General Debate 15 April 2014

April 15th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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328 Responses to “General Debate 15 April 2014”

  1. wreck1080 (3,731 comments) says:

    Dunedin city councillors — wave goodbye to 100′s of millions because of your bumblings.

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  2. RF (1,272 comments) says:

    Plus any future oil / gas exploration in Otago. Luddites who prefer to go back to the dark ages.

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  3. hj (6,358 comments) says:

    Just five years ago, the Government relaxed the immigration conditions placed on wealthy investors. Already, however, it is being lobbied to ease the rules even further. A group called the Construction Development Alliance wants to see a new business migrant category to rectify what it sees as flaws in the two present classes, particularly the English language requirement. It claims to have received strong expressions of support from the Prime Minister, although a spokeswoman for John Key says this is a matter of interpretation. Either way, there is good reason for the Government to be wary about a further loosening of the rules.

    Currently, New Zealand has an Investor Plus policy that allows migrants who invest $10 million in this country to get residency in three years. They do not require any English skills or business experience. Secondly, there is an Investor category that stipulates just a $1.5 million investment for four years but demands competence in English.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11234593

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  4. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Les Mills’ gyms will suffer when employers pull the pin on memberships for staff as part of salary packages. The types that support the companies’ attitudes to manmade global warming sure as hell don’t visit gyms.
    See Maggot Manning has joined McCarten at fairy headquarters . . . what a line-up of trough snouting dishonest charlatans, really highlighting the Labour movement. Suppose it also really clarifies “Tojo’s” hypocrisy . . . he said he did not want the Algerian murdering terrorist’s family here, now we will even have his camels and six wives.

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  5. Elaycee (4,301 comments) says:

    Another jaundiced effort from Bernadine Oliver-Kirby on NewstalkZB this morning… first she maintained her fixation on the Maori Party fundraiser where the PM was guest speaker (shock, horror) and the very next item she ‘tut, tut, tut’s’ over the meal the PM and his family had with the Royals last night…. especially: who was going to pay???

    I know it’s too much to ask broadcasters to be balanced – we’ve passed the point of no return. But can’t a news reader put their partisan political views on hold whilst reading the news?

    Or maybe we should now consider NewstalkZB’s News Bulletins to be opinion pieces….

    Between Oliver-Kirby and Niva Ritimanu, the left are ‘well represented’.

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  6. hj (6,358 comments) says:

    “Massey University’s Paul Spoonley discusses the growth of Asian communities and the attitudes towards them in today’s multicultural New Zealand.

    The early results from the 2013 Census highlight the growth of Asian communities in Aotearoa New Zealand and the size of the growth indicates that some tipping points have been reached and passed – while other key moments are not far away.

    In 2001, Asians made up 6.6 percent of New Zealanders but this had doubled to almost 12 percent by 2013. This represents 471,700 people, compared to 295,900 Pasifika and 598,600 Māori. Sometime in the next decade or so, if present trends continue, there will be more who identify as Asian than Māori in Aotearoa New Zealand.”
    http://asianz.org.nz/newsroom/insight/aotearoa-and-its-asian-communities

    “Executive Summary
    Relative to other OECD countries, New Zealand has high rates of population inflow and
    outflow. These are related: there has been a deliberate policy choice since the early
    1990s to more than replace departing New Zealanders with immigrants. Significant
    benefits were anticipated from increasing the number and quality of people working within
    New Zealand’s reformed economy and institutions. ”

    “At that time, it was considered that skills-focused inward migration could: improve growth
    by bringing in better quality human capital and addressing skills shortages; improve
    international connections and boost trade; help mitigate the effects of population ageing;
    and have beneficial effects on fiscal balance. As well as “replacing” departing
    New Zealanders and providing particular help with staffing public services (for example,
    medical professionals), it was believed that migration flows could be managed so as to
    avoid possible detrimental effects (such as congestion or poorer economic prospects) for
    existing New Zealanders.

    Since then, New Zealand has had substantial gross and net immigration, which has been
    relatively skill-focused by international standards. However, New Zealand’s economic
    performance has not been transformed. Growth in GDP per capita has been relatively
    lacklustre, with no progress in closing income gaps with the rest of the advanced world,
    and productivity performance has been poor. It may be that initial expectations about the
    potential positive net benefits of immigration were too high.

    Based on a large body of new research evidence and practical experience, the consensus
    among policymakers now is that other factors are more important for per capita growth
    23
    and productivity than migration and population growth. CGE modelling exercises for
    Australia and New Zealand have been influential in reshaping expectations. ”
    http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-policy/wp/2014/14-10

    Migration and Macroeconomic
    Performance in New Zealand:
    Theory and Evidence
    Julie Fry
    New Zealand Treasury Working Paper 14/10

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  7. EAD (611 comments) says:

    Simon Black makes a good point over on Zerohedge on the morality of taxation. American focused but pertinent nonetheless:

    “I think taxes are morally reprehensible. Taxes rob an entire population of its financial resources in favor of a tiny political elite that has a long-term track record of incompetence and deceit. Unfortunately, though, this humiliating exercise is forcibly perpetrated at gunpoint. So not filing your taxes can lead to very bad consequences.

    People are brainwashed into believing that taxes are a ‘privilege’, and the “price we pay for civilized society.” But if the society is so civilized, and it’s such a privilege, then why do they have to threaten people at the point of a gun?

    It’s because the value proposition is completely upside down. Whether in the US, France, England, Spain, or Italy, people pay out the nose for taxes… and get very little in return

    Think about it as you write that check to the government– are you getting any value?

    A few hundred years ago, the Founding Fathers certainly didn’t think so. As Samuel Adams summed up in 1764, taxes made the colonists “tributary slaves” to the British government.

    And the taxes that they were paying were almost nothing compared to what people pay today. They would be astounded to find citizens in “free societies” paying 40%, 50% of their -income-, plus property, estates, sales purchases, imports, etc. to a massively bloated government.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-13/guest-post-if-its-such-privelege-why-do-they-have-stick-gun-your-face

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  8. hj (6,358 comments) says:

    Key challenges Cunliffe to TV debate on housing
    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/key-challenges-cunliffe-tv-debate-housing-5922123

    Key will ask for evidence of foreign buyers (the government doesn’t collect any) and then he will claim racism.
    Labour has been raised on Critical White Studies, White privilege etc and Cunliffe will wet his pants.
    He won’t know about evolutionary psychology (all humans have an innate preference for people they perceive as being of their group), the inverse relationship between diversity and community cohesion etc.

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  9. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    igm
    Were you always a complete bigot, or did you have to work at it?

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  10. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    Pseudo-democracy as a vehicle for statism:

    http://www.christophercantwell.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/voting.jpg

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  11. Alan (1,063 comments) says:

    Didn’t the same people now saying boycott Les Mills this week, slate the Mozilla boycott last week ?

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  12. Judith (7,626 comments) says:

    @ RF (1,119 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 8:08 am

    Or perhaps people that care enough they don’t want their descendants living in a stone age?

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  13. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    EAD
    You have a morally defensible alternative to taxation in mind? And I thought the American revolutionaries didn’t object to taxation per se; just to ‘taxation without representation’.

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  14. Komata (1,110 comments) says:

    hj

    An interesting piece, but I fear Prof. Spoonley understate the case.

    The ‘Asian ‘ tipping point’ long passed, and as such this now presents a real problem for Maori. They are now becoming outnumbered and are being ‘out-bred’, by a people-group who will have absolutely no regard for the treaty and could care less about it. No doubt the various ‘gravy train’ lawyers will be very aware of such matters and be acting accordingly.

    Simply based-upon the figures given above, it is not inconceivable that, because of carefully-promoted actions, Maori-PI-originating ‘anti-asian’ riots will eventually occur, prompted by jealousy and envy, and the fact that, to some, ‘Asians have all our money’ via loan sharks etc. It has happened before, but not yet in New Zealand. The matter will become more problematical for such groups when the ‘asian-tide’ reaches Parliament and its influence starts to come into legislation. As already noted, Various ‘interest groups’ will no doubt use it to their advantage (as always).

    Combine that, with the rise of militant islam in New Zealand, as will inevitably occur, (we are not exempt) and we will be living in ‘interesting’ times…

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  15. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    What examples can you give of ‘the rise of militant Islam in New Zealand’?

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  16. EAD (611 comments) says:

    Here is one very soon to be ex Les Mills customer.

    Just like Al Gore who buys a house by the Ocean and the earnest do-gooders who in their thousands fly business/first class around their world to their annual talkfest climate change summits, does Phillip Mills practice what he preaches? Or is he like Helen Clark who is “fighting global poverty” with her tax free $500,000 annual salary and all expenses paid jet-setting lifestyle. I judge a person by their actions as opinions are cheap and you Mr Mills are a fraud.

    And here is the kicker – the ICC report is all bullshit:

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2014/04/03/debunking-the-ipcc-report

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  17. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    Nice cartoon Ugly. I don’t think anyone would disagree with you that a functioning democracy requires more than just periodic voting.

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  18. Ross12 (1,149 comments) says:

    I read the Mills PR release. He goes about no Government action/ support for “green industry”. Why does he need government support. If it is so good get on and do something. Mills is a wealthy guy and he has wealthy mates in his group.. Does he want guaranteed government subsidies to make these industries viable ? Does he want Government grants ? Does he want Government regulations to protect these industries ?

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  19. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    @ mikenmild (8.31am) – it’s a rare day that you get an uptick from me, but you’re right on the money. I don’t know Deborah Manning from a bar of soap, and I still have reservations over Ahmed Zhoui but her defence of him was tenacious and unrelenting, and she deserves credit for that. Describing her as a “maggot” because of her political beliefs is offensive; we should be above that.

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  20. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    Thanks KS, although personally I was more offended by the ‘camels and six wives’ bit.

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  21. doggone7 (696 comments) says:

    Elaycee; Or maybe we should now consider NewstalkZB’s News Bulletins to be opinion pieces….

    Between Oliver-Kirby and Niva Ritimanu, the left are ‘well represented’.

