General Debate 11 April 2014

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Weihana

tom hunter (3,971 comments) says:
April 11th, 2014 at 12:19 pm

Using that as the basis there are a number of countries in the 19th century that would likely meet that standard, all of them Western countries and all, bar one exception, located in Western Europe. The exception is the USA and I think it comes the closest in that timeframe. It had a tiny central government, minimal amounts of laws and certainly a minimal amount of rules and regulations, those mostly controlled by local entities such as counties, towns, cities and states (in ascending order). The 19th century USA probably best fits the laissez-faire capitalist minarchies description. Furthermore, let’s try and do a divide between this era and the so-called “Progressive” one that starts cranking up around 1910.

Between 1800 and 1910 this society increased it’s GDP about 57 times (GDP measured in constant 2009 $US), an annual growth rate of about 3.7% per year. During this period there were any number of massive market failures (the 1870′s in particular) for which there was no welfare state to correct.

Does that mean the USA in this period – where it reasonably matched Libertarian principles – had not delivered a “reasonably functional society” by 1910, or even earlier (and one far more so than the USSR circa 1960)?

Incidentally the period from 1910 to 2010 has GDP (again in constant 2009 $US) increasing about 25.7 times, an annual growth rate of 3.3% per annum, and the periods between 1800-1930 and 1930-2010 yield similar GDO growth rates of 3.6% and 3.4% per annum.

Here is a map of the USA in 1800

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_1800-07-10-1802.png

This is a map of the USA in 1912

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_1912-01-1912-02.png

The population in 1800? 5 million.

The population in 1910? 92 million. An 18-fold increase.

The population in 2010? 308 million. A three-fold increase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States#Historical_population

I’ll leave it to you to consider why your analysis might seem somewhat shallow. 🙂

This statement though deserves particular recognition:

The 19th century USA probably best fits the laissez-faire capitalist minarchies description

It’s an interesting insight into certain prejudices and bias. For some the complete subjudgation of people based on their skin colour has little impact on their assessment of how “free” a society is (or was rather), but paying tax to fund healthcare and education is apparently quite a burden on freedom such that today’s society is much less “laissez-faire” than a slave-owning society was.

I suppose it was “laissez-faire” for the people that mattered, but for others the government was an all-encompassing presence in their lives: sanctioning and enforcing a system which allowed some people to own other people as property.
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April 11, 2014 4:11pm
ShawnLH

“Micronuke, conventional explosives or directed energy weapon. Which one?”

Yup. Like I said, the story just keeps changing as the “evidence” falls through the cracks.
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April 11, 2014 4:12pm
Weihana

nasska (9,413 comments) says:
April 11th, 2014 at 8:01 am

A recent report from the IPCC? No…..a “scientific” prediction of global cooling from Newsweek, April 28, 1975.

The IPCC and Newsweek are equivalent in your view?

Those who want to collapse the world economy & wreck Western society in the names of Control & Gaia couldn’t get it right 39 years ago either. 🙂

It’s kinda like saying:

Once upon a time the “scientists” explained gravity by saying bodies tended towards their “natural place”. Then the “scientists” said that objects continued in uniform motion unless acted on by an external force. These bloody “scientists” can’t make up their minds!
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April 11, 2014 4:15pm
Reid

So sadly the useful idiots found the evaporation challenge far too hard to handle. After all, how hard is it to watch 20 seconds of video and explain how massive steel beams and column simply turn to dust, one of them in mid-air, as it falls? That’s not hard at all, compared to believing the official story, which the useful idiots believe. But they can’t even do that.

So here’s an easier one. The Pentagram. Using a simulator with the actual flight data loaded. Perhaps they can explain how come even real proper pilots say they can’t do it? Is that easier than the evaporation challenge?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GNMakBEECqA

Like I said, the story just keeps changing as the “evidence” falls through the cracks.

The only confusion is in your tiny fragile mind Shawn. As far as I know, UT’s always said it was micro-nukes and he’s never changed that. He’s been saying that consistently, as far as I know. My opinion is that the best explanation is directed energy. So lo, UT and I don’t agree. That’s the only thing that’s happening in the real world here. There’s no “changing.” Of course who knows what’s happening in your rat-infested tiny angry little mind but let’s not go there. Just try not to lie. If you can.
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April 11, 2014 4:16pm
UglyTruth

Micronuke, conventional explosives or directed energy weapon. Which one?

I don’t know. I think the easiest case to prove is that micronukes of some kind were involved, although both of the others could have been used as well.

Dr Wood, the main DEW theorist, tries to debunk the molten steel evidence.
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April 11, 2014 4:18pm
mikenmild

Nice to have options eh, Ugly? Even in the unlikely event that you accept one of those three methods was impossible, you will still have an alternative piece of craziness.
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April 11, 2014 4:24pm
Southern Raider

I see Sam Morgan is speaking at the Mana Party conference this weekend about how rich people should pay more tax.

Hey Sam how about you lead by example and make a voluntary tax donation to the Govt for 30% of what your made on the sale of TradeMe you two faced socialist?
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April 11, 2014 4:25pm
nasska

….”the term “brainwashed” has no scientific or psychological validity as a description of religious people right”….

Incorrect….from Mike’s link:

….”He (Downey) finds that the biggest influence on religious affiliation is religious upbringing—people who are brought up in a religion are more likely to be affiliated to that religion later.”…..

This is inarguable. All churches of all faiths seize children born to their followers & commence instilling the crap at the earliest possible opportunity. Instance Sunday Schools & youth groups.

