General Debate 10 April 2014

April 10th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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368 Responses to “General Debate 10 April 2014”

  1. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

    The darkness drops again but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

    William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
    THE SECOND COMING

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  2. duggledog (1,559 comments) says:

    Here’s an excerpt from Audrey’s article about some political party in NZ called ‘Labour’ (no I’ve never heard of them either) in today’s Herald.

    Try and read it:

    ‘Dr Norman said it was clear that Labour could not form a Government without the Greens and Labour’s voted wanted it to form a coalition with the Greens.

    A genuinely new forward-looking Government would need a strong Green Party there.
    “The stronger the Greens are there, the more progressive will be.”

    Polling suggests the Labour would not be able to form a Government without the support of both the Greens and New Zealand First.’

    *********

    What a f***ing joke. I know it’s only the online version and some poor subbie in the Philippines has other things on their mind but really.

    Newspapers’ core business is words and ideas written down. If I was running that particular business I’d be getting a few people into my office. What a shambles

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  3. prosper (168 comments) says:

    Can anybody tell me who runs the transport blog and how is funded.

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  4. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,903 comments) says:

    Here’s a guess. Truckies and road tax.

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  5. Nostalgia-NZ (5,220 comments) says:

    The ‘voted’ should have been ‘voters.’ We are seeing Cunliffe continue the push away from the Greens in the hope it draws back some of the sleepers – even though it’s purely a pragmatic HC style move to make Labour appear more distinct in its own right.

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  6. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    Facts and opinion weigh heavily against – Simon Bridges guilty of blatant bull

    Once could be excused as a slip but making three similar claims means Bridges looks guilty of extreme ignorance or he made blatantly false claims. Either is inexcusable for a Minister.

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  7. Nostalgia-NZ (5,220 comments) says:

    https://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/carter-holt-harvey-to-face-trial-191407183.html

    Heavy hitters being called to task.

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  8. Viking2 (11,488 comments) says:

    Timid and hypersensitive to opinion polls – that is Don Brash’s scathing verdict on the performance of the Government led by the man who replaced him as National’s leader.

    In his most damning criticism of John Key, Dr Brash says even a “blind dog” can see that the ageing of New Zealand’s population means changes are going to be required to pensioner entitlements currently received under the state-funded New Zealand Superannuation scheme.

    Devoting a chapter in his autobiography to assessing the performance of the Key Government, Dr Brash says he fears that the Prime Minister – “while certainly intelligent enough to do so” – does not recognise the seriousness of the challenges facing the country.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11235299

    An interesting and viable critical analysis of this Govt.

    Bascically, Key is a show pony and English is what he always was. Not that intellectually bright and a very conservative farmer and Catholic.

    Sad for NZ

    He admits he was disappointed Mr Key and Finance Minister Bill English ignored the task force’s recommendations. But he says he would not have been so disappointed had Mr Key and his ministers produced an alternative vision backed up with coherent and internally consistent policies.

    “If there is such a vision, it is certainly not visible to this observer.”

    Dr Brash says that realistically it may be too late for Mr Key to make a fundamental change in direction unless he wins the coming election and throws caution to the wind.

    Referring to Mr Key, he says it cannot be conducive to good government when even the most popular political leader in a generation is holding onto power by the skin of his teeth.

    Yep.
    Oh for a better opposition or ACT getting its act together and pulling some strings.

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  9. dirty harry (502 comments) says:

    NZ dollar against the US…87.1.

    Petrol still sitting on 2.13.

    Fuckin fuel company bastards..want it all their way all the time…dollar drops by half a cent…petrol shoots up 4-5c a litre
    Dollar increases 3 to 4 cents… no downward movement in price.

    Boycott all purchases from service stations excluding fuel. No pies , no papers , no lotto , no oil (use Repco ), nothing

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  10. Viking2 (11,488 comments) says:

    For those Nats. that think they are a shoe in.

    This election should have been fought by the two leaders that have quit the Party.
    Tony Ryall and Simon Power.

    Oh for what could have been.

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  11. EAD (1,128 comments) says:

    Did anybody else wonder just what lengths Plunket NZ had to go to find the statistical oddity of a gay couple with a young child of Prince Georges age so they could demonstrate their “right-on” credentials?

    It’s even Year Zero down at the Plunket :)

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  12. duggledog (1,559 comments) says:

    Dirty Harry

    I don’t go near the major fuel companies’ stations. I use Gull, last time I filled up 2.01.9 cents per litre. At the Z station up the road it’s more than 2.10 cents and then about five k’s away there is an independent selling 91 @ 2.23 ish.

    I’m lucky to have the Gull option on my main commute route but yeah kiwis do get shafted every which way from gas to ACC to food to other taxes, they are just too dumb to think about their vote or who they’re even voting for so they could actually do something about it.

    God knows how many times I have told friends who are financially conservative, responsible, self-reliant people that the only party that actually reflects them is ACT, but none of them would cast their vote that way.

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  13. doggone7 (808 comments) says:

    On Stuff this morning: “Liam’s chance at life.
    Baby Liam would not be here if his parents had followed a midwife’s advice to have an abortion.”

    Well … yes.

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  14. dirty harry (502 comments) says:

    The four big sisters BP , Z , Mobil and Caltex all royally screw us. They are totally corrupt. Good deal with Gull , wish they were down this way.

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  15. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    Don’t hold your breath Shawn:

    The Great Prophet Zarquon was a galactic prophet from ancient times, and was thought to be revered throughout the galaxy. He had scores of followers and disciples who waited diligently for an event they called “The Second Coming of the Great Prophet Zarquon”. Unfortunately the prophet’s lack of punctuality caused this event to happen only merely a few brief seconds before the end of the Universe itself, during which time he was able to utter only the words “Sorry I’m late…” before the universe ended. (From the Douglas Adams novel “The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.”)

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  16. jcuk (693 comments) says:

    Yes we all know Mr Brash …. my vote is for the sensible policies/actions of John Key and Bill English but heaven protect us from the rest of the mob as illustrated in Parliament yesterday … why couldn’t the stupid bastard change his phrasology to claim the truth instead of a stupid lie.

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  17. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    More from the Brash Bio. review:

    While Dr Brash called for the decriminalisation of cannabis when he was Act’s leader, he is now backing the legalisation of all illicit drugs as the only sensible policy when it comes to eliminating drug-inspired crime and the consequent power gangs derive from supplying drugs, and helping addicts get their lives back in order. He says, however, that selling drugs to teenagers should remain a criminal offence.

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  18. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    EAD: You’re joking, right? Please tell me that that venerable institution “Plunket” did not stoop to such foolishness…

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  19. Yvette (2,823 comments) says:

    Several weeks now the Mana Dotcom party has been talked about without anyone really saying how it would work.
    Cameron Slater’s early on explanation seemed to be based on Law designed for party break-up rather than union and seems a long shot.

    One assumes neither the “Internet Party” nor “Mana” will appear on the Voting Form, but a third party.
    And Hone Harawira would stand in his current electorate under that third party, to hopefully gain that seat to let in the Party Vote List seats they may gain.
    For voters to know who else might gain seats, the combined third party List would have to be “set in concrete” and publicised before hand.

    What other way is there under MMP?
    Why has the Electoral Commission not made any comment?
    Has no opposing party or journalist thought of asking them?

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  20. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    DG, it’s called the long march through the institutions. Guess they finally got around to capturing Plunket.

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  21. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    duggledog: You get what you pay for. I have a Benz that had a few injection hiccups; the company from where it was purchased asked if I used Gull? I used whatever was handy, but after being informed of what Gull and Mobil (to a lesser degree) contained in additives, I have stuck to Caltex and Z, and no more troubles.

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  22. prosper (168 comments) says:

    I agree that it would be good to have a strong act party however it appears to have a so called intelligent academic with abilities on a par with the leader of the Labour party.

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  23. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    Goodbye to American spam

    On Wednesday, Dmitri Kiselyov, the head of the Rossiya Segodnya media group, said that the Voice of America (VOA) was a radio spammer with nothing of interest to offer its audiences. Kiselyov explained that the authorities terminated VOA’s rebroadcasting rights in Russia due to its contract for operation in the Russian Federation expiring. He said, in a 21 March letter to the US Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG), which coördinates broadcasting of the two outlets, “It doesn’t have anything to do with the freedom of speech because Voice of America and Radio Liberty have nothing original to say. They sound like they broadcast from another world, at least from a world that doesn’t exist anymore. I regard these radio stations as mere spam on our frequencies. They’re boring and lacking in self-criticism. We aren’t going to coöperate anymore. I don’t feel compelled to help these radio spammers air their shows in Russia”. Kiselyov sent the letter in response to BBG’s inquiry about prolonging the contract for broadcasting VOA. BBG chairman Jeff Shell decried Kiselyov’s letter as an attack on the freedom of speech. VOA is the official external broadcast institution of the US federal government. In 1947, VOA started broadcasting to Soviet citizens in Russian under the pretext of countering the Soviet point of view on American policies

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  24. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    Putin is clearly desperate to shut down any news service not run by the Kremlin. They have a habit of exposing the corruption he and his cronies have been engaged in.

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  25. Ross12 (1,432 comments) says:

    It’s fine for Brash to be critical from the side lines to help sell his book but he , of all people, should know that the real problem is the voting system –MMP. It does not matter which side is in power they will be there “by the skin of the teeth” and so they govern effectively with one hand held behind their back.

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  26. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    PUTIN’S WAR AGAINST FREEDOM OF INFORMATION.

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/68148

    “Putin’s media-control campaign went into overdrive just weeks after the start of the Euromaidan protests in Kyiv, kicking off with a December announcement about the reorganization of the state-run RIA news agency, a move plainly designed to bring it under tighter Kremlin control. Putin also launched a purge of independent thinkers among media professionals. Among the latest victim is an editor at Lenta.ru, one of Russia’s leading news websites, let go for ostensibly for posting an interview with a prominent Ukrainian ultranationalist. Back in February, the CEO of Ekho Moskvy, a radio outlet that often views events with a critical eye, got the sack and was replaced by a Kremlin crony.

    Not only are individual journalists being purged, the Kremlin is trying to disappear entire news sources. Early in the year, the Kremlin squelched the independent cable news channel Dozhd (Rain). Then, on March 13, state media regulators summarily blocked a bevy of independent and opposition-oriented websites. One of those blocked sites, Ekho Moskvy, was later unblocked after removing a blog written by Alexandr Navalny, the most popular and vocal critic of Putin in Russia.

    The same sort of thing is going on in academia and the non-profit sector in Russia: those capable of independent thinking are being systematically bullied into co-opting their beliefs, or at the very least, remaining silent. Putin’s chief instrument of coercion over civil society activists is legislation that makes it difficult for NGOs to accept grants from foreign sources. The Kremlin is threatening to make life similarly difficult for academics who use foreign grant money to conduct research.

    The Kremlin’s efforts are even extending into social media: the founder of VKontakte, Russia’s version of Facebook, was pressed not too long ago to sell his stake in the company to a Putin pal. It’s also worth mentioning that the State Duma, Putin’s rubber stamp legislature, has reportedly mulled a bill that would make the publication of anything deemed “anti-Russian” tantamount to treason, leaving those responsible vulnerable to lengthy prison sentences. The bill has been shelved, but it could be brought out of mothballs at any time.

    The way things are going, it won’t be long before the Kremlin will have achieved critical mass in the domestic information sphere; it may soon be even harder for Russians outside of Moscow and Petersburg to gain access to dissenting voices than it was back in the samizdat era.”

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  27. EAD (1,128 comments) says:

    @ David Garret,

    sometimes you’ve just got to laugh at their earnestness or you’d cry. I quickly perused their “Latest news” section and found this little gem about “child impact statements”:

    “As part of the Every Child Counts coalition we have asked for a child impact assessment to be put across all forms of local and central government planning and policy. The purpose – to ensure the impact on children and the family unit has been taken into consideration because……. “Quite simply these children are our future communities”

    Because that is exactly what we need – more highly paid bureaucrats to oversee existing bureaucrats who have probably outsourced their work to another part of the “not-for-profit” sector to watch over us and pass laws as we go about our lives so that we don’t make the “wrong” choices or suffer the consequences of our actions.

    Dare suggest that this might be a gross waste of money and you will be slammed for attacking “hard working kiwi families” or “putting jobs at risk” or “not thinking about the children”

    I recall an old saying about getting the governments you deserve?

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  28. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    The Western media has been in overdrive broadcasting anti Russian and anti Putin stories for months Shawn.

    They tell so many lies its hard to know where to begin – they deliberately mistranslate Putin’s words continually.

    Of course Russia scares them – it has Christian foundations and a spine.

    It is also not in Debt unlike the decadent West whose population live better than any on the planet but only by borrowing money to maintain it.

    And how long can you borrow money to fund a life style that is beyond your means?

    The crash is coming and the good times and nonsense that the West considers its birthright will be gonE

    Drowned in its own arrogance and hedonistic self absorbtion

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  29. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    EAD

    Chuck Bird posted a great joke yesterday in relation to the babies talking about their parents…..

    George ….my mum and dad are a prince and princess.

    PC Plunket ,post modern Aotearoan baby….so,both mine are queens.

    But on a serious note ,the Royals must do the bidding of their political masters.Yesterday Kate and Wills subjected to that Orwellian circus while back in Britain Gran had to host a former terrorist murderer at a state dinner.

    You’d wonder what they think of “their” Ministers at times like that.

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  30. fernglas (157 comments) says:

    New topic. If the cross-examination of Pistorious is South Africa’s idea of a fair trial, no wonder they have all moved to the North Shore.

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  31. Yvette (2,823 comments) says:

    ROB MULDOON MADE THE WORST DECISION IN NEW ZEALAND HISTORY
    Labour leader David Cunliffe said New Zealand was still paying for Muldoon’s decision.“Rob Muldoon grabbing the Super Fund money for his own purposes was clearly the worst decision in New Zealand political history.

    alternative headline:
    CUNLIFFE GOES BACK 39 YEARS TO FIND SOMETHING POSSIBLY WRONG WITH NATIONAL

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  32. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    Andrei

    You are absolutely right about the decadent west that no longer stands up for itself.

    The future will be very ugly as there will be a reaction from the currently silent,over taxed and long suffering majority.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2600815/More-4-000-migrants-arrive-Europe-boat-just-TWO-DAYS-Italy-says-half-million-preparing-set-sail-Africa.html

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  33. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “Of course Russia scares them – it has Christian foundations and a spine.”

    All of Europe and the Americas have Christian foundations, and did so while Russia was drowning in Communism for over 60 years.

    As to having spine, beating up on little countries on your boarders has more to do with hysteria driven paranoia.

    Decadence is alive and well under Putin. Didin’t Putin recently get divorced after an affair with a gymnast?

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  34. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Yvette (2,587 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 9:19 am

    So just how far back is it ‘appropriate’ to go in the pre-election shit slinging match?

    Do we have standards for this sort of thing, or does it depend on which team you support?

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  35. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    kowtow: What a class act the Queen is though eh? Imagine how that must have felt for her…having to host and be polite to a representative of the organization – if not one of the actual killers – which killed Lord Mountbatten, her cousin (?) in such a dreadful way…and you can be sure she made small talk and smiled nicely as she always does…I’ll bet Phil was nowhere near that spectacle though…he sure as hell couldnt be trusted not to smack the prick in the face….and who could blame him?

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  36. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    Well there you go Kowtow, these are Godless nations where men marry each other, live the high life and instead of raising children they import the people they need to keep things going who are gradually conquering them with their women’s wombs.

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  37. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    David Garrett (5,085 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 9:28 am

    What a class act the Queen is though eh?

    Isn’t she just? Pure Class! Phil, we’ll, he’s a different type of class. I meet him when a young teenager and have to say, he was thoroughly entertaining and delightful with us girls, but extremely rude to one of his staff members who was trying to hurry him. I get the impression that Phil does not suffer fools well. Having said that, he gave up a lot to marry QEII, but seems to have managed to play second fiddle and retain a sense of ‘self’ at the same time. They say he rules the palace – and even the Queen jumps when he demands it.

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  38. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    beating up on little countries on your boarders has more to do with hysteria driven paranoia.

    Countries Bombed by the USA since 1980
    Lebanon 1982-84

    Grenada 1983-84

    Libya 1986

    El Salvador 1981-92

    Nicaragua 1981-90

    Iran 1987-88

    Libya 1989

    Panama 1989-90

    Iraq 1991

    Kuwait 1991

    Somalia 1992-94

    Bosnia 1995

    Iran 1998

    Sudan 1998

    Afghanistan 1998

    Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999

    Afghanistan 2001

    Libya 2011

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  39. Longknives (4,764 comments) says:

    Re the Plunket thing-

    “Tristine Clark, president of New Zealand parental support service Plunket, told the Telegraph: “The parents are a spread of all the communities in New Zealand, including Maoris, Samoans, people of Chinese descent and gay couples.”

    Excuse me while I puke.

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  40. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Hey Andrei, a number of those countries on your list weren’t bombed at all, while others just had a few cruise missiles fired at them. The rest, well they had it coming to them. The Russians are probably just jealous that they’ve only managed to bomb Afghanistan and Chechnya over the same time.

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  41. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Maori, Samoans and people of Chinese descent appear to make Longknives sick.

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  42. Longknives (4,764 comments) says:

    Don’t be a dick Mikenmild…

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  43. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Longknives

    So what ‘sort’ of babies do you think should have been chosen for the play group Longknives?

    Blue eyed blonde haired baby boys, who at 8 months have demonstrated they only want to play with ‘male’ associated toys, and of whom have not adopted any affection towards anything that could be determined as feminine (except their mother’s breasts) ?

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  44. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Mikey: You wanker…you are very well that’s not what ‘Knives meant at all…as soon as I read that puke inducing piece I thought “where are the Tongans – they are a large ‘community’ here…. Where are the Afghanis; the Japanese; the Poles; the Czechs…”

    Once you get into the nonsense of trying to be totally “representative” you open a messy can of politically correct worms..

    One question though…how did they select PI parents who could smile nicely at a couple of gay parents? Perhaps that’s why there were no Tongans…your average Tongan isn’t too fond of mincing nancy boys…

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  45. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

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  46. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Countries Bombed by the USA since 1980

    How many of those actions did you support Andrei, back in the days when communists still ruled the USSR and you were still a citizen of the West – the days before Gay Marriage in other words.

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  47. lilman (960 comments) says:

    Garrett ,I would gladly shake his hand,Mountbatten was an arse with blue eyes.
    ONE BLEW OVER THERE…..ONE BLEW OVER THERE.

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  48. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    Politically correct tokenism is insulting to the people supposedly being “represented.”

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  49. Longknives (4,764 comments) says:

    Don’t be as much of a dick as Mikey Judith…

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  50. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    Should we mention the Eastern European countries enslaved by Soviet Communism for decades?

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  51. flipper (4,083 comments) says:

    The Plunket comment in the Telegraph is pure PC bullshit… and it proves to me that the great PC equalisers in the Tours Office at Internal Affairs are alive and well. And that makes me want to puke.

    But as for mikey…. go back to work dumbass!

    In passing, I had an email this morning from Colorado… it seems that the Wills/Kate/George show is getting substantial coverage on Denver FTA TV and on Cable TV…and in newsprint.

