Lawyer needs lawyer

March 3rd, 2014 at 12:00 pm by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

A top female defence lawyer is on leave after allegedly groping a junior male colleague at a work Christmas party.

The senior barrister’s behaviour is said to have stunned colleagues at the function late last year.

Several sources said the woman grabbed the crotch area of at least one male colleague at the function.

She is then alleged to have made explicit sexual remarks to the group on a microphone.

The woman, who has defended several high profile clients, has been on leave for the past few weeks.

Sounds like she needs a good lawyer!

I would observe that if a male lawyer grabbed the crotch area of a female colleague (without consent) it might not be so much an employment issue, as criminal charges for indecent assault. But regardless, good to see the law firm taking it seriously.

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105 Responses to “Lawyer needs lawyer”

  1. Colville (2,085 comments) says:

    So who dropped an E in her chardonay? :-)

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  2. secondcumming (90 comments) says:

    It certainly would never have happened in my day – unfortunately.

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  3. Longknives (4,471 comments) says:

    Speaking of dodgy lawyers (is there any other kind?)-
    What happened with crazy Davina Murray and her application to have her conviction quashed? Did the reference from Tariana Turia get her off?

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  4. James Stephenson (2,040 comments) says:

    The woman, who has defended several high profile clients,

    Let the guessing games begin!

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  5. F E Smith (3,302 comments) says:

    It has taken this long for the MSM to catch up with this? This is old news!

    Actually, I cannot even find her listed on the Registry at the moment, but I suspect she currently is not a barrister but is instead a solicitor (although I could be wrong on that).

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  6. Judith (7,688 comments) says:

    I agree with Colville clearly she was not ‘operating’ sober.

    We always had a rule, what happens at the Xmas party is never mentioned again.

    There would be a hell of a lot of top business men and male politicians on the dole if they were all sacked every time they groped a colleagues butt…

    Obviously her behaviour was unacceptable and apologies should be forthcoming, but I can think of practising lawyers who have done much worse…

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  7. seanmaitland (455 comments) says:

    Thats the big problem with work social events and free alcohol. Its best to have a rule to never have more than 2 drinks around workmates. Its not worth permanently jeopardising your career by doing something stupid once you’re drunk.

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  8. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    James: It will be all around the legal traps by this afternoon…senior FEMALE criminal defence barristers are a fairly rare breed in Auckland…and at least one of them is a dyke, so that’s her out…

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  9. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    FES: d.garrett@xtra.co.nz ah there’s “Judith” STABBING away on that down button…pathetic really..

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  10. Judith (7,688 comments) says:

    @ DG

    God you are obsessed, NO I hadn’t down voted you, and again to prove it, I shall now do so. You need some help Garrett – you really are pathetic.

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  11. Nigel Kearney (864 comments) says:

    Men and women are not the same, no matter how much some people may wish they were. It is absolutely correct that this sort of thing is treated differently than it would be if the sexes were reversed. The best outcome for the ‘junior male colleague’ would be for the whole thing to just go away and be forgotten.

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  12. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    Nigel: Well said…Not that I agree with sexual harrassment of anyone, regardless of the sex….but really, some pissed woman grabbing at your – presumably clothed – crotch, and it’s run off to the boss time? The sort of thing that would have been laughed off 20 years ago…

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  13. F E Smith (3,302 comments) says:

    good to see the law firm taking it seriously.

    Barristers are self-employed (unless they are very junior, in which they can be employed by a senior barrister).  We inhabit Chambers, not law firms, so it will be a different process if it is indeed a barrister.

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  14. kowtow (7,653 comments) says:

    Crotch grabbing ,the guy should harden up.

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  15. GPT1 (2,091 comments) says:

    As FES says this is old news, only surprise is that the process is STILL going.
    Davina Murray was sentenced sensibly, can’t remember what she got but certainly wasn’t a discharge without conviction.

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  16. alex Masterley (1,491 comments) says:

    DG,

    The problem may be that the poor lad may be gay himself and so the “advance” may have been unacceptable to him. Hence the bleat.

    FES.