    I just looked on the electronic scoreboard- that’s 49-2 on NewstalkZB. Analysis of the stats though shows that Hosking counts as 13 by himself!

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  22. KiwiGreg (3,176 comments) says:

    @ross12 – agree it looks like special pleading for his particular business interests; for which he is paying the green and labour parties.

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  23. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    Kim Dotcom is a politician now. He is the head honcho and “visionary” of the Internet Party, so that elevates him to the same level as the likes of Peter Goodfellow (National), Moira Coatsworth (Labour) and Naida Glavish (Maori Party).

    Can you imagine the outcry if any of them posted something like this on social media? It’s time for the media to start holding Dotcom to a different standard of accountability now that he has chosen to be part of the political process.

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  24. ex-golfer (146 comments) says:

    igms hatred of anything left is well known.
    Unfortunately he displays the same personality traits as those he attacks in his daily post.
    Bitterness, bile and abuse…..not to mention, boring.

    And I await his attack in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1……….

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  25. Paulus (2,502 comments) says:

    Mr Mills – I shall be looking at another Gym when my current membership expires next month.

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  26. Elaycee (4,301 comments) says:

    @doggone (8.54am): Mike Hosking has his own show. He expresses his opinions. No different to the Friday night slot filled by the harridan with a voice that could double as the foghorn on the Arahura (hard core leftard, Pam Corkery).

    But Oliver-Kirby and Ritimanu are supposed to read the news.

    Can you not see the difference?

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  27. jcuk (585 comments) says:

    Only 9.05 I know but “what no 9/11, abortion, religious” posts …. Wunderbar!
    Keep up the good work lads and lassies

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  28. dime (9,435 comments) says:

    Oliver-Kirby – this chick annoys Dime.

    Have a listen to her. Some how she manages to pronounce silent H’s.. when becomes w-hen etc drives me nuts.

    the newstalkzb newsroom is left wing. radio live, also left wing. shit happens i guess.

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  29. kowtow (7,631 comments) says:

    What a precious bunch of multicultural crim/lawyer hugs we are today?

    “Offended ” by camels and six wives, maggots ? Pfft.

    Ahmed Z has a string of criminal convictions from a variety of jurisdictions. He binned a passport when he entered this country as an illegal immigrant .Refugee ,my arse, stay in Indonesia or malaysia with his fellow Islamic supremacists , no the welfare is better here.

    And yes there is a militant threat. The SIS know of “kiwis” in Syria!

    Wake up.

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  30. EAD (611 comments) says:

    The deluded lefties always go on about their favourite boogie-men – the “Koch Brothers” and “big oil”. I think we righties might have found our new boogie-men – “Mills family” and “big-gym” :)

    Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if he has “green investments” to financially benefit from the Green Scam as outlined in method 4 of the 7 levels by which to rob your fellow citizens:

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  31. fernglas (101 comments) says:

    On One this morning I caught the tail end of Cunliffe talking about what I assume was the dinner with the Royals and who had paid , saying of Key “he could afford it” He can’t stop himself, can he? The point everyone seems to miss is that he is not criticising Key for being excessively wealthy, he is simply jealous. As I have said before, his family income is close to a million per year (and he can’t say that most of that is his wife’s; the Relationship Property legislation makes that clear). He has a house on a great and very expensive street in Herne Bay, and who knows what else. And he wants more. That is what he is after. Not social justice. Power and wealth. When I hear him talk about what “kiwis want” all I think is how the fuck would he have a clue. How dare he presume to speak for me.

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  32. dirty harry (429 comments) says:

    “Between Oliver-Kirby and Niva Ritimanu, the left are ‘well represented’.”

    Couple of air heads with blabber mouths who don’t really think too much before engaging mouth ..both should be at home cooking and cleaning awaiting hubbies arrival home from work with warmed slippers.

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  33. mister nui (975 comments) says:

    Hope you’ve all sold your Xero shares…. Next stop 17 bucks, and support there isn’t strong….

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  34. Simon (685 comments) says:

    Well with the Ahmed Z mess it meant that the refugee quota was kept down. Hundreds of refugee families fleeing from failed governments were kept out of NZ as a result.

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  35. dirty harry (429 comments) says:

    Haven’t you heard of sleeper cells mikemilk..pods of islam scattered around the world, breeding , slowly smothering the mother country…have a look at a place called England…now have a look at Australia…you think that good old Nil Zild will be exempt from that?

    They are here…now…

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  36. ciaron (1,315 comments) says:

    This one’s for milt. (carried over from yesterday)

    1) everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of it’s own nature or in an external cause.

    2) if the universe has an explanation of it’s existence, that explanation is God. (logically equivalent of the statement: if God does not exist, the universe has no explanation).

    3) the universe exists.

    4) therefore, the universe has an explanation of it’s existence. (follows from 1 & 3)

    5) therefore, the explanation of the existence of the universe is God. (follows from 2 & 4)

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  37. thePeoplesFlag (175 comments) says:

    “… and the very next item she ‘tut, tut, tut’s’ over the meal the PM and his family had with the Royals last night…. especially: who was going to pay..???”

    Key said it was a private dinner. Only the taxpayer was paying for it. But John Key wasn’t going to tell you anything about it, because he didn’t see it as public money.

    I think we’ll start calling Key’s attitude to accounting for public money “the Te Kohanga Reo National Trust defense”. You know, if it doesn’t suit you, you just tell hard-working New Zealanders how taxpayers money is spent is none of their business.

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  38. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Mounted numpties hiding behind their mummsie’s.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/14/former-arizona-sheriff-reveals-chilling-strategy-to-put-women-up-at-the-front-during-bundy-ranch-standoff/

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  39. hj (6,358 comments) says:

    @ Komata
    “Projections suggest that the New Zealand population – which recently topped 4,444,444 – will hit five million by 2031. That number should not be seen as a certainty, however. Spoonley points out that previous projections have consistently fallen short of the reality. “Every time there has been a projection about population size – when New Zealand would reach one million, two million, etcetera – they have under-estimated. The population has reached the target earlier than estimated.” – http://definingnz.com/demography/

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  40. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    There is no rise of militant Islam in NZ. The claim strikes me as irresponsible hysteria. The one possible example I can think of were some issues with the Christchurch mosque a few years back. Concerns were raised that an attempt was being made by Saudi sources to take over the mosque. What is interesting is that the opposition to this came from local Muslim community. As far as I know the attempt failed.

    Muslim immigration to NZ is small, tiny compared to other ethnic groups, so we are not in the position Europe is and are unlikely ever to be.

    The example of the 20th century should make responsible and compassionate people extremely wary of creating paranoia and conspiracy theories about any ethnic group, especially when they are a small minority.

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  41. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    Only 9.05 I know but “what no 9/11, abortion, religious” posts …. Wunderbar!

    Installing a taboo about topics that have a fundamental importance to society really isn’t a good idea. Of course there are going to be flame wars when people’s sacred cows come under fire, it’s simply a consequence of a public consciousness which is disconnected from reality.

    There shouldn’t even be an argument about 9/11, the case for nuclear devices (excess heat, fission products, and skin burns) is so clear cut.

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  42. dime (9,435 comments) says:

    mister nui – whats going on with Xero shares? i only follow US stocks.

    i went to yahoo finance, the only stories on xero were praise..

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  43. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    How many saw the feral Labour/Green benefit breeder whinging about losing some of the section and double garage in its taxpayer-funded State house? It seemed to have the necessities of life, a motorised mini bike for a kid, dog on the bed, holes in all the walls, unmown lawns, unmade beds, but a big flat screen Tv. Where was the father, or fathers of the four kids, or were they just picked out of a bar to breed up the benefits it could leech off us?

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  44. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    830 comments full of piss and bile – it’s the old hole isn’t Ian, she’s not cold cunting you again is she?.

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  45. ciaron (1,315 comments) says:

    Go the down ticks…
    Y’all would know from this mornings end to yesterdays GD, that the argument is one formulated by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz – the bloke who independently came up with integral and differential calculus about the same time as Newton?

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  46. Ross12 (1,149 comments) says:

    Can someone remind me what the outcome of the Greenpeace charitable status court case was ? I seem to remember that they appealed and won on the basis that they would not engage in any political lobbying / activity. Am I correct ? If so given their latest politicking effort ( http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/04/wanting-find-oil-isnt-sacking-offence-cuddling-unions/ ) what happens under the law? Does another case have to occur or can the IRD just ask for some form of judicial judgement to have their charitable status removed ?

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  47. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “Go the down ticks”

    I wouldn’t take them too seriously. On one thread alone I had one comment receive so many upticks it made the popular posts, and another receive almost as many downticks.

    I take them as seriously as I took the worm a few elections ago. Which is to say, not at all.

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  48. dirty harry (429 comments) says:

    I saw it igm. She has a bad case of entitlementitis..and what a shithole ” my ” property has become. The piece of trash is letting one of her spawn live in the garage. That is against the law. I saw the chopper motorcycle as well ..and the little fat porker son riding it…no shortage of food there. 12 years she has been living in the house and she ain’t moving anytime soon.

    Bludgeoning parasitical leech of the worst kind with a brain the size of a pistachio.

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  49. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    cha: Literacy abilities display of a usual left-wing leech!

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  50. David Garrett (6,427 comments) says:

    igm: Lawyers dont have to like their clients to defend them (although it can help if you do)…Obviously Manning is a leftie, and undoubtedly believed in Zaoui, but I think you’re being a bit OTT with that criticism of her..

    Mikey: You are quite right that there is little or no VISIBLE radical Islamist actions here…yet. But there certainly are in Australia where they have reached the “critical mass” in the population necessary to start demanding societal change…why on earth would it be any different here if we let enough of them in? What makes us the one and only western country where a population of 5% plus Muslims would live here totally peaceably, demanding nothing?