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  52. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Longknives (4,024 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 9:59 am

    It was a serious question. IF the task had been given to you, to select a group of babies to play with Prince George, how would you have made your selection? You clearly don’t like the selection made, so how would you have made it?

    I asked the question because yesterday at a meeting I voiced similar opinion that the play group was taking PC to the max, and someone asked me, well who would I have picked? I couldn’t say, because I just hadn’t considered the implications of that choice.

    I am generally interested – if what was done, wasn’t right, how should it have been done?

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  53. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    Real military pride, without the commie jackboots.

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  54. flipper (4,083 comments) says:

    lilman (655 comments) says:

    April 10th, 2014 at 9:56 am
    ****

    Which Mountbatten ????

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  55. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Thanks for your concern flipper, work is going fine at the moment and I appreciate your interest.

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  56. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Judith: In answer to your presumably serious question about how the selection could have been done…have you every heard of putting names in a hat?

    lilman: What a disgraceful comment…well may you hide behind a psued you sad apology for a human being…Terrorist killings are NEVER Ok, no matter who the terrorists are, or what their cause is.

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  57. Urban_Redneck (92 comments) says:

    @ Andrei.

    And it gets worse. Former Surgeon General, Dr Joycelyn Elders recently chaired into a report which effectively called for outright transgendered inclusiveness in the U.S military.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/mar/13/us-military-trasngender-ban-commission-no-compelling-medical-reason

    Elders served in the Clinton administration from 1993, but was fired by Bill B.J Jefferson Clinton a year later due in large to her public ruminations that state schools should be instructing their students on how to masturbate.

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  58. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Redneck
    “I hope their takeaway will be we should evaluate every one of our people on the basis of their ability and what they can do, and if they have a condition we can treat we would treat it like we would treat anyone else,”
    Obviously an unrealistic aim, eh? I was fascinated to read that there is an estimated 15,000 transgender personnel in the US armed forces.

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  59. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (5,087 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 10:13 am

    Yep, that’s one suggestion (but what then happens if you draw some socially undesirable name – perhaps a Mongrel Mob members child? Mongrel Mob member meets Prince George – would have made an interesting head line.

    I am surprised that there hasn’t been a general outcry from those who don’t use plunket – it is popular, but its not universally used.

    Fact is, it doesn’t matter how the selection was made, there were always going to be some that were upset – I think they did the best they could do, despite how ridiculously PC it was – when you rely on donations for your existence, you have to take the option that will upset the least amount of people.

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  60. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    I’m a pretty old fashioned conservative, but if anyone wants to put their life on the line and serve their country then all power to them.

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  61. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Good news for Hurricanes fans:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/9925498/Mark-Hammett-won-t-stay-with-Hurricanes

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  62. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    “PC gone mad” has been a cliche for some time…(but then as they say, how does a cliche become a cliche?)…but this stuff about “transgendered persons” in the armed forces surely is as far as it can go?

    I am 55 years old and resolutely anti PC…and I don’t much care if my opinions are fashionable or popular…Who can honestly envisage the Normandy landings being undertaken by the current mish mash of Gods knows what which makes up the US Army? I remain in never ending awe at those guys from 70 years ago…and yes, there were undoubtedly gays among them, and who knows, a few confused transgenders too…but they were soldiers in the US (and British and Canadian) armies, there to do a terrible job under terrible conditions…and they bloody did it….and suffered terrible casualties in the doing.

    Crikey, I could write a whole page and nothing would be any different! Time to head for the hills and set up some survivalist community…

    Shawn: “Serving their country” as a drone pilot, many miles behind the action maybe…storming a heavily defended beach? I don’t think so..

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  63. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Crikey, I could write a whole page and nothing would be any different! Time to head for the hills and set up some survivalist community…

    Good luck with that, but remember, ‘dem there hills’ aren’t all free and easy – there is ‘conservation’ to think of … probably better to build yourself a spaceship – I don’t think anyone has claimed ownership of the universe yet.

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  64. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You a fan of ‘Doomsday Preppers’, David? It’s a great show.

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  65. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Seriously, I am surprised there hasn’t been a generalised revolt against the ever encroaching digital world, rather like the hippie revolt against “the rat race” 40 or 50 years ago…Life has become infinitely more complicated and dominated by technology than the hippies could ever have dreamed of…straight or sober…but everyone seems to just …buy another “device” with which to live our increasingly complicated and digitally dominated lives…

    I fantasise about a community on a property somewhere at the end of the dead end road in Taranaki or the East Coast, with nothing more complex than a desktop PC and a cordless phone…Anyone want to sign up?

    Mikey: Yes, I have seen that show…too American for me…and I dont see any coming “doomsday”; I just find living in the increasingly technologically dominated world tiresome…and it is only going to get worse…It wont be long before EVERYTHING is “online only” and help desks – if they exist at all – are staffed by robots…not a pleasant thought for me….

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  66. Urban_Redneck (92 comments) says:

    The Left is moving into the next treasonous phase of the their San Francisco-style sabotage of the world’s once-greatest military. As political commentator J Matt Barber wryly said “in a few short years, “don’t ask, don’t tell” has become “do tell, do flaunt.””

    TPNN’s Greg Campbell reported on a recent example: “While Russia invades Ukraine, as Islamic terrorist factions plot the West’s destruction, our service members at Kadena Air Force Base in Okinawa, Japan, are being treated to ‘gay’ and lesbian drag shows.”

    Watch the video. It speaks for itself. Under the Obama Administraton, these guys, er, gals, er, whatever, represent, at least in part, what their enemies will face on the front lines.

    http://www.stripes.com/news/gay-lesbian-troops-perform-in-drag-at-kadena-air-base-fundraiser-1.270747

    As WND reports:

    A controversial ex-surgeon general, fired by President Bill Clinton after recommending children be taught how to masturbate (Joycelyn Elders), now has released a report advocating the incorporation of transgendered people into the U.S. military, and contending that a 40 percent attempted suicide rate and 43 percent burden of ‘additional psychiatric diagnoses’ constitute no reason to exclude them from America’s armed forces.

    It’s the brass I feel for. It can’t be pleasant watching the venerable institutions of the US military being transmogrified into a global laughing stock.

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  67. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    And back to Prince George Judith…I doubt whether many Mob Mothers are consumers of plunket services…

    Urban Redneck: Quite so…imagine how Admiral “Bull” Halsey of the US Navy, hero of the Pacific War, would react if he came back and saw what had happened to “his” navy…mixed crews on ships, half of them with other than heterosexual orientation (there were always gays in the navy, apparently) demanding their “rights”…doesnt bear thinking about…

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  68. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    An academic woman reads Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion, finds it has no cogent arguments against the existence of God and becomes Catholic :)

    http://www.deadphilosopherssociety.com/2014/03/30/reading-richard-dawkins-led-to-my-conversion/

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  69. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Putin is clearly desperate to shut down any news service not run by the Kremlin. They have a habit of exposing the corruption he and his cronies have been engaged in.

    You mean like the US and UK with Snowden and Wikileaks?

    Anyone who supports any of these losers is choosing a giant douche over a shit sandwich. They’re all useless, corrupt and incompetent.

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  70. backster (2,174 comments) says:

    D.G….Couldn’t have a Tongan their babies are three times the size of normal at 8 months, poor little Georgie would feel overwhelmed safer to stick with the fairies.

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  71. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, @8.01am

    Great poem.
    Joni Mitchell set it to music. The live version from Travelogue is best (the orchestra gives it extra power), but I could only find the original recorded version –

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  72. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    An academic woman A seminary graduate reads a third of Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion, finds it has no cogent arguments against the existence of God and becomes “begins the last leg of her journey of conversion” to become Catholic

    Not begrudging anyone their right to have silly reasons to believe things, Fletch, but I think I fixed that for you.

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  73. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    It’s the brass I feel for

    There has been a kind of Stalinist purge of the military.

    They do things like make Army Drill sergeants exercise in pregnancy empathy bellys, allegedly so that they can understand what it feels like for the pregnant soldiers under their care :(

    The sergeants leave at first opportunity – its not their army anymore

    But at the staff level “sexual harassment” complaints are the tool of choice as the purge mechanism

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  74. Urban_Redneck (92 comments) says:

    Dawkins, like most soft-core atheists (by soft-core atheists I mean the type of crude, street style atheism that would’ve disgusted Nietzsche and Sartre) have an personal animus towards religion that they can never quite bring themselves to admit, or they simply don’t like the moral and ethical restraint that religion places upon the pursuit of willful self-indulgence.

    Catholicism appears to be Dawkins’ particular Room 101.

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  75. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Just for something a bit different. For the past couple of weeks there has been a guy outside Parliament in the evenings with a sign:
    ‘Abolish the law of homosexual marriage or this city, Wellington will be destroyed by God the same as Sodom and Gomorrah’
    Always gives me a smile. Anyone else got any crazy messages in their faces each day?

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  76. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    I see Andrei is again spamming V Of R and RT propaganda.The list of countries the US has bombed is devoid of any context and background information e.g whether or not it was UN mandated as in Libya 2011 (NB Russia abstained from Resolution 1973 that mandated airstrikes carried out by ,incidentally ,Britain and France . Similar applies to Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999.
    Thanks Shawn for most pertinently highlighting the decadent Putin and a country where , like in the West, porn is readily available, not to speak of the rampant corruption associated with Billionaire Oligarchies.

    I see goose stepping is still the rage in the Russian military,

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  77. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    Iv’e decided to give anarchism/libertarianism up for Lent. UT and Reid have in a round about way done me a favor and turned me off fringe politics, or fringe anything, and driven me into the mainstream arms of National. :)

    It was always more of an abstract thought experiment anyway.

    “Thanks Shawn for most pertinently highlighting the decadent Putin and a country where , like in the West, porn is readily available, not to speak of the rampant corruption associated with Billionaire Oligarchies.”

    Here to help! :)

    “The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep.”

    Or in short, back later.

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  78. Nostalgia-NZ (5,220 comments) says:

    flipper 10.01 seems that the High Court is going to explain what most people should already know about web site hosts being responsible for what 3rd parties publish or link, as well as those 3rd parties still holding responsibility. A 5 year argument takes some definition for the not so bright.

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  79. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Dawkins, like most soft-core atheists (by soft-core atheists I mean the type of crude, street style atheism that would’ve disgusted Nietzsche and Sartre) have an personal animus towards religion that they can never quite bring themselves to admit, or they simply don’t like the moral and ethical restraint that religion places upon the pursuit of willful self-indulgence.

    No. He’s an educated man and thinks religion is stupid. I’m inclined to believe him insofar as the beliefs of most people who profess religion seem to be profoundly stupid.

    And in its own way Dawkins’ atheism is much more complicated and well thought out than that of either Nietzsche or Sartre (whose works I am guessing you have not read either).

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  80. Elaycee (4,393 comments) says:

    Anyone else got any crazy messages in their faces each day?

    Yes!

    They usually start: “mikenmild (8,574 comments) says”: :lol:

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  81. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    milkensick: Get back to your rainbow haven, your Clark-type comments are putrid, demonstrating the type of person that supports the left!

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  82. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Nice burn there LAC

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  83. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Touché, Elaycee

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  84. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Does anyone else here have ESET NOD32 anti virus? Are you getting endless messages showing that this or that web address has been blocked by the virus program??

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  85. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    I’ve decided to give anarchism/libertarianism up for Lent.

    Better to give them up because they’re a bit silly, eh?

    Q. What’s the difference between Communism and Libertarianism?

    A. Communism actually works (not well, but it works).

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  86. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Does anyone else here have ESET NOD32 anti virus? Are you getting endless messages showing that this or that web address has been blocked by the virus program??

    No, but then again I’m not searching for “hot asian teens”. ;-)

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  87. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    tom J: Neither am I! Only good red blooded adult porn sites on my “Favourites” List….no…this problem is chiefly happening when I am here at KB…it’s now also blocking links to youtube etc. that others are posting…

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  88. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    “The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep.”

    Stop with the chick lit, bro.

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  89. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Yesterday one of our resident Jew Haters signed off with the mythical claim that the Jews control Hollywood . This kind of claim naturally spills over into the Jews control the media and thence the banks , international finance and control of the world .This specter of Jewish World control and domination first appeared in in the forged ” Protocols of the Elder of Zion.” continued and spread by Henry Ford’s mag ” The Dearborn Independent .” and a variety of far right and fringe publications including , of course, Nazi Germany.
    The link below begins to help unravel the myths of Jewish control of Hollywood and media etc,

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/10/do_jews_really_control_the_media.html

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  90. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Yesterday one of our resident Jew Haters signed off with the mythical claim that the Jews control Hollywood.

    But they do, according to the Los Angeles Times’ Joel Stein

    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/19/opinion/oe-stein19

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  91. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    No, no stephie – it’s ‘the Zionists’ in control of Hollywood.

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  92. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Nietzsche
    His Concept Übermensch.
    The Internet-based connection of humanity is a step beyond prior human abilities, concepts of information and social interaction. Since 2000 being socially connected has become an overriding human obsession .

    Übermensch in English

    The first translation, published in 1896, of Thus Spoke Zarathustra into English was by Alexander Tille, who translated Übermensch as Beyond-Man. In the Thomas Common translation, published in 1909, however, Übermensch was rendered as “Superman”. Common was anticipated in this by George Bernard Shaw, who had done the same in his 1903 stage play Man and Superman. Walter Kaufmann lambasted this translation in the 1950s for two reasons: first, its near or total failure to capture the nuance of the German word über (while the Latin prefix super- means above or beyond, the English use of the prefix or its use as an adjective has altered the meaning); and second, a rationale which Fredric Wertham railed against even more vehemently in Seduction of the Innocent, for promoting an eventual puerile[citation needed] identification with the comic-book character Superman. His preference was to translate Übermensch as “overman”. Scholars continue to employ both terms, some simply opting to reproduce the German word.[1][2]

    The German prefix über can have connotations of superiority, transcendence, excessiveness, or intensity, depending on the words to which it is prepended.[3] Mensch refers to a member of the human species, rather than to a male specifically. The adjective übermenschlich means super-human, in the sense of beyond human strength or out of proportion to humanity.[4]

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  93. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    This kind of claim naturally spills over into the Jews control the media and thence the banks , international finance and control of the world .This specter of Jewish World control and domination first appeared in in the forged ” Protocols of the Elder of Zion.” continued and spread by Henry Ford’s mag ” The Dearborn Independent .” and a variety of far right and fringe publications including , of course, Nazi Germany.

    If that’s what people were saying, then it would be false. Good job they aren’t. People are talking about the Israel lobby, which is open and not some kind of conspiracy. It isn’t even the most powerful lobby in America: the AARP and the gun lobby have more pull. They are no more corrupt or secretive than any one of the other lobby groups.

    The US media are wildly pro-Israel to the extent that some articles published in mainstream Israeli newspapers would never be published in the United States because they would be considered anti-semitic. Quite why that is, I do not know, but it’s not unreasonable to suggest that the high proportion of Jewish Israel supporters who work in executive positions in media might have something to do with it.

    A case in point: if television characters accurately represented the ethnic mix of the United States, there would be hardly any Jewish characters on them. But there are lots, which is probably due to many of the writers being Jewish and writing about what they know.

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  94. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson , the lie is refuted here,

    http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/the-jewish-media-the-lie-that-wont-die/

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  95. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Meh
    yada yada yada.

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  96. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    And the Joel Stein article was of a satirical bent and flavour but naturally swallowed whole up by a number of jew hating , conspiracy ,white supremacists blogs and websites ( all much of the same )

    http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2008/dec/23/jews-hollywood-film bent

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  97. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    ““Tristine Clark, president of New Zealand parental support service Plunket, told the Telegraph: “The parents are a spread of all the communities in New Zealand, including Maoris, Samoans, people of Chinese descent and gay couples.”

    Excuse me while I puke.”

    lol they just had to have two homos there. “cause thats what new zealand is like”. really? 10% of parents are gay couples?

    Say Dime was overseas, living in china. they had a visit from someone important and dime got “selected” to meet them cause he was a blonde round eye, Dime would be outright offended.

    How would have dime done this?

    Step 1 – who wants to meet the royals? submit your name.
    Step 2 – draw 10 names out of a hat.

    Done.

    Anything else is just insulting.

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  98. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (890 comments) says:

    I read with interest that the Local Government clowns are now coming up with no ways of taxing the hell out of citizens…..if they can cut down their crazy ideas and wasteful spending there is no need for extra income. I hope John Key puts fire to these crazy tax plans.

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  99. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    And the Joel Stein article was of a satirical bent and flavour but naturally swallowed whole up by a number of jew hating , conspiracy ,white supremacists blogs and websites ( all much of the same )

    And apparently by the article you linked.

    You really seem to have a bee in your bonnet over nothing. Hitler is dead.

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  100. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    @ Tom Jackson,

    “No. He’s an educated man and thinks religion is stupid.”

    Dawkin’s, for all his “education” does not have a clue when it comes to real Christian theology. He thus resorts to absurd caricatures and silly strawmen. I have seen a few debates on youtube where he has had his ass handed to him.

    Alistair McGrath does a good job of fisking him in ‘The Dawkins Delusion.’

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  101. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson , the lie is refuted here,

    Amusingly enough, most of the board of that organisation appear to be of Jewish origin.

    tee hee

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  102. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “You really seem to have a bee in your bonnet over nothing. Hitler is dead.”

    Anti-Semitism isin’t, not by a long shot, and stephie is right about Reid’s ideology. It’s not just reasonable critique of Israel. Reid has made it clear that he considers all Askhenazi Jews “Satanic Zionist thugs” to use his own words.

    That’s anti-Semitism.

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  103. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Dawkin’s, for all his “education” does not have a clue when it comes to real Christian theology.

    Nor do most Christians, who have a rather simple view of it. Hence, Dawkins is right about them.

    “sophisticated Christian Theology” always turns out not to be on closer inspection.

    If you believe in evolution by natural selection, then you cannot believe that the existence of human beings is anything other than the result of a series of accidents. Religions view human existence as necessary, rather than contingent. It follows that the evolutionary view contradicts the religious world view, and because there is piles of evidence for the former, the religious world view has little to recommend it to the rational person.

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  104. flipper (4,083 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ (4,654 comments) says:

    April 10th, 2014 at 11:31 am

    flipper 10.01 seems that the High Court is going to explain
    ******

    Excellent Nos. Been busy so have not caught up… When???

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  105. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Anti-Semitism isin’t, not by a long shot, and stephie is right about Reid’s ideology. It’s not just reasonable critique of Israel. Reid has made it clear that he considers all Askhenazi Jews “Satanic Zionist thugs” to use his own words.

    The fact that Reid is the sort of person who endorses such views is a good reason not to worry over much about them.

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  106. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Are you on windows XP ?
    DG
    The operating system of death?
    A ticking clock towards total Unsupported XP’s unpatched security bug system corruption .
    http://windows.microsoft.com/en-NZ/windows/end-support-help

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  107. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    Some lucky natives: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8827969/parliament-passes-23m-treaty-bill

    Parliament has passed legislation which gives effect to a $23 million treaty settlement with Maungaharuru-Tangitu hapu. The hapu are based north of Napier in Hawke’s Bay and the settlement covers historic claims over land confiscation.

    The settlement includes a crown apology, the gifting back of culturally significant sites and $23m redress.

