General Debate 13 April 2014

April 13th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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268 Responses to “General Debate 13 April 2014”

  1. wiseowl (869 comments) says:

    yay

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  2. holysheet (362 comments) says:

    yay 2

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  3. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    To me, you are a student. And you are my teacher.

    Morning KB commenters – yeehaa !!

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  4. wiseowl (869 comments) says:

    While I go to work today I will think of all those overpaid council staffers who are biking, boating,running, on their weekend off, while I earn enough to pay my rates.

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  5. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    “A CNN reporter has apologised for her story – titled “The Royal Bummer” – which poked fun at the Maori welcome for the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge earlier this week.

    The apology came after a New Zealander made an official complaint.

    Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/CNN-reporter-apologises-for-tone-of-Royal-Bummer/tabid/423/articleID/339896/Default.aspx#ixzz2yhlxq6kw

    Normally cultures melt but under biculturalism (or multiculturaism) culture is embedded in the political system.
    http://www.hrc.co.nz/race-relations/new-zealand-diversity-forum-2/

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  6. Pete George (23,474 comments) says:

    Hui-net versus the Internet?

    The Mana Party has decided to proceed with negotiations with Kim Dotcom, despite…

    Sue Bradford @suebr
    Mana discussions re alliance with Dotcom went late into the night: members not unanimous in support, strong resistance from some.

    Dotcom seems to have already decided but the Mana Party use a consultative process that could take a month.

    Dotcom and Mana are political chalk and cheese. Mana have wisely kept away from Coatesville and will stick to their core constituency and policies. Dotcom has to accommodate them.

    Will Dotcom become a disciple of Hone? Dotcom’s road to Rotorua?

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  7. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    There is something distinctly sleazy about the Mana-Dotcom smooching.

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  8. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    Changing policy expectations
    While useful, models do not capture all the effects policymakers expect from immigration.
    When New Zealand moved to increase the numbers and skills of immigrants in the 1980s
    and 1990s, policymakers appear to have considered that these changes had the potential
    to have major beneficial impacts on the New Zealand economy, reinforcing the gains from
    22
    the other liberalising and deregulating economic reforms undertaken during that period.
    At that time, it was considered that skills-focused inward migration could: improve growth
    by bringing in better quality human capital and addressing skills shortages; improve
    international connections and boost trade; help mitigate the effects of population ageing;
    and have beneficial effects on fiscal balance. As well as “replacing” departing
    New Zealanders and providing particular help with staffing public services (for example,
    medical professionals), it was believed that migration flows could be managed so as to
    avoid possible detrimental effects (such as congestion or poorer economic prospects) for
    existing New Zealanders.

    Since then, New Zealand has had substantial gross and net immigration, which has been
    relatively skill-focused by international standards. However, New Zealand’s economic
    performance has not been transformed. Growth in GDP per capita has been relatively
    lacklustre, with no progress in closing income gaps with the rest of the advanced world,
    and productivity performance has been poor. It may be that initial expectations about the
    potential positive net benefits of immigration were too high.

    Based on a large body of new research evidence and practical experience, the consensus
    among policymakers now is that other factors are more important for per capita growth
    23
    and productivity than migration and population growth. CGE modelling exercises for
    Australia and New Zealand have been influential in reshaping expectations.

    http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-policy/wp/2014/14-10
    Migration and Macroeconomic
    Performance in New Zealand:
    Theory and Evidence
    Julie Fry
    New Zealand Treasury Working Paper 14/10

    More migrants increase *our* incomes: NZIER
    11:38 AM Monday Feb 10, 2014
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11199333

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  9. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    wiseowl: Get it right, they are not council workers, they are employees. It pisses me off to see people with qualifications, and real employment, in your position, needing to work all sorts of hours to pay for left-wing bludgers with the qualifications of rodents; but they are loyal Labour/Green supporters . . . it effen stinks.

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  10. wiseowl (869 comments) says:

    It is clear that Nationals policy of 80,000 new immigrants per year is a danger to our future.

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  11. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    The person who started the petition against the CNN story about the “The Royal Bummer” says:

    “This sort of bigotry and uneducated satire is not welcome in the progressive society that we have here,” says petition organiser Jayden Evett.”

    “Progressive society”??? Hmmmm…..I smell a rat.

    The story was satire, something the reporter is known for, a bit of silly humour at worst.

    Have we become so intolerantly PC that even humour must be banished?

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  12. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “It is clear that Nationals policy of 80,000 new immigrants per year is a danger to our future.”

    Why?

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  13. Elaycee (4,372 comments) says:

    I see someone has already commented about it last night, but it’s worth repeating…

    Last night ‘HC’ said on GD (10.22pm) Now we heard on the TV news about the “poverty” that Kim Dotcom suffered. We hear about toast with sugar or ketchup and about an alcoholic father, while his mother worked three jobs.

    HC then pointed out this story by Dotcom was total bollocks.

    Schmitz was born in 1974 in Kiel, Germany, and grew up in northern Germany. His father piloted the luxury cruise liner “MS Deutschland.” His mother was a chef. He attended a posh boarding school, the Staatliche Internat Schloss Plön, and got his first computer when he was nine. Because gaming software cost too much for him to buy, he figured out how to make illegal copies and went into business selling them to friends for a few marks a piece.”

    http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/the-rise-and-fall-of-an-internet-heavyweight-mega-millionaire-kim-schmitz/c4s4546/

    Now, can we expect our lapdog, leftwing media to dare ask the question that screams to be asked?

    Fat chance. They’ll be too busy trying to find out whether the Minister of Justice invited her neighbour to her BBQ last night.

    We really deserve better from the MSM. But I’m not holding my breath… 8O

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  14. RF (1,380 comments) says:

    Reports of a massive earthquake in the Solomon Islands. I guess tidal wave warnings will follow,

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  15. duggledog (1,528 comments) says:

    If a picture is worth a thousand words, the one of Hadfield hitch hiking on the NZ Herald is worth just one: hatred. if I ever see the f***er hitching I’m going to pull over, then when he comes up to the passenger door I’m going to drive off.

    The article bangs on and on about the people of the Far North and how they want jobs, they want work, etc etc, no, most of them do not. Any work they do want, they want it to be right where they live and they want it to be easy and they want it to pay well. They’ll turn up if you’re lucky.

    They actually want ‘what’s owed to them because the white mofos stole our land’. That’s what they’ve been led to believe, and that’s why the entire West Coast of the region is f***ed, it’s infested with deadbeats, solo mums, feral offspring, gang members and young men who behave like gang members. The place is full of hatred and resentment – and Hadfield is their lightning rod. But they’re too stupid too understand he’s the sort of guy who wrecked the economy for them in the first place.

    If people up there wanted jobs they would get on the first plane to Southland and go pulling tits. Or they could look at selling up small parts of their vast amounts of useless tribal land and get some coin to develop it. There’s no money in kerosene weed and blackberry and gorse these days

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  16. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    I think there is a place for the Maori welcome just as we have swords (and whatever) when a foriegn leader surveys our troops. The problem is when archaic culture tries to mingle with modern culture in a modern society. What was appropriate for a tribe living by the sea isn’t appropriate fora large scale industrial society with division of labour. A Maori organisation and a non Maori organisation face the same problems.

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  17. Nookin (3,281 comments) says:

    Elaycee

    I am having trouble linking to all the charitable work that he must have undertaken in his avowed pursuit of his war against poverty and social injustice. Have you seen any reference? The only links I seem to find are those where he feeds his corpulent frame or even more corpulent ego — like flash cars, flash helicopters, sojourns at flash resorts, flash fireworks displays etc. Maybe Hone, being a principled campaigner for the poor and enemy of all things capitalistic can help. Do you think someone might ask him?
    Or is this a wedding founded on hate, division and an irrepressible urge to stay out of clink?

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  18. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    Elaycee (4,030 comments) says:
    Meteria Turie has a story about not being able to afford a dolls house and tea set. She thought she had one but her mother said she didn’t but she used it to demonstrate how deprived children live in a fantasy world.

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  19. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    hj,

    your argument makes no sense to me. Virtually all aspects of any given culture have “archaic” elements. If we banished everything that was not “modern” we would have no culture left at all.

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  20. itstricky (1,797 comments) says:

    While I go to work today I will think of all those overpaid council staffers who are biking,

    I have a volin out it the back if you want.

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  21. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    Why?

    Exactly Shawn. It’s a good thing. You must know plenty of retards who are saved the hassle of going to Asia to get a date.

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  22. OneTrack (3,020 comments) says:

    hj – “The apology came after a New Zealander made an official complaint.”

    Now THAT is truely cringeworthy. Have we really got that little confidence in ourselves that we have to complain when someone deigns to criticise “the culture”. Wah. Wah.

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  23. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    There’s that bad anger management again LRC. You really should get help with that.

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  24. OneTrack (3,020 comments) says:

    shawnlh – “There is something distinctly sleazy about the Mana-Dotcom smooching.”

    Just shows how easily people can be bought and that, to the left, money is the most important thing after all.

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  25. OneTrack (3,020 comments) says:

    Shawnlh – “Have we become so intolerantly PC that even humour must be banished?”

    This has been true in NZ for a long time. Heretics must be silenced.

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  26. Elaycee (4,372 comments) says:

    @hj (8.53am) Whilst you have attributed that comment to me, please note I didn’t say that.

    But it does suggest Meteria learned to tell porkies at an early age. :D

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  27. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    You’re absolutely right again Shawn – you know everything in the whole universe – your parents must’ve been so proud that they gave birth to such a big-brained uber-genius.

    I need your help with anger Shawn – anger is a big problem for me. We’re talking fucking serious supernova make the Incredible Hulk look like a crying little bitch defcon 10 levels of rage and fury.

    So seeing as you know everything Shawn – can we use KBGD as a little therapy session ? Help me Shawn – I need help from that sexylicious massive hard-on of an egghead of yours. Help me become more like you Shawn. I can’t afford Herbal Ignite Shawn – post something hot about theology – I’m begging you. Turn. Me. On. Shawn !!

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  28. wiseowl (869 comments) says:

    Well Shawn if you read hjs post and extrapolate from that ,throw in the experience from Europe and add some common sense reasoning you may come up with the answer.

    What we have in NZ is an unsupported policy of immigration purported to be good for the economy and it clear now it is not that simple.
    I am surrounded by immigrants that can’t speak English, have no skills and for the life of me I cannot see how they get into the country.

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  29. dime (9,849 comments) says:

    Loving that a rich euro has bought himself a bunch of Maoris. Bought cheap too.

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  30. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    LRC,

    Throwing temper tantrums again? Twice in one morning? Do you need a hug LRC? :)

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  31. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    I know your type Shawn – starts with a hug but wanting a tug. Not on the first date Shawn. Don’t make me angry Shawn.

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  32. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Oh, I don’t think making you angry would worry me too much. Plus you seem to do that pretty well on your own.

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  33. Nookin (3,281 comments) says:

    Talking about Metiria, I noted that she slated Key and Dunne because Dunne is involved in a charitable event that seeks donations from, among others, gambling sources. This is an unacceptable conflict.

    Is it time, perhaps, for the news media to ask her why this is a conflict of interest but her shareholding in an organic grain company does not pose any ethical problems when she denounces genetically modified grains? Really, isn’t a successful outcome of such a campaign the increase in value of her shareholding? After all, didn’t we see the value of some milk company soar because the minster of justice had a cup of milk? Wasn’t this damnatory of the minister who doesn’t have shares ( and nor does hubby)? Metiria wants to go further than promote. She wants to ban potential competition. Or do different rules apply?

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  34. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Wow. After all the hype I was really looking forward to the first season of ‘American Horror Story’ on DVD, but it was a serious disappointment. Mostly a whiny soap opera with the odd jumpy moment. Not a patch on Dexter or Breaking Bad.

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  35. dime (9,849 comments) says:

    Shawn – apparently season two is way better. I’ve never watched it though. Suspect it’s a chick show

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  36. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Season two is in the mail so I hope your right!

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  37. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    Fuck that was boring Shawn – come on mate. You can do better – have another crack. My knob is sorely disappointed. Give me something I can really use mate. How about a nice link to a selfie ? Only the finest quality French lingerie I hope – I don’t like the cheap shit.

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  38. Elaycee (4,372 comments) says:

    Nookin: I am having trouble linking to all the charitable work that he must have undertaken in his avowed pursuit of his war against poverty and social injustice. Have you seen any reference?

    I’ve just spent a few minutes searching, Nookin… but I can’t find a lot at all. In fact, there was nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zip. Zero.

    But fear not… our intrepid media will soon be on the case – they’ll soon be rushing to Dotcom’s rented pad to pound on the door and demand answers. Oops – what was that? A pterodactyl has just landed on our lawn! 8O

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  39. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    What the fuck happened to ‘Balanced Journalism’ in New Zealand??

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9936055/Healing-our-dark-heart

    This guy conveniently overlooks the fact that those animals training in the Ureweras were plotting and planning to massacre innocent New Zealanders…

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  40. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “But fear not… our intrepid media will soon be on the case”

    Heh, looks like a Tui ad to me. :)

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  41. stephieboy (2,788 comments) says:

    I wonder if a lot of this wailing and railing against multiculturalism and all things Maori is just a disguised form of a hankering for a Whites for N Z only policy.??
    it liken tomasking the deluded rants of 9/11 Truthers Is an insidious anti semitism and hatred of Jews.!

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  42. Elaycee (4,372 comments) says:

    And whilst our media is still screaming headlines / breaking news and telling us there is a tsunami ‘watch’ for NZ, the Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre in Hawaii actually cancelled the tsunami alert at 0936NZT. And this includes the previous alert for the Solomon Islands themselves!

    I wonder how long it will take for the NZ media to realise…. and to change their updates / ‘warnings’….

    http://ptwc.weather.gov/text.php?id=pacific.TSUPAC.2014.04.12.2136

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  43. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Iv’e never seen any hard evidence for the claims that anyone was plotting real terrorism. The raids look like a major over reaction to pretty sketchy evidence.

    The settlement with Tuhoe is a good thing, long overdue.

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  44. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    Ten posts and it’s not even 10am. I don’t who’s got the record for one day. Griff ? Phil U ? Johnboy ?

    You’re still better than Shortland St Shawn. Keep going all day. Shit – there’s another fourteen hours for you to fill yet. I can’t wait. No theology would be such a downer. Please throw in some religious stuff. I love good fiction.

