Japan loses

March 31st, 2014 at 11:00 pm by David Farrar

(with support from ) has won against in the International Court of Justice with a 12-4 ruling that ’s programme is not scientific research and it has stated that Japan should not issue any further permits.

The decisions of the ICJ are final and can not be appealed. Of course a state could refuse to implement them, but the reputational loss would be massive.

Japan may halt their whaling programme entirely, or try and create a new “scientific” programme in the future. It has been suggested in the past that they wanted to end it anyway, but didn’t want to be seen giving into the quasi-terrorism of Sea Shepherd. So hopefully they will accept the court ruling, abandon the pretense that the whaling was for scientific purposes and cease operations. That would be a good thing.

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43 Responses to “Japan loses”

  1. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Good. It’s been evident for a long time that they were full of shit.

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  2. wreck1080 (3,972 comments) says:

    The UN pushes so much other crap on us that I don’t really care what they say when it comes to actual serious issues. The UN is always preaching to us here in NZ about various rubbish . Sending their little envoys to lecture us about human rights when those envoys sometimes come from countries with appalling human rights records.

    I’m not sure that going against the UN ruling means much really. We here in NZ do it all the time don’t we? Such as ignoring UN advice on climate change and other matters.

    But in saying that, Japan have certainly been dickheads about whaling for ‘scientific’ purposes.

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  3. Matt (227 comments) says:

    I never understood the western anger about Japan’s whale fishery. The whales they hunt are less endangered than tuna yet most of us probably eat some of that every week. They are intelligent mammals, yes, but then so are pigs. Surely by the logic of the anti-whaling activists, we should all become vegetarians. I know that’s something I’m not prepared to do.

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  4. Matt (227 comments) says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_bluefin_tuna
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowfin_tuna
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minke_whale

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  5. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    No Matt, we should refuse to eat anything that isn’t subject to the absolute minimum of pain and suffering necessary to get it to our plate. I eat pork, but when the neighbours we once had decided to bring live ones home and then dispatch them by putting a pole on their neck and having someone stand on each end, I raised hell.

    The Japanese have a shocking record of animal cruelty. John Banks once spoke out about how appalled he was by sitting in a restaurant and seeing Japanese diners dismember a live crayfish and eat it at the table. It could have been frozen (the most painless option) or had a cleaver between the eyes seconds before being served. Fresh, but as humane as possible.

    Similarly the appalling dolphin slaughter in Taiji. There are far more humane ways of achieving the same result (though no doubt there are those who’s argue that dolphins ought not to be killed at all).

    New Zealand has a very good record on humane farming practices, allowing us to highlight such issues without being seen as hypocrites.

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  6. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom posted at 11.59:

    …New Zealand has a very good record on humane farming practices…

    Good but not perfect, Rex, as the recent NZ dairy farming incident in Chile showed.

    On whaling, I think Norway and Iceland are still hunting.

    New Zealand had a very strong whaling history, as does Australia (in places like the bottom corner of the West Australian coast). Are we in danger of becoming ultra-righteous on this, like ex-smokers on the dangers of cigarettes?

    I am supposed to despise my now long-dead grandfather because he once toiled on an Australian whaling vessel?

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  7. Matt (227 comments) says:

    Rex, Many New Zealanders also hunt, and you’re not going to tell me that the first shot always kills the prey. In what way is this less cruel than whaling? If whaling is to be banned, should not also sport hunting? I think you’re dancing around the hypocrisy which should be staring everyone in the face.

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  8. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    Nor should we forget the Norwegian whaling link with New Zealand.

    The Norwegians’ Ross Sea whaling fleet wintered at Stewart Island, and there was intermarriage between the Norwegians and the islanders. Local lasses ended up living in Norway, and Norwegians settled in the south. Their descendants pop up in surprising places.

    Norwegians laugh that New Zealand, once as heavily into whaling as their own country, is at the forefront of the campaign against whaling.

    NZ whaling legends deserve to be celebrated. For example, Paddy Gilroy and the Chance, of Bluff. Paddy got hero treatment in Frank Bullen’s American whaling classic, The Cruise of the Cachalot. Bullen described Paddy as “unsurpassed as a whale-fisher or a seaman by any Yankee that ever sailed from Martha’s Vineyard”. Gilroy descendants still live at Bluff.

