General Debate 14 April 2014

April 14th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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246 Responses to “General Debate 14 April 2014”

  1. tom hunter (4,436 comments) says:

    Several days ago – before the living hell of 911 Trutherisim descended upon KB – I saw an interesting comment from Tom Jackson about Libertarianism vs. Communism:

    It’s obviously not the best way to organise a society, but it works after a fashion. Libertarianism on the other hand has never been shown to work at all. That’s my point: communism is proven to deliver a reasonably functional society. Libertarians have no examples of even partially successful mass societies run on Libertarian principles.

    I thought that was a good point about the USSR, as long as one was willing to incorporate a gulag of millions and a police state into the term reasonably functional.

    But if one was willing to make that accommodation for the USSR – and I was for the sake of argument – then might 19th century USA also count as a reasonably functional society, if one was willing to incorporate the vast crime of slavery in the first half of that time? And was the USA of that period not a reasonable match for a Libertarian society as most people understand: minimal small government with very few economic rules and regulations?

    Clearly any Libertarian would immediately take exception to the match – not least because of slavery. But the same could be said of communists looking at the USSR. The key word here is “reasonable”. So I made the argument here and took a look at GDP growth for 1800-1910 (GDP 57 times larger at the end) and 1910-2010 (GDP 25.7 times larger at the end), as a broad comparison of the Non-Progressive vs. Progressive periods in terms of being reasonably functional societies.

    Now I rather expected some Hard-Lefter to ignore this nuance and jump on the slavery aspect – which had gone as unmentioned as the Gulags in my comment – and Yoza predictably did so.

    Sadly Weihana, who is usually better than this, went the same route into full Shields Up mode for his beloved Social Welfare state. He made two points.

    First was a reasonable one about my GDP stats, pointing out that the US population had increased 18 times during the first period, while population had only increased 3 times from 1910 to 2010, plus the usual snark:

    I’ll leave it to you to consider why your analysis might seem somewhat shallow.

    Which would have been true if I’d been trying to prove something about economic growth between the two periods.

    But I wasn’t.

    The purpose of the analysis was simply to address the question of whether a reasonably Libertarian society – one at least much more Libertarian than today’s Social Democratic welfare state – could produce a “reasonably functioning society”. I don’t think there is any question that the USA had done so by 1910, if not a bit earlier.

    Unfortunately Weihana’s analysis went downhill after that into Yoza territory:

    It’s an interesting insight into certain prejudices and bias. For some the complete subjudgation of people based on their skin colour has little impact on their assessment of how “free” a society is (or was rather)….

    It’s an interesting insight that defenders of the modern Social Welfare state feel that they have to constantly try and imply that “laissez-faire” economics was responsible for slavery. I would have thought child labour and dark, satanic mills were sufficient basis for counterpoint.

    The only problem with the race-slavery angle is that – and I’m quoting from memory here (from the The Civil War series) – the total economic production of all thirteen Confederate states did not add up to even that of New York state. In short the reasonably Libertarian economies of the Northern states would not have noticed if the Slave states had vanished into the ocean: economically they didn’t need them.

    But like most good Obama supporters and modern Democrats, Weihana just cannot see past skin colour:

    …. but paying tax to fund healthcare and education is apparently quite a burden on freedom such that today’s society is much less “laissez-faire” than a slave-owning society was.

    The US was a slave-owning society from 1865 to 1910? The Civil War was a farce then? You’re going to relentlessly focus on 60 out of the 110 years so that you can make endless comparisons between a slave-owning society in the South of the country – the economic tail of the USA even in the mid 1800’s – and our modern social welfare state, in order to attack Libertarian economics. That’s a pretty pathetic diversionary argument.

    Then the trifecta:

    I suppose it was “laissez-faire” for the people that mattered, but for others the government was an all-encompassing presence in their lives: sanctioning and enforcing a system which allowed some people to own other people as property.

    The “laissez-faire” economic approach of the Northern States should be blamed for the all-encompassing presence of the Democrat Party enforcing slavery in the South? Rather than racism, apathy on the part of the North and good old dirty political compromise?

    You said something about shallow analysis, yes?

    Okay, just to recap, the point of the original analysis was not to compare GDP-per-capita growth rates between the Progressive and Non-Progressive periods of US history. It was not to make value judgements between then and now, not even between the USSR circa 1960 and the USA circa 1910.

    The point was to argue that a mass society – 19th century USA – was a reasonable match with Libertarian ideas and had produced a reasonably functioning society.

    Finally it should be noted that this society was the one that actually did wipe out slavery, despite being “laissez-faire”. In fact some historians have argued that it was precisely the laissez-faire capitalism of the North that drove the fight against slavery – but they don’t mark that as a compliment to the former.

    Libertarian theory did not get rid of slavery in the USA; democratic government did that – but then it was democratic government that allowed it in the first place and enforced it, a point that the Far-Left have often used to condemn the US in general and democracy in particular, an argument similar to Weihana’s but with more coherence and strength.

    In an age of increasing government control of our lives (except when it comes to sex), you might think that historical fact would give pause to statists like Weihana?

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  2. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    So “Catman” Morgan, Hadfield, and the fat German criminal think we should be taxed on our boats, beach houses, nice cars, and money we have worked for.
    The “Catman” should be taxed under the auspices of unearned income, he received wealth from his son’s business nous, not his own; Slobcom stole his, and Hadfield, like the rest of his ilk, has never done a day’s work in his miserable life.
    This left-wing sense of entitlement has got worse, and will further continue so long as we have arseholes like Espiners driving their doctrine in MSM, being adhered to by scum that frequent pubs daily, not working, just thieving, whinging, envying, breeding, and leeching in general.

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  3. hj (6,382 comments) says:

    Professor Spoonley wags his finger at the media:

    Given the pressure on the property market, especially in Auckland, it is easy to see why Asians might receive negative publicity. In another year, it could be the purchase of New Zealand businesses or farmland. The influence of negative media publicity should be an ongoing concern.

    http://asianz.org.nz/newsroom/insight/aotearoa-and-its-asian-communities

    Van Dijk (1993) has been influential, both in terms of the use of a particular methodology
    (content analysis) and the advocacy of a particular approach to the media’s role in
    influencing intergroup relations and imagery. In his use of content analysis, he has been
    concerned with both surface representation and underlying meanings (Mahtani,
    2001:109). For him, the media have constructed and reproduced racism (Van Dijk, 1993:
    279):

    …the media play a central role in the reproduction of racism both because
    of their relationship to other elite institutions and because of their
    structural influence in shaping and changing the social mind…large
    segments of the white public have little or no alternative information
    sources on ethnic affairs.

    This is best represented for Van Dijk in the emphasis on immigrants as a “problem” or
    “problems”, particularly in terms of the illegality of their presence, the “large” numbers involved, fraud, and as demographic or cultural threats (Van Dijk,1993:248). In his
    approach, the media are a key agent in the reproduction of racism and in maintaining
    white hegemony (Van Dijk, 1993: 279).

    DEFINING IDENTITY AND CREATING CITIZENS :
    THE MEDIA AND IMMIGRANTS IN NEW ZEALAND

    Paul Spoonley

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  4. Pete George (22,868 comments) says:

    On the Internet mission it’s looking like Harawira’s way or the highway.

    He was happy that Mana had seen “hundreds and hundreds” of new members sign up since the party had begun talks with the Internet Party.“You win some you lose some.”

    “Will there be resignations, quite possibly. There haven’t been today.”

    “There’s always going to be people who come in and out for various reasons and that’s fine.”

    “We can’t determine Mana’s future on the feelings of one activist or another.”

    And despite the vote to go to party consultation is it already a done deal?

    Mr Harawira indicated the final decision would be made by senior party figures rather than a wider vote.

    “It will probably be made by the executive in the final analysis.”

    - Bradford walks out of Mana AGM
    - Harawira shrugs off defections danger over Dotcom deal”

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  5. jonnobanks (147 comments) says:

    Another munter involved in an accident after fleeing the police. Bet you, their waste of a space family will blame the police and say this scumbag is a good church boy.

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  6. OneTrack (2,624 comments) says:

    Sue will be glad to hear that she is just some activist.

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  7. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Doctors implant lab-grown vagina
    http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26885335

    There is hope Harry it. he/she/it ? may not need to use the other orifice after corrective surgery.

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  8. Keeping Stock (10,120 comments) says:

    Our resident songwriter Curly Sue has been busy again over the weekend, pondering the dance of Dotcom and Harawira; (s)he’s put the words to an Eagles classic, and the result is outstanding!

    Here’s how the song begins:

    Roto-vegas state highway, ill wind blowing near
    Warm smell of sulphur, rising up through the air
    Up ahead in the distance, I saw an SUV’s lights
    It was a convoy carrying German Kim
    Were there no available flights?
    There he filled up the doorway
    Talking on his cell
    And I was thinking he’s so fat,
    “Giving this man a hongi could be hell”
    The he took to the lectern, Sue Bradford ran away
    There were voices down the corridor,
    I thought I heard them say…

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/04/song-of-day-14-april-2014.html

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  9. jonnobanks (147 comments) says:

    Should we all join the Internet Party and then screw with their policies … such a dumb idea making policy via a Wikipedia type model.

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  10. Scott Chris (5,896 comments) says:

    I would have thought child labour and dark, satanic mills were sufficient basis for counterpoint.

    Same thing really. A free market is an efficient system but it has no intrinsic morality.

    I’d’ve thought that how ‘free’ a society is refers to how free the average citizen is.

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  11. hj (6,382 comments) says:

    @ Tom Hunter. DVD 2 in Gangs of New York has an interesting insight into the lawlessness at that time (firemen letting houses burn down or fighting over them – I forget?). A bit like China today?. George Friedman had a piece about the geographic advantages of the US (compared to Russia)
    http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/georgefriedman/2011/09/19/the_geopolitics_of_the_united_states,_part_1_the_inevitable_empire/page/full
    Something to think about.

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  12. tvb (4,210 comments) says:

    Child Labour has been supplanted by our welfare system in which households see children as an income stream to get welfare entitlements. The money then gets spent to feed to parent’s drug, alcohol and smoking habits. There kids go to school hungry begging for food from other children. These sorts of families exist.

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  13. jonnobanks (147 comments) says:

    First policy for the Internet Party, extradite Dotcom. If enough of us join, we can do this.

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  14. Yvette (2,694 comments) says:

    Sykes said she favoured a model which she described as a partnership where Mana candidates would run in Maori seats as Mana candidates, rather than joint representatives, then the parties would negotiate their combined list.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/9936818/Dissent-as-Mana-and-Dotcom-draw-nearer

    “Mana candidates would run in Maori seats as Mana candidates,
    rather than joint representatives,”
    then somehow that qualifies seats from some combined Mana/Internet Party list?

    How the whuck does that work?
    And isn’t it time the Electoral Commission confirm it can’t !
    Not in the way their past little MMP ads have so far convinced us … except for Annette :-)

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  15. peterwn (3,168 comments) says:

    Pete George – however it seems that he has a force to be reckoned with – his missus. She does not seem too keen on the deal.

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  16. EAD (633 comments) says:

    I’ve been following the saga of the Bundy ranch over the weekend and the good news is that the Government and Feds have backed down and withdrawn (for the time being at least). Thousands of armed militia travelled to the Bundy Ranch in Nevada to stand with Bundy as armed Government agencies tried to confiscate and destroy his cattle from the area his family have farmed for over 140 years on the pretext that a tortoise existed on the land and therefore the land’s usage for cattle would have to decrease.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-12/why-standoff-bundy-ranch-very-big-deal

    My takeaways from these events are:
    - The green agenda is being constantly ramped up as a form of quasi communism and removing peoples economic and personal freedoms.
    - There is still a very strong community spirit in America especially in rural areas where people are self-reliant and look out for their neighbours which you don’t evidence so much in cities.
    - The American people must never let their government take away their guns. The root of the problem is the Government monopoly of violence in the name of monopoly of benevolence. Why would anyone want to grant the government a monopoly on violence to exercise a monopoly of benevolence? It makes no sense.

    As the great Thomas Jefferson once said: “When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.”

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  17. itstricky (1,580 comments) says:

    The “Catman” should be taxed under the auspices of unearned income, he received wealth from his son’s business nous, not his own; Slobcom stole his, and Hadfield, like the rest of his ilk, has never done a day’s work in his miserable life.

    Oh those lefties. Always jealous of what someone else has got.

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  18. tom hunter (4,436 comments) says:

    DVD 2 in Gangs of New York has an interesting insight into the lawlessness at that time (firemen letting houses burn down or fighting over them

    Interesting. As I recall that was set in the very middle of the 19th century, and there were similar incidents in London before reform of the fire services.

    But those situations had largely been fixed even by the 1880′s, let alone the turn of the century, and they were not fixed through the mechanisms of a vast centralised government in Washington D.C. – the trend over the last 50 years.

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  19. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (338 comments) says:

    @ Yvette 8.31

    So, if Annette Sykes theory works, do away with any Dotcom connection.
    Just have Mana candidates run in Maori seats as Mana candidates, trusting Hone will win.

    And have a “$100,000 TO EVERY MAORI AND YOUNG VOTER NGATI PARTY” to whack up a eye-watering party vote for Hone to combine with.

    Do the Electoral Commission need a complaint before they spoil everyone’s fun?

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  20. KiwiGreg (3,181 comments) says:

    If Morgan thinks his trade me profits were unearned and should be taxed how much has he voluntarily handed over to the government? Or is that just a cheap comment about how future people (not him) “Should” be taxed. I’ve yet to meet anyone who says “I’d be happy to pay more tax” who actually freely pays more tax.

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  21. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    kiwigreg – same. i reckon there should be a new tax code.

    whatever we have now plus a big “L”. for lefty/loser. people can choose to pay this tax code and all the extra money the govt gets can go into lefty pet schemes. all $53 of it..

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  22. kowtow (7,656 comments) says:

    igm

    Re Catman,Slobcon et al

    All sins are forgiven at the altar of “equality”,in which name all manner of hypocrisy can be justified.