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  45. dime (9,849 comments) says:

    Or a everyone is sick of having super citizens. Signed by kiwis, Chinese, Samoans, Tongans, South Africans, English, Koreans etc etc

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  46. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    the fact that those animals training in the Ureweras were plotting and planning to massacre innocent New Zealanders

    Why do you say that, Longknives?

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  47. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Awww, I have a fan! One who actually counts my posts! :)

    Or is he a stalker?

    Either way I must be doing something right! :)

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  48. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    7.
    Nana et. al. (2009) simulated the macroeconomic impact of an increase in immigration on
    the New Zealand economy using a CGE model. This model was based on an earlier CGE
    study by Poot et. al. (1988), which was originally based on an earlier Australian model by
    Dixon et. al. (1982). Raising the inflow of migrants by 20,000 per annum increased the
    resident population by 6.1 percent over 15 years, to 4.81 million in 2021. Relative to the
    baseline, annual GDP growth rose by half a percentage point to 3.6 percent, and real
    GDP per capita rose by 1.5 percent over the entire 15 year simulation period. The
    increase in GDP per capita arises because the additional migrants are more likely to be of
    27
    working age than the resident population. Capital is assumed to increase in response to
    28
    increased labour supply to maintain the capital labour ratio.
    Both input and output prices
    are lower relative to the baseline (reflecting increased supply). Lower prices improve
    international competitiveness.29

    In this model, the additional economic activity is skewed towards relatively labour-
    intensive industries (including tourism and other service exports) which benefit from the
    30
    lower wages associated with increased labour supply. As a corollary, relatively capital-
    intensive industries do not benefit.

    Model assumptions were varied to assess effects on productivity. Of all the assumptions
    tested, only when immigration is assumed to lead to productivity improvements are
    significant benefits generated above baseline.

    Increasing competitiveness via lower wages induced through increased labour supply
    from immigration is an important driver of the model’s results. In contrast, most
    discussions of the possibility of lower wages as a consequence of immigration consider
    these as a cost felt by resident workers, as discussed in section 3.2 below.
    Most theory
    and research on benefits from immigration focuses on increasing wages through raising
    skills, skill complementarity, and scale effects leading to productivity and thus higher
    wages.

    Further, adding more labour to reduce wages seems a counterintuitive strategy for an
    31
    economy that has been characterised as “capital shallow”. New Zealand already has
    relatively low wages for a developed economy (consistent with our relatively low labour
    productivity) and arguably only used up available labour supply at the peak of the
    32
    business cycle in 2008. The Nana reasoning is also in direct contrast with Reddell’s
    (2013a) hypothesis that increased immigration hurts export price competitiveness.

    Reflecting the role of assumptions in driving the conclusions of CGE modelling, there is
    still considerable debate about the potential for migration to lead to large positive or
    negative effects. Between the possibility of effects not captured in the model and the role
    of assumptions, the New Zealand CGE modelling does not rule out large positive or
    negative effects cancelling one another out, or occurring in the future. Arguments
    concerning large positive and negative effects are examined below.

    So how much per hour does a driver of one of these pieces of capital earn? One driver with over 30 years service earns $15.50/hour. Whats more competition on other services comes from foreign speaking migrants with a natural advantage over NZ born.

    https://www.railbusnewzealand.com/bus/operators

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  49. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    “Iv’e never seen any hard evidence for the claims that anyone was plotting real terrorism. The raids look like a major over reaction to pretty sketchy evidence.”

    You don’t consider planning to blow up dams and kill people Terrorism?
    What a strange little world you live in Shawn…..

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  50. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Longknives,

    But where is the real evidence? It may well be there, but if so the Police did a pretty bad job in making their case, which is why the charges were downgraded.

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  51. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    The Mountie always gets his man

    Two large retailers took a giant step towards establishing themselves in Queenstown following a decision by two independent hearings commissioners released yesterday.

    Commissioners Jane Taylor and David Clarke, both of Queenstown, conditionally granted Mitre 10 Mega and Pak’n Save resource consent to build stores in the Shotover Park development on the Frankton Flats.

    The battle between developer Alistair Porter, chief executive of the Porter Group, and the Queenstown Lakes District Council to have the site rezoned dates back to 2011 and has been heard by the Environment Court, the High Court and the Appeal Court.

    Mrs Taylor said in the consent decision to ”decline consent … in the face of the substantial body of evidence in support of large-format retail activities … would be inappropriate”.

    ”In summary, we find that the proposal will *promote economic growth* in the Queenstown district and will allow the community to provide for its social and economic needs,” she said.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/queenstown-lakes/298689/pakn-save-mega-get-consent

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  52. Viking2 (11,412 comments) says:

    Longknives (4,033 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 9:36 am

    What the fuck happened to ‘Balanced Journalism’ in New Zealand??

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9936055/Healing-our-dark-heart
    =================================================

    Kutia is typical of many Tuhoe – 75 per cent of whom are on some sort of benefit.

    Tuhoe, last time I looked had some 30,000 decedents registered. Most do not live within the area and many many of them are in well paid jobs throughout the country.
    Our company has employed 4 or 5 over the last several years. All nice people, humorous, hard working, considerate and generous.

    My experience of them and the park prior to DOC being formed was always good.

    Unfortunately some judge them on what they see making headlines, not sensible at all. That’s like saying all pakeha are visitors to NZ. Plain stupid.

    Longknives you need to get out more and go meet some instead of interviewing your prejudices gained from your computer screen.
    Indeed start by reading encircled Lands or about Rua Kananwa in the book Mihaia both by Judith Binney.
    Both books are/were the only books that have been written and published about any Tribal History.

    While Iti was never a saint he was also not well liked by many of the tribe.
    Iti blames Clark for the last fiasco but if you read the book Mihaia you will see that there is another name running through their history. One called Cullen. Both times they were raided a Cullen has been involved.( For the Bain freaks Davids mother was a Cullen. Read the book).

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  53. kowtow (8,315 comments) says:

    shawn

    We have the evidence of our own eyes.

    The footage of the accused walking/patrolling military style through the bush was enough for me.(Hunting? Pull the other one)

    The fact is the evidence didn’t meet the very high standards that our courts ,rightly demanded for a succesful prosecution,but it was still evidence.

    Proving terrorism must be very hard.Just look at how hard it’s been to bring the Omagh bombers to book.

    Our security services are absolutely correct to investigate and prosecute.It’s then up to the courts to judge.

    I can’t help get the feeling that the very people (including the vociferous MSM)who criticise the security services for investigating and prosecuting these folk would be the very first to criticise if they failed in their duty to protect the citizenry, if and when a terrorist outrage does take place here in newly multicultural Aotearoa,formerly New Zealand.

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  54. wat dabney (3,724 comments) says:

    Another thread full of hj’s endless racist bigotry.

    What joy.

    And what a happy person he must be.

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  55. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    Of course they’re just ordinary citizens.
    /

    https://twitter.com/noclador/status/454956073502261249/photo/1

    https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/455084131375144960/photo/1

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  56. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    People only start hating other cultures when they feel threatened by them.

    What is it you are all so scared of losing, that you have to hate Maori culture so passionately to make you feel less threatened?

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  57. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “We have the evidence of our own eyes. The footage of the accused walking/patrolling military style through the bush was enough for me.”

    That’s not evidence of any intent to commit terrorism. In fact, it’s not evidence of anything at all. And that’s the problem.

    I agree that potential terrorist threats should be taken very seriously. But this whole affair just reeks of over reaction.

    Oh and where I grew up people in camo hunting in the swamps and forests are a dime a dozen.

    Maybe there was something to the claims, but the police did such a spectacularly bad job that we will never know one way or another.

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  58. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    this whole affair just reeks of over reaction.

    No it doesn’t. It reeks of procedural error which prevents the evidence that supported the original charges from being laid before the court.

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  59. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (1,630 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 10:40 am

    I totally agree with you Shawn. This is just an over reaction.

    For several decades we have run similar type activities for youths. Running around the bush, teaching survival and defense skills, but because the leaders of such courses are European, it’s acceptable and no one complains, in fact they give them praise for running such courses. Get some Maori doing the same, and suddenly people feel ‘threatened’.

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  60. Viking2 (11,412 comments) says:

    Well then what about this shit. Its a rort supported by a National Govt. to fund unions that fund Labour to remove the Govt. that’s paying their wages.

    Coleman is a softcock and useless if he thinks this is acceptable to Taxpayers.

    The minister in charge is State Services Minister Jonathan Coleman. He’s overseeing a rort that funds the Labour Party and bribes the staff of his own MPs to join unions dedicated to defeating them. Go figure.

    For years government departments have been running a scam for the unions. The amounts involved total in the millions. The scam diverts your tax dollars away from their proper purpose to the union movement. The scam thereby indirectly assists Labour. It’s shonky.

    The latest Government outfit engaging in the scam is Parliamentary Service. This is surprising. Parliamentary Service employs MPs’ staff and the many legions of people who make Parliament work. That includes MPs’ electorate agents, their office staff, the librarians, the cleaners and the messengers. To ensure a sound democracy and proper government the Parliamentary Service must be scrupulously fair and even-handed.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11237268

    sometimes we get left wondering what fucking brain power the Nats have.

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  61. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    Molotov Cocktail training and conversations about blowing up dams, killing the Prime Minister etc are ‘teaching Survival and Defence Skills’ Judith?

    Have you ever visited planet earth??

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  62. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Judith,

    Like I said above about the Royal Bummer affair sometimes the PC nuttiness get’s way out of hand, to the point where any humour with regards to non-Western cultures becomes taboo.

    On the other hand a casual glance at most KBGD threads does reveal a rather nasty level of racism with regards to anything Maori.

    Both extremes are unpalatable to me.

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  63. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Longknives (4,034 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 10:50 am

    There was no evidence of ‘blowing up the PM’ or half the things you people like to ‘shake in your boots’ over.

    Yes, they trained to do damage – just like all the other courses run in NZ over the last 5 few decades for youths. Part of the skills taught in these ‘bush’ courses involve ‘attack’ and well as defence strategies.

    You are ‘over reacting’ – what are you scared of?

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  64. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    So finding plots/plans to massacre innocent Kiwis abhorrent is “racism” Shawn?
    One wonders if you would be so supportive of Kyle Chapman and his bunch of looneys running around the bush planning to blow up dams and slaughter people….

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  65. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    There was no evidence of ‘blowing up the PM’ or half the things you people like to ‘shake in your boots’ over.

    Judith has it occurred to you there is evidence but it’s not allowed to be presented?

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  66. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    John Key himself did not take the “threat” seriously.

    If you bugged the meeting places of most hard left and hard right groups in NZ the police would be spending all their time chasing them down. People say stupid things. A fair amount of similar talk can be seen right here on KB at times.

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  67. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Longknives, you really should read peoples actual words and respond to them, rather than re-interpreting them.

    Show me the evidence.

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  68. Pete George (23,474 comments) says:

    @The_Voltaire

    Religion is designed to divide the populace from each other, to keep their eyes on the imaginary pie in the sky.

    I don’t know if it’s been designed that way but it’s often worked that way. Religion versus religion, denomination versus denomination have battled and warred for a long time and still do.

    We’re fortunate in New Zealand that there’s hardly any of that here, apart from a bit of blog bickering and social debating.

    On Friday in a work situation I was in with people I have worked with for over a decade someone asked out of the blue: “what religion do you follow?”

    The answers:
    1. “I presume you’re some sort of atheist?” – I am.
    2. Grew up an Anglican, currently prefers the local Presbyterian church.
    3 & 4. A couple who are involved in their local church but I still don’t know what denomination.

    And none of that matters here, one reason why New Zealand is one of the best countries in the world to live in.

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  69. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    A very well written piece by David Farrar-

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/11/the_terror_evidence_made_public.html

    “The revelations might cause a few people to pause before they acclaim those arrested as peaceful heroes.”

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  70. Viking2 (11,412 comments) says:

    Ha, the police can’t catch burglars but they can run a conspiracy theory and run FBI type raids on harmless people. Just like they do when they attack the Hells angels and the like.
    can’t ever remember a helicopter being used to raid a gang patch, can you????

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  71. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Reid (15,471 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 10:56 am

    Reid, their strategies and plans were no different to any of the other such courses run in New Zealand, and have been run for many years as a means of providing positive direction for our youths.

    Making Molotov cocktails has been taught on these courses as a means of ‘defence’ when resources are limited. Planning to ‘attack’ opposing groups etc is also part of the groups activities – each team planning and practicing to both attack and defend.

    The only difference here is the names used. We’ve become hyper sensitive to anything Maori — and that is because we feel threatened by them – why is that? Why aren’t you threatened by a group of european youths doing the same, but when Maori do it – you over react, presume its dooms day and call for blood?

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  72. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    Judith (5,624 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 10:40 am

    People only start hating other cultures when they feel threatened by them.

    What is it you are all so scared of losing, that you have to hate Maori culture so passionately to make you feel less threatened?
    ……..
    Because biculturalism is political: taxpayer institutions uphold and promote it. A society is defined by it’s culture, if you have more than one culture you have more than one society in a national boundary competing for the same resources and identity of that society.
    It is narcissistic policy . Humans want to form social ligatures, to live in one society (one for one and all for all), to know the neighbours and peoples history. It is narcissistic because the center is trying to tell the rest of the wheel how to see the world.

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  73. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Reid, their strategies and plans were no different to any of the other such courses run in New Zealand, and have been run for many years as a means of providing positive direction for our youths.

    So Judith you’re saying there are “courses” all around the country all the time that [from the link longknives gave above] teach:

    · Vehicle ambushes and military-style drills with live rounds.

    · “Terrifying” counter-interrogation training, including holding guns to participants’ backs and accusing one of being a police informant.

    · How to throw Molotov cocktails.

    · How to extract colleagues under rifle fire.

    In the background to the affidavit, police say one trainee using the codename Bl@ckmask hacked into the National Party website in 2004.

    …At the last of the camps, police say surveillance picked up 18 people and 14 firearms.

    Really?

    Why aren’t you threatened by a group of european youths doing the same, but when Maori do it – you over react, presume its dooms day and call for blood?

    Don’t be stupid. It’s always been perfectly obvious to anyone with intuition and common sense to know that the police didn’t overreact but that when they weren’t allowed to produce the evidence the lefty media jumped all over it and useful idiots like you and Shawn got totally sucked in by the meme. That’s all that’s happened here. You believe they were persecuted because you want to believe it, not because it’s true.

    While I know you’re a lefty I also know you’ve got a 3-digit IQ and I’m surprised you weren’t more discerning. I’m not surprised Shawn’s being a useful idiot of course, that’s what he’s good at after all.

