Jones against international students

March 8th, 2014 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

Auckland University is in danger of slipping from a “storehouse of knowledge to a foreign warehouse” because it is increasingly catering for international students from Asia at the potential expense of New Zealanders, says Labour MP .

Mr Jones said the focus on increasing fee-paying students from China, India and other Asian counties was turning universities “into institutions designed to educate international populations rather than ourselves”.

Mr Jones, a graduate of Harvard in the US, initially made the comments at a political debate at Auckland University on Thursday night. One of those at the debate contacted the Weekend Herald to say there were calls of “racist” after his comments.

Mr Jones said he had not heard the “racist” comment but somebody told him that it was called out.

“If someone did say that, that would bother me not one iota. I believe a university should be a storehouse of knowledge, not a foreign warehouse. Universities have to serve Kiwis first.”

He said he was not being racist and international students were important, but a debate was needed about the purpose of a university in New Zealand. There was a risk that fewer places would be available for New Zealanders because of the need to cater for international students.

“They (universities) tell us they don’t have enough dough so, disproportionately, they are racing into the crescent from India through to China and bringing in more and more international students. I don’t want to have a situation where there is no room for Kiwis at the intellectual inn.”

 The comments by Jones seem to based on ignorance of university funding, or he is auditioning to replace Winston as NZ First Leader.

There is a limit on domestic students because each domestic student is subsidised by the taxpayer.

International students pay full fees. In fact they pay slightly more than full fees. Universities make a profit on each international student. What this means is that the more international students you have, the more domestic students you can afford. It is not a choice of one vs the other. So the comments by Jones are woefully ignorant.

The Auckland University website shows international students make up about 13 per cent of its student population.

Hardly a huge proportion.

Minister Steven Joyce said of Mr Jones’ remark: “It’s a very strange comment to make if you’re an economic development spokesperson and you’re supposed to be about creating jobs.”

Mr Joyce said the international education sector was worth $2.5 billion to the economy and contributed 28,000 jobs.

Jones is normally pro-jobs. Disappointing.

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83 Responses to “Jones against international students”

  1. tvb (4,553 comments) says:

    This is a positioning statement from Jones who sees himself as old working class Labour which has been much neglected. This will irritate Cunliffe but there will be more to come.

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  2. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Jones has been to the rainbow room (Labour HO) and had the wheeze over his earlier right wing comments. He is obviously worried about his place at the trough . . . once a loser, always a loser!

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  3. Rightandleft (691 comments) says:

    It’s disappointing to see Jones taking this line. I had been impressed with his stand against the iwi approval bureaucracy in Auckland, but he is wrong on this one. I came to NZ as an international student and I know many others who did the same, earning advanced degrees, paying our full costs and more, and then staying in NZ permanently, contributing to the economy. International students are a good source of skilled migrants with NZ experience and they don’t cost the taxpayer anything. It’s a win-win.

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  4. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Providing international students do not take the places of Kiwi kids wanting to study I don’t have a problem with them.

    It is a form of industry and brings in money – BUT if it is at a cost to our own, and limits or reduces the chance of our children being accepted into study – no way – we have to invest in our future and can only do that by ‘growing’ our own qualified residents. Unfortunately I know for a fact that some tertiary providers will accept these paying students before domestic, as they can charge inflated fees.

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  5. Jack5 (5,274 comments) says:

    Set aside for a moment whether Jones is right or wrong about foreign tertiary students. Jones has identified another hot issue on which to capitalise. Lucky for National that Labour chose Cunliffe rather than Jones as leader.

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  6. duggledog (1,620 comments) says:

    This is good for Labour; ‘Bloody asians!’ ‘Bloody Maoris!’ (The bore in Puhoi) ‘Bloody foreigners! (making our locos instead of at Hillside)
    ‘Bloody Aussies!’ (Countdown)

    These are the messages that resonate with Waitakere Man. He doesn’t look at the why’s and the how’s.

    Might be a bit late though; and delivered by the wrong person. SJ and Damien O’Connor are the only Labour guys I have any time for. They be the only real opposition…

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  7. WineOh (636 comments) says:

    Anecdotally- I remember personally sitting in a lecture theatre at Massey Wellington campus for a management paper. There was easily 50%+ of the room were Asian students, of course no definitely way of knowing whether they were ‘imports’ or local NZ citizens of asian heritage. The group work sessions were an absolute shambles, and the tutors were getting increasingly frustrated as a large portion of the students could not participate because of a basic lack of English to be able to understand the content and communicate. God knows how they were able to get passes on the exams.

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  8. Mobile Michael (473 comments) says:

    Winston is below 5%. Jones is pitching at his voters. It might be worth it if we get rid of Winston forever.

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  9. budgieboy (110 comments) says:

    This doesn’t surprise me at all about Jones. He’s strikes me as a guy who shoots from the lip with little or no regard to the facts and while he seems to enjoy the reaction he gets he is, in my opinion, a blowhard who has never really coherently followed up with anything that he spouted on about. I can’t understand how anyone rates him or his performance(s) to be honest.