    Free markets and intrinsic morality.

    Adam Smith and those enlightenment philosophers had their theories on how free markets operated.They could not refer to “God”,Allah or any other deity. So as we all know the morality that does underpin western culture and that does explain so much altruism that we see daily had to be incorporated somewhere……..

    …….thus the “invisible hand”.

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  23. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    I know the way Sue Bradford speaks has been mentioned many times.. but my god.

    At this stage in her life, it has to be put on? no one can stay THAT trashy for so long. especially now shes been a rich prick for many years.

    it sounds like shes got a mouth full of something when she speaks. just gross.

    also, why hasnt someone put mana or hone on tradme? going cheap :D

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  24. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    One last rant for the day – the NZ media can get fucked!

    apparently the mana/dot com deal is JUST LIKE what national does with Act.

    idiots.

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  25. doggone7 (705 comments) says:

    Oh the joys of the morning and the delights of the alphabet! It took but three letters to switch on my clock properly and realise that it was two other letters I really needed. Yes, I read igm and knew when finished knew that it was wc I was really after.

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  26. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    “When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.”

    Spurious.

    Status: We have not found any evidence that Thomas Jefferson said or wrote, “When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny,” nor any evidence that he wrote its listed variations.

    http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/when-government-fears-people-there-libertyquotation

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  27. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Got a downtick for pointing that out, cha. Strange. I know fake quotes are fairly popular on Kiwiblog, but still.

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  28. All_on_Red (1,394 comments) says:

    EAD
    Some great coverage here of the Bundy drama. Both sides aren’t blameless but I agree with you about the people standing up to the Feds and that Americans should never waive the right to bear arms to protect themselves from their own government.
    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch

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  29. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    EAD – the dude sounds dodgy but great to see the feds backing down.

    You can see why tyrants like pol pot, hitler, bruv (hehe) dont want people having guns

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  30. EAD (633 comments) says:

    That’s the wonderful thing about the internet Cha – you can type anything into google like “Thomas Jefferson fake quote” and you will be sure to come up with some link you can post on Kiwiblog create a strawman. The argument as Dime notes is that Politicians don’t want their population armed as it acts as a check against tyrannical government.

    I often use quotes from those whom I consider great minds(particularly Voltaire, Socrates, Bastiat, Tolstoy, Mencken & Jefferson) as a way of supporting/adding to my arguments as greater minds than mind have spent time on these issues.

    Like Socrates once said “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser” :)

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  31. Sofia (819 comments) says:

    Like Yvette and Puzzled, I can not understand how under MMP, Mana Party and the Internet Party can achieve any joint aim unless they formally combine under a third name, so everyone qualified to vote for Harawira will know it is a vote that may bring Internet Party List Members in with an electorate seat Hone may win, and that from a united Party Vote, neither party would actually know who favoured Mana or Internet, just both.

    While the two parties are still in the early stages of understanding how their possible alliance could work, Mr Kumar stressed that neither party had to give up their sovereignty.
    “It was never meant to be looked at as a merger.”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11237670

    Kumar seems to know as little as Sykes

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  32. All_on_Red (1,394 comments) says:

    Actually that Breibart link above is a great example of quality journalism. The topic is well explored and without bias. You’d never see anything like that from the MSM here in NZ. Time past, yes, but not today.

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  33. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Too easy EAD – Monticello, the home of all things Jeffersonian says you’re making shit up.

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  34. Pete George (22,868 comments) says:

    John Minto explains the pros and cons and pertinent questions – Minto on Mana/IP alliance pros, cons and questions.

    But the Mana decision making gets more bizarre.

    First Hone Harawira and Dotcom promoted the deal.
    Then the delegates and Rohe voted to take it to party consultation and voting.
    The Hone said the decision would probably be made by the executive.

    Now it’s been reported that Hones wife Hilda is against it and if she says no “it’s probably no”.

    Who really calls the shots in the “Mana movement”? Will Hone’s wife have the final say?

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  35. MT_Tinman (2,995 comments) says:

    EAD (305 comments) says:
    April 14th, 2014 at 9:47 am

    Like Socrates once said “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser”

    In Portuguese of course. ;-)

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  36. UglyTruth (4,036 comments) says:

    Mr Kumar stressed that neither party had to give up their sovereignty.

    NZ political parties are not sovereign, they have to obey the rules of participation in the Crown’s process.

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  37. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Tom,

    “The US was a slave-owning society from 1865 to 1910?”

    No. And even during the period of slavery it was not ubiquitous. Calling the entire US at any time a “slave owning society” is deliberate overstatement, a form of reductio ad absurdum. And note that Weihana or Yoza did not call the Soviet Union a gulag society, or a genocide society. Gee, I wonder why?

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  38. Pete George (22,868 comments) says:

    Despite Mr Kumar’s insistent that the Internet Party would distance itself from Dotcom and operate independently the party visionary is centre stage and stage left and stage right at the moment.

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  39. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Hello Ugly. I note the other day you said you were not a Freeman on the land. I was wondering whether you could outline for me where your legal philosophy differs from theirs.

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  40. UglyTruth (4,036 comments) says:

    the dude sounds dodgy but great to see the feds backing down.

    Nowhere near as dodgy as the “reclassification” of the land as federal property.

    But great to see the US federal crime syndicate backing down.

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  41. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    I’m often struck, amused, and/or annoyed at the number of KB “experts” on the current US or US history who have never stepped foot in the country let alone lived there.

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  42. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Yeah, guns are good.

    /

    http://www.kmbc.com/news/fatal-shooting-reported-at-ops-jewish-community-center/25457124

    https://twitter.com/AFGutierrez/status/455429702497222656/photo/1

    http://www.reddit.com/r/GunsAreCool/wiki/2014massshootings

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  43. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Mike, why, why do you keep encouraging him???

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  44. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Coz I’m genuinely interested in the sources of his pseudolegal woo.

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  45. EAD (633 comments) says:

    Cha – research the word “democide”. In the last century, more than 260 million people have been killed………by their own governments. Add to that the hundreds of millions killed by wars started by…..politicians and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out who shouldn’t have a monopoly on violence and theft in a defined area which when you think about it, is exactly what a Government is by definition.

    History has ALWAYS been about the relationship between the rulers an the ruled. When I see people like you eternally stuck in th false left/right paradigm I sometimes wonder why I bother. It’s like arguing with a naive student marxist with your throwaway one-liners.

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  46. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Well, so far season two of ‘American Horror Story’ is much better than the first.

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  47. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    Shawn – well done on yesterdays GD!

    Approx 60 comments out of 268.. that’s a ratio better than 1 in 5!

    And we thought PG was unstoppable!

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  48. tom hunter (4,436 comments) says:

    … the dude sounds dodgy but great to see the feds backing down.

    That makes him sound like a used car dealer, when he’s really just one of these old cusses who lives out West and raises a few cattle. Apparently the origin of the dispute is that he’s been grazing cattle on land adjacent to his 150 acre ranch, land owned by the Federal government, and has refused to pay grazing fees. Since the Feds own something like 80% of the land in Nevada it’s been common practice for over a century for ranchers to graze cattle. So it’s not uncommon, and the fees business was actually signed into law by Ronald Reagan in the mid-1980′s. This dispute with Bundy has been cranking along for 20 years and legally it does not look like he has a leg to stand on.

    Having said that it looks like yet another example of the US Feds acting as described in this quote:

    We have police SWAT teams in full body armor responding to situations that Barney Fife could have handled with a chat on the front porch.

    Apparently the Bureau of Land Management who were driving this clusterfuck, actually had snipers deployed? That may just be a rumour but then you find out that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has its own law enforcement division with 191 employees, including 96 special agents and 28 enforcement officers who carry weapons, it becomes a little easier to believe. Maybe the AGW Deniers are scarier than we thought? NOAA for christ’s sake! But they’re hardly alone, the following Federal agencies also have armed agents, and they’ve used them:

    - The U.S. Department of Education
    - The Bureau of Land Management (200 uniformed law enforcement rangers and 70 special agents)
    - The U.S. Department of the Interior
    - The U.S. Postal Inspection Service (with an armed uniformed division of 1.000)
    - The National Park Service (made up of NPS protection park rangers and U.S. Park Police officers that operate independently)
    - The Environmental Protection Agency (200 special agents)
    - The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (224 special agents)

    FFS. Read this article by former LA cop to see what’s happening to US police:

    Some years ago I participated in a large-scale operation that targeted a particular street gang in South Los Angeles. In addition to the LAPD, the FBI, ATF, and DEA were involved, and when it came time to serve the many search and arrest warrants on the wanted suspects’ homes, the locations were divided up among the various agencies. When I arrived at the command post prior to sunrise on warrant day, I was amazed at the array of armored vehicles the feds had assembled for the day’s task. Some of them were enormous, and most were painted in the military-style scheme that reflected their desert war heritage. As both Balko and Fasman point out, since the 9/11 attacks and the onset of the War on Terror, federal and local law enforcement agencies have received great quantities of military surplus equipment, and on this particular morning the feds saw fit to put some of it to use, no matter how unnecessarily.

    Fasman cites Peter Kraska, professor at Eastern Kentucky University’s School of Justice Studies, who estimates that in 1980, SWAT teams were deployed about 3,000 times across America but are now used 50,000 times a year, many of them in circumstances that would not appear to demand heavy firepower. The cities of Baltimore and Dallas, Fasman writes, have used SWAT teams to break up illegal poker games. The thinking within some departments seems to be, “We paid for the stuff, we might as well use it.

    But I guess it’s only a problem with you’ve got John Ashcroft as the Attorney General: I heard much screaming from the Left about a Police State during the Bush Administration. Now, not so much. On the contrary I saw Cha yesterday actually getting a real hard-on at the prospect of using cluster-bombs on those dirty Rednecks.

    Yeee ha!

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  49. edhunter (498 comments) says:

    Shawn plenty of experts on here espousing God & the baby Jesus who have never met or been spoken to by these esteemed gentlemen but that doesn’t appear to stop them hijacking GD with pretty monotonous regularity.

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  50. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    And a mounted mob of numpties wielding small arms is the solution, of course it is EAD.
    /

    https://twitter.com/slackadjuster/status/455430399120773120/photo/1

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  51. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Not a lot else to do dime apart from watching dvds. My physio is insistent I don’t start work until my arm is fully healed.

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  52. leftyliberal (642 comments) says:

    @KiwiGreg wrote: “If Morgan thinks his trade me profits were unearned and should be taxed how much has he voluntarily handed over to the government? Or is that just a cheap comment about how future people (not him) “Should” be taxed. I’ve yet to meet anyone who says “I’d be happy to pay more tax” who actually freely pays more tax.”

    Instead of debating whether or not Morgan’s suggestion that his capital gains should have been taxed, you argue that because he didn’t voluntarily contribute the money we can ignore the argument as a “cheap comment”.

    If, as you assert, Morgan should have freely paid more tax so that he could make his point, at which rate should that tax have been paid, before you took his argument seriously?

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  53. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Yeee ha!

    I’m sorry Tom, didn’t I use /sarc/.

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  54. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    edhunter,

    met and heard Jesus. Wouldn’t be a Christian if I hadn’t.

    “but that doesn’t appear to stop them hijacking GD”

    You mean simply speaking and engaging in debate? Silly them thinking they have that right. :)

    Why do atheists think KB is an atheists only blog?

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  55. UglyTruth (4,036 comments) says:

    I was wondering whether you could outline for me where your legal philosophy differs from theirs.

    I don’t think they have any definitive legal philosophy. Their name implies that they are anarchists or atheists: a man’s freedom is limited by natural law, so a free man is someone who is not subject to that law. In that sense it is an offshoot of United Nations humanist legal philosophy.

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  56. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Oh well, just thought their rationales sounded similar to yours. Anyway, does the Land Transport Act apply to you?

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  57. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    /sarc /

    We must make allowances for the Fox sponsored infection of rwnj

    Why do conservatives think KB is a conservative blog?

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  58. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Personally I think it’s just a blog by a liberal rightie. Speaking of which, I wonder how our host is doing. He seemed to be struggling the last time he posted.

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  59. Left Right and Centre (2,825 comments) says:

    (1) It’s Easter which means it’s time for retailers to have their annual whine about how they can’t open on every day of every year. And it fills the talkback waves with all manner of idiotic nonsense.

    It’s a Christian day off. Not a day off for shopping. It reminds me of someone that calls in sick – and then goes away for a long weekend. If you’re sick off work – you’re too sick to do anything else except moan about it.

    Why try to open for Easter ? Deeply religious Christians aren’t desperate to shop at Easter, are they ? And Easter is the big one – how weird is that ? So – complain about being shut at Easter but not Christmas – which in fact if anything is number two in the liturgical year – huh ?

    Again – they’re only shut for about three days a year – three stinking little days mate – far out. Three days !! You can’t be closed for three days a year ? Beggars belief.

    (2) The UK produces quality TV presenters which is why I watched ‘Locomotion: Dan Snow’s History of Railways’ – it’s on tonight on Choice TV. Dan Snow doesn’t irritate me even a little bit which is a miracle. What a wonderful speaking voice.http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01q16wj

    If you’ve got too many entertainment options you’ll struggle to find time to catch it I know.

    Also I think worth a look ‘You Live In What ?’ It’s a programme I actually make effort to not miss.http://www.hgtv.com/you-live-in-what/show/index.html

    When will Choice TV follow the NZ ritual of going bust and bought out by a big player, hmmm ? Enjoy it while it lasts…..

    (3) When did Hilary Barry turn into Pam Corkery ? Why do half of NZ women sound like cackling bull dykes ?

    (4) Why is it that Mediaworks don’t know how to dress a woman to present the news ? They could take some lessons from the visiting fashion model. Jarnika ter Ellen is the exception and can look exquisite – something to do with Paul Henry and good taste ? It’s not just them either. TVNZ are just as bad. These poor women fronting up to a national viewing audience in the most hideous figure deforming ugly expensive rubbish – it’s a joke. They look dreadful. I turn them off if they look too stupid for words.