It is nothing short of indoctrination but it fills tomorrow’s otherwise empty pews.
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April 11, 2014 4:26pm
Reid

Why don’t you take the evaporation challenge mm? You’re one of the useful idiots aren’t you? 10 seconds of video. Simple. Go on.
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April 11, 2014 4:26pm
ShawnLH

Take music break! Dedicated to naaska! 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytwcC1kbl0Q
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April 11, 2014 4:26pm
mikenmild

The ‘evaporation challenge’? Maybe I will.
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April 11, 2014 4:27pm
Reid

http://vimeo.com/58882431

Between 0.40-1.10

Explain how those things evaporate into dust.
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April 11, 2014 4:30pm
mikenmild

You know Judy Woods’s theory is so bat-shit crazy that other truthers debunk it, right?
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April 11, 2014 4:34pm
nasska

Weihana

The conclusions drawn in the 1975 argument I instanced are a crock of shit on a par with today’s IPCC revelations. It’s just that after four more decades at the trough the weather scientists have learned the rudiments of PR & now generally sing from the same hymn book.

When in doubt follow the money. We are being fed the crap the scientists are being paid our money to discover so Western civilisation can be taxed out of existence & control turned over to the venal UN.

I wouldn’t believe them if they guaranteed night to follow day.
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April 11, 2014 4:35pm
ShawnLH

“are a crock of shit on a par with today’s IPCC revelations”

Yeah, damn all that pesky science getting in the way of enlightenment!

“We are being fed the crap the scientists are being paid our money to discover”

Like evolution? 😉
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April 11, 2014 4:40pm
nasska

….”Like evolution?”….

No need to trouble the scientists here. In this instance a small dollop of common sense is all that’s required to undermine the Godologists.
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April 11, 2014 4:43pm
ShawnLH

Oh I have no problem with evolution myself, I’m just fascinated by your double standards and contradictions.

It’s all “science and reason and common sense” until it gets in the way of your personal ideology. Then all that goes out the door, and suddenly the scientists cannot be trusted.

I think the technical term for this ‘convenient cherry picking.’ Or hypocrisy. Take your pick. 🙂
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April 11, 2014 4:49pm
nasska

….” ‘convenient cherry picking.’ Or hypocrisy.”….

There’s a third possibility……that of a well honed cynicism of any discovery or action that benefits only a third party who seeks to control everyone else.

The church hierarchies & the UN proponents of a NWO spring to mind.
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April 11, 2014 4:54pm
ShawnLH

The problem is that claim could be aimed at any scientific theory if your of a mind to indulge in conspiracies, so it’s not really a third possibility, it’s still cherry picking hypocrisy.

Now, is this global threat of world domination from the UN being led by reptilian shape shifters, or some other shadowy group?

It’s so hard to keep up with these theories. 🙂
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April 11, 2014 4:58pm
Reid

You know Judy Woods’s theory is so bat-shit crazy that other truthers debunk it, right?

No the challenge wasn’t to test your dissembling skill mm it was simply to look at a video and explain what you were seeing. Simple right? Go for it. If you can.

I think the technical term for this ‘convenient cherry picking.’ Or hypocrisy. Take your pick.

That’s right Shawn. Hypocrisy I’m picking for you. As soon as someone asks you a simple question like look at 30 secs of video and explain it you don’t want to. Or do you?
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April 11, 2014 4:59pm
ShawnLH

I just get bored dealing with your mental illness Reid, so move on to other subject’s. You take yourself far too seriously. Nobody else here apart from UT takes you seriously at all. Your narcissistic personality disorder is truly impressive.
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April 11, 2014 5:04pm
mikenmild

Reid.
Just wanted to make sure you knew that even hard-core truthers have problems with the space-laser theory. I will look at the video, in time. Just for you.
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April 11, 2014 5:05pm
SPC

A new world order ambition declared in 1990 by President of the United States of America George H W Bush – where the UN would ensure the rule of law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc7i0wCFf8g
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April 11, 2014 5:08pm
SPC

There were two Presidents called George Bush, shapeshifting under a common name in the White House?
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April 11, 2014 5:11pm
griffith

Having a little wingnut outburst nasska ;lol:
how cute
focusing on the un and the IPCC

Your denail generated mind trick ….EH…..

Dont actually admit into your conscience that it is every major scientific body In the fucking world.
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April 11, 2014 5:13pm
TheContrarian

Micronukes? Wow.
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April 11, 2014 5:17pm
Reid

So let’s see, the useful idiots go on and on and on and on for days and days and days about molten metal making literally hundreds of posts between them about how it cannot exist, including today, but as soon as I post a video and ask you to watch 30 seconds of it you’re all of a sudden not interested? Well mm is but not you Shawn?

Video is hard to explain isn’t it. Especially when it blows the official story out of the water. But you just carry on Shawn. I knew you wouldn’t do it. You just don’t want the truth, you can’t handle it.

A new world order ambition declared in 1990 by President of the United States of America George H W Bush – where the UN would ensure the rule of law.

Just out of interest SPC: why did you post that?
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April 11, 2014 5:18pm
nasska

….”Dont actually admit into your conscience that it is every major scientific body In the fucking world.”….

Don’t knock it Griff. Someone trained 100 ankle biters who make up the Vienna Boys’ Choir to sing in perfect unison.

Showing a group of well educated scientists the benefits of sticking to the plot wouldn’t be too hard. 🙂
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April 11, 2014 5:22pm
UglyTruth

A new world order ambition declared in 1990 by President of the United States of America George H W Bush

Their world order is a secular one (novus ordo seclorum).

where the UN would ensure the rule of law.

