hat of yours. Henry Makow is in the same league as David Icke like the rest of the drivel you link and post.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Henry_Makow

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  137. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Then why did you link to a “documentary” claiming exactly that?

    To make the point there’s a side to history other than the Western perspective and the truth normally lies somewhere in the middle. Having made that point my personal belief is that Hitler, Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt are all in Hell, for various reasons, but mostly because in the case of all of them, I’ve followed my own advice and looked at ALL the history, warts and all. Did you know Churchill used to be a big fan of boy brothels in Morocco for instance?

    Something about Jews and Masons usually.

    That’s only because both those groups are used by them mm, that’s how it works. They use the Jews because they’re Satanic in origin and their purpose is one world govt, one world religion. Now how are you going to have a one world religion unless you destroy God’s chosen people and rebuild the temple? The Masons at the lower levels below 3rd degree almost exclusively belief they belong to a charitable organisation originating from Hiram Abiff and all they ever do is good works. Unfortunately above the 3rd degree you get the satanism coming in and they tap into the same forces the ancient Egyptians tapped into. And if they don’t exist how come you get things like Madonna’s Superbowl half-time Egyptian extravaganza and all those one-eye photos. Think that’s an accident?

    https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=one+eyed+celebrities&num=100&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Xdk0U7XANsmrlAWwyICIDQ&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1422&bih=1067&dpr=0.9

    http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1386/64/1386645420523.jpg

    Right in front of you but most don’t even know what they’re looking at.

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  138. mikenmild (12,319 comments) says:

    Shawn/stephie
    Ugly has a lot going on in his head. I’ve yet to find any kooky theory that he doesn’t believe in. And I’ve long ago learned not to bother with Reid’s links to crackpot videos. A link to Rense.com should say it all.

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  139. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (735 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 2:25 pm

    It seeks to reveal God’s truth. If I decide to vote for National/Act/Labour or whatever because I agree with their policies then does that mean I have been indoctrinated? NO, of course not. It means I vote for them because I thought for myself and made a decision based on what makes the most sense to me. That’s not indoctrination.

    But wouldn’t an indoctrinated person say exactly the same thing? Don’t all indoctrinated people believe that they are thinking for themselves?

    I suppose the question is on what basis do you believe anything (whether metaphysical or political)? If your own religion is “God’s truth” why are other religion’s wrong? Why is atheism wrong? How do you know this alleged “truth” is in fact “truth”?

    The same goes for atheism by the way. How exactly does one come to their opinion? Considered evaluation after careful research? Or did Richard Dawkins just seem like a real smart guy so better believe whatever he believes?

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  140. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    MADONNA HALF TIME ILLUMINATI RITUAL!

    ALSO IN THIS ISSUE: ELVIS WORKING FOR THE CIA IN SECRET MOON BASE! JEWS EAT BABIES-SEE THE VIDEO! AND FOR OUR SUBSCRIBERS, HALF PRICE TIN FOIL HATS! DON’T BE UNPREPARED WHEN THE LIZARD PEOPLE INVADE!

    FFS.

    I’m spending way too much time on this blog.

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  141. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    do you have anything from non-Nazi sources? Because I have argued this crap with neo-Nazis and they link to the same sources and web sites you do.

    What does that tell you?

    That you have no argument and so you are forced to resort to an ad homenim.

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  142. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Yeah I figured that mm. Conspiracy theories bore the crap out of me.

    Beats me how anyone can look at this world and not get something’s going on that’s not right and start following their nose. Especially with something like 911 right there staring them in the face. And then all of the fallout from that which continues across economics, military and political fields. Not to mention the darker and darker entertainment, the education system, the media, etc etc.

    All these signs and still some refuse to awaken. It’s amazing, it really is.

    MADONNA HALF TIME ILLUMINATI RITUAL!

    Did you actually look at it Shawn? Or did you just hallucinate you already know what it’s going to tell you?

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  143. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    Weihana,

    I made a free decision. I was not indoctrinated. Yes actually indoctrinated people might say that, but that is neither here nor their. BB’s argument is that anyone who does not agree with his doctrine is indoctrinated. It’s a silly argument.

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  144. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (737 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 2:25 pm

    “A cookbook deals in reality Shawn”

    So does the Christian Faith.

    How does faith deal in reality?

    Faith is belief in the absence of evidence. Why would this approach lead a person to beliefs that accorded with reality?

    Would someone have the same approach to engineering an aeroplane? Would they use faith to decide the design of the aerofoil? Or would they use knowledge based on observation which proved that certain things worked and certain things did not?

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  145. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Beats me how anyone can look at this world and not get something’s going on that’s not right and start following their nose.”

    The human heart explains all evil. No conspiracy theory is needed.

    “Especially with something like 911 right there staring them in the face. ”

    There is nothing there staring you in the face.

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  146. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “How does faith deal in reality?”

    The Christian Faith is the revelation of God thus it is reality.

    “Faith is belief in the absence of evidence.” Faith is trust gained from the real world experience of walking with Jesus. Real faith is evidence based.

    “Would someone have the same approach to engineering an aeroplane?”

    Would you try to explain love, beauty and goodness by referring to an engineering manual?

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  147. Rowan (2,604 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11228193

    Everything about this case is so rotten, what a joke, there is no reason to keep him inside.

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  148. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (739 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 3:19 pm

    Weihana,

    I made a free decision. I was not indoctrinated.