    If the lawyer in question is not on the register then she has no practicing certificate. It matters not if you are a barrister or solicitor. The registry makes no distinction.

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  17. Harriet (4,532 comments) says:

    Now we have lawyers advocating for low standards of behaviour. Groping should either be acceptable or unacceptable.

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  18. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    You’d have thought Mai would have realised that a wowser like Sir Geoffrey didn’t want his junk fondled.

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  19. RRM (9,478 comments) says:

    Cougared! :-)

    RRM would consider letting aging drunk top lawyers grope him – for cash.

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  20. corrigenda (142 comments) says:

    I worked with a guy once who wanted to make a complaint about sexual harassment. He complained he wasn’t getting any!!!! Talk about a storm in a teacup, or rather a wine glass! She groped him, so what? Her main problem is she can’t hold her booze, so she shouldn’t drink.

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  21. Pete George (22,866 comments) says:

    Yep Harriet, it’s either an offence or it”s not, regardless of what gender/s were involved and regardless of the profession of those involved.

    And that some people may not care about being groped by a drunk doesn’t make it acceptable for everyone.

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  22. RRM (9,478 comments) says:

    Ugly girls need love too… they just gotta pay.

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  23. Akaroa (544 comments) says:

    Well, I don’t know what all the fuss is about!.

    What happens at corporate Christmas Parties stays at corporate Christmas parties in my experience.

    You know, we – Society in general I mean – are getting so far up ourselves it ain’t funny. This incident – if you can solemnise it by calling it an “incident” – is so very symptomatic of the erosion of what used to be good ol’ common or garden knockabout normal workplace or wider society irreverance.

    Anyone physically injured? No! Anyone out of pocket unfairly? No! Then what’s the problem?

    My message to people that hyper-ventilate over harmless silliness like this incident is, “Grow up, stop taking yourself and life so seriously, there’s plenty of room in life for nonsense and clowning.

    (You only have to take a look at our Parliament on an average day to see that!!)

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  24. Roflcopter (427 comments) says:

    kowtow (6,429 comments) says:
    March 3rd, 2014 at 12:31 pm

    Crotch grabbing ,the guy should harden up.

    He probably did.

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  25. kowtow (7,653 comments) says:

    “I’ve been graped” the junior complained .

    “Surely you mean groped ?”

    “No” he said ,”there was a bunch of them.”

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  26. Judith (7,688 comments) says:

    @ PG

    Technically it is an offence, but if everyone was charged who had groped another, I don’t think our Courts could handle it. There comes a time when common sense needs to prevail. As a female I was taught to be prepared for such things, especially to know the difference between an ‘assault’ and the actions of an idiot. I was also taught to ignore (but keep a cautionary memory) of ‘dirty ol’ men who when under the influence think they are something they are not.

    When I was a young junior my boss used to pat my bottom on a regular basis – I wouldn’t have the qualifications and experience today if I had done anything about it … finding employment again after snitching on the boss does not endear you to potential employers. The idea is to know the difference between a serious encounter and an over-inflated alcohol enhanced ego.

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  27. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    davidp: I dont know if you are being facetious, but at one time rumour had it that old Professor Sir Geoffrey wasn’t quite the unworldly stuffed shirt he appeared…

    My favaourite joke about him runs something like this:

    In their respective youths, Phil Goff used to smoke a bit of dope, and Mike Moore got into a few scraps at the freezing works…and Geoffrey Palmer once stayed out till 9.30 at night without telling his mother…

    Judith: Good Lord! What a sensible comment…all is forgiven…

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  28. Pete George (22,866 comments) says:

    Judith – sure, there’s trivial things that don’t justify anything other than personal or in-house action, but that’s up to the judgement of those involved.

    But in this case we don’t know the details, to what degree and how offensive the alleged actions might have been. For it to still be an issue now suggests someone saw it as more than a bit of a harmless grope.

    That it was within a professional or work group and that it was at a Christmas event is largely irrelevant.

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  29. burt (7,840 comments) says:

    Somebody give that woman a DVice gift voucher !