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  108. Liberty (267 comments) says:

    So where does the westcoast/tasman labour MP Damien O’Connor stand on drilling
    For prosperity on the west coast.
    Is he going to support growth,prosperity and work for the locals
    Or is going to crawl up the greens. As the word around the traps down the west coast Labour and the greens have done a deal.
    http://www.3news.co.nz/Minister-didnt-know-park-was-in-drilling-plan/tabid/1607/articleID/339311/Default.aspx

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  109. Kleva Kiwi (289 comments) says:

    “Tom Jackson (2,203 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 11:39 am
    I’ve decided to give anarchism/libertarianism up for Lent.

    Better to give them up because they’re a bit silly, eh?

    Q. What’s the difference between Communism and Libertarianism?

    A. Communism actually works (not well, but it works).”

    On what planet do you think we are living on. Oh, Planet Labour.
    Communism dose not and has never worked in the history of humans!

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  110. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    lilman

    Your remarks at 956 are in very bad taste.

    You are one nasty piece of shit.

    That day was a very dark one in the history of the island.

    Mountbatten,an old soldier and great statesman,and his relatives murdered ,a boatboy too. 18 paratroopers blown up in a particularly cynical ambush at Warrenpoint.

    Lilman, How do you commemorate ANZAC Day?

    And when you praise your freedom fighters ,remember they murdered Irishmen first and foremost.The “English enemy ” thing is just a cover for corruption and murder.

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  111. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Shawn
    Dawkins’s position, of course, is that one does not have to have any expertise in Christian theology to argue against the existence of (any) god.

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  112. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    If you want a good account of why anti semitism occurs, Thomas Sowell’s is as good as any (assuming that he is not too liberal for some on this blog).

    http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/7727

    IMV it’s the endogamy that is fatal. Nothing pisses a society off more than people who won’t intermarry with the majority.

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  113. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Communism dose not and has never worked in the history of humans!

    Oh really? Russia went from being a backwards semi-feudal state that had just lost a war to being an industrialised, nuclear-armed superpower that put the first satellite and human being in space, all in less than 40 years. And they did the majority of the heavy work in defeating Hitler during that time.

    The Soviet Union may have been odd and weird, but it managed to provide a modern standard of living and education to hundreds of millions of people. Tito’s Yugoslavia worked even better than the Soviet Union did.

    It’s obviously not the best way to organise a society, but it works after a fashion. Libertarianism on the other hand has never been shown to work at all. That’s my point: communism is proven to deliver a reasonably functional society. Libertarians have no examples of even partially successful mass societies run on Libertarian principles.

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  114. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    David Garrett

    Have a read of: http://techblog.pro/how-to-access-denied-website-blocked-by-eset-nod32-antivirus-due-to-dangerous-content/

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  115. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    It’s obviously not the best way to organise a society, but it works after a fashion. Libertarianism on the other hand has never been shown to work at all. That’s my point: communism is proven to deliver a reasonably functional society. Libertarians have no examples of even partially successful mass societies run on Libertarian principles.

    By “Libertarian”, are you referring to laissez-faire capitalist minarchies?

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  116. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson, I would say Thomas Sowell finds favour with you for a number of other reasons than you site. Some background which helps to explain all. First he’s a Libertarian and believes Obama is another Adolf Hitler and the US is on the road totalitarianism .
    The fact he’s a contributor to Joseph Farrah’s to the right of Fox , World Net Daily speaks volumes.Also the US and Obama appeasers is in danger surrendering to Iran and other associated r nuttiness

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell

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  117. All_on_Red (1,584 comments) says:

    Tom
    How would you class Venezuela?

    ps- Thomas Sowell is just brilliant!

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  118. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    All on Red,

    Er um read my above post and does it bother you, err that he’s Afro American.?

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  119. katydid (10 comments) says:

    Still wishing that the Chinese would hurry up and invade:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cbMLeeV1ww

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  120. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson, I would say Thomas Sowell finds favour with you for a number of other reasons than you cite

    He doesn’t find favour with me at all. I just think his argument was a cogent one in this particular case.

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  121. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    By “Libertarian”, are you referring to laissez-faire capitalist minarchies?

    Whatever would match up reasonably well with Libertarian principles. I can’t think of any modern mass society that works like that. Can you

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  122. All_on_Red (1,584 comments) says:

    stephieboy (1,023 comments) says:

    April 10th, 2014 at 1:07 pm
    All on Red,
    Er um read my above post and does it bother you, err that he’s Afro American

    No, why should it? I judge people by their words and actions not how they look. I wonder what Al Sharpton makes of him though huh?

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  123. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Thomas Sowell is a bit of a nutjob, isn’t he?

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  124. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson, all I served to demonstrate is that Sowell is rather unbalanced and irrational. it would be reasonable to conclude that you would find similar in the publication you cited.
    Cogent.? In what ways exactly.?

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  125. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    Mr Sowell will wipe the floor with all of the lefties that inhabit KB.

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  126. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    See the US Navy has developed a method of extracting components for fuel from sea water. The process involves extracting CO2 and hydrogen and then liquefying it to use as fuel.
    The process is experimental at present, but has been used as fuel in a model aeroplane. They expect to have it perfected in the next decade or so, so that the US fleet can stay at sea 100% of the time, and not be required to return to port or be re-fuelled at sea with bunker oil.

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  127. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    Stephieboy, chaste feminist, will love it: http://www.newsmax.com/thewire/nancypelosi-slams-breitbart-twerking/2014/04/08/id/564286/

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  128. OneTrack (3,114 comments) says:

    ” Communism dose not and has never worked in the history of humans!”

    What do you mean? Stalin and Beria both said it was great.

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  129. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    “Er um read my above post and does it bother you, err that he’s Afro American.?”

    stephie – you really have a race problem. every fucking time with you its race!

    99% of the people here couldnt give a flying fuck what colour TS is, what colour Obama is.

    get help

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  130. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Don
    It is almost certain that this technology will not be able to be used in the way you describe. The energy inputs required would be very large. It is possible that it could be used by nuclear-powered aircraft carriers to produce jet fuel, but that would be a long way off.

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  131. KiwiGreg (3,255 comments) says:

    “communism is proven to deliver a reasonably functional society”

    You must be using the words “reasonably” and “functional” and “society” in some new way. I’m guessing your time horizon for whatever definitions you have applied to those words is pretty short.

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  132. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson, all I served to demonstrate is that Sowell is rather unbalanced and irrational.

    You’re the one engaging in ad hominem attacks instead of responding to Sowell’s argument. Who’s being unbalanced and irrational now?

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  133. James Stephenson (2,191 comments) says:

    I can’t think of any modern mass society that works like that. Can you

    I can’t think of any one that’s tried and failed, either, can you? The problem with Libertarianism, is that politics is a greasy pole that people with an attitude of “do what the hell you like, as long as you’re not harming anyone else” are supremely ill-equipped to climb – not that their model for society is flawed.

    Look at the US, gifted a head-start government-limiting constitution by some very wise heads, which has now been twisted into a “living” document that can be re-invented by a self-perpetuating political elite.

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  134. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    stephieboy (1,024 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 1:07 pm
    All on Red,

    Er um read my above post and does it bother you, err that he’s Afro American.?

    My GOD! That’s terrible, who the hell is teaching these people to read and write – what’s more, who the hell is picking the cotton if they are letting them waste time with pen and paper! What is the world coming to!

    Hey stephie – I see Briscoes have a sale on white sheets, if you’re quick……. ;-)

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  135. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    Mm. 1.46 pm.
    Here’s the article.

    ‘After decades of experiments, U.S. Navy scientists believe they may have solved one of the world’s great challenges: how to turn seawater into fuel.
    The development of a liquid hydrocarbon fuel could one day relieve the military’s dependence on oil-based fuels and is being heralded as a “game changer” because it could allow military ships to develop their own fuel and stay operational 100 percent of the time, rather than having to refuel at sea.

    The new fuel is initially expected to cost around $3 to $6 per gallon, according to the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory, which has already flown a model aircraft on it.

    The Navy’s 289 vessels all rely on oil-based fuel, with the exception of some aircraft carriers and 72 submarines that rely on nuclear propulsion. Moving away from that reliance would free the military from fuel shortages and fluctuations in price.

    “It’s a huge milestone for us,” said Vice Adm. Philip Cullom. “We are in very challenging times where we really do have to think in pretty innovative ways to look at how we create energy, how we value energy and how we consume it. We need to challenge the results of the assumptions that are the result of the last six decades of constant access to cheap, unlimited amounts of fuel.”

    The breakthrough came after scientists developed a way to extract carbon dioxide and hydrogen gas from seawater. The gasses are then turned into a fuel by a gas-to-liquids process with the help of catalytic converters.

    “For us in the military, in the Navy, we have some pretty unusual and different kinds of challenges,” said Cullom. “We don’t necessarily go to a gas station to get our fuel. Our gas station comes to us in terms of an oiler, a replenishment ship. Developing a game-changing technology like this, seawater to fuel, really is something that reinvents a lot of the way we can do business when you think about logistics, readiness.”

    The next challenge for the Navy is to produce the fuel in industrial quantities. It will also partner with universities to maximize the amount of CO2 and carbon they can recapture.

    ”For the first time we’ve been able to develop a technology to get CO2 and hydrogen from seawater simultaneously. That’s a big breakthrough,” said Dr. Heather Willauer, a research chemist who has spent nearly a decade on the project, adding that the fuel “doesn’t look or smell very different.”

    “We’ve demonstrated the feasibility, we want to improve the process efficiency,” explained Willauer.

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  136. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    I can’t think of any one that’s tried and failed, either, can you?

    That’s the problem. We are being asked to try something with absolutely no provenance. I happen to think that societies aren’t completely stupid. One reason communism and statism were so popular in the 20th century is that they were perceived as a fast track to industrialisation. Similarly, societies don’t generally have a problem trying something new if there are reasonable prospects of it making us better off. I don’t buy that there is some sort of conspiracy to stop it.

    Yet libertarianism has completely failed to get off the ground anywhere. Libertarians have no explanation for how societies are supposed to deal with the massive market failures that the welfare state corrects for. It’s no wonder they don’t get anywhere.

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  137. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    I thought I’d seen it all, but Stephieboy’s “Sowell is a nigger and therefore wrong” argument takes the cake.

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  138. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    Judith – youll find stephie thinks everyone here is an evil racist. everyone but him/her/whatever the hell it is.

    it thinks we all hate obama cause hes a black guy etc etc etc

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  139. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    This is a cool graphic illustrating the difficulty of finding the MH370 black box:
    http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/

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  140. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Don
    I think the difficulty will be running the catalytic converters. I’m guessing that the energy input to them will be greater than the energy output of the fuel produced.

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  141. James Stephenson (2,191 comments) says:

    I don’t buy that there is some sort of conspiracy to stop it.

    I’m not saying it’s a conspiracy, I’m just saying that the kind of people that will scrap to get into positions of power don’t then tend to say “I’m not going to tell you what to do” and “I don’t want to spend your money”.

    Also, sadly, the majority of voters will always shy away from a message of self-reliance. I’m a believer in the right-ness of Libertarian principles, but realistic enough to see that taking away the security blanket of big government is frightening to most…see also religion v atheism.

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  142. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ dime (8,695 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 2:00 pm

    Unbelievable.

    Racism includes unequal treatment. Not criticising a person that deserves that critique, because you are scared to do so, based on the colour of their skin, then it is allowing ‘colour’ to make a difference.

    If anyone is unable to critique another, simply because one of them has a different colour skin, then we have got no where with racism. Abolishing racism doesn’t just mean providing equal opportunity, it also means equal treatment – the good and the bad.

    I know nothing much of the topic in question, but if I cannot express my dislike of something President Obama does, because his skin is black and mine is white, then we still have a problem with racism (albeit a kind of reverse racism).

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  143. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “Nor do most Christians, who have a rather simple view of it. Hence, Dawkins is right about them.

    No he’s largely wrong, as he rhetorical approach to “those people” is heavily loaded with caricature and straw men, and he cherry picks his “evidence” to fit the conclusions he want’s.

    Nor are “those people” as numerous as you think.

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  144. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Whatever would match up reasonably well with Libertarian principles. I can’t think of any modern mass society that works like that. Can you

    The only one I’ve ever heard put up seriously was the libertarian socialist control of revolutionary Catalonia.

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  145. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    MM,

    “Dawkins’s position, of course, is that one does not have to have any expertise in Christian theology to argue against the existence of (any) god.”

    Then why is he writing books about Christianity? If he wants to argue about the existence of God write about that. But his arguments are about much more. To adequately critique something, you have to have an understanding of that subject. Christianity cannot be reduced to the argument about the existence of God, and Dawkin’s actually deals with many more, related to Christian theology. For example he tries to deal with atonement theology, but get’s his understanding of that so badly wrong that his conclusions are just as badly wrong.

    And it shows in his arguments.

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  146. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    If you believe in evolution by natural selection, then you cannot believe that the existence of human beings is anything other than the result of a series of accidents. Religions view human existence as necessary, rather than contingent. It follows that the evolutionary view contradicts the religious world view, and because there is piles of evidence for the former, the religious world view has little to recommend it to the rational person.

    I disagree with this, Tom, but I’m going to have to dissect it to identify precisely why…

    1. If you believe in evolution by natural selection, then you cannot believe that the existence of human beings is anything other than the result of a series of accidents.
    2. Religions view human existence as necessary, rather than contingent.
    3. It follows that the evolutionary view contradicts the religious world view, and because there is piles of evidence for the former, the religious world view has little to recommend it to the rational person.

    Ah, okay, there it is. I disagree with your first premise. Evolution by natural selection is not incompatible with believing that the existence of humans is anything other than the result of a series of accidents. Human life has evolved in 100% of all known universes, after all.

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  147. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “That’s the problem. We are being asked to try something with absolutely no provenance.”

    That’s not a very good argument. I’m sure in feudal times the idea of modern democracy would have been just as absurd.

    And Communism magnificently failed. By comparison to the West, communism, was a sad joke when it came to raising peoples living standards.

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  148. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    DTK

    A navy that never comes in to port!

    American ships are “dry” so there’ll be a lot of very unhappy sailors ,bar girls and owners around the world!

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  149. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    As for Dawkins, his problem is that he’s making a career out of writing books, and all atheism requires is one simple sentence: there is no good reason to believe that God exists. That’s too short for a book that sells. He could write rationally refuting all of the various attempts at saying there are good reasons to believe that God exists, but that alone would be too boring for a book that sells. So he has to get all emotive and snarky and caricaturish, which makes a book that sells, but isn’t particularly smart.

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  150. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘By comparison to the West, communism, was a sad joke when it came to raising peoples living standards.’
    To be fair this was not always apparent. Until the 1960s or so the Soviet Union had done pretty well in terms of material development. That’s not intended to be a general defence of communist regimes, BTW.

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  151. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “If you believe in evolution by natural selection, then you cannot believe that the existence of human beings is anything other than the result of a series of accidents.”

    No, because this assumes, with no evidence, that the existence of evolution itself is an accident. As this is assumption not science, your conclusion is wrong. Theism is not incompatible with evolution. It does not require theism but nor does it refute it. Your assuming that the process of natural selection is accidental. It does not look that way to me.

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  152. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    our Solar System is just one member of a vast Milky Way galaxy with 200 to 400 billion stars. But how many galaxies are there in the entire Universe?

    Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/30305/how-many-galaxies-in-the-universe/#ixzz2yRnHLcAU
    there are 100 to 200 billion galaxies in the Universe, each of which has hundreds of billions of stars. A recent German supercomputer simulation put that number even higher: 500 billion. In other words, there could be a galaxy out there for every star in the Milky Way.

    Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/30305/how-many-galaxies-in-the-universe/#ixzz2yRnPMkWz

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  153. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson (2,210 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 1:50 pm

    Sowell’s arguments.?

    That Obama is another Adolf Hitler and the US has surrendered to Ira etc. ?
    Carry on please.!

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  154. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    our Solar System is just one member of a vast Milky Way galaxy with 200 to 400 billion stars. But how many galaxies are there in the entire Universe?

    Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/30305/how-many-galaxies-in-the-universe/#ixzz2yRnHLcAU
    there are 100 to 200 billion galaxies in the Universe, each of which has hundreds of billions of stars. A recent German supercomputer simulation put that number even higher: 500 billion. In other words, there could be a galaxy out there for every star in the Milky Way.

    Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/30305/how-many-galaxies-in-the-universe/#ixzz2yRnPMkWz

    Yes, I’m inclined to think that life evolving in a universe is not so much accidental as inevitable.

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  155. SGA (1,069 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull at 2:27 pm

    1. If you believe in evolution by natural selection, then you cannot believe that the existence of human beings is anything other than the result of a series of accidents.

    Well… yes. But it is important to remember that part of the process, the “selection” part is not that “accidental”.

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  156. wreck1080 (3,923 comments) says:

    dirty harry (204 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 8:15 am
    NZ dollar against the US…87.1.

    Petrol still sitting on 2.13.

    Fuckin fuel company bastards..want it all their way all the time…dollar drops by half a cent…petrol shoots up 4-5c a litre
    Dollar increases 3 to 4 cents… no downward movement in price.
    *************************************

    You left one important factor out — the USD price of oil. It is not constant.

    Between early Jan and now oil prices have increased 13%. .

    Between early Jan and now, the NZD has strengthened against the USD by around 4% (.8377 to .8720)

    Therefore, the actual cost of oil in NZD has increased .

    Between early Jan and now, 91 octane at the pump has decreased from 2.18/litre to 2.14/litre .

    If anything, I think petrol pump prices are more likely to increase.

    The AA usually keeps a good eye on the petrol companies and they haven’t been complaining much.

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  157. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Thomas Sowell: Idiot Emeritus,

    http://otoolefan.wordpress.com/2010/07/31/thomas-sowell-idiot-emeritus/

    And to think the intellectual lightweight has some of our ” lightweight ” posters here enthralled and in raptures.

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  158. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    Scientists glimpse ‘dark flow’ lurking beyond the edge of the universe.

    Something lurks beyond the edge of the observable universe, drawing unimaginable numbers of stars towards it. Mysterious dark matter may lurk by Earth. Time is running out – literally, says scientist.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3352360/Scientists-glimpse-dark-flow-lurking-beyond-the-edge-of-the-universe.html

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  159. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Well… yes. But it is important to remember that part of the process, the “selection” part is not that “accidental”.

    I was quoting someone else there, SGA, but yes, that’s a worthwhile point. “Accidental” tends to imply a kind of random chaotic unpredictable occurrence. Evolution proceeds in an orderly fashion, with complexity arising from the confluence of simple factors that give rise to it.

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  160. goldnkiwi (1,312 comments) says:

    ‘Judith’ for el presidente, things she has/n’t done, places she hasn’t been, personages not met, are unparalleled lol ;)vive la presidente.

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  161. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    Evolution by natural selection is not incompatible with believing that the existence of humans is anything other than the result of a series of accidents.

    How so? Surely natural selection is by definition a series of serendipitous accidents.

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  162. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    ‘By comparison to the West, communism, was a sad joke when it came to raising peoples living standards.’

    i dunno, if you were an elite commie who hadn’t been whacked by your own govt, it may have been ok :D

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  163. James Stephenson (2,191 comments) says:

    How so? Surely natural selection is by definition a series of accidents.