    (5) My vote for pretentious wanker 2014 – NZ ‘barista of the year’ Nick Clark on some programme I switched off as it become unbearable having done all I could to watch it – demonstrating how to do this queer little sucking technique of his espresso or whatever it was. A poofterish little air suck with a tiny little twerpish movement of head backward of tiny little cup followed by weird little lip smacking. If that’s what coffee culture is at its zenith I’ll happily stick to being a peasant. You’d laugh at him. Shit mate – are you serious ? That is one of the queerist things you’ll see. And that’s going out to people in Ireland. People in Wellington are all weirdo poofs like Nick Clark. Fantastic.

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  60. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “When will Choice TV follow the NZ ritual of going bust and bought out by a big player, hmmm ?”

    That would be a shame. There are some damn good Brit docos on Choice.

    “‘You Live In What ?’”

    Yup, that’s one of my faves.

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  61. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    “That makes him sound like a used car dealer” – oi! some of us here may have done that for a living at some point!

    “My physio is insistent I don’t start work until my arm is fully healed.” – so, you injured your wanking arm?

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  62. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “so, you injured your wanking arm?”

    Only one of them. Some of us are blessed in such a way that we need both. ;)

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  63. UglyTruth (4,036 comments) says:

    does the Land Transport Act apply to you?

    The Land Transport Act only applies to persons.

    person: A man considered according to the rank he holds in society, with all the rights to which the place he holds entitles him, and the duties which it imposes. 1 Bouv. Inst. no. 137. A human being considered as capable of having rights and or being charged with duties, while a “thing” is the object over which rights may be exercised. (Black’s 2nd (1910))

    So as far as a man is concerned, if there is no legal relationship with society in which rights and duties are established, then he is not a person.
    One of these rights is the right to a lawyer. If a man refuses to accept this right, then he is in a much stronger position to refute any claim that he owes any duty, eg the duty to obey the legislation of the state.

    As to the question of whether any particular man owes any duty to society, there is legal principle relating to duty that is similar to the presumption of innocence, i.e no duty is presumed to exist.

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  64. Nostalgia-NZ (4,918 comments) says:

    Annette Sykes seems to think joining with the IP will mean instant higher membership for Mana as they take advantage of Dotcom’s internet expertise. It seems she doesn’t realise the distinct difference between the digital age and the broader base of Mana members compared to those that have joined the IP. She is also gushing about Mana helping enable a Green candidate win a seat off the Maori party – she’s very excited. But if she has failed to grasp the first point she is in for a disappointment, as for the second it will be no easy feat. Despite that, Hone playing the line out to the media and gaining full advantage for his party along with telling Sue who is boss (although there are claims above that it is his wife who runs things) he couldn’t have hoped for more mileage than what he’s getting at the moment. Obviously Annette Sykes is of the mind that what Mana proposes to do is simply exploit the full extent of MMP, as other parties do – hard to say she is wrong on that. Very early but it seems that the MP will be influential either by electoral defeat or victory as to who forms the next Government, as was the case in the last election. Overall perhaps a situation of political uncertainty for the economy while Cunliffe tries to draw in NZF and keep The Greens in his pocket.

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  65. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    That would be one to hold back the revolting folds of surplus gut flesh the other to search for the extremely small seldom seen target

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  66. tom hunter (4,436 comments) says:

    I’m sorry Tom, didn’t I use /sarc/.

    Supporters of the 2nd Amendment in the USA have often argued that its primary motivation is not to enable individuals protection from criminals but from a dictatorial or totalitarian government: I’ve often seen left-wingers make the counter argument that this is stupid given the overwhelming military firepower of the state, especially in the USA: Silly little people. Let’s see how their six-shooters cope with tanks and fighter-bombers. In fact I think you’ve made that argument yourself in relation to the idea of armed Jews in Nazi Germany.

    Then there’s your oft expressed contempt for US Southerners and Westerners as apparently little more than direct descendants of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

    So no! It was not obvious to me that you were being sarcastic – at all.

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  67. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Did you say your prayers to Gaia this morning Griff? ;)

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  68. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “Then there’s your oft expressed contempt for US Southerners and Westerners as apparently little more than direct descendants of Nathan Bedford Forrest.”

    So cha has lived in the US? Gee, let me guess……. :)

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  69. kowtow (7,656 comments) says:

    Great news on the fracking front. Now if the “environmentalists” (economic saboteurs) could just get out of the way of progress and prosperity…..

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/09/shale-usa-idUSL6N0N13JK20140409

    Fracking reverses global energy flows.

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  70. Fletch (6,032 comments) says:

    re: Bundy, I’d heard (and a blogger has found documents pertaining to) that Harry Reid & son were grabbing all the land so a Chinese company (in which they had a vested interest) could use it for solar panels.

    Mark Levin, famed lawyer, author, legal scholar, and former Chief of Staff to Attorney General Ed Meese says Cliven Bundy is right.

    Levin explained in his April 11th broadcast how Bundy had agreements with the State of Nevada before the BLM claimed jurisdiction.

    Originally Bundy and the other ranchers in the area cooperated with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). They negotiated water rights and grazing rights, building of roads and irrigation all with the approval of the state and BLM.

    BLM was collecting fees from Bundy and the other ranchers in the area when BLM reneged on their earlier agreements. BLM began a systematic and deliberate campaign to drive ranchers out of Southern Nevada. Levin said that while the BLM had granted itself the power to behave in such a way to make it “legal”,  BLM’s war on local ranchers is a deliberate abuse of power.

    Among the tactics used by BLM was a mandate for “environmental” reasons that Bundy and the other ranchers in the area decrease their cattle hurd to 150 head, which would put every rancher out of business and did, leaving Cliven Bundy the last rancher standing.

    BLM demands that ranchers sign a contract agreeing to new terms before they take payment. While BLM was successful in driving every other rancher out Cliven Bundy refused to agree to the new terms, stopped paying BLM and a 20 year legal battle began.

    Another tactic that BLM engaged is was to declare much of the land off limits because they said that the Desert Tortoise was endangered, while at the same time the population of Desert Tortoises was so abundant that the government initiated a program to hunt them.

    Late on April 11th,  bloggers searching public documents discovered that Nevada Senator Harry Reid, whose former long term aid now directs BLM, has been negotiating a deal with a Chinese energy firm to build a $5 billion solar energy facility on the land surrounding the Bundy Ranch. Harry Reid’s son represents the Chinese firm looking to develop said land.

    After the news of Harry Reid’s involvement in plans to seize and develop these lands with the Chinese had begun to go viral on the internet, the following morning the BLM agreed to pull it’s 200 armed men out and return seized cattle to Cliven Bundy. At the time of this writing the BLM had not indicated if the arrival of nearly 2000 armed “citizen militia” was a factor in their motivation to stand down.

    http://politicalarena.org/2014/04/13/former-chief-of-staff-to-attorney-general-ed-meese-says-bundy-is-right/

    Here’s video of the face-down (which has been described as like something out of a movie).

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  71. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/11/us-colorado-marijuana-idUSBREA3A1X720140411

    (Reuters) – Colorado, the first state to tax legalized recreational marijuana sales, expects to bring in an estimated $98 million in revenue this year, exceeding the state’s original expectations by 40 percent.

    The state began levying sales and excise taxes on recreational marijuana on January 1, 2014. Moody’s Investors Service, in a report released Friday, said legal sales in Colorado will reduce the size of the black market and revenue from legal sales will mean more tax payments flowing into state coffers.

    The funds are slated for treatment, school construction and deterring young people from using the drug. School districts will likely get $40 million, or nearly 30 percent, of the projected $134 million in total marijuana tax revenues. New revenues will only make up 1.4 percent of the state’s available general fund.

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  72. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    The solar project was ditched last year Fletch.

    http://lasvegas.cbslocal.com/2013/06/17/company-nixes-nev-solar-project/

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  73. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (790 comments) says:

    Cunliffe keeps talking nonsense and getting away with it because the scumbags of the media give him a free ride. Corin Dann’s interview with Cunliffe on Q & A and Cunliffe’s comments on CGT is a prime example of how an idiot gets a free ride among fellow idiots….

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  74. tom hunter (4,436 comments) says:

    The militarisation of US police forces is one part of the problem, and it’s bad enough, but when it’s combined with the second part, that’s when it starts to get ugly, and the second part is the criminalisation of nearly everything, as this book goes into some detail to explain: Three Felonies a Day

    The average professional in this country wakes up in the morning, goes to work, comes home, eats dinner, and then goes to sleep, unaware that he or she has likely committed several federal crimes that day. Why? The answer lies in the very nature of modern federal criminal laws, which have not only exploded in number, but, along with countless regulatory provisions, have also become impossibly broad and vague.
    In Three Felonies a Day, Harvey A. Silverglate reveals how the federal criminal justice system has become dangerously disconnected from common law traditions of due process and fair notice of the law’s expectations, enabling prosecutors to pin arguable federal crimes on any one of us, for even the most seemingly innocuous behaviour.

    That would sound like so much paranoia were it not for the increasing number of incidents that are being recorded where people find their nuts getting squeezed in order to comply with a government demand, by being threatened with prosecution over some infraction of the law that they were not even aware of. Paraphrasing Beria I think: You have already broken the law, it merely remains to find out how.

    Combine that with the militarisation of the Federal agencies (and even the local cops) and you get things like this:

    A judge this week struck down a US government scheme to seize a Tewksbury, Mass., motel because it had become a haven for drug dealers, bolstering concerns about whether US prosecutors in some cases have too much power. The decision in the long-running forfeiture case comes as the US attorney in Boston, Carmen Ortiz, is already under fire for her role in the death of Internet hacker Aaron Swartz, who killed himself on Jan. 11 as he faced a potentially long prison term for what many in the technology field have noted was nothing more than a breach of a contract involving Internet documents.

    and this:

    While at her father’s house near Fredricksburg, Va., on June 13, 11-year old Skylar Capo rescued a baby woodpecker from being eaten by her cat.

    An avid animal-rescuer, Skylar was excited when her mom, Alison, agreed that she could nurse the bird back to health.

    Alison told CBS News, “She was just going to take care of it for a day or two and let it go.”

    On the way home, the family stopped at a Lowe’s store, bringing the bird with them to shield it from the heat in the car.

    Inside the store, a woman confronted them, saying she was from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. What the Capos didn’t know was that, under the Federal Migratory Bird Act, it is a crime to take or transport a woodpecker.

    Skylar said, “I was a little bit upset, because I didn’t want my mom to get in trouble.”

    However, her mother did get in trouble. Two weeks later, the Capos got an unexpected visit from the same officer they met at Lowe’s, accompanied by a Virginia State trooper. Although the Capos released the woodpecker, Alison was issued a $535 citation.

    The Virginia State Trooper would have been armed of course. But of course this was enabled by that unnamed women from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, your classic grey, faceless bureaucrat who would never think of herself as a Fascist!

    What’s really going on here is summed up in the following quote:

    Oftentimes, the armed agents appear to be used more for intimidation than law enforcement. When armed EPA agents come on your property to cite you for violating the Clean Water Act, or because you’ve run afoul of wetlands regulations, you’re probably not going to give them any lip or backtalk. And you will be more inclined to cooperate.

    Because that’s all that moderate, consensus-driven societies – filled with moderate, mainstream people who would not hurt a fly and are merely doing their jobs – want from you.

    Your cooperation – as subjects, not citizens.

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  75. wreck1080 (3,735 comments) says:

    Communist societies are held together by gunpoint, secrecy, and by the disappearing of dissenters.

    Has there ever been a communist society without these factors?

    Bob Jones had a good article about a group of Aussies who set up ‘New Australia’ in Paraguay based on communist ideals. Predictably it failed…

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/bob-jones/news/article.cfm?a_id=250&objectid=11179472

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  76. Fletch (6,032 comments) says:

    cha, looks like it may not have been the Chinese, but it was still solar energy cronyism, but closer to home.

    http://libertyunyielding.com/2014/04/12/feds-want-relocate-desert-tortoise-chinese-solar-farm-sponsored-harry-reid/

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  77. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    There seem to be a few apologists on KB for the kind of legal insanity your revealing Tom.

    Some of them like Weihana, like to claim that they are just “pragmatists” or some other such shite.

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  78. dirty harry (432 comments) says:

    Nothing like giving National a bit of a slap and a wakey wake..

    http://wp.me/p3Avhv-Mx

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  79. dirty harry (432 comments) says:

    and this will make ya skin crawl…or it should

    http://1law4all.kiwi.nz/news/did-you-know/

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  80. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Nor is it an accident that the worst examples are to do with environmental regulations. The “save this/that species of rare whatever” and the Gaia worshippers are the single most dangerous threat to liberty.

    We need to start exposing the Gareth Morgn’s of NZ for the jackbooted fascist thugs they really are.

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  81. Elaycee (4,305 comments) says:

    Heh….. Given the (regular) use of poor grammar by one of the prolific commenters here, I hope they no longer offer their ‘online teaching’ service… :P

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  82. stephieboy (2,207 comments) says:

    tom hunter (3,975 comments) says:
    April 14th, 2014 at 8:01 am

    Your analysis re Communism vs Libertarianism is only accurate up to a certain point.Tthe the Marxism of the left ( Communism ) and the Right ( that libertarianism in reality is ) are both ideological and utopian views of society that can only be realized with the use of force.
    Certainly the ” gilded age ” showed us the more desirable ways in which a society could develop and progress. But historically it is inaccurate to say that this was driven solely by the ideology and principles of laissez-faire capitalism.
    There actually was quite a bit of state intervention especially at the state level. Illinois comes to mind when Abraham Lincoln as Governor had to issue state bonds to stimulate and encourage the economic development of the state. The best example if the Pacific Railway Act that committed Federal Funding and subsidization of the Trans continental rail road that spearheaded and opened up the development of the country and the west .Lincoln always recognized the state had a role in both regulation and development The Eire Canal development also required a similar process to encourage investment .
    Thus this age was characterized by a mix of both private entrepreneurship and initiative as well as both Federal and State level participation.To see it as exclusively a product of Libertarianism is totally wrong. But the end result was certainly far better overall than Stalin’s Russia..
    Slavery came to an end as a result of the Civil War and Emancipation Act. Yet it was a long , hard road before the black population achieved a reasonable measure of social and economic equality. ( confederate and libertarian attempts at revisionism , notwithstanding. )

    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2012-07-06/how-abraham-lincoln-helped-shape-modern-u-s-economy

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  83. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Stephie, all societies are realised through the use of force.