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  30. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    But in this case we don’t know the details, to what degree and how offensive the alleged actions might have been. For it to still be an issue now suggests someone saw it as more than a bit of a harmless grope.

    How would you differentiate between a harmless grope and a harmful one, Pete?

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  31. RRM (9,478 comments) says:

    I can’t believe rape culture hasn’t been mentioned… ;-)

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  32. flipper (3,590 comments) says:

    David Garrett (4,797 comments) says:

    March 3rd, 2014 at 1:01 pm

    davidp: I dont know if you are being facetious, but at one time rumour had it that old Professor Sir Geoffrey wasn’t quite the unworldly stuffed shirt he appeared…
    ******

    And let us not forget the porno Judge….and/or the female Barrister, later QC, later Judge. :-)

    I suppose that just shows that taking silk and elevation to the bench does not filter out human instincts. :-)

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  33. rouppe (918 comments) says:

    I’m petty sure it is indecent assault regardless of whether a male gropes a female, or a female gropes a male.

    The major difference is that, usually, the male ‘victim’ doesn’t complain.

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  34. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    flipper: The only possible player I know in that group is the former Fisher J….my view has always been that he was “got” for a very minor transgression because Helen and the sisterhood didn’t like him…

    PG: God life must be a serious business Chez George… You and Sir Geoffrey would make a good pair…but not out on the piss!

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  35. alex Masterley (1,491 comments) says:

    DG,

    I gather that “surfing” was taking place during a trial, when his honour should have been devoting his attention to counsels submissions or the witness giving evidence or something.

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  36. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    David G>I dont know if you are being facetious, but at one time rumour had it that old Professor Sir Geoffrey wasn’t quite the unworldly stuffed shirt he appeared…

    Sir Geoffrey and I are distant cousins, both being descended from a family of settlers who arrived in Nelson in 1841 or 1842. Every family has its black sheep. Mine was the Prime Minister for a while.

    With a bit of luck, the link below documents Palmer’s family appearing in court on two charges in one day: keeping a disorderly house, and using threatening and abusive language. William White is my great great grandfather, Mrs Palmer is his sister. Note that the Palmers owned a pub, whereas Sir Geoffrey wants to close pubs.

    http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NENZC18631217.2.6&srpos=1&e=——-10–1—-0MAGISTRATES%27+COURT%2c+WAIMEAZz-WEST%2e+–

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  37. Pete George (22,866 comments) says:

    How would you differentiate between a harmless grope and a harmful one, Pete?

    If the person who is groped is offended.

    God life must be a serious business Chez George… You and Sir Geoffrey would make a good pair…but not out on the piss

    Do you think anything done while out on the piss is acceptable?

    I’ve done a fair bit of having fun when I’ve been pissed including harmless groping, it’s been mutual and consenting.

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  38. Graeme Edgeler (3,268 comments) says:

    This sort of thing is why I had concerns with indecent assault being a strike offence.

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  39. metcalph (1,384 comments) says:

    I gather that “surfing” was taking place during a trial, when his honour should have been devoting his attention to counsels submissions or the witness giving evidence or something

    Hardly or that would have been grounds for removal from the bench. The porn watching took place after hours.

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  40. Chuck Bird (4,686 comments) says:

    “Crotch grabbing ,the guy should harden up.”

    Not likely if she is bloody ugly.

    Has anyone got her name or is it suppressed.

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  41. Elaycee (4,305 comments) says:

    @alex Masterley / @David Garrett: I’m not au fait with the case in question, but perhaps His Honour could have been justified for his ‘surfing’ activities if a witness had made reference to something such as a ‘Brazilian’ in their testimony and, being unfamiliar with the term, His Honour simply Googled it – only to find the site that popped up was not exactly describing Rio de Janeiro.

    Just saying….. :P

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  42. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    PG: How did you know s/he consented Pete? Or are/were you such a stud muffin that they always initiated it?

    Alex: You may well be right, but that differs from my vague memory of the reporting of it at the time… I thought the surfing was done in chambers, and some vindictive bint did a search on the interent history of his machine…But don’t you feel for Judges, having to sit through literally hours of poorly prepared submissions, often of little relevance?