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  10. CharlieBrown (1,054 comments) says:

    I think it is a brilliant move on his part, he is certainly positioning himself to be the next prime minister if he keeps this up. He is endearing himself to NZ First voters and some of the other more ignorant people in NZ (lets face it 80% of NZ is ignorant).

    I don’t think he actually believes what he is saying, but like John Key who lies when he says the anti-smacking law is working, he is just playing the politician.

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  11. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    Jones is normally pro-jobs. Disappointing.

    Jones is pro-Jones.

    Big difference.

    If that happens to coincide with more jobs then that’s just lucky for us.

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  12. greenjacket (486 comments) says:

    So Jones is now Labour’s tertiary education spokesperson?
    .
    Or is it that there is a lack of any control from Cunlifffe?

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  13. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    “….and contributed 28,000 jobs…..”

    What does that mean?

    People employed mostly in education ? or also the plumber who unblocks the drain in an Asian students flat?

    Or does it also include the students themselves – who take part time jobs off kiwis – to help PAY THEIR WAY through uni? – if that’s the case, then Jones might be onto something!

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  14. Jack5 (5,274 comments) says:

    Charlie Brown posted at 9.27:

    …lets face it 80% of NZ is ignorant…

    Only 80%, Charlie?

    Wineoh (9.22) posted about lack of English-language skills by Asian students.

    At least one university had or has a special tutor bringing NZ students (as well as foreigners) up to English-language standard so they could write essays coherently.

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  15. Chthoniid (2,047 comments) says:

    There are many things that could be done to improve tertiary education in New Zealand. Arbitrarily restricting numbers of international students is not one of them.

    Also, most universities I’m aware of have their own limits for international students. It’s not about maximising revenue but balancing the several objectives of the institution.

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  16. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    @DPF

    International students pay full fees. In fact they pay slightly more than full fees. Universities make a profit on each international student. What this means is that the more international students you have, the more domestic students you can afford. It is not a choice of one vs the other.

    First, I have no problem with international students. However, in courses with limited places (e.g., medicine and suchlike) I wonder if “not a choice of one vs other” is so clear cut (I imagine that there are issues of infrastructure and things like number of training places in hospitals). Perhaps someone else knows more.

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  17. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ WineOh (379 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 9:22 am

    Yes, I can confirm that is correct. I have 9 international students, three of whom can speak excellent English however have absolutely know former knowledge on New Zealand’s history. I have had to spend time bringing them up to speed, at a cost to the other students. Three are doing well, did some former research and are aware and good communicators. The other three, despite stating their english skills were good on application forms etc, can barely speak a word … they are going to be a problem as their lack of understanding is already causing issues – I’m not sure what I am going to do with them, advice so far is to persevere – fine, but persevere with what – I don’t understand what they are saying, nor they, me.

    There is an issue here regarding honesty – should an educational facility accept money from these people when they know they cannot meet the expectations?

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  18. niggly (832 comments) says:

    So Jones doesn’t see his own irony in himself being an international (foreign) student at Harvard?

    Why is it ok for the top institutions of the US and UK for example, to have people from across the world studying with them, but not NZ?

    I think Jones would make a better Labour leader than Robertson and Cunliffe for example, but Prime Ministerial material he is definitely not (and not simply because of this issue. Could you imagine Jones as PM dealing with world leaders and the associated topics of world security and economics?). Nope, mind you couldn’t see Robertson and Cunliffe doing the same either without being seen as lightweights – they aren’t Prime Ministerial material either.

    Typical Labour, bashing Asians again!

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  19. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    80% is ignorant? Really – I guess it depends on your definition of ignorant.

    50% are certainly below the average IQ of 100 and naturally 50% are above.
    Which means that 50% are unlikely to be suitable for university education.

    Of the 50% above some just act ignorant’ and already ‘know it all’ so there is no need to teach them anything – in their minds.

    Of the rest, of which most of the posters here would be made up of, they are intelligent – but life experience gives them different ways of ‘seeing’ the world – just because someone sees the world different to how I do, doesn’t make them ignorant – or less intelligent. Difference is not a measure of ignorance.

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  20. WineOh (636 comments) says:

    @ Judith, what subject(s) do you teach in? Are they areas that NZ History has particular relevance?

    At Massey Wgtn I saw a significant skew of Asian students in the financial/accounting/management side of the school rather than language & arts, which I guess makes sense given there are two universal languages in the world (maths and music).

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  21. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    You have to see this issue in the wider context. The reason why many to most international students come here is not because our system is excellent, it’s because after they graduate they can get work and permanent residence here and then bring over their siblings and parents who proceed to live off the benefits and infrastructure that they have never contributed a cent to.

    If you live in a mud hut somewhere in Asia, NZ is a very very appealing place to come to.