    The indoctrinated would assert the same thing. You mention political choices as if the premise is that political choices are always free from indoctrination. But in fact many people make political choices without much thought and based largely on bias.

    In fact I would go so far as to say everyone, to some degree, is indoctrinated. Everyone holds beliefs in one area or another that are not necessarily derived from observation and logical reasoning, but is held on “good authority” or some other bias that helps us to hold beliefs in a world where no single person can possibly be knowledgable on every subject.

    Yet I think there is something different about trusting the authority of, say, a Physicist who assures me that gravitational waves have been detected and this implies something about the beggining of the Universe, and a religious leader who proclaims knowledge of “God’s truth”. In the former case I have a reasonable understanding of the processes involved in the scientific community which allows various individuals to claim authority and I can understand the principles behind their acquisition of knowledge, even if I do not specifically have in-depth knowledge of their special area of interest. But it is difficult to see or understand how a religious leader claims their authority and I can see no rational reason to accept their word simply because they proclaim it to be the truth.

    So how did you make your decision?

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  149. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    The human heart explains all evil. No conspiracy theory is needed.

    I’m shocked a Christian would ignore clear Biblical teaching, especially when we’ve already mentioned today Eph 6 at which 6:12 says what we’re up against.

    Just how precisely do you think that’s manifested in the world, or do you think it’s not manifested at all?

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  150. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “That you have no argument and so you are forced to resort to an ad homenim.”

    I do have an argument. Your using the same theories and same sources that neo-Nazis do. Your basing your claims on the same playbook they use. That is not ad hominem, it is pointing out the truth that you and those who want to wipe the Jews from the face of the earth are making the same arguments based on the same sources.

    You have no argument, only hate.

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  151. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (741 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 3:28 pm

    “How does faith deal in reality?”

    The Christian Faith is the revelation of God thus it is reality.

    Upon what evidence do you assert this? And whatever evidence you proclaim to muster, in what manner can it be differentiated from any other religion that proclaims to offer similar evidence?

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  152. mikenmild (12,319 comments) says:

    Good point Weihana. How can we be expected to choose between Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or Pastafarianism?

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  153. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    shawnlh

    You really have got your knickers in a twist over this one. I can always tell when I have a god botherer starting to question their own faith because they become abusive.

    The Christian faith does not deal in reality given that nobody can prove that your Christ exists. As for your statement to the effect that the Christian theory does not indoctrinate but “seeks to reveal God’s truth”, well that is laughable. If you are so sure of your gods existence then you would not seek to indoctrinate the young (surely one of the most evil acts done in the name of Christianity) with the bullshit before they are able to form their own opinion.

    I am constantly amazed at the way you bible bashers can manipulate the truth to suit your own argument.

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  154. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Yet I think there is something different about trusting the authority of, say, a Physicist who assures me that gravitational waves have been detected and this implies something about the beggining of the Universe, and a religious leader who proclaims knowledge of “God’s truth”.”

    Except I didn’t follow any religious leader in making my choice. I based it on my own research and experience.

    Your assumption, which is wrong, is that only naturalistic information is valid knowledge. How do you know?

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  155. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    The human heart explains all evil. No conspiracy theory is needed.

    I guess you are unaware of the translation error in Jeremiah 17:9: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”
    The idea of wickedness isn’t present in the original text.

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  156. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (742 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 3:28 pm

    Faith is trust gained from the real world experience of walking with Jesus.

    What evidence do you have that you have walked with Jesus?

    Real faith is evidence based.

    That’s a contradiction in terms. If you proclaim evidence and proof then you should drop the term “faith”. If your ideology is based on evidence and proof then it is subject to scientific inquiry.

    “Would someone have the same approach to engineering an aeroplane?”

    Would you try to explain love, beauty and goodness by referring to an engineering manual?

    If that manual detailed how the human brain worked then yes the objective way to explain it would be by reference to such a manual.

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  157. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    Shawnlh

    “Conspiracy theories bore the crap out of me”

    Oh the irony!!!

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  158. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    How can we be expected to choose between Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or Pastafarianism?

    By applying theology to the problem.

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  159. mikenmild (12,319 comments) says:

    I’m betting my Pastafarianism will come out on top. R’amen.

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  160. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “You really have got your knickers in a twist over this one. ”

    Not really. I don’t take these debates on KB very seriously at all.

    ” I can always tell when I have a god botherer starting to question their own faith because they become abusive.”

    I’m only questioning your ludicrous reasoning. I wasn’t abusive, I was merely pointing out that your argumentation is invalid.

    “The Christian faith does not deal in reality given that nobody can prove that your Christ exists.”

    Your version of “proof” does not define reality, only your prejudice and un-examined assumptions.

    “If you are so sure of your gods existence”

    I’m not. I do however trust Jesus.

    “then you would not seek to indoctrinate the young (surely one of the most evil acts done in the name of Christianity) with the bullshit before they are able to form their own opinion.”

    So you would not tell a child not to cross a street in front of oncoming traffic, you would leave them to form their own opinion by being run over?

    “I am constantly amazed at the way you bible bashers can manipulate the truth to suit your own argument.”

    Your manipulating words to suit your own argument. Claiming that Christians are indoctrinated is manipulating the truth to suit your prejudice.

    Try again BB, your convenient double standards are showing :)

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  161. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “How can we be expected to choose between Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or Pastafarianism?”