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  84. stephieboy (2,207 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,691 comments) says:
    April 14th, 2014 at 11:57 am

    Shawn L H ,Jack boot fascist thugs.??
    In what ways precisely. ?
    How is Gareth Morgan and coy intruding on and destroying your personal freedoms.?
    Do you face e.g imprisonment or exile without due process of law.?

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  85. UglyTruth (4,036 comments) says:

    Your cooperation – as subjects, not citizens.

    Citizenship in the civil model comes with strings attached, i.e. the obligations arising from the protection of the state. One of the lessons of the Bundy incident is that it is up to the people to protect themselves from the state. It is for this reason that citizenship implies loss of sovereignty.

    This principle gets misrepresented by groups like 1Law4All, as citizenship is not an essential feature of democracy in the common law tradition. Please note how 1Law4All uses the terms citizens and people as if they were interchangeable:

    http://1law4all.kiwi.nz/frequently-asked-questions/

    FAQ
    What does 1Law4All stand for?

    1Law4All stands for equality in Law and Government for all citizens. We stand for that principle and against any decisions that single out any race or races of New Zealanders for advantage over all other New Zealanders. Our position is based on this cornerstone principle of democracy.
    Why set up 1Law4All?

    We have become a political movement because an increasing number of New Zealanders are concerned that successive New Zealand Governments have been leading our Nation away from the democratic principle that all people are equal in law and Government.

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  86. UglyTruth (4,036 comments) says:

    all societies are realised through the use of force.

    Spoken like a true anarchist.

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  87. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    Dime caught 5 mins of radio live while grabbing lunch.

    apparently what john key said this morning, according to our lesbian friend, was just disgraceful and the height of arrogance..

    what did he say?

    well, when asked about mana and dot com he said “who cares”.

    i gotta be honest – im stoked with that answer. the mana party should be treated with absolute disdain by anyone centre to centre right. they are a blend of racism and communism. they are a disgusting bunch of people.

    and they poll at what? 0.0%? so the PM is supposed to take them seriously?

    of course, if anyone ever mentions ACT! its ok to say things like “nut jobs” “lunatics” “far right with policies that all kiwis hate” etc

    fuck the media, and fuck mau or mua or whatever its name is

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  88. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Stephie

    “In what ways precisely. ?”

    Look at the examples Tom gives. The Green left is not fond of small government and personal liberty.

    “How is Gareth Morgan and coy intruding on and destroying your personal freedoms.?”

    They are not in power at this point. It’s the threat they pose that worries me.

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  89. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “who cares” strikes me as a good response to the Mana/Dotcom silliness.

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  90. leftyliberal (642 comments) says:

    @dime: One presumes that Mana’s poll results aren’t the reason that JK said ‘who cares’, rather the reason was that they’re at the other end of the political spectrum. After all, Mana has polled higher on average than Act has over the last 3 years.

    I’d agree that Act aren’t a bunch of nut jobs and lunatics. However, that doesn’t mean they’re not prone to being ignorant and pandering like any other politician. Certainly the candidate for Epsom seems to be showing this quite clearly given the last letter he distributed in his electorate.

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  91. Left Right and Centre (2,825 comments) says:

    dime – Mau is a stupid fucking lightweight bitch – I heard exactly what you heard too. No-one gives a shit what Mau and Jackson think. You’d have to be a fucking moron to take it seriously.

    At least Willie & JT were a comic duo. Mau is just a joke.

    John Key’s comment represents a lot of the electorate’s thinking perfectly – who cares ? He’s got his finger on the public pulse. And you can’t please everyone anyway. Pretty good record so far – two from two and polling towards three. Couldn’t rule out four yet.

    Dotcom is some weirdo five minute foreigner notorious celebrity now trying his hand at NZ politics. Really ? You’d want that fella as PM of NZ, would ya ? You’d want his political party in power? No – I don’t think so. Is he really interested in having a political turn ? Hmmm….

    And why was I listening to these blowhards on Radiolive ? Because this large farming village is soooo spoiled for quality on the radio, isn’t it ?

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  92. Left Right and Centre (2,825 comments) says:

    I’ve got a Q. What’s the Maori word for a non-white non-Maori person ?

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  93. Elaycee (4,305 comments) says:

    @dime – Well said, Sir!

    Even if there is a buyout / takeover of Mana by the convicted fraudster / embezzler Krim Dotcon, the ‘combined’ constituent base is hardly going to consist of any voters drifting from the centre / centre right, but rather a cannibalised assortment from the existing left and hard left. And the party most likely to lose out will be the Gweens.

    And the first questions to be asked by our MSM should be whether Dotcon will still be living in NZ at the time of the Election and whether Mana has received cash up front from him, or an IOU….

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  94. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    Elaycee – i hope its an IOU! imagine the tanty hone & his mum will throw if they dont get paid!

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  95. tom hunter (4,436 comments) says:

    Those are interesting points Stephieboy and I’ve seen them before – but I draw your attention back to the point I was originally making.

    That point was not that government is not needed (I’m not an anarchist), but that 19th century USA was a reasonable approximation to a Libertarian society – far closer than we are today – and yet produced a “reasonably functional society”.

    Thus this age was characterized by a mix of both private entrepreneurship and initiative as well as both Federal and State level participation

    “Participation” by government in those days meant something very different to what it means nowadays, which is why it occupied only a small percentage of the economy even during the period you’re talking about, Even then it enabled a shitload of crony capitalism and corruption, just as it does today. I’d look into that Transcontinental railroad deal a bit more closely if I was you.

    BTW, your arguments are not helped by howlers like this:

    Illinois comes to mind when Abraham Lincoln as Governor had to issue state bonds…..

    First Mitt Romney as a GOP member of Congress and now this?

    Would it have killed you to spend 10 seconds on Wikipedia:

    Lincoln was a self-educated lawyer in Illinois, a Whig Party leader, state legislator during the 1830s, and a one-term member of the Congress during the 1840s.

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  96. stephieboy (2,207 comments) says:

    Shawn, your views like apparently Tom’s are based more on hysteria and paranoia , not reality.!
    Don’t worry the green’s and Gareth Morgan will not be carting you off to a FEMA or Gulag camp.
    Seriously .!

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  97. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    “Don’t worry the green’s and Gareth Morgan will not be carting you off to a FEMA or Gulag camp.”

    no, they will just destroy you and the country financially. but thats ok, cause then youll be a loser like their followers.

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  98. tom hunter (4,436 comments) says:

    … are based more on hysteria and paranoia

    I’ll bet Skyler’s mum thought exactly the same thing before her encounter with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service!

    As far as paranoia is concerned what do you think Allison Capo and her daughter will think and do if Skyler ever decides to rescue another baby bird? I’d bet the first thought will be, Who’s watching and do they work for the government?, together with furtive attempts to keep the secret: no more open discussions in the Lowes store. Moreover, what will be the effect on all those who saw the CBS story and saw the size of the fine, or even just the presence of an armed officer over such a trivial event?

    That’s right. That’s exactly what was desired.

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  99. Albert_Ross (252 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, you write that

    The “save this/that species of rare whatever” and the Gaia worshippers are the single most dangerous threat to liberty.

    Is it your position that nothing should be done to save rare species, or that rare species can be saved without infringements on personal liberty?

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  100. stephieboy (2,207 comments) says:

    Tom hunter,

    Yes your right about Lincoln. My mistake and he he in fact served on the Illinois state legislature (1834-42) . But it’s my understanding he recognized the need for his State to issue bonds to encourage and ensure its development . This was a similar process to how the New york state legislature initiated the development of the Erie canal in 1817.
    You see governments will always have some role in large scale capitol development like the Transcontinental Railway ,with or without, the presence of crony capitalism. Nor with your deluded Libertarian frame of mind.
    Yes ,I would say Mitt Romney is a lot smarter than me but not smart enough am afraid on 14/11 / 2012 . Like perhaps you ,I will thankfully, never have to face the ignominy of electoral defeat.

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  101. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “Shawn, your views like apparently Tom’s are based more on hysteria and paranoia , not reality.!”

    And yet Tom has provided real world examples, which you have conveniently failed to address. Simply dismissing a view as hysteria is not a valid argument when actual examples of our concerns have been provided.

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  102. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “Is it your position that nothing should be done to save rare species,”

    No.

    “or that rare species can be saved without infringements on personal liberty?”

    Yes.

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  103. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    I should also repeat that I’m not arguing for anarchism/libertarianism, I gave that up for Lent. Not because it’s utopian per se, but because there are pressing issues that need to be dealt with now and overly purist and idealistic politics do not help. I am arguing for much smaller government, far less laws and regulations (not none at all) and clear and properly publicised laws so that the constant moral and legal hazard Tom gives examples of do not occur, or are at least far less likely to.

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  104. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “Finally it should be noted that this society was the one that actually did wipe out slavery, ”

    You forget an entire civil war which no other slave nation went through to end slavery.

    Many states in the North in fact held onto slavery until halfway through the conflict. Lincoln was voted in on the platform of slavery. His own state of Illinois mqde it illegal for a black peson to enter.

    Of huge note was General Sherman’s quote that if that conflict had of been about slavery he would have offered his sword to the South. The huge rorting of the North drove the war to it’s inevitable beginning exactly as Washington wanted to completely own the US.

    And let’s remember, state’s rights which kept states autominous from Washington was taken away by Lincoln who largely designed the Civil War by his own tax regime of the South.

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  105. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “no, they will just destroy you and the country financially….”

    The Reserve Bank, which in fact runs the country, has power now to empty every bank and trust account in the nation.

    Let’s remember J Key told us another Cyprus could happen here. Only a matter of time before the dollar crashes.

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  106. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Where I was born Sherman is not remembered fondly, and for good reason. He was a war criminal.

    The civil war was about a whole range of issues, not just slavery, and the North did not have pure motives.

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  107. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    READER REPORT:I’ll never come back to NZ

    READER REPORT:I’ll never come back to NZ

    Expats: Yet another Kiwi in Perth Relevant offers
    Is it really better across the ditch? Life in Aussie: Is it fair? Aussie job market reality check Across the ditch: I haven’t abandoned NZ Across the ditch we’re second-class citizens Crossing the ditch a ‘no-brainer’ Getting ahead in the GC Across the ditch: Coming up gold Across the ditch: Aussie move a means to an end Across the ditch: Australia or NZ – why choose? Across the ditch: Reverse ditch jumping I moved across to Australia 20 years ago and many times returned to New Zealand for work or family reasons… very much the nomad.

    However, in 1998 I decided that I wanted to return and live in Christchurch permanently.

    Being very well educated and with excellent work qualifications in my particular field I thought nothing of making the move across the ditch.

    What a mistake that was – after spending 6 weeks going to every employment agency and applying for every job on offer I left with a heavy heart and returned to Sydney. Never have I looked back. The worst experience I had was spending over 2 hours at a Christchurch employment agency only to be told that I could probably get a temporary position cleaning rubbish from AMI Stadium after a match for $12 per hour.

    I’m sorry but you can stick that where the sun don’t shine. I would never again live or work in New Zealand, when I returned to Australia I had a job paying $30 per hour within the first three days of getting back and I now have an excellent position paying a lot more than that.

    I will never return to NZ under any circumstances to live or work. Sorry, but there are many stories like mine and you cannot discount them all.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/is-it-really-better-across-the-ditch/9931831/I-ll-never-come-back-to-NZ

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  108. Harriet (4,534 comments) says:

    “…..well, when asked[key] about mana and dot com he said “who cares”……”

    Well I do.

    When Bradford went to Mana I saw it as being dangerous – as it then gave the Greens more credability in the eyes of some of the public.
    With fatboy, Minto ect all being over at Mana it then makes the Greens look MORE enviromental than facist to the public – yet they’re anything but.

    The Greens will now attract the fringe enviromentalists – those who are enviromentalists in the normal scheme of things but who didn’t like the excesses of the Greens. In their eyes the excesses are now over at Mana.

    Originaly the nutters in NZ left Labour for the Greens – which gave Labour credability – now they’ve gone on to Mana from the Greens. Same left toilet as it has always been.

    One or two more party seats to the Greens is rather scary. Their voice is then more legitimate in the eyes of the MSM and the lofos. Fuck that reality.

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  109. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Stephie should also keep in mind, before any accusations of racism are forthcoming, that many Native Americans fought on the side of the South.

    From wiki

    “At the beginning of the war, Albert Pike was appointed as Confederate envoy to Native Americans. In this capacity he negotiated several treaties, one such treaty was the Treaty with Choctaws and Chickasaws conducted in July 1861. The treaty covered sixty-four terms covering many subjects like Choctaw and Chickasaw nation sovereignty, Confederate States of America citizenship possibilities, and an entitled delegate in the House of Representatives of the Confederate States of America.”

    The Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaws, Seminole, Catawba, and Creek Indians all fought on the side of the South.

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  110. stephieboy (2,207 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,698 comments) says:
    April 14th, 2014 at 1:35 pm

    Tom’s “real world examples.”
    What ones exactly.?

    Wiki,
    Sherman.? can you source that quote.?
    I guess the civil war was not fought ( on both sides actually ) for the purest of motives .But shawn and yourself are not seriously suggesting that the Emancipation Act should be repealed and slavery reestablished.?