    That is not the only factor in this issue, but it’s a very significant one which needs to be taken into account when assessing the rights and wrongs of the current design. And given Universities have been built from OUR taxes it’s only fair WE should get a say in how they are run. Looking at this issue only from the perspective of their own singular place in the whole chain of events is not sensible.

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  22. BeeJay (72 comments) says:

    Shane Jones – it’s easy to see what you’re up to! Keep your name and face in front of mind and in the media as much as possible, irrespective of the media or the message! We know what you’re up to and we wonder if your colleagues do? Great tactics though, shaft Cunliffe whenever and wherever you can. Build your own profile ahead of Labours failure at the election, and there you are, top dog and ready to take over. None of the other contenders are a patch on you! Cunning as a …dog?

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  23. iMP (2,455 comments) says:

    I was there, it was a single very loud very clear “racist” from the left hand side stalls immediately after Jones’ anti-Asian comment. Jones is lying if he says he didn’t hear it, everyone in the auditorium (all 600 of us) heard it clear as a whistle. Jones was anti foreigner but with an Asian emphasis.

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  24. Yogibear (375 comments) says:

    Reid – Many of our tertiary institutions survive because of the full-fee paying students.

    Without them the taxpayer contribution, or fees for kiwis would undoubtedly be higher. The closest our Universities get to their mythical money-tree that solves all their problems is foreign students.

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  25. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    The reason why many to most international students come here is not because our system is excellent, it’s because after they graduate they can get work and permanent residence here and then bring over their siblings and parents who proceed to live off the benefits and infrastructure that they have never contributed a cent to.

    What a load of crap.

    There is no automatic right of residence for foreign students.

    They might choose to apply for work and residence once they have returned home, but that is an entirely different matter.

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  26. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ WineOh (380 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 9:59 am

    No, they don’t have a particular historical emphasis as such, but as it involves social policy, it is necessary to have an understanding of the historical events that contributed to certain changes in policy. The paper I was referring to is an elective for business study students. They don’t have to take it, but I have formed the opinion, rightly or wrongly, that some international students take it thinking it will give them a quick catch up with the history – however the paper presumes they already have that knowledge. I think we might have to reword our synopsis of the paper.

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  27. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Yogibear (209 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 10:08 am

    I agree but should that be the way?

    Just what is the role of our universities, or rather what is the role that they have adopted – their actual role is prescribed in law, however doesn’t seem to be following that path anymore?

    Are they merely another ‘industry’ ?

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  28. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    There is no automatic right of residence for foreign students.

    I didn’t say there was wat. Can’t you read? Have a look at the stats of the foreign graduates.

    The closest our Universities get to their mythical money-tree that solves all their problems is foreign students.

    I’m not saying don’t have them Yogi I’m saying bear in mind what I said is the context of the issue and that needs to be assessed when considering the problem.

    Why is it that when someone says something about a facet of an issue, some people hallucinate that that facet then becomes the whole question and that every other facet pales into insignificance?

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  29. Zebulon (125 comments) says:

    I agree with him that we have to look after our own people first. While selling education to international students does bring in valuable profits, we need to ensure that this is not at the expense of our own students. One of the faults of the current government is it tends to leave things to the market too much and isn’t interested in placing New Zealanders first as a matter of principle. If Jones can overcome his reputation for laziness and the past scandal (I’m not sure about this) he could be an effective Labour leader.

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  30. beautox (409 comments) says:

    Storehouse of knowledge? What crap is this. I suppose he did only bullshit degrees like “Master of Public Administration” which is ironic because he’s more like “Clown of Public Administration”.

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  31. Simon (780 comments) says:

    Massive empire building currently underway at Akl uni. Massive and unaccountable . Its got fuck all to do with education.

    Jones probably knows something about the empire building.

    When you are called racist it means someone wants to close down the conversation.

    The warehouse analogy is very insightful. Internationally top universities are going online bricks and mortar are on the way out but not so at akl uni……

    Anyway I am sure that there are many interesting stories about Auckland Uni that will never make the NZ Herald.

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  32. Yogibear (375 comments) says:

    @ Judith – my own personal view is the modern university fulfills two roles. One of them being an “industry”

    They are, and should be, degree factories for undergrad. Churn ‘em through and spit ‘em out.

    Like it or not, “higher learning” in most areas is now minimum qualification, and the undergrad world is no longer the exclusive realm of our best and brightest.

    Post-grad is a different story, and even then, a good chunk of the students in post-grad are only there because the commercial realities are you don’t get looked at by an employer unless you have hons at least.

    Despite the howls of protest from the sector, Steven Joyce seems to have understood this distinction. The PBRF pushes the quality and exclusivity end (provided the Universities stop rorting it) and the Universities play the weight of numbers game at undergrad.

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  33. NoCash (262 comments) says:

    A quick googling shows that 17.9% of the students at Harvard were international students in 2013. Not sure the % back in the days when Jones was an international student there though.

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  34. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    Reid,

    I didn’t say there was [an automatic right of residence for foreign students] wat.

    Then you don’t have a case, do you.

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  35. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    Then you don’t have a case, do you.