    Have you ever tried?

    For a start try ‘The Reason For God’ by Timothy Keller.

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  162. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “If that manual detailed how the human brain worked then yes the objective way to explain it would be by reference to such a manual.”

    What makes you think love, truth and beauty can be reduced to the brain? The brain plays a role, but your theological assumptions are showing in assuming that evrything can be boiled down to a purely naturalistic explanation.

    In short, your promoting your secular religion based on your faith (unprovable) that only that which the five senses can experience is all there is. But you cannot prove that, it requires faith.

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  163. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere and fillest all things; Treasury of Blessings, and Giver of Life – come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls

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  164. mikenmild (12,319 comments) says:

    Thanks Shawn, but I’m just going to keep my trust in His Noodly Appendages.

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  165. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Thanks Shawn, but I’m just going to keep my trust in His Noodly Appendages.”

    Well, if that religion works for you mike, all power to you! ;)

    Sounds a bit unhygienic to me though.

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  166. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    I suspect that this depiction is rather flattering of mikenmild. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3igwn2s2v7xh5rq/FSM%202.jpg

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  167. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere and fillest all things; Treasury of Blessings, and Giver of Life – come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls”

    I love the Trisagion prayers. I use them every day.

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  168. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (743 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 3:35 pm

    Except I didn’t follow any religious leader in making my choice. I based it on my own research and experience.

    It is difficult to conceive of the “research” and “experience” that would provide the basis for a rational choice to be made.

    Your assumption, which is wrong, is that only naturalistic information is valid knowledge. How do you know?

    I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “naturalistic information”.

    I would say, however, that knowledge can only be derived from physical senses (whatever those might be) which create mental perceptions which can then be used for conceptual identification so that our experiences can be integrated in a (ideally) non-contradictory way.

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  169. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    We are God’s creation Shawn, created in his image, why the amount of energy devoted to denying this is expended on this thread every day is a mystery to me.

    Some people just want to wallow in the muck, not look beyond it I guess

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  170. mikenmild (12,319 comments) says:

    Because such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Instead, we see no evidence.

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  171. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (748 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 3:48 pm

    What makes you think love, truth and beauty can be reduced to the brain? The brain plays a role, but your theological assumptions are showing in assuming that evrything can be boiled down to a purely naturalistic explanation.

    The evidence indicates that our feelings and emotions have a physical location and that is within the brain. The manipulation of how we feel can be observed through direct stimulation of the brain.

    I have no evidence of anything other than the brain being responsible for feelings and emotions. Therefore I have no rational basis to claim that there is something other than our brains being responsible for them.

    It is true I am making an assumption: the assumption is that a proposition with supporting evidence should not be rejected on the basis of the mere possibility that unknown evidence might exist to contradict that proposition.

    As for whether everything requires a “naturalistic” explanation, I have to question what you mean by “naturalistic” and what alternatives you proffer.

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  172. Gulag1917 (1,083 comments) says:

    German TV does first Edward Snowden Interview
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151

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  173. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    We are God’s creation Shawn, created in his image, why the amount of energy devoted to denying this is expended on this thread every day is a mystery to me.

    According to the Anglicans this image doesn’t have a physical body.

    I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions;

    This doctrine probably was derived from Paul’s doctrine, which is similar to Gnosticism in this respect.

    For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Galatians 5:17

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  174. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “It is difficult to conceive of the “research” and “experience” that would provide the basis for a rational choice to be made.”

    Difficult for you perhaps.

    “I would say, however, that knowledge can only be derived from physical senses ”

    How do you know? That’s what I mean by secular religion. There is a problem with your statement however. Let me help.

    “”I BELIEVE, however, that knowledge can only be derived from physical senses ”

    Secular religion. You cannot prove nor know for sure that knowledge can only be derived from the physical senses. It requires faith.

    And the vast, vast amount of human experience would strongly suggest otherwise.

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  175. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    I have to be at work in 40 mins. Buy for now.

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  176. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/turkey-youtube-ban-full-transcript-leaked-syria-war-conversation-between-erdogan-officials-1442161

    Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s ban of YouTube occurred after a leaked conversation between Head of Turkish Intelligence Hakan Fidan and Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu that he wanted removed from the video-sharing website.

    The leaked call details Erdogan’s thoughts that an attack on Syria “must be seen as an opportunity for us [Turkey]”.

    In the conversation, intelligence chief Fidan says that he will send four men from Syria to attack Turkey to “make up a cause of war”.

    Deputy Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Yaşar Güler replies that Fidan’s projected actions are “a direct cause of war…what you’re going to do is a direct cause of war”.

    Turkey’s foreign ministry said the leaked recording of top officials discussing the Syria operation was “partially manipulated” and is a “wretched attack” on national security.

    In the leaked video, Fidan is discussing with Davutoğlu, Güler and other officials a possible operation within Syria to secure the tomb of Suleyman Shah, grandfather of the founder of the Ottoman empire.

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  177. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (750 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 4:14 pm

    “It is difficult to conceive of the “research” and “experience” that would provide the basis for a rational choice to be made.”

    Difficult for you perhaps.