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  74. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Longknives (4,036 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 11:01 am

    So DPF feels as threatened as you? No surprises there.

    The ‘revelations’ showed nothing more than what is seen on many courses throughout NZ.
    I don’t think anyone, even the people themselves were passing themselves off as ‘peaceful heroes’, Maori, like Europeans feel threatened. They feel that way because they have lost so much and are scared they will lose ‘themselves’ and be made to be just like you – you are scared because you might lose your precious $$$$ and if that happens you might have to be just like them. :-)

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  75. wat dabney (3,724 comments) says:

    Oh Fuck. And now Reid’s here.

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  76. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Judith
    I’d like to see some evidence that any course for youth has included teaching them how to make molotov cocktails. It certainly wasn’t part of bush craft when I was a Scout.
    That you can brush off the summary of evidence in DPF’s post says something about you.

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  77. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “A society is defined by it’s culture, if you have more than one culture you have more than one society in a national boundery competing for the same resources.”

    It’s impossible to have only one culture in virtually any nation. Unless your suggesting that every other culture other than British be allowed, the “one culture” idea is absurd.

    And unnecessary. Having more than one culture in a nation does not drain resources.

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  78. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Reid (15,472 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 11:06 am

    Yes, REALLY. (Although I can’t record any of the youth camps hacking into the National party website – but as our PM says, if you’re not doing anything wrong, you’ve got no need to worry if people go looking at your private conversations etc so I’m sure that can’t have been a big worry ) ;-)

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  79. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    I’m surprised that Reid is not claiming that the raids were a Zionist false flag operation. :)

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  80. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Not everything’s a Zionist false flag operation Shawn. Just more often than you think.

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  81. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Yeah, I suspect nothing ever is Reid. But I’m leaving that alone today, otherwise LRC might pop up and start talking about his erection again.

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  82. dime (9,849 comments) says:

    lmao thick legged kiwi bikini skanks told to lose weight before competing internationally.

    “Organisers of a national bikini contest have controversially told participants they need to lose weight if they want to compete with slimmer international contestants.”

    OMG! that is so controversial! whats next? a guy told he wont do well at a body building comp if he is rocking 30% body fat?

    The media wont rest until every kiwi woman is fat and arrogant about it.. and single.. and bitter.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11237319

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  83. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ mikenmild (8,645 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 11:10 am

    I didn’t say ‘Scouts’ – I was talking about courses run for youths. I can think of one in particular run in Tongarioro National Park that actually made the headlines during the 1980’s for letting the youths use live rounds etc.

    And what about the Territorials? Isn’t that doing exactly the same thing with our youths too?
    I’m not saying I approve of what was being done, but it is a weak argument to complain just because these people were Maori, when we quite happily allow others to behave the same way and even support it. Just because one is government sanctioned doesn’t make the behaviour any more respectable.

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  84. kowtow (8,315 comments) says:

    Being concerned about the politically driven changes to the cultural and racial constitution of New Zealand,which have not been specifically approved by the electorate is not racist bigotry.

    To call it that is a blatant attempt to stifle free speech and debate.Cornerstones of democracy.

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  85. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    wat dabney (3,414 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 10:31 am

    Another thread full of hj’s endless racist bigotry.
    …….
    I wonder if reporting:

    Migration and Macroeconomic
    Performance in New Zealand:
    Theory and Evidence
    Julie Fry
    New Zealand Treasury Working Paper 14/10

    would breach broadcasting standards?
    I’d say it would be close to the wind!?
    http://www.slideshare.net/nzhumanrights

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  86. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ mikenmild (8,645 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 11:10 am

    A summary of evidence that when presented in court didn’t make the grade?

    Just because the police say something happened a certain way, doesn’t mean it did. Remember that shell that landed in the Crewe’s garden when AAT shot them through the louvre windows? :-) The summary of evidence isn’t always correct.

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  87. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Kowtow,

    When people use phrases like “stone age culture” that is racism. Debating constitutional issues is fine, but the way the rhetoric is phrased here at KB often goes well beyond that.

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  88. Elaycee (4,372 comments) says:

    @Longknives: When DPF’s article appeared, there was uncertainty whether the Police affidavit was still suppressed or not (and perhaps that is why it wasn’t linked – I don’t know).

    But anyone interested could see it for themselves… hypothetically, if someone was to Google the words ‘Police’, ‘Affidavit’ and ‘Urewera’ I suspect there would be several sites containing the entire 155 pages – all ready for downloading.

    IMO, it’s a ‘Who’s Who’ of political dissidents in NZ. And it’s a chilling read…

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  89. dime (9,849 comments) says:

    “What is it you are all so scared of losing, that you have to hate Maori culture so passionately to make you feel less threatened?”

    i think most of us just have the shits with the maori elite. the leaders of “maoridom” lmao such a noble, made up word.

    as a people, maori are going down hill fast. the last 30 years havent been kind. i feel sorry for most maori nowadays. the people that apprently represent them need a bullet.

    a classic example is that piece of shit willie jackson and his rich mate. sure, they do a few good things, then they try and swindle 500 stacks out of the govt as the cost of handing out.. free money ffs.

    nothing seems to filter down in the maori world.

    the left bang on about inequality, the haves and have nots, maybe they should look to maori for some easy examples.

    youd think the biggest issue for maori would be “hey guys, stop beating your kids and for gods sake stop killing them”. but ah no, its all about what happened 100 years ago and making sure some naked ass maori is there to shove a spear in the princes face etc etc

    Dime suspects the answers to helping maori people arent very “PC”, so they wont happen. maoris will end up like abos and american indians. sad.

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  90. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    OMG Judith, you are seriously deranged on this one. The evidence was never presented in court because it was ruled that it had been collected illegally. That doesn’t mean a court didn’t believe the evidence. As for your argument that the government does the same thing when it trains the army: words fail me.

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  91. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    it is a weak argument to complain just because these people were Maori, when we quite happily allow others to behave the same way and even support it

    Judith I guarantee you that if any group went and did what these dudes did the police would do precisely the same thing, except this time they’d be able to show the court the evidence.

    Guarantee it.

    The race thing is a meme, partly because Tuhoe seem to have a vengence streak running through their veins and they like to stick it to the “man” (i.e. us) every single chance they get, partly because the media are 95% lefty fools with bleeding hearts that weep all over the place and stop them from thinking straight (e.g. look at Zaoui) and partly cos there is heaps of money in it, eh, if the guv’ment can be “proved” to have acted like a gweat big meany.

    The summary of evidence isn’t always correct.

    Video doesn’t lie Judith. That’s what’s waiting to be revealed.

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  92. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    What mikenmild said..Seriously fucking deranged!

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  93. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    ” maoris will end up like abos and american indians. sad”

    And the common denominator for all three groups is what? Colonisation, cultural destruction, dispossession of land.

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  94. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    And the common denominator for all three groups is what? Colonisation, cultural destruction, dispossession of land.

    That all sounds too complicated and makes me feel like someone might take my stuff. Can you rephrase it in a way that blames it on brown skin?

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  95. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ dime (8,710 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 11:23 am

    First of all, I don’t know how anyone who isn’t Maori has the right to tell Maori what it is they want.

    “hey guys, stop beating your kids and for gods sake stop killing them”.

    It is not only Maori that kill their kids, there are plenty of other cultures represented in the statistics and there is plenty of other incidences that you don’t ever get to hear about.

    Last month, a the Rydges Hotel in Wellington a young child (female) drowned in the bath. The coroner decided she had been left under water for more than five minutes, without anyone checking on her. It NEVER even made the papers, despite the police being called etc.
    And why not? Because the parents, wealthy and white, and the hotel, being a big business, made a determined effort to ensure the Police did not make any press releases.

    If that had been a Maori child in South Auckland, they would have been all over it. Yes, Maori children have died in circumstances where they shouldn’t have – but so have European children – only it gets handled differently.

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  96. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    @ Judith
    tell me how the two cultures will get along in Aotearoa:

    Brash’s eager anticipation of the growth of a single multi-ethnic New Zealand race is prefaced by a discussion which takes us back to the days when it was thought that identity could be measured by blood quantum. His focus on the amount of intermarriage that has taken place and the fact that anthropologists say there are no full-blooded Mäori left in the country can only be described as bizarre: many of us thought that such ideas had been safely put to rest thirty years ago. Brash’s vision of a “multi-cultural melting pot” future whereby we will all be merged into one people is so out-of-date that it would almost be entertaining were it not so blatantly assimilationist. Entertainment aside, a central feature of Brash’s argument is the somewhat petulant insistence that non-Mäori have just as much right to be here as Mäöri.

    While neither Mallard nor King hankers for the day when we will all be one people, their claim to indigeneity is similarly an assertion of their right to be here. But what does such an assertion really entail? Avril Bell has this to say about the Päkehä claim to indigeneity:
    If Pakeha are to be indigenous they are cut off from their history as the descendants and inheritors of the privileges of the colonisers of Aotearoa. This history is discarded as Pakeha are ‘born’ post colonisation out of the New Zealand soil. Such a move represents a desire to be ‘born again’ New Zealanders, disowning their parents and imagining themselves adopted . . .
    Little wonder, perhaps, that Päkehä seem to suffer from a deep-rooted sense of insecurity about their identity. From a Mäori perspective, there is almost an element of desperation in this quest for indigeneity, calling to mind John Mulgan’s description of Päkehä as being “a queer, lost, eccentric, pervading people looking for satisfaction”.

    Are we all New Zealanders now? A Mäori response to the Päkehä quest for indigeneity.
    Ani Mikaere
    http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/iwi-am04.pdf

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  97. wat dabney (3,724 comments) says:

    When people use phrases like “stone age culture” that is racism.

    Well, is it? Or is is a technically correct description?

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  98. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    Well, is it? Or is is a technically correct description?

    It can be both.

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  99. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    @ Judith
    tell me how the two cultures will get along in Aotearoa:

    Brash’s eager anticipation of the growth of a single multi-ethnic New Zealand race is prefaced by a discussion which takes us back to the days when it was thought that identity could be measured by blood quantum. His focus on the amount of intermarriage that has taken place and the fact that anthropologists say there are no full-blooded Mäori left in the country can only be described as bizarre: many of us thought that such ideas had been safely put to rest thirty years ago*. Brash’s vision of a “multi-cultural melting pot” future whereby we will all be merged into one people is so out-of-date that it would almost be entertaining were it not so blatantly assimilationist. Entertainment aside, a central feature of Brash’s argument is the somewhat petulant insistence that non-Mäori have just as much right to be here as Mäöri.

    While neither Mallard nor King hankers for the day when we will all be one people, their claim to indigeneity is similarly an assertion of their right to be here. But what does such an assertion really entail? Avril Bell has this to say about the Päkehä claim to indigeneity:
    If Pakeha are to be indigenous they are cut off from their history as the descendants and inheritors of the privileges of the colonisers of Aotearoa. This history is discarded as Pakeha are ‘born’ post colonisation out of the New Zealand soil. Such a move represents a desire to be ‘born again’ New Zealanders, disowning their parents and imagining themselves adopted . . .
    Little wonder, perhaps, that Päkehä seem to suffer from a deep-rooted sense of insecurity about their identity. From a Mäori perspective, there is almost an element of desperation in this quest for indigeneity, calling to mind John Mulgan’s description of Päkehä as being “a queer, lost, eccentric, pervading people looking for satisfaction”.

    Are we all New Zealanders now? A Mäori response to the Päkehä quest for indigeneity.
    Ani Mikaere
    http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/iwi-am04.pdf

    * she sidesteps an argument there. It is o.k to choose your cultural identity (when only left toe is Maori) but it isn’t o.k to use it against wider society.

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  100. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    youd think the biggest issue for maori would be “hey guys, stop beating your kids and for gods sake stop killing them”. but ah no, its all about what happened 100 years ago and making sure some naked ass maori is there to shove a spear in the princes face etc etc

    As I’ve said many times dime, they’re warriors. It’s in their genes. Warriors don’t take defeat very well, even if it was 5-10-15 generations ago. You can see precisely the same thing with the Canadian and American Indian populations.

    The progress they’ve made since the 1980’s has been achieved mostly by tapping into that and IMO that’s great. This is because being a warrior is all about the internal struggle – self-denial, self-discipline, wisdom, study, fitness, etc.

    At the moment they don’t have the self-confidence – as a people – and that comes through in their arrogance (which is a sign of insecurity, a coverup for the lack of it) and it also comes through in the way that a very large proportion of them are still employed one way or another in taxpayer-supported or funded ventures. Whether that be in govt depts, or trusts or QUANGOs or whatever. But once the children of all these Maori who have worked all their lives graduate from university then many of them will start on the road that we pakeha middle-class have always been on and that’s when things will begin to really change. Because Maori are still at heart a tribal people and when the next generation of these now-professional people go back to their home Maraes, they won’t stand around and let their brethren wallow in the mud of unemployment, drugs and self-pity. That won’t start to happen for another 25 or so years, but it will happen, and when it does they will beat the pants of your average pakeha, they really will.

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  101. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Stone age

    The Stone Age is a broad prehistoric period during which stone was widely used to make implements with a sharp edge, a point, or a percussion surface. The period lasted roughly 3.4 million years, and ended between 6000 BCE and 2000 BCE with the advent of metalworking.[1] Stone Age artifacts include tools used by humans and by their predecessor species in the genus Homo, as well as the earlier partly contemporaneous genera Australopithecus and Paranthropus. Bone tools were used during this period as well but are rarely preserved in the archaeological record. The Stone Age is further subdivided by the types of stone tools in use.

    Prehistory (meaning “before history”, or “before knowledge acquired by investigation”

    from the Latin word for “before,” præ, and historia) is the span of time before recorded history or the invention of writing systems. Prehistory refers to the period of human existence before the availability of those written records with which recorded history begins.[1] More broadly, it can refer to all the time preceding human existence and the invention of writing.

    culture

    Specifically, the term “culture” in American anthropology had two meanings:
    the evolved human capacity to classify and represent experiences with symbols, and to act imaginatively and creatively; andthe distinct ways that people, who live differently, classified and represented their experiences, and acted creatively.[2]
    Hoebel describes culture as an integrated system of learned behavior patterns which are characteristic of the members of a society and which are not a result of biological inheritance.[3]

    PRE-HISTORIC STONE-AGE CULTURE!!!!!! understand english now nursey and spawn ???

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  102. Jack5 (5,051 comments) says:

    Ahoy Pete George from Dunedin!

    Is Dunedin’s mayor, David Cull, a Maori, or just a wannabe Maori?