    Er…

    Since my 10.01 wasn’t alleging there was “[an automatic right of residence for foreign students]” and since it has nothing to do with what I said, I’m not sure how you conclude that wat, but then again I’m not sure how you conclude most of the things you say so nothing new there.

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  36. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Your claim was that foreigners come here as students as a way to get work and residence visas.

    It was bollocks, wasn’t it.

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  37. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    Your claim was that foreigners come here as students as a way to get work and residence visas.

    Yes that was the claim wat but CLAIMING THAT IS NOT REPEAT NOT REPEAT NOT A CLAIM THAT THEY HAVE AN AUTOMATIC RIGHT TO SUCH.

    I thought it would be helpful if I shouted it since you seem to be quite obtuse in coming at the same extraordinarily elementary point three times now and three times failing to understand it.

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  38. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    @Reid
    You obviously have evidence that a significant proportion of international students “after they graduate they can get work and permanent residence here and then bring over their siblings and parents who proceed to live off the benefits and infrastructure that they have never contributed a cent to.” Why not just show us the evidence, and that will settle the matter.

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  39. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    http://dol.govt.nz/publications/research/settlement-outcomes-international-students/

    Most students (64 percent) intended to apply for a work permit once they had finished their studies.

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  40. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    Yes – but how many do apply and how many get accepted? That’s the important point.

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  41. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    Yes – but how many do apply and how many get accepted? That’s the important point.

    SGA, the data in that link supports my point to my own satisfaction.

    If you want to dive further into the data then go ahead, it doesn’t interest me enough to do it myself, and you can take or leave my point as you wish, I don’t care. But you asked, I provided, balls in your court now, as far as I’m concerned.

    And BTW, you’ll be talking to yourself because I’m not spending my Saturday analysing immigration data, if you want to do that then go ahead. Can I suggest you make an OIA to the Immigration Dept if you’re that interested?

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  42. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    Reid at 12:26 pm

    Yes – but how many do apply and how many get accepted? That’s the important point.
    SGA, the data in that link supports my point to my own satisfaction.

    In other words, you have no evidence that –
    “after they graduate they can get work and permanent residence”
    only that some say that –
    “after they graduate they would like to get work and permanent residence”.
    which is hardly the same thing.

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  43. dime (10,212 comments) says:

    Dime did a paper in 2002 I think.. When I moved home from Aussie. I was contemplating doing some post grad, so I signed up to do a business paper. Basically to find out if I could still be assed doing formal study.

    The class was at least 50% Asian and they couldn’t speak English.

    I don’t know if the uni is running a scam, whether these guys hand in assignments in another language or what. There is no way they were capable of churning out quality essays in English.

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  44. Paul G. Buchanan (302 comments) says:

    The problem is not the number of foreign students granted admission, but the lack of academic standards and English language comprehension abilities of many of them. That forces lecturers to dumb things down and promotes cheating (because those lacking background and language skills feel they must resort to such in order to keep up). The problem arises because there is no universal merit standard upon which foreign admission rests (such as the equivalent of a B average in high school and better than an average mark on language tests), and in many countries the vetting process for both is nonexistent (which allows applicants to falsify application credentials).

    Add to that the obsession with the ability of foreign students to pay full fees and a managerial drive to pass foreign sub-standard students in order to keep their full fee-paying bums in classroom seats for as long as possible (in some cases students can take 5-6 years to complete an undergraduate degree), and you have the recipe for a degrading of the quality of degrees. This has been reflected in the ongoing downward slide of NZ universities in international rankings (which in significant part are reputational in nature but not confined to the reputational quality of academic staff research).

    The system is not fair to the foreigners who cannot compete on a level playing field and to the locals who find their educational experience cheapened by the influx of underprepared students who are then ushered through (rather than removed from) the system in order to maximize the rents accruing from them.

    I experienced all of this first hand at the university mentioned by Jones.

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  45. OctagonGrappler (84 comments) says:

    I need someone to explain to me why it costs so much to educate someone at university as I am not that clued up on how it works?

    However to quote Peter Schiff the American Economist..He said when he went to uni he funded his tuition fees by working as a waiter during the holidays. He said it covered his course fees and living costs. Today he said that is impossible! Who could fund that working as a waiter.Who has 40k to pay for a years tution? Not many! So the government steps in as says “no worries” we will give you the money in the form of a loan to pay for it.

    Schiff made the point that why does it cost more to educate someone now than it did 10 years ago when it shouldn’t? Why do HD TV screens,Tablets and cell phones keep dropping in price yet tuition fees keep rising.

    It’s because of the govt loans that enables universities to charge what they want and become as over bloated as they want!

    Why does it cost say in NZ 30k for a student with Govt Top up to sit in a lecture theater and right APA 6 essays? Most Uni work gets done online with power point notes and self guided learning.

    Why can’t we afford to educate people as to take more oversees students to pay for it? And why is that the cost to educate somebody? Maybe he is correct that the loans like cheap credit is like a housing Boom? More and more people are going into tertiary education, So why can’t these academic minds find a way to be more cost effective?