They’re not talking about the rule of law as it applies to due process, but their own humanised version.

http://www.un.org/en/ruleoflaw/

“For the United Nations, the rule of law refers to a principle of governance in which all persons, institutions and entities, public and private, including the State itself, are accountable to laws that are publicly promulgated, equally enforced and independently adjudicated, and which are consistent with international human rights norms and standards. It requires, as well, measures to ensure adherence to the principles of supremacy of law, equality before the law, accountability to the law, fairness in the application of the law, separation of powers, participation in decision-making, legal certainty, avoidance of arbitrariness and procedural and legal transparency.”
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April 11, 2014 5:26pm
griffith

massive conspiracy
😆
pathetic wingnut
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April 11, 2014 5:26pm
ShawnLH

We’ll get to it Reid, just wait your turn.

I’m more fascinated by naaska’s claims about reason and science right before he launches into an all out attack on science based on a whackjob new world order global conspiracy.

I think my faith might be safe from his mocking. 🙂

His faith in a wingnut conspiracy theory might not be safe from mine. 🙂
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April 11, 2014 5:29pm
UglyTruth

Micronukes? Wow.

It’s the simplest explanation for the extraordinary amount of heat associated with the molten steel, it explains the steel fused with concrete, Felipe David’s injuries, the Sr/Ba ratio found in the harbour samples, and it explains the concrete that turned into fine dust.
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April 11, 2014 5:31pm
SPC

Reid, I posted the video as evidence that it was President George Bush senior who proposed a UN led world order not someone of the UN – to correct nasska’s “UN proponents of a NWO spring to mind”.

I now link to pictures of an autumn scene and the brain of Einstein.

http://photobucket.com/images/autumn%20scenes?page=1

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=picture+of+the+brain+of+albert+einstein&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4GGHP_en-GBNZ423NZ423&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6H9HU8GfJ8SmlQW5uIDIDw&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1548&bih=714
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April 11, 2014 5:39pm
Grant

Reid, do you have some sort of gastro fetish or something?

I read yours and your one and only disciples , (UT), comments and I cant believe that someone who can possibly breathe and remain upright at the same time, believes the things you do. No, it doesn’t hurt my tummy, and no, I won’t start swapping my ‘r’s for ‘w’s, but your ability to find fantasy where there is none just about does my head in.

You are delusional.
G
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April 11, 2014 5:39pm
Reid

You are delusional.

Me and millions of others Grant and the number grows every day as the facade crumbles. As you know…

“…All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”
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April 11, 2014 5:49pm
ShawnLH

Reid’s psycho-sexual obsession for other peoples stomachs is certainly creepy, to say the least, and yet more evidence, along with space laser theories for the WTC, of a serious mental illness.
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April 11, 2014 5:50pm
ShawnLH

Yup, naaska is definitely in the tribe of the “enlightened.” 🙂
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April 11, 2014 5:52pm
TheContrarian

It isn’t “the simplest explanation”. It an extraordinarily complex explanation
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April 11, 2014 5:54pm
UglyTruth

Reid’s psycho-sexual obsession for other peoples stomachs is certainly creepy

What is really creepy is how you conflate a fear response with sexual obsesssion.
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April 11, 2014 5:55pm
Reid

Reid’s psycho-sexual obsession for other peoples stomachs is certainly creepy, to say the least, and yet more evidence, along with space laser theories for the WTC, of a serious mental illness.

Ah Shawn Shawn Shawn. Lying again?

Who mentioned space? You did, and you alone.

Who mentioned lasers? You did, and you alone.

I wish you’d stop lying. I mean my words are recorded, you can see what I said, but you can’t help yourself, it seems.

For Grant’s edification since you already know this Shawn not that it stopped you lying about it, cognitive dissonance is an emotional condition not a logical one. The less logical you are the more you are likely to suffer from it. That’s why Grant I refer to sufferers as having tummy problems.

Shawn seems to think that’s a sexual allusion, but if I were you, I’d stay well away from Shawn’s madness, his cognitive dissonance is in the serious category, his tummy appears to be on fire, he’s so very emotional.

Edit: Snap UT. Luckily for him I’m a Christian, so I forgive him.
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April 11, 2014 5:58pm
UglyTruth

It isn’t “the simplest explanation”. It an extraordinarily complex explanation

Let me break it down for you: one or more tiny nuclear bombs went off.
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April 11, 2014 6:02pm
Ryan Sproull

“…All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”

Best not forget that ridiculous untruths enter that first stage too – and kind of stay there.
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April 11, 2014 6:04pm
UglyTruth

Who mentioned space? You did, and you alone.

Who mentioned lasers? You did, and you alone.

Misrepresenting other people’s arguments is what he does.
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April 11, 2014 6:07pm
Reid

Best not forget that ridiculous untruths go into that first stage too – and kind of stay there.

Like the Earth is flat?

The Sun revolves around the Earth?

911 is such a seminal event that it’s like Mt Everest. Once you climb it you’re never the same again. But it’s one of the hardest to climb because you can’t just be a partial skeptic of the official story like you can with JFK, it’s the whole hog or nothing.

With JFK most people I would imagine have doubts about the official version but I imagine many of those with doubts still nevertheless basically still believe the US govt is good and if there has been some kind of coverup it’s all in our best interests and when the time is right the truth will come out and those living in that belief can credibly do that in their own minds since it was only one man and such people normally don’t connect it to Vietnam or anything else that would otherwise rock that safe, complacent boat.

With 911 it was so appalling that accepting the merest hint that all is not right in that story automatically entails massive cognitive dissonance against all that you have up till then believed is good, just and true in the world.

Interestingly there’s a new consciousness dawning in the world which is going to wipe away these fears and partly that’s the youth growing up with the interweb and partly it’s other things on other levels which is bringing it about. We’re on the cusp of a significant change in human consciousness and part of that will involve coming to terms with all the lies and deceptions that have been to date foisted upon us. And you know what Ryan? The only way through that once that dawning is complete will be to forgive. Once history is laid bare and the spin is removed and the archives are all public there will be furious anger amongst those who don’t already know what’s been going on, for centuries. But the only way forward will not be revenge, it will be forgiveness. And that is going to be the test of our species. And the way things are going, I don’t think we’ll pass it.
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April 11, 2014 6:19pm
SPC

“The stone age did not end because of a lack of stones”

Change in the global energy market.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11236662
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April 11, 2014 6:20pm
Ryan Sproull

Best not forget that ridiculous untruths go into that first stage too – and kind of stay there.