    Against polled public opinion, Cull used his casting vote to prefix the name of the European settlers’ museum in Dunedin, with the word “Toitu”. He has said he is using increasing amounts of Maori language in his conversation, and now he has put Maori right at the front of the welcome to Dunedin for the Cambridges’ royal visit. This in one of the world’s most Scottish cities outside Scotland.

    If Cull is Ngai Tahu or from a browner shade of Maori that’s one thing, but if he’s a pakeha multiculturalist that’s altogether another matter.

    If the latter, what are Dunedinites – men or dung beetles?

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  103. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “Well, is it? Or is is a technically correct description?”

    It can be both. Given the way that it is often used here on KB, there is more than a hint of racism, as in “they are just backwards fuzzy wuzzies who refuse to join the glorious modern world.”

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  104. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    Fuck. The synchronicity is getting crazy. Precisely as I was reading Reid’s comment, Sherlock Holmes started talking about the “warrior gene” on the episode of Elementary I’m watching.

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  105. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Reid (15,474 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 11:26 am

    Can you blame them for not wanting to stick it ‘white man’ as you so eloquently put it?

    A once mighty Iwi, one of the strongest in NZ were dis-empowered by the actions of ‘white man’.

    This year Scotland votes on the Independence issue – economically not a good choice, but for a race of people that were oppressed by another, some Scots feel very strongly about gaining their ‘freedom’. Centuries later, some still smart from pain caused to their ancestors and so that independence is more important to them than the money.

    The Scots tried to do it with weapons and violence for several hundreds years – less than 200 years ago they were still trying.

    I don’t necessary approve of what Tuhoe did, but I sure as hell can understand why they were doing it. Like it or not – we ‘white man’ have a lot to answer to – we are not superior we are only equal.

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  106. dime (9,849 comments) says:

    “And the common denominator for all three groups is what? Colonisation, cultural destruction, dispossession of land.”

    the problem is shawn, when you compare maori to abos and american indians in the 70s, maori were well ahead.

    they are going downhill fast.

    with the cnages in our society – free money, no need to work etc there are a lot of people going backwards. BUT maori have the added bonus of being told that they own the place, nothing is their fault, they are owed millions etc etc generations are going to be ost, waiting for a pay cheque that will never come. that is sad.

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  107. lilman (953 comments) says:

    Really you guys?

    We all know the Maori activists were not activists,they were training for a paper round,right Judith?

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  108. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Heh, I watched that episode on DVD last night Ryan. Bloody good series. I think it may actually be better than the Brit one.

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  109. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ griffith (702 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 11:40 am

    Yes Griffith – just like all human cultures, Maori were once a ‘prehistoric stone age culture’ so what is your point exactly?

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  110. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ lilman (656 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 11:43 am

    Difficulty with reading Lilman?

    I said they were training to attack and defend – just like other ‘sanctioned’ groups do and have done.

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  111. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Tuhoe never signed the Treaty. By their understanding they are an invaded nation under occupation. And both historically and morally, they are right. National deserves credit for the settlement that will go a long way towards righting a historic wrong.

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  112. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Name some groups that are ‘sanctioned’ to prepare molotov cocktails, Judith.

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  113. Fletch (6,294 comments) says:

    Interesting.

    Over in the U.S, Obama’s press secretary, Jay Carney, had a magazine piece done on him and his family, replete with photos taken in his home, and what do we see on the walls? Two Soviet, Communist era propaganda posters.

    One of Carney’s posters is a version of this iconic design by artist Dmitry Moor with a soldier pointing his finger alongside text that says “Have YOU Enlisted?” in Russian:

    The other poster features a female factory worker. According to this eBay seller, who is offering one for $US1,660, the poster was printed on June 26, 1941, days after Russia began fighting the Axis powers in World War II. It encourages women take jobs vacated by men who have gone to fight. The woman in the poster is switching out a tag with a man’s name to one with hers and the text says: “Women! Learn production, replace workers who went to the front! The stronger the hinterland – the stronger the front!”

    Carney and Shipman have a lot of history with Russia. They met in Moscow in the 1990s while he was writing for Time and she worked for CNN. Carney did not respond to a request for comment from Business Insider Friday.

    http://www.mediaite.com/online/three-pictures-in-washington-monthly-that-make-jay-carney-look-ridiculous/

    http://www.businessinsider.com.au/soviet-propaganda-posters-jay-carney-2014-4

    Also interesting (that one of the links above points out), is that in one of the photos where Carney stands in front of a book shelf, many of the book names of the spines have been cloned out (to the point that one of his children’s fingers has been cloned along with it). I wonder what those book titles were, that they didn’t want people to see, ey?

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  114. Jack5 (5,051 comments) says:

    ShawnLH posted at 11.49:

    …National deserves credit for the settlement that will go a long way towards righting a historic wrong…

    Or maybe the ascetic Chris Finlayson, National’s Minister of Treaty Settlements and earlier a leading figure (acting for the tribe) in Ngai Tahu’s claim and settlement, is flailing the whole country’s back under the subconscious influence of his own beliefs and psychology.

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  115. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Jack, that statement makes no sense. And by that I don’t mean I disagree, I mean it is literally is incomprehensible. What was your point exactly?

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  116. stephieboy (2,788 comments) says:

    Quote mining the 9/11 Truther way : a notorious example is the following,

    “Quote Mining the Witnesses:

    Truthers often quote mine the witness statements to try and prove that there is a conspiracy by the FDNY, Larry Silverstein & the U.S. Government. Example: Larry Silverstein’s “Pull it” comment:

    “I remember getting a call from the Fire Department commander, telling me they were not sure they were gonna to be able to contain the fire, and I said, you know, “We’ve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is just pull it.” And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.”

    Truthers have tried, in vain, to prove that Larry Silverstein wanted to demolish World Trade Center 7 with explosives. They quote mine his statement & misrepresent everything that he said. Let’s break down his statement to make it clear that he didn’t give out orders to the FDNY to have WTC7 CDed (Controlled Demolitioned):

    “I remember getting a call from the Fire Department commander,….”

    He was talking with the FDNY commander at the time, not a Controlled Demolishes Expert!

    “telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire.”

    WTC7 had uncontrollable fires and the firefighters couldn’t fight it because the water mains were already broken by the collapse of WTC 1 and 2.

    “I said: “We’ve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is just pull it.” And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.”

    The term “Pull it” is a firefighter term that means: “Cease all operations and pull all available firemen out of the building.” Because WTC7 was on fire and it was leaning in certain areas and groaning. The ISO, or Incident Safety Officer, determined that the building wasn’t structrually sound and he made a decision to pull the rescue operation and save the firefighters from certain death. Truthers often use this tactic so they can try and make a “point”.

    But its not the only example and its a deception used with other Conspiracy theories especially directed against Jews. The founder of modern zionism , Theodor Herzl presents an excellent example how his writings quotes are distorted and taken entirely out of context,

    http://911truthersexposed.blogspot.co.nz/

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  117. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    The synchronicity is getting crazy.

    You should start trying to emulate me even more then Ryan, imagine how successful you’d become.

    Can you blame them for not wanting to stick it ‘white man’ as you so eloquently put it?…I don’t necessary approve of what Tuhoe did, but I sure as hell can understand why they were doing it. Like it or not – we ‘white man’ have a lot to answer to – we are not superior we are only equal.

    Yes I do blame them to the extent that they have bought their current circumstances on themselves, as everyone does. Simple example: imagine if you paid yourself a ‘wage’ of 10% of everything you had ever earned since the very first dollar and you’d never ever touched it. I don’t care how much you’ve earned, you sure as heck wouldn’t be living in a tin shack would you. OTOH the Dicken’s example: Income 10 pounds six shillings and threepence. Expenditure 10 pounds seven shillings ninepence. Result: misery. Income 10 pounds six shillings and threepence. Expenditure 10 pounds five shillings and three pence. Result: happiness.

    You can apply that to any life area: education, finance, health, bringing up children, whatever. And it’s free. It doesn’t cost anything. It’s called attitude.

    If you wallow around in anger and self-pity blaming everything and everyone else for your wretched and miserable life then this is your fault. You don’t have to be like that. You can choose not to be. And it doesn’t cost anything because attitude is free.

    And this, to a very very very large extent, is what Maori who live in wretched circumstances have done. To themselves. Their parents did it to them and they have done it to their children and their children will do it to their children. This is why people in Te Tai Tokerau live like they do.

    Sure, what they need is a hand, consisting of education, to explain to them how to stop doing it and to start doing the other things which will lead them out of misery and into happiness. But no-one, least of all the taxpayer, is going to come in and pick them bodily up, swaddle them in fluffy bunnies and cuddle the poor widdle darlings cos they’ve been so oppwessed and you know why? Because that’s not going to work. For it to work, THEY have got to do it themselves. We can teach them how to fish, but they’re the ones who need to get up at 4.30AM in the middle of winter and go for their regular 5 km run before breakfast and getting the kids up and ready for school.

    And the reason why nothing is happening on this front is because all the programs and all the “clients” are taking the cotton-wool approach and expectation and it’s like pouring money into a black hole, it just disappears with no result because you simply can’t change something if you don’t address the root cause. Which is their own attitudes.

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  118. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The colonial period

    Tūhoe had little direct contact with the early European settlers.[1] The first major contact occurred when the iwi fought against the settler government in the battle of Ōrākau in 1864. Rewi Maniapoto, who had some tribal links to Tūhoe, visited the Urewera in 1862 and persuaded them to take part in the rebellion against the government; he went against the wishes of some of the elders. Initially reluctant, the Tūhoe gave Rewi ammunition to back the rebellion.[2][page needed] During a cease fire in the Battle of Orakau, under flag of truce, Gilbert Mair, a translator, was shot in the shoulder by a Tūhoe warrior. Nearly all the Tūhoe at the battle were killed.

    The following year authorities accused the Tūhoe of sheltering Kereopa Te Rau, a Hau Hau wanted for killing and beheading Karl Volkner, a missionary of the Church Missionary Society, in what was called the Volkner Incident. Initially the Tūhoe had cooperated in tracking down the Hau hau leader and had taken him prisoner. The Tūhoe tried to use him as a bargaining chip but the government demanded Te Rau be handed over for trial. After the Tūhoe released him, Te Rau hid in the Ureweras .[2] As punishment, in 1866 the government confiscated 5700ha or about 7% of Tūhoe land on its northern coastal border. The confiscated Tūhoe land adjoined the land confiscated from Bay of Plenty rebels after the battle of Gate Pā. The Crown took the Tūhoe’s only substantial flat, fertile land, which also provided their only access to the coast for kai moana (sea food).[2] The Tūhoe people retained only interior, more difficult land, setting the scene for later famines.[3]

    In 1868, Tūhoe sheltered the Māori leader Te Kooti, a fugitive who had escaped from imprisonment on the Chatham Islands. Te Kooti arrived in the area with a large group of escaped convicts, fully armed with modern weapons he had stolen from the ship he had hijacked. It is doubtful that the Tūhoe could have resisted his demands for sanctuary. Some Tūhoe joined his armed Ringatū band, but other Tūhoe told government forces of Te Kooti’s whereabouts. Some joined the armed forces to hunt him down. Government forces punished those Tūhoe who supported Te Kooti during the manhunt. Te Ara, the Online Encyclopedia of New Zealand, notes:

    “Old enemies of Tūhoe fought on the side of the government; they carried out most of the raids into Te Urewera during a prolonged and destructive search between 1869 and 1872. In a policy aimed at turning the tribe away from Te Kooti, a scorched earth campaign was unleashed against Tūhoe; people were imprisoned and killed, their cultivations and homes destroyed, and stock killed or run off. Through starvation, deprivation and atrocities at the hands of the government’s Māori forces, Tūhoe submitted to the Crown.”[4]

    After these events, Tūhoe isolated themselves, closing off access to their lands by refusing to sell, lease or survey them, and blocking the building of roads. Historian Jamie Belich describes the Urewera as one of the last zones of Māori autonomy and the scene of the last case of armed Māori resistance: in 1916 the New Zealand Police Force arrested the Tūhoe prophet Rua Kenana on charges of making illegal alcohol after a gun-battle in the Urewera left 10 people killed or wounded.[1] The police conducted the raid “like a military operation” entering alien territory.[5] Belich states that significant European penetration did not occur in the Urewera district until the 20th century. A road was built by the government from Rotorua to Ruatahuna in 1901 to end the isolation of Tūhoe by opening up the first motor road.

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  119. Jack5 (5,051 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (re your 12.00 post), it means that National’s Finlayson, who is driving the treaty settlements, is driven by personal motives.

    Would you like me to quote, yet again, from Finlayson’s maiden speech, his pride in what he achieved for Ngai Tahu.

    Incomprehensible? Don’t be a prat!

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  120. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “If you wallow around in anger and self-pity blaming anything and everyone else for your wretched and miserable life then this is your fault.”

    Like the Palestinians Reid?

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  121. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    Heh, I watched that episode on DVD last night Ryan. Bloody good series. I think it may actually be better than the Brit one.

    You take that back.

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  122. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I’m not sure what conclusions one is supposed to draw from that short summary of Tuhoe history, griffith.

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  123. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The treaty states —- in Its much pushed princables (3)The freedom of the Crown to governOn the freedom of the Crown to govern, Justice Cooke ruled that:The principles of the Treaty do not authorise unreasonable restrictions on the right of a dulyelected government to follow its chosen policy. Indeed, to try and shackle the Governmentunreasonably would itself be inconsistent with those principles.1

    The government had a right to enforce the rule of law Onto tuhoe

    At the time the confiscation of land for the repeated lawless acts where justified.

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  124. noskire (839 comments) says:

    Some people are like clouds. When they fuck off it’s a beautiful day.

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  125. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Like the Palestinians Reid?

    If Tuhoe were being ghettoised, shelled with white phosphorus, 1400 of their children had been murdered and other things like that then I wouldn’t be suggesting my solution to them Shawn because it would be quite obvious the people doing things like that to them were evil Satanic thugs and that requires therefore a different approach.

    Why do you ask?

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  126. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Well they are both excellent Ryan. But I find Elementary’s version of Sherlock a little more interesting as a character.

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  127. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,641 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 11:49 am

    Tuhoe never signed the Treaty. By their understanding they are an invaded nation under occupation. And both historically and morally, they are right.
    ……..
    How much Tuhoe territory is in private ownership (was sold)? Should non Tuhoe and Tuhoe have the same freedoms of movement in and out of territorial areas?
    The Green Party position is that the indigeous (as understood) version of te tiritti applies. By this the foreshore and seabed and wider ares belong to Maori. Do you support this on moral grounds? Aboriginal title is also used as a shoe horn to resources. Would you support some sort of land taxes on moral grounds?
    Your arguments are an appeal to morality based on a fairs, fair system derived from within a commonality but does that system apply in this situation?