    If I said to a physicist “It’s difficult to conceive how we could research what the stars are made of” I may get a response like “Well you see through experiment we know that certain elements absorb particular wavelengths of light and by looking at starlight we can see absorption bands which tells us what those stars are made of”. I would be surprised if the scientist responded “difficult for you perhaps” and I would find it immensely strange and ponder what the source of his negative predisposition was. Was it the mere fact that I was questioning him on his proclaimed area of knowledge?

    “I would say, however, that knowledge can only be derived from physical senses ”

    How do you know? That’s what I mean by secular religion. There is a problem with your statement however. Let me help.

    “”I BELIEVE, however, that knowledge can only be derived from physical senses ”

    Secular religion. You cannot prove nor know for sure that knowledge can only be derived from the physical senses. It requires faith.

    I agree that I cannot prove that knowledge can “only” be acquired from physical senses. However, I have no evidence for anything else so I presume that is the only way. But I don’t agree that this is “faith” since all I am assuming is that if I have no evidence for something then I cannot logically or rationally base a decision on that for which I have no evidence.

    Fairy’s and dragons may exist. But what evidence do I have that they do? Perhaps every time I jump off a tall building to my otherwise certain death a magical trampolene appears out of nowhere to break my fall. It only appears for me, I’m a very special person. I have no evidence of this magic trampoline. In making decisions should I assume that this possibility is equal to the possibility that there is no such trampoline and if I jump off a tall building I will in fact die?

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  178. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (750 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 4:16 pm

    I have to be at work in 40 mins. Buy for now.

    Night shift on a Friday night? There is no God. :)

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  179. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    shawnlh

    “Claiming that Christians are indoctrinated is manipulating the truth to suit your prejudice.”

    All the evidence shows that indoctrination is exactly what happens.

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  180. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    :lol:

    Always has the same end point

    Faith in god .

    Is the rational response.

    Atheism

    Or is an honest estimation of the odds ?

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  181. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    Looks like quite a few got on the piss after lunchtime. Obvious that the Public Service only does 4 1/2 days work a week – if that

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  182. mikenmild (12,319 comments) says:

    Now, now, don’t knock the public servants. Backbone of this great nation.

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  183. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    ….”don’t knock the public servants. Backbone of this great nation”….

    If ever there was a comment in need of a smiley, that was it. :)

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  184. mikenmild (12,319 comments) says:

    A smiley of approval, I’m sure.

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  185. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    This is good.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/chris_hadfield_what_i_learned_from_going_blind_in_space#t-634570

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  186. Fletch (6,519 comments) says:

    Because such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Instead, we see no evidence

    Actually, we see evidence everywhere. First is the fine tuning of the Universe. The second is DNA.
    Our DNA is so complex, it’s like a programming language. Bill Gates said in The Road Ahead, ““Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.” And we’re to believe that this came about by chance? I very much doubt it. In fact, one of the scientists who discovered DNA, Francis Crick, saw that it was too complex to have come about by chance so (being an atheist) had to come up with the theory that Earth was seeded by space aliens, which process he referred to as Directed panspermia (although he reportedly later dropped the theory).

    Still, if you believe in evolution, you have to believe that our DNA programming randomly advanced from the computer equivalent of –

    10 PRINT “HELLO WORLD”

    to an operating system for the human body more complicated than Windows 7 or OSX on its own.

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  187. SGA (1,249 comments) says:

    @Fletch at 7:04

    The argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy that essentially relies on a lack of imagination in the audience.
    The general form of the argument is as follows.
    Minor premise: One can’t imagine (or has not imagined) how P could be so.
    Major premise (unstated): If P, then one could imagine (or would have imagined) how P could be so.
    Conclusion: Not-P.

    As a syllogism this is valid. The fallacy lies in the unstated major premise. If a state of affairs is impossible to imagine, it doesn’t follow that it is false; it may only mean that imagination is limited. Moreover, if no one has yet managed to imagine how a state of affairs is possible, it doesn’t follow that no one will ever be able to.

    from – http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

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  188. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Chris Trotter:

    But, failure and humiliation are precisely what lies in store for the FBI should Dotcom succeed in delaying the extradition procedures initiated against him by the US Attorney-General long enough to allow an electorally successful Internet Party to negotiate favourable political interventions on his behalf.

    What do the elites fear in relation to Kim Dotcom? Is it merely the possibility that the Internet Party (all the predictions of its inevitable failure notwithstanding) might actually turn out to play a decisive role in the forthcoming election? That this, in turn, might result in Dotcom evading extradition to the US – something bound to cause acute embarrassment not only to the FBI and the US Department of Justice, but also to our own “Deep State”? Do they fear that an Internet Party strong enough to get Dotcom off the hook might also be sufficiently well-positioned to bring down the GCSB and take New Zealand out of the “Five Eyes” agreement?

    It is undoubtedly all of these things.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/03/28/the-orchestration-of-hate-why-are-the-elites-so-afraid-of-kim-dotcom/

    Wow. It undoubtedly looks like Trotter has jumped the shark.

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  189. Fletch (6,519 comments) says:

    SGA, of course I don’t believe that.
    The Universe is governed by laws. If it weren’t – if the laws changed depending on time of day or some other circumstance, then we wouldn’t be able to learn or discover anything about the Universe.

    As it happens, there are laws. And these laws do not change. We can be certain of things because of these laws, such as that the Law Of Gravity is always the same. By using these we come up with predictions and make assumptions. We look at one thing and we know we can apply the laws we learned yesterday (by studying something else), to the thing we’re looking at today.