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  46. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    My personal opinion regarding the influx of Asian students is that their parents recognise the negative issues of remaining in their country of origin. They know their chances are greatly enhanced if they can live elsewhere due to many social issues. Some of the students are not even interested in what they are studying, it is merely a means to assimilate within another viable country.

    I have to agree with Reid on this one. Some are here solely to establish themselves in this country, many remain. Our universities, ashamed as I am to say this, are not the worlds best. They are by no means the worst, but if these people were here to get world class certification, then they would be going to the worlds top universities and receive a qualification that earns them much ‘kudos’. Have the name Harvard on any degree, and you’re set for life!

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  47. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    wat dabney (3,335 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 11:24 am

    Reid,

    Your claim was that foreigners come here as students as a way to get work and residence visas.

    It was bollocks, wasn’t it.

    I’m not sure what the excitement is about. I thought Reid’s point was perfectly clear. Study is a pathway to residence and Immigration New Zealand specifically have a category to facilitate that called “Study to Work”. Once you graduate you are entitled to several years work visas without having to demonstrate a lack of New Zealanders able to take up the work you may have been offered (though the work must be relevant to your study). If during that time you obtain “skilled employment” you can apply for residence.

    Once you obtain residence then you have the opportunity to sponsor your parents for residence. National have tightened some of this, but it’s still not particularly hard to meet the requirements under the parent category (income of 65,000). You sponsor your parents for five years but ultimately given their age they are likely to draw a lot of money from the system while not having worked here during their lives to contribute. This to some extent negates the benefit of having their children with “skilled employment” come to New Zealand.

    I never saw Reid say that this whole process was automatic, the point appeared to be that it was a motivating factor that attracts people to study here. I think it’s a fair issue to raise in terms of balancing the benefits of immigration against the costs. Ultimately policy should be designed to benefit the people that are already here and in some cases it’s questionable whether that is ultimately being achieved.

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  48. Paulus (2,707 comments) says:

    Judith

    I agree with your tenor, but can you tell your mate David Cunliffe that Harvard means Harvard, =- (started by John Harvard from Liverpool)

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  49. OctagonGrappler (84 comments) says:

    Many Asian Families come to NZ for social reasons. In Asia you are seen as a social reject if you have no degree. Makes me wonder in a world that promotes racial harmony and equality..There is still social stigma attached to job status and education.

    I don’t won’t people in NZ that are like that, But hey that’s me and the majority of kiwis seem happy with this change.

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  50. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ OctagonGrappler (78 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 12:58 pm

    My PhD papers cost me more than $120 per week over three years, just in fees, not to mention other costs involved.

    A basic undergrad degree shouldn’t be anymore than about $15,000, however it depends on the type and the requirements. It is the other costs that inflate the loans – course related materials, and especially living costs. With those added, a simple undergrad degree can get up to $40,000 or more.

    A master’s will add another $30,000 to that probably – so by time a student gets a degree that is really of substance, they have a debt of near $70,000.

    A PhD – probably over the $100,000 mark. Whilst the PhD should result in a high income, and therefore the 5% means it is paid of reasonably quickly, for an undergrad, the income is much less (their qualification really only having substance once work experience is added). The lesser the income the longer it takes to pay back. They are caught in the debt trap, before they’ve even began to live.

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  51. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    Judith at 1:11 pm

    I have to agree with Reid on this one. Some are here solely to establish themselves in this country, many remain.

    Do they, Judith? My limited experience with people who’ve wanted to stay after they graduated has been the opposite – most have had to go. That’s why I’m curious about the evidence for Reid’s claims.

    That said, I’d also hope that our system was such that those who’d acquired professions and skills that were needed here did have a pathway to stay.

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  52. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Paulus (2,232 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    Cunliffe is no mate of mine – I have never supported him or his tactics. Personally I believe Labour should have kept Shearer, yes, he wouldn’t have won this coming election, but in three years time, I think he would have matured and be a force to reckon with.

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  53. OctagonGrappler (84 comments) says:

    Thanks Judith

    I was not aware of those extra costs..It seems we are promoting a cycle of debt being pushed by Governments and Banks.

    What strikes me is when somebody mentions fractional reserve banking on kiwiblog it gets the thumbs down. So it seems most are happy with the debt trap.

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  54. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ SGA (421 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    Well from my experience, there seems to be a disproportionate amount of female international students that just happen to ‘fall in love’ whilst here, and never leave!

    Having said that, there are some that return, no by no means did I mean to imply that all stay here.

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  55. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    Judith at 1:28 pm

    Well from my experience, there seems to be a disproportionate amount of female international students that just happen to ‘fall in love’ whilst here, and never leave!

    tsk, tsk, so suspicious. Perhaps NZ males are just good catches compared with what’s on offer elsewhere :-)

    I didn’t think you meant to imply that all stay here, only that the process by which you can hasn’t seemed as “open door” as some comments here have implied.