Like the Earth is flat?

The Sun revolves around the Earth?

No, like “Pizza Hutt is putting mind-control drugs in the pepperoni”.
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April 11, 2014 6:30pm
SPC

When placed in a difficult position, between a rock in front of cave and a Cross someone said

“what is truth”.

Does everyone in the world die apart from one family, where God is called father by some guy with an Ark that looks like a new world order replacement for the old one – no one actually has to die when faith in the world changes.

From a person who wisely said that you don’t need an army the population of China to piss all over the Republican Guards from a great height, but forgot about the difficulty of occupation when undertaking regime change afterwards.

“There are the known unknowns and there are the unknown unknowns”.

Translation, don’t put your trust in men like me knowing as much as we need to.
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April 11, 2014 6:30pm
Steve (North Shore)

Now that I am home and have some leisure time, I see that someone with the silly first name ‘Newbie’ has decided to have a go at John Key. This person is the reason why my grandkids are taught by sniveling socialist teachers – and the man teachers are girly boys, wimps, sooks. The kids never get a teacher has the traits of a real bloke.
Key helped the girl present herself for the camera in a better way – after all he should know.
But this attack on Key is obviously someone in the media who will use any method to discredit John Key.

Hello Rachel, your mike is on
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April 11, 2014 6:37pm
eszett

Ryan Sproull (6,595 comments) says:
April 11th, 2014 at 6:04 pm

“…All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”

Best not forget that ridiculous untruths enter that first stage too – and kind of stay there.

Indeed, it’s stupid to conclude from such a quote that if something is ridiculed or opposed it is evidently true.

In fact the more someone presents this quote as “evidence” the more likely it is that the ridicule is justified.
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April 11, 2014 6:37pm
Ryan Sproull

This person is the reason why my grandkids are taught by sniveling socialist teachers – and the man teachers are girly boys, wimps, sooks. The kids never get a teacher has the traits of a real bloke.

Is a real bloke the kind of person who calls others “girly boys, wimps and sooks”? If so, there’s plenty of real blokes around. They’re students at high schools.
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April 11, 2014 6:44pm
Reid

No, like “Pizza Hutt is putting mind-control drugs in the pepperoni”.

…the conspiracy-theory label was popularized as a pejorative putdown by the CIA in a global propaganda program to attack critics of the Warren Commission ’s conclusion that President Kennedy was assassinated by a lone gunman with no government foreknowledge or assistance. The CIA campaign called on foreign media corporations and journalists to criticize “conspiracy theorists” and raise questions about their motives and judgments. Any and all criticisms of the lone – gunman account of the assassination were lumped together as “conspiracy theories,” declared groundless and pernicious, and attributed to ulterior motives and the influence of communist propagandists.

and

http://truthandshadows.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/contrived-ridicule-of-conspiracy-theories-really-means-stop-questioning-stop-thinking/
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April 11, 2014 6:45pm
Ryan Sproull

Reid, I didn’t say your theories are ridiculous because they are conspiracy theories. I said that just because a theory is ridiculed, that does not mean it’s true.
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April 11, 2014 6:47pm
Harriet

“…….A seminar at a Northland church tomorrow offering to help people overcome their “same-sex attraction issues” has sparked a furore on social media and in the gay community.

The talk, at Paihia’s Baptist Church, was advertised in Mid North community newspapers this week. The ad invited anyone who had problems with same-sex attraction, or a loved one who did, to hear the life story of a man who had overcome his issues.

He and his wife had helped many others, the ad said.

The backlash started with a post on the Northland Grapevine Facebook page, which had more than 230 comments by noon yesterday.

Comments ranged from those who were appalled by the implication that being gay was a condition that had to be overcome, to those who defended the church’s right to host the talk or were concerned by what they saw as a threat to free speech.

Others saw the reaction against the talk as a sign of how far society had progressed in its acceptance of different expressions of sexuality.

The church’s Facebook page has been swamped with comments criticising the talk.

Pastor Bill Anderson did not wish to comment, saying only that it was a “calm, quiet little ad extending an offer of help to people who are hurting inside”.

He was disappointed with the attacks on him and the church, and that many people only seemed to show an interest in the church when there was controversy.

The Ohaeawai woman whose Facebook post sparked the furore, Alissa Gibbs, said she was “really riled” by the ad at first.

“I don’t think that sort of intolerance has a place in our little community. I wanted to draw it to people’s attention, I didn’t expect such a backlash and I didn’t intend people to jump down the church’s throat.”

However, she stood by her views that the ad was unacceptable. If someone was genuinely unhappy or confused by their sexuality, they should seek help from a trained professional, “not from someone who’s prayed their gay away”.

Ms Gibbs said she was considering a peaceful protest……” ——NZ Herald.

———————————————————-

You don’t need a ‘trained professional’ —– placing other concerns of personal importance over sexual urge – or any other desire – is a natural and common act that all humans have been doing daily and mankind has been doing for thousands of years. And she then implies that to help people to do that is ‘intolerant’ – hardly!!

As always, this discussion of homosexuality is terrified of etiology: from where it comes from!

It is the great bracketing off, no matter what the discourse venue: psychology, social-historical analysis, theology, politics. The question must be ever mystified as the Great Unknown. Those who ask are shamed. It is the insistence upon that refusal which makes this issue of homosexuality so politically explosive.