    It’s difficult, or even impossible, to prove that it’s not a game played to rules that are deliberately set by some external “intelligence”. Just because to you or me, the simplest and most elegant explanation requires no such external force, does not mean that you can’t have a bob each-way.

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  164. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Well, that’s just getting into a kind of Russell’s Teapot style of argument. In general, extraordinary claims should require extraordinary evidence. There is no evidence for any kind of ‘external intelligence’, apart from the Flying Spaghetti Monster, of course.

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  165. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Apropos of His Noodly Appendages:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/weird-news/pastafarians-rejoice-as-church-of-the-flying-spaghetti-monster-is-granted-permission-to-register-as-a-religion-in-poland-9248689.html?origin=internalSearch

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  166. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull (6,575 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 2:44 pm
    Yes, I’m inclined to think that life evolving in a universe is not so much accidental as inevitable.

    Why inevitable?

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  167. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    500.000.000,000,000,000,000, 000 +

    solar bodies

    How many are going to have planets in the carbon based life sweet spot?

    silicon as an alternative base for life? other forms as yet proposed ?.

    The odds of two things seem pretty evident

    1 is there life out there ? probably yes.

    2 will we ever know ? such a vast cosmos and our efforts towards closing it… probably not.

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  168. James Stephenson (2,191 comments) says:

    Yes, that’s true mm, but I don’t generally have the energy or inclination to get anyone other than my own children to discard their treasured security blankets.

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  169. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    We have already discovered around 1800 extrasolar planets so far, with another few thousand possibilities. It has been estimated that there are around 40 billion Earth sized planets orbiting habitable zones around stars in the Milky Way alone. Life is out there, somewhere.

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  170. wikiriwhis business (4,019 comments) says:

    ALERT! Eric Holder Wants Gun Owners to Wear Tracking Bracelets

    In today’s video, AMTV reports on gun control using tracking bracelets.

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  171. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Atonement theology? It’s a remnant of sacrificial religion where people atoned for wrong doing with their own guilt offerings.

    But it is not consistent with grace of God teaching, excepting where someone else earns atonement for you and you then own them a debt.

    In times past, a wrong doer could be lent money to offer for any wrong to a victim and this debt they would have to pay back to the lender. Possibly the King would do it and have the debtor work for them as a slave in return for the debt. A but like making prisoners work for their keep and more.

    The wider connection between atonement (paying the bill by resort to a loan) leading to debt and “slavery to usury” is pretty obvious.

    The Cross as part of atonement theology makes one wonder about the resurrection of Lazarus before the Cross and what he had to do to later to earn this salvation … .

    Is belief that Jesus is the word made flesh and the bible is the word of God the way Christians pay off some debt?

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  172. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    What a sad place PC Britain has become!

    A crime to make rude/crude gestures!

    Imagine the archers in the Hundred Years War giving the fingers to the Frogs……..no no lads that’s a crime,don’t do that!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2601166/Ex-Premier-League-footballer-guilty-allegation-homophobic-gesture-fans.html

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  173. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Tank fuller of rain just hit

    Happy Happy Joy Joy.

    Any one driving in Franklin Aucklands active thunder storm weather system.
    please take extreme care.
    Wet oily roads that havent been rain washed for weeks are lethal.

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  174. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Thomas Sowell: Idiot Emeritus,

    And to think the intellectual lightweight has some of our ” lightweight ” posters here enthralled and in raptures.

    Some background about the intellectual lightweight:

    He received a bachelor’s degree from Harvard University in 1958 and a master’s degree from Columbia University in 1959. In 1968, he earned his Doctorate in Economics from the University of Chicago.

    Sowell has taught economics at Howard University, Rutgers, Cornell, Brandeis University, Amherst College, and UCLA. Since 1980 he has been a Senior Fellow of the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, where he holds a fellowship named after Rose and Milton Friedman, his mentor.

    In 2004, The Economist magazine praised Sowell’s books Affirmative Action Around the World as “terse, well argued and utterly convincing” and “crammed with striking anecdotes and statistics”[39] and Economic Facts and Fallacies: “Mr Sowell marshals his arguments with admirable clarity and authority. There is not a chapter in which he does not produce a statistic that both surprises and overturns received wisdom.

    I’ve also googled for “Stephieboy”‘s intellectual and scholarly achievements but have found nothing to date, which leaves me somewhat doubtful about his ability to call anyone an intellectual lightweight.

    Idiot.

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  175. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Thomas Sowell has an impressive academic record. He also compares Obama with Hitler, is a global warming denier and thinks Rachel Carson was a mass murderer.

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  176. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    “is a global warming denier ”

    say it isnt so!!! why isnt he in prison????????

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  177. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Which makes his non-academic persona that of a polemicist who sometimes makes outrageous claims – like Chomsky or Krugman – neither of whom you’ve ever called a nutter, at least on this forum.

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  178. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,515 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 2:34

    Communism magnificently failed. By comparison to the West, communism, was a sad joke when it came to raising peoples living standards

    It depends on whose living standards are being raised. Western state excel at raising the living standards of their own citizens by imposing onerous conditions on the satellite states they exploit. Cuba, for example, saw a massive improvement in the general population after the communists deposed the US sponsored Batista regime. Haiti, on the other hand, is a basket case by comparison as a consequence of being a victim of US tutelage.

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  179. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Evolution proceeds in an orderly fashion, with complexity arising from the confluence of simple factors that give rise to it.

    True enough. My argument only requires the existence of human beings to be contingent, and the mechanisms of evolution do not make human beings inevitable. A meteorite here, a different mutation there, different mutations among other organisms, and the environment would be quite different.

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  180. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Thomas Sowell has an impressive academic record. He also compares Obama with Hitler, is a global warming denier and thinks Rachel Carson was a mass murderer.

    None of which is relevant to his argument about the causes of anti-semitism. If it’s a good argument, it’s a good argument, even if written by the stopped clock that’s right twice a day.

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  181. All_on_Red (1,584 comments) says:

    why isnt he in prison????????

    Give it time Dime. They’re calling for that now, especially since they can’t shut the sceptics up. Or prove us wrong

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  182. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Yes, I’m inclined to think that life evolving in a universe is not so much accidental as inevitable.

    It doesn’t follow that human life or consciouwsness is inevitable.

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  183. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    “Cuba, for example, saw a massive improvement in the general population after the communists deposed the US sponsored Batista regime.”

    yeah Cuba is a wonderful example ahahahahahaha

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  184. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    ….”Thomas Sowell….is a global warming denier”….

    Get that man a DB!

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  185. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Along the lines of Yoza’s comment, if you had to choose between being an average citizen in Cuba and an average citizen in Haiti, which would you choose?

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  186. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,516 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 12:25 pm

    Reid has made it clear that he considers all Askhenazi Jews “Satanic Zionist thugs” to use his own words.

    ShawnLH is lying yet again.

    What Reid actually said was

    “… a Hollyweird run by God-hating Zionist satanic thugs”

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  187. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Ugly
    Are you a freeman on the land?

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  188. All_on_Red (1,584 comments) says:

    Actually Sowell would best be described as a ” luke warmer” in that he thinks the planet is warming but it won’t be catastrophic. Much like the majority of sceptics ( myself included)Yet we still get called warming deniers. The left trying to frame the narrative and smear to discredit huh.

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  189. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Tom jackson, impressive as though Sowell’s academic resume might be that doesn’t stop writing rubbish like this,

    “…..Turning tail and running in Iraq”? You mean that illegal, immoral war George W. Bush started instead of pursuing the actual people who attacked us on 9/11? Kind of like invading China after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Like the GOP today, Thomas Sowell’s solution to every foreign policy problem is WAR.

    After Sowell has us surrendering to Iran, here’s how he finishes that scenario:

    “Perhaps people who are gushing over the Obama Cult today might do well to stop and think about what it would mean for their granddaughters to live under Sharia law.”

    Thorazine, anyone?

    I can’t imagine that even Thomas Sowell believes this nonsense. He’s simply pandering to the serial bedwetters of the far Right. After all, it pays the bills. If, however, Sowell really believes this garbage he is clearly insane or, at the very least freebasing Metamucil.

    One of the most remarkable political events in recent times took place the summer of 2008 when then Senator Barack Obama spoke to a large, cheering crowd in Berlin. And what did the great Thomas Sowell have to say about this?

    “To find anything comparable to the crowds’ euphoric reactions to Mr. Obama, you would have to go back to the old news reels of German crowds in the 1930’s with their adulation of their Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler.”

    Actually, Mr. Sowell, no, we don’t. Not even close. We need only go back to June, 1963 when President John F. Kennedy addressed the brave people of West Berlin and stood proudly with them, declaring “Ich Bin Ein Berliner.” Remember that? It was kind of big deal. After his stirring speech, JFK was informed by the Mayor of West Berlin, Willy Brandt, that on his best day, Adolf Hitler, Fuehrer, never had as large an audience as he did on this day. ….”

    And the priceless cant continues on my link if you dare to look more closely, Tom old son.!

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  190. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Sorry, I should have called him a disbeliever in anthropogenic global warming.

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  191. All_on_Red (1,584 comments) says:

    Cuba, because it would be easier to escape to the US.

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  192. All_on_Red (1,584 comments) says:

    Mikey wrong again. We all believe mankind contributes to warming but not by much. Do you know by how much?
    We just don’t believe it’s catastrophic

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  193. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Are you a freeman on the land?

    No.

    Do you admit that molten steel was present amongst the debris of the twin towers?

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  194. emmess (1,428 comments) says:

    Cuba, for example, saw a massive improvement in the general population after the communists deposed the US sponsored Batista regime.

    Rubbish, in 1959, Cuba was the second or third wealthiest country in Latin America, it was on the verge of a developed country status (at the time), better off than southern Europe.

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  195. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Ugly
    No, there was no molten steel.

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  196. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Sorry, I should have called him a disbeliever in anthropogenic global warming will cause such catastrophic problems that we must “de-carbonise” the global economy in 50 years, 20 years, RIGHT THE FUCK NOW!.

    There you go mikenwild: more accurate, though not as punchy as “denier” – or Griff’s favourite Nut, nut, nutter. :)

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  197. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    How so? Surely natural selection is by definition a series of serendipitous accidents.

    Scott,

    Well, natural selection is the inevitable consequence of three simple factors: replication, variation and competition. That doesn’t preclude the possibility that God planned the universe that way.

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  198. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    No, there was no molten steel.

    So is the reason you deny it because to admit it would effectively mean admitting that 9/11 was a false flag?

    “Since there was molten steel in the wreckage of the World Trade Center, and since the temperatures of the fires were insufficient to melt steel, and since the gravitational energy was shown to be very much smaller than the energy needed to melt steel, the Twin Towers and 7 WTC could only have been brought down by explosives or cutter charges.”

    Terry Morrone, PhD – Professor Emeritus of Physics, Adelphi University.

    911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/moltensteel.html

    There are reports of molten steel beyond those cited by American Free Press. Most of these have come to light as a result of a research paper by Professor Steven E Jones, which has stimulated interest in the subject of molten steel at Ground Zero. *

    A report by Waste Age describes New York Sanitation Department workers moving “everything from molten steel beams to human remains.” 2

    A report on the Government Computer News website quotes Greg Fuchek, vice president of sales for LinksPoint Inc. as stating:
    In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel 3

    A Messenger-Inquirer report recounts the experiences of Bronx firefighter “Toolie” O’Toole, who stated that some of the beams lifted from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero by cranes were “dripping from the molten steel.” 4

    A report in the Johns Hopkins Public Health Magazine about recovery work in late October quotes Alison Geyh, Ph.D., as stating:
    Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense. In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel. 6

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  199. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:
    Yes, I’m inclined to think that life evolving in a universe is not so much accidental as inevitable.

    Why inevitable?

    RichardX,

    Given the scale of time and matter and diversity of interactions of that matter throughout the universe every second, it seems to me inevitable that at some point in time, in some place with matter, a pattern of matter will form that self-replicates. That’s life. After that, it only takes the potential for variation from one generation to the next, and scarcity of resources to create competition, for evolution to occur.

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  200. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    All in red is trying to say

    He believes it ok to experiment on planet earth to find out if a few fringe believers are right despite the fact that if our experiment goes wrong. as main stream science tells us it will. It will be too late to stop the process anyway.

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  201. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Evolution proceeds in an orderly fashion …

    That seems a rather old-fashioned view of evolution. The more we learn about life on earth over 4 billion years the more evolution seems to have moved in great, disruptive events as well as times of incremental change, although I’ll grant that the longer the time-scale the more orderly it can appear.

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  202. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull (6,577 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 4:34 pm
    RichardX,
    Given the scale of time and matter and diversity of interactions of that matter throughout the universe every second, it seems to me inevitable that at some point in time, in some place with matter, a pattern of matter will form that self-replicates. That’s life. After that, it only takes the potential for variation from one generation to the next, and scarcity of resources to create competition, for evolution to occur.

    Good call, thanks

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  203. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    tom
    Thomas Sowell probably earned the ‘nut, nut, nutter’ sobriquet when he became a columnist for Townhall.com.

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  204. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    That seems a rather old-fashioned view of evolution. The more we learn about life on earth over 4 billion years the more evolution seems to have moved in great, disruptive events as well as times of incremental change, although I’ll grant that the longer the time-scale the more orderly it can appear.

    By orderly, I just mean un-randomly, not at a consistent rate.

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  205. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    So should we lump you in with ShawnLH and the other liars now, mikenmild?

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  206. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Sorry Ugly, where have I lied?

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  207. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Possibly mm. Krugman certainly seems to have gone postal since joining the NYT.

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  208. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    You denied that there was molten steel amongst the debris of the twin towers when the evidence proves otherwise. If you were honest you would have a valid reason for your position.

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  209. Nostradamus (3,344 comments) says:

    I walked past a cafe 5 minutes ago on the way back to my office.

    The following message on the sandwich board reminded me of the toing and froing in Kiwiblog general debate thread over the past couple of days:

    Q: How does Moses make coffee?
    A: He brews it.

    :)

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  210. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    U T, sigh there was no molten “steel”,

    Molten steel was found in the basement seven weeks later and jet fuel can’t melt steel.

    Rebuttal: There is no documented evidence of the presence of actually-melted steel at ground zero. The molten material noted in the 911 Commission report was “slag”, not a molten metal. Most of the reports of “molten steel” found at ground zero were merely references to obviously red-hot solid steel. Even if they actually found “molten” metal, aluminum (which the planes were made out of) melts well under the temperature of jet fuel (pure aluminum melts at 660C, jet fuel burns around 980C[14] going up to 2,200C[15][16][17]). In addition, the mix of jet fuel, plastics, rugs, curtains etc. may burn hot enough to melt aluminum.
    Additionally, the melting point of steel is within the range of 1425-1540C[18], well outside the temperatures recorded at Ground Zero in the weeks following the attacks. What conspiracy theorists fail to note is that steel thermally expands while it remains strong and thus fire rapidly destroys uninsulated steel structures, and steel begins to lose its structural integrity (and red hot steel itself burns in air or in the presence of steam) at well below its melting point, or 700-820C, well within temperatures recorded at ground zero in the weeks following the attacks). Meanwhile, molten steel is not typically found at the site of buildings that have actually been demolished using “explosives” to sever columns. Also, the first law of thermodynamics prevents even the super hot molten product of thermite charges from remaining molten long after thermite ignition. Therefore, whatever molten materials were observed at ground zero in the weeks following the collapses, that molten material was not originally present and molten at the time of the collapses (it began to melt after the collapses, not before the collapses).
    That all being said, a 767 Family plane can carry up to 90,000 Liters of fuel in it’s hull. It is estimated the two planes had about 28,000 Liters left in their tanks which is spread all over the hull from the wings to the fuselage (for ballast and balance control). The crash and shredding of the plane hardware caused the fuel…”

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/9-11_conspiracy_theories

    Try again with the documented evidence.

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  211. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    U T, sigh there was no molten “steel”,

    Another lying liar who lies.

    Try again with the documented evidence.

    Same MO as ShawnLH, trying to shut out the relevant evidence.

    Witnesses can testify orally.

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  212. tom hunter (4,894 comments) says:

    Haiti, on the other hand, is a basket case by comparison as a consequence of being a victim of US tutelage.

    As opposed to the Dominican Republic, which shares the other five eighths of the island of Hispanola and has also been a victim of US tutelage – having similar problems with a history of corruption, dictatorial thugs and violence – yet still managed to produce a GDP per capita (PPP basis) that’s almost eight times greater.

    Maybe it’s something other than the dreaded influence of the USA – but that’s a subject for calm, considered debate, and this is all about polemics.

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  213. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I haven’t lied Ugly. I’ve merely pointed out that there is no evidence of molten steel. For example, you cite Professor Steven E Jones. Here’s a comprehensive rebuttal of his paper:
    http://www.debunking911.com/jones.htm

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  214. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I’m told that if you fly over Hispaniola one can see where the border is between Haiti and the Dominican Republic. One side has forest, the other is almost completely deforested. I understand most of the Haitian forest was cut down and burned to supply cheap charcoal.

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  215. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Sorry the compete end sentence from my quote that proves that the molten metal at ground zero was not “steel”,

    “….The crash and shredding of the plane hardware caused the fuel to detonate almost instantly. Since it was not a controlled burn it is likely to hit the highest end of the combustion scale at it’s core causing simultaneous ignition of anything around that was combustible and causing severe damage to load bearing pillars.

    UT your not a liar ,only a deluded one .!

    Witnesses can testify but only anecdotally and not qualified with the scientific or metallurgy training and expertise.!

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  216. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Witnesses can testify orally.

    I’m not really paying attention to this discussion, and it would require pharmaceutical assistance for me to care less, but are you saying that witnesses can testify orally that they saw specifically molten steel and not molten metal more generally?

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  217. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    I haven’t lied Ugly.

    Yes you have. This is your usual pattern, playing stupid when you get boxed into a corner.

    I’ve merely pointed out that there is no evidence of molten steel.

    The testimony of the witnesses proves otherwise.
    This testimony is corroborated by the extraordinary amount of heat present at the site, enough to keep underground fires burning for months.

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  218. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    are you saying that witnesses can testify orally that they saw specifically molten steel and not molten metal more generally?

    They can and have described molten steel rather than molten metal.

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  219. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Okay. Thanks.

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  220. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    That testimony doesn’t prove anything, Ugly. You have attempted to cite some academic opinion in support of your ‘molten steel’ claims. Now those opinions are shown to be misconceived, you fall back on some witness testimony that does not prove the presence of molten steel. To point out these flaws in your case is not lying. Even if I were wrong on this, which I’m not, I wouldn’t be lying as I am not engaged in a deliberate falsification.

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  221. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    UT , the testimony of a small number of fire crews and demolition crews untrained to distinguish between molten metal and steel.
    BTW the melting point of steel is between of 1425-1540 C well outside those actually recorded at ground zero .
    Plainly your out of your depth, yet again!

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  222. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    in that he thinks the planet is warming but it won’t be catastrophic

    What makes Sowell (or you for that matter) so sure that the warming won’t have catastrophic consequences?

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  223. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    Momentum gathering against AGW supported by science.

    http://video.foxnews.com/v/3450543291001/deepening-divide-over-climate-change/#sp=show-clips

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  224. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid recently argued that Zionists are not Jews because they are Khazars who say they are Jews and are not. And that all Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars.