    As far as DNA – well, let’s go back and look at anything designed.
    Without fail it goes in this sequence –

    1. Intelligence
    2. Intelligence creates the plan or blueprint.
    3. The thing is designed from the blueprint.

    A created thing does not self-generate the program or blueprint that describes it.

    It always follows –

    Intelligence -> blueprint -> House
    Intelligence -> computer program -> App
    Intelligence -> written music -> symphony
    Intelligence -> circuit design -> computer (or even robot)

    Now, the human creature has a DNA that is programmed, as I pointed out, a program that is more complex that Windows 7, and that has subroutines that programmed our breathing, circulation, thinking, waste management, and the like.

    You’re suggesting (that is, if you believe in evolution), that all this developed randomly, and self generated the DNA programming to run it. Everything we know about creation says that is in reverse. That can’t happen.

    Even if the earth were filled with all of the building blocks of life, those pieces would never have assembled into a cell. In their book Evolution from Space, Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe argue that the probability of life arising on earth on its own is on the order of one chance in 10^40000 (10 to the power of 40000)

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  190. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    I bumped into my mate the other day, coming out of a beauty salon.

    ‘Hello Dave’ I said, ‘what were you up to in there then?’

    ‘Oh mate’ he replied, ‘its really embarrassing, I’ve just booked a back, crack, and sack wax’

    ‘That’s nothing to be ashamed of,’ I said, ‘most men do stuff like that nowadays’

    ‘I know’ he replied ‘but I’ve booked this for the wife’.

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  191. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Everything we know about creation…

    …is that it’s a belief. Nothing else is known about it. There is no scientific evidence of it, there is no recorded history of it.

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  192. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (21,691 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 7:20 pm

    The way I see it, whilst I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised that the IP will actually get quite a few votes because they will become the default ‘none of the above’ choice, I am sure no other party will be prepared to go into coalition with them. Basically they will act like a ‘flea in ya knickers’, a constant annoyance with a disturbing bite.

    I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see the election so close, that neither the left or the right will be able to form a government, and with neither being willing to go into coalition with IP, we will go back to the polls. Those that refrained from voting, or voted on a whim, will then vote in earnest, and a clear result will eventually be reached.

    I believe we are a divided nation, and what we really need is a single party, and not a coalition govt. But I doubt that will happen again in my lifetime.

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  193. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    “Now, the human creature has a DNA that is programmed, as I pointed out, a program that is more complex that Windows 7, and that has subroutines that programmed our breathing, circulation, thinking, waste management, and the like.”

    Fuck Fletch are you saying that we are all the organic spawn of Windows 8?

    Mass suicide suddenly becomes a viable option! :)

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  194. Fletch (6,519 comments) says:

    Johnboy, at least it isn’t Vista ;)

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  195. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    “I believe we are a divided nation, and what we really need is a single party, and not a coalition govt. But I doubt that will happen again in my lifetime.”

    krim.con believes that too Judith. He studies Mein Kampf! :)

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  196. Fletch (6,519 comments) says:

    ps, interestingly, is was DNA evidence that converted lifelong atheist Anthony Flew to beliving in God, although he claimed he was a Deist, not a Theist. He wrote the book There Is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind in 2007.

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  197. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    mike @ 6.02
    I gave you an uptick, who was the shithead that downvoted you?

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  198. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Everytime I look out my window at my happy sheep framed by the Wainui mountains Fletch I see a Vista! :)

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  199. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy

    Kim studies your struggle? Really? What are you struggling with Johnboy?

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  200. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    It was that fuckin Minus cunt Steve (North Shore)…… and he was aiming at me but was pissed or stoned! :)

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  201. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    I hope I’m not as confusing as Windows 8. I started on CP/M and have worked my way through six versions of PC and MS DOS. I skipped early Windows but got in a bit at version 2 and then extensively at 3.1 and have worked my way up the versions (skipping ME and Vista). The worst transition by a long way is to Windows 8, it frustrates the hell out of me.

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  202. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    As her son was getting ready for his date his the mother asked, “So where did you meet her?”
    “On the internet” he told her.
    “What, one of those dating sites?” she enquired.
    “Yeah, sort of”, the son mumbled.
    “Aww that’s sweet, so what’s her name?” She asked.
    “WainuiomataSlut69″.

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  203. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Sorry Judith your logic has lost me there Hitler wrote Mein Kampf not me.

    However I would have be proud to have written such a tome! :)

    It’s just that my life has never been a struggle so I have never had the need to bother! :)

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  204. Fletch (6,519 comments) says:

    Pete. I never really got my head around it. I was really comfortable programming in Commodore=64 BASIC, and even some 6502 machine language but after that I never did much around programming in DOS or anything PC-related. I really should have learned.

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  205. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    Fletch (5,635 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 7:52 pm

    You’re suggesting (that is, if you believe in evolution), that all this developed randomly…

    You are labouring under a misconception. Evolution is not “random”. The principle behind evolution is natural selection. Nature selects for those things that confer an advantage.

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  206. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ johnboy

    you said ‘he studies Mein Kampf’. Mein Kampf translates as ‘my struggles’ in German.

    I thought you were telling us that he studies your struggles – I wasn’t aware you had any. :P

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  207. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Why the fuck having got rid of your desktop do you have to head to right screen to get settings to get turn off to get do you want to when all you want is a bloody “OFF” button?