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  56. hj (7,156 comments) says:

    The government apparatus responsible for filtering in human capital appears to be failing.
    Many immigrants on acceptance into the country are finding they can not readily apply their
    skills and need to gain registration or re-qualification to local standards. It results in the
    infamous truth of migrant nurses, teachers and engineers driving taxis or stacking
    supermarket shelves (Migrants skills go begging 2005). Secondly, the New Zealand
    Immigration Service’s (2003) own research opens the possibility of systemic abuse. The
    Department surveyed immigrants who were admitted into the country on the basis of job
    offers from local employers. A total of 1020 of these employers were contacted, but of the
    480 who responded, 93 had not even heard of the immigrants. The Department cautions
    against interpreting this as applicants lying on their applications, as it may be that there were
    difficulties contacting the appropriate employer representative; and frequently, immigrants
    anglo-cise their names on arrival, making it difficult to identify them. Nevertheless, the
    figures must be cause for concern. The same survey revealed that only 60% were still
    working in the job 5-17 months later. Asian immigrants were of particular concern with most
    leaving their jobs within 12 months of starting. Consistent with other findings that reveal
    differences in settling in, migrants from Europe, South Africa and North America were more
    likely to be in the job for longer than migrants from any other region. In contrast more
    migrants from Asia stayed for less than 12 months than stayed for more than 12 months.

    Conversation with my own Asian students reveals that many gained permanent residency on
    the basis of job offers from employers who had also migrated to New Zealand. It was
    revealed it was common practice for these employers to pay Asian immigrants a smaller wage
    than local workers in return for assistance in the immigration process. Although their jobs
    might be as simple as being a shop-assistant, the employer would claim they needed to import
    labour to fill the job. On gaining residency, the students quickly left the job and gained
    employment in basic jobs like gas-pump attendant, a reflection on how the market valued
    their human capital. Although migrants represent a small portion of the nation’s employers,
    the NZIS survey (2003:51) found immigrants constituted 57% of the employers with less than
    25 employees, who made job offers to immigrants. It appears the employers are using the
    immigration process to reduce their wage bill, and in the process, distort the value of the
    human capital on application.

    DISCUSSION PAPER

    NEW ZEALAND IMMIGRATION POLICY

    Dr Greg Clydesdale (PhD)

    Senior Lecturer
    Department of Management and International Business
    Massey University – Albany

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  57. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ OctagonGrappler (80 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 1:26 pm

    Do not worry about the thumbs down on here – it is a pathetic system – if a person has something to add, or disagree with, then they should present their argument. Those that vote do so, because in my opinion, they don’t have the smarts to present their case! ;-)

    My personal opinion, is that the ‘university’ is in a sad state of affairs. No longer is the production of knowledge at the forefront of their existence – they are manipulated and controlled, no longer by the quest for higher understanding, but instead by commercial interests. The professor has been replaced by the manager – a person highly skilled in administration, but who knows little about the producing knowledge – they are only interested in through put numbers, not quality.

    ‘The Strategy’ – a document prepared as a guideline for education facilities and the university demonstrates this nicely. It recommends such things as a focus on ‘Environmental studies’. I understand the importance of that, but if we allow politics to decide and determine what knowledge we possess, then we lose the value of invention and discovery, which could ultimately benefit society as well.

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  58. OctagonGrappler (84 comments) says:

    HJ

    Dr Clydesdale was hounded out of Massey Uni by Paul Spoonley!

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  59. HB (331 comments) says:

    Judith: so you are saying a ESOL student just has to say they can communicate in English to get into the course? There is no test they have to pass first?

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  60. OctagonGrappler (84 comments) says:

    Judith

    I am a blue collar guy with a blue collar job, But I am finding that it’s getting to a point where guys like me that are not suited to uni are being forced into going because of social status and financial issues.

    I find that people are judging others by there job and education..That is fine if you are applying for a job! But it is creeping into society on a social level and as a 5th generation kiwi that does scare me a little.

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  61. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ HB (242 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 1:42 pm

    I actually can’t answer that. I don’t know if they test them or not. I have nothing to do with enrollment. If they do test them, then there is a loophole in the system somewhere because the practicalities show that many just cannot communicate at a level that is sufficient.

    Some of it isn’t just language though – as I pointed out – depending on the paper it can be a lack of general knowledge that holds things up.