    I am deadly serious when I say that in my view radical Islam is THE biggest threat to the western world, of which were are a small part…and if we let enough of the bastards in the Maori terrorist training camps uncovered in 2007 will seem like kids’ stuff….I dont believe we should let in ANY more immigrants from Muslim countries, not one… as 9/11 showed they can disguise themselves to blend in, ergo keep all of them out…no matter how “secular” they claim to be…

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  51. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    So it is the old hole!.

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  52. ex-golfer (146 comments) says:

    @igm
    Yep, nice to see TV catch up with a story that was in the papers two weeks ago.
    She got zero support then.
    She’ll get zero support now.
    NZ has woken up to the entitlement mentality.
    I am happy we can live in a country that supports those truly in need, but we have to put a stop to supporting those that are in greed.

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  53. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    cha: Best you go hide behind your editorship and don’t get exposed. Your putrid views are akin to “The Standard” and its foul supporters, not a decent post such as this!

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  54. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    ” it’s the old hole isn’t Ian, she’s not cold cunting you again is she?.”

    There really needs to be more stringent moderating of personal abuse here. It’s tiresome, childish, and adds nothing to the debates.

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  55. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    I am deadly serious when I say that in my view radical Islam is THE biggest threat to the western world

    That threat is in part a result of the west’s empire building and proxy terrorism.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/

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  56. stephieboy (2,183 comments) says:

    I noticed that resident tea bagger and Obama hater Fletch posted a link about alleged Democrat voter fraud in Northern Carolina . A closer examination of the issue is apparently an attempt by the GOP to make legibility for voting even more difficult ,especially for those who are poor black, Hispanic and white etc .
    But Fletch , the GOP and other tea baggers should remind themselves of Jesus’s timely admonition about casting the first stone,

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/09/jack-villamaino-voter-fraud_n_3728456.html

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  57. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    There really needs to be more stringent moderating of personal abuse here. It’s tiresome, childish, and adds nothing to the debates.

    The Hegelian dialectic at work. Tell me more about “UglyNazi” and “UglyNut”.

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  58. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    A few weeks ago I asked a question re Xero that went something like “why is everybody lauding Rod Dury when his company has yet to make a profit?”

    If I remember I was shouted down, it seemed that to question the supposed genius of Mr Drury was akin to saying that Richie McCaw is a cheat on the rugby field or that the New Zealand rugby team are arrogant.

    It seems the markets are starting to ask the same questions re Xero, perhaps the emperor is not actually wearing any clothes.

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  59. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “But Fletch , the GOP and other tea baggers should understand Jesus’s admonition about casting the first stone”

    Like accusing people critical of Obama’s policies, and libertarians/conservatives in general, of racism stephie?

    “Conservatives Push For Ben Carson 2016 Run Gains Momentum”

    http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/04/12/conservatives-push-ben-carson-2016-run-gains-momentum

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  60. David Garrett (6,427 comments) says:

    Shawn: the personal abuse here presently is much milder than it was in the past…fortunately some of the more foamy elements have departed or been banned…But sticks and stones, cut and thrust old boy: why would you be particuarly concerned if some anonymous troll calls you a nasty name?

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  61. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    DG

    I normally agree with you and also happen to think that igm has more than a hint of D4J about him however on this he is right.

    Manning defended (with our tax dollars) a man convicted of terrorism, a man who told numerous lies during his incarceration (remember the one about becoming a Christian?) and a man who was so “in love” with his family he refused to join them overseas when he was free to leave NZ at any time.

    Zaoui remains a convicted terrorist, he is not a man I want in this country at all.

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  62. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Fair enough Ugly, but if you and Reid insist on posting some of the things you do with regards to Jewish people (and please, none of your silliness about who you think a real Jew is) then it shouldn’t surprise you when your called on it.

    I need to do a better job of how I do that, but I won’t back down with regards to calling a spade a spade.

    And your own tactic of using “fucking liar” to anyone who disagrees with your claims does not exactly invite reasonable responses.

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  63. stephieboy (2,183 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth ,Left Wing hypocrisy and Islam and the myth of Western Empire building etc,

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  64. Dean Papa (743 comments) says:

    1st rule of data: Garbage in, garbage out

    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/apr/10/dick-morris/dick-morris-theres-proof-over-1-million-people-vot/

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  65. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    DG

    Shawn gets a bit upset when we refuse to take his word for it that the sky fairy exists.

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  66. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    David G,

    “why would you be particuarly concerned if some anonymous troll calls you a nasty name?”

    I’m not. But it sometimes goes well overboard what seems to me to be reasonable. The comment I copied to respond is a good example.

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  67. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    BigB: Who is the bigger liar and thief: Zaoui or Dotcom?

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  68. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Beck takes a reasonable position and heads explode. The comments are glorious.

    https://www.facebook.com/GlennBeck/posts/10152344292673188?stream_ref=10

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  69. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    No BB, I get annoyed when people like yourself cannot engage in adult debate without spewing personal abuse, or accusing me, as you did last night, of lying, when you have no good reason to do so, other than your prejudice.

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  70. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    That was a brilliant video stephie!

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  71. doggone7 (696 comments) says:

    Elaycee

    Choosing the items to be (or not be) on the news is a political act. Writing and editing the items are political acts. Reading the news is a political act. The radio station is a political place. The station can do whatever it wants i.e. allow its people to act how they want.

    NewstalkZb is a private business and can do what it likes and live by its own ways and standards of operating. We don’t have to listen. News is entertainment and people accept and even expect light hearted approaches and flippancy and don’t blast (or even recognise) the intrusion of personal asides and tones in news broadcasts. Probably with the exception of grave situations – but even then comments and tones to go with the morose flow are now the norm. NewstalkZb is a seething nest of opinions and feelings with them being expressed in various ways.

    Old people like me generally notice and don’t like the intrusions of irrelevancies into the news. My elderly mother telling the radio or tv to ‘stick to the bloody news.” The news is the news. You obviously feel the same.
    .

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  72. Ed Snack (1,737 comments) says:

    Step hie, the Puffington Host on voter fraud, ?!? Really ? They wouldn’t have, like, a vested interest maybe ?

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  73. Paulus (2,502 comments) says:

    Seeing that leftie Debs Manning is now the latest saviour of the Labour Party could somebody confirm that her rise to infamy with Ahmed Zaoui now he has a family of 18 Muslims in New Zealand.

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  74. dime (9,435 comments) says:

    bruv – if you think xero is bad, you should check out some amazon shares.

    companies arent valued for past performance, investors care about the future.

    i dont know enough about xero, but its not uncommon for a tech stock to be worth billions while making no money.. some are scams (like salesforce.com), some go on to make money..

    personally, not the sort of stocks dime loves.

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  75. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    And your own tactic of using “fucking liar” to anyone who disagrees with your claims does not exactly invite reasonable responses.

    Lots of posters disagree with my claims, I save the abuse for those who deserve it.

    Looking at you, ShawnLH.

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  76. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Whatever Ugly, Iv’e seen you make the “lying” claim to people who merely disagree with you or your sources, so I think your just excusing that.

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  77. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    Fair enough Ugly, but if you and Reid insist on posting some of the things you do with regards to Jewish people (and please, none of your silliness about who you think a real Jew is) then it shouldn’t surprise you when your called on it.

    Pointing out that Zionism is aligned with anti-semitism isn’t silliness, it is fact.

    “It would be an excellent idea to call in respectable, accredited anti-Semites as liquidators of property. To the people they would vouch for the fact that we do not wish to bring about the impoverishment of the countries that we leave. At first they must not be given large fees for this; otherwise we shall spoil our instruments and make them despicable as ‘stooges of the Jews.’ Later their fees will increase, and in the end we shall have only Gentile officials in the countries from which we have emigrated. The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies.” (The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl. Vol. 1, edited by Raphael Patai, translated by Harry Zohn, page 83-84)
    http://www.truetorahjews.org/herzl

    Also, it’s standard practice for Zionists to cry “anti-semite” when they are attacked, which is serious hypocrisy.

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  78. Grant (426 comments) says:

    ….and the door to Bedlam opens just that little bit wider…

    G

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  79. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Talk to a mirror Ugly, I’m not interested in your opinions. On anything.

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  80. emmess (1,369 comments) says:

    I see Silent T is running scared by not turning up on a potential puff piece on Campbell Live (although to be fair the ‘Leaders at home’ format ought to show all the leaders in a good light as well).

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  81. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    Iv’e seen you make the “lying” claim to people who merely disagree with you or your sources, so I think your just excusing that.

    You mean Nostradamus? I think the way he took my statement about the no planes theory out of context says it all.

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  82. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    I’m not interested in your opinions.

    I’m not interested in pushing my opinions. You can’t just walk away from the consequences of following a lying hypocrite, ShawnLH.

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  83. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “I’m not interested in pushing my opinions.”

    Then why are you posting them?

    “You can’t just walk away from the consequences of following a lying hypocrite, ShawnLH.”

    I can do anything I want. Your definition of who is or is not a liar is of no interest to me. Apart from that I have no idea who your talking about.

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  84. kowtow (7,631 comments) says:

    Paulus

    Ahmed the Terrorist has 18 family members here ?

    Surely not!Any details?

    Our MSM (taxpayer funded TVNZ) had him literally as a poster boy a few years back.

    They’ve done a show on him as a hard working food stall entrepeneur.

    If he has since brought in 18 people I would have expected our fearless and unbiased media to have done a few indepth reports on how the long suffering tax payer is being ripped off by the consequences of the decisions made by members of our permanent political class.

    How many more Tampa illegal immigrants have brought in more multiples of relatives and how many are on benefits?

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  85. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    More on the Koch brothers. Members of Congress who have accepted donations from the Koch brothers in the past include, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and other Democrats. The Kochs have donated $316,050 to the Democrats between 2006-2014, including $5,500 to Barack Obama, $3,500 to Hillary Clinton, $750 to Joe Biden etc.

    http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/obama-biden-schumer-and-hillary-clinton-took-koch-brothers-money

    So where is the big conspiracy?

    Perhaps the Dems are hurt because they feel they’re not getting as much money from the Kochs any more, but people can donate to who they want to, can’t they?