    The whalers of nearly two centuries ago, who went after whales with lances hurled from rowed long boats, through intermarriage and recruiting Maori into the industry, IMHO set NZ on its eventually relatively amicable partnership of Maori and British.

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  9. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    The Japanese will have to find some other customary activity to assert their cultural identity. Perhaps they could build a railway.

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  10. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    They have great railways, Tom, like the Shinkansen network, which I think is now being extended to Nagasaki, the target of one of the World War 2 atomic bombs.

    Killed more than the Burma railway, which I think is what you are hinting at in your 1.33 post.

    Time to move on, Tom.

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  11. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    OK. They can rape Korean women instead of the railway.

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  12. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    C’mon Tom.

    Do you hate the Germans, too? If so, was what the Red Army did in East Prussia and Berlin okay?

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  13. Martin Gibson (247 comments) says:

    My dad always said that when whales stranded we should have a mobile mincing plant to grind and freeze them to feed to pigs which we could then export to Japan and Norway as “whale-fed pork”. Could be a good time to start that business!

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  14. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    So we now have the situation where dignified discourse and proper process have spectacularly succeeded where eco terrorism and direct action have failed (and possibly even backfired by hardening resolve).

    There is a lesson in this but I doubt those who should heed it, will recognise it.

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  15. Akaroa (591 comments) says:

    Slighlyrighty at 6.38. I think you’ve hit the nail right on the head there, slighlyrighty.

    I’ve always felt just the slightest tinge of unease about the actual whaling itself – but with the patently illegal, not to say downright dangerous methods displayed by those oh-so-brave anti-whaling pirates and their outrageous life and safety threatening conduct on the high seas – my sympathies have generally been with the Japanese. (Albeit only just!)

    Why no-one has ever mounted an anti-anti-whaling disruptive campaign against these ‘fearless(!) protectors of the whales I’ll never know.

    I just hope they don’t now claim to have brought about this change. As far as I’m concerned all their mad, downright dangerous conduct achieved was to highlight their lunatic irresponsibility, and its good to see that quiet diplomacy and formal legal action have succeeded where their arrant hostility and life-threatening antics failed. Yes! Failed!

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  16. BlairM (2,365 comments) says:

    I honestly don’t care whether people hunt whales or not, as long as they do it according to a legal quota like everything else that gets taken out of the ocean.

    Just as I would not stop eating bacon because Muslims were offended, nor juicy steak because Hindus got all butthurt, I fail to see why Japan (or Norway for that matter) should stop hunting whales simply because a bunch of dumb Kiwi hippies think whales are cute.

    Faaahk you doorrrphin! Faahk you whale!

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  17. duggledog (1,589 comments) says:

    Matt: “If whaling is to be banned, should not also sport hunting? ”

    Eh? You can’t breed whales… and they’re not pests.

    Bit of a dumb point

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  18. MT_Tinman (3,263 comments) says:

    duggledog (1,068 comments) says:
    April 1st, 2014 at 8:23 am

    Eh? You can’t breed whales… and they’re not pests.

    Not yet.

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  19. Nick R (513 comments) says:

    I wonder if Sea Shepherd are secretly disappointed. What will they do if Japan stops whaling?

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  20. Paulus (2,672 comments) says:

    Thought I heard this morning that Japan had agreed to accept the ruling. This would be a good face saving outcome for Japan.

    A nice way of saying Up Yours Sea Shepherd. Now where are you going to spend the mugs money.

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  21. WineOh (633 comments) says:

    Astonishing that this might actually happen, and no thanks to those lunatics on the high seas from greenpeace and sea shepherd. Proper diplomatic channels, reasoned legal arguments, and a Result!

    Of course The Civilian article recently forsaw this… hilarious as usual.

    http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/japan-completes-research-discovers-tastiest-whale/

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  22. WineOh (633 comments) says:

    @ Nick R, they might have to relocate to the arctic circle to combat the Norwegians et al. Far away from us thank goodness.

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  23. mikenmild (11,792 comments) says:

    Like that Civilian, WineOh:
    ‘Now that its research is complete, Kishida said that Japan would shift its focus to a new study to determine which whales die fastest when shot with a harpoon.’