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  62. hj (7,156 comments) says:

    Demographer Bob Birrell takes a wide look at melbourne (and Sydney)

    ”While the other boom states have been driven by mining exports, Victoria’s boom has been driven by high immigration,” Birrell says. ”This created a buoyant economy, thanks to a rapidly-growing people servicing sector and migrant servicing sector.”
    In other words, Melbourne is growing for the sake of growing, racing towards a population of 5 million, using other people’s money. Just how big is that great sucking force from the south? Enormous. In the 2008-09 financial year, Victoria imported $70.2 billion in goods and services. It produced only $34.5 billion in exports, less than half its imports, a deficit of $35.7 billion.
    Western Australia, by contrast, had exports of $94 billion in 2008-09 and imports of $42.8 billion, a mammoth $51.2 billion surplus. The equivalent of 70 per cent of that surplus ended up in Victoria as deficit spending. No wonder West Australians are in a state of outrage.
    ”Melbourne now requires increased financial assistance . . . to pay for its city building to keep up with all this population growth,” Birrell says. ”Victoria’s biggest export industry, by far, is education.
    But the boom in the overseas student industry is not going to last for long because of the federal government’s crackdown on the vocational training industry.”
    Vocational training had become a large-scale rort, a backdoor immigration program. ”We [Victoria] were growing by 40,000 people a year a few years ago, but by 90,000 a year during the Rudd government years because of its huge increase in the overseas migration program,” Birrell says. ”The education industry alone drove nearly half this population growth. Because Victoria has virtually no minerals industry, its situation is parlous.”
    In 2008-09, Victoria generated $5.4 billion in exports via the education sector, by far its biggest export earner. NSW generated even more in education exports, $6.3 billion, but this is only half the state’s biggest export sector, coal, which generated $12.8 billion. Sydney is also a regional financial hub in Asia.
    Having drawn a picture of Melbourne’s bloated needs, fairness demands the lens be widened to include Sydney. The wider picture is not pretty. The great sucking force is not just coming from Melbourne.
    In 2008-09, NSW generated $64.9 billion in exports and $102.5 billion in imports, a deficit of $37.6 billion, slightly larger than Victoria’s deficit. However, its dependence on imports was far lower than Victoria’s, where imports were a mammoth 108 per cent higher than exports.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/the-yarra-monster-is-killing-us-20100822-13apt.html#ixzz2vKNHpL00

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  63. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ OctagonGrappler (82 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 1:43 pm

    Hey, I didn’t go to uni until I was 34, when suddenly I discovered that my skills meant nothing without the right pieces of paper supporting them. I got a degree, and then worked for another 12 years, before returning to do post-grad.

    My decision to do that was because I wanted to do research – I was sick of working at the ‘coal face’.

    The days have gone when people are judged on their skills alone – unless you have a very rich family, you are stuck having to fight for a position in a diminishing market, which means unless you know the right people, what you offer has to be better than the next person.

    My grandfather always told me, ‘ a piece of paper with the right signature on it’ will be what guides your life. He is right – whether its a $20 note or a certificate.

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  64. hj (7,156 comments) says:

    OctagonGrappler (82 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 1:39 pm

    HJ

    Dr Clydesdale was hounded out of Massey Uni by Paul Spoonley!

    The same Paul Spoonley who coined the special (Marxist) definition of racism for Margaret Mutu.

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  65. OctagonGrappler (84 comments) says:

    Judith

    I am 37 but scared I won’t be able to afford a house or have a family..I am thinking of going to uni next year but the financial costs with housing etc may actually make it financially a burden. Plus the emotional stress of being an adult student not earning and seeing house prices double during my studies will be tough to stomach.

    If I was 20 i have time to catch up but it has taken me years to develop. I am lucky i have well of parents but there will still be a social price to pay. Oh wow what to do..Your comments are helpfull and it’s good that you are not taking me apart:)

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  66. Engineer (75 comments) says:

    Dumbest comment I have ever read on any blog (from Reid)

    “If you live in a mud hut somewhere in Asia, NZ is a very very appealing place to come to.”

    A lot of these students come and do degrees in engineering or commerce (arts degrees are considered a waste of time in Asia).

    Engineering costs about $30000 a year – coupled with the high NZ exchange rate these past few years, it should be obvious to all but an imbecile that these students are the ‘mud hut’ type.

    I’ve been involved in engineering education —the internationals by far have better outcomes than local students.

    The engineering Masters/PhD programmes at Auckland Uni are about 90% Chinese or Indian. Although how many of these are local vs international I’m not sure.

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  67. Engineer (75 comments) says:

    Does the presence of international students increase opportunities and places for NZ students or decrease them?

    I would guess the former, with the influx of hard cash funds more facilities that provides greater opportunities for locals.

    However I could be wrong —anyone know of any studies out there on this?

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  68. Engineer (75 comments) says:

    Another brain-dead comment.

    …..but if these people were here to get world class certification, then they would be going to the worlds top universities and receive a qualification that earns them much ‘kudos’. Have the name Harvard on any degree, and you’re set for life!

    Judith, do you really teach in the tertiary sector? If you do then we have some real worries.

    Do you think these ‘people’ would not rather get educated in the US or the UK before New Zealand – if they could afford it.

    And for heaven’s sake, how many can get into Harvard?

    The reason they are here is to get a relatively good Western education – but cannot afford the US, UK, or even Australia.

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  69. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Most students (64 percent) intended to apply for a work permit once they had finished their studies.

    “the data in that link supports my point to my own satisfaction.”