    On evidence disproving any equivalence between Asjhekenazi Jews and Khazars (some Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of Khazar Jews), we now have him at the point where Askenazi Jews equals Zionists. And Zionists are the Jews “who say they are Jews and who are not”.

    The next step is to close further gaps in reid’s education.

    Not all Zionists are Ashkenazi Jews. Some of the Zionists in Europe (where modern day Zionism began) were Sephardim Jews. And many Sephardim Jews and Mizrahi Jews (often seen as part of the Sephardim group) have joined the Zionism since 1948.

    Today Zionists come from all Jewish groups apart from a few sects that reject Zionism.

    Nearly all Jews in Israel are Zionists and pro Zionist Jews in the USA include Jews from all cultural groups and the mainstream orthodox religious tradition of Ashkenazi and Sephardim Jews. So Ashkenazi Jew does not equal Zionist.

    The source of his argument is with Arabs who co-existed with Sephardim (and Mizrahi) in North Africa and the Middle East. And who saw Zionism as a European Jewish movement intent on a settlement of Palestine (which they opposed). For decades they talked of rapatriating European Jews back to Europe when the Israeli state was conquered.

    Conflating these European Jews with Ashkenazi with Khazars was supposed to make this easier for Europeans to go along with it, as it would not be “anti-semetic” if these European Jews were not of ME origin.

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  225. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi,

    Fox News the paragon of sound scientific objectivity and reasoning.?

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  226. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    That testimony doesn’t prove anything

    There is enough evidence to convince a reasonable man. Your opinion isn’t important.

    You have attempted to cite some academic opinion in support of your ‘molten steel’ claims.

    Yes, Terry Morrone.

    Now those opinions are shown to be misconceived,

    You are lying again.

    Even if I were wrong on this, which I’m not, I wouldn’t be lying as I am not engaged in a deliberate falsification.

    So you say. But for you to deny it when you have no direct knowledge and the evidence is clearly against you means that you are either lying or mentally defective, and you don’t come across as mentally defective.

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  227. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    But the evidence is clearly for me, so I can’t be lying. Thanks for clarifying that I’m not mentally defective though.

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  228. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    That doesn’t preclude the possibility that God planned the universe that way.

    Hmm, problem is there’s no evidence to suggest the universe was planned.

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  229. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Is it Zionists who “who say they are Jews and who are not”.

    Before replying note that nearly all Jews are either Zionists or support Zionism in some way.

    Are you saying that the state of Israel cannot be a Jewish homeland because this Zionism is not Jewish?

    Are you saying that Jews are forbidden from having any Jewish political nationalism and aspiration for national self government?

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  230. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Reid recently argued that Zionists are not Jews because they are Khazars who say they are Jews and are not. And that all Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars.

    That’s correct, that’s what I said.

    On evidence disproving any equivalence between Asjhekenazi Jews and Khazars (some Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of Khazar Jews), we now have him at the point where Askenazi Jews equals Zionists.

    You need a lesson in logic SGA. Just bacause all A’s are B does not repeat not mean that all B’s are A.

    I have never said that all Askhenazi Jews are zionists. Idiots like you, Shawn and mm took it to mean that, but that’s not what I said.

    If you look back over the years I’ve been making this point, you’ll see I’ve always been extremely careful to distinguish between the leaders of Israel and the citizens of Israel. I have ALWAYS said the leadership does not serve its people indeed it seeks to destroy it. And they do. But that doesn’t mean, der, that I’m saying that the entire nation state of Israel consists of the same type of people as its leaders. Does it.

    So if you’re going to critique my views, do me the basic courtesy of getting accuracy on my views, won’t you.

    Anti-Semitism isin’t, not by a long shot, and stephie is right about Reid’s ideology. It’s not just reasonable critique of Israel. Reid has made it clear that he considers all Askhenazi Jews “Satanic Zionist thugs” to use his own words.

    That’s anti-Semitism.

    Shawn how does your wife feel about you supporting zionist thugs who murder Palestinian children? Does she approve of your support of them?

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  231. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Hmm, problem is there’s no evidence to suggest the universe was planned.

    Scott,

    Sure. I’m not saying there is. I’m just refuting the claim that evolution being a series of “accidents” does not mean that the universe can not have been planned. (Replying to Tom here.)

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  232. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    UT , the testimony of a small number of fire crews and demolition crews untrained to distinguish between molten metal and steel.

    You don’t need training to identify molten steel. If you’ve been inside a foundry you can recognize it from the colour and the amount of heat that it gives off (and the fact that it is in a liquid state, of course). One of the fireman said that it was like being in a foundry.

    BTW the melting point of steel is between of 1425-1540 C well outside those actually recorded at ground zero .

    The recorded temperatures were surface hotspots of 700 C five days after the event. AFAIK the molten steel wasn’t found on the surface.

    Plainly your out of your depth, yet again!

    Hey idiot, how does aviation fuel and office combustibles result in underground fires that last for months?

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  233. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Is it just Jews who have wealth and or powerful office who are the “satanic thugs”. And of them, just the Zionist Jews?

    Just wondering, as not all of those Jews in Hollywood are Zionists or that supportive of Zionism … .

    And some of those “Jews” are not even Jews – while they have a Jewish family surname their mother is Gentile. And they do not qualify as a religious Jews because of their atheism or agnosticism etc.

    Yet they still qualify to live in Israel if they have a Jewish grandparent, thus they are potential Zionist migrants.

    But they choose to stay in the USA.

    Does their support for their relatives who are Jews or those who do decide to live in Israel make them Zionists or the “satanic thugs” who have wealth and position of power/influence who support Zionists?

    PS there are some pretty unsavoury types with wealth and power who oppose Zionism.

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  234. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    But the evidence is clearly for me, so I can’t be lying.

    1. Multiple witnesses say they saw molten steel.
    2. One witness said it was like being in a foundry.
    3. A professor of physics said there was molten steel.
    4. A sample of concrete was found that had been fused with steel.
    5. The extraordinarily high temperatures were consistent with the presence of molten steel.
    6. There is a photo of a steel beam with molten metal dripping off it.

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  235. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    Stephieboy (1,031 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 5:26 pm
    Don the Kiwi,

    Fox News the paragon of sound scientific objectivity and reasoning.?

    The Fox presenter did not express any view, did not offer any partisan comment – simply reported what others said – from both sides of the argument.

    Stephie – your bigotry is showing.

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  236. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, so you accept that not all Zionists are Ashkenazi Jews?

    Are you saying that it is not the Jews who are not Jews, it is only the Jews who they elect in office in Israel who are the Jews who are not Jews?

    Is wealth and power to the Jew what water is to a gremlin?

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  237. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    SGA,

    http://iamthewitness.com/

    Those are the people who I’m talking about. Look what they say:

    “It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .
    I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . .The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends”

    — Theodor Herzl, Founder of Zionism in 1897

    and

    “The Jewish people as a whole will become its own Messiah. It will attain world dominion by the dissolution of other races, by the abolition of frontiers, the annihilation of monarchy and by the establishment of a world republic in which the Jews will everywhere exercise the privilege of citizenship.

    In this New World Order the children of Israel will furnish all the leaders without encountering opposition. The Governments of the different peoples forming the world republic will fall without difficulty into the hands of the Jews. It will then be possible for the Jewish rulers to abolish private property and everywhere to make use of the resources of the state. Thus will the promise of the Talmud be fulfilled, in which is said that when the Messianic time is come, the Jews will have all the property of the whole world in their hands.”

    — Baruch Levy, Letter to Karl Marx, ‘La Revue de Paris’, p.574, June 1, 1928

    and look what an American says about them…

    “I’ve never seen a President — I don’t care who he is — stand up to them. It just boggles the mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn’t writing anything down. If the American people understood what a grip these people have got on our government, they would RISE UP IN ARMS. Our citizens certainly don’t have any idea what goes on.”

    Thomas H. Moorer
    (1912 – 2004)
    Admiral,
    US Navy & Chairman,
    Joint Chiefs of Staff during interview on
    24 August 1983.

    So let’s not have anymore lies from you, SGA, Shawn and mm. Educate yourself. You’re only making complete fools of yourself.

    Reid, so you accept that not all Zionists are Ashkenazi Jews?

    Quite frankly SGA I don’t care. If it’s a zionist, a real zionist and not just a patriotic Israeli, then they’re evil. If they’re just being patriotic because they don’t understand what zionism is, like most useful idiots in the west don’t, including you, Shawn and mm, then who cares. Let them educate themselves. But if they’re a real zionist like Cheney and the NPAC crowd, then they’re evil.

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  238. dirty harry (502 comments) says:

    This Royal tour seems to be going off with a bang..JK’s gona get good mileage out of it..

    Whats Labour ?

    Whos David Cunliffe?

    Muwhahahaha!

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  239. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Is wealth and power to the Jew what water is to a gremlin?

    I don’t know what water is to a gremlin SGA and I don’t care. Wealth and power is what zionists lust after because they have absolutely no spiritual values and therefore they don’t look to higher things but rather grovel in the sins of the flesh and concentrate purely on worldly matters. This is because they worship Satan.

    Please note that I said that’s what zionists do, I didn’t say that Jews do that.

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  240. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Do Zionists know that they worship Satan, Reid?

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  241. Steve (North Shore) (4,564 comments) says:

    katydid @ 1.10

    Still wishing that the Chinese would hurry up and invade:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cbMLeeV1ww

    There are some average ones, bur the nice looking ones are exceptional!
    Don’t see any hiefers or lardos – there ya go Rachel, build yourself up and show some pride

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  242. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, yeah just as when it was demonstrated that only some Ashkenazi have Khazar ancestry, you say you do not care.

    Well if you cannot (care to) defend conflating Ashkenazi Jew with Zionist then you should stop doing that as well.

    And it seems you have now decided that the term Zionist has a wider meaning than re-founding a Jewish nation state, subsequent Israeli patriotism and support from Jews around the world and thus can include any political ideology with an agenda that you can relate to some “satanic” conspiracy theory.

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  243. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Do Zionists know that they worship Satan, Reid?

    It’s not something you do accidently Ryan.

    http://www.savethemales.ca/041102.html

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  244. SGA (1,069 comments) says:

    Reid at 5:54 pm

    SGA,
    … [long rant deleted]…
    Quite frankly SGA I don’t care… [short rant deleted]

    Why do you keep telling me all this stuff? Are you dyslexic and have me and SPC confused? We look nothing alike (he’s taller, but I’m much better looking).

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  245. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Do you believe that the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is a serious real document, and not satire or a fake?

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  246. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Redi, do you think most Zionists are Jews, or are they mostly fellow Christians?

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  247. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    SGA, reid is schooling us in the alphabet, it came to him from God letter by letter so he could number and expose each and every one of the nefarious Zionists.

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  248. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Reid, yeah just as when it was demonstrated that only some Ashkenazi have Khazar ancestry, you say you do not care

    I seriously don’t care SPC and I never have. My understanding is that all Khazars are Ashkenazis. But apart from making them distinct from the tribe of Judah, which makes them “Jews who say they are but are not” I have no further interest. If there are other Askenenazis who aren’t Khazars, who cares? Because it’s not Ashkenazis who are the issue, it’s the Jews who say they are Jews but are not, and who are zionists.

    Because zionism is the political cover used by the Jews who say they are but who are not, to execute their depravity.

    That’s the point and it always has been. I’m honestly unsure why you idiots have become fixated on Ashkenazis and all I can assume is because it’s because you can’t think straight.

    Do you believe that the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is a serious real document, and not satire or a fake?

    I haven’t read it Ryan so I don’t know. If and when I do read it, what I’ll do is decide whether it makes sense based on what I see Zionists doing in the world. I understand from anecdotes that it does portray that, but I don’t know. That link was to the other book, not the protocols.

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  249. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid 6.14pm

    —————————————————————-
    SPC (4,513 comments) says:
    February 26th, 2013 at 6:52 pm
    wied, the book only covered ancient Greece and Rome – it supposedly showed the rise and fall of past civilisation to some similar pattern – thus Soviet Union could not be included. I suppose you are one of the savethemales (Henry Makow) disciples.

    Reid (15,412 comments) says:
    February 26th, 2013 at 6:56 pm
    the book only covered ancient Greece and Rome – thus Soviet Union could not be included

    How convenient.

    I suppose you are one of the savethemales (Henry Makow) disciples.

    Who?
    —————————————————————————————-

    So you are now one of his disciples? But had never heard of him last year?

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  250. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    I haven’t read it Ryan so I don’t know. If and when I do read it, what I’ll do is decide whether it makes sense based on what I see Zionists doing in the world. I understand from anecdotes that it does portray that, but I don’t know. That link was to the other book, not the protocols.

    You just gave me a link to an article by a guy who says, in that article, “In my opinion, the Protocols are a master plan for what already has largely taken place.”

    You’ve never read it? (The Protocols.)

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  251. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Redi, do you think most Zionists are Jews, or are they mostly fellow Christians?

    Lots of US Christians in the Bible Belt apparently favour zionism, but you know why? Because apparently, they want to hasten the second coming. So they encourage the Zionists in the US in order to hasten the destruction of Israel. Because they can see what the Zionist philosophy is doing to Israel.

    I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s what I’ve read and given the mentality of some of the Bible Belt, it rings true.

    But as for the real, actual zionists who say they are Jews who are not? Not one of them is a Christian SPC.

    You’ve never read it? (The Protocols.)

    No. Why?

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  252. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    tom hunter (3,968 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 5:03 pm

    As opposed to the Dominican Republic, which shares the other five eighths of the island of Hispanola and has also been a victim of US tutelage – having similar problems with a history of corruption, dictatorial thugs and violence – yet still managed to produce a GDP per capita (PPP basis) that’s almost eight times greater.

    CIA Fact Book: Dominican Republic
    CIA Fact Book: Cuba

    Population: Cuba 11,047,251 (July 2014 est.); Dominican Republic 10,349,741 (July 2014 est.)

    Maternal mortality rate: Cuba 73 deaths/100,000 live births (2010); Dominican Republic 150 deaths/100,000 live births (2010)

    Infant mortality rate: Cuba 4.7 deaths/1,000 live births; Dominican Republic 19.63 deaths/1,000 live births

    Child labor – children ages 5-14: Cuba -; Dominican Republic 180,423

    Literacy: Cuba 99.8%; Dominican Republic 90.1%

    GDP – per capita (PPP): Cuba $10,200 (2010 est.); Dominican Republic $9,700 (2013 est.)

    Population below poverty line: Cuba – ; Dominican Republic 34.4% (2010 est.)

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  253. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:
    You’ve never read it? (The Protocols.)

    No. Why?

    Because they’re a very well-known and soundly debunked piece of nonsense, and you gave me a link to an article by someone who believes that they are real.

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  254. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    So you are now one of his disciples?

    SPC, if you post a link from a site, does that mean you’re that site’s “disciple?”

    Because they’re a very well-known and soundly debunked piece of nonsense, and you gave me a link to an article by someone who believes that they are real.

    Soundly debunked by whom Ryan? The same people who “soundly” “debunk” 911? Or JFK? Or US involvement in Syria? Or Israel’s aggression toward the Palestinians? etc.

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  255. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, is Dick Cheney someone who says they are a Jew but are not – because you said before he was a real Zionist and also that this was the profile of an actual real Zionist.

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  256. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Soundly debunked by whom Ryan? The same people who “soundly” “debunk” 911?

    No. By a great many people. By pointing out the texts the author(s) of the Protocols plagiarised in creating it, for a start. More information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_elders_of_zion#Maurice_Joly

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  257. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Soundly debunked by whom Ryan? The same people who “soundly” “debunk” 911? Or JFK? Or US involvement in Syria? Or Israel’s aggression toward the Palestinians? etc.

    Sorry, you’re editing too quickly for me to keep up.

    Um… No, also none of those things. I’m very aware of Israel’s aggression toward the Palestinians. I can assure you that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are crazy nonsense, and anyone who presents them as a real document has very questionable critical thinking processes.

    For when you get around to investigating this incredibly well-known piece of racist forgery.

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  258. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    More information here:

    Ryan, afraid mate wikipedia isn’t a friend of objective truth, particularly on things Jewish. As UT pointed out the other day.

    Try to find something really really critical toward Iswael and very very sympathetic toward Palestine for example. Carefully read how they covered Operation Cast Lead, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

    It’s like quoting Fox News to get the “true” impression of the Democrats.

    Sorry. No banana.

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  259. OneTrack (3,114 comments) says:

    “Along the lines of Yoza’s comment, if you had to choose between being an average citizen in Cuba and an average citizen in Haiti, which would you choose?”

    To be a person living in “poverty”(tm) in that neolib hellhole called New Zealand?

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  260. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Because they’re a very well-known and soundly debunked piece of nonsense

    http://mailstar.net/toolkit.html

    Philip Graves, a journalist employed by The Times of London in Constantinople and Jerusalem, and a non-Jew, was the first to argue, on the basis of parallel passages in Maurice Joly’s book Dialogues in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, that the Protocols was a forgery.

    Journalism, however, is no substitute for scholarly analysis. The more scholarly treatments were begun by Israel Zangwill, extended by Herman Bernstein, then by Norman Cohn, all three being Jewish. Not all people brought up as “Jewish” remain so, so it must be noted that the first two were Zionist, and Cohn was favourably cited in Who’s Who In World Jewry.

    Ironically, one or the best arguments that the Protocols is genuine, is that one is not allowed, in public places e.g. in bookstores (other than mail-order ones), to present the case that it’s genuine. What is distinctive about the Protocols Toolkit is that it presents the arguments of both sides. I have yet to encounter a proponent of the forgery case who is prepared to allow the other side to present its case too – e.g. who is prepared to place a link to this Protocols Toolkit.

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  261. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Can you just do something for me. I want you to comment the following:

    “I swear before God that I have never read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion”.

    A simple thing to do for someone who is telling the truth and is not afraid to say so before God. It will take 60 seconds of your time. Humour me.

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  262. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    1. Multiple witnesses say they saw molten steel.

    How did they test and analyze the molten ” steel “/substance to verify

    2. One witness said it was like being in a foundry.

    Is this what we call anecdotal – a subjective interpretation not a objective empirically scientific one.

    3. A professor of physics said there was molten steel.

    Was he present or is he relying on again ,anecdotal accounts and subjective interpretations .?

    4. A sample of concrete was found that had been fused with steel.

    The substance the 9/11 commission identified as slag and who said it was actually pure steel.?

    5. The extraordinarily high temperatures were consistent with the presence of molten steel.

    They were in the vicinity of 700-800 degrees C hardly enough to melt steel.

    6. There is a photo of a steel beam with molten metal dripping off it.

    Which one exactly.? Is that one with the excavator gripping the hot metal beam.? If so that photo was taken at WTC 5 not WTC 1 or 2.

    While your at it can you assist in finding a whsitleblower involved in the alleged cover up on 9/11.?
    If not, why not.?
    The current whereabouts of the 200 or so passengers and crews.?
    If not, why not,?

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  263. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    UglyTruth,

    If anything, the best argument for a Zionist conspiracy would be that people like yourself are being paid to go online and act like you believe that the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is a real document, in order to taint and undermine the efforts of those of us who genuinely want Israel to stop fucking over the Palestinians.