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  24. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    A wonderful result.

    Every living thing in the ocean has a purpose in the delicate eco system. Upset the balance and eventually the entire food system will fail. Let’s not forget who else relies heavy on that ocean eco system, even though we do not live within it.

    In general the numbers of whales throughout the world have dropped dramatically due to an over harvesting of them.

    Anyone that thinks they can remove too many species from the world, and that it will continue to function perfectly – is certifiably mad!

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  25. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    This is a tricky one for me. As Rex W has pointed out, we happily eat pork and bacon, and I believe it has been established that pigs are more intelligent than man’s best friend – and we recoil in horror at eating dog.

    I have never forgotten a late night conversation I had at some railway station in the UK. I struck up a convo with a guy who had just quit his job at a pig farm because he couldnt stand the terror the pigs went through on “slaughter day”. My memory of the details is a little vague now, but the guts of it was he had concluded they were highly intelligent animals who suffered terror at the thought of their impending death, and screamed the place down. But none of that stops me eating bacon or pork.

    The next target of the “animals are sacred” brigade has to be big game fishing – including tag and release. Every time there is an announcement of a record, there is wailing about the dreadful suffering a marlin goes through in the several hours it sometimes takes to boat them. I actually don’t buy that, for one simple reason. Game fish struggle and strain against the hook, sometimes for hours. Bulls have rings through their noses so they can be led along – and they can, because to pull against the ring hurts. If game fish feel pain, why don’t they docilely come along side? And it can’t because they are smart and know their likely fate…I have seen marlin tagged and released, only to take the same lure that caught them 20 minutes later.

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  26. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    @Jack5

    I am supposed to despise my now long-dead grandfather because he once toiled on an Australian whaling vessel?

    Goodness no. Different times, different understanding of animal welfare, different drivers for the activity (the use of whale oil etc).

    @Matt

    Hunting does concern me, yes, because of the small number of hunters who’ll blast away indiscriminately at anything (to the extent they’ll sometimes hit people, as we’ve seen in this country). And I oppose gin trapping anything, for instance. I would hope peer pressure from other hunters self-regulates the activity to some extent, and am told it does.

    It’s a difficult one, much more an issue of personal liberty than, say, whaling. We can, I think, only hope that hunters are mindful of the need to avoid unnecessary suffering.

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  27. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    @David Garrett

    Anything that has nerve endings feels pain. I think you’re confusing intelligence with instinct. Instinct – fear – makes the marlin struggle against something pulling it in a direction it doesn’t want to go, and instinct – hunger – makes it snap at the lure again 20 minutes later. Not the smartest of creatures, for sure, but the pain of the hook, and the exhaustion of the struggle, are very real.

    There’s been a lot of research on the topic, taking blood and other measurements from game fish after they’ve been caught, and it’s been found this causes:
    •general abnormal physiological function
    •a rise in cortisol, a known indicator of stress
    •acidity of the blood
    •death after release

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  28. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    Rex: If it causes pain, why do they struggle so on the hook? Cattle certainly feel pain (as evidenced by their reaction to branding or ear peircing…and being pulled by a ring in their nose). Perhaps that will be next…”No ear tagging or nose peircing of cattle without informed consent”.

    And while some game fish undoubtedly die after being tagged and released, I have seen charts showing fish tagged and released here ending up as far away as Hawaii before being caught again…and re-tagged and released.

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  29. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    As Rex W has pointed out, we happily eat pork and bacon

    Yeah but we don’t do it in the southern ocean. :) Oh and it’s generally done humanely.

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  30. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    “There are warehouses of whale meat in Japan. There has been no good science conducted. It has been a practice that has continued partly because of Japanese pride.” ~ Murray McCully

    So, apparently it’s about pride and not about the meat, which sits in warehouses. In other words, there’s no good reason to continue the killing.

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  31. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    David Garrett (5,017 comments) says:
    April 1st, 2014 at 11:21 am
    This is a tricky one for me. As Rex W has pointed out, we happily eat pork and bacon

    For me the issue goes like this. Pigs are farmed for eating, therefore they are not part of a natural food process.