    Shawn, I think the US has had a sorry history of breaking Treaties with Indians and your seriously a sucker to believe that that would of magically changed with the Confederates, given their track record with their black slaves.

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  111. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    These examples stephie.

    “A judge this week struck down a US government scheme to seize a Tewksbury, Mass., motel because it had become a haven for drug dealers, bolstering concerns about whether US prosecutors in some cases have too much power. The decision in the long-running forfeiture case comes as the US attorney in Boston, Carmen Ortiz, is already under fire for her role in the death of Internet hacker Aaron Swartz, who killed himself on Jan. 11 as he faced a potentially long prison term for what many in the technology field have noted was nothing more than a breach of a contract involving Internet documents.

    and this:

    While at her father’s house near Fredricksburg, Va., on June 13, 11-year old Skylar Capo rescued a baby woodpecker from being eaten by her cat.

    An avid animal-rescuer, Skylar was excited when her mom, Alison, agreed that she could nurse the bird back to health.

    Alison told CBS News, “She was just going to take care of it for a day or two and let it go.”

    On the way home, the family stopped at a Lowe’s store, bringing the bird with them to shield it from the heat in the car.

    Inside the store, a woman confronted them, saying she was from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. What the Capos didn’t know was that, under the Federal Migratory Bird Act, it is a crime to take or transport a woodpecker.

    Skylar said, “I was a little bit upset, because I didn’t want my mom to get in trouble.”

    However, her mother did get in trouble. Two weeks later, the Capos got an unexpected visit from the same officer they met at Lowe’s, accompanied by a Virginia State trooper. Although the Capos released the woodpecker, Alison was issued a $535 citation.”

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  112. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “But shawn and yourself are not seriously suggesting that the Emancipation Act should be repealed and slavery reestablished.?

    Don’t be silly

    “SHawn, I think the US has had a sorry history of breaking Treaties with Indians and your seriously a sucker to believe that that would of magically changed wit the Confederates given their track record with their black slaves.”

    To repeat:

    ““At the beginning of the war, Albert Pike was appointed as Confederate envoy to Native Americans. In this capacity he negotiated several treaties, one such treaty was the Treaty with Choctaws and Chickasaws conducted in July 1861. The treaty covered sixty-four terms covering many subjects like Choctaw and Chickasaw nation sovereignty, Confederate States of America citizenship possibilities, and an entitled delegate in the House of Representatives of the Confederate States of America.”

    Native Americans new exactly what would happen to them if the Federal government could just steam-roll over States rights, and they were not wrong.

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  113. Albert_Ross (252 comments) says:

    “Is it your position that nothing should be done to save rare species,”

    No.

    “or that rare species can be saved without infringements on personal liberty?”

    Yes.

    Could you give some examples then, preferably New Zealand sourced, of actions to save a rare species which are infringing on personal liberty; and suggest alternative non-personal-liberty-infringing actions which would be equally effective at species-saving?

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  114. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    I’m not aware of any in NZ, at this point. But that does not mean the threat from the Greens is any less real. And keep in mind it is the potential threat I’m talking about.

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  115. stephieboy (2,207 comments) says:

    Shawn, again the examples are hardly in the league of gross abuses of state power that was witnessed in Stalin’s Russia where thousands were shot and millions sent off to the Gulags.
    A sense of perspective is required and yes abuses, wherever they occur , need to be challenged. But the US like here ,is far, far , from becoming an Orwellian state as hysterical tea baggers and rightwing nuts might like to suggest.
    I hope Skylar and her family will visit their attorney or the local state ombudsmen’s officer or similar.
    But this hardly a justification nor an infringements of your rights for you to go out and slaughter native and wild animals at will.

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  116. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Well stephie, one brick in the wall leads to another. You can downplay the examples if you want, but there are many, many more, and left wing nuts and hysteria driven Obama supporters have a vested interest in downplaying them.

    “But this hardly a justification nor an infringements of your rights for you to go out and slaughter native and wild animals at will.”

    Where did I say I wanted to do that? You have a bad habit of doing this stephie. It’s a lazy way to make an argument. And who’s being hysterical now?

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  117. Scott Chris (5,896 comments) says:

    When armed EPA agents come on your property to cite you for violating the Clean Water Act

    They’re armed because every other fucker in the States is armed. The problem is the anachronistic Second Amendment not some authoritarian conspiracy.

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  118. Left Right and Centre (2,825 comments) says:

    wikibusi – that story has at least a bit of a whiff to it.

    And what ‘particular field’ was that exactly ? Six weeks ? Well – again – it depends on what type of work it was. Yeah – it might take a long time to get a certain job if the job is so specialised that there’s a small market for it in a city the size of Chch. It’s at the very least an unknown variable.

    Having said that it does look pretty bad, sure. It depends what the profession was – it needs a full context. A call centre manager aint moving to Masterton. (Better be no call centres there or I’m screwed).

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  119. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (790 comments) says:

    “Labour leader David Cunliffe has signed up well-known lawyer Deborah Manning into a senior role in his office.

    Mr Cunliffe has confirmed he has appointed Ms Manning as his deputy chief of staff, working alongside chief of staff Matt McCarten.” – Source: NZ Herald.

    With this appointment John Key’s days are numbered…..

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  120. itstricky (1,580 comments) says:

    and this will make ya skin crawl…or it should

    http://1law4all

    Well your skin should crawl when you think of the reasons that those “privledges” exist, not the fact that they exist. I mean X million more in healthcare is not a “privledge” and it doesn’t exist “for a laugh”. As always 1law4me peddling shallow thinking and us against them mentality in order to achieve their own assimilation plans under the banner of equality.

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  121. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    “They’re armed because every other fucker in the States is armed. ”

    awesome eh!

    ya dont see the local council demanding to enter a texans home to check if they have a smoke alarm! ya know, cause they have a swimming pool and some leftist shit head tacked that on to the regulations

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  122. big bruv (13,331 comments) says:

    ““Labour leader David Cunliffe has signed up well-known lawyer Deborah Manning into a senior role in his office.”

    Is this the same Ahemd Zaoui loving, ultra feminist Deborah Manning?

    I don’t think John Key is going to lose any sleep over that. It looks like the man ban is alive and kicking. Also good to know that Labour are happy to cuddle up to convicted terrorists.

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  123. dirty harry (432 comments) says:

    “With this appointment John Key’s days are numbered…..”

    Yep you be right…probably got another 1500 or so days left still in the hot seat..

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  124. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    :lol:
    the Department of home land security http://www.dhs.gov/
    a republican creates a force that inflicts on freedom.
    And The RWNJ’s
    blame the democrats and start getting upset

    The Tea Party is not a grass-roots public generated movement. The tea party represents the public discourse being manipulated for the benefit of the rich
    sheepie go baa baaa in tune with Fox purveyors of RWNJ propaganda and misdirection
    Fox TV for the terminally stupid and easily manipulated sheepie.

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  125. jcuk (586 comments) says:

    Tom Hunter 11.41
    It is a well established principle of warfare that amassing an overwhelming force save lives that would be lost in a more equal conflict.

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  126. dirty harry (432 comments) says:

    few more facts for ya ikstricky..

    http://1law4all.kiwi.nz/news/parihaka/

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  127. Fletch (6,032 comments) says:

    Unbelievable.

    A photographer and a Wellington toy library are all up in arms because a photo of Prince George taken there was “altered” for the cover of a British magazine. And what exactly was altered? They Photoshopped random letters off a toy puzzle the prince was playing with that identified the toy library. The writing said, “TLFTL – T157″, which identified the toy as being from Wellington’s Tawa-Linden Plunket Toy Library. My response? BIG DEAL. No one would even know what it stood for, and the image looks cleaner without it. Jeepers, when you think of all the Photoshopping that usually goes into a cover image, this is NOTHING.

    But little old NZ has to kick up a fuss about it.

    He said digitally altering a news picture and not saying so in a caption was a serious matter. He would raise it with AFP, the news agency for which he covered the visit last Wednesday of George and the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge to a Plunket coffee group with New Zealand children and their parents at Government House in Wellington.

    “You can crop, adjust levels [of brightness, contrast and colour-correction], but you cannot add or take away anything that’s in the original photograph,” Mr Melville said. “Agencies take a very dim view if clients download their photos and then alter them.”

    Melville couldn’t understand why the inscription had to be removed, saying, “It really didn’t distract from the photo.”

    The British Press Complaints Commission’s editors’ code of practice states, under the heading of “Accuracy”: “The press must take care not to publish inaccurate, misleading or distorted information, including pictures.”

    Comeon, really?
    That’s being a bit precious, New Zealand.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11237679

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  128. Albert_Ross (252 comments) says:

    I’m not aware of any in NZ, at this point. But that does not mean the threat from the Greens is any less real. And keep in mind it is the potential threat I’m talking about.

    OK then, can you give some examples of personal-liberty-infringing things that the Greens threaten to do in order to save rare species and suggest non-personal-liberty-infringing but equally effective ways of saving them?

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  129. Left Right and Centre (2,825 comments) says:

    NZ Police gender ratio – women around 22% of the force. But that percentage ‘needs’ to be increased to ‘represent’ NZ ‘better’.

    Huh ? I thought you picked those you consider the cream of the crop candidates out of all who applied – no matter what bodyparts they have.

    I can’t wait to see ‘tradespeople’ and primary school teachers socially engineered to an even 50/50 split.

    Directors of public entities have been socially engineered to 40% women compared to 12% women directors of private companies. Ask Bob Jones what he thinks of the usefulness of board directors.

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  130. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “The Tea Party is not a grass-roots public generated movement. The tea party represents the public discourse being manipulated for the benefit of the rich”

    Joining Ugly and Reid in the crackpot conspiracy club Griff? :)

    That will make one Nazi, one believer in Nazi UFO’s, and one neo-Pagan Gaia worshipper.

    It’ll be fun times at the club meetings! :)

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  131. MT_Tinman (2,995 comments) says:

    Sir Cullen’s Sidekick (506 comments) says:
    April 14th, 2014 at 2:34 pm
    “Labour leader David Cunliffe has signed up well-known lawyer Deborah Manning into a senior role in his office.

    Mr Cunliffe has confirmed he has appointed Ms Manning as his deputy chief of staff, working alongside chief of staff Matt McCarten.” – Source: NZ Herald.

    With this appointment John Key’s days are numbered…..

    In the thousands?

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  132. stephieboy (2,207 comments) says:

    Shawn, show us in what way the tea party is a grass roots movement. ?

    14/11/ 2012 does not demonstrate that .

    Ok I’ll try and put it more moderately re native animals etc. How do restrictions on their protections affect your rights personally.?

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  133. itstricky (1,580 comments) says:

    few more facts for ya ikstricky..

    Same assimilation BS, different day. Actually 1law4all is very apt as a name. It just smells and screams “resistance is futile! Your jeans dey belong to us. We will maked ya ‘all white and de kiwi wedda you like it or not”

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  134. stephieboy (2,207 comments) says:

    Does the Tea party have widespread popularity. ? Scroll down to # Myth 5 and found out the Truth.,

    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/5-tea-party-myths-debunked-movement-marks-5-years-dysfunction

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  135. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Dribble slowly oozes down the spittle flecked screen as spawn the screen licking moron again reminds us of his unfortunate birth circumstance.
    Complications at birth resulting in oxygen starvation. Fortunately the vets involved have since changed the way they care for pregnant monkeys and increased night-time security to reduce the incidence of inter species procreation.

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  136. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “I will thankfully, never have to face the ignominy of electoral defeat.”

    Are you a political candidate this year Stephie?

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  137. stephieboy (2,207 comments) says:

    wikiri , old son context is always imnportant but given your CT background is often lost on you.
    Read the post am responding to carefully and then my post again.!

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  138. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Gun-toting home invader jailed

    An Auckland man who committed a home invasion and later tried to pull a gun on police has been jailed for almost nine years.

    Alex Tereora, 32, appeared for sentence in the High Court in Auckland today after he pleaded guilty to aggravated robbery, assault with a weapon and attempting to use a firearm against a police officer.

    Justice Geoffrey Venning said Tereora and two unknown accomplices wearing balaclavas and fingerless gloves smashed a lounge window of a Papatoetoe house at 6.30pm on June 3, 2012.

    When the homeowner arrived home he was dragged from his car and tied up, facedown in his lounge.

    He was threatened and asked where the man kept his money and his gold.

    The offenders stole the man’s wallet, cellphone and car keys and left with property valued at about $3500

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9939613/Gun-toting-home-invader-jailed

    This is what this loser told the cops

    A police officer dove into the car and fought with Tereora as he tried to pull a gun from his jacket, saying to police “you’re going to get it, you’re going to get it”.

    ahaha.

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  139. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “Shawn, show us in what way the tea party is a grass roots movement. ”

    Oh please, that’s a daft question. How about the tens of thousands of people who voluntarily turned up to the meetings and protests?

    And seriously, Rightwing watch is about as reliable as Jew watch.

    Koch brother conspiracy theories about the Tea Party are just as dumb as Ugly and Reids 911 nuttery.

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  140. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “wikiri , old son context is always imnportant but given your CT background is often lost on you.”

    I understand context is everything my friend. And the socialists aer trying to un context everything.

    Synthetic drugs are a good example. Outlawing what is legal. Confusion abounds. We are being taken straight down the rabbit hole!

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  141. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Poll: 22 percent of Americans lean libertarian:

    A new poll shows nearly one-quarter of Americans qualify as libertarians or lean toward a libertarian political philosophy.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/10/29/poll-22-percent-of-americans-lean-libertarian/

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  142. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Aussie shares being manipulated

    Market manipulation appears to be rife on the Australian sharemarket when compared to other major markets around the world, according to the country’s leading market researchers.

    The dramatic price spikes which occur just before the markets close at 4pm – the strongest proxy of market manipulation – are being used to boost bonuses for rogue fund managers, the researchers claim.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/9939950/Aussie-shares-being-manipulated

    No such thing as conspiracy……wait a minute……wasn’t our PM a fund manager ???? !!!!!