    Gates is a fucking sadist! :)

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  208. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I was starting to think you were intelligent Judith. Your last couple have made me realise you’re a twat.

    Everybody except you realises Hitler not Johnboy wrote Mein Kampf.

    I think even krim.con knows that.

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  209. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (13,187 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 8:23 pm

    It is a mistake to think anything about anyone on here or any internet site Johnboy IMO.

    I was simply being a smartass to prevent getting into yet another argument about the current issue.

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  210. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    I’m gonna set a trap for ‘minus’ Johnboy. I am not ‘minus’
    I am right eye sighted and left eye sighted, actualy I am both eye sighted. I play snooker the same way!
    Use the eye that is open lol

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  211. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    nasska @ 8.15
    Cloe lives

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  212. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Why would you not want to get into an argument about Windows 8 Judith?

    Everyone knows it’s a dog! :)

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  213. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Chloe doesn’t live with me Steve (North Shore) and for that I am eternally grateful! :)

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  214. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    Don’t the slippers float your boat JB? :)

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  215. Fletch (6,519 comments) says:

    Why would you not want to get into an argument about Windows 8 Judith?

    The tiles.. the tiles!

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  216. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (13,192 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 8:35 pm

    I’ll have you know I think a hell of a lot more of my dog, than I do of Windows 8. I had it and reverted back to Windows 7.
    I’ve had a computer since 1988 – and apart from ME, Windows 8 would be the biggest headache of an operating system I’ve used.

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  217. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    “I’ve had a computer since 1988″……. Late starter darling :)

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  218. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Let it be known that I am currently talking to you chaps on Windows 8 but it/you hasn’t improved my experience so I think I’ll pop off and check out the porn! :)

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  219. SGA (1,249 comments) says:

    Judith at 8:52 pm

    I’ve had a computer since 1988

    Just out of curiosity – what was it? I had an Osbourne (or Osborne?) for a while during the 80s.

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  220. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ SGA

    Can’t remember the first one, but the second one we got was a Commodore ?? Then it was a 386 (wahoo!!, such power!) and a disk drive! From then it was windows this that and the other…

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  221. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Johnboy (13,196 comments) says:
    March 28th, 2014 at 8:58 pm
    Let it be known that I am currently talking to you chaps on Windows 8

    It’s okay, we won’t hold it against you. OS Jealousy is so ‘last year’.

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  222. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Oh dear, bit of an upset for the Crusaders!

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  223. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Toys when I was a kid where the obsolete artifacts of the rapid adoption of computing and ic’s
    dad was a sales man for office equipment When we went from mechanical adding machines and pen pushing clerks to Ibm mainframes and puchcards in the sixtys/ seventys

    I remember going with dad to deliver a component for an ibm mainframe somewhere on the SI west coast in around 1967/8
    five years old and jammed into a triumph herald wagon with a hundred thousand dollars worth of cutting edge high-tech. :lol:we had a minor head on and dad shit himself at the potental damage.
    .

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  224. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    “….Mein Kampf translates as ‘my struggles’ in German…….”

    The Female Unuch -by Germanine Greer translates as ‘my struggles’- in the everyday bitching and whinging language of wimmin Judith. :cool:

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  225. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    It undoubtedly looks like Trotter has jumped the shark.

    I think he’s sewing seeds of doubt about the campaign amongst the base Pete because of the fallout potential amongst every single party of the left since all have courted him. If you notice he uses the “elite” word a great deal and he not once mentions the “Nazi” word nor even touches on the allegations.

    As you know in the left base they pride themselves on supporting those parties who are touchy-feely and weally weally weally care till their widdle hearts bleed and bleed and the allegation they’ve been courting a Nazi sympathiser clearly cuts to the very core of that hallucination their base actually truly does hold. Like a knife, in a heartbeat.

    The left cannot afford to have that fester amongst the base for any time at all, it’s so powerful.

    So I’m reading Trotter’s piece and thanks for the link, as a first shot in what’s going to become an extremely interesting propaganda silent war played out over the next few weeks between the left and the right.

    I’ve said many times conservatives don’t get propaganda and from all their actions to date they don’t, whereas the left do get it and they live by it and they practice nothing but, all the time. So these next few weeks are going to be a test of that hypothesis and I really hope I’m proved wrong, but I don’t think I will be. I predict the conservatives will stand by and do nothing and leave Cam to make the running on his own. And I predict such action will allow the left to wriggle out of this trap and let them publicly distance themselves from KDC and isolate him in the quarantine center courtesy of their “serious” MSM connections who will play along with them, every step of the way.

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  226. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth and Reid’s fellow travelers at work. This is where anti-Jewish conspiracies lead.

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/27/victim-savage-anti-semitic-attack-in-paris-recounts-beating/?intcmp=latestnews

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  227. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth and Reid’s fellow travelers at work.

    I love Jews Shawn. I hate Zionists.

    Just like Jesus loved the Jewish people but hated the Jewish money changers (so much he made a whip out of cords and drove them out of the temple).

    Want to be like Jesus?

    Educate yourself.

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  228. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Nice little earner with the Canes at $4.60 to win.

    May they bite a few more teams and turn them into teams that also miss the playoffs. The Chiefs and Blues next?

    Funny thing is someone still has to win the New Zealand conference …

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  229. Hodor (38 comments) says:

    Well GD was a complete waste of time tonight with all this god bullshit.