    It doesn’t support your point in the slightest; which was that foreigners come to study in NZ as a back-door means of acquiring permission to move here permanently.

    There is no such back-door.

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  70. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    Dumbest comment I have ever read on any blog (from Reid)

    Dumbest response I’ve seen lately to my 10.01 (from Engineer).

    This is because, Engineer, you proceeded to comment on the courses taken by foreign students, which had nothing to do with the point made in my 10.01, which was about the numbers who graduate then apply to live here.

    Normally when you critique something, it’s customary to get within a mile or so of the actual point being made, lest people think you’re a moron, like wat. You don’t want to be like wat, do you?

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  71. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    There is no such back-door.

    Judith who works at a university disagrees with you wat and agrees with me. hj published an extract from a discussion paper from a Dr Clydesdale who also works at a university which also backs up my point. Weihana also points out the point I was making was perfectly clear and there was therefore no need for the tangential excursions such as you and Engineer attempted. Give it up wat, you’re on a hiding to nothing. You’ve made a complete fool of yourself over this.

    I realise that’s just another day on the blog for you, but even if you are a fool, there’s no point in proving it again and again and again.

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  72. prosper (172 comments) says:

    It is pleasing that Shane has brought this up. There are a significant number of foreign students from the eastern suburbs who complete 3 or 4 years secondary schooling and enter university. Their parents do not reside in NZ. They are therefore subsidised by the tax payer. Another group do not speak English yet they pass the exams as they are able to hire somebody else to sit them.There are specific sought after courses engineering information technology for example. some years not one nz born citizen can enter the course usually because their maths scores are not quite high enough. The dean appears to be unaware of the situation yet the lecturers no full well.

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  73. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Engineer (60 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 3:17 pm

    I am sure finances have something to do with it in some cases, but the fact remains, they cannot get into the preferable universities because they do not have the necessary ability, and because most of the countries in which those top universities are situated have policies that make it very difficult to remain as a resident.

    New Zealand appears to have only one criteria for them – can you pay the bill.

    Regarding your comment about the Art’s – if that is the case, then why are there numbers of international students that are taking papers in the Art’s? Your statements are not supported by the factual evidence.

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  74. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    Reid,

    You have been found out making a stupid, false claim that ‘many to most’ foreign students choose to study in NZ as a crafty, automatic means of getting permission to live here permanently.

    It’s utter crap, son.

    The system simply doesn’t work that way.

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  75. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ OctagonGrappler (83 comments) says:
    March 8th, 2014 at 1:57 pm

    It is not easy, but I encourage you to do it. Initially, within the first month you will probably wonder what the hell you are doing – but most mature students, once they have settled in find the experience really empowering. They have the added advantage of having lived and worked and so have a power of experience to support their new knowledge.

    In gaining a degree later in life, the rules regarding work are a little different. Qualified mature students (providing they are not over 50) are often the preferred choice, as they have the ‘theory’ and the practical combined – tend to be more mature and responsible. The financial restrictions are a worry – but in today’s environment, house ownership is becoming an unreachable dream for many.

    You have to do what is right for you and your situation – I would encourage you to give it go from what you have said – if need be, do it part-time if the burden is too great. Good luck.

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  76. NoCash (262 comments) says:

    @prosper – if they’re foreign students, they’re paying full fees to study and not subsidised by us. If they’re either NZ residents or citizens, then they’re not foreign.

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  77. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    Judith at 4:16 pm

    Regarding your comment about the Art’s – if that is the case, then why are there numbers of international students that are taking papers in the Art’s? Your statements are not supported by the factual evidence.

    Really? I’d always thought the vast majority of international students went more the engineering, medical sciences, and commerce route. What are they majoring in – english, history, pol studs,…? Just curious.

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  78. corrigenda (142 comments) says:

    Bit rich doncha think. Jones was himself a “foreign student” at Harvard. Maybe that is where he learned to try and butter his bread on both sides whilst watching porn movies at the tax payers expense!!!

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  79. wat dabney (3,840 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Enough with the back-tracking. Everyone can see what you wrote.

    Your claim was that people come here as students so they can then remain here.

    It’s utter crap, son.

    The system simply doesn’t work that way.

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  80. prosper (172 comments) says:

    No Cash. You are correct they are residents not citizens and their parents do not reside here therefore they have paid little if any tax Yet enjoy subsidised fees at your expense assuming you are paying tax.

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  81. OctagonGrappler (84 comments) says:

    Judith

    It’s the home ownership thing that is stopping me…I want to own a home and let it double in price every 7 years and use it to leverage to buy more like everyone else. Those home owners don’t know how lucky they are having a system that keeps house prices up.

    Also I worried I may not earn enough to attract a partner as well. Still thanks for your really informed words:)

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  82. NoCash (262 comments) says:

    prosper – I can only wish the students well and one day will become productive members of NZ. As for their parents being overseas and not paying tax, I guess that also means they aren’t on the dole neither.

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  83. wreck1080 (3,999 comments) says:

    13% not a large proportion?

    What is the trend?

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