Yet – the question about the etiology of homosexuality is NOT closed off. And oddly , we have no problem discussing AND identifying the etiology of pedophilia!
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April 11, 2014 6:51pm
SPC

The “conspiracy theory” is older than the “Donation of Constantine” and the “Holy” Roman Empire of Charlemagne.

The CIA did not invent the label, just noted that regime change is of a regime change inheritance and this has a history.
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April 11, 2014 6:55pm
Reid

I said that just because a theory is ridiculed, that does not mean it’s true.

I agree but why didn’t you just say that? And why pray tell would anyone promulgate a theory in order to test its truth or falsity depending on the degree of ridicule it received?

You surely don’t think UT, myself and one or two others do this for fun? Speaking for myself I do it so that when future world events unfold even years hence some people will have a vague memory of these online conversations and will know where to start looking for answers. I don’t need to explain to others what I already know because I already know it and if anyone thinks I do it to win people over, think again, I know people better than that. This stuff takes years to process. Literally.

But conflict and calamity are on the near horizon notwithstanding many to most people think the economy is doing great and when Obama leaves and we get a “sensible” Republican in the WH then global things will pick up again, as they always have. UT and I and a few others already know that’s not going to happen. So speaking for myself, I’m simply leaving breadcrumbs for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, even if right now, they’re not doing either of those things.

The CIA did not invent the label, just noted that regime change is of a regime change inheritance and this has a history.

What they did SGA was tie a subconscious pavlovian emotional reaction to it. Just like advertisers do when they sell a product on TV. It happens all the time.
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April 11, 2014 7:04pm
Ryan Sproull

Reid,

I was responding to your 5.49 comment about how truth begins by being ridiculed.
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April 11, 2014 7:07pm
ShawnLH

“Luckily for him I’m a Christian, so I forgive him.”

A: No, your “christianity” is really a form of Gnostic heresy.

B: I would not be remotely concerned if you hadn’t. Not that I think you really have.
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April 11, 2014 7:10pm
SPC

Wied, I have no conscious problem with government “raising questions about motives and judgements” of those who criticise their policies, actions and cover ups. Nor should they when citizens do the same about their motives and judgements in policy, action and cover ups.

It’s all part of the give and take of free speech.

Of course the inferences of the tin foil hat variety are meant to infer psychologically challenged and weak minded people … and they do have the tech to intimidate ….
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April 11, 2014 7:12pm
Ryan Sproull

You surely don’t think UT, myself and one or two others do this for fun?

I thought we established the other day that UglyTruth is paid by the Israeli government to undermine legitimate opposition to the policies and actions of the Israeli government by associating that opposition with crazy racist rantings.
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April 11, 2014 7:12pm
Reid

I forgive you for bearing false witness against me Shawn. Again. That’s the 7th isn’t it? Commandment I mean.

P.S. I’m disappointed you haven’t responded to the evaporation challenge yet. Looking forward to your explanation.
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April 11, 2014 7:13pm
Harriet

“…All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident……”

Yeah……and for a good example…… ” ‘straight’ means going forward.” 😎
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April 11, 2014 7:17pm
ShawnLH

“You surely don’t think UT, myself and one or two others do this for fun?”

You and UT do it to convince yourselves. Somewhere in the back of your mind you know that your conspiracy theories are untenable, so you spend vast amounts of time desperately trying to convince others in the hopes of having your delusions confirmed. And if you get a lot of opposition, then you take that as confirmation of your delusions as well.
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April 11, 2014 7:17pm
ShawnLH

No, you really don’t “forgive me” Reid, your just mouthing platitudes and parading, like the Pharisees, your sense of self-righteousness. As to bearing false witness, I suspect God’s got a few issues with your false witness with regards to Jews and Israel.
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April 11, 2014 7:22pm
UglyTruth

You and UT do it to convince yourselves

Did the voices in your head tell you that, or did you make it up all by yourself?
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April 11, 2014 7:29pm
SPC

No reid the false witness commandment is number 9, though those who distinguish between coveting another mans wife and another mans ass call it number 8 (having one God as part of the same commandment as having no idols allows them to do this and yet keep their count to 10).

There is no link between Sabbath day keeping and bearing false witness except that where having time off work combined with access to the internet …
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April 11, 2014 7:29pm
wikiriwhis business

Andrew Johnstone – facebook
· Edited · .Fascinating feature article in this months MiNDFOOD magazine about women’s heart health. 48 Kiwi women die from largely preventable heart disease every week. Former PM Jenny Shipley suffered a heart attack at the age of 48. After reading her story I got to thinking about her legacy. An unpopular PM who turned Kiwi against kiwi with her ‘dob in a bludger’ campaign, she belongs to that group of right wing thinkers that resent the social welfare system and use the worst kind of rhetoric and tactics to undermine its validity, and yet she herself has gleaned a rather sumptuous lifestyle from the public purse all her adult life, first as an MP then as a govt minister and now as a highly paid government ‘consultant’. Her arrogance and divisive politics makes it hard for me to use her conferred title of Dame.
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April 11, 2014 7:39pm
Reid

You and UT do it to convince yourselves.

Once again I forgive you for bearing false witness against me Shawn.

Somewhere in the back of your mind you know that your conspiracy theories are untenable

No I don’t put in writing that which I don’t truly believe, unless it’s as a joke which you can usually tell as such. But I’m not disingenuous in the sense you suggest neither consciously or subconsciously.

I know it’s extremely bizarre to you and others. I do realise that. Remember, I know your worldview because it used to be mine and it still is. As I’ve explained the worldview I now have is in addition to not in place of that former worldview. And it’s only when you get that additional worldview that things fall into place and it’s not easy to get there but logic is the answer.

It’s the old Conan-Doyle dicta: Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however absurd, has to be the case.