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  264. Viking2 (11,488 comments) says:

    So after having wasted nost of the ink on GD today did yu’all have fun?

    Seriouslythough.
    What about the Warriors debacle?

    Here is an observation for you.

    Watson bought it off Tainui in 2000. What have the warriors done since?
    everything Watson touches turns to shit for everyone but Watson.

    Glen seems to attract the same issue.

    Why would anyone join the Warriors?

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  265. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, your attempt to provide meaning to a passage in the book of Revelation – regarding those who say they are Jews but are not but are of the synagogue of Satan, is not convincing.

    Do you have any bible scholarship backing up your connection of this Jewish “religious group” (synagogue) with one separate from the House of Judah. Jewish groups take converts from any group in the world. Once Jews there is inter-marriage. Converts to Judaism do not remain a people distinct from other Jews. Even the Khazars, who were a distinct regional people for a time. And during that period they were not Zionists.

    And the connection between “synagogue of Satan” and Zionism is also unconvincing. All nationalism comes at a price – contention with rival nationalism. This is nothing particular to Jews.

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  266. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    If anything, the best argument for a Zionist conspiracy would be that people like yourself are being paid to go online and act like you believe that the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is a real document, in order to taint and undermine the efforts of those of us who genuinely want Israel to stop fucking over the Palestinians.

    That argument is nothing more than an assumption, better arguments are based on known historical facts.

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  267. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Reid, is Dick Cheney someone who says they are a Jew but are not – because you said before he was a real Zionist and also that this was the profile of an actual real Zionist.

    SPC it appears you haven’t learned the logic 101 lesson I gave above, yet.

    Sigh.

    Just because all “A’s” are “B,” does not repeat not repeat not repeat (just for you) NOT, mean that all “B’s” are “A.”

    This is what I actually said:

    But if they’re a real zionist like Cheney and the NPAC crowd, then they’re evil.

    Most of the PNAC crowd are in fact dual citizens, of both Israel and the US. Here’s a list

    http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html

    Cheney isn’t. But this doesn’t mean he’s not a Zionist.

    The enquiring mind might ask themselves precisely why the US makes this singular exception to its normal rule whereby citizens of the US are normally required to give up their home citizenship status.

    But I know you’re not about to do that, SPC.

    Reid,

    Can you just do something for me. I want you to comment the following:

    I swear before God that I have never read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion”.

    Ryan, I solemnly swear before Almighty God that I have never read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

    I’m happy to swear that in court on a Bible too Ryan.

    Why?

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  268. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    PREDICTIONS THAT DIDN’T PAN OUT

    “Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons”. -Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949

    “I think there is a world market for maybe five computers”. -Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

    “We’ll never equip our computers with a mouse”. – IBM

    “Japanese auto industry has poor chances to ever reach a significant market share here in the USA”. -Business Week, 1968

    “But what is it good for?” -Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip

    “640K ought to be enough for anybody”. -Bill Gates, 1981

    “The world’s climate is changing. Of that scientists are firmly convinced… sooner or later, a major cooling of the climate is widely considered inevitable”. -New York Times article, May 21, 1975

    “The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?” -David Sarnoff’s associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s

    “We don’t like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out”. -Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962

    “Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau”. -Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929.

    “There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home”. -Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977

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  269. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Reid, your attempt to provide meaning to a passage in the book of Revelation – regarding those who say they are Jews but are not but are of the synagogue of Satan, is not convincing.

    And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
    1 Ch 21:1

    The Zionists used the holocaust as a pretext to get Jews to shift from Europe to Palestine. Central to this was the mantra of six million jews being at risk of death or persecution or six million of them dying in Europe. Numbering Israel was generally forbidden, so the idea that the end of the exile of Israel would by brought about by disobedience is a nonsense.

    Also there is the numerical association with the number of the beast. Six million is one six and six zeroes, or two thirds of the sixes of 666. The fraction of two thirds fits into the sixth column of the Hebrew alphanumeric grid, with the top two positions having real values wile the third one remains empty. If all the positions in the column contained values then the values would sum to 666.

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  270. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, you have said Jews are a religious and cultural group. And that Zionism is a political group.

    Do all Zionists claim to be Jews?

    Can a person be a Zionist and a real Jew?

    If not, what about being a Zionist means one is no longer a Jew?

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  271. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    Okay, Reid, thanks.

    As for why, you just seemed very zealous in defending the veracity of a document you’ve never read.

    Do you believe that there are racist people out there who invent things to incite hatred against ethnic groups?

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  272. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    That argument is nothing more than an assumption, better arguments are based on known historical facts.

    Just what someone paid by Zionists would say.

    It is historical fact that your racist conspiracy rantings undermine the efforts of anti-Zionists and ultimately support Israel’s abuse of its indigenous people.

    But you knew that. It’s probably in your contract.

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  273. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    UT , why should a Jews account like Norman Cohn be any less reliable than say a known falsifier of history like David Irving.?
    Your argument re the non availability of the Protocols in public libraries etc that attests to its reliability is a highly specious one.
    and certainly readily and copiously available on the internet.
    In the past it was certainly readily available in a variety of far right wing bookshops and organizations, both here and internationally.

    T”hat argument is nothing more than an assumption, better arguments are based on known historical facts.”

    What known historical facts precisely.?

    As a matter of interest Sir Isaac newton was heavily into Biblical prophecy and was convinced that Louis the Sin King was the Anti Christ now believed by some to be Pres Obama. LOL

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  274. wikiriwhis business (4,019 comments) says:

    A Guy Hung An Offensive Sign Around His Neck To Make A Solid Point. And … It Worked.

    http://www.upworthy.com/a-guy-hung-an-offensive-sign-around-his-neck-to-make-a-solid-point-and-it-worked?c=ufb1

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  275. wikiriwhis business (4,019 comments) says:

    While your at it can you assist in finding a whsitleblower involved in the alleged cover up on 9/11.?
    If not, why not.?

    The 9/11 commission was as trustworthy as the Warren Commission

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  276. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    UglyTruth (2,867 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 7:11 pm

    Why do you believe in seriously weird stuff ,?

    Hearing about Holocaust denial compelled former SS-Rottenführer Oskar Gröning to publicly speak about what he witnessed at Auschwitz, and denounce Holocaust deniers,[154] stating:

    I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened because I was there.”

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  277. wikiriwhis business (4,019 comments) says:

    “As a matter of interest Sir Isaac newton was heavily into Biblical prophecy and was convinced that Louis the Sin King was the Anti Christ now believed by some to be Pres Obama. LOL”

    We now know we are in the last days because Daniel tells us knowledge will run to fro around the Earth. Hence the computer age.

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  278. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Can a person be a Zionist and a real Jew?

    If not, what about being a Zionist means one is no longer a Jew?

    SPC, Zionism is a political movement set-up by the Jews who say they are Jews but who are not. It’s a political movement not a religious movement but many people conflate the two because in their hallucination, Jews are the chosen people. And they are, those Jews from the Bible that is. But the Zionist Jews are not the Jews from the Bible.

    The Zionist objective is not to save and build Israel but to destroy it. The Zionists in power in Israel do everything they can to be nasty to the Arabs and do everything they can to discourage the Israeli people to not bow before God.

    Do you seriously think God approves of the treatment of the Palestinians? For example.

    God gave the Israeli’s a chance which is why they were so successful in the Six-Day war. He wanted to give them an opportunity to repent.

    But they haven’t. Tel Aviv and most of Israel is a cesspit of vice and depravity, promoted by the Zionist leadership.

    All this has been disguised in the veneer of defense of Israel.

    Ryan and SPC, I sense you’re both serious students of truth.

    Accordingly I advise you both to go to the wayback machine and google senderberl.com, get the last full version it archived and read the entire site. And get Joseph Ehrlich’s books and read them. That will give you an education in these matters that you won’t find elsewhere.

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  279. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    Why do you believe in seriously weird stuff?

    Isn’t it bloody obvious?

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  280. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid,

    “But if they’re a real zionist like Cheney and the NPAC crowd, then they’re evil.”
    “But as for the real, actual zionists who say they are Jews who are not? Not one of them is a Christian SPC.”
    “Most of the PNAC crowd are in fact dual citizens, of both Israel and the US.”
    “Cheney isn’t. But this doesn’t mean he’s not a Zionist”

    So what you meant to say was that

    1. many in the PNAC crowd are Zionists with dual citizenship.
    2. the Zionists who say they are Jews are not Christians.
    3. there are other people who do not say they are Jews, who might also be Zionists (agreed anyone with a Jewish grandparent is eligible for Israeli citizenship, but only a Jewish mother gives Jewish identity status from birth).

    How is Cheney a Zionist?

    Are you are now finally saying noting that Zionist is not equivalent with those who say they Jews and who are not, then who are the Zionists? Define what makes them thus?

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  281. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    I’d still like an answer to that question, Reid. Do you believe that there are racist people out there who invent things about ethnic groups in order to incite hatred against those groups?

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  282. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    As for why, you just seemed very zealous in defending the veracity of a document you’ve never read.

    No I’m simply explaining other documents I’ve read. One more or less makes no difference. The protocols aren’t the lodestone.

    Do you believe that there are racist people out there who invent things to incite hatred against ethnic groups?

    Of course and they do it all the time. The question is: who are those groups in this particular case? During the Cold War, Russian people firmly believed they were defending against an aggressive Western coalition and the Western people believed the precise same thing. Who was correct in that case?

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  283. Viking2 (11,488 comments) says:

    Italian Grandma’s Advice

    A young Italian girl was going on a date.

    Her Nanna said:

    ‘Sita here Ana letame tella you about dis-a younga boy.
    He’s agonna try Ana kiss you, you are agonna likea dat, but don’t let him do dat.
    He’s agonna try Ana kiss your breasts, you are agonna likea dat too, but don’ta let him do dat eeda.
    But mosta important, he’s agonna try Ana lay on topa you, you are agonna really likea dat, but don’ta let him do dat for sure.
    Doing data willa disgraza our family.

    With that bit of advice, the granddaughter went on her date.
    The next day she told grandma that her date went just like she had predicted:
    ‘And Nanna, I didn’t let him disgrace our family as you said..

    When he tried to lay on top of me, I just rolled him over got on top of him, and
    Disgraced HIS family!’

    Nanna fainted!!

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  284. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis , answer the question please.Can you explain why no whsitleblower has emerged from 9/11 given the enormous number of personnel that would be needed to be involved in such a cover up.?
    Again, the known whereabouts of the missing 200 passengers and crews from flights 11. ,175.77 and 93.?

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  285. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Get your teeth into this one Ugly. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3jkt8wwxmpca2x/UT%209.jpg

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  286. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Do all Zionists claim to be Jews?

    No, some claim to be Christians.

    Can a person be a Zionist and a real Jew?

    Yes if they are Jewish by culture.
    No if the are true Jews in the sense of holding to the principles of the Torah.
    The first commandment of the Mosaic covenant prohibits having rulers or judges who oppose the Torah.
    http://www.abidemiracles.com/555701.htm

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  287. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Reid (15,419 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 7:34 pm

    Reid, I believe the West won in the end if you look at what happened in 1991 with the Soviet Union going belly up./ imploding.

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  288. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    @nasska

    I’m not saying it’s aliens…
    but it’s aliens.

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  289. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    So what you meant to say was that

    No what I meant to say was what I said. I’ve had a gutsful of people like Shawn and mm pretending I’m saying something I didn’t, please don’t you start.

    How is Cheney a Zionist?

    Fucken hell. I’ve already told you, Zionism is a political organisation not a religious one. Therefore why the fuck are you acting all surprised if someone from another denomination belongs?

    I’m not going to recite Cheney’s record on PNAC or on Israel when you can look it up for yourself.

    Define what makes them [Zionists] thus?

    I GAVE YOU A LINK AT THE START OF THIS CONVERSATION. HERE IT IS AGAIN. GO AND READ IT (AND WEEP – IF YOU HAVE ANY HUMANITY)

    http://iamthewitness.com/

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  290. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, are you claiming that Jews can only exist legitimately as Jews as a religious people and that any attempt to form a political movement of Jews or be part of the national government of Jews disqualifies a person from being a Jew?

    And thus Zionists can no longer be Jews? And thus become those who say they are Jews but who are not?

    Does the same rule apply for Christians and Moslems?

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  291. publicwatchdog (2,613 comments) says:

    In my considered opinion, Minister for Justice Judith Collins is quite simply CORRUPT and should be sacked.

    FORTHWITH.

    New Zealand ‘perceived to be the least corrupt country in the world’ (along with Denmark, according to Transparency International’s 2013 ‘Corruption Perception Index’.

    What a load of steaming BULLSH*T!

    Seen this?

    Where’s the Taxpayers’ Union on this one?

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/business/qoa/50HansQ_20140410_00000012/12-justice-minister%E2%80%94visit-to-china

    12. Justice, Minister—Visit to China

    [Sitting date: 10 April 2014. Volume:697;Page:15. Text is subject to correction.]

    12. GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) to the Minister of Justice: Does she know the name and employing department of the Chinese official that she had dinner with in Beijing on 20 October 2013 on her ministerial visit to China; if so, is the reason that she has refused to tell the House that information because she believes it is not in the public interest to do so?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice) : I have no ministerial responsibility for that matter.

    Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This question was submitted in the normal way through the Clerk’s Office and to you. It was accepted, therefore the Minister must answer the question. She has ministerial responsibility.

    Mr SPEAKER: Yes. I want to draw to the Minister’s attention the Standing Orders and Speakers’ rulings that say she has a duty to answer a question. That answer is far from helpful to the House. She can answer it in anyway she likes, but to simply say she has no responsibility when the question has been authenticated and processed to be placed on the Order Paper is, I think, most unsatisfactory. I will invite the member to repeat the question.

    Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What then does that do for the interpretation of Speaker’s ruling 153/1, which basically says that “The primary condition for asking a question of a Minister is that the Minister has ministerial responsibility for the subject matter of the question. If there is no ministerial responsibility, there can be no question. An opinion that is sought from a Minister must relate to a matter for which the Minister has responsibility.” Speaker’s ruling 153/3, on the same page, goes on to say: “The Speaker has no way of knowing which Minister is responsible, in the role of Speaker.” What I am concerned about here is that the only person who can fully know where ministerial responsibility stops and starts is the Minister themselves. If they say, in fact, they have no ministerial responsibility for that, in the past there has been a decision made that the public would make a judgment about that, not the Opposition.

    Mr SPEAKER: The difficulty I have with that argument from the member is that there has been a series of questions now for some weeks and the Minister has on many occasions addressed the questions to my satisfaction. So I do not think at this stage she can now claim she has not got ministerial responsibility. I do not accept that. I can equally refer the Hon Gerry Brownlee to rulings, particularly to Speaker’s ruling 173/1. It is a relatively lengthy ruling, but I will read it for the benefit of the Minister: “A Minister must give an answer ‘if it can be given consistently with the public interest’. The Minister is instructed under [Standing Order 383(1)] to consider the public interest in framing a reply. In considering consistency with the public interest, the Minister may address such principles as privacy, commercial sensitivity, or national security. But, ultimately, the judgment of whether a particular reply is consistent with the public interest is for the Minister to make. It is not a matter for the Speaker to judge. Nor is it a matter for the member asking the question to suggest that because the member considers the matter to be a matter of public interest, the question should be answered in a particular way.” I am going to ask the member to repeat the question.

    Grant Robertson: Does she know the name and employing department of the Chinese official whom she had dinner with in Beijing on 20 October 2013 on her ministerial visit to China; if so, is the reason that she has refused to tell the House that information because she believes it is not in the public interest to do so?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: It was a private dinner. I have no ministerial responsibility to explain it.

    Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In your ruling on the Minister’s first attempt to answer this, you made mention of the fact that we have had a number of questions about this. You also granted an urgent debate, in fact, around these matters because, as was put in the question, this was a ministerial visit paid for by the taxpayer. For the Minister to now decide that she does not feel like answering the questions is not acceptable. It is a breach of the Standing Orders.

    Mr SPEAKER: No, I cannot assist the member to that extent. It is certainly not helpful for the Minister to take this attitude, but I want to refer to two further Speakers’ rulings in this regard. Speaker’s ruling 173/3 says: “It is not obligatory on a Minister to answer a question. It is certainly customary but there is no sufficient reason for saying it is binding.” Furthermore, Speakers’ ruling 173/4 says: “The Speaker cannot force a Minister to give an answer to a question and has no responsibility for the quality …”. I think it is a very unsatisfactory answer that has been given by the Minister. I am not responsible for that. This House and the public will judge that for themselves. But I invite the member to now continue with his supplementary questions, and I give him one additional supplementary question as well.

    Grant Robertson: Did she discuss with the directors of Oravida what the role of the Chinese border official was before she left New Zealand?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: It was a private dinner. I have no ministerial responsibility for it.

    Hon Trevor Mallard: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Sorry, I thought my colleague was going to take a point of order. It was a very direct question, and it asked about an action to do with a particular individual, and it had to do with before she left New Zealand. It was nothing to do with something that actually occurred at the dinner; it was a question about whether she received any advice on this matter from the directors of the company before she left New Zealand, and it has been established previously in the House that she had discussions about this dinner before she left the country.

    Hon Gerry Brownlee: Speaking to the point of order, Speaker’s ruling 151(2) is also quite instructive here, inasmuch as it says: “The Minister primarily concerned is presumed to be the person to decide whether it is a question related to that portfolio or whether it is misdirected.”

    Hon David Parker: Speaking to the point of order—

    Mr SPEAKER: No, I do not need assistance on that point. I think today we have moved well past that with my saying that this question has been raised in various forms now for some considerable amount of time. At this stage of the proceedings, for the Minister of Justice to now claim there is no ministerial responsibility is, in my mind, as I have said to this House, a very unsatisfactory answer. I invite the member Grant Robertson to ask his supplementary question.

    Grant Robertson: Did the New Zealand ambassador tell her that he did not think it was appropriate—

    Hon Annette King: No, no, the other one.

    Grant Robertson: Oh, sorry, do you want the previous question?

    Mr SPEAKER: I am inviting the member to repeat his other question.

    Grant Robertson: Sorry, Mr Speaker, I did not hear you say that. Did she discuss with the directors of Oravida what the role of the Chinese border official was before she left New Zealand?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: I took part in a private dinner. I do not have ministerial responsibility for that.

    Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister has previously admitted in this House that she should have made reference to this in her report to Cabinet after she made her visit to China. What is the remedy for the Opposition in respect of serious allegations where the Minister will just not answer any questions?

    Mr SPEAKER: The remedy available is for the member Grant Robertson to continue his line of questioning. I cannot force the Minister to answer the question. I am not responsible for the answer, but, as I said earlier, people will judge the answers for themselves.

    Grant Robertson: Did she tell the New Zealand news media that she should have put this dinner in her formal trip report to Cabinet, thereby making it a matter of ministerial responsibility?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: Actually, I should not have, because the Cabinet Manual makes it very clear that only matters of importance should, in fact, be put in. In fact, when I had a look at the manual, I noticed that actually having dinner is not something that anyone would consider a matter of national importance, unlike that member might think it is.

    Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was a specific one. I asked whether she told the New Zealand news media—

    Mr SPEAKER: Order! On this occasion, I am ruling that the Minister has actually addressed that question. [Interruption] Order! I invite the member at this stage to continue his supplementary questions.