    However, whales are not farmed, and are an integral part of a delicate eco system, that if it failed, would affect me, and mychildren/children’s children.

    We can remove farmed pigs from the chain and others would not suffer. We can actually remove wild pigs from the chain here in NZ because they were not part of the natural environment, and no other life form would die out because of that action.

    But on the reverse side, even in a natural environment animals kill to survive. But other than humans, there are not many animals that kill out of greed. They do not take more than they need and if they should hunt something to extinction, you can bet its because there is some problem within their eco system.

    Sooner or later we have to stop and think about what we are doing to our own survival chances.

    … Next Problem, sea junk.. just what sort of sea life wraps their food in tinfoil with plastic ties? If we learn anything from the disappearance of MH370, it will be that we are the most disgusting animal on the planet – one that not only doesn’t seem to respect other life forms, but doesn’t even seem to care enough about themselves to limit their own behaviours. What sort of animal shits in its own ‘fridge’?

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  32. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Do you hate the Germans, too? If so, was what the Red Army did in East Prussia and Berlin okay?

    I hate the Germans for footballing reasons more than anything else.

    The eastern front rapes are one of the great unreported crimes of the 20th century.

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  33. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    While I’m at it. I do have to give a high five to the Attorney General for the fantastic effort he made. We do need to acknowledge the government for listening to the people and sending someone to fight for us – and the whales.

    Chris Finlayson did a great job, so well done to him, and to Key for doing the right thing.

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  34. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    Ross the Commie: What on earth does it matter whether its done in Pukekohe or in the Southern Ocean?

    And as Rex has alluded to, the methods of killing “poaka” (as it is called in Tonga) probably wouldnt pass the SPCA standards here…If you are fond of pork you would just luurrve the Tongan version)…

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  35. rg (214 comments) says:

    Or Japan could just pull out of the whaling commission and then it is not bound by its rules and can then do what it likes.
    It was far better to have them in the tent kiling 1000 whales under the guise of research than have them leave and have no restriction.

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  36. rg (214 comments) says:

    The next thing to ban is recreational Marlin fishing, so cruel and so pointless, especially tag and release.

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  37. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    rg

    So marlin can go the way of tuna and broad bill in our waters.

    The biggest thing that stands between our marlin and the commercial sector as a huge ongoing expensive effort by the very thing you would like to ban.

    All we know of patterns of migration is the information that tags provide us.

    The recreational fishery has changed from a kill everything and bury most back out to sea of years ago to an almost entirely tag and release fishery voluntarily in response to the responsibility the anglers feel for the resource. It also is an economic opportunity with huge tourist prospects.

    Ps game fishing out of sail boats is mad fun solo.

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  38. Engineer (73 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom – have you a brain?

    No Matt, we should refuse to eat anything that isn’t subject to the absolute minimum of pain and suffering necessary to get it to our plate.

    Well then you should ban all hunting, because you can’t guarantee a clean head shot each time.

    You would not eat fish because most are not dispatched straight out of the water, but flop around in the hold of a ship and slowly die, gasping for oxygen.

    You would not eat any fish caught on a long line.

    The Japanese have a shocking record of animal cruelty. John Banks once spoke out about how appalled he was by sitting in a restaurant and seeing Japanese diners dismember a live crayfish and eat it at the table.

    Firstly I hardly think it happens much, if at all, and secondly it is far less cruel than what Kiwis do when they live bait a fish and have it flopping around on the end of a hook for hours, while trying to attract a big fish.

    Secondly, the Japanese eat a miniscule amount of meat compared to New Zealanders, and indeed killing animals for meat was banned for centuries, until they were introduced to the habit by Westerners.

    Thirdly, it is arguable whether lower animals like crayfish, crabs, ants, flies etc have the cognitive ‘ability’ to feel pain in the way the higher animals do.

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  39. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Engineer, have you a reading disability?

    Well then you should ban all hunting, because you can’t guarantee a clean head shot each time.

    No, read my full reply to Matt again. Slowly. With a dictionary at your elbow if necessary. We regularly weigh individual liberty against other principles. In my view, unless there’s an overwhelming reason why not, individual liberty should be upheld, and that includes the liberty to hunt. However we can ban hunting by, say, gin traps, which require no skill, offer no challenge to the hunter, and inflict unnecessary agony on the animal.