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  86. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Fletch, you know it’s only bad when the Right accept accept donations from the Koch brothers. When the Left does it’s completely acceptable. ;)

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  87. kowtow (7,631 comments) says:

    ennmess

    Campbell ,Cunners no show.

    I really wanted to see how Cunners would manage.

    I reckon Key did such a great job of it the other week,that the Cunners’ camp decided he just couldn’t match Key as a good ol’ likeable boy.They knew that comparisons would be inevitable so just wouldn’t turn up.

    I say this as someone who has no great liking of Key as a National leader.Just a straight up unbiased opinion.

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  88. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Oh Noe’s!, Tom’s gone mainstream.
    /

    http://posti.fi/english/current/2014/20140413_stamps.html

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  89. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    ShawnLH

    You did lie. You said that the sky fairy exists and that the proof is out there. If you are not lying then show me the truth and I will retract that statement.

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  90. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    Then why are you posting them?

    Facts and rational argument aren’t opinion.

    Apart from that I have no idea who your talking about.

    Try lying Pharisee, then.

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  91. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    BB,

    your a little confused. The “lie” you accused me of was about my wife and I having been volunteer counsellors in the 90′s.

    And to the other issue, I never said anything about proof one way or another.

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  92. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    If you are not lying then show me the truth and I will retract that statement.

    Lying involves intent to deceive, expressing a false belief isn’t really lying.

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  93. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Ugly,

    “Facts and rational argument aren’t opinion.”

    They are when they are neither facts nor rational.

    “Try lying Pharisee, then.”

    Oh dear. Like I said Ugly your bizarre opinions on that, or anything else, don’t interest me.

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  94. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Shawnlh fails totally to understand that trying to inflict his faith as a valid political standpoint is extremely insulting to an atheist in a secular country.

    Is there a difference between a Christian trying to enforce christian beliefs as law and a Muslim doing the same ?

    Both deserve contempt in a rational society.

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  95. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    See the “Beast of Blenheim” has again been denied parole. This is the germ that Laws wanted banned from Wanganui, but was ridiculed and maligned by lefties, saying he was not to be worried about. Well, once again Michael has been proven correct, and after going to Wanganui on business last Friday, see the town appears once again a mess, being full of vacant commercial space. I wonder why!

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  96. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “Shawnlh fails totally to understand that trying to inflict his faith”

    I’m not trying to inflict anything. I am simply expressing my opinion like everyone else.

    ” is extremely insulting to an atheist in a secular country.”

    So what?

    “Is there a difference between a Christian trying to enforce christian beliefs as law”

    I’m not trying to enforce my opinions as law.

    “Both deserve contempt in a rational society.”

    Your opinions about our society are just opinions, not fact.

    So that’s three epic fails Griff. Not off to a good start are you. :)

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  97. dirty harry (429 comments) says:

    Dunedin slips further into the abyss…fools..

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9943389/5-star-hotel-dumps-Dunedin

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  98. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    igm,

    “See the “Beast of Blenheim” has again been denied parole.”

    I must have missed the news. Was he put back inside?

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  99. Elaycee (4,301 comments) says:

    At the risk of interrupting the ‘fascinating’ religious discussions (/sarc), I’d like to pose a question:

    Am I the only one unimpressed by the tactics of Oscar Pistorius whenever the ‘going gets tough’ during his trial?

    To me, his ‘all too frequent’ crocodile tears are a deliberate ploy designed to blur the distinct possibility the angry man deliberately shot and killed his girlfriend after she told him she wanted to leave.

    Or, am I reading too much into his blubbering / his dry retching / his constant tactic of directing all answers to the Judge rather than back to the Prosecutor?

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  100. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    FFS

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9941763/Abusers-name-secret-despite-victims-wish

    The judge noted the man’s surname was different to his victim’s and said there was no basis on which name suppression should continue.

    He granted interim name suppression for 48 hours after sentencing, and permanently suppressed the identity of the man’s employer.

    The man appealed the sentence and conviction to the High Court, but later withdrew it.

    In formally dismissing the appeal in October, Justice Paul Heath acknowledged that the stepdaughter wished to waive her right to name suppression so the man could be named.

    But he would not lift name suppression until she formally applied to the district court.

    He said if she successfully applied, the offender’s name suppression would automatically lapse.

    The woman made that formal application and in the Napier District Court on Friday Judge Tony Adeane waived her right not to be identified. But he also allowed a “cross-application” from Fairbrother for full and final name suppression of the man.

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  101. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    Like I said Ugly your bizarre opinions on that, or anything else, don’t interest me.

    Those “bizarre opinions” are from your own religious canon.

    Blowing off rational argument as opinion is dishonest.

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  102. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    No, I meant your bizarre opinions Ugly. And which part of “I’m not interested” are you having trouble with?

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  103. dirty harry (429 comments) says:

    Xero up 60 cents to 30 bucks today…who was puffin on earlier about it hitting 17 bucks ?

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  104. Colville (2,081 comments) says:

    I think we need a special thread just so Shawn and Ugly can go there and pummel each other with their handbags…

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  105. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    ShawnLH

    Don’t try and weasel out of it. You claimed that you could differentiate between somebody suffering from a psychotic episode and those who had experienced the hand of god.

    That was why I accused you (quite correctly) of telling lies.

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  106. SGA (813 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 11:43 am

    And which part of “I’m not interested” are you having trouble with?

    The part where you keep on replying to him.

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  107. Elaycee (4,301 comments) says:

    Colville: I think we need a special thread just so Shawn and Ugly can go there…

    Or maybe:

    I think we need a special thread just separate blog so Shawn and Ugly can go…. :lol:

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  108. tom hunter (4,417 comments) says:

    I think we need a special thread just so Shawn and Ugly can go there and pummel each other with their handbags…

    Like The Itchy and Scratchy Show!

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  109. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Oh cripes BB, any psychiatrist can tell you there is a difference. Schizophrenia and psychotic breaks have very discernible symptoms and causes that are well documented. Standard brand religious experiences are not either, except in cases where there is already a discernible psychiatric illness, and if your claiming that all religious experiences are psychiatric illnesses then your dealing in opinion, not psychiatry.

    Colville,

    “I think we need a special thread just so Shawn and Ugly can go there and pummel each other with their handbags…”

    You may note that I’m trying to get him to stop talking to me.

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  110. tom hunter (4,417 comments) says:

    That may be so Shawn, but talking back to him is a certain fail. He lives for the comments of others.

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  111. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “The part where you keep on replying to him.”

    That has well and truly come to an end. mikenmild might be your prob from here on in. He seems to have a fascination with Ugly.

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  112. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Agreed Tom.

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  113. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    WTF?

    The Communist Party’s effort to root out corruption in officialdom is now targeting its biggest fish to date in the Chinese science establishment. On 12 April, the state news agency Xinhua reported that Shen Weichen, Communist Party secretary at the China Association for Science and Technology, or CAST, “is now under investigation for suspected serious violation of discipline and laws.”

    Shen, a career politician, was appointed CAST’s party secretary in April 2013. Prior to that, he served for 2 1/2 years as deputy propaganda minister of the Communist Party of China. Ironically, Shen was appointed to the discipline inspection commission in November 2012; ScienceInsider could not confirm whether he has been relieved of those duties.

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  114. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    When DPF gets home.

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  115. Scott Chris (5,880 comments) says:

    1) everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of it’s own nature or in an external cause.

    Does that include an explanation for God? If not then the assumption/premise is flawed.

    Y’all would know from this mornings end to yesterdays GD, that the argument is one formulated by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz – the bloke who independently came up with integral and differential calculus about the same time as Newton?

    Yeah Newton went off his rocker too and turned to alchemy. Lead or Mercury poisoning some say.

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  116. mara (726 comments) says:

    Air-head newsreader on newstalk ZB recently, commenting on Russian rouble problem, “Trouble with the rubble …”FFS!

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  117. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Actually, this is a good idea. I think I’ll add a couple of other people to the “do not respond” list.

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  118. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    That may be so Shawn, but talking back to him is a certain fail. He lives for the comments of others.

    LOL
    Guess again.

    In case you haven’t noticed, I like to argue. The purpose of argument is to show that a position is logically true, not simply to invite comment. There’s so much scope for it here because the forum is pretty much statist, and statism is fundamentally discconnected from reality.

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  119. Scott Chris (5,880 comments) says:

    Shawn vs Ugly (continuing the cartoon theme)

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  120. Yoza (1,545 comments) says:

    big bruv (12,302 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 10:15 am

    Zaoui remains a convicted terrorist, he is not a man I want in this country at all.

    OK, when I click on big bruv’s name/link I end up at a site which is not an English language site. I am no expert, but it looks like Afrikaans. So I’m just assuming big bruv is somehow connected with white South Africa. I fail to understand how any white South Africans resident here or any of their supporters can occupy any ethical or moral ground from which they can assault the legitimacy of Ahmed Zaoui’s New Zealand residency.
    Ahmed Zaoui was a minister in a democratically elected government which was violently deposed by the Algerian military. Allowing Zaoui residency in New Zealand is to stand against totalitarianism, something the SIS struggle to understand. White South African’s, on the other hand, ended up here as a consequence of the victims of their oppressive regime gaining control of the levers of state. In my mind, and I’m sure many others, Ahmed Zaoui’s residency has far more legitimacy than that of many former white immigrants from the Southern end of the African continent

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  121. ciaron (1,315 comments) says:

    Scott Chris (5,671 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 12:00 pm
    1) everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of it’s own nature or in an external cause.

    Does that include an explanation for God? If not then the assumption/premise is flawed.

    As far as the argument goes, God exists by necessity of his own nature, (as stated in the very premise you quote :)) and so does not require an external cause.

    Yeah Newton went off his rocker too and turned to alchemy. Lead or Mercury poisoning some say.
    What’s that got to do with anything?

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  122. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “In my mind, and I’m sure many others, Ahmed Zaoui’s residency has far more legitimacy than that of many former white immigrants from the Southern end of the African continent”

    No. I don’t know enough about Zaoui’s background to say anything about whether or not he was a terrorist or linked to terrorist groups. But his residency is not more legitimate than white South Africans.