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  128. Elaycee (4,372 comments) says:

    Some people are like clouds. When they fuck off it’s a beautiful day.

    Haha – Well said. :D

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  129. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Oh I see griffith: Tuhoe had it coming to them, eh? Even though they never signed the Treaty so the extension of government authority over them could be seen as a bit questionable. You disagree, I take it, with tribunal rulings about questionable confiscations.

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  130. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “I’m not sure what conclusions one is supposed to draw from that short summary of Tuhoe history, griffith.”

    The government had the right to kick the fuzzy wuzzies around. That’s basically Griff’s argument in a nutshell.

    As Tuhoe never signed the Treaty Griff’s argument is a crock of racist shit. Though it would still be a crock even if they had.

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  131. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    And I note you’re using Te Ara as a source now, griffith. Isn’t it a bit too modern and revisionist for you?

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  132. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,644 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 11:29 am

    ” maoris will end up like abos and american indians. sad”

    And the common denominator for all three groups is what? Colonisation, cultural destruction, dispossession of land.
    ……..
    another common denominator is agriculture overtaking hunter gathering, increasing the human carrying capacity.

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  133. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The confiscation was after repeated involvement in across border terrorism.

    Against the lawfull Government enabled by the treaty .

    Pointless debating maori with you mike.

    The common thread is always,
    Tribal lawless savagery.

    is excused

    Governments lawful actions legally enabled by the principles of the treaty and New Zealand common law are condemned

    Maori Racist Apartheid interpretations of tuhoe victimization are not justified by the intent or the modern legal interpretations of the treaty or the history attached to the confiscation of land

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  134. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Tuhoe can’t have their cake and eat it too. If they want to argue they never surrendered then they’re not entitled to anything that NZ’ers are entitled to. They can’t have the education, healthcare, roads, electricity and water reticulation or anything else.

    Otherwise they can get with the program and stop pretending they, along with the rest of the tribes, didn’t lose the war.

    Simple as that.

    You can’t relitigate history. It’s been and gone. Sure, it may not have worked out as you like, but that’s life. Sorry. Get over it.

    This would be harsh if there wasn’t a process in place to deal with the injustices but since there is, it isn’t harsh at all, it’s simply realistic. Why do taxpayers have to put up with endless and needlessly expensive prevarication from Tuhoe simply because they don’t like the result of several hundred years ago? Especially when other tribes are participating in said process perfectly well and moving on to greener pastures.

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  135. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “Should non Tuhoe and Tuhoe have the same freedoms of movement in and out of territorial areas?”

    That is for Tuhoe to decide.

    “By this the foreshore and seabed and wider ares belong to Maori. Do you support this on moral grounds?”

    Yes.

    “Aboriginal title is also used as a shoe horn to resources. Would you support some sort of land taxes on moral grounds?”

    I would need more detail as to what you mean.

    “Your arguments are an appeal to morality based on a fairs, fair system”

    Actually my argument is from a conservative position on property rights.

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  136. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “Otherwise they can get with the program and stop pretending they, along with the rest of the tribes, didn’t lose the war.

    Simple as that.”

    Like the Palestinians should get with the program?

    Just noting your wildly contradictory double standards.

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  137. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    In what lawful way was government authority extended over Tuhoe, griffith?

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  138. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Just noting your wildly contradictory double standards.

    See my 12.11 which addressed the same point you’ve just repeated so hopefully you won’t need to repeat your false accusation a third time. What’s the matter, didn’t your education cover basic comprehension or is the surgery still giving you head problems?

    In what lawful way was government authority extended over Tuhoe, griffith?

    I would have thought their behaviour in accepting and using govt services and money over the generations was a good implied argument that would stand up in court mm. Don’t you?

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  139. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Yeah, your attempt to address the point was an epic fail. It was just the usual “Satanic thug” bollocks to cover your hypocrisy.

    The bottom line is your engaging in convenient double standards based on nothing more than bigotry towards Jews, or bigotry towards Maori.

    Racism is the only common denominator.

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  140. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The history of a distinct Palestinian national identity is a disputed issue amongst scholars.[32]
    Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that
    Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th
    century.[32] “Palestinian” was used to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine in a limited way until World War I.[20][21] The first demand for national independence of the Levant was issued by the Syrian–Palestinian Congress on 21 September 1921.[33] After the creation of the State of Israel, the exodus of 1948, and more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but also the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian state.[20] According to Rashid Khalidi,
    the modern Palestinian people now understand their identity as
    encompassing the heritage of all ages from biblical times up to the
    Ottoman period.[34]

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  141. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Oh dear so you really hallucinate Tuhoe are treated like the Palestinians Shawn?

    Seriously mate, go back to the doc and tell them something’s wrong. Give them your recent blog conversations as evidence.

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  142. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,646 comments) says:
    April 13th, 2014 at 12:29 pm

    “Should non Tuhoe and Tuhoe have the same freedoms of movement in and out of territorial areas?”

    That is for Tuhoe to decide.
    ….
    not a two-way street?
    ++
    “Aboriginal title is also used as a shoe horn to resources. Would you support some sort of land taxes on moral grounds?”

    I would need more detail as to what you mean.
    …..
    Suppose we imposed taxation on those whose land is in a rohe providing an income in perpetuity to descendants of Maori. Would you support that on moral grounds?
    ++++++++
    “Your arguments are an appeal to morality based on a fairs, fair system”

    Actually my argument is from a conservative position on property rights.
    ….
    a conservative position on property rights is derived from within a comonality whereas we are talking about a country where every inch was once the property of tribal collectives.

    The climax of the play comes in the court of the Duke of Venice. Shylock refuses Bassanio’s offer of 6,000 ducats, twice the amount of the loan. He demands his pound of flesh from Antonio. The Duke, wishing to save Antonio but unable to nullify a contract, refers the case to a visitor who introduces himself as Balthazar, a young male “doctor of the law”, bearing a letter of recommendation to the Duke from the learned lawyer Bellario. The doctor is actually Portia in disguise, and the law clerk who accompanies her is actually Nerissa, also in disguise. As Balthazar, Portia repeatedly asks Shylock to show mercy in a famous speech, advising him that mercy “is twice blest: It blesseth him that gives and him that takes” (IV, i, 185). However, Shylock adamantly refuses any compensations and insists on the pound of flesh.

    As the court grants Shylock his bond and Antonio prepares for Shylock’s knife, Portia deftly appropriates Shylock’s argument for ‘specific performance’, and points out that the contract only allows Shylock to remove the flesh, not the “blood”, of Antonio (see quibble). Thus, if Shylock were to shed any drop of Antonio’s blood, his “lands and goods” would be forfeited under Venetian laws. Further damning Shylock’s case, she tells him that he must cut precisely one pound of flesh, no more, no less; she advises him that “if the scale do turn, But in the estimation of a hair, Thou diest and all thy goods are confiscate.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merchant_of_Venice

    the problem of compensation for Maori is akin to the Pond of Flesh.

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  143. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “not a two-way street?”

    No.

    “Suppose we imposed taxation on those whose land is in a rohe providing an income in perpetuity to descendants of Maori. Would you support that on moral grounds?

    No, as it would not be a move towards tribal sovereignty and independence.

    “a conservative position on property rights is derived from within a comonality whereas we are talking about a country where every inch was once the property of tribal collectives.”

    Tribal collectives can still own property.

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  144. stephieboy (2,788 comments) says:

    “The jews want us to hate them lie “, used by Jew haters to rationalize and justify their fears and hates towards them. How the writings of Theodor Herzl were and continue to be quote minded and distorted.

    http://www.totalfascism.com/theodor-herzl-and-the-jews-want-us-to-hate-them-lie

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  145. dirty harry (453 comments) says:

    Reason 697 for not voting Liarbor

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8829480/labour-promises-20m-for-kauri-battle

    Easy to waste money that’s not yours.

    Scumbags.

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  146. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Shawn it is not a two-way equel partnership
    the principles of the treaty are here

    http://www.justice.govt.nz/tribunals/waitangi-tribunal/treaty-of-waitangi/tribunals/waitangi-tribunal/documents/public/treaty-principles-appendix-99
    http://www.pce.parliament.nz/assets/Uploads/Reports/pdf/treaty_initiative.pdf

    The Executive:
    iv
    • The government’s right to govern
    • The right of iwi to self management of their resources
    • Redress for past grievances
    • Equality, all New Zealanders are equal before the law
    • Reasonable cooperation by both parties
    Government has a right to govern the country for the benefits of all not just tuhoe or just maori.

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  147. Fletch (6,294 comments) says:

    @ Ryan and Shawn –

    I’ve watched a couple episodes of Sherlock and a couple of Elementary but couldn’t get into them.
    No one played Holmes better than Jeremy Brett. He was the quintessential Sherlock.

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  148. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Griff,

    Tuhoe did not sign the Treaty.

    And the government can redress past wrongs, as well as devolve more power, indpendence and decision making to Iwi, and still be governing for the benefit of all.

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  149. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    I’ve watched a couple episodes of Sherlock and a couple of Elementary but couldn’t get into them.
    No one played Holmes better than Jeremy Brett. He was the quintessential Sherlock.

    The first two seasons of Sherlock were great, in my opinion. I especially enjoy the modern adaptations of elements from the books, such as Watson’s blog as a reframing of the original’s writings, and Sherlock’s nicotine patches rather than cocaine.

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  150. minus (178 comments) says:

    Sykes said she favoured a model which she described as a partnership where Mana candidates would run in Maori seats as Mana candidates, rather than joint representatives, then the parties would negotiate their combined list

    Does there not have to be a clear formal publicised combination of parties for Dotcom’s Internet Party to derive any voting power from Mana.
    Contrary to Sykes’ wish that Mana candidates run in Maori seats, anything that means voting for a candidate there will allow Internet Party’s party vote recognition must be clearly defined.
    Well, shit – one would think so?

    I think it is very interesting that so far not one member of Parliament in Question Time has yet asked how this would work.
    Nor, it would seem, has any journalist questioned the Electoral Commission.

    And for Annette Sykes, the moment Hone Harawira stands as a candidate under a name other than Mana, if it changes to Mana/Internet or whatever, that will show a voter’s desire that Hone represent him or her, but not distinguish whether it is a Mana vote or a Dotcom vote. Any legal recourse to one or the other is non-existent.

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  151. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    The drug addiction theme in Elementary is one of the reasons it makes for a more interesting character imo. That and Johnny Lee Miler is just plain fun to watch. He’s a great actor.

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  152. stephieboy (2,788 comments) says:

    The three votes against my previous post , the Anti semites among us.
    Sigh.!
    Meanwhile some of the funniest 9/11 Conspiracy claims,

    http://warp.povusers.org/grrr/funny_911_claims.html

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  153. Recidivist_offender (28 comments) says:

    All I can say is: Abolish all tax and government laws and regulations. Privatise law enforcement and defense forces.
    Anarcho capitalism, I love it!

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  154. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “Anarcho capitalism, I love it!”

    Been there, done that, got the T shirt. Decided to move on to more realistic expectations.

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  155. CharlieBrown (1,002 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11237475

    Goes to show that bradford isn’t a women of principal, she hates rich people.

    She is a complete witch that needs to be shoved down a hole.

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  156. hj (6,915 comments) says:

    Racial conflict was one of the formative experiences of New Zealand society.
    Pakeha New Zealanders are the products of an invading culture. As
    individuals we can be magnanimous or guilt-stricken, according to our
    inclination. But as a society we have this amazing capacity for self-deception.
    For more than a century we smugly believed that this country was a model of
    racial harmony, that we were one people. Maori radicalism has put an end to
    that particular delusion, and we are now in the process of putting down new
    layers of hypocrisy.

    http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/iwi-am04.pdf

    So there’s the invasion paradigm, except that this time it was different ( a limited amount of warfare), and now we are here we are going to settle it all civilly and equitably.
    Radicals are trying to un-invade within our present civil society

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  157. OneTrack (3,020 comments) says:

    “Nor, it would seem, has any journalist questioned the Electoral Commission.”

    Well, why would you expect that? That implies competence and impartiality on the part of a journalist. There’s your problem.

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  158. Elaycee (4,372 comments) says:

    Phew – a temporary lull…. what bliss. Attention has been diverted.

    Maybe Mr Whippy has pulled up outside and is cranking out Greensleeves at 100 dB… :D

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  159. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Tv

    shrugs

    Meh

    Did Sherlock Holmes Have Asperger Syndrome?
    Does Conan Doyle teach us as much as Sigmund Freud?
    Published on October 13, 2011 by Karl Albrecht, Ph.D. in BrainSnacks
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brainsnacks/201110/did-sherlock-holmes-have-asperger-syndrome-0

    “Mrs. Hudson, you’re underfoot!”

    Sherlock Holmes’s long-suffering landlady and housekeeper often saw, at close range, how impatient, insensitive, inconsiderate, and indifferent he could be with people.

    His obsessive interest in the craft of crime-solving crowded out almost everything else from his life, including the possibility of warm and reciprocal relationships. His colleague Dr. John Watson was the only person privileged to share his personal space, with the possible exception of his brother Mycroft. And the relationship with Watson was bounded to that of wizard and apprentice.

    His remarkable powers of observation, memory, relational thinking, and deduction made him a master of his craft, but he was famously incapable of relating to people as other than actors to be analyzed and explained.

    These three core characteristics have led many to speculate that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, his creator, had – more or less unconsciously – diagnosed him with what’s now known as Asperger (or Asperger’s) Syndrome.

    Sigmund Freud and Conan Doyle did their best work at about the same time. Which of those thinkers, and their intellectual descendents, have taught us more about people?

    According to Tenzin Gyatso, the fourteenth Dalai Lama,
    “Who can say which will be more important in the end: landing on the moon or understanding the human mind?”

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  160. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “Before the beginning, after the great war between Heaven and Hell, God created the Earth and gave dominion over it to the crafty ape he called man. And to each generation was born a creature of light and a creature of darkness. And great armies clashed by night in the ancient war between good and evil. There was magic then, nobility, and unimaginable cruelty. And so it was until the day that a false sun exploded over Trinity, and man forever traded away wonder for reason.”

    Opening monologue from Carnivàle.