    However mikemild was spot on with pastafarianism – awesome stuff. Penne for your thoughts?

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  230. Reid (16,681 comments) says:

    Well GD was a complete waste of time tonight with all this god bullshit.

    Yes. Far more important to discuss pathetic meaningless lives and the insignificant planet they live on for the short time they’re around.

    I mean who knows how many important bimbos did who knows what important stuff while we were focused elsewhere, blocking people’s keyboards so they couldn’t even post a subject they wanted to discuss.

    You must be very angry Hodor. I’m so sorry.

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  231. Hodor (38 comments) says:

    Lol I am not angry it is just a waste of time reading all of this theological claptrap based on some imaginary stories.

    Why would you live your life based on some flaky crap from 2000 years ago? Laughable really.

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  232. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    J E S U S

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  233. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth and Reid’s fellow travelers at work. This is where anti-Jewish conspiracies lead.

    Misdirection. It’s about Zionism, not Judaism.

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  234. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    ” it is just a waste of time reading all of this theological claptrap based on some imaginary stories.”

    How do you know they are imaginary?

    “Why would you live your life based on some flaky crap from 2000 years ago? ”

    Because I have experienced Jesus in my life, powerfully and deeply. I have learn’t to trust Him, which leads to trusting Scripture.

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  235. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “I love Jews Shawn. I hate Zionists.”

    Zionists are Jews, thus you hate Jews.

    “Just like Jesus loved the Jewish people but hated the Jewish money changers”

    He didn’t hate them, he opposed what they were doing, but not because they were Jews, and not because of some silly conspiracy theory.

    I am educated. That is how I know the Khazar theory is hogwash.

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  236. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Let it be known that I am currently talking to you chaps on Windows 8″

    Gotcha beat. Win 8.1 ;)

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  237. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    Big Bruv,

    “All the evidence shows that indoctrination is exactly what happens.”

    LOL. “all the evidence”. You mean your opinion. Your confusing your prejudice with evidence bb.

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  238. Hodor (38 comments) says:

    ShawnLH – how do I know they are imaginary? Because there is no proof that they are real.. Simple really.

    Don’t say the bible is proof because anyone can say some book is proof of anything.

    “trust him” lol – how simple are you?

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  239. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    Weihana,

    “However, I have no evidence for anything else”

    Have you looked? The evidence is there, and much of it is staring you in the face.

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  240. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    Hodor,

    “how do I know they are imaginary? Because there is no proof that they are real”

    There is no “proof” they are not. Thus you cannot know intellectually one way or another. Thus you don’t in fact know as you claim. However millions upon millions of human beings have had experiences of the Divine. There sheer number of people who have had such experiences is evidence. Not proof (there is no proof of anything this side of death) but it is evidence.

    ““trust him” lol – how simple are you?”

    How simple are you? Assuming that you cannot know if something is or is not there when you have not looked in the first place is being simple, or more accurately, it is limiting your knowledge solely based on prejudice.

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  241. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Get over your fantasy world spawn .
    FAITH
    By its very nature is ineffable
    And unreal.

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  242. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Get over your fantasy”

    Get over yours.

    “FAITH By its very nature is ineffable”

    Faith is trusting in the reality of the Living God and by it’s very nature, real.

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  243. Hodor (38 comments) says:

    There is no “proof” they are not. Thus you cannot know intellectually one way or another. However millions upon millions of human beings have had experiences of the Divine. There sheer number of people who have had such experiences is evidence.

    Millions of people experienced the divine? Bullshit. They thought something and decided it was divine. Millions of people thought the world was flat which does not mean it is.

    Looked? I don’t have to look. If there is some thing there that is so amazing surely it would be quite obvious. You are stating the existence of some thing so the onus is on you to prove it, which you can’t

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  244. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Faith in God is reasonable, the opine that there is no evidence that there is a God is also reasonable.

    Thus a deist can co-exist with both those of faith and those who doubt the existence of God. It is even easier to co-exist with agnostics though as they don’t bring theism and belief in scripture into the debate, or go from a conviction that there is no God to disdain for those who have a faith in God.

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  245. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    It was once said that one did not discuss politics or religion at the dinner table, as conflict was not good for enjoying the wine with the meal.

    But those who discuss politics will have to deal with religion being mentioned and those who are religious have to accept the reality of political co-existence with those without faith.

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  246. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “Millions of people experienced the divine? Bullshit. They thought something and decided it was divine.”

    I have such experiences regularly. They are not mere thoughts.

    “Millions of people thought the world was flat”

    Not really. This is called urban myth. The idea that people believed the earth was flat was invented in the 19th century. Anyone familiar with classical Pagan and Christian cosmology knows that pre-“enlightenment” peoples did not believe in a flat earth.

    “Looked? I don’t have to look.”

    Self imposed blindness is irrational.

    ” If there is some thing there that is so amazing surely it would be quite obvious.”

    It is obvious.

    “You are stating the existence of some thing so the onus is on you to prove it”

    No it’s not. The onus is on you to prove your claim that it’s not, but you can’t because as you admit, you refuse to look. And as I said, you cannot prove anything at all this side of death.

    But there are ways to find out.

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  247. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    That local JW had such a good game in Melbourne for the Rebels that I lost some fiat money on the Brumbies.

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  248. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The entire argument for god is based on Faith.

    In a god you insist is Ineffable.