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  123. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The man used false documents to enter our country ……..
    The Government has a right to vet immigration candidates at the border before they enter.
    Send him home. He committed an illegal act to gain entry. His First NZ Deed was to break our laws.
    End of issue.

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  124. Dean Papa (743 comments) says:

    Apparently Pistorius screams just like Flanders

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  125. KevinH (1,131 comments) says:

    R.I.P Alan Gibbs,passed away peacefully 09/04/14 aged 75 years.

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  126. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Does that include an explanation for God? If not then the assumption/premise is flawed.

    Theists get around that by defining God as “The Exception To The Rule”. Like, repeatedly.

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  127. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    How do Buddhists get around it Ryan? ;)

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  128. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Yeah Newton went off his rocker too and turned to alchemy. Lead or Mercury poisoning some say.

    I suspect you misunderstand what alchemy is.

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  129. tom hunter (4,417 comments) says:

    If you think that bigger government is the way to go it might pay to read the following article about the divorce of a Washington D.C. “power couple”, Heather and Tony Podesta, because it’s not just about their divorce.

    And Tony Podesta was no ordinary man. A longtime Democratic aide, a counselor to Teddy Kennedy, Tony had been one of the capital’s most powerful lobbyists for some time. As his lawyers would later put it, “‘Podesta’ was a widely recognized and well-respected name in the lobbying industry at the time of the marriage.” The lobbying firm he had established in 1987 was powerfully connected. His younger brother, John, was President Clinton’s chief of staff. Tony Podesta owned art and wine and real estate in Italy, in Australia, in northern Virginia, and in D.C. He was a major Democratic donor.

    The “marital residence,” where they promoted their shared interests in holding parties and fundraisers for Democratic politicians, and housed immense wine and art collections, is estimated to be worth some $5.6 million. Concerned about income inequality? The Podestas are the One Percent.

    They would visit their apartment in Venice, Italy, up to a dozen times a year, hosting Janet Napolitano, entertaining passersby such as Reps. Shelley Berkley and Eliot Engel, “even,” the Post once breathlessly intoned, “Teddy Kennedy.”

    More like the 0.5% I think. But things actually got better for them:

    The third prong was the Center for American Progress, founded in 2003 by John Podesta, who would oversee President Obama’s transition team in 2009, and join the Obama administration as a senior adviser in 2014. The Podestas had become the most important non-elected family in the Democratic Party.

    In 2009, with the inauguration of Obama and the dawn of unified Democratic control of Washington, business boomed. Revenues at Tony’s firm close to doubled, and revenues at Heather’s firm increased by 50 percent.

    Nice work if you can get it. The problem is what enables these people to get their wealth, wealth which receives not 1/10,000th of the attention given to the likes of Soros or the Koch Brothers. What gets them the wealth is feeding off an ever-growing State and contributing to that growth with policy ideas that then create rich grounds for lobbying:

    Corporations give to Democratic politicians, avoiding the scrutiny of liberal attack dogs in the media and nonprofit sectors, and enjoying the ego boost that comes with being on the “right side of history.”

    Then those corporations hire the Podestas to get them out of the Rube Goldberg traps the Democrats have enacted into law. John’s innovation was to establish a corporate-funded think tank where the burdensome policies would be concocted, and whose staff would go on to man the regulatory agencies that put their wool-headed ideas into practice.

    And to whom do the corporations turn when they find themselves on the receiving end of all this uplift, all this do-goodery, all this progress, hope, and change? Why, to the man in the red Prada loafers, and to his flamboyantly patterned wife.

    Read the whole thing and you can be sickened even further but also receive a sense of schadenfreude at the end. But a sense only: there are plenty more Podestas where they came from.

    I’ve reached the point where I don’t know how this can actually be changed, given that there seems to be no natural limit to the growth of the State other than bankruptcy. And in the case of the USA even that’s something that probably cannot happen, given that they are the holder of the worlds reserve currency.

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  130. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    How do Buddhists get around it Ryan?

    Depends. There are lots of different schools of Buddhist philosophy.

    But if you go right back to the Buddha, he was asked a question like that – does God exist, I think, or maybe is the soul immortal. He replied with a story:

    A guy’s walking through the forest and is shot by a poisoned arrow, which will kill him if it is not removed.

    His friends find him and say, “We’ve got to get that arrow out of you!”

    He replies, “Wait! Before you pull it out, tell me, was the person who shot me a noble or a peasant? What kind of wood is the arrow? What bird’s feathers were used for the fletching? What animal’s gut was used for the bowstring?” And so on.

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  131. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    Is it just the Dems thriving from these trends, tom?

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  132. Scott Chris (5,880 comments) says:

    I suspect you misunderstand what alchemy is.

    Ryan, perhaps you misinterpreted my flippancy:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies

    Newton also suffered a nervous breakdown during his period of alchemical work, which is thought by some to have resulted from the psychological transformation alchemy was originally designed to induce, though there is also speculation that it may have been some form of chemical poisoning (possibly from mercury, lead, or some other substance).

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  133. SGA (813 comments) says:

    ciaron at 12:24 pm
    You might be interested in this -
    http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.co.nz/2007/10/leibnizian-cosmological-argument-part-i.html
    I pretty sure that I follow the gist of it, but not well enough to put into my own words.

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  134. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Ryan, perhaps you misinterpreted my flippancy:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies

    Sorry, I thought you were saying that he started trying to turn lead into gold, as opposed to alchemy as a spiritual practice.

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  135. Rich Prick (1,553 comments) says:

    Does anyone else think UT is a little weird, mini-nukes ‘an all?

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  136. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Does anyone else think UT is a little weird, mini-nukes ‘an all?

    Nope, just you.

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  137. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    Ugly is definitely weird. He believes in a wide range of out there things. It’s quite entertaining to read though.

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  138. ciaron (1,315 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull (6,621 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 12:35 pm
    Does that include an explanation for God? If not then the assumption/premise is flawed.

    Theists get around that by defining God as “The Exception To The Rule”. Like, repeatedly.

    No, God exists necessarily as stated in premise 1, and is not “excepted”.

    as William Lane Craig puts it:
    at first blush premise 1 might seem vulnerable in an obvious way. If everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, and |God exists, then God must have an explanation of his existence. But that seems out of the question, for then the explanation of God’s existence would become some other being greater than God. Since that’s impossible, premise 1 must be false. Some things must be able to exist without any explanation. the believer will say God exists inexplicably. The atheist will say, “why not stop at the universe? the universe just exists inexplicably.” So we seem to reach a stalemate.

    Not so fast! This obvious objection to premise 1 is based on a misunderstanding of what Leibniz meant by “explanation.” In Leibniz’s view there are two kinds of things: (a) things that exist necessarily and (b) things that are produced by some external cause. Let me explain.

    (a) things that exist necessarily exist by necessity of their own nature. It’s impossible for them not to exist. Many mathematicians think that number sets, and other mathematical entities exist in this way. they’re not caused to exist by something else; they just exist by the necessity of their own nature.

    (b)By contrast, things that are caused to exist by something else don’t exist necessarily. They exist because something else has produced them Familiar physical objects like people,planets, and galaxies belong in this category.

    So when Leibniz says that everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, the explanation may be found either in the necessity of a thing’s nature or else in some external cause…

    …But now the objection falls to the ground. The explanation of God’s existence lies in the necessity of his own nature. As even the atheist recognizes, it’s impossible for God to have a cause. so Leibniz’s argument is really an argument for for God as a necessary, uncaused being. Far from undermining Leibniz’s argument, the atheists objection to premise 1 actually helps to clarify and magnify who God is! If God exists, he is a necessarily existing, uncaused being.

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  139. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    And in the case of the USA even that’s something that probably cannot happen, given that they are the holder of the worlds reserve currency.

    I wouldn’t count on it.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-23/russia-returns-favor-sees-chinese-yuan-world-reserve-currency

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  140. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The Democrats Republican dynamic does not work in New Zealand.

    What tom is talking about is another dimension of crony capitalism.

    It costs so much money to run for president.
    Responsibility to financial friends and favour and behind the scene trade-off to high impact well-funded special interest lobbying is inherent in large government.

    Would the states be better of with less centralized power then that of a Federation presidental rubublic

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  141. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    Ugly is definitely weird. He believes in a wide range of out there things. It’s quite entertaining to read though.

    But nothing that you can effectively rebut, eh mikenmild?

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  142. kowtow (7,631 comments) says:

    elaycee

    You are not alone.And the media coverage of the trial and his dreadful acting is out of all proportion (Boko Haram outrages CAR outrages French neo colonialism in Mali etc)

    Pistorius, for all his acting does not deserve an Oscar .

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  143. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    The West must not blame itself for Putin’s revanchism:

    “In Singapore last week, several prominent figures told me Southeast Asia is managing better the challenge of a resurgent China than Europe is a re-assertive Russia. But this is a misleading comparison. China and Russia present entirely different propositions to their neighbors.

    President Xi Jinping recognizes the logic of win-win international politics. Whilst tightening his political control, he has overseen what is perhaps China’s most ambitious strategy for market-led socio-economic reform since the Deng Xiaoping era, and launched an all-out assault on the rampant levels of corruption in the Chinese Communist Party.

    The contrast between this approach and that of President Putin could not be starker. Putin appears to see the world through a unique prism of winner takes all and loser loses everything. He represents a 19th century “law of the jungle” mentality, in the words of Angela Merkel. This makes Russia an altogether more dangerous neighbor.”

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/12/opinion/ukraine-putin-niblett/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

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  144. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    No, God exists necessarily as stated in premise 1, and is not “excepted”.

    as William Lane Craig puts it:
    at first blush premise 1 might seem vulnerable in an obvious way. If everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, and |God exists, then God must have an explanation of his existence. But that seems out of the question, for then the explanation of God’s existence would become some other being greater than God. Since that’s impossible, premise 1 must be false. Some things must be able to exist without any explanation. the believer will say God exists inexplicably. The atheist will say, “why not stop at the universe? the universe just exists inexplicably.” So we seem to reach a stalemate.