    Not saying anything but the maths are mounting up.

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  143. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Influence of Koch Industries

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement

    In an August 30, 2010, article in The New Yorker, Jane Mayer said that the billionaire brothers David H. Koch and Charles G. Koch and Koch Industries are providing financial and organizational support to the Tea Party movement through Americans for Prosperity, which David founded.[179][180] The AFP’s “Hot Air Tour” was organized to fight against taxes on carbon use and the activation of a cap and trade program.[181] In 1984, David Koch also founded Citizens for a Sound Economy,[182] part of which became FreedomWorks in a 2004 split, another group that organized and supports the movement.[183] Koch Industries issued a press release stating that the Kochs have “no ties to and have never given money to FreedomWorks”.[184] Former ambassador Christopher Meyer wrote in the Daily Mail that the Tea Party movement is a mix of “grassroots populism, professional conservative politics, and big money”, the last supplied in part by the Kochs.[185] Mayer says that the Koch brothers’ political involvement with the Tea Party has been so secretive that she labels it “covert”.[186]

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  144. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “well, when asked about mana and dot com he said “who cares”. ”

    I agree if th enation believes national is getting NZ ahead. Then who really does care.

    Voices are allowed to be heard in a democracy. So far anyway.

    I can see the country seeing great happening up to the election and even into summer of 2015.

    Then everything will mysteriously tank.

    TPP people.

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  145. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    The Koch brothers support a wide range of libertarian and small government efforts. Big whoop. And George Soros supports a lot of liberal and environmental movements. But that does not mean the Koch’s created the Tea Party, nor does it mean that it does not have genuine grass roots support and in fact the Wikipedia article says exactly that: “grass roots populism.”

    Thanks for proving my point Gaia’s ever faithful devotee. :)

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  146. stephieboy (2,207 comments) says:

    Shawn, you avoid the questions and issues . Is that 22 % represent a populists presidential l election game changer .
    It din’t in 14/11/ 2014.
    Why now.?
    Re my link above , Five T P myths.!

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  147. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    “Voices are allowed to be heard in a democracy. So far anyway.”

    i dont think JK was trying to ban their freedom of speech. hes not helen clarke/ peter dunne etc circa 2008

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  148. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “Shawn, you avoid the questions and issues”

    Hardly, I’m dealing with them head on.

    “Is that 22 % represent a populists presidential l election game changer .
    It din’t in 14/11/ 2014.
    Why now.?

    Wow, talk about avoidence. Your changing your story. First it’s not a grass roots movement. Now it is, but not supposedly large enough to be a game changer.

    Which story are you going with?

    “Re my link above , Five T P myths.!”

    Like I said, I take Right Wing Watch as seriously as Jew Watch. I post an actual poll disproving your contention. You give me a far Left blog. :)

    Try to stick to reality stephie. Your good on that with foreign policy. You can do the same with domestic US policy.

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  149. tom hunter (4,436 comments) says:

    A sense of perspective is required and yes abuses, wherever they occur , need to be challenged.

    But clearly that woman from the USFAW did not have a sense of perspective. Far worse is that everything she did was by the book and legal. So the Capo’s have no comeback at all.

    One might argue that the CBS story would act as a counter-failing force, but it was not blown up into anything by the rest of the MSM. The official never had her name published, despite the fact that she probably identified herself to the Capo’s on the second occasion, therefore there will be no public naming and shaming. No midnight reporters vigils on her front door. No brutal TV interviews where she’s asked why she acted like an unthinking, unfeeling thug.

    Nothing. Therefore nothing will change. That’s a message too.

    It is a well established principle of warfare that amassing an overwhelming force save lives that would be lost in a more equal conflict.

    Well if the American police regard themselves as being at war with American citizens and that the saving of police lives is paramount in that war then I guess you’d be correct.

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  150. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    ……
    Dribble slowly oozes down the spittle flecked screen….
    ..
    You are the Schizophrenic nutwhack complete with a propensity to worship imagined Gods .

    This shows frequently in your dribbles of supernatural delusion

    Talking to Jesus is a sign of mental delusions spawn .

    Trot of to the head shrink and get your anti screen licking meds increased

    . Your present regime is obviously not effective at stopping the voices in your head,

    Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/) is a mental disorder characterized by a breakdown in thinking and poor emotional responses.[1] Common symptoms include delusions, such as paranoia; hearing voices or noises that are not there; disorganized thinking; a lack of emotion and a lack of motivation. Schizophrenia causes significant social and work problems. Symptoms begin typically in young adulthood and about 0.3–0.7% of people are affected during their lifetime.[2] Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the person’s reported experiences.

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  151. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “complete with a propensity to worship imagined Gods”

    You mean, like Gaia?

    Pretending your not religious and then trotting out the Gaia crap is seriously delusional Griff.

    This is called lying to yourself. Not a good sign of mental health. Kinda like talking about yourself in the third person and hiding behind a false personality.

    Does “Griff” tell you what to type?

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  152. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (790 comments) says:

    “Les Mills gym boss Phillip Mills has donated a total of $125,000 to Labour and the Green Party in recent weeks.

    Recent filings on the Electoral Commission website show Mr Mills donated $14,999 to Labour in early December, followed by a further $50,000 early this month.

    He also donated $60,000 to Green Party on April 11.”

    Another loser throwing money around to prop up losers……

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  153. Ed Snack (1,740 comments) says:

    Griff, your meds need adjusting, again. And stop posting self diagnoses on GD.

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  154. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    If you talk to God you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.

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  155. Fletch (6,032 comments) says:

    Influence of Koch Industries

    Everyone pisses on about the Koch brothers and their donations, but it’s funny how there are 22 progressive groups who donated more to the Democrats than the Kochs ever did to the Republicans.

    Below is a list from Open Secrets of the campaign contributions of various groups. Try to find the infamous “Koch Brothers”

    [image of donations list]

    If you noticed there are no less than 22 groups that donated more to the Democratic Party than the Koch Brothers donated to the Republican Party – congratulations! You have basic math, reading and comprehension skills.
    For extra credit, take note that DNC “Uber Donors” gave $485,652,385 more to the Democrat Party for their progressive causes than all RNC “Uber donors” combined.

    http://www.ijreview.com/2014/04/126316-whenever-democrat-complains-koch-brothers-show-chart-progressive-donations/

    The Koch thing is a made-up narrative.

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  156. Fletch (6,032 comments) says:

    -ps, Obama probably shouldn’t even be president.
    There has been found to be MASSIVE voter fraud in Florida and other states (just as people said at the time). More than 35,000 with the same first and last names and date-of-birth voted in two states.

    The North Carolina State Board of Elections has found thousands of instances of voter fraud in the state, thanks to a 28-state crosscheck of voter rolls. Initial findings suggest widespread election fraud.

    765 voters with an exact match of first and last name, DOB and last four digits of SSN were registered in N.C. and another state and voted in N.C. and the other state in the 2012 general election.

    35,750 voters with the same first and last name and DOB were registered in N.C. and another state and voted in both states in the 2012 general election.

    155,692 voters with the same first and last name, DOB and last four digits of SSN were registered in N.C. and another state – and the latest date of registration or voter activity did not take place within N.C.

    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/04/02/massive-voter-fraud-discovered-in-north-carolinas-2012-election/

    That’s the liberal way. And yet, Obama just yesterday saying that voter I.D was racist. Of course he’d say that. He wants to be able to keep on cheating.

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  157. Grant (427 comments) says:

    @ Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

    Heard that on ZB news at 4.00 pm and was seriously wondering why it was even considered newsworthy. All was made clear however, when the news reader announced that the donations were made because Mills wanted a change of government.

    Keep up, (with our lefty drivel), on Newstalk ZB.

    G
    Edit – typo

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  158. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “If you talk to God you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.”

    Not really Mike.

    What are called word’s of prophecy and words of knowledge are fairly common in Christian charismatic circles. It’s one of the ways we know God is real.

    Schizophrenia requires a whole lot of symptoms that are very specific. Both my wife and I trained as volunteer counsellors and Gestalt psychotherapists in the 90′s. I know the difference between genuine religious experience and schizophrenia.

    Griff is just a sad and rather pathetic bully hiding behind a computer. Personal abuse is what he dishes out to almost everyone he disagrees with.

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  159. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    I’d suspend judgement on that until any actual cases of voter fraud are prosecuted, Fletch. Extensive searches in the past have pretty much turned up nothing. It’s a classic example of a moral panic.

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  160. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Shawn
    So one of the ways you know God is real is the voices in your head?

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  161. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    There are no voices in my head Mike. It does not work like that. And please, stop with the amateur psychology. It’s a pathetic way to debate issues.

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  162. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    If it’s not voices in your head (I’ll take your word on that), how do the ‘words of prophecy and words of knowledge’ manifest themselves? Genuinely curious here.

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  163. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Mike,

    It comes as a powerful, almost overwhelming sense of Presence, so strong it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and my skin feel likes its almost electric, followed by a very clear vision, usually of another person in some kind of distress or need, and a strong inner sense of being told to go and help in some specific way. Sometimes, very rarely, it’s about my own life, but most of the time it’s about other people who need help.

    And they are always accurate.

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  164. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    I get the same feeling when I’m thinking about going to see the All Blacks.

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  165. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    So not genuinely interested then. Kinda thought so.

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  166. tom hunter (4,436 comments) says:

    The Koch Brothers? Again?

    This is actually my favourite Koch Brothers political contribution, which I posted a few days ago: Chuck Schumer: I was for the Koch Brothers before I was against them:

    Here’s a couple of quotes from the office of Chuck Schumer (Democrat): lovely stationary by the way:

    “Thank you so much for the generous KOCHPAC contribution to my 2010 campaign….”

    “Your early financial help keeps me strong in my campaign.”

    “Again, I can’t thank you enough….I look forward to working with you throughout this election.”

    Ungrateful bastard. Nobody stays bought these days! Did I mention he’s the senior Democrat senator from New York?

    If the Koch’s wanted to have some fun they’d just mail a cheque for $10,000 to every Democrat senator and member of Congress and publicly announce it. I guess they have principals though.

    Still, as far a “Dirty” Harry Reid and the rest of the Dems are concerned nothing matters except beating the bushes for Low Information Voters to get to the booths in November this year. If that requires talking about the Koch Brothers 24/7 that’s what they’ll do.

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  167. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (790 comments) says:

    Bloody Les Mills – I hope National supporters boycott his gyms around NZ and instead of change of government this loser goes out of business….

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  168. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    It comes as a powerful, almost overwhelming sense of Presence, so strong it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and my skin feel likes its

    spawn isnt mad he just has delusions of talking to imaginary beings :lol:

    I realise you think the world shares your pathetic delusions spawn.The rest of us do not share in you fantasy words of supernatural beings and magic telepathic communications…

    By the way as has been pointed out fucknut .Gaia is a name that describes our ecosphere using a literary personalization, This doesn’t mean I share your pathetic delusion of the existence of the supernatural world and attempts to communicate with an imaginery being.

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  169. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    It comes as a powerful, almost overwhelming sense of Presence, so strong it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and my skin feel likes its almost electric, followed by a very clear vision, usually of another person in some kind of distress or need, and a strong inner sense of being told to go and help in some specific way. Sometimes, very rarely, it’s about my own life, but most of the time it’s about other people who need help.

    And they are always accurate.

    What will you do with your million dollars? http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

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  170. All_on_Red (1,394 comments) says:

    Griff
    Your nastiness reminds me of an old Scottish saying ” many a man broke his nose with his mouth”.
    You really have anger issues you need to attend to.

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  171. Elaycee (4,305 comments) says:

    It comes as a powerful, almost overwhelming sense of Presence, so strong it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and my skin feel likes its almost electric, followed by a very clear vision…

    Has your ‘very clear vision’ been able to convey the message that you’ve become a weapons grade pest?

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  172. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Les Mills can take a hike, that hopefully being the attitudes of companies shouting staff membership as part of salary deals. Anyone in business who can even contemplate helping the leeching left-wing envious bastards (Labour/Greens), should end up like David Parker . . . flat broke.

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  173. Nostradamus (2,949 comments) says:

    Has your ‘very clear vision’ been able to convey the message that you’ve become a weapons grade pest?

    Thread analysis

    - Total number of ShawnLH’s comments – 36 (after accounting for two direct references to ShawnLH by other commenters)
    - Total number of comments – 172
    - Proportion: 20.93%

    So just over one out of every five comments on this thread since dawn, and probably until dusk, comes from *drum roll* ShawnLH!

    That’s not a bad effort from someone who told us: “My physio is insistent I don’t start work until my arm is fully healed”! :)

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  174. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “I realise you think the world shares your pathetic delusions spawn.”

    Millions do “Griff”

    “The rest of us do not share in you fantasy words of supernatural beings and magic telepathic communications”

    The number of Christians in the world is in the millions. The tiny number atheists is insignificant by comparison.

    “By the way as has been pointed out fucknut .Gaia is a name that describes our ecosphere using a literary personalization, This doesn’t mean I share your pathetic delusion of the existence of the supernatural world and attempts to communicate with an imaginery being.”

    Translation: Blah blah, childish abuse, blah blah I have a deity it’s just not a deity.

    Your deluding yourself Griff. You have a “god” your just to terrified to admit it to yourself.

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  175. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “Your nastiness reminds me of an old Scottish saying ” many a man broke his nose with his mouth”.
    You really have anger issues you need to attend to.”

    To put it mildly. Griff clearly has very serious anger issues he’s not dealing with, and spends his days projecting them onto others on this blog. Definitely in need of help and professional counselling. And he’s not the only one. Some people here are so terrified of anything other than their myopic little world view that they have to lash out in anger. Sad. Also kinda pathetic, but mostly just sad.

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  176. wreck1080 (3,735 comments) says:

    govt says house prices in auck should be 4x median income, but it is running at nearly 8x.

    The issue I have with the governments statements, is that auckland hosue prices are more a function of the incomes of chinese millionaires than kiwis.