    No faith leaves no logical reason to have such a concept.

    Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, in the doctrines or teachings of a religion, or view. It can also be belief that is not based on proof.[1]

    Ineffability is concerned with ideas that cannot or should not be expressed in spoken words (or language in general), often being in the form of a taboo or incomprehensible term. This property is commonly associated with philosophy, aspects of existence, and similar concepts that are inherently “too great”, complex, or abstract to be adequately communicated. In addition, illogical statements, principles, reasons, and arguments may be considered intrinsically ineffable along with impossibilities, contradictions, and paradoxes. Terminology describing the nature of experience cannot be properly conveyed in dualistic symbolic language; it is believed that this knowledge is only held by the individual from which it originates. Profanity and vulgarisms can easily and clearly be stated, but by those who believe they should not be said, they are considered ineffable. Thus, one method of describing something that is ineffable is by using apophasis, i.e. describing what it is not, rather than what it is. The architect Le Corbusier described his design for the interior of the Chapel of Notre Dame du Haut at Ronchamp as “l’espace indicible” translated to mean ‘ineffable space’, a spiritual experience which was difficult to describe.

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  249. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “The entire argument for god is based on Faith.”

    No, not at all.

    “Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, in the doctrines or teachings of a religion, or view. It can also be belief that is not based on proof.”

    There is no such thing as “proof” of anything. You cannot even prove that you exist.

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  250. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    No Evidence of the Supernatural?

    Skeptics claim that there is no evidence that any kind of spiritual realm exists. However, scientific studies show the efficacy of intercessory prayer and the effects of religion on personal health. In addition, there is evidence of a spiritual realm that is devoted to the promulgation of evil.

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evidence_of_the_supernatural.html

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  251. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    “The entire argument for god is based on Faith.”

    No, not at all.

    :lol:

    fail spawn

    there is nothing else that anchors your world view.

    all your argument for god’s existence are matters of your faith.

    You are going to resort to your projection of such weakness onto me.

    If you take out faith… no reason for belief in god

    your entire proposition falls on the hurdle of empirical evidence.

    How did you become effected with the faith virus?

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  252. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Talking about Faith

    Noah

    Russel Crowe is not allowed an Australian Passport

    Russell Crowe loses fight to become Australian citizen due to immigration loophole

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/entertainment/sydney-confidential/russell-crowe-loses-fight-to-become-australian-citizen-due-to-immigration-loophole/story-fni0cvc9-1226670498096

    “I know why the rules are in place and I understand and respect that, but there has to be some form of arbitration where you can state your case. These rules are not big enough to engage with the complexity of people’s lives.”

    LIKE LAW MAKERS and FLAG ALTERERS

    Most people don’t know what the NZ in ANZAC stands for do they?

    Can’t Wait to see the Movie

    if they banned it – IT IS GREAT

    A truly inspirational KIWI

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  253. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Yep anyone seems to be able to come to NZ

    and it does not seem to matter how successful you are in AUS

    they are happy to take the tax money and take the p8ss

    but if he was from any other country they would

    ROLL OUT THE “RED” CARPET

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  254. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    “all your argument for god’s existence are matters of your faith.”

    They are matters of faith, reason and experience.

    “If you take out faith… no reason for belief in god”

    There is reason for faith in God in reason itself.

    “your entire proposition falls on the hurdle of empirical evidence.”

    Prove to me you exist.

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  255. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    Dr. Timothy Keller. The truth about atheism.

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  256. ShawnLH (6,581 comments) says:

    The Incoherence of Atheism – Ravi Zacharias.

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  257. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Meanwhile the hunter has identified an object in the new search area. They will be sending in the sea dogs to identify whether this is real evidence of the continuing existence of debris from the missing plane.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26786549

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  258. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    HEY D HEAD

    “The Meaning of Life is Life itself”

    pretty simple look around

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  259. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Now seeing as JK has raised gst to 15% you probably can’t afford to waste money on the herald

    so some news from – the chinese newspaper

    “GLOBAL TIMES”

    Global being the “operative word”

    >
    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/851476.shtml
    >

    In his speech in France, Xi described China as a “peaceful, amicable and civilized” lion that has woken up. He was referring to French emperor Napoleon Bonaparte’s description of China as a sleeping lion, which would “shake the world” after it woke up.

    >
    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/851275.shtml
    China urges US to stop arms sales to Taiwan

    The comments also came days ahead of the arrival of some US-made Apache attack helicopters in Taiwan.

    “Some Americans have recently clamored for arms sales to Taiwan, which is not in line with joint efforts by China and the United States to build a new model of relations, including a new model of military relations, between major powers,” Geng said.

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  260. RichardX (330 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (764 comments) says:
    March 29th, 2014 at 12:01 am
    No Evidence of the Supernatural?
    Skeptics claim that there is no evidence that any kind of spiritual realm exists. However, scientific studies show the efficacy of intercessory prayer and the effects of religion on personal health. In addition, there is evidence of a spiritual realm that is devoted to the promulgation of evil.
    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evidence_of_the_supernatural.html

    The scientific evidence is against you on the efficacy of intercessory prayer and as far as the effects of religion on personal health, no one denies the placebo effect

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-prayer-prescription/

    http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/

    This last one is just for the balance against your apologetics website
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/15/study-concludes-intercessory-prayer-doesnt-work-christians-twist-the-results/

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