    Up in Tonga there are only about 6 properly qualified lawyers in private practice..and about 20 “lawyers” who have quals ranging from some papers at some law school somewhere to a Dip Law from the Uni of the South Pacific…Some of the subs the Judges have to sit through up there are quite incredible…movies have been cited as precedents!!

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  43. Graeme Edgeler (3,268 comments) says:

    Has anyone got her name or is it suppressed.

    There isn’t a criminal charge, as yet, so name suppression seems unlikely. lawsuit-induced self-censorship is probably to blame.

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  44. burt (7,840 comments) says:

    Graeme Edgeler

    There isn’t a criminal charge, as yet, and she is not an All Black or an entertainer so name suppression seems unlikely.

    There – added the key justice parameter for you ……

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  45. F E Smith (3,302 comments) says:

    This sort of thing is why I had concerns with indecent assault being a strike offence.

    As did I.  I still think it should not have been on the list.

     DG,

    But don’t you feel for Judges, having to sit through literally hours of poorly prepared submissions, often of little relevance?

    A top reason not to put one’s name in the ring!

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  46. Elaycee (4,305 comments) says:

    Oops – bad terminology at 1.30pm. 8O

    Should have read: “…but perhaps His Honour could have been excused for his ‘surfing’ activities if a witness had made reference to something such as…. ”

    I’ll think I’ll go and get a coffee…

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  47. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    FES and GE: I realise this is off topic, but a Northland barrister is on record as saying he thinks ONLY sexual offences should be strike offences..He says:

    “If you’re a sexual predator and you’re on your third [strike] then clearly it hasn’t acted as a deterrent and perhaps it’s time to think about whether they should be in society at all…the key should be thrown out for them.”

    For myself, in the absence of evidence to suggest otherwise, I am happy to trust the police not to charge with indecent assault if it is the “drunken grope” you have referred to on earlier occasions Graeme…But what happens if it’s someone’s 10th “drunken grope” and they have been clearly warned that while they were charged with common assault a couple of times before (or not charged at all), a strike charge will be preferred the next time…and there IS a “next time”??

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  48. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    a young guy got offended by a cougar……otherwise it would never have got out of the office.

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  49. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    wiki: Yep…that’s about the size of it I suspect…

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  50. F E Smith (3,302 comments) says:

    DG, I disagree with that Northland barrister; as far as I am concerned violence offences should clearly be strikes.

    I am happy to trust the police not to charge with indecent assault if it is the “drunken grope” you have referred to on earlier occasions Graeme…But what happens if it’s someone’s 10th “drunken grope” and they have been clearly warned that while they were charged with common assault a couple of times before (or not charged at all), a strike charge will be preferred the next time…and there IS a “next time”??

    If they have done it more than once then they should be charged appropriately the moment it became a repeat offence.  

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  51. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    It is to be noted that at least three second strikers – now facing a third 3S conviction, and a sentence of 7 years with no parole – whose first two strike offences were indecent assaults committed on the street, and not “drunken gropes”…

    What is the view of my two learned brethren re the appropriate treatment for a serial “street” indecent assaulter? Isn’t a 3S charge appropriate in their cases?

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  52. James Stephenson (2,040 comments) says:

    a young guy got offended by a cougar……otherwise it would never have got out of the office.

    No, I think you’re wrong there.

    “Several sources said the woman grabbed the crotch area of at least one male colleague at the function.”

    I think what we have here is a case of what we could call “moped syndrome”, riding one is great fun until your mates see you.

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  53. Chuck Bird (4,686 comments) says:

    Davina Murray was sentenced sensibly, can’t remember what she got but certainly wasn’t a discharge without conviction.

    @GPT1

    You would not be a lawyer by any chance? Davina Murray should have got jail time not community service. She is appealing hoping to get a discharge without conviction and presumable practice law again.

    This wrong on two counts. I doubt if a male lawyer would have got a non-custodial sentence unless he was a homosexual and the prisoner was male.