    Japanese whaling on the other hand, is unnecessary – as Murray McCully said, there are warehouses of the stuff uneaten, so it’s about stubborn pride and not a need for protein – and is not an individual activity but a well financed business. If a hungry Japanese person wishes to kayak out and spear a blue whale, I’m happy to let him.

    You would not eat fish because most are not dispatched straight out of the water, but flop around in the hold of a ship and slowly die, gasping for oxygen.

    No, given that there’s no alternative. But I would express a desire for, and pay a premium for, humanely caught fish as I pay a premium for free range eggs, chickens and pork.

    Firstly I hardly think it happens much, if at all

    Do you make any attempt to educate yourself before commenting? Didn’t think so. It happens so frequently it has a whole branch of cuisine named after it, Ikizukuri:

    Ikizukuri (生き作り), also known as ikezukuri (活け造り), is the preparation of sashimi made from live seafood. The most popular sea animal used in ikizukuri is fish but octopus, shrimp, and lobster may also be used. The practice is controversial owing to concerns about the animal’s suffering, as it is still alive when served.

    and secondly it is far less cruel than what Kiwis do when they live bait a fish and have it flopping around on the end of a hook for hours, while trying to attract a big fish.

    I don’t agree. I think both are abhorrent and would not fish using live bait.

    Thirdly, it is arguable whether lower animals like crayfish, crabs, ants, flies etc have the cognitive ‘ability’ to feel pain in the way the higher animals do.

    Cognitive ability has little to do with pain, which is processed by the lower brain. Sure, cognitive ability is needed to know “I’m in pain because of the this piece of metal through my mouth, because a human wants to eat me (or throw me back). How cruel my fate!” (which is why, as David Garrett points out, game fish end up back on the line a few minutes after being released). But the agony is felt by anything with nerve endings. Which is pretty much anything alive.

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  40. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Kill bleed and Butcher your own meat at least once.

    Personal philosophy on meat is not the same as society proscribing limits to the presently extreme views of ban all hunting killing pain.

    I have always found pigs offensive beasties to keep.

    The daily screaming endued when a riot squad of 12 weaners depart one by one to tongan fest , 21 spit.or wedding feast center piece.

    With fish I suggest a day on a trawl boat and its mechanical wastage of juveniles, odd, over quote and insufficient deem value fish stock. The trail of crushed escapees that don’t even make deck will make you wonder why we allow such wastage.

    On long line the fish can be sorted by size and species to a far greater extent. By bait depth hook size and style other choices a fisherman can make to target the catch. It is also more labour capital intensive could be used to boost employment and small businesses adding far more to nz inc as value for the catch.

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  41. Engineer (73 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom:

    For heavens sake —my point was not to get into an argument over individual rights, but simply to point out that your gratuitous comment about the Japanese having a shocking record of animal cruelty is bullshit —this is selective, and possibly racialized, outrage.

    The fact is a lot of the meat we eat in the West is from animals stuffed in small cages and crates. The Japanese eat far less meat than the average Westerner.

    Did you know that crabs and lobsters are boiled alive in the West, rattling around at the bottom of a pot?
    http://science.time.com/2013/01/18/do-crabs-feel-pain-maybe-and-maybe-we-should-rethink-eating-them/

    And as you have been made aware, live baiting, and fighting an animal with a hook in its mouth for hours is no less cruel than eating semi-live seafood – probably more so because the process is typically longer in duration.

    The fact is that did not occur to you did it —instead you decided to morally posture and grandstand.

    Unfortunately you have to climb down now that a few facts have come your way.

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  42. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    @Engineer:

    this is selective, and possibly racialized, outrage

    We’re only discussing Japan’s record, perhaps comparing it to that of NZ. If you want to digress into the equally shocking record of other countries and cultures by all means do so. I’d probably agree with most of it, but considered raising it to be too far off-topic for this thread.

    The fact is a lot of the meat we eat in the West is from animals stuffed in small cages and crates. The Japanese eat far less meat than the average Westerner.