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  161. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    The pwogwessive agenda coming soon to your kid’s school, if it’s not there already. You might want to skip the first few mins if you don’t want to vomit. Make no mistake. This is deliberate, it’s an organised campaign, it’s not going to stop and they don’t care what you think about it.

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  162. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    The pwogwessive agenda coming soon to your kid’s school, if it’s not there already. You might want to skip the first few mins if you don’t want to vomit. Make no mistake. This is deliberate, it’s an organised campaign, it’s not going to stop and they don’t care what you think about it.

    The stuff in the ads at the start are a great number of organised campaigns, Reid. And they’re organised by… marketers working for private enterprise trying to expand markets. That’s what happens when you organise a society around the pursuit of profit.

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  163. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    That’s what happens when you organise a society around the pursuit of profit.

    There’s deeper points beyond just the first few mins Ryan. But as to that point, we’ve had a society organised around the pursuit of profit here since whaling was big business and we didn’t do this, did we.

    It’s social engineering, plain, simple and evil.

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  164. stephieboy (2,788 comments) says:

    Attention Reid, Ugly Truth, Wiri etc ,

    Another”pointless ( and Dumb ) conspiracy ” woo doing the rounds on the internet,

    MH370 “Clone” being held by Israel?,

    “A rather pointless conspiracy theory seems to be making its way through the bowels of the internet which claims that a ‘clone’ for MH370 is being held by Israel for some unspecified purpose.. but because it’s Israel is must be nefarious..:rolleyes…

    http://jref01.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/mh370-being-held-by-israel.html

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  165. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    There’s deeper points beyond just the first few mins Ryan. But as to that point, we’ve had a society organised around the pursuit of profit here since whaling was big business and we didn’t do this, did we.

    Which we didn’t do what?

    It’s social engineering, plain, simple and evil.

    Changing the curriculum so that no sex education is taught is also social engineering, plain and simple.

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  166. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Which we didn’t do what?

    Teach 5 year olds about body parts with stuffed dolls of penises and vaginas and 10 and 11 year olds about oral and anal sexual techniques in schools Ryan. Watch the video.

    Changing the curriculum so that no sex education is taught is also social engineering, plain and simple.

    No it’s the absence of social engineering. After all up to 2014 somehow the human race has muddled through without it so we probably don’t need it, do we.

    Attention Reid, Ugly Truth, Wiri etc ,

    stephie you’re very very slow mate, I knew that weeks ago. What did you think about the photos of it? I don’t know if the link you gave had any because I never look at any links you post because I know you’re an idiot but if it didn’t have photos then they’re extremely interesting. You could try google but they might have adjusted the search results by now and so you’ll never find them which is a shame, for you.

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  167. Urban_Redneck (73 comments) says:

    @ Reid
    It’s already here, man. The list below is some of the “sex education” that is offered up by the “educators” from the US State Of Hawaii.

    That the anus is a “genital”
    That orgies are natural entertainment
    That sex addiction is a myth
    That addiction to pornography is not possible
    That it’s normal for children of any age to have sex
    That they have the right to choose whatever sexual activity they may think to try with whomever they want
    That sodomy (legalized by the Supreme Court in 2003) is a healthy sexual practice for all sexual orientations.

    Also, in the State of Minnesota, the AIDS Project activists tell youngsters thru state sex education programs they can cut and use plastic wrap as a “barrier” when a child has oral/anal contact.

    http://barbwire.com/2014/04/03/theyre-hypersexualizing-kids/

    I always though the glad wrap and rubber band scenario was a joke. Apparently not.

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  168. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    It’s already here, man.

    You mean NZ is getting it from there or it’s in there now? I read something about a proposal here a few weeks ago but I didn’t pay much attention other than shake my head sadly at the sheeple who just stare mindlessly at the telly as one more bottle falls off the wall.

    I don’t have kids you see, if I did I’d be screaming bloody murder.

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  169. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Labour would slap capital gains tax on property speculators
    http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/labour-would-slap-capital-gains-tax-property-speculators-5914997

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  170. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    Teach 5 year olds about body parts with stuffed dolls of penises and vaginas and 10 and 11 year olds about oral and anal sexual techniques in schools Ryan. Watch the video.

    The video’s 40 minutes long or something. We may not have 5-year-olds with penis dolls, but we certainly have plenty of make-up and “tween fashion” being marketed to kids, for example.

    Changing the curriculum so that no sex education is taught is also social engineering, plain and simple.

    No it’s the absence of social engineering.

    You want to change society by changing what kids are taught in school. That’s social engineering.

    After all up to 2014 somehow the human race has muddled through without it so we probably don’t need it, do we.

    Muddled through is right. Hell, there are probably still some 50-somethings who think you can’t get pregnant if you have sex standing up or that you can’t have an STD if you have no symptoms.

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  171. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    You want to change society by changing what kids are taught in school. That’s social engineering.

    Ryan at this stage I’m hoping kids aren’t being taught what’s in the video or if they are then I’m hoping they won’t miss it if it disappears.

    I don’t really give a fuck what you want to call that.

    I mean if you torture someone’s mind by making them permanently fearful then when you stop doing that are you still torturing them or are you not torturing them anymore?

    It’s just that’s what they’re doing to our society – torturing our children to create a permanent change in future behaviour in generations to come.

    If you don’t think it’s torture then what else do you want to call destruction of a child’s innocence?

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  172. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    The list below is some of the “sex education” that is offered up by the “educators” from the US State Of Hawaii.

    Meanwhile, abstinence only education and slut shaming guarantees the clap and teenage pregnancy.

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/72499/this-program-contributes-to-teen-pregnancy-so-why-is-the-government-funding-it

    http://www.salon.com/2014/04/04/mississippi_sex_ed_curriculum_compares_sexually_active_teen_girls_to_dirty_chocolate/

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  173. Harriet (4,848 comments) says:

    “…..Changing the curriculum so that no sex education is taught is also social engineering, plain and simple….”

    It’s about the context that sex education is taught in Ryan. We know that adults need values & morals when having sex with others. So then do children. The truth is then a good place to start when educating children.

    But kids are mostly only getting instruction about sex itself – if you can call it that. An anus is not a sexual organ. It’s a vessal for containing human waste. To then teach a child that anal ‘sex’ is not only ok but ‘natural’ is a complete lie. It is disgusting and spreads disease.

    It also belittles the female anatomy – something that feminists would no doubt have an issue with!

    No one is saying that sex-ed shouldn’t be taught – we are just saying that it should be seperated from perverted sexual behaviour classes.

    Maybe the schools can divide it into two classes – and parents can then have an opt-in option. That is then fair to both hetros and homos.

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  174. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    State education will always be a values battle ground because no matter what it teaches, it’s social engineering. Ryan is right about that.

    Privatising education and allowing parents full control and choice is the only answer. That way social liberals and social conservatives can choose the education they want.

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  175. stephieboy (2,788 comments) says:

    Attention Reid, Ugly Truth, Wiri etc ,

    stephie you’re very very slow mate, I knew that weeks ago. What did you think about the photos of it? I don’t know if the link you gave had any because I never look at any links you post because I know you’re an idiot but if it didn’t have photos then they’re extremely interesting. You could try google but they might have adjusted the search results by now and so you’ll never find them which is a shame, for you.

    Reid the main point is that did you give credence to that woo about the Israel 370 Clone .?,as you do with the energy directed,particle beams or whatever woo of Judy Woods.

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  176. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    State education will always be a values battle ground because no matter what it teaches, it’s social engineering. Ryan is right about that.

    Privatising education and allowing parents full control and choice is the only answer, That way social liberals and social conservatives can choose the education they want.

    Only problem with that, Shawn, is that all of the schools that don’t teach sex ed will flood the population with pregnant STI-ridden teenagers who won’t have abortions. THEY’LL OUT-BREED EVERYONE ELSE!

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  177. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Ryan, you say that like it’s a bad thing. ;)

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  178. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    It’s the pre-pubescent age at which they want to start it at plus the extreme explicitness of it which makes it evil cha. When you’re that age you’re thinking about other things. If you start discussing too early naturally kids want to try it and you’re not a kid anymore.

    Fine if you want to start it high school or even the ‘how the body works’ at Intermediate. But at Intermediate why the fuck do you need to teach them say, masturbatation techniques or how to put a condom over an erect dildo that the teacher puts on your desk? I didn’t need to know that when I was 11 or 12 and nothing untoward happened to me in that dept so why are 2014 kids any different?

    Personally if I was a parent I’d take care of it myself and I don’t understand why the tiny minority of kids whose parents aren’t capable of that simple task can’t be identified and separately coached without subjecting the vast majority of kids to public education from a stranger but that’s a typical pwogwessive tactic to justify their engineering and somehow that simple logical argument never gets any publicity or traction. Go figure.

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  179. wat dabney (3,724 comments) says:

    That way social liberals and social conservatives can choose the education they want.

    The problem is that lefties absolutely don’t want you to have that choice.

    As for corrupt politicians seeking to buy votes, for example the Labour Party, they will support the state monopoly even as they send their own children to private schools.

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  180. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “The problem is that lefties absolutely don’t want you to have that choice.”

    Yes and no. I know lefties who aren’t happy with the one size fits all state system. In time I think we will have more and more choice, even if the state system continues, largely from parental demand from across the political spectrum.

    Information technology is also slowly but surely making traditional schools obsolete.

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  181. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    It’s about the context that sex education is taught in Ryan. We know that adults need values & morals when having sex with others. So then do children. The truth is then a good place to start when educating children.

    But kids are mostly only getting instruction about sex itself – if you can call it that.

    Obviously schools should not be teaching “values & morals”, because different people have different values and morals. They should stick to facts.

    An anus is not a sexual organ.

    For many people, the anus provides sexual pleasure.

    It’s a vessal for containing human waste.

    Well, technically that would be the colon. The anus is the means by which human waste exists – as is the penis.

    To then teach a child that anal ‘sex’ is not only ok but ‘natural’ is a complete lie. It is disgusting and spreads disease.

    Teaching that anything is “okay” or “natural” is really outside of education’s mandate, whether it’s anal sex, vaginal sex, oral sex, praying, dancing, singing, etc. “Disgusting” is a value judgement and also should not be taught. “Spreads disease in certain circumstances” is a fact and should be taught, just as it should be taught that vaginal sex spreads disease in certain circumstances.

    It also belittles the female anatomy – something that feminists would no doubt have an issue with!

    I’m not sure you’ve got a firm grasp on the feminist mindset there.

    No one is saying that sex-ed shouldn’t be taught – we are just saying that it should be seperated from perverted sexual behaviour classes.

    Maybe the schools can divide it into two classes – and parents can then have an opt-in option. That is then fair to both hetros and homos.

    If only facts are being taught, there is no reason to segregate. Hell, I learned calculus at high school – doesn’t mean I’ll ever use that knowledge.

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  182. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    Personally if I was a parent I’d take care of it myself and I don’t understand why the tiny minority of kids whose parents aren’t capable of that simple task can’t be identified and separately coached without subjecting the vast majority of kids to public education from a stranger but that’s a typical pwogwessive tactic to justify their engineering and somehow that simple logical argument never gets any publicity or traction. Go figure.

    Personally, Reid, I don’t know enough about anal sex to be able to teach my kids about it. Is there a book you can recommend or something to raise me out of this “tiny minority” of people who aren’t capable of that simple task?

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  183. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Reid the main point is that did you give credence to that woo about the Israel 370 Clone .?,as you do with the energy directed,particle beams or whatever woo of Judy Woods.

    stephie the main point is that I told you last night, you need to watch that video before I’ll talk to you about directed energy weapons and BTW, if you don’t get the name of those weapons correct in future then I won’t ever talk about those with you. Have you watched that video yet and if so, are you ready for the questions I’ve got for you so I can verify you’ve really watched it?

    As far as that 777-clone story goes I’ve read quite a few things about MH370 and I haven’t made up my mind. Why?

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  184. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    When I was at school, there were kids whose parents opted them out of a number of lessons their parents found objectionable. It kind of sucked for them and made them feel weird and different, but it was there as an option for those parents. Does that still happen?

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  185. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “BTW, if you don’t get the name of those weapons correct in future then I won’t ever talk about those with you.”

    Promise? :)

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  186. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    yes it does. Though there has sometimes been talk of making state sex ed compulsory I think it’s unlikely to happen.

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  187. wat dabney (3,724 comments) says:

    I’m quite sure Reid is in no way hypocritical and also supports the removal of religious conditioning from state schools.

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  188. tvb (4,360 comments) says:

    For candidates to get seats from the list using the coat tail provision they need to be in the same registered party as the person who won the electorate seat. If Annette and others stand as mana how can they claim to be the same party as Internet-mana which might not be a registered party.

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  189. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Yes I gave him an out Shawn because I really can’t be arsed conversing with someone who I envisage is probably a bit like this.

    Does that still happen?

    Later in the vid they have a segment about Toronto, which conducts those classes without telling the parents when they’re going to happen, as a deliberate policy. And if you don’t know when they’re going to happen, you can’t opt them out, can you.

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  190. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    yes it does. Though there has sometimes been talk of making state sex ed compulsory I think it’s unlikely to happen.

    True, though it’s a hell of a lot more practical than half the stuff they teach in schools anyway.

    Do they still teach long division? I’d pull my kid out of that class.

    “Please excuse Connor from learning long division today. It is against his parents’ belief system.”

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  191. Harriet (4,848 comments) says:

    “….Muddled through is right. Hell, there are probably still some 50-somethings who think you can’t get pregnant if you have sex standing up….”

    So why would you then call sodomy anal ‘sex’ – and REFUSE to educate children about ‘foreplay’ – instead calling it ‘oral sex’? Why muddle people Ryan?

    Why do hypersexuals have such a problem with defining things as they should be defined so that confusion[or muddledness] doesn’t then take place?

    One would believe Ryan that sex-ed classes are for the purpose of educating children about sex – and not about muddling their brains over the ‘straight forward matter of sex’ by deconstructing it to suit those who believe sex includes ‘all manner of things, objects and desires’.

    That isn’t ‘sex’ – it’s a complete deviation of sex. Schools now spend more time on the deviations of sex than they do on the act of straight forward sex!

    Sex-ed WAS straight forward Ryan – till the hypersexuals got involved – now it IS muddled, convolted, deviant, and perverted.

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  192. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “I’m quite sure Reid is in no way hypocritical and also supports the removal of religious conditioning from state schools.”

    You mean the Bible in Schools program? That’s not compulsory either. NZ education has generally been fairly pragmatic about these issues.

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  193. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “Do they still teach long division? I’d pull my kid out of that class.”