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  177. mandk (824 comments) says:

    Time to pull the plug on Greenpeace’s charitable status: they’re overtly political

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11238066

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  178. mandk (824 comments) says:

    @wreck1080

    Can you substantiate anything in your post?

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  179. dirty harry (432 comments) says:

    Pity Katie Bradford sounds like her mother on tv…the little hottie absolutely kills the poor old english language.

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  180. Viking2 (11,147 comments) says:

    Finance Minister Bill English has backed workers’ expectations of a pay rise after years of belt tightening, but not all businesses are sure the time is right.

    English said yesterday that patient workers should be rewarded for their efforts as the economy picks up a gear.

    ======================
    Nick Smith says has told Government to target housing affordability at four times income, down from seven times income in Auckland now

    The REINZ Median House price for Auckland was a record high NZ$637,000 in March, implying an household income of about NZ$91,000 if the multiple was seven as stated by the Minister.

    Meanwhile, Labour Leader David Cunliffe reiterated in a Q+A interview that Labour planned to impose a 15% capital gains tax on investment property and to ban non-residents from buying New Zealand homes. He also said Labour would repeal National’s plan for reviewable tenancies for State Houses, which starts on July 1. He reiterated Labour’s Kiwibuild plan to build 100,000 affordable homes over 10 years.

    http://www.interest.co.nz/property/69450/nick-smith-says-has-told-government-target-housing-affordability-four-times-income-do

    Meanwhile;
    Westpac chief economist says it’s impossible to tell what is really going on with house prices

    But the situation with house prices is more opaque,” he said.

    He pointed to latest Real Estate Institute figures showing a “massive” increase in its stratified House Price Index, with prices showing as now up 9.2% from a year ago, compared with just 8.2% up a month ago.

    But “in stark contrast”, Quotable Value’s Monthly Property Value Index fell in the month of March, and was up only 0.1% over the first three months of 2014, he said.

    “As far as we can tell, neither index is telling the full story.”
    =====================
    Outside of Auckland, house prices are declining.
    House price deflation in most provincial areas. As they are not receiving immigrants, no wage growth, lack of regional development. Similar to the 1980s really.
    So all the non-Aucklanders can pay higher interest rates because of Remuera and Herne Bay house prices?

    ===========================

    So the national socialists are going to pay more wages (and thus create more inflation and we know the Gov. is just waiting to pounce on that to give the Banks a nudge into charging you higher interest rates.
    The Left socialists are going to tax the crap out of property investors (i.e. longterm property owners who rarely sell) forgetting that property traders are already taxed.

    No one has a fucking clue as to what really happens, the collection of facts and statistics is unreliable, is not properly based and so we have this bunch of loons from Govt, RBNZ et al making entirely emotional and irrational; decisions on the housing market based on various news reported opinions of property market and housing commentators.

    Meanwhile at the coal face.

    Rents for 3 bedroom houses in Auckland were up to $550/week in March, a level reached on two previous, earlier months. Demand was up by 25% compared with March a year ago. Wellington demand for 3 bedroom house rental was up 7%, but the really big increase in demand was in Christchurch where demand was up 44% in a year.
    ( All of which is great) “lol”

    http://www.interest.co.nz/news/69456/review-things-you-need-know-you-go-home-monday-rental-demand-rises-faster-rents-coffee-pr
    How appalling.

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  181. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The rest of the world includes hundreds of millions of uneducated ignorant innocents.
    In New Zealand supernatural beliefs are declining at a rate that implies Godwhackings extinction within fifty years. Innocent and ignorent from less educated society immigrating are delaying that final collapse of faith by only years

    I have no god or any faith in the supernatural!!!! This has been so since I was old enough to rationally explore the concept
    That you repeatedly say otherwise is a result of your own delusion not mine. Projecting your sickness on others is yet more signs of your delusional insanity

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  182. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    You really should deal with that anger “Griff.” It can lead to nasty things like heart attacks.

    And you do have a god Griff. It’s just one of your self-delusions that you think you don’t. And given the level of personal abuse you spew on this blog on a daily basis, I really don’t think your in a position to be talking about reason or mental health.

    Seriously, get help. There must be an anger management course somewhere near you.

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  183. kowtow (7,656 comments) says:

    griff

    It must be a great relief to you and your mental health providers that you have the ability to constantly express your delusions ,be they anti religion or those incessant warmist rants, to the world through KB.

    Probably saves us taxpayers a few bob as you don’t need admitting as often as might be if you couldn’t sound off……..

    …….fuckin’ whack head.

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  184. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    And you do have a god Griff……..Does that make you feel normal Spawn ?
    :lol:
    Your telepathy about others mind state is yet another delusion.

    little wee wingnuts don’t like nasty Griff kicking their poor little deluded egos around :lol:
    cognitive dissonance does that damage to your egos not griff you retarded screenlickers.

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  185. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    griffith
    It makes some people happier if they delude themselves that even those with no religion actually do believe in god. I guess if you believe in the big sky fairy you are capable of projecting those beliefs on to others as well.

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  186. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Oh I’m fine about your delusion that your “kicking me around” Griff. Bothers me not at all. I can take it, because sad little angry bullies like you are no threat to my ego.

    But I’m serious about you getting help. You are clearly not OK Griff. Your post above is evidence of that.

    You can find counsellors and anger management courses in the phone book.

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  187. Tictactoe (32 comments) says:

    ShawnLH,

    It’s kinda the height of arrogance to presume that your god is everyone’s god. The way you’ve just expressed yourself about your religious beliefs makes it seem like, to the casual observer on here, that the only way you can feel confident about your faith is to assert that everyone believes in your god and your particular brand of Christianity (that is, assuming you’re a Christian.)

    Which god(s) are we even talking about? Shiva? Buddha? Zeus? The Judeo God? Who’s the one real true god? Or is it none of them?

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  188. ex-golfer (146 comments) says:

    Nice try at an anonymous hit job on Whale over on The Stranded.
    So anonymous that everyone knows its written at the hands of Greg Presland.
    Matt Blomfields deeds caught up with him and someone shot him in the head over the weekend: http://www.3news.co.nz/Police-called-to-home-of-former-Hell-Pizza-franchisee/tabid/423/articleID/340063/Default.aspx
    Of course Greggy trys to imply a connection with the Whales current defamation case with Blomfeld.
    The story says Blomfield himself confirmed his hospitalisation – so why didn’t the reporter bother to ask him who the person he was fighting with and subsequently shot by was?

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  189. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “It makes some people happier if they delude themselves that even those with no religion actually do believe in god.”

    I never said he believed in God Mike, I said he believed in a god. And the atheist myth that some people have no sense of the divine is just pseudo-intellectual self-delusion. Everyone does, and they know it deep down inside. But suppressing that awareness takes a great deal of effort and energy, which is why so many atheists are such angry people, and spend so much time on blogs and forums desperately trying to convince others and reacting with rage when anyone who does not engage in that self-delusion turns up.

    Not a healthy way to live.

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  190. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Perhaps your partner could help out with Shawn, griffith: he clearly needs help with his delusions.
    And no Shawn, there is no god – that’s just straightforward rationality in play. Humans may be predisposed to some belief systems, there’s some interesting work on the genetic basis for that. Doesn’t make god real though.

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  191. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    To far gone mike
    To bring him back down to reality enough to counsel effectively would take that much meds he would be a dribbling vegetable. A Screen licker is what he is and always will be

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  192. SGA (817 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 6:51 pm

    And the atheist myth that some people have no sense of the divine is just pseudo-intellectual self-delusion.

    You say this to convince yourself. Somewhere in the back of your mind you know that your religious beliefs are untenable, so you spend vast amounts of time desperately trying to convince others in the hopes of having your delusions confirmed. And if you get a lot of opposition, then you take that as confirmation of your delusions as well.

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  193. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    Religion is like the male nipple……it has survived years of human evolution despite having no useful purpose.

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  194. SGA (817 comments) says:

    nasska at 7:09 pm

    Religion is like the male nipple……it has survived years of human evolution despite having no useful purpose.

    http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/advice/men-nipples-sensitive
    Really nasska, you need to get out more.

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  195. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “And no Shawn, there is no god – that’s just straightforward rationality in play.”

    Not at all Mike. Reason has nothing to do with atheist self-delusions. You can pretend to yourself that is the case, tell yourself every day how rational you are, it does not alter the truth one iota.

    No truly rational person can look at DNA coding and come to any other rational conclusion than that it was designed.

    Those who do so are not rational, they are blinded by their self-chosen and delusional ideology.

    And look at who your defending. An angry, hateful little bully who has spent years and years spewing hate on this blog alone. What a pathetic waste of a life.

    Hardly an advertisement for the benefits of atheism, or for mental health, let alone decency and moral character.

    But then the Godless have no rational or objective basis for decency or moral behaviour, not if everything is just an accident.

    Hardly surprising then that so many atheist regimes have been failed mass murdering horrors, and hardly surprising that Griff’s notion of “reason” has created such an angry and hateful bully.

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  196. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    It always makes me laugh when the deluded Christians get upset with atheists pushing reality.
    FFS you wankers have managed to force your bullshit onto man for two thousand years. Atheists start pushing back and we are the ones in the wrong.

    Lets do things the good old christian way .

    Destroy all christian books then burn the godwhacked. !!!!

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  197. Judith (7,695 comments) says:

    @ nasska (9,446 comments) says:
    April 14th, 2014 at 7:09 pm

    Ahh but it does have a use, the male breast has mammary glands and can produce breast milk

    - so, there really was no need for Mr Cunnliffe to buy his house in Herne Bay (or wherever it was) – he could have taken over breastfeeding duties!! ;-)

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  198. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    Yeah….okay SGA. I’ll concede that there’s bundle of nerves doing their thing in male nipples.

    I was more thinking of tit feeding which I dodged like a champion on the basis of zilch milk production. :)

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  199. SGA (817 comments) says:

    @nasska at 7:21 pm
    I know you were, just kidding around.

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  200. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    ….”the male breast has mammary glands and can produce breast milk “….

    Thankfully that allegation was made after our breeding days Judith. :)

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  201. Fletch (6,032 comments) says:

    Gawd, these reporters on TV have such awful accents, especially the female ones.
    Don’t they teach them to enunciate properly in journalism school?

    They need elocution lessons.

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  202. doggone7 (705 comments) says:

    Another day of anger and bitterness – it’s not great mate. Maybe a membership will help relieve some of the tension, frustration and fury. Wonder if Les Mills would oblige?

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  203. OneTrack (2,624 comments) says:

    wreck – “The issue I have with the governments statements, is that auckland hosue prices are more a function of the incomes of chinese millionaires than kiwis.”

    All those chinese millionaires buying up all the properties for sale in … Henderson, South Auckland, Glenfield…. Oh. Wait.

    But, of course, first home buyers, circa 2014, dont want to live “there”. They only want to live in Herne Bay or Grey Lynn, so they can stroll down to Ponsonby Road to sip their latte’s at the cafes on Saturday morning.

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  204. Judith (7,695 comments) says:

    @ nasska (9,448 comments) says:
    April 14th, 2014 at 7:24 pm

    I am happy to say I’ve never seen a man breastfeed, and I hope I never do… somehow it just seems a little bit ‘creepy’, however, I’m sure someone who believes in creation will tell us why God designed the male to have this ability?

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  205. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    They’re like the appendix and fossils, Judith: put there by god to puzzle us…

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  206. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “It always makes me laugh when the deluded Christians get upset with atheists pushing reality.”

    Your not pushing reality Griff, just your version of it, and one that does look terribly useful for living a good life.

    “Atheists start pushing back and we are the ones in the wrong.”

    Pushing back would mean having a civil debate. Your version of “pushing back” is to spew personal abuse at people. Which is why we are at this point. From day one you never tried to seriously debate with me, you just indulged in name calling and insults.

    So I pushed back, and you throw a tantrum. PATHETIC. If you can’t take it Griff, don’t push it.

    As for burning. your welcome to try. But I suspect that like most bullies your full of shit and hot air. Very brave behind a computer screen, but a gutless coward when it comes to the crunch.

    Seriously, I was not trying to insult you when I said you need help. You really do. Your anger issues are blindingly obvious to most people here.

    Get help Griff. And for God’s sake, grow up. Nobody is ever going to be convinced by anything you say if all you do is spew abuse.

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  207. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    Last night I was sitting on the sofa watching TV when I
    heard my wife’s voice from the kitchen.
    “What would you like for dinner, sweetheart?
    Chicken, beef or lamb?”

    I said, “Why thank you, I’ll have chicken!”

    She replied, “You’re having soup Dear.
    I was talking to the cat.”

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  208. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    Shawn

    Have you thought about having a chat to Huey to see if you are eligible for any upcoming miracles that might see you able to get back to work. I’m not sure whether wankers’ wrist or tossers’ elbow are covered but it wouldn’t hurt to ask.

    It’s just that we’ve got queues of other lunatics lining up, waiting for room on GD, to tell us about their imaginary friends & how the medication helped. :)

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  209. Harriet (4,534 comments) says:

    “…….It’s just that we’ve got queues of other lunatics lining up, waiting for room on GD, to tell us about their imaginary friends & how the medication helped……”

    O miserable man, what a deformed monster has sin made you! God made you “little lower than the angels”; sin has made you little better than the devils. :cool:

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  210. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Full moon tomorrow, nasska.

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  211. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    Then Mike, we are doomed. :)

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  212. SGA (817 comments) says:

    mikenmild at 8:23 pm

    Full moon tomorrow, nasska.

    Damn, forgot to order the goat …. again.
    Guess it’s a cockerel again, but it’s just not the same.

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  213. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    Put it this way Harriet….a good friend of my grandmother was a devout Christian & believed that when she died she would go to Heaven to be with God.