    Grant Robertson: Did the New Zealand ambassador tell her that he did not think it was appropriate for him to attend this dinner?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: I have no recollection of the ambassador saying that to me.

    Grant Robertson: Did Stone Shi ask her not to name the official who was at the dinner?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: This was a private dinner and I have no ministerial responsibility for it.

    Grant Robertson: Why was she prepared to say that the official at the dinner was from a border control agency but she is not prepared to say which border control agency?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: I advised the media because that was the advice I received from the Prime Minister’s office.

    Grant Robertson: Was the Prime Minister wrong to give her that advice?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: One day that member might realise that Prime Ministers are always right.

    Grant Robertson: Was the senior Chinese border official at the dinner someone who could influence whether or not Oravida’s products could enter into China?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: It was a private dinner. I have got no ministerial responsibility for it.

    Grant Robertson: Supplementary question?

    Mr SPEAKER: I think in actual fact the member may well have found that his number of supplementary questions has expired.

    Grant Robertson: Given the ridiculous answers I have been getting, I seek leave to be allowed to ask one more question.

    Mr SPEAKER: No, I do not think seeking leave would be a good idea for the member. Because there was some confusion earlier, I will allow one more question.

    Grant Robertson: Can she confirm that she believes she has no obligation to the New Zealand taxpayer to tell them the name of a senior Chinese official that she met with along with her husband’s fellow company directors at a dinner arranged before she left New Zealand, despite taxpayers shelling out $30,000 for her to go on that trip?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: I have no obligation to discuss a private dinner not paid for by the taxpayer and at absolutely no expense to the taxpayer.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

    Attendee: 2009 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference
    Attendee: 2010 Transparency International Anti-Corruption Conference
    Attendee: 2013 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference

    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate (polled 4th campaigning against corrupt corporate control of the Auckland region)

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz

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  292. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, any particular article on that site define Zionist? In particular one that connects the term Zionist (as you do) to those who say that they are Jews but are not?

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  293. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    “O’Ryan,” asked the pharmacist, “did that mudpack I gave you
    improve your wife’s appearance?”

    “It did surely,” replied O’Ryan, “but it keeps fallin’ off!”

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  294. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    Reid, are you claiming that Jews can only exist legitimately as Jews as a religious people and that any attempt to form a political movement of Jews or be part of the national government of Jews disqualifies a person from being a Jew?

    No I’m saying that Zionism is an evil plot to destroy Jews but many to most Jews don’t see that and hallucinate, like you also seem to, that Zionism is actually favourable and beneficial to Jews.

    The thing that Jews have lost their way on and which the senderberl reference I gave you earlier will explicate is that their first duty is to God and that is missing from their current equation. Courtesy of the Zionist smokescreen which casts a pall over the true nation of Judah.

    Reid, any particular article on that site define Zionist? In particular one that connects the term Zionist (as you do) to those who say that they are Jews but are not?

    http://ia600508.us.archive.org/3/items/PawnsInTheGame/Carr.-.Pawns.in.the.Game.international.conspiracy.exposed.1958.pdf

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  295. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    That’s a nice little, succinct comment you have just made Penny. :)

    Are you still sitting, quietly, in your nice wee warm abode while you made it or are the Super City Bailiffs knocking at your door ? :)

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  296. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    nasska.

    :lol:

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  297. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Any truth to the rumours that she’s moving into a tent erected on Mayor Brown’s front lawn JB? :)

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  298. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth,

    a very brief summary of Revelation.

    666. The 6th commandment is not to murder. Then there are the ways of death that are not called murder, but by the sermon on the mount standard are to be associated with murder. The horses and riders – related to war, famine and disease.

    Often war leads to famine which leads to disease, thus blessed are those of the way of the city of peace.

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  299. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    SPC
    I’d imagine Ugly and Reid think that Revelation is more directly prophetical than that.

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  300. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    She may become his live in Masseuse at the council provided Gym nasska.

    God knows, she has the arms of a Masseuse! :)

    Think of the miles of barbed wire a woman like her could knit if she had started all those years ago! :)

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  301. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    One suspects that Penny is counting on this being an election year. And during the campaign the PM will present a then homeless Penny with some new social housing established by some charity group with subsidy from the government.

    She will be the older version of the girl used for that election year photo op back in 2008.

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  302. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    Are you still sitting, quietly, in your nice wee warm abode while you made it or are the Super City Bailiffs knocking at your door ?

    The late great Stanley Unwin:

    Are you all sitty comftybold two-square on your botty? Then I’ll begin.

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  303. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    nasska BTW, thanks for your comment last night pointing out to the useful morons the distinction I make between you know who and you know what.

    I appreciated that.

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  304. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    “One day that member might realise that Prime Ministers are always right.” Judith Collins

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  305. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Ugly
    I know you replied in the negative to my question whether you are a freeman on the land. I’m sure you’ll forgive me, but your line of quasi-legal reasoning seems awfully close to that employed by the freemen. Could you explain where your views differ?

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  306. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    And they never leak by definition UT! :) ….Helen Clark.

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  307. Viking2 (11,488 comments) says:

    Two Blondes With Hammers….

    Lynn & Judy were doing some carpenter work
    On a Habitat for Humanity House.
    Lynn was nailing down house siding,
    Would reach into her nail
    Pouch, pull out a nail & either toss it
    Over her shoulder or nail it in.

    Judy, figuring this was worth looking into, asked, ‘
    Why are you throwing those nails away?’
    Lynn explained, ‘When I pull a nail out of my pouch,
    About half of them have the head on the wrong end
    & I throw them away.’
    Judy got completely upset & yelled,
    ‘You moron! Those nails aren’t defective!
    They’re for the other side of the house!’

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  308. Sofia (858 comments) says:

    Penny, why does Judith Collins getting tired of Labour grinding on week after week, too stupid to give a dead horse away, and finally telling the little fat one to get fucked, make her corrupt?

    You just have a transparent sort of gut-feeling do you? :-)

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  309. Viking2 (11,488 comments) says:

    A blonde was driving home after a game & got caught in a really bad
    Hailstorm.. Her car was covered with dents, so the next day she took it
    To a repair shop. The shop owner saw that she was a blonde, so he
    Decided to have some fun… He told her to go home and blow into the
    Tail pipe really hard, & all the dents would pop out.

    So, the blonde went home, got down on her hands & knees & started
    Blowing into her tailpipe.. Nothing happened.. So she blew a little
    Harder, & still nothing happened.

    Her blonde roommate saw her & asked, ‘What are you doing?’ The first
    Blonde told her how the repairman had instructed her to blow into the
    Tail pipe in order to get all the dents to pop out.
    The roommate rolled her eyes & said, ‘Uh, like hello!
    You need to roll up the windows first.’

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  310. Viking2 (11,488 comments) says:

    A blonde & her husband are lying in bed
    Listening to the next door neighbour’s dog..
    It has been in the backyard barking for hours & hours.
    The blonde jumps up out of bed and says,
    “I’ve had enough of this”.
    She goes downstairs.

    The blonde finally comes back up to bed
    And her husband says, “The dog is still barking,
    What have you been doing?”

    The blonde says,
    “I put the dog in our backyard,
    let’s see how THEY like it!

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  311. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ UglyTruth (2,870 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 8:27 pm

    Don’t get too excited, she’s only preparing the way for when she is Prime Minister…

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  312. Viking2 (11,488 comments) says:

    Bill and his wife Blanche

    Bill and his wife Blanche go to the state fair every year, And every year Bill would say, ” Blanche, I’d like to ride in that helicopter ”

    Blanche always replied,

    ” I know Bill, but that helicopter ride is fifty bucks, And fifty bucks is fifty bucks! ”

    One year Bill and Blanche went to the fair, and Bill said, ” Blanche, I’m

    85 years old.

    If I don’t ride that helicopter, I might never get another chance ”

    To this, Blanche replied,

    ” Bill that helicopter ride is fifty bucks, and fifty bucks is fifty bucks ”

    The pilot overheard the couple and said, ” Folks I’ll make you a deal.

    I’ll take the both of you for a ride. If you can stay quiet for the entire ride and don’t say a word I won’t charge you a penny!

    But if you say one word it’s fifty dollars. ”

    Bill and Blanche agreed and up they went.

    The pilot did all kinds of fancy maneuvers, but not a word was heard.

    He did his daredevil tricks over and over again, But still not a word…

    When they landed, the pilot turned to Bill and said, ” By golly, I did everything I could to get you to yell out, but you didn’t.

    I’m impressed! ”

    Bill replied,

    ” Well, to tell you the truth

    I almost said something when Blanche fell out, But you know, Fifty bucks is fifty b

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  313. Viking2 (11,488 comments) says:

    Judith. The Nats are far to old boys network types to allow a female PM.
    Well of course that may not always apply to some women who are mere males.

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  314. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, so Zionism is a plot to destroy Jews? And so cunning that it got Jews to take it up and adopt it as their own political nationalism?

    ben Gurion thought that a homeland was the way out of persecution of Jews. And that anti-Semites would be defeated by the creation of a national homeland. Whereas you think that national homeland is the means to destroy the Jews.

    Sounds like you and he play the same game.

    The irony about your support for the religious Jew, with the focus on their faith, is that they are the source of much of the settlement in the West Bank and the political support for expansion of this.

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  315. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Sofia (774 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 8:34 pm
    Penny, why does Judith Collins getting tired of Labour grinding on week after week,

    because she knows that people are listening and thinking “Yeah, why won’t she say what went on”?

    Especially when they remember the PM saying, “if you are not doing anything wrong, it won’t matter if people know what you are saying and doing”,

    In this case they’ve decided the PM is a wise man – :-)

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  316. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “So let’s not have anymore lies from you, SGA, Shawn and mm. Educate yourself. You’re only making complete fools of yourself.

    Good Lord you and Ugky are arrogant wankers.

    You don’t get to decide what we can and cannot think, nor can you just respond with infantile non-arguments that we are lying simply if we disgree with your and Ugly’s whackjob nuttery, on any subject.

    If you and Ugly are too infantile to take being challenged, go somewhere else.

    In the meantime, both of you need to grow up.

    Your support for Islamic fascists who kill Jews AND Jewish children means you have no moral highground.

    Your distinctions between who you think are Jews and who are not is unprovable and frankly absurd conspiracy theory used to support your attempt to wash your hands of the crimes of racisim and anti-Semitism, and I have studied enough real Jewish history to know that your theory is bullshit.

    You just don’t have the guts to admit it. I have slightly more respect for skinhead nutters with swastika tattoos. They at least don’t try to pretend they are anything other than what they are or throw childish temper tantrums if they are challenged.

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  317. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Meanwhile away from the parliamentary sideshow that 0.000001% of the population of Godzone actually give a shit about JK is posing with the Royals and popping back over for a one-on-one with Barrack Judith! :)

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  318. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (13,305 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 8:46 pm

    Actually, I’m not the least bit worried what JK is doing today, or tomorrow – I am a little concerned about what he might be doing on 21st September, but even then, its not a high priority in my life. I am more concerned about teaching my grandchildren to be the very best they can be, whilst they still think grandma is the best thing they’ve got in their lives…

    I’m really lucky to live in a country that allows me to think like that, and one which I know, that whatever happens, the sun will come up on 21st September and continue to every day, regardless of which bunch get in…

    (the writer of this message takes no responsibility for the vomit on your keyboard that might result from a sudden influx of ‘touchy feely emotions’ :P )

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  319. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Who can honestly envisage the Normandy landings being undertaken by the current mish mash of Gods knows what which makes up the US Army?

    Yeah, it’s been proven time and time again that conscript armies beat professional ones hands-down. No, wait, that’s completely the wrong way round! Only a deranged, gibbering loudmouth with a serious drinking problem and a contemptible lack of respect for serving military personnel could think that! Oh, right…

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  320. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    Never fear Judith. All your little grandsprogs will be far better off under the leadership of a family man like JK than they would be under the leadership of an egotistical weirdo like Silent, teamed with a dropkick like AussieGinga, teamed with a racist like Hone, teamed with a sad old drunkard like Winston.

    I of course could be entirely wrong and good, sensible government could arise out of a collection of losers like that! :)

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  321. Sofia (858 comments) says:

    Judith, although it is only marginally important, do you think regarding Coolins responses, reading the first few comments, that Mr Speaker and Gerry Brownlee were not already primed to argue about the question and whether it should have been allowed to start with. It was likely discussed earlier. And, supposedly being on a final warning from Key, Collins would be reasonably careful how she answered, and had probably checked that out too.
    Robertson should give it away.
    Probably needs some grandchildren.

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  322. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    This almost makes an old hater and wrecker like me proud to consider black things with Koru’s and other jigaboo stuff as a suitable emblem for NZ! :)

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/9926708/Stunning-timelapse-shows-Air-NZs-new-787-9

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  323. publicwatchdog (2,613 comments) says:

    Ok Kiwibloggers – have you seen this?

    http://action.ae911truth.org/p/salsa/web/common/public/signup?signup_page_KEY=7507

    The AE911Truth Petition:

    TO THE MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND OF THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

    Please Take Notice That:

    On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 – specifically the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.
    We believe there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that might have been the actual cause of the destruction of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and Building 7.

    Sincerely,

    The Undersigned
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Please check the boxes which apply to you, if any:

    Active RSV Military Aerospace Engineer AIA AIA Chapter Head
    Attorney Chemist Demolition DHS Counter Terrorism
    Engineer Prof Explosive Explo Demo FAIA Architect
    911 Family Member Firefighter Fire Prot Eng High Rise Arch
    Info Tech / Web Dev Journalist Law Enforce Media Profession
    Medical Prof Metallurgist Fed Empl Other Govt Empl
    Phd Physicist Pilot Professor
    Scientist Struct Eng Student Veteran
    Witness WTC Tenant Fundraising / Telemarketing / Sales Human Resources / Volunteer Recruitment
    Teaching Not College Prof Writer / Editor / Proofreader

    Submitting this form indicates confirmation that you are age 18 or older. We will edit all publicly displayed content for spelling, grammar, and relevance to topic.

    Please confirm your email address is: or correct it above. Watch for an email from us to verify your occupation/credentials in order to display you on our site. Thank you!
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Architect and Engineer Signatories (2,181)

    View/Download/Print the Petition with 2,000 Architect and Engineers

    The architects and engineers below have signed the Petition demanding a new investigation into the destruction of all 3 World Trade Center skyscrapers on 9/11.
    Sign Petition » – or – View Petition Text
    A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    Check for yourselves the names and qualifications of the 2,181 architects and engineers who have signed the above-mentioned petition.

    I respectfully suggest you check for yourselves other information on this website.

    (If you dare! )

    Penny Bright

    Advanced Trade
    Sheetmetal Engineering

    Welding Tutor for 9 years at Manukau Institute of Technology Auckland

    PS: If you really do believe that the heat from burning airline fuel (kerosene) can melt steel – then ask yourselves how come
    when you light a kerosene heater – it doesn’t melt??

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  324. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (13,306 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 9:11 pm

    Actually my little ‘grandsprogs’ will be okay regardless of who gets in because I had a very astute great grandfather who believed that family was the most important thing, and that governments come and go, and policies change, and the countries fortunes are won and lost, but if you look after your family, and protect it by making sure your ‘business’ cannot be influenced by whatever circus is running the joint, then the sun will continue to shine. And although there may be a few cloudy days, providing each generation acts in the best interest of the next generation, then we will be okay. He’s been dead almost 120 years, and so far he hasn’t been wrong.

    I am not stupid enough to believe it will always be that way and that one day influences totally beyond the control of any one person, or government will burst that bubble, but for now I’m happy to accept that I don’t need to kiss any politicians butt, because in this great country of ours, I have the freedom to organise my life, so I can take care of myself.

    I just wish more would put less emphasis on the politics and realise that personal responsibility cannot be replaced by a good government.

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  325. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    “Welding Tutor for 9 years at Manukau Institute of Technology Auckland”

    Now I know where those big strong biceps came from!

    Chipping away at the slag! :)

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  326. Johnboy (16,651 comments) says:

    ‘I had a very astute great grandfather who believed…etc….

    Are you telling us that great grandad set up a family trust Judith?

    Shame on you and your family using a filthy capitalist trick like that to opt out of fair taxes that support the less fortunate amongst us! :)

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  327. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    Russian authorities withheld information on Boston attack, report says.

    “The Russian government declined to provide American authorities with information about one of the Boston Marathon bombing suspects two years before the attack, which likely would have led to more extensive scrutiny of the suspect, according to a published report.

    The New York Times, citing an inspector general’s review of how American intelligence and law enforcement agencies could have prevented the deadly bombing last April that claimed three lives and wounded hundreds, reported that Russian authorities told the FBI in 2011 that Tamerlan Tsarnaev “was a follower of radical Islam.”

    But after an initial investigation by FBI agents in Boston, the Russians declined several bureau requests for additional information they had about Tsarnaev, who was killed in a shootout with police days after the attack.

    The new report found that the Russians shared the additional intelligence — which included a telephone conversation intercepted by Russian officials between Tsarnaev and his mother in which they discussed Islamic jihad — only after the bombing, the Times reported.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/10/russian-authorities-withheld-information-on-boston-attack-report-says/

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  328. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “Ok Kiwibloggers – have you seen this?”

    Yes, we have seen quite a lot of mental illness and narcissistic personality disorder lately Penny. People who demand that other’s switch their brains off and agree with their delusions, and throw temper tantrums if they are challenged. People who think the drivers licence rules do not apply to them. And people who think rates are only for other people to pay.

    And whadya know. They are all 911 truther nuts.

    Did someone leave the door to an asylum open?

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  329. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    ben Gurion thought that a homeland was the way out of persecution of Jews. And that anti-Semites would be defeated by the creation of a national homeland. Whereas you think that national homeland is the means to destroy the Jews.

    They set it up, they knock it down SPC. The price for America coming into WWI to save the British from defeat was the Balfour Declaration.

    The evil satanic Zionists then worked with Hitler to populate “Zion,” after giving Hitler the ammunition he needed to convince the German people that they lost WWI because of the Jewish betrayal, directly engendering the hatred in WWII.

    The evil satanic Zionists then populate the Israeli leadership apart from unusual moments such as when Yitzhak Rabin obtained the presidency at which point they murdered him.

    The reason they did that and still do, is to make Israel, which they set-up, a pariah state. So that when its beset by a seething sea of furious and implacable Muslims, no-one will come in and save them.

    Game, set and about to be, match. Aided of course by useful idiots galore, such as you and Shawn, who apparently can’t wait to see Israel destroyed and Satan rise.

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  330. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Johnboy (13,309 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 9:31 pm

    When my great grandfather arrived here he looked at the land and saw roast mutton on the tables of all his relatives back home.

    The money he made may be borrowed, but must be repaid, because it doesn’t belong to anyone that has been born yet .. it always belongs to next generation.

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  331. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Reid (15,422 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 5:54 pm.

    This is but one example of the kind of Rubbish Reid places between ears from his earlier link ,

    http://chasvoice.blogspot.fr/2014/03/no-sandy-hook-victim-ever-born-multiple.html

    and another one from one of the most virulent anti Jewish hate sites on the internet, Zionist Crime Factory none other ,

    http://spingola.com/JewWorldOrder.pdf

    I can only conclude the guy is a genuine sicko.!