    In the case of seriously dodgy lawyers or judges a one strike law should apply. They should never practice law again. The same should apply to teachers and doctors who undermine their profession.

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  54. kowtow (7,653 comments) says:

    Oh my God PG has admitted to being a sex pest!

    Pete George ,aka the Beige Badger, has emerged from his set with a new identity …..Pete Groper.

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  55. Monique Angel (252 comments) says:

    This is common behavior in the over 40 age group here in California! We have some fun parties.

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  56. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    How would you differentiate between a harmless grope and a harmful one, Pete?

    If the person who is groped is offended.

    So you can only know if it was harmless or not after the case?

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  57. Harriet (4,532 comments) says:

    “……I wouldn’t have the qualifications and experience today if I had done anything about it … finding employment again after snitching on the boss does not endear you to potential employers…..”

    Complete rubbish Judith….well in the past maybe…..but this day and age women are better to complain – and be prepared to leave.

    My sibling had it happen to her – just a verbal experiance – got a lawyer and had her mortgage paid out by the company. All within about 10 days. Then happily changed jobs.[Her lawyer said it would be emotionly unpleasent for her to stay - even though the offender had to leave the publicly listed company.] Companies know it is best to keep it out of the courts and papers.

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  58. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    kowtow: Yes indeed! This is the most surprising revelation since Philip Ure admitted to obtaining a bus driver’s licence in two different names….after making hay endlessly at my expense..

    PG: do you know if any of your victims were traumatized enough to need counselling? How many drunken gropes were there, may one dare ask?? Would you describe yourself at that time as a “serial groper”??

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  59. Harriet (4,532 comments) says:

    “…..I’ve done a fair bit of having fun when I’ve been pissed including harmless groping, it’s been mutual and consenting….”

    Fair enough Pete. It’s all about context.

    Similar to wifes being ‘unwilling’ to have sex because the husband is pissed – or stinks from being out fishing – but consents all the same to having sex with him. That context is not rape.

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  60. Pete George (22,866 comments) says:

    Ryan – that’s an interesting point. It requires judgement in advance, something that some struggle with when drunk. It can amount to resist it or risk it.

    If you’re at a work Christmas do and decide to grope the boss’s daughter you can’t be sure if the boss couldn’t what happens like “out on the piss!” like David or if someone will take exception to the action.

    Drink is not the evil of all roots but it is of some.

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  61. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    PG: Serious question old sport.. Have you been imbibing? Your 3.18 – particularly the second para – is grammatically awful…and whatever your other sins may be, that is generally not one of them…

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  62. Pete George (22,866 comments) says:

    What else are you going to imply David? I was distracted and didn’t proof read properly, it was a mistake.

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  63. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    Pete George>I’ve done a fair bit of having fun when I’ve been pissed including harmless groping, it’s been mutual and consenting.

    Are you tempted to take things past the “harmless groping” point, now that gay marriage is legal?

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  64. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    Wasn’t “implying” anything old son! You have shocked all of us by confessing to being a “drunken groper”…I imagine that like Mr Ure, when his confession slipped out one day, you may have shocked yourself! By your own language – you have done “a fair bit of [drunken groping] when I’ve been pissed..”

    But hey, as they say, it’s after 5pm somewhere in the world! If you did need what the late Dennis Thatcher used to refer to as “a tincture” I for one would not judge you! Men in glass houses, stones, and all of that…

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  65. Pete George (22,866 comments) says:

    I don’t drink much these days, especially not during the day.

    The groping comment is being taken for far more than it was meant, I don’t know if that’s misunderstanding or malicious. Drunken couples grope, if it’s mutual and consensual (as I clearly said) then there shouldn’t be anything shocking about it.

    It’s totally different to unwanted groping. I thought you might understand something that simple.

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  66. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Ryan – that’s an interesting point. It requires judgement in advance, something that some struggle with when drunk. It can amount to resist it or risk it.

    So, Pete, the difference between harmless and harmful groping is entirely dependent on whether or not the recipient is offended by it when it occurs, and the only way to tell in advance whether or not you’re about to commit a crime is to predict whether or not the recipient will be offended?