The reason why you think the way you still do about the world is because your “impossible” is that 911 could not possibly be faked. It simply couldn’t be. Too many people would have talked. Blah blah blah. And that’s where your thinking stops. That’s why you can’t bear to go to the real sites that detail the allegations because as soon as you start a page, any page, your mind screams ‘this is nuts, forget it’ and you get back to your comfort zone.

Ask yourself: what’s that voice and where’s it coming from. And know that it’s as subtle as Satan’s voice when he tempts you. It’s not Satan, it’s your conditioning, but it’s as subtle as he is.

And just like Christians need to first discern and then overcome Satan’s voice so too is the worldly process of following the logical evidence, eliminating the impossible and then analysing whatever is left, however absurd.

Millions if not billions see through different parts of the veil all the time. Muslims, Asians and most East Europeans for example I daresay have no problem seeing 911 for what it is because they don’t have the Western media meme machine shouting at them. Many conservatives see straight through the AGW meme because it’s pitched at tree-huggers, many liberals see straight through the ‘war on tewwor’ meme because it’s pitched at conservatives who think the best defence is a good offence.

Logic is the key. Follow Conan-Doyle.

Edit: Thanks SPC, appreciate the correction.

No, you really don’t “forgive me” Reid, your just mouthing platitudes and parading, like the Pharisees, your sense of self-righteousness. As to bearing false witness, I suspect God’s got a few issues with your false witness with regards to Jews and Israel.

Edit edit: Once again I forgive you for bearing false witness against me Shawn. Luckily there is no commandment about being incorrect so no forgiveness required for your second “suspicion.”
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April 11, 2014 7:41pm
ShawnLH

Reid, real forgiveness is the reason your tongue is still attached to your body after insulting my wife.

And the above rant is exactly what I’m talking about. Your just trying desperately to convince yourself.

Respond to this of you like, but I won’t see it as I’m out for the rest of the night.
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April 11, 2014 7:48pm
nasska

The enlightenment. 🙂

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kcqekcsjg4zg508/Faith%206.jpg
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April 11, 2014 7:50pm
Reid

I didn’t insult your wife, and I forgive you for bearing false witness against me for that.

I brought her into the conversation and asked what would she think of you for saying the things you were saying. If you think that’s an insult to her then you need to re-schedule some surgery because something went very wrong indeed.

As you know forgiveness involves letting things go and it also mean people are still held to account so if you do think I insulted her then I ask nay demand you paste my own words plus your own comment it was in response to, so we can all see what I actually said the other night.
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April 11, 2014 7:52pm
nasska

Trepanning always was a risky, last ditch treatment option Reid. 🙂
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April 11, 2014 7:58pm
Reid

I wish I could respond nasska but ~~I’m pretending that~~ Shawn is my friend.
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April 11, 2014 8:01pm
nasska

A policeman pulled over a driver who had been weaving in and out of the traffic. He approached the car window and said “Sir I need you to blow into this breathalyser”.

The man reaches into his pocket and produces a doctor’s note. On it was written: “This man suffers from chronic asthma. Do not make him perform any action that may leave him short of breath”.

The policeman said “Okay then I need you to come and give a blood sample”. The man produced another letter.

This one said: “This man is a haemophiliac. Please do not cause him to bleed in any way”.

So the officer said: “Right, I need a urine sample then”.

The man produces a third letter from his pocket. It read: “This man supports the Hurricanes. Please don’t take the piss out of him”.
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April 11, 2014 8:07pm
Johnboy

Just in case ye were getting too matey wi that Shawn baistard Reid!

Two Irishmen, Patrick Murphy and Shawn O’Brian grew up together and were lifelong friends. But alas, Patrick developed cancer, and was dying. While on his deathbed, Patrick called to his buddy, Shawn, “O’Brian, come ‘ere. I ‘ave a request for ye.” Shawn walked to his friend’s bedside and kneels.

“Shawny ole boy, we’ve been friends all our lives, and now I’m leaving ‘ere. I ‘ave one last request fir ye to do.”

O’Brian burst into tears, “Anything Patrick, anything ye wish. It’s done.”

“Well, under me bed is a box containing a bottle of the finest whiskey in all of Ireland. Bottled the year I was born it was. After I die, and they plant me in the ground, I want you to pour that fine whiskey over me grave so it might soak into me bones and I’ll be able to enjoy it for all eternity.”

O’Brian was overcome by the beauty and in the true Irish spirit of his friend’s request, he asked, “Aye, tis a fine thing you ask of me, and I will pour the whiskey. But, might I strain it through me kidneys first?”
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April 11, 2014 8:12pm
lofty

Courtesy of ol Remus and the woodpile blog. (Worth a visit)

Ol’ Remus doesn’t believe in climate change, and he doesn’t find climate all that convincing. Hear him out.

Like most folks, if it’s a warm day he’ll get warm. And if it’s raining he’ll get wet. Or cold if it’s cold. And every day contains clues about what’s coming next. That’s about as far as a normal person oughtta be concerned. The trouble starts when we generalize.

For instance: weather. What’s it mean? It’s a concept once-removed from the real an’ actual, like lunch is different from an actual tuna sandwich. Lunch is anything you eat between breakfast and supper. A tuna sandwich is always a tuna sandwich. Simple and reliable.

Same idea: weather doesn’t get you wet, the rain does. Weather can be snow or rain or sunshine. It can all happen in the same day and still be the weather. It’s not like that with, say, rain. It’s either rain or it isn’t. Rain’s a real, tangible thing. Weather’s a notion.

Weather gets expressed in isobars and fronts and pressure areas. Rain gets expressed in water falling on you from outta the sky, you know, rain. Maybe it’s a useful concept, to someone, this weather notion, ‘though it mainly seems like a superfluous ten-foot pole.