    Not so fast! This obvious objection to premise 1 is based on a misunderstanding of what Leibniz meant by “explanation.” In Leibniz’s view there are two kinds of things: (a) things that exist necessarily and (b) things that are produced by some external cause. Let me explain.

    (a) things that exist necessarily exist by necessity of their own nature. It’s impossible for them not to exist. Many mathematicians think that number sets, and other mathematical entities exist in this way. they’re not caused to exist by something else; they just exist by the necessity of their own nature.

    (b)By contrast, things that are caused to exist by something else don’t exist necessarily. They exist because something else has produced them Familiar physical objects like people,planets, and galaxies belong in this category.

    So when Leibniz says that everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, the explanation may be found either in the necessity of a thing’s nature or else in some external cause…

    …But now the objection falls to the ground. The explanation of God’s existence lies in the necessity of his own nature. As even the atheist recognizes, it’s impossible for God to have a cause. so Leibniz’s argument is really an argument for for God as a necessary, uncaused being. Far from undermining Leibniz’s argument, the atheists objection to premise 1 actually helps to clarify and magnify who God is! If God exists, he is a necessarily existing, uncaused being.

    Yeah, exactly. They define God as “a necessarily existing thing” and then say, “Oh, everything that’s not defined as a necessarily existing thing needs a cause. Oh, gosh, look! That’s everything except for God!”

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  145. dime (9,435 comments) says:

    it cracks me up when the left talk about donations. especially in the US.

    which president has received the most money from wall street?

    ill give you a clue.

    the same one who pumps a good 50 billion into wall street a month. the same one who left them all off the hook for all the fucked up shit they did. how many went to jail again?

    Tarp was 700 billion?

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  146. iMP (2,245 comments) says:

    1:15pm. Whaleoil has vanished. Is it just me? Not that i was in there looking David.

    Gone altogether from “History,” ID sign gone in “Popular”

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  147. dime (9,435 comments) says:

    Bruv – your constant anti-religion shit is as annoying as andrei’s pro-religion shit and griffs fanatical support of his green church.

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  148. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    ciaron (1,150 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 9:26 am

    2) if the universe has an explanation of it’s existence, that explanation is God.

    5) therefore, the explanation of the existence of the universe is God. (follows from 2 & 4)

    5 doesn’t follow from 2, it simply restates it. No case appears to be made why the universe cannot also exist by “necessity of its nature” without requiring an external agent.

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  149. iMP (2,245 comments) says:

    BONO is a christian. Issue settled because Cool and Celebrity is everything.

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  150. kowtow (7,631 comments) says:

    Is big bruv clint heine?

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  151. johnwellingtonwells (121 comments) says:

    Silent T now wants to ban heavy vehicles from using the outside lines of motorways. He hasn’t a hope in a hell. I have a lead balloon for sale

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  152. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “No case appears to be made why the universe cannot also exist by “necessity of its nature” without requiring an external agent.”

    Leaving religion/God out of it for a moment, isn’t there a finite amount of energy in the universe? This would seem to suggest the need for an external cause, even if that external cause was another previously existing universe. Something that is finite cannot exist by necessity of it’s own nature.

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  153. tom hunter (4,417 comments) says:

    Is it just the Dems thriving from these trends, tom?

    You know as well as I do that the GOP are troughing on this – probably less at the moment since they control only the House.

    But the motive force that enables all this shit is the mainstream Left who constantly demand more government policies, programmes, rules, regulations, institutions. The fact that I get people like Mr Compassionate Conservative who either do not or cannot fight against growing government is an added bonus for you. They’re the enablers.

    But the pushers are on your side of the ideological fence mikenmild. I have to cope with cynical hypocrites, not believers.

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  154. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    There is not a finite amount of universe.

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  155. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “There is not a finite amount of universe.”

    The evidence would seem to suggest otherwise Griff, at least as far as this particular universe is concerned.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3352360/Scientists-glimpse-dark-flow-lurking-beyond-the-edge-of-the-universe.html

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  156. wreck1080 (3,731 comments) says:

    i like labours idea to ban trucks from the fast lane.

    Sick of them hogging the fast lanes when they are supposed to only go 90!!!

    Although, labour are never going to win an election on policies like this as they just lost the truck driver vote — whom you’d think would be labour supporters in general.

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  157. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    Bruv – your constant anti-religion shit is as annoying as andrei’s pro-religion shit and griffs fanatical support of his green church.

    I had trouble hitting the “like” button because I was laughing so much.

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  158. Psycho Milt (2,265 comments) says:

    This one’s for milt. (carried over from yesterday)

    1) everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of it’s own nature or in an external cause.

    2) if the universe has an explanation of it’s existence, that explanation is God. (logically equivalent of the statement: if God does not exist, the universe has no explanation).

    3) the universe exists.

    4) therefore, the universe has an explanation of it’s existence. (follows from 1 & 3)

    5) therefore, the explanation of the existence of the universe is God. (follows from 2 & 4)

    Unfortunately, the term ‘God’ in this logical sequence is simply a placeholder word for “something capable of bringing the universe into existence.” In my comment yesterday, I used the placeholder word “wibble” for it. In the logic statement above, “God” and “wibble” are equally useful as placeholders for the unknown.

    In that sense, Leibniz’s argument is fine: the universe exists, something must have caused it to exist, we don’t know what that something is. However, if you want to treat the word “God” in there as something other than a placeholder equivalent to “wibble” or any other random word you want to use, and instead treat it as a word actually describing a known quantity, the logic falls to bits immediately.

    Try it for yourself using some other postulation for the universe’s existence:

    1) everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of it’s own nature or in an external cause.

    2) if the universe has an explanation of it’s existence, that explanation is a massive computer simulation run by inconceivably large and complex alien entities. (logically equivalent of the statement: if the massive computer simulation run by inconceivably large and complex alien entities does not exist, the universe has no explanation).

    3) the universe exists.

    4) therefore, the universe has an explanation of it’s existence. (follows from 1 & 3)

    5) therefore, the explanation of the existence of the universe is a massive computer simulation run by inconceivably large and complex alien entities. (follows from 2 & 4).

    In other words, if you try to use something other than a placeholder word for “something capable of bringing the universe into existence,” the wheels fall off at step 2.

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  159. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Leaving religion/God out of it for a moment, isn’t there a finite amount of energy in the universe? This would seem to suggest the need for an external cause, even if that external cause was another previously existing universe.

    Could be, yep. We know that a pot of boiling water needed external energy to get it going. If the universe is like a pot of boiling water in this regard, then it needed an external cause.

    But the universe is big and weird and may not be like a pot of boiling water at all. The very notion of “external” implies a division between one thing and another, and if “the universe” is “all that is”, the notion of externality is inapplicable to it.

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  160. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Your definition of universe is not nuanced enough for my statement.

    http://cs.astronomy.com/asy/news/f/20/t/28423.aspx

    It would be defined as a singularity: a point with zero radius. The Singularity in Big Bang theory is that singularity from which all matter and energy we know about today sprang in the initial expansion. So that singularity would have been a point with zero radius and infinite density (assuming that the Universe we know today is all that there is and that it has no end…no upper limit on mass and energy).

    If you apply the laws of thermodynamics to the Universe as a “closed system” then it cannot be infinite, according to Big Bang theory.

    If you could rewind the Universe back to t=0 you’d be at The Singularity again. Among other problems with this scenario, there is a Time paradox. When I said rewind, I didn’t mean run backwards in time, I meant collapse the Universe (reverse the expansion). As you collapse the Universe, you’re still running forward in time.

    If space and time are interrelated as Einstein suggested, then there is no paradox: when space ceases to exist so does time. However, the way we humans experience time we could postulate that after the total contraction there might be another instant … and how would we talk about that? This is one of the attractions of the Big Bounce idea … it makes it possible to talk about “before” and “after” …

    http://www.space.com/25100-multiverse-cosmic-inflation-gravitational-waves.html
    The first direct evidence of cosmic inflation — a period of rapid expansion that occurred a fraction of a second after the Big Bang — also supports the idea that our universe is just one of many out there, some researchers say.

    On Monday (March 17), scientists announced new findings that mark the first-ever direct evidence of primordial gravitational waves — ripples in space-time created just after the universe began. If the results are confirmed, they would provide smoking-gun evidence that space-time expanded at many times the speed of light just after the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago.

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  161. ciaron (1,315 comments) says:

    Weihana (4,451 comments) says: 5 doesn’t follow from 2, it simply restates it. No case appears to be made why the universe cannot also exist by “necessity of its nature” without requiring an external agent.

    Dr. William Lane Craig responds t that point:
    Look about the universe, none of the things that make it up, whether stars, planets, dust, radiation, or what have you seems to exist necessarily. They could all fail to exist; indeed,at some point in the past when the universe was very dense,none of them did exist.
    But, someone might say, what about the matter that these things are made of? Maybe the matter exists necessarily, and all these things are just different configurations of matter.
    The problem with this suggestion is that, according to the standard model of subatomic physics, matter itself is composed of tiny fundamental particles that cannot be further broken down. The universe is just a collection of all these particles arranged in different ways. But now the question arises: Couldn’t a different collection of fundamental particles have existed instead of this one? Does each and every one of these particles exist necessarily?…..
    … Now it seems obvious that a different collection of fundamental particles could have existed instead of the collection that does exist. But if that were the case, then a different universe would have existed.

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  162. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “But the universe is big and weird”

    Yup. This is from the link I posted above.

    “A survey of hundreds of moving galaxy clusters, each of which contains hundreds of millions of stars, shows that they are defying expectations by moving at roughly two million miles per hour towards a particular location that may lie beyond the horizon of our observable universe.

    The universe is approximately 14 billion years old and the “cosmological horizon” is defined by the distance from where the light emitted at the moment of the big bang reaches us today – roughly 14 billion light years.