    Not necessarily disagreeing, just clarifying your point.

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  67. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    Ryan: Well put sir! Pete, the floor would appear to be yours…

    Like Mr Sproull, I am having trouble understanding how you TELL if the prospective grope is going to be welcomed or highly resented…

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  68. corrigenda (142 comments) says:

    Office Christmas parties are good places to stay away from. Too much booze will always cause problems and office parties are notorious for sexual misconduct.

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  69. Pete George (22,866 comments) says:

    Ryan – yes, that’s what it can amount to. Not just groping, any sort of physical contact especially if it could be of a sexual nature.

    And it’s not just a sexual issue. I was once tackled in a street in Christchurch and was injured. Was that assault? Technically it was, but the tackler was my flatmate who was fooling around – and yes, alcohol was involved. If the police had seen it could they have arrested him? I could have thrown a tanty and complained that he’d gone to far. There can be many grey areas with assault.

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  70. Chuck Bird (4,686 comments) says:

    “I am having trouble understanding how you TELL if the prospective grope is going to be welcomed or highly resented…”

    David according to the to the man hating feminazis one who I quoted not long ago you are meant to ask them and and not proceed until you get a YES – ideally an enthusiastic YES PLEASE!!! i.e. do you want me to play with your pussy.

    As I recall that used to be PG’s postion also.

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  71. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    Someone earlier (Chuck I think) asked what had happened to Davina Murray’s appeal…It has failed, and her conviction and sentence to community work is upheld…

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  72. Pete George (22,866 comments) says:

    I am having trouble understanding how you TELL if the prospective grope is going to be welcomed or highly resented…

    From what you were saying before it didn’t matter if you were on the piss.

    Even if you’re sober you may not be able to tell in advance. Common sense means most people will err on the side of caution – in fact most will just keep their hands to themselves regardless – but drink can stuff common sense.

    The drunker you are the less likely you will use discretion and the more likely someone will be offended. Drink being what it is some people think they get more attractive as they drink, but others see it is uglier.

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  73. Pete George (22,866 comments) says:

    Chuck – your recollection is crap, I haven’t said anything like that.

    Coincidentally to what’s been discussed above (as per DG):

    @LIVENewsDesk

    Former lawyer Davina Murray has failed in her bid to have her conviction overturned for smuggling contraband to convicted murderer Liam Reid.

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  74. alex Masterley (1,491 comments) says:

    Can’t say I am surprised with the decision in the Murray appeal.
    I suppose the NZLS standards committee will have a look at her conduct. But as she is bankrupt, without a practicing certificate and unlikely to get one for the foreseeable future (in my opinion) I can’t see them wasting their time.

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  75. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Even if you’re sober you may not be able to tell in advance.

    And what is the recommended course of action in such a scenario?

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  76. Pete George (22,866 comments) says:

    Common sense, judgement and caution – in particular keep your hands off other people unless you have good reason to believe it is acceptable.

    Most normal interaction happens without problems. When booze becomes involved the risks go up and so does the risk taking.

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  77. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    Alex: At least she has the devoted love of her “great kisser” rapist and murderer to sustain her in her time of need…

    I must say I was more than a little miffed to hear her claim that her case – smuggling contraband to a convicted rapist and murderer – was analagous to mine…Justice Venning apparently was able to distinguish the two cases…

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  78. flipper (3,590 comments) says:

    The whole subject has been screwed by esoteric point scoring by all sides.

    True story:
    My wife became sick and tired of the continual breast cupping/squeezing of her by a business associate of mine at one of our formal dinner parties.

    Finally, as everyone was departing, she grabbed D****, squeezed and twisted.. She whispered in his ear: “The next time it will be my knee.”

    So, problem solved.

    Put this in proper context. A couple become involved in a passionate tryst. One thing leads to another and there are mutual gropes. Then suddenly, because one party is “offended” it becomes a court case.

    This is just crap.

    If a passionate “grope” is assault, then ….work it out. And no precious pin-head dancing, please.