    She also thought that there were little people inside her radio. :)

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  214. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    Have you tried sheep SGA? :)

    (I just thought I’d put a plug in for us sheep & beef farmers)

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  215. SGA (817 comments) says:

    nasska at 8:31 pm

    Have you tried sheep SGA? :)

    My luck it would one of Johnboy’s and who knows how that would stuff up the ritual. The devil is in the detail, don’t you know.

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  216. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    I’m anticipating that tomorrow night’s GD will be especially lively. Probably an eclectic mix of trutherism, UFOlogy, global warming and creationism.

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  217. Judith (7,695 comments) says:

    Talking about Full Moons and such,

    There is meant to be a great display in the sky on 23-24 as the good lord puts on his own fireworks display, in the form of meteor showers that will be quite phenomenal – apparently. I just hope he doesn’t stuff up and also make it a cloudy drizzly night. :-)

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  218. Judith (7,695 comments) says:

    @ mikenmild (8,666 comments) says:
    April 14th, 2014 at 8:35 pm

    Please can we have abortion, suicide and euthanasia, together with feminism, and the value of witchcraft – as well? Just this once it would be nice to have a decent variety – oh yeah, and there is the moon landings to (or were they?)

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  219. wat dabney (3,689 comments) says:

    No truly rational person can look at DNA coding and come to any other rational conclusion than that it was designed.

    Frankly I suspect Zeus was drunk when he designed DNA.

    ‘The RARE List is comprised of approximately 7,000 different rare diseases and disorders affecting more than 300 million people worldwide.’

    http://globalgenes.org/rarelist/

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  220. Tauhei Notts (1,613 comments) says:

    I find the ever decreasing knowledge of Christianity a bit sad.
    This Friday I join a likeable bunch of bastards to play golf. We call the trophy, to be played on Friday 18th, the Pharisees’ Cup. So few players know the significance of the name.
    They cannot comprehend that it is all a piss take.

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  221. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Don’t mention the moon landings – you’ll have Ugly along banging on about parallax again.

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  222. Judith (7,695 comments) says:

    @ mikenmild (8,667 comments) says:
    April 14th, 2014 at 8:45 pm

    Well, I’m not sure about parallax, but my suspicions are that ‘Ever Ready’ batteries had some thing to do with it. I remember everyone walking around for days with transistor radios stuck to their ears, waiting for the big event. We were even allowed to take them to school… and boy did those things chew through the batteries.

    The reason why they’ve never proved it before, is that no one has bothered to explore the obvious! ;-)

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  223. wat dabney (3,689 comments) says:

    ShawnLH,

    You really should visit that site and read the personal stories of people – many of them just children – afflicted with terrible genetic disorders.

    - My Daddy: His Life with Myelodysplasia Syndrome

    - Baby Nora Battles Dandy-Walker Malformation

    - Girl, Three, Diagnosed With Coat’s Disease After Facebook Photo Shared

    - My Daddy: His Life with Myelodysplasia Syndrome

    - Alice’s Unbreakable Spirit with Osteogenesis Imperfecta

    - 22-Year-Old Natalia Diagnosed with Polymyositis

    http://globalgenes.org/rarelist/

    What does this tell a ‘truly rational person’ about the magic pixies who “designed” DNA?

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  224. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    At last the truth can be told: :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xsvuytj0ire7y25/Easter%201.jpg

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  225. RF (1,272 comments) says:

    Just watching Native affairs. What a left wing cess pit. The presenter is a real thicko.

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  226. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    He’ll be relating to his audience then, won’t he?

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  227. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Wat,

    it says much about your “reason” that you use terms like “magic pixies.”

    If you cannot even debate the issues honestly why should I give you any answers? Pretending to engage in a debate when your just trolling is not rational, it’s just the childishness of the average atheist on this blog.

    If your interested in answers the answers are there. Find them yourself. But your not looking for answers, like naaska your just indulging in public masturbation.

    Jerk off to someone else.

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  228. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    What’s dishonest about magic pixies? Oh, that’s right, they’re mythological – just like gods.

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  229. big bruv (13,331 comments) says:

    “If your interested in answers the answers are there.”

    Nothing like debating an issue with one who has an open mind. The answers are not there, they never have been. What you believe and demand that the rest of us believe is nothing more than stone aged superstition, it is superstition that cannot stand up to modern science.

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  230. big bruv (13,331 comments) says:

    “Both my wife and I trained as volunteer counsellors and Gestalt psychotherapists in the 90′s. I know the difference between genuine religious experience and schizophrenia.”

    That statement Shawn can be nothing other than an outright lie.

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  231. stigie (916 comments) says:

    “I’m anticipating that tomorrow night’s GD will be especially lively. Probably an eclectic mix of trutherism, UFOlogy, global warming and creationism.”

    AND SEX !

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  232. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Don’t mention the moon landings –

    Moon Landing! – all 100+ minutes.

    http://www.firstmenonthemoon.com/

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  233. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Lots of sex; some of it heterosexual too.

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  234. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    Speaking of reason.

    The Failure of Atheism to Account for Rationality.

    “As a worldview, atheism is intellectually bankrupt and is wrought with philosophical problems. Let’s look at the inability for the atheistic worldview to account for rationality.

    Now, I’ve already done a lot on this topic on the carm website and in videos. So I’m not going to get into this very deeply here. However, I can summarize by saying that atheism cannot account for rationality. You see, logic is based upon universal truth statements which we call the laws of logic. Such laws are, for example, the law of identity, the law of non-contradiction, and the law of excluded middle. These universal truth statements are what rational arguments are based upon. If these additional laws changed depending upon the situation, location, time, or an individual’s personal preferences, then there is no basis for rationality; and truth could not be known. Truth would then depend upon situations and personal opinions. If that were the case, then I could say that blue sleeps faster than Wednesday, and whatever I say is always true because I claim it.

    But, this is not rational, and you and I both know that isn’t.

    In the Christian worldview, the universal truth statements are derived from God. These universal truth statements–these laws of identity–are conceptual by nature. Why? Because they are statements. Statements require minds; and since logic is the process of the mind, the logical foundations upon which rationality depends are of the mind and are conceptual by nature. If the atheist were to say that logical processes are not of the mind or that the truth statements which are the foundations of logic are not of the mind, then he is being irrational. After all, truth is a statement which agrees with reality. And because truth is constructed in statements, a mind is required for such statements to be made.

    Let me clarify. If a rock is all that exists in the universe, it is true that a rock is the only thing that exists. But saying that it is the only thing that exists is a statement which requires a mind. If there are no minds and the rock is all that exists, no statements can be made about the rock. It would not be known that it was the only thing existing. But truth statements are known. Therefore, all such truth statements require minds; and the universal, logical absolutes, truth statements that form the basis of rational thought require a mind to be made and known.

    Atheism has no way of accounting for these universal truth statements. Atheists can try and state that the laws of logic are based upon human minds, but this cannot be because human minds are different and contradict each other as well as themselves. Since logical absolutes are universally true, they cannot be the product of human minds because human minds are limited, are not universally true, and often contradict each other. If the atheist wants to say that the logical absolutes are merely descriptions of behavior of the universe, then how would an atheist by observation determine the third law of logic, the law of excluded middle, which says that statements are either true or false? He couldn’t. If the atheist wants to say that logical absolutes are the result of chemical processes in the brain, that can’t work because it would mean that logic could be altered by brain chemistry. Some atheists say that logic is a product of human language, but that doesn’t work because languages are subjective and culturally variable where logic is not. If the atheist says that logic is a property of the universe like motion and gravity, the problem here is that you cannot measure the laws of logic where such things like weight, mass, heat, and cold can be measured.

    So, atheists repeatedly try to respond to the issue of trying to account for rationality founded in universal truth statements also known as logical absolutes. But in all their trying and all their attempted logical outcry, they fail. Why? Because atheism doesn’t have the substance to account for rationality. It is deficient as a worldview.

    But, Christianity comes to the rescue and states that the universal truth statements reflect the universal mind. We, as God’s creation, are able to recognize them because we are made in God’s image. Where Christianity provides an answer to this important issue, atheism clearly fails to deliver.”

    http://carm.org/failure-atheism-account-rationality

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  235. Nostalgia-NZ (4,918 comments) says:

    Anybody got any ideas about turning this into a political blog, silly idea I know.

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  236. jcuk (586 comments) says:

    Sorry Nostalgia I put a negative tick when I meant a positive :(
    Bring back DPF from his tramping masochism …..

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  237. stigie (916 comments) says:

    “Lots of sex; some of it heterosexual too.”

    Nope, it will be 100% gay sex !~

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  238. OneTrack (2,624 comments) says:

    mike – “Full moon tomorrow, nasska”

    Lunar eclipse tomorrow too (total eclipse in Australia).

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  239. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “That statement Shawn can be nothing other than an outright lie.”

    No BB, it’s not. Sad to burst your bubble of prejudice.

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  240. ShawnLH (3,553 comments) says:

    “What you believe and demand that the rest of us believe”

    I’m not. I’m simply challenging the atheists to engage in real, serious, and civil debate. So far they are unwilling.

    Gee, I wonder why?

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  241. RichardX (321 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,722 comments) says:
    April 14th, 2014 at 9:55 pm
    Let me clarify. If a rock is all that exists in the universe, it is true that a rock is the only thing that exists. But saying that it is the only thing that exists is a statement which requires a mind. If there are no minds and the rock is all that exists, no statements can be made about the rock. It would not be known that it was the only thing existing.

    If you construct a hypothetical world in which a rock is all that exists, then by definition a rock is all that exists in this hypothetical world. If this hypothetical world were real, no mind would be able to address the question because there would be no mind. The rest is just a subset of Slick’s transcendental argument for the existence of god and has the same flaws.

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  242. ciaron (1,318 comments) says:

    What about Leibniz’s Argument?
    Anyone got a defeater for that?

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  243. SGA (817 comments) says:

    @cairon
    I think DPF banned David Hume for six weeks for repeated bad language. Perhaps he’ll post when the ban is lifted.

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  244. Psycho Milt (2,270 comments) says:

    What about Leibniz’s Argument?
    Anyone got a defeater for that?

    You mean, the one that goes: something doesn’t come from nothing, therefore God done it? It’s actually a non sequitur, not an argument.

    It has a surface plausibility to it, in that if we don’t know what caused something we can create a placeholder for that unknown cause (we could call it ‘wibble,’ for instance) and whenever we have to refer to that unknown cause, we can say wibble and people will take that as shorthand for the otherwise lengthy description. It has an element of convenience about it, but what we most definitely haven’t done by naming this unknown cause ‘wibble’ is explained something.

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  245. ciaron (1,318 comments) says:

    You mean, the one that goes: something doesn’t come from nothing, therefore God done it? It’s actually a non sequitur, not an argument.

    That’s an awesome strawman Milt, but you knew that… didn’t you.

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  246. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    “As a worldview, atheism is intellectually bankrupt and is wrought with philosophical problems. Let’s look at the inability for the atheistic worldview to account for rationality.

    Now, I’ve already done a lot on this topic on the carm website and in videos. So I’m not going to get into this very deeply here. However, I can summarize by saying that atheism cannot account for rationality. You see, logic is based upon universal truth statements which we call the laws of logic. Such laws are, for example, the law of identity, the law of non-contradiction, and the law of excluded middle. These universal truth statements are what rational arguments are based upon. If these additional laws changed depending upon the situation, location, time, or an individual’s personal preferences, then there is no basis for rationality; and truth could not be known. Truth would then depend upon situations and personal opinions. If that were the case, then I could say that blue sleeps faster than Wednesday, and whatever I say is always true because I claim it.

    But, this is not rational, and you and I both know that isn’t.

    In the Christian worldview, the universal truth statements are derived from God. These universal truth statements–these laws of identity–are conceptual by nature. Why? Because they are statements. Statements require minds; and since logic is the process of the mind, the logical foundations upon which rationality depends are of the mind and are conceptual by nature. If the atheist were to say that logical processes are not of the mind or that the truth statements which are the foundations of logic are not of the mind, then he is being irrational. After all, truth is a statement which agrees with reality. And because truth is constructed in statements, a mind is required for such statements to be made.

    Let me clarify. If a rock is all that exists in the universe, it is true that a rock is the only thing that exists. But saying that it is the only thing that exists is a statement which requires a mind. If there are no minds and the rock is all that exists, no statements can be made about the rock. It would not be known that it was the only thing existing. But truth statements are known. Therefore, all such truth statements require minds; and the universal, logical absolutes, truth statements that form the basis of rational thought require a mind to be made and known.

    Atheism has no way of accounting for these universal truth statements. Atheists can try and state that the laws of logic are based upon human minds, but this cannot be because human minds are different and contradict each other as well as themselves. Since logical absolutes are universally true, they cannot be the product of human minds because human minds are limited, are not universally true, and often contradict each other. If the atheist wants to say that the logical absolutes are merely descriptions of behavior of the universe, then how would an atheist by observation determine the third law of logic, the law of excluded middle, which says that statements are either true or false? He couldn’t. If the atheist wants to say that logical absolutes are the result of chemical processes in the brain, that can’t work because it would mean that logic could be altered by brain chemistry. Some atheists say that logic is a product of human language, but that doesn’t work because languages are subjective and culturally variable where logic is not. If the atheist says that logic is a property of the universe like motion and gravity, the problem here is that you cannot measure the laws of logic where such things like weight, mass, heat, and cold can be measured.

    So, atheists repeatedly try to respond to the issue of trying to account for rationality founded in universal truth statements also known as logical absolutes. But in all their trying and all their attempted logical outcry, they fail. Why? Because atheism doesn’t have the substance to account for rationality. It is deficient as a worldview.

    But, Christianity comes to the rescue and states that the universal truth statements reflect the universal mind. We, as God’s creation, are able to recognize them because we are made in God’s image. Where Christianity provides an answer to this important issue, atheism clearly fails to deliver.”

    “Logic can’t prove logic, therefore God”? Just a fallacious argument from ignorance. Might as well say, “Logic can’t prove logic, but if we’re all in the Matrix, the Matrix provides logic, so people who don’t believe in the Matrix have deficient worldviews.”

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