    The spot is a patch of sky between the constellations of Centaurus and Vela and the strange finding flies in the face of the current theories of the universe which would predict such motions as decreasing at ever greater distances.

    There are already two giant cosmic mysteries, sources of hard-to-account for anti-gravity and gravity, called dark energy and dark matter, respectively, which are ubiquitous in the universe.

    In honour of this, and because the flow cannot be accounted for by the observed distribution of matter in the universe, the Nasa team that found the cosmic drift calls it “dark flow”.

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  163. ciaron (1,315 comments) says:

    But the problem, Milt, is that there is no “placeholder”. God is a defined entity. You may not like it or agree with it, but God and “Wibble” are not identical.

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  164. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    No case appears to be made why the universe cannot also exist by “necessity of its nature” without requiring an external agent.

    One argument is based on the improbability of a internally consistent consciousness based system, i.e. non-evolutionary language, referencing a creative essence and/or agent.

    If there is evidence of a creative agent that does not depend on faith, then the idea of a creative agency moves from the realm of religion to the realm of rational thought.

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  165. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    So we’re all becoming Philosophical Astro-physicists are we? :-)

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  166. Judith (7,626 comments) says:

    mikenmild (8,677 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 12:59 pm
    Ugly is definitely weird. He believes in a wide range of out there things. It’s quite entertaining to read though.

    Just about all the most famous artists, scientists, philosophers, and other such people, who are now acclaimed for doing ‘great things’ were considered weird by their peers and community.

    Never underestimate the power of the ‘weird’ to be the ones that actually contribute most to our world.

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  167. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,750 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    Leaving religion/God out of it for a moment, isn’t there a finite amount of energy in the universe? This would seem to suggest the need for an external cause, even if that external cause was another previously existing universe. Something that is finite cannot exist by necessity of it’s own nature.

    Except that the universe may not have any net energy at all. The sum of all energy in the universe may be exactly zero. We have positive energy in the form of matter but it requires positive energy to seperate mass against the force of gravity, meaning that gravity is a negative form of energy and exists as a necessary consequence of the existence of matter. All the matter in the universe may be entirely and exactly cancelled out by all the gravity in the universe producing a net energy of zero.

    Moreover, quantum uncertainty means that particles can spontaneously come into existence which would provide the mechanism by which the universe spontaneously came into existence in a vacuum starting the chain of events that has produced the universe that we observe.

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  168. Judith (7,626 comments) says:

    So we’re all becoming Philosophical Astro-physicists are we?

    No, I’m not. Someone has to stay normal enough to cook dinner! Besides I can’t even say those words without getting tongue tied.

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  169. publicwatchdog (2,107 comments) says:

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/ask-don-brash

    My question to Don Brash (not yet published).

    Do you think it was ‘incredible luck’, or it was your political connections that helped to ensure that ‘one law for all’ did not apply to yourself or John Banks as former fellow Directors of Huljich Wealth Management (NZ ) Ltd, and you were never charged or prosecuted for signing Registered Prospectuses which contained misleading information?

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/1OfbKNxoyZgDs1gZtA1zJLTYAl7sqjYDZgKrIXdUU21S2WRG2D7quY_VyXOKA/edit?pli=1

    Penny Bright

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  170. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    I get what your saying Weihana. My question is that the theory that the universe spontaneously came into being relies on quantum fluctuations in the vacuum. That seems to to just leave us where we started in terms of the question, because it still seems to assume something was there to begin with.

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  171. stephieboy (2,183 comments) says:

    Rational wiki comes to our aid and assists us in understanding why Conspiracy bubble heads like Ugly Truth are attracted to the Conspiratorial Austrian School, ultra Libertarian international fiance and investment Zero Hedge,

    Z”ero Hedge[ is a batshit insane Austrian economics-based finance blog run by a pseudonymous founder who posts articles under the name “Tyler Durden,” after Chuck Palahniuk’s Fight Club personality.
    Tyler claims to be a “believer in a sweeping conspiracy that casts the alumni of Goldman Sachs as a powerful cabal at the helm of U.S. policy, with the Treasury and the Federal Reserve colluding to preserve the status quo.” While this is not an entirely unreasonable statement of the problem, his solution actually mirrors the anatagonist in Fight Club in that Tyler wants, per Austrian school ideas, to lead a catastrophic market crash in order to destroy banking institutions and bring back “real” free market capitalism”

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge

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  172. Elaycee (4,301 comments) says:

    My question….. …..(not yet published).

    Haha….. is this the NBR default setting? :lol:

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  173. ciaron (1,315 comments) says:

    Weihana (4,452 comments) says:….
    Moreover, quantum uncertainty means that particles can spontaneously come into existence which would provide the mechanism by which the universe spontaneously came into existence in a vacuum starting the chain of events that has produced the universe that we observe.

    Dr. Craig has addressed this also, namely that the Vacuum (In Sam Harris’ argument) is not “nothing”, but I’m having a little difficulty in finding it.

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  174. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Formed Spontaneously From Nothing: “But that still leaves a huge puzzle. What caused the Big Bang itself? For many years, cosmologists have relied on the idea that the universe formed spontaneously, that the Big Bang was the result of quantum fluctuations in which the Universe came into existence from nothing.”

    https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/ed7ed0f304a3

    Yeah, I’m not convinced that quantum fluctuations in the vacuum are nothing. That seems, at first glance at least, to be a contradiction.

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  175. Judith (7,626 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (1,753 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 2:25 pm

    “O Deep Thought computer,” he said, “the task we have designed you to perform is this. We want you to tell us….” he paused, “The Answer.”
    “The Answer?” said Deep Thought. “The Answer to what?”
    “Life!” urged Fook.
    “The Universe!” said Lunkwill.
    “Everything!” they said in chorus.
    Deep Thought paused for a moment’s reflection.
    “Tricky,” he said finally.
    “But can you do it?”
    Again, a significant pause.
    “Yes,” said Deep Thought, “I can do it.”
    “There is an answer?” said Fook with breathless excitement.
    “Yes,” said Deep Thought. “Life, the Universe, and Everything. There is an answer. But, I’ll have to think about it.”

    **** 42 ****

    (There, argument over!) ;-)

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  176. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    Z”ero Hedge[ is a batshit insane ….

    While this is not an entirely unreasonable statement of the problem, his solution …

    Rational much, rationalwiki?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2014-04-14/did-department-homeland-security-just-admit-government-knew-about-heartbleed-

    I’m honestly not sure which would be worse. That the NSA knew about this massive bug that threatened havoc for millions of Americans and did nothing about it for two years. Or that the NSA’s vaunted—and lavishly funded—cybersecurity team was completely in the dark about a gaping and highly-exploitable hole in the operational security of the internet for two years. It’s frankly hard to see any way the NSA comes out of this episode looking good.

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  177. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    stephieboy.
    2.15 pm.

    “Tyler Durden”

    Are you sure his name isn’t Dyler Turden – Dial a turd in. ;-)

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  178. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,753 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 2:25 pm

    Yeah, I’m not convinced that quantum fluctuations in the vacuum are nothing. That seems, at first glance at least, to be a contradiction.

    But even if a quantum vacuum constitutes “something” it would still appear to be infinite and exist by necessity of its nature.

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  179. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    If prior to the big bang, their was a formless vacuum /void, there is nothing there to start with – nothing. There is no way, without a first cause, could anything happen.
    Quantum physics? pure theoretical bullshit. It defies the basic laws of physics.

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  180. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Quite possibly Weihana, though an infinite universe raises just as many philosophical questions as a finite one, not the least of which is why is anything here at all.

    And while I know from past conversations that you will disagree, there are aspects of human nature which also raise such questions.

    But all of this is interesting but largely irrelevant to me personally.

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  181. stephieboy (2,183 comments) says:

    Meanwhile UT you can usefully occupy yourself answering these vital and crucial 55 questions and then report back here tomorrow,

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-11/55-things-about-america-you-may-not-know

    and this will help to stoke up the flames of your Paranoia,

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/end-nigh-rockefellers-and-rothschilds-merge

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  182. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “If prior to the big bang, their was a formless vacuum /void:

    Heh, can’t resist, the comparison was just begging.

    “Now the world was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering”

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  183. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi (1,315 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 3:02 pm

    Quantum physics? pure theoretical bullshit. It defies the basic laws of physics.

    Quantum electrodynamics is probably the most precise and accurate physical theory in the history of science.

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  184. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    Quantum physics? pure theoretical bullshit. It defies the basic laws of physics.

    The “laws of physics” are only numbers that describe something that already exists. If the thing itself does not exist, neither do the laws that describe it. The laws aren’t an actual physical ‘thing’. They only mathematically describe something that is there.

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  185. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,755 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 3:02 pm

    Quite possibly Weihana, though an infinite universe raises just as many philosophical questions as a finite one, not the least of which is why is anything here at all.

    Which is the same question that arises with “God”. But in both cases the definition is given as something that exists “by necessity of its nature”. Thus the answer is at least assumed to be given by the very nature of the thing in question.

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  186. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “Quantum physics? pure theoretical bullshit. It defies the basic laws of physics.”

    Yeah I don’t remotely agree with that.

    Nobody else will like them, but if your Christian you might want to try these:

    ‘The Physics of Immortality: Modern Cosmology, God and the Resurrection of the Dead’

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Physics-Immortality-Cosmology-Resurrection/dp/0385467990

    ‘The Physics of Christianity’

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Physics-Christianity-Frank-Tipler/dp/B003D7JZC6

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  187. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,755 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 3:02 pm

    And while I know from past conversations that you will disagree, there are aspects of human nature which also raise such questions.

    Maybe… I think human nature is full of interesting questions! :)

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  188. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    You misunderstand what I’m saying ShawnLH

    hint: “first cause”…..

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  189. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    ” Thus the answer is at least assumed to be given by the very nature of the thing in question.”

    Sure, that’s a given.