    Agreed. Long division is just plain evil.

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  194. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    So why would you then call sodomy anal ‘sex’ – and REFUSE to educate children about ‘foreplay’ – instead calling it ‘oral sex’? Why muddle people Ryan?

    Do they not teach about foreplay in sex ed? I agree, that would seem to be a failing.

    Why do hypersexuals have such a problem with defining things as they should be defined so that confusion[or muddledness] doesn’t then take place?

    One would believe Ryan that sex-ed classes are for the purpose of educating children about sex – and not about muddling their brains over the ‘straight forward matter of sex’ by deconstructing it to suit those who believe sex includes ‘all manner of things, objects and desires’.

    That isn’t ‘sex’ – it’s a complete deviation of sex. Schools now spend more time on the deviation than they do on the act of straight forward sex!!!

    Sex-ed WAS straight forward Ryan – till the hypersexuals got involved – now it IS muddled, convolted, deviant, and perverted.

    Ugh, I bet you’re one of those “pterodactyls aren’t dinosaurs – they’re flying reptiles!” people.

    If you only teach kids about vaginal sex, they’re not going to know about sexual hygiene around oral sex, anal sex, masturbation, etc. You think a kid who doesn’t know whether or not you can catch an STD from oral sex is educated on the facts of sex? Or a kid who thinks that erection he got in the boys changing rooms means he’s gay? What happens when a girl’s told by her boyfriend that you can’t catch anything from anal sex and she doesn’t know the facts?

    Your idea of sex-ed isn’t simple; it’s simplistic, and incomplete.

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  195. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    The point, for me at least, is that parents should be the people teaching sex ed. I agree that it should be thorough, but sex is so much tied up with our deepest values that the state is overstepping it’s bounds when it replaces parents in this area.

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  196. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    The fact remains that it’s not compulsory in NZ anyway, so there really is nothing to get all het up about.

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  197. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    The fact remains that it’s not compulsory in NZ anyway, so there really is nothing to get all het up about.

    So if your ten-year is playing with her friend who tells her they learned how to play with their clitorus at school today and it gives you something called an organism and does she want to try it, what are you going to do?

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  198. Harriet (4,848 comments) says:

    “…Agreed. Long division is just plain evil….”

    No really Shawn. And maths is a foundational matter for life.

    Maths becomes a problem for most people because it is taught in a ‘mathmatical sense’ and not a practical sense. Maths teachers in primary teach it mostly in a practical sense and nearly all kids pass. They use objects that kids can relate to.

    However maths teachers [secondary and uni] tend to be mathmaticians first and teachers second. Moreso at uni. eg-

    Calculus is/was generally taught by proving that calculus itself works, and examples given are physics based like velocity.
    Whereas aspects of calculus can also be taught where matters of finance are used as examples. Finance/money is more understandable than physics to a large proportion of students.

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  199. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “So if your ten-year is playing with her friend who tells her they learned how to play with their clitorus at school today and does she want to try it, what are you going to do?”

    Rely on the values I have already taught her. If parents do a good job of instilling their values in their children then they should be able to know when to say no.

    Shielding children from contrary views does not strengthen them.

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  200. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Rely on the values I have already taught her. If parents do a good job of instilling their values in their children then they should be able to know when to say no.

    Yes but the point is Shawn that as soon as you have to tell your ten year old how to respond to such a request if one is made then that begins to destroy her innocence too, doesn’t it. Because you can’t just tell a ten year old to say no, she’ll naturally ask: what’s a clitorus, etc.

    And since a ten year old or let’s get real and say an eight year old because ten year olds will be onto anal by then, since an eight year old doesn’t need to know about that stuff at that age, you’re still forced to explain it to them. Aren’t you.

    Isn’t that diabolical.

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  201. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “Isn’t that diabolical.”

    No. Explaining simple facts and preparing them for the real world is not diabolical. The fact is they are going to come across these things anyway, regardless of whether we have state sex ed or not. For example we have to prepare children about the possibility of paedophiles, and nothing is ever going to change that. Same for the kids down the road who want to play doctor. These issues remain regardless of sex ed.

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  202. Urban_Redneck (73 comments) says:

    Do they still teach long division?

    Feminism, Maori racial superiority, fake environmental religion, the mantra that there are certain segments of society who must never be offended – homosexuals & Muslims for example, the loony tunes concepts of “social justice” and “equality”, anti capitalism, anti Western, politically correct distortions of history and fitting condoms over short lengths of broom handle, yes.

    Reading, writing and arithmetic ? Not so much.

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  203. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    Yes but the point is Shawn that as soon as you have to tell your ten year old how to respond to such a request if one is made then that begins to destroy her innocence too, doesn’t it. Because you can’t just tell a ten year old to say no, she’ll naturally ask: what’s a clitorus, etc.

    It’s spelled “ignorance”, Reid. Knowledge destroys ignorance. And 10-year-olds were talking about sex at school when I was 10 – would you rather that ignorance was destroyed by knowledge or replaced by more ignorance from what 10-year-olds tell each other?

    And since a ten year old or let’s get real and say an eight year old because ten year olds will be onto anal by then, since an eight year old doesn’t need to know about that stuff at that age, you’re still forced to explain it to them. Aren’t you.

    Isn’t that diabolical.

    It’s life, Reid. Kids are already talking about sex at that age. Some overhear older siblings’ conversations, some see TV and the internet, and the ones who get snippets of information about this big secret adult thing then spread their misinformation to other kids.

    Your options are not “kids have heard of sex” and “kids haven’t heard of sex”.

    Your options are “kids hear about sex from each other” and “kids hear about sex from parents and/or teachers”.

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  204. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    While I fully agree that children should receive sex info from their parents lets not forget that the initial reason for covering the nuts & bolts at school is that parents are so appallingly piss poor doing the job themselves. It wasn’t that long ago that kids thought the stork brought them along with a host of other school ground myths.

    It’s not amazing that the ignorance was intergenerational since the churches of yore were so highly successful at screwing up people’s attitudes to sex & reproduction. Guilt & shame make a poor base to start reasonable discussions.

    It is one of life’s mysteries as to how people spend their twilight years on blogs crapping on about how the world is going to hell in a handcart while forgetting just how bad things actually were in their own, now idealised, childhoods.

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  205. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Teen-Sex-Ed.html#15a
    Of the approximately 750,000 teen pregnancies that occur each year,[3] 82% are unintended[5]. Fifty-nine percent end in birth and more than one-quarter end in abortion.[3]

    • In 2009, there were 39.1 births per 1000 women aged 15–19, marking a historic low in the birthrate. This rate represents a 37% decline from the peak rate of 61.8 in 1991.[6]

    • The 2008 teenage abortion rate was 17.8 abortions per 1,000 women. This figure was 59% lower than its peak in 1988, but 1% higher than the 2005 rate.[3]

    • Compared with their Canadian, English, French and Swedish peers, U.S. teens have a similar level of sexual activity, but they are more likely to have shorter and less consistent sexual relationships, and are less likely to use contraceptives, especially the pill or dual methods.[7]

    • The United States continues to have one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the developed world (68 per 1,000 women aged 15–19 in 2008)—more than twice that of Canada (27.9 per 1,000) or Sweden (31.4 per 1,000).[8]

    • Every year, roughly nine million new STIs occur among teens and young adults in the United States. Compared with rates among teens in Canada and Western Europe, rates of gonorrhea and chlamydia among U.S. teens are extremely high.[9, 10]

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  206. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    One hundred years ago any child who grew up on a farm lost their “innocence” pretty quickly. Consistent values education is vastly superior to ignorance.

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  207. Harriet (4,848 comments) says:

    “….Your idea of sex-ed isn’t simple; it’s simplistic, and incomplete….”

    Ryan, girls should be taught seperatly from boys where sex-ed is concerned. Girls, as stats show, are embarrased ect when taught alongside boys.

    But more importantly – Girls need to value their bodies differently to boys as they are biologicly different. They have far different issues. They have far different responsabilities. Boys don’t have to concern themselves with that – biologicly AND legally!

    And it is actually ‘homo and hyperhetro activity’ that is incomplete Ryan, and that is the reason why sex-ed is now being de-constructed – from calling it foreplay – to now calling it oral sex. It’s to suit the simple, incomplete and simplistic amongst us Ryan.

    “…..Ugh, I bet you’re one of those “pterodactyls aren’t dinosaurs – they’re flying reptiles!” people…..”

    So you know don’t believe in having acurate sex education Ryan?

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  208. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    I’ve been going to conservative churches for over 15 years and I have never heard sex described in any way that would instil guilt and shame. Quit the opposite in fact. That’s not to say it never happened, but not to the degree atheist propagandists and liberals like to claim.

    That said I’m not likely to take seriously history lessons from people who believe in global UN conspiracies.

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  209. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Griff,

    NZ’s teen STD rate is pretty bad.

    “Sex clinics treating more youngsters”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10757558

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  210. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    ….”One hundred years ago any child who grew up on a farm lost their “innocence” pretty quickly”….

    I actually agree with you on this one. Our kids basically got the idea of what happened from watching what went on by seeing animals mating on the farm & all we had to do was fill in the gaps in their knowledge at the appropriate age.

    With the urban drift not many kids now have those opportunities to learn naturally.

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  211. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Yeah, I think Reid’s concept of childhood innocence has very little to do with reality. He is rather prone to hysteria.

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  212. OneTrack (3,020 comments) says:

    ryan – “Do they still teach long division? I’d pull my kid out of that class.”

    Far more useful that the kids do kapa haka. And maths is “hard” and not “fun”.

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  213. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    Ryan, girls should be taught seperatly from boys where sex-ed is concerned. Girls, as stats show, are embarrased ect when taught alongside boys.

    But more importantly – Girls need to value their bodies differently to boys as they are biologicly different. They have far different issues. They have far different responsabilities. Boys don’t have to concern themselves with that – biologicly AND legally!

    Boys don’t menstruate either, Harriet, but they should surely be educated about it.

    And it is actually ‘homo and hyperhetro activity’ that is incomplete Ryan, and that is the reason why sex-ed is now being de-constructed – from calling it foreplay – to now calling it oral sex.

    That’s the second time you’ve said that. You do realise that there’s more to foreplay than oral stimulation, right?

    “…..Ugh, I bet you’re one of those “pterodactyls aren’t dinosaurs – they’re flying reptiles!” people…..”

    So you know don’t believe in having acurate sex education Ryan?

    No, I don’t believe in complaining about language when everyone understands what is meant by the terms. You are in a minority, and are at odds with the dictionary, in your complaining about the insertion of an erect penis into an anus for sexual pleasure being called “anal sex” and the stimulation of genitals for sexual pleasure being called “oral sex”.

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  214. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    Far more useful that the kids do kapa haka. And maths is “hard” and not “fun”.

    I’m not opposed to maths, OneTrack. It should absolutely be taught. But in an age of calculators and computers, learning the technique of long division is about as useful as learning how to use blotting paper or how to shoe a horse.

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  215. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    I actually wouldn’t take my children out of a sex ed class in the first place. Ignorance is never a strength. And the best way to inoculate children from bad ideas is to expose them to bad ideas and use it as a teaching tool.

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  216. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    ….”how to shoe a horse.”….

    What if the Greens get to sit on the Treasury benches next year? Blacksmithing will be the only growth industry left in the country.

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  217. Steve (North Shore) (4,546 comments) says:

    Stop feeding the troll shorn left hand.
    This blog is so fucked up and DPF has lost control, no wonder the normal commenters have gone

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  218. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    I was posting here a few years back. The GD threads look pretty much the same, with pretty much the same players.

    If people want GD to improve, whatever that means, start conversations.

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  219. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    It will all come right soon Steve. DPF will be back at the end of the month & as soon as Shawn has recovered from his surgery he’ll return to his old job as a crew leader at McDonalds. :)

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  220. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Actually I’m self employed.

    As to being a troll (assuming he was talking about me) that’s kinda funny. I think some people are just so precious that hearing anything contrary to their world view makes them piss their pants. Which is a little pathetic.

    Some of the whingers and whiners need to grow a pair and man up.

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  221. Harriet (4,848 comments) says:

    “…..Our kids basically got the idea of what happened from watching what went on by seeing animals mating on the farm…….With the urban drift not many kids now have those opportunities to learn naturally….”

    No shit!

    Now they get there sex-ed from Queen St parades, Big Gay Outs, pro gay media releases, schools politicly correct sex-ed classes ect.

    When was the last time you saw or heard of urban children ‘learning naturally’ Nasska?

    See the problem – sex-ed is all pro gay!

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  222. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    I think everyone’s gone for dinner Harriet. Apart from Steve from the North Shore. He may just be having a sulk. ;)

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  223. Harriet (4,848 comments) says:

    “……It will all come right soon Steve. DPF will be back at the end of the month & as soon as Shawn has recovered from his surgery he’ll return to his old job as a crew leader at McDonalds….”

    It will all come right soon Steve. Kea will be back at the end of the month & as soon as he has recovered from his surgery he’ll return to his old job of being the prog crew leader at GD……

    ……… and Nasska will go back to being the part time after school kid. :cool:

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  224. Manolo (13,571 comments) says:

    The rough native (Hone) has sold his ass to the obese German. The best is yet to come in the farcical alliance between these two crooks.

    Minto and Sykes by going along for the ride (read money) have lost the little credibility they had.

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  225. Harriet (4,848 comments) says:

    Minto nailed his colours to the capitalist and Nazi mast in the sole belief that the left will win the election. Compromised himself.

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  226. Fletch (6,294 comments) says:

    Re: sex education – there is such a thing as age appropriateness.

    I fail to see how informing children about sex at younger and younger ages is going to stop them having or wanting sex.

    It’s like driving a car. Young children cannot drive and we do not allow it. They don’t have the necessary skills or reflexes to handle it. They see us doing it; they know it goes on, but we are happy enough to leave it until they are older until teaching them how to drive.

    Now then, what do you think would happen if we took 5 and 6 year olds (or younger!) in a classroom and taught them all about the mechanics of it? This is what the clutch is for; this is what the gas pedal does; this is how you steer it, and what the indicators do. This is how you put the key in and start the car.

    What do you think the result will be? Will it put them off driving until later or give them an interest in it now? Or as soon as they can?

    It’s only common sense.

    I agree with whoever said that it is stealing a child’s innocence to teach them all about these things too soon. I Cannot see ANY possible reason for children to learn about sex at the ages we’re talking about. Young boys cannot even ejaculate until puberty – their bodies are not yet ready for sex.