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  79. F E Smith (3,302 comments) says:

    What is the view of my two learned brethren re the appropriate treatment for a serial “street” indecent assaulter? Isn’t a 3S charge appropriate in their cases?

    David, I still think that indecent assault should not be a strike offence, as it is too broad to say all indecent assaults are strike worthy. It might have been worth dividing the offence into levels of culpability like, for example, arson, and making the worst one a strike offence.

    I understand the point you are making, and but right now I just don’t think that indecent assault, given the breadth of situations it can include, should qualify.

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  80. F E Smith (3,302 comments) says:

    But as she is bankrupt, without a practicing certificate and unlikely to get one for the foreseeable future (in my opinion) I can’t see them wasting their time

    I have to say that I hope that they do.  What she did was an affront to all of us practising at the Defence Bar, and makes our life more difficult by reducing the amount of trust and freedom we get from prisons and police watchhouses, as well as generally bringing the profession into disrepute.

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  81. Chuck Bird (4,686 comments) says:

    I think in the case of Murray it is a shame Stephen Franks idea was not adopted. That is if a person already gets treated leniently by the Court they should not get a second bit at the cherry with no cost. That is Court cost for wasting time and/or an increased penalty. He was one of the better ACT MPs.

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  82. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    FES: Are you aware that a third strike charge must be approved by the Commissioner of Police’s office? Can you really see the Police laying such a charge if the offence is truly one of Pete’s misunderstood drunken gropes??

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  83. alex Masterley (1,491 comments) says:

    DG,

    Murray is deluded.

    FES.

    I understand your point of view.

    But consider this, If the NSC looks at the matter and resolves to prosecute then it will go to the Disciplinary Tribunal in about a year that is if the LCRO doesn’t get involved. The likely outcome of a prosecution will be most likely be suspension with an order for costs thrown in. NZLS operates a no cash no splash rule. If you owe money to the society for fines or costs you don’t get a practicing certificate until the money is paid or an arrangement to pay is made. Given Murray is impecunious I can’t see her getting a practicing certificate for some time.

    Given that the NZLS pays for the costs of the Tribunal and then under the LCA recovers that from the lawyer the NSC would seriously consider the merits of proceeding.

    I had a discussion with Jonathon Temm a year or so ago. He indicated that the amount owing by naughty lawyers to the NZLS was approaching the million dollar mark. I appreciate that things may have changed with the passage of time but given the cases that have come before the tribunal where there is no hope of recovery of costs (orlov is an example) I can’t see the amount due shrinking anytime soon.

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  84. gravedodger (1,517 comments) says:

    Peter George please would you take todays roll book to the principal’s study and do not under any circumstances bring anything back, not even your pedantic self absorbed boring carcass, oh and I have a headache.

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  85. UpandComer (506 comments) says:

    The male junior lawyer shouldn’t have complained. Having been in this position he should have done the decent thing and showed tact, consideration and forgiveness. Of course, said senior female lawyer then would have owed him…

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  86. Chuck Bird (4,686 comments) says:

    We need more details. Drunk or otherwise I cannot see myself just groping a woman’s crotch. If she opened her mouth when I kissed her that would be a different matter. If this cougar thought she could just grope some guys’s dick and it should be treated as a joke or the guy should appreciate it she should be treated a drunken male colleague in the same situation.

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  87. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    Bit harsh Chuck! Guys of our generation could handle this kind of situation – in the unlikely event it ever occurred – without running off to the headmaster…I gotta say this generation of young men are not in the same league as the pioneers who hacked out a living from the bush…

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  88. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    Oh dear. Denny Crane with tits?

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  89. kowtow (7,653 comments) says:

    ……he should have hacked the life out of her bush!

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  90. F E Smith (3,302 comments) says:

    DG,

    I thought it was the local Crown Solicitor, but I stand corrected, and yes, if it is indeed a third go around. They have discretion but still have to apply the guidelines.

    alex,

    A fair set of points, but in my view her behaviour has brought suspicion to all of us at the Defence Bar and it is one case that really requires a stand to be taken to say that it is completely unacceptable, notwithstanding the convictions.