    And the Japanese eat far more seafood. And as far as I know, no one in the West eats animals that are still alive. That’s why I’m talking overall animal cruelty, not just to fish or mammals. And while you’re right that much of the meat we eat is from animals treated inhumanely, there are at least choices, and many Westerners care about the origin of the food they eat, and how the animal, or fish, was treated before it reached their plate. Compare that to the outraged reactions of Japanese to the whaling ban.

    Did you know that crabs and lobsters are boiled alive in the West, rattling around at the bottom of a pot?

    I know this used to be common practice. But the West’s growing concern with animal welfare means they’re more often than not humanely killed in a freezer either on board the boat (preferred because of the freshness), at the fishery factory or, occasionally, at the restaurant. The tanks of hapless captives waiting to be executed situated in the restaurant window seem to be confined to Asian restaurants, you may have noticed.

    Of course outside of commercial fishing I know this still happens more often than not. I used to share a house with a lovely couple whose only intolerable habit was that they’d go crabbing and then come home and toss the poor creatures, alive, into a pot of boiling water. However I educated them on the freezer method and would hope anyone else concerned for animal welfare would make a similar effort.

    In short, the West isn’t perfect but we’re at least aware and many people are trying to improve things. And our governments legislate against, and prosecute, animal cruelty. And that’s a hell of a lot better than the Japanese (and a bunch of others).

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  43. Engineer (73 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom, what a load of ignorant racist blather:

    We’re only discussing Japan’s record, perhaps comparing it to that of NZ…….And the Japanese eat far more seafood.

    FFS —there’s a huge difference in killing pigs (or even cattles and sheep for food). Pigs are at least as intelligent as dogs. We intuitively understand this difference. That is why most New Zealanders could not care less about skewering a kahawai for livebait, leaving it to struggle with a hook in its back for up to an hour to catch a bigger fish (equally as cruel as eating a fish alive —the cruelty is in how long does it take to die – makes no difference if it is eaten alive by a human or another fish).

    New Zealanders think it is great if a marlin has fought to the death with a hook in its mouth for up to 12 hours —-prolonged torture –and ffs, people of course have a choice whether or not to go big game fishing —it is not necessary for survival.

    However as cruel as the above are, they are still not as cruel as doing same to a pig or a sheep.

    Eating a tin of six sardines causes far less suffering, physical and emotional, than killing 6 pigs for food. You should know that.

    Further – killing one ‘free range’ whale for protein is far less cruel than killing 60 to 200 cows or sheep or pigs (factory farmed) to provide the same amount of protein —-whaling in terms of net animal suffering is far more humane.

    and many Westerners care about the origin of the food they eat, and how the animal, or fish, was treated before it reached their plate.

    ‘Many’ is a meaningless word. Most actually do not care. That is why the rate of egg and meat consumption from factory farmed animals is still so high. And anyway where is your evidence that Westerners care about these things anymore than Japanese or any other people? Have you asked Japanese about this?

    “The tanks of hapless captives waiting to be executed situated in the restaurant window seem to be confined to Asian restaurants, you may have noticed.

    What the heck has that to do with anything? So because Westerners ‘execute’ animals out of sight, the animal suffers less? And I suppose pigs and cows and horses in Western slaughterhouses are empowered and delighted to meet their fate eh? Unlike ‘hapless’ animals slaughtered by Asians.

    What an imbecilic, racist statement

    In short, the West isn’t perfect but we’re at least aware and many people are trying to improve things. And our governments legislate against, and prosecute, animal cruelty. And that’s a hell of a lot better than the Japanese (and a bunch of others).

    So Japan does not have animal protection laws? Of course the do. And how do you know Japanese do not care about animal suffering? In fact it is only the Eastern religions that have placed much emphasis on the suffereing of animals. Animal suffering figures features more highly in Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism etc, than it does in Christianity (which in fact is not concerned with animal suffering at all).

    So it is actually the Indians who have the best animal welfare in the world. Not white Westerners, who make such a noise about it, but are actually the world’s worst in this regard.

    Most big game hunters, big game fisherman, who kill animals for nothing other than a trophy and a photograph have been white Westerners.

    Compare that to the outraged reactions of Japanese to the whaling ban.

    No more outraged than New Zealanders would be if the Indian government banned them from eating beef.

    Your pathetic moronic rant is utterly devoid of facts and your racially based superciliousness is disgusting.

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