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  227. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    I think Sykes is doing it not for the money but because of the social media expertise they’ll get out of it and she’s trusting Hone’s judgement on the political side because it’s not her field. But while she’s got a fearsome intellect I don’t think trusting Hone is going to work. I suspect their own base in TTT will be loyal but they won’t get enough outsiders coming in because the media will crucify them as the Dotbomb lawsuit and extradition suit in July works through and it will be so bad that even young disaffected Maori will have their parents telling them: “don’t be nuts, Hone’s gone completely mental.”

    I think Minto’s staying because he’s an idiot. I think Bradford has walked away because she’s an idealist but she also knows politics. She’s a critical loss to the strategy brains trust for Mana.

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  228. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    Fletch

    I accept that there’s a limit to what children need to know at the age they’re beginning school but I think you’d find most of the info currently taught comes under the “keeping yourself safe” umbrella.

    We brought up our oldest granddaughter & I remember the wife wondering what the hell was going on at her primary school & actually making enquiries.

    The programme was certainly not lurid but factual. It was probably the minimum necessary for a kid to be aware of the risks posed by paedophiles.

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  229. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Keep in mind that Reid was referencing things going on overseas rather than in NZ.

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  230. SPC (5,595 comments) says:

    The issues raised by reid as per the video earlier

    1 re sex education (overseas only perhaps), the confusion of an aspect of social studies – having children aware of adult relationship types (different family types) with the children’s own “personal” education is a valid point. The two are separate things.

    2 re “the sexualisation” of children in advertising/fashion. There is range of issues behind what is called this.

    What is involved is the increased importance to being fashionable – impact of producer marketing and the related issue of presentation as to status across all age groups (and included in this is being “attractive”). As to age – 1. the young child and playing grown up/dress up 2. the girl who wants to be seen as fashionable (the sense of self worth becoming connected to being one of those who wear brands) 3. and the girl who wants to be seen as someone attractive to boys. Confusing, 1 and 2, with 3, just makes a parent/adults paranoid.

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  231. Fletch (6,294 comments) says:

    The programme was certainly not lurid but factual. It was probably the minimum necessary for a kid to be aware of the risks posed by paedophiles.

    Yah, I know he was speaking of overseas, I was just commenting generally.

    But, that is also an indictment on society: how everything is being sexualized. We’re slowly becoming pagan. If one of the Beyonce videos that is current were to play on TV during the 1960s even, the fathers of the household would have taken the TV outside and smashed it. And stuff like Fifty Shades Of Grey (which is being made into a movie) and the movie Nyphomaniac is nothing but pornography. Yes, we’ve had things like blue movies and videos for a while, but now it’s becoming accepted mainstream. Fifty Shades.. is even being sold in Whitcoulls and The Warehouse in their bestseller lists and on separate display stands, instead of in brown paper bags on the top shelf where it used to be (and ought to be!)

    It is wrong to think that this has no effect on society in general, especially the pedos and other warped of mind. Imagine a stream polluted with raw sewage up-river from a city.. The problem will not be fixed by inoculating everyone (including younger and younger children), but by tackling the problem at its source – at the source of the pollution upstream.

    So with society. We think that by teaching kids about sex and warning them about pedos is the answer, when really we should be looking to Hollywood those who create the kind of media we are bombarded with in songs, music videos, movies, television, books etc to put some kind of limit of the stuff they peddle.

    It’s only going to get worse.

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  232. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    I fail to see how informing children about sex at younger and younger ages is going to stop them having or wanting sex.

    It’s not. Biology makes them want sex. And whether or not they are in possession of factually accurate information about it has very little impact on whether or not they’ll have it.

    It’s like driving a car. Young children cannot drive and we do not allow it. They don’t have the necessary skills or reflexes to handle it. They see us doing it; they know it goes on, but we are happy enough to leave it until they are older until teaching them how to drive.

    Now then, what do you think would happen if we took 5 and 6 year olds (or younger!) in a classroom and taught them all about the mechanics of it? This is what the clutch is for; this is what the gas pedal does; this is how you steer it, and what the indicators do. This is how you put the key in and start the car.

    What do you think the result will be? Will it put them off driving until later or give them an interest in it now? Or as soon as they can?

    It’s only common sense.

    Except that humans are not biologically preprogrammed with an extremely strong desire to drive cars that kicks in at puberty. Hell, you’re far more likely to get the average 6-year-old boy interested in driving a car than you are in getting them to want to have anything to do with a girl.

    I agree with whoever said that it is stealing a child’s innocence to teach them all about these things too soon. I Cannot see ANY possible reason for children to learn about sex at the ages we’re talking about. Young boys cannot even ejaculate until puberty – their bodies are not yet ready for sex.

    Exactly! Bodies are not yet ready for sex, are not yet interested in sex, and are not yet capable of sex. But once they are, no amount of not-learning-about-it-in-school is going to stop them from wanting it and pursuing it.

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  233. Fletch (6,294 comments) says:

    Doctors in Belgium (where euthanasia is legal in certain cases), wanting involuntary euthanasia.

    http://www.bioedge.org/index.php/bioethics/bioethics_article/10922

    Don’t say it wasn’t predictable.

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  234. Tauhei Notts (1,692 comments) says:

    Nasska’s comments on farm children losing their innocence at a young age are correct.
    I recall at age about 8 arguing that children are made by the father sticking his cock in the woman’s bum. I did not know much about anatomy at that age.
    I have often wondered what one kid had been watching;
    He argued that babies were made by the father pissing in the woman’s mouth!

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  235. SPC (5,595 comments) says:

    My rule of thumb.

    1. Is being safe from bullying in all its forms and the basics of being male and female, the body differences (and at the final period year or so what happens in puberty). And something in social studies about different family types. Primary School.
    2. The human body – being male and female in the reproductive aspect. Biological sexual maturation issues (going through puberty and reaching the time of being fertile) and the range of sexuality/relationship types of adult couples (same sex attraction and bi-sexuality and heterosexuality and gender identification. Intermediate.
    3. Real sexuality education, as related to their own personal lives, current or future relationships. Including responsibility for being free of STD’s and fertility and information (or means to) sufficient to enable competence in being a sexual partner. Secondary school.

    The simplest way to create a line to manage risk for those of the “puberty” period is pass a law saying that no one under 14 can give consent to sexual acts.

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  236. Fletch (6,294 comments) says:

    It’s not. Biology makes them want sex.

    But not at the ages you’re talking about, it doesn’t.

    Exactly! Bodies are not yet ready for sex, are not yet interested in sex, and are not yet capable of sex. But once they are, no amount of not-learning-about-it-in-school is going to stop them from wanting it and pursuing it.

    Then why not leave it until they are? In their teens or tweens.

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  237. Fletch (6,294 comments) says:

    SPC, sure.
    I had a kid brother and kid sister, and sure we could see we were different. It didn’t seem to matter though, and we didn’t think it was a big deal. We never had to have specific classes on it though.

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  238. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    Now, about birds and bees and things…..

    h**ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGHfTstfWwk

    (** = tt because some things cannot be unseen)

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  239. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    It’s not. Biology makes them want sex.

    But not at the ages you’re talking about, it doesn’t.

    Exactly! Bodies are not yet ready for sex, are not yet interested in sex, and are not yet capable of sex. But once they are, no amount of not-learning-about-it-in-school is going to stop them from wanting it and pursuing it.

    Then why not leave it until they are? In their teens or tweens.

    I think that’s the ideal time for sex education, myself, around 10 or 11. Just prior to the bottom end of the bell curve on when puberty starts. But I say that because it’s a bit of a waste of time before then, not because biology can be overruled by the intellectual curiosity of a 6-year-old.

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  240. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “The first two facts which a healthy boy or girl feels about sex are these: first that it is beautiful and then that it is dangerous.”

    G.K. Chesterton

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  241. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    “Mail Online” story:

    ….”Woman sued for $2 million after boyfriend torched squirrel on apartment deck, starting massive fire”…..

    Now I’m not an accountant, but it sounds like they might not have $2 million.

    Ref: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2596507/Woman-sued-2-million-boyfriend-torched-squirrel-apartment-deck-starting-massive-fire.html

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  242. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    El Guava will be over the moon with the goings on # BundyRanch.

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  243. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    I think he’ll be in the States at the ranch helping by now cha. Baity will be first over the top with his trusty M60 spitting hot death at the commie progs. :)

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  244. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Reddy’s been quite quiet lately – is he on new medication?

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  245. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Fletch on what you’ve mentioned it’s my view, not just mine but several million of us, that it’s deliberate, it’s very carefully designed and very carefully introduced and its done with the help of a lot of useful idiots who number several billion, who don’t know what the fuck is going on and don’t want to know because they hallucinate the world works on very superficial levels and they don’t understand that’s not the case.

    And the design cannot be denied, unless you’re a useful idiot, partly because just like gay marriage, the exact same meme is propagated at the exact same time across the exact same territories: the western world.

    Baity will be first over the top with his trusty M60 spitting hot death at the commie progs.

    They’re facist progs nasska. The land of the free and the home of the brave has gone facist.

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  246. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    Just licking his cellphone battery every half hour is working for now Mike….also security has been enhanced in the day room. :)

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  247. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Heh, I wonder what stephie will make of this:

    Conservatives frustrated with the direction of the country think Dr. Ben Carson can change the course by winning the 2016 presidential race.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/12/carson-for-president-back-report-4-million-raised-campaign-apparatus-into-place/

    Carson is African-American.

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  248. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    ….”They’re facist progs nasska”….

    They’ll probably be safe then Reid….Baity was quite insistent that the enemy were knuckle dragging, homosexual, ‘commie’ progs. :)

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  249. Harriet (4,848 comments) says:

    “……..I fail to see how informing children about sex at younger and younger ages is going to stop them having or wanting sex.

    It’s not. Biology makes them want sex. And whether or not they are in possession of factually accurate information about it has very little impact on whether or not they’ll have it…….”

    “…..Biology makes them want sex….”

    Lol Ryan!

    Biology doesn’t make 5ylds have sex – neither does tv or education.

    As 5lds don’t ever have sex. Ever. Other than by being raped by someone older.

    Sex education for 92% of that age group is nothing more than child abuse imposed by the government – by ending their childhood as soon as possible.

    Unlike maths Ryan – kids don’t need to know anything at all about sex, sexuality, or any other matter that adults conduct themselves in while naked in private – until they’re 10!

    Biology says so! :cool:

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  250. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    The land of the free and the home of the brave has gone facist.

    Oh do fuck off, it’s the same old patriot fuckwittery.

    Yes I have; please give my compliments to my friends in your State and say to them, that if a single drop of blood shall be shed there in opposition to the laws of the United States, I will hang the first man I can lay my hand on engaged in such treasonable conduct, upon the first tree I can reach.

    – Andrew Jackson, April 1830.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullification_Crisis

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  251. Nostalgia-NZ (5,118 comments) says:

    Judith Collins is talking about establishment of a Victims Commissioner, a sound idea. Such an office would bring accountability to the whole process of the recognition of victims of crime under legislation – a difficult task by any definition though still best in the hands of a Public Office.

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  252. goldnkiwi (1,276 comments) says:

    OMG the irony, such a concern for ‘victims’ from one of the worst kinds of perpetrator. Incredible!!!!

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  253. Nostalgia-NZ (5,118 comments) says:

    Of course vigilante stalkers won’t like it.

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  254. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Oh do fuck off, it’s the same old patriot fuckwittery.

    No it’s different this time cha. They’ve had huge support because a huge number of people have had a gutsful of the US govt’s authoritarian stance. Things have changed over there since the GFC and it’s not just a bunch of rednecks anymore.

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  255. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    From ridiculous to fucking ridiculous – Ronnie Raygun issued the order that Bundy’s defying.

    By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, and in order to provide for establishment of appropriate fees for the grazing of domestic livestock on public rangelands, it is ordered as follows:

    http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1986/21486b.htm

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  256. Harriet (4,848 comments) says:

    “……Judith Collins is talking about establishment of a Victims Commissioner, a sound idea….”

    Will they the victims get $90k a year for food, power, health – and a place to give up things like smoking and gambling addictions?

    Or will they have to keep paying for it – for their assailant?

    If you are the victim of someone who gets jailed – you should then be given a tax deduction of $90k per annum while the sentance is completed – is what most people would call justice for the state failing to prevent you from being so seriously harmed!

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  257. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    Rednecks versus the feds – come at me bro!.

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  258. Nostalgia-NZ (5,118 comments) says:

    Better for that to be in Legislation considered and passed by Parliament Harry.

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  259. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    And in a cloud of stupidity – *poof* – solar plant narrative collapses.

    The Chinese-owned Mojave Energy LLC has terminated plans to build a $6 billion solar project near Laughlin, Nevada after failing to find a buyer for the electricity.

    http://www.utilitydive.com/news/china-s-enn-group-nixes-6b-nevada-solar-project/142251/

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  260. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    goldnkiwi: Aint that the truth? The Killer somehow thinks that 10 years in jail for Margaret’s killing somehow makes him an OK kind of guy…and those of us who comment negatively upon him are “whiny”… He’ll probably fuck off now though..he prefers it when Mummy is here to defend him…Such a brave boy…

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  261. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    David, who is the killer?

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  262. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ is one of New Zealand’s relatively few (although there are more than most people think) double killers…i.e he killed once, served a sentence for manslaughter, then came out and killed again…For some reason I can’t fathom our host is very wary of him…I would very much like to cause him to breach parole in some way, and go back where he belongs…

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  263. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    Ok, thanks.

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  264. lilman (953 comments) says:

    Interesting how we are able to know less about a subject than we think,but to actually KNOW the truth is sometimes, if not more often, scary than the suggested or percieved knowledge.
    Sleep tight for those in the know.

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  265. ShawnLH (4,600 comments) says:

    “He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.” (Colossians 1:13)

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  266. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Hope cons in US pens are organising a reception for the obese criminal kraut. It can’t be long before we have an in depth report by MSM on his actual behaviour, they can’t sweep it under the carpet or much longer, even Komrad Little can’t pull that many union strings . . . can he?
    See reborn socialist “Catman” Morgan has the country’s bludgers at heart . . . maybe he could donate some of the money his son made him to the Waitangi Tribunal!

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  267. Nostalgia-NZ (5,118 comments) says:

    Poor old Garrett vainly battling on with the Privacy Commissioner meanwhile the Minister of Justice looks to formalise the role of a Commissioner so he spits the dummy.

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  268. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    HEMP
    has its use
    AND Its more civilized than a blast of lead balls from a distance

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