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  332. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    This is but one example of the kind of Rubbish Reid places between ears from his earlier link ,

    Above is but one example stephie pretends I posted, which I never did.

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  333. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Sofia (775 comments) says:
    April 10th, 2014 at 9:13 pm

    Like most things said in the house, they were heavily staged conversations, IMO.

    I am sure Collins, given the first act of this play, has been told to give one answer and that is all. I’m sure she is very aware her career rests on how she handles the situation. Problem is, that the longer it goes on, the more stupid both sides look.

    I think anyone with a brain will know that Collins visit was not entirely appropriate, but we’ve got that message now, and the shock impact has been achieved – I don’t think Labour can expect to keep collecting points from the same play – the horse is dead – it ain’t going to ‘neigh’ no more!

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  334. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Sure. I’m not saying there is. I’m just refuting the claim that evolution being a series of “accidents” does not mean that the universe can not have been planned

    If evolution is true, then it can’t have been planned in such a way as to necessarily bring human beings into existence. The species that exist right now and their attributes are the result of historical happenstance. If random mutations had turned out differently, we would have completely different species inhabiting the earth. If the universe is designed to bring human beings into existence, it would be odd that it did so via a mechanism which made the existence of human beings and our sense of value extremely improbable.

    It is possible that the universe has some other purpose, but that purpose would have nothing to do with human ends or needs. We would be like the random shavings from God’s lathe as he makes whatever it is he is making (a spice rack, if fourth form wood work is anything to go by).

    It remains that human existence is a contingency if the mechanism by which we were produced is evolution. Things could have been otherwise.

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  335. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    supporting zionist thugs who murder Palestinian children?

    I don’t support them either, and I have real problems with the behaviour of the Jewish community in the USA (but not NZ), but that doesn’t mean I believe in the widely debunked Khazar bull shit or any of the other conspiracy theories.

    If there’s a world wide Jewish conspiracy, then Stephen Fry and Al Franken must be in on it.

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  336. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Things could have been otherwise.

    To take it a bit further. If human desires are contingencies, then it seems odd that God would get all het up about men wanting to put their penises in other men’s bottoms, or teenage boys jerking off over pictures of naked ladies.

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  337. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Reid,

    This link here,

    http://iamthewitness.com/

    Scroll down right and you’ll see what I mean.

    I refuse to believe that your not aware of them and they don’t illicit some sympathy and support from you.

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  338. wreck1080 (3,923 comments) says:

    I think this could well happen in Auckland….

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2601104/House-prices-soar-2020-Middle-income-earners-priced-warn-Chartered-Surveyors.html

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  339. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    I refuse to believe e that your not aware of them and they don’t illicit some sympathy and support from you.

    Do you stephie. Well what about if I say I wasn’t aware of them and since I’m not, they don’t elicit (not illicit – I told you, educate yourself) any sympathy nor support whatsoever from me, in any way, at all.

    Of course if I bother to read them it’s possible they might, depending what they say. But since you’ve highlighted them I’m afraid to say stephie that’s just dropped right to the bottom on my list of things I’m about to do.

    Why don’t you read: http://ia600508.us.archive.org/3/items/PawnsInTheGame/Carr.-.Pawns.in.the.Game.international.conspiracy.exposed.1958.pdf

    That’s the link I said explains the zionists and who they are. Which is why I gave the link in the first place.

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  340. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “If evolution is true, then it can’t have been planned in such a way as to necessarily bring human beings into existence.”

    This is an assumption that is unprovable either way, and it’s based on a rather odd false dichotomy. Evolution and design are neither rationally nor scientifically incompatible. You assume accidence, but it is an assumption not science. You might be right, but equally you might be wrong.

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  341. SGA (1,069 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 10:31 pm

    Evolution and design are neither rationally nor scientifically incompatible. You assume accidence, but it is an assumption not science.

    It depends what “design” means. If design requires a supernatural input, then it becomes incompatible with science.

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  342. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, so its a Luciferian origin to the Illuminati and the top level of which are Jews – a conspiracy theory as old as a talking serpent that you believe in.

    That the currency traders of the Temple became money lenders and then the House of Rothschild, and the Pharisees became the Illuminati.

    So how does Zionism work with the goal of the Illuminati with one world government.

    The idea that world history is manufactured by Luciferians is simply a form of fatalism that some force in the world is in charge. It used to be that natural events were acts of god now its our political history as something organised by the Luciferians.

    You have no evidence that Wilson required the Balfour Declaration as a condition for US entry for WW1.

    That one preceded the other you then like any pagan fatalist determine that this must have enabled an event that occurred afterwards. That’s taking A means (then) B to a whole new level.

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  343. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “To take it a bit further. If human desires are contingencies”

    How do you know they are? Natural selection still does not prove either contingency or accident. It simply proves selection.

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  344. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “It depends what “design” means. If design requires a supernatural input, then it becomes incompatible with science.”

    Not at all. Because science cannot tell us anything yet, and that is a big yet, about the supernatural. That does not make them incompatible, it makes science limited. Science is a useful too but it has limitations. And given the radical changes in scientific understanding over the last hundred years alone, it strikes me as highly presumptive to assume that science will never be able to say anything on the topic.

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  345. SGA (1,069 comments) says:

    @ShawnLH
    No, you are mistaken. Science is about trying to understand the natural world in terms of natural processes. The supernatural is simply not part of its brief. Most scientists who are religious understand this distinction.

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  346. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    So how does Zionism work with the goal of the Illuminati with one world government.

    Given that I told you Zionism is a political movement: i.e. a front, not a genuine expression of “the will of the people” (which let’s face it, all political movements are, since not even the National Party reflects the genuine will of its people does it), given that and also given that the Illuminati are extremely evil people who want to kill at least 5.5 (or is it 6.5?) billion of us, then how do you think Zionism works, in that context?

    You have no evidence that Wilson required the Balfour Declaration as a condition for US entry for WW1.

    Don’t I. Let me give you a test SPC. Take it for granted for a second that you’re genuinely interested in the question and adopt an open mind. I know it’s hard but just try it for a second. Now go and see if you can find something that really does look as if he did.

    Let’s come back tomorrow sometime and compare notes.

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  347. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “No, you are mistaken. Science is about trying to understand the natural world in terms of natural processes. ”

    No, science is observing what is. “Natural” processes are a part of that, but reality is not necessarily limited to them.

    “The supernatural is simply not part of its brief. Most scientists who are religious understand this distinction.”

    Yes I know, that was my point. But it is also true that because science cannot tell us one way or another, it cannot tell us whether natural processes are accidental or not. YET.

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  348. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid,

    “The reason they did that and still do, is to make Israel, which they set-up, a pariah state. So that when its beset by a seething sea of furious and implacable Muslims, no-one will come in and save them.

    Game, set and about to be, match. Aided of course by useful idiots galore, such as you and Shawn, who apparently can’t wait to see Israel destroyed and Satan rise.”

    So you associate those who do not share your conspiracy theory with those who want to see harm come to the Jews of Israel. Is this supposed to be an attempt to provoke/wound/flame those who bother to question your conspiracy theory about Zionism, so they don’t question your incessant nonsense on the topic?

    A question, how would an end to the state of Israel result in some Satan rise? Or is this simply how you pose Moslem nation military presence in Jerusalem?

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  349. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Reid , with many of your posts and your link to William Guy Carr I refer to my trusty Rational wiki and this is what we learn about the guy,

    “Several 20th century conspiracy theory books such as those by William Guy Carr and Des Griffin combined John Robinson’s allegations about the Illuminati and Freemasonry with those of the hoax book, The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, to come up with an explicitly anti-Semitic version of the Illuminati theory. Jack Chick and Alberto Rivera on the other hand promoted an anti-Roman Catholic variant of the theory, alleging the Illuminati was a creation of the Vatican.”

    Hmmm……!

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Illuminati

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  350. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “So you associate those who do not share your conspiracy theory with those who want to see harm come to the Jews of Israel.”

    As a Christian Zionist I support the Jewish people and the state of Israel. I don’t want harm to come to them, but Reid insists that his anti-Semitic conspiracy theory means I do.

    Problem is that I think his theory is total nonsense with zero credible evidence.

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  351. SGA (1,069 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 10:57 pm

    “No, you are mistaken. Science is about trying to understand the natural world in terms of natural processes. ”
    No, science is observing what is.

    You can call it a teacup if you really must – but don’t expect people to take you seriously.

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  352. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “You can call it a teacup if you really must – but don’t expect people to take you seriously.”

    And vice versa. “Accident” is an interpretation of the evidence, not the evidence itself. It’s a worldview, an interpretation, just as Christianity is a worldview.

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  353. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    So you associate those who do not share your conspiracy theory with those who want to see harm come to the Jews of Israel.

    Of course I do. Why do you think Stalin himself coined the phrase “useful idiots” to describe people like you? It’s because you don’t just stand by on the sidelines like slack-jawed yokels doing nothing in particular, it’s because you actually believe in your gawping insanity that the actions of the people who are destroying the target are laudable and you vigorously defend them against those of us who are attempting to point out the destruction. That’s why a man like Stalin called people like you, “useful.”

    Sorry about that SPC and I know you’re not doing it on purpose but hey, I’m not playing the role of the idiot in this equation mate.

    A question, how would an end to the state of Israel result in some Satan rise?

    If Israel is destroyed then what does that do to the belief of all those naive Christians like Shawn who really believe the current state of Israel as it is really does consist of God’s chosen people? What would that do to their belief in a loving God, if they saw that happen before their very eyes?

    And what does the Bible say about that? The city of the seven hills is not Rome as many to most think, it’s Jerusalem. That’s the capital of the NWO. The anti-Christ is prophesied to appear as a man of peace for a short time, before he strips off the mask and bares his fangs. What better place to do that than from a resurrected temple. The trappings of which have already been made and which are in storage in Jerusalem.

    I refer to my trusty Rational wiki

    In other words, do anything but actually read it, eh stephie?

    Hmmmmmmmmm.

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  354. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    “In other words, do anything but actually read it, eh stephie?”

    I have read all of the theories you link to before, a long time ago. None of it is credible, and your interpretation of Revelations is at best a fringe one, especially in the Anglican Church.

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  355. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, to pose Zionism as distinct from the will of the Jewish people you would have to explain why the Jewish people would not see having a national homeland as their will. And distinguish your Zionism from that of Jews for and of the state of Israel’s existence.

    Whenever anyone believes that the book of Revelation is prophecy that applies to real world history in time and place there will be something kooky in both religious terms and in analysis of world politics.

    One attempt to get around that is to have a Luciferian conspiracy applying across history and relate it to government in the world, but if this goes beyond the acceptance of a cyclical view of history – political power/empire rises and falls between the nations and there is the way of peace and co-existence and the way of abuse of power (and power tends to corrupt), then it will be equally kooky. Trying to connect Luciferian conspiracy theory to Zionism, because that is relevant in our era and many American Christians believe in end time prophecy, is a fools game.

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  356. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    I really can’t be bothered in any of these conversations.

    Some of the recent stuff Reid posted has been pretty offensive. Maybe I could complain to DPF, but I really don’t want to interrupt his holiday. I think DPF kinda tolerates him and a few others. DPF himself called him “Fucking Bonkers” in the past

    When I first arrived here about 7 years ago I used to get angry at his wild accusations. Then I realised that he was just some poor guy that lives in Eastbourne. Not part of any group, and pretty unlikely to be recruiting. Posts on Kiwiblog non stop. Probably would get more out of life by spreading some kind acts than sharing this nasty stuff. Maybe some would say that would be more Christian too. I really can’t say.

    Have you ever seen the movie “A Beautiful Mind”. That’s pretty much whats going on here I think

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  357. SGA (1,069 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 11:08 pm

    It’s a worldview, an interpretation, just as Christianity is a worldview.

    But ShawnLH, there are christian scientists, jewish scientists, muslim scientists, buddhist scientists, hindu scientists, etc. They both hold their religious worldviews and pursue science. Although it would be difficult to be both a young earth creationist and a geologist :-) .

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  358. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    Do you read any mainstream theologians Reid? You might want to try ‘And the Lamb Wins’ by Simon Ponsonby, who refutes the whole anti-Christ/666/The Omen movie silliness.

    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4268394-and-the-lamb-wins

    The anti-Christ references in Scripture are references to the Roman Emperor Nero specifically, and tyranny in general. The book of Revelations has little to do with any end times program, and more to do with a critique of tyrannical government in any form at any time.

    Anyway, I’m off to bed.

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  359. ShawnLH (5,285 comments) says:

    SGA,

    “But ShawnLH, there are christian scientists, jewish scientists, muslim scientists, buddhist scientists, hindu scientists, etc. They both hold their religious worldviews and pursue science.”

    Yes, I know. I’m not sure that we disagree about that. I’m not rejecting science at all, I am in fact agreeing with you. Science and theology are very different disciplines, and one can hold to both.

    Just to be clear I’m not a young earth creationist. I put YEC on the same level as Reid’s end times ideas, cartoonish abuses of Scripture based on a failure to understand the narrative nature of Scripture and the fact that Genesis I and 2 AND the book of Revelations are Psalms, mythopoetic narrative songs that were likely originally set to music.

    Night all.

    And God bless. ;)

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  360. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    How do you know they are? Natural selection still does not prove either contingency or accident. It simply proves selection.

    The mechanism of evolution involves mutation and natural selection. Mutations are random, and natural selection decides which mutations will continue to exist and which will not. An organism’s environment is populated with other organisms subject to the same processes, so it’s not the case of one type of organism evolving against a static environment. Whether or not a particular random mutation survives is largely up to what other random mutations have or will be thrown up.

    If human life were the object of a designer, it would be completely mad for the designer to have used a mechanism that would have very little chance of actually producing human life as we know it, yet that is the mechanism by which our species came into being.

    If God wanted to create human beings, why did he bother to create millions and millions of species that no longer exist. Did he create dinosaurs just so kids could enjoy reading about them, and nuked them with a meteorite once enough had lived to make a sufficient number of fossils to keep us interested.

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  361. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, and … how does an end to the state of Israel result in world rule/a world ruler in Jerusalem and the Temple being rebuilt in place of a mosque?

    I realise that originally some (UN 1947) wanted Jerusalem to be separate from Jewish and Palestinian states and reserved as an international city for all religions. But this is not the same as world rule from Jerusalem and this is most unlikely.

    Are you saying that the state of Israel’s end would coincide with destruction of the Dome of Rock? And that neither would be restored? But instead a Temple would be built? And that the one base that the USA would accept for the UN, if not in the USA, would be Jerusalem (if the state of Israel claim expired)?

    Sorry, the UN is not likely to be a credible world ruler, just a continuing collective group constraint on those that would prefer to exercise national power beyond their own border.

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  362. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    to pose Zionism as distinct from the will of the Jewish people you would have to explain why the Jewish people would not see having a national homeland as their will. And distinguish your Zionism from that of Jews for and of the state of Israel’s existence.

    Why? Zionism is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Therefore it would be surprising at all that many real Jews would approve of it. I mean why not. Useful idiocy isn’t confined to gentiles.

    Whenever anyone believes that the book of Revelation is prophecy that applies to real world history in time and place there will be something kooky in both religious terms and in analysis of world politics.

    It’s part of the Bible SPC. You either believe it or you don’t, but its hard to pick and choose if you do believe it.

    Trying to connect Luciferian conspiracy theory to Zionism, because that is relevant in our era and many American Christians believe in end time prophecy, is a fools game.

    It’s lucky I don’t connect it for that reason then isn’t it. The reason I connect it is because that’s the way it is.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4549.htm

    It is the duty of all Jews with a sense of justice and a conscience to speak out against the falsifications of history by the Zionist lobby, and the dangerous misconceptions it has led the West to accept.

    Not part of any group, and pretty unlikely to be recruiting.

    I always wondered if you were from there Tim. The way you always used to pop up just at the right moment.

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  363. Reid (16,509 comments) says:

    how does an end to the state of Israel result in world rule/a world ruler in Jerusalem and the Temple being rebuilt in place of a mosque?

    Israel’s not going to be destroyed by itself, is it. It’s going to be in the context of a wider conflict. That’s why they’re provoking the Muslims and conditioning the West to hallucinate the Muslim is their enemy.

    And when it breaks where is it going to break and whose going to be in the middle of it?

    And that the one base that the USA would accept for the UN, if not in the USA, would be Jerusalem (if the state of Israel claim expired)?

    You’re trying to calculate a world based on todays power structures which wouldn’t exist the way they do today. The USA is being destroyed as we speak, the work is almost completed.

    Sorry, the UN is not likely to be a credible world ruler

    Yes it will be, if NATO is its army, which it will be and if Russia and China are either co-opted or destroyed. Biologicals targeting Asian DNA will do away with China and most of Asia, what will Russia do? Join or be destroyed?

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  364. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, the flood story is also part of the bible yet did not occur in real history, so why believe that Revelation is prophecy of events that are to occur in any particular time and place either?

    The two stores when read together explain this.

    Does God create life to then kill it in floods and via bowls of judgment from on high like a pagan god of natural disasters? There is no evidence of this.

    Even a child can understand the meaning … God creates creation, life is mortal and dependent on its habitat being habitable for survival. That is simply the nature of our mortal life condition.

    Apparently so is imagining that political changes in the world are the work of God (or since the bible was published) or some adversary of God. It’s superstitious fatalism. Humanity has free will dominion and responsibility.

    The bible story is about faith in whether there is more than the here and now in our finite (in time and place, if rather large) universe, whether there is a God and related faith in matters such as in surviving that which would kill us/eliminate life from its habitat.

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  365. Manolo (13,837 comments) says:

    The bastards should be torpedoed and their boats sunk: http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/9927750/People-smugglers-in-Indonesia-selling-spots-on-a-boat-to-New-Zealand

    “Everyone is talking New Zealand. There is every facility…and after that you can try [to go to] a big country, every other country.

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  366. seanmaitland (501 comments) says:

    @duggledog – if you have a decent car, DO NOT put Gull fuel in it. Its watered down with ethanol by 10 percent. It is cheaper, but you’ll get way less mileage out of it and have to fill your car up more often, especially if you’re on the open road a lot.

    The best quality fuels in NZ are Z and Caltex – you shouldn’t touch other companies fuels if you care about what you put into your car.

    Its well known that ethanol diluted petrol causes serious problems with the fuel systems, in particular destroying the fuel pumps. Car manufacturers will not pay out on warranties for fuel systems if you’ve been using ethanol laced fuels either. If your car is worth more than $3500, then using Gull fuel on it is supremely stupid.

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  367. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    It make you feel like a real man when you shoot!!

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  368. SPC (5,641 comments) says:

    Reid, regarding your posts of 9.45pm and 10.56pm where you claimed that the price of American entry into WW1 was the Balfour Declaration.

    Presumably part of your vast research on the Luciferian Illuminati and related synagogue of Satan Zionist conspiracy theory.

    The Balfour Declaration was signed in November 1917. The USA entered the war in April 1917. The reason was the USA standing up for freedom of the sea across the Atlantic and Germans pissed off at American supply to the Allies while the Allies applied on blockade on Germany decided to resume attacks on shipping in January 1917. Within days this led to the end of diplomatic relations. And after the Zimmerman telegram – Germans seeking an alliance with Mexico, war was declared in April.

    https://history.state.gov/milestones/1914-1920/wwi

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