    Personally I don’t really like the kind of apologetics used by William Lane Craig. I think he overstates his case, but more importantly for me at least, there is wonder and mystery in my experience of being Christian that I don’t want boiled down to a series of purely rationalist propositions. That would be just plain boring, and there is nothing boring about the mystery of life.

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  190. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Fletch (5,707 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 3:15 pm

    The “laws of physics” are only numbers…

    One might say “His penis is 14 inches long!”. 14 is just a number but the statement relates that number to something about reality which may or may not be wishful thinking. Similarly the laws of physics are not just numbers but quantifiable and (usually) measureable relationships between observables.

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  191. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,757 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 3:24 pm

    ” Thus the answer is at least assumed to be given by the very nature of the thing in question.”

    Sure, that’s a given.

    Personally I don’t really like the kind of apologetics used by William Lane Craig. I think he overstates his case, but more importantly for me at least, there is wonder and mystery in my experience of being Christian that I don’t want boiled down to a series of purely rationalist propositions.

    A common sentiment it seems. Though personally I find rational and scientific insights to be among the most spiritual experiences I know of.

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  192. kowtow (7,631 comments) says:

    Talking of the news and what they chose to report,Radio Aotearoa formerly New Zealand report that Mayor Cull Dunedin progressive says there will be 5 years of commemorations to include all those affected by the war……

    …….including the protesters…….

    ……I note also that TVNZ will soon be running a show about field punishment number 1……..

    I won’t be commemorating protesters. The men who were scared and shattered that’s another matter,but the vast majority did their duty.

    How about commemorating the fucken prohibitionists who wanted to ban booze? Fuck ‘em.

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  193. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    You can’t produce x amount of stuff from nothing – as what’s produced would have to be infinite – to match the amount of nothing that you had to begin with.

    It would then appear that the big bang theory produced fuck all . :cool:

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  194. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “The big bang opinion appears to be total bullshit to me.”

    I don’t think it’s just opinion, but more importantly I don’t see any contradiction between Christian theology and the big bang anyway.

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  195. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    I get what your saying Weihana. My question is that the theory that the universe spontaneously came into being relies on quantum fluctuations in the vacuum. That seems to to just leave us where we started in terms of the question, because it still seems to assume something was there to begin with.

    That’s just one possible explanation.

    Also, I refer to my above comments about “external to the universe” being a nonsensical collection of words – if the universe is all of space-time, “prior to the universe” and “after the universe” are also meaningless concepts. And “to begin with”.

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  196. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    ” if the universe is all of space-time, “prior to the universe” and “after the universe” are also meaningless concepts. And “to begin with”.

    External would mean external to space-time. So I’m not sure that follows Ryan.

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  197. Psycho Milt (2,265 comments) says:

    But the problem, Milt, is that there is no “placeholder”. God is a defined entity. You may not like it or agree with it, but God and “Wibble” are not identical.

    In that case, we’re assuming the existence of God in an argument that’s put forward as proof that God exists. That logical fallacy is called “begging the question.”

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  198. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    External would mean external to space-time. So I’m not sure that follows Ryan.

    That’s what I mean. “External to space-time” is unintelligible if our entire concept of internality/externality is within the context of space-time. There’s no “outside space” and there’s no “before time”, because “outside” and “before” are spacially or temporally loaded terms that require space-time as a context for them to have meaning.

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  199. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    In that case, we’re assuming the existence of God in an argument that’s put forward as proof that God exists. That logical fallacy is called “begging the question.”

    Yes, it’s a bit like saying, “Okay, we all agree that God exists, right? Okay, having agreed that, we can now proceed to proving it.”

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  200. ciaron (1,315 comments) says:

    Also, I refer to my above comments about “external to the universe” being a nonsensical collection of words – if the universe is all of space-time, “prior to the universe” and “after the universe” are also meaningless concepts. And “to begin with”.

    Well, of course you would think that. You’re trying to apply space-time to an entity that is independent of it!

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  201. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Well, of course you would think that. You’re trying to apply space-time to an entity that is independent of it!

    I’m applying intelligibility to things that are intelligible. If there is anything that interacts in a meaningful way with the contents of the context of space-time, then it is either unintelligible and therefore irrelevant, or it is intelligible and therefore will conform to intelligibility.

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  202. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Ah I see what you mean Ryan. I think. :)

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  203. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    Could someone please answer the question:

    If nothing produces something, then how come we end up with less in the universe than the amount of nothing that we started with – which is what the big bang theory has given us.

    Or is there a mathmatical equation that says nothing produces x amount of stuff?

    In other words – there has to be a mathmatical ratio between something from nothing -or- between something and nothing, to further prove the big bang theory.

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  204. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    If nothing produces something, then how come we end up with less in the universe than the amount of nothing that we started with – which is what the big bang theory has given us.

    It may be more helpful to think of it as “neither nothing nor something produces both nothingness and somethingness”.

    It may be more helpful.

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  205. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “There exists only the present instant… a Now which always and without end is itself new. There is no yesterday nor any tomorrow, but only Now, as it was a thousand years ago and as it will be a thousand years hence. The knower and the known are one. Simple people imagine that they should see God as if he stood there and they here. This is not so. God and I, we are one. The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me.”

    Meister Eckhart

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  206. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    “…….It may be more helpful to think of it as “neither nothing nor something produces both nothingness and somethingness”.

    It may be more helpful….”

    Yeah but Ryan that then means the addition of ‘something else’ into the equation – and no scientist is offering anything at all – when pressed.

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  207. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Thorium reactors
    Asgard’s fire
    Thorium, an element named after the Norse god of thunder, may soon contribute to the world’s electricity supply
    http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21600656-thorium-element-named-after-norse-god-thunder-may-soon-contribute?fsrc=nlw|hig|4-10-2014|8283453|38473551|NA

    The Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research already runs a small research reactor in Kalpakkam, Tamil Nadu, and the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre in Mumbai plans to follow this up with a thorium-powered heavy-water reactor that will, it hopes, be ready early next decade.

    China’s thorium programme looks bigger. The Chinese Academy of Sciences claims the country now has “the world’s largest national effort on thorium”, employing a team of 430 scientists and engineers, a number planned to rise to 750 by 2015. This team, moreover, is headed by Jiang Mianheng, an engineering graduate of Drexel University in the United States who is the son of China’s former leader, Jiang Zemin (himself an engineer). Some may question whether Mr Jiang got his job strictly on merit. His appointment, though, does suggest the project has political clout. The team plan to fire up a prototype thorium reactor in 2015. Like India’s, this will use solid fuel. But by 2017 the Shanghai Institute of Applied Physics expects to have one that uses a trickier but better fuel, molten thorium fluoride.

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  208. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Yeah but Ryan that then means the addition of ‘something else’ into the equation – and no scientist is offering anything at all – when pressed.

    It’s not “something else”, though. Frankly, it was a mistake to use the term “produces” in the first place – an event which presupposes an before and after, which presupposes time, which has meaning only within the context of time.

    And be careful with Meister Eckhart. It was a sentence from him that turned me into an atheist. Or, at least, a not-theist.

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  209. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “And be careful with Meister Eckhart. It was a sentence from him that turned me into an atheist. Or, at least, a not-theist.”

    Iv’e been reading Eckhart for years. Which sentence?

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  210. publicwatchdog (2,107 comments) says:

    FYI Kiwibloggers – this is rather politically significant given that the Committee for Auckland is like a HERD of mammoth elephants in the room, that apparently hardly anyone dare mention??

    THE COMMITTEE FOR AUCKLAND HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED MY PRIVACY ACT REQUEST.
    THIS SHOULD NOW GET VERY INTERESTING ………..

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    9 April 2014

    To whomever is responsible for handling PRIVACY ACT requests for the Committee for Auckland

    On 20 February 2014, I made a copy of the membership list of the Committee for Auckland, which included Auckland Council CEO, Stephen Town.

    The next day, the name of Auckland Council CEO Stephen Town, was removed from the Committee for Auckland membership list, which now still lists Auckland Council, and their website, but the name column is now blank:

    http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz/membership/member-organisations

    Auckland Council http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz

    Please provide all copies of information (including, but not limited to: emails, reports, letters, memos, diary notes, meeting minutes, text messages, telephone messages which contain my name, Penny Bright (Penelope Mary Bright), or make referral to me, in relation to the removal of Auckland Council CEO Stephen Town’s name from the Committee for Auckland membership list.

    Please be reminded that the Committee for Auckland is covered by the Privacy Act.

    I look forward to your prompt reply.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    Attendee Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference 2009
    Attendee Transparency International Anti-Corruption Conference 2010
    Attendee Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference 2013

    Auckland Mayoral candidate 2013 (polling 4th with 11,723 vote, campaigning against corrupt corporate control of the Auckland region)

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    11 April 2014

    ‘Admin’
    Committee for Auckland

    To whom it may concern

    Please be reminded that it it is ‘good business practice’ to acknowledge correspondence?

    I look forward to your prompt acknowledgement of this correspondence.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

    from: Committee for Auckland Administration admin@committeeforauckland.co.nz
    to: Penny Bright
    date: Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 2:13 PM

    subject: RE: ‘Open Letter / Privacy Act request’

    - When and why was Auckland Council CEO Stephen Town removed from the Committee for Auckland membership list?

    Dear Penny,

    Thank you for your email. Receipt of your correspondence is acknowledged.

    Regards,

    Committee for Auckland
    T: + 64 9 300 1234 | E: admin@committeeforauckland.co.nz
    Level 21, SAP Tower, 151 Queen Street, Auckland
    PO Box 3403, Shortland Street, Auckland 1140
    http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz

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  211. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Shush, Penny. Grown-ups talking.

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  212. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Penny, if you try a little harder you could make your posts even longer.

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  213. ciaron (1,315 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt (1,972 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 3:42 pm
    In that case, we’re assuming the existence of God in an argument that’s put forward as proof that God exists. That logical fallacy is called “begging the question.”

    I disagree, but feel free to drop Dr. Craig a line and tell him he’s begging the question. You’ll get a vastly more comprehensive answer than I can furnish you with.

    Ask Dr. Craig.

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  214. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