Nobody Remus knows says “the weather is falling outta the sky and getting everything wet.” Seems to him the main use of the weather concept is to express ignorance, such as “how’s the weather?” or “what’s the weather for tomorrow?” Nobody asks “how’s the rain?” We’re smarter than that. It’s wet. But it gets worse.

Somebody got the bright idea to take it all a step further and call the normal range of weather “climate.” Notice there’s no word for the abnormal range of weather. There’s no such thing. The range is the range. Simple honesty tells us no standard deviations need apply, no seasonal adjustments accepted, no persuasion allowed. But they do and they are.

Because climate is a manipulable concept once-removed from weather, and weather is a concept once-removed from, say, actual rain, climate is an intangible piled higher than its natural angle of repose allows. Maybe it’s a useful concept, this climate notion, though it seems too derivative to be compelling for anyone other than chambers of commerce.

Somebody got the idea to take it all a step further and invent climate change (formerly, global warming), meaning they compared one part of the climate with another part and discovered they were different. Well, duh, they’re different parts. Couldn’t be any other way. It was just here somebody saw an opportunity, or said another way, here’s where Simple Simon met the pieman.

If the truth is inconvenient it follows a lie is convenient , so they made up a whole ‘nother climate “on spec”, attached one end to the present, stapled the other end onto the future, conveniently, called it “climate change”, waved it around and demanded we should go hungry in the dark now so we won’t go hungry in the dark later. Huh? And for the privilege we should pay them, now and forever. Just to keep things honest, any challenge that doesn’t rely wholly on their analysis is a criminal act, or near enough. Convenience, iron clad.

Ol’ Remus is way north of suspicious now. He thinks he’s seen this movie. Maybe it was The Sting. He thinks we’ve allowed some fast-talkers a few slippery concepts too many. Whatever usefulness they may have is costing us more than they’re worth. Sometimes more really is less.

Ol’ Remus is willing to accept the notion of weather, ’cause he’s easily as ignorant as the next man, but he’ll go no further than allowing for seasons. Even aside from the convenient lies they’ve admitted so far, it’s all quite dubious, so um, no. He neither believes nor accepts climate change, not as presented and probably not at all.

Neither does Lofty!
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April 11, 2014 8:13pm
Johnboy

Speaking of Oirish Idjits! 🙂

Two nuns, Sister Marilyn and Sister Helen, are traveling through Europe in their car. They get to Transylvania and are stopped at a traffic light. Suddenly, out of nowhere, a diminutive Dracula jumps onto the hood of the car and hisses through the windshield.

“Turn the windshield wipers on. That will get rid of the abomination,” says Sister Helen.

Sister Marilyn switches them on, knocking Dracula about, but he clings on and continues hissing at the nuns. “What shall I do now?” she shouts.

Sister Marilyn turned on the windshield washer. Dracula screams as the water burns his skin, but he clings on and continues hissing at the nuns. “Now what?” shouts Sister Marilyn.

“Show him your cross,” says Sister Helen.

“Now you’re talking,” says Sister Marilyn as she opens the window and shouts, “Get the fuck off our car!”
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April 11, 2014 8:16pm
Harriet

“…..The enlightenment…..”

The Bible is not written to explain science but to explain wisdom, and pass on knowledge, wisdom and the Truth. 😎
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April 11, 2014 8:17pm
Weihana

Nasska,

Weather is not climate. Climate is to weather as newtons law of cooling is to the path of a single particle.

As to following the money I cant say I’ve heard of many wealthy climatologists. Hardly seems the road to riches if thats what they care about.
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April 11, 2014 8:18pm
Johnboy

And here was me thinking Al Gore wasn’t on the bones of his arse Weihana! 🙂
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April 11, 2014 8:21pm
nasska

A couple are at an Art exhibition and they are looking at a portrait that has them a little taken aback.
The picture depicts three very black, very naked men sitting on a park bench; two have a black penis and the one in the middle has a pink penis.
As the couple are looking somewhat puzzled at the picture, the Irish artist walks by and says, “can I help you with this painting. I’m the artist who painted it.”
The man says, “well, we like the painting but don’t understand why you have three African men on a bench, and the one in the middle has a pink penis while the other two have black penises.”
The Irish artist says, “oh, you are misinterpreting the painting. They are not African men, they are Irish coal miners, and the one in the middle went home for lunch.”
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April 11, 2014 8:23pm
Johnboy

Miss O’Leary, the church organist, was in her eighties and had never been married. She was much admired for her sweetness and kindness to all. The parish priest came to call on her one afternoon early in the spring, and she welcomed him into her little cottage. She invited him to have a seat while she made the tea. As he sat facing her old pump organ, the priest noticed a cut glass bowl sitting on top of it, filled with water. In the water floated, of all things, an item the menfolk use to help prevent conception. Imagine his shock and surprise. Imagine his curiosity! Surely Miss O’Leary had lost her senses! When she returned with the tea and scones, they began to chat. The priest tried to stifle his curiosity about the bowl of water and its unusual contents, but soon it got the better of him; he could resist no longer. Miss O’Leary,” he said, “I wonder if you would tell me about this?” (pointing to the bowl). “Oh, yes, Father,” she replied, “Isn’t it wonderful? I was walking in the village last October and I found this little package on the ground. The directions said to put it on the organ, keep it wet, and it would prevent disease. And you know… I haven’t had a cold all winter.
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April 11, 2014 8:24pm
nasska

….”As to following the money I cant say I’ve heard of many wealthy climatologists”….

They wouldn’t have to pay them very much Weihana. There’s only one outfit hiring them & all they have to do is produce the ordained answers.
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April 11, 2014 8:27pm
Sponge

I have no desire to get into an argument with any of the truthers. But if this is all some sort of conspiracy then how has this been kept so secret?