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  91. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    Playing devils advocate here (as is our trade) Murray must surely have delusions in the psychiatric sense? Reid is one of the most odious criminals in a New Zealand jail…he was convicted of both crimes on overwhelming evidence, in the rape case, the victim herself…And this silly tart falls in love with him because inter alia, he is “a great kisser…and just gets me”??

    she clearly needs professional help…

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  92. mara (726 comments) says:

    When I was young and luminous in the 70′s and 80′s I dealt with this stuff quite easily. The gropee in this case should grow a pair and fuck off; his complaint is pathetic.

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  93. tvb (4,210 comments) says:

    Getting pissed at a Xmas party to the point where your behaviour is out of control is a fools game. OK we have all got trashed at a function and made dicks of ourselves. I tended to get mouthy but managed to avoid any groping. Don’t drink now and I leave Xmas functions nice and early usually immediately after the speeches at the latest. Work functions are a trap and one should only stay long enough to be seen and then leave with a huge sign of relief.

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  94. Harriet (4,532 comments) says:

    Pete George (21,456 comments) says:
    March 3rd, 2014 at 3:45 pm

    “….I don’t drink much these days, especially not during the day….”

    Reads like you used to though Pete…..a lot!

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  95. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    mara: So back in the day, older women groped you quite often did they? I hope they were lookers!!

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  96. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Uh, Harriet…

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  97. Harriet (4,532 comments) says:

    It is about context.

    I went to a single sex secondry boys school, and after leaving school I sometimes meet the girls I went to primary school with.

    I used to ping their bra-straps if I recognised them in the pub and announced that they’ed grown up so much. :cool: They didn’t mind. All in good fun. Nothing really wrong with that.

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  98. adze (1,870 comments) says:

    UpandComer, contextually shifted to circa 1960s:

    The female junior lawyer shouldn’t have complained. Having been in this position she should have done the decent thing and showed tact, consideration and forgiveness. Of course, said senior male lawyer then would have owed her…

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  99. Chuck Bird (4,686 comments) says:

    “Bit harsh Chuck!”

    But we are now in the 21st Century. At my age I am not likely to be done for rape. However my grandsons could be if some of the lunatic feminists have their way.

    In our day most men would think that if a woman lifted he arse off the bed or couch so you could pull nickers off that was consent. That apparently is not the case now.

    It is only in the last 10 or 20 years that an adult woman could have sex with someone under 16 and that would not be a criminal offense.

    I know some men can be petty in arguing about equality with arguments that men and women should pass the same physical tests as men for entry into the police. Some argue that women should have to compete with men in sport. I view these arguments as silly.

    I do not think expecting the law to be applied equally for men and woman is petty.

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  100. Brian Smaller (3,999 comments) says:

    Maybe the female lawyer in question was just trying to tug at his heart strings, and being pissed, missed.

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  101. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Men are treated unfairly and this case would be handled differently by both the courts and the media if it was a woman complaining about what a man did to her, just having a bit of fun.

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  102. David Garrett (6,463 comments) says:

    Harriet: so how long have you identified as a woman? Did said identification begin after some trauma?

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  103. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Very very disappointed, the police have gone soft narking each other up and now the legal profession.

    Lawyers on their day on the piss are the equal of any police ” couple of drinks” usually great fun , how is getting your nuts grabbed at a Xmas do a problem.

    And As Colville says ” An Eccle in ya plonk sure livens up the proceedings .

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  104. Harriet (4,532 comments) says:

    “…….Harriet: so how long have you identified as a woman? Did said identification begin after some trauma?…”

    I’m not identifying as a woman…

    …..I just like being able to express the most outragous female charactures….just like trannys do…….and get an automatic free pass from the feminists…..Labour’s rainbowed…….PC nutters………

    [I didn't realise when I first posted that I couldn't change it. And kiwiblog doesn't allow me another account. You can call me anything you like DG - most others do. Harry-it usually. :cool: ]

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  105. Chuck Bird (4,686 comments) says:

    ” how is getting your nuts grabbed at a Xmas do a problem.”

    PEB please expand

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