There would have to be significant numbers of people planning and plotting to bring something like this off and I simply cannot believe that verifiable proof of the conspiracy would not have leaked out. Governments are useless at keeping secrets (wikileaks anyone?) and it just does not bear scrutiny. And yes I am aware of a mentally ill woman who claimed she was involved in planning it all and no doubt her being “mentally ill” is part of the conspiracy too.

And for the love of god don’t point at some video produced to prove your point. The shrill abuse from the truthers when you don’t agree that a video produced by some bloke in a basement is definitive proof that there is some massive conspiracy is pathetic.
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April 11, 2014 8:31pm
griffith

nasska (9,423 comments) says:
April 11th, 2014 at 8:27 pm

….”As to following the money I cant say I’ve heard of many wealthy climatologists”….

They wouldn’t have to pay them very much Weihana. There’s only one outfit hiring them & all they have to do is produce the ordained answers.
Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

:lol:all the wack— ohs on kb tonight

. We have nasska going global conspicocy of evil sientists and a one word govertment.

Nasska the IPCC total payed employess 12

what a full on wingnut 😆 ;
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April 11, 2014 8:39pm
mikenmild

Now, now griffith. nasska is a good chap usually; he’s good at poking fun at the religiously deluded but has a bit of a blind spot about AGW. We all have our faults: you for example are good on AGW but very weak on NZ history. It’s swings and roundabouts and a little tolerance goes a long way.
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April 11, 2014 8:43pm
UglyTruth

But if this is all some sort of conspiracy then how has this been kept so secret?

It’s not a secret. Some believe it, some don’t.

There would have to be significant numbers of people planning and plotting to bring something like this off and I simply cannot believe that verifiable proof of the conspiracy would not have leaked out.

Verifiable proof of conspiracy has leaked out.

http://donaldfox.wordpress.com/tag/dimona/
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April 11, 2014 8:44pm
nasska

Griff

It’s a game & we’ll never be the winners….it wasn’t designed to be that way.

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/nqcazv3uizryhc1/Climate%20Crap%202.gif
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April 11, 2014 8:52pm
Sponge

Verifiable proof of conspiracy has leaked out.

No UT you have pointed to the bloke in the basement I spoke of – I won’t waste my time reading conspiracy sites. What I would need to see to convince me is independent proof as in the sort that [serious not spurious] “legal action is underway for the great wrong that was committed in the destruction of the WTC” or “30 CIA operatives testify that US Government planed miniature nuclear bombs in the WTC” or “Wikileaks cables show US planned WTC destruction”.

I could create my own website tonight saying that the WTC was brought down by angry smurfs and I could provide any number of reasons for this and most likely even video evidence. Christ knows there is enough footage off it that a video could be found to prove any theory.

I just can’t see how a government that cockes everything else up could get something like this right.
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April 11, 2014 8:54pm
Judith

I thought I had a reasonable understanding of 911 and climate change, and was sorted as far as religion went, until I started reading this thread. Now I’m not sure whether climate change caused 911, or vice versa, and are leaning towards it being all being the work of the two nuns and a couple of Irish men.

Bring back DPF !!! Before they start on UFO’s.
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April 11, 2014 9:01pm
griffith

Griff is weak in nz history ;lol:
loser mike
The treaty bullshiters are weak on nz history.

Te are nz This is the suggested leaning resource for New Zealand school students on the treaty. The figures they use for the maori genocide of up to 20.000 do not match the historical record or any reputable estimates of the carnage of the musket wars. reputable historys Moon and king both say at lest 25000 and probably far more, The actual estimates at the time give up to 50.000

they also totally fail to examine the slave based economy of maori 1800 to 1850 and use the evil settlers meme which is based on a few missionary wowsers complaining about the local bars.As well they allege maori disquite with land sales this was actually more of a fight between the catholic and Anglican missions over who had brought the best land in the boi
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April 11, 2014 9:04pm
mikenmild

Like I say: we all have our weaknesses.
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April 11, 2014 9:07pm
nasska

Judith

But we’ve got UFOs scheduled for tomorrow morning. 🙂
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April 11, 2014 9:08pm
mikenmild

Hope they’re the Nazi UFOs from the Antarctic kind!
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April 11, 2014 9:10pm
wat dabney

The Antarctic Nazi UFOs are all iced-in at the moment.

Remember the record high ice extent down there.
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April 11, 2014 9:26pm
Sponge

wat dabney (3,413 comments) says:
April 11th, 2014 at 9:26 pm
The Antarctic Nazi UFOs are all iced-in at the moment.

Remember the record high ice extent down there

Wouldn’t the space lasers melt the ice fairly easily???? Has the US govt and Israel got some sinister plot underway to prevent the alien space lasers working so the simple folks don’t get to hear about or see the Nazi UFO’s?

It a another bloody conspiracy!
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April 11, 2014 9:37pm
griffith

Bugger the wind speed at CAPE FLATTERY
has hit 49 kn gusting 66 and appears to be jammed on this value
I so wanted to see over 160 kn of wind register in this storm
http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDQ60801/IDQ60801.94188.shtml
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April 11, 2014 9:41pm
griffith

50 gusting 83kn
153kmh gust and they are four-hours from the center yet
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April 11, 2014 10:17pm
cha

And I just had to google…

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/antarctica/antartica11.htm
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April 11, 2014 10:27pm
Anthony

Not one single blog post on here today – that must be some kind of record! Probably a bit like a whiteboard for new ideas for Labour’s election campaign!
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April 11, 2014 10:42pm
Sir Cullen's Sidekick

I will make the 300th comment by saying David Cunliffe is increasing his chances of becoming PM by not saying any dumb things for two days…..
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April 11, 2014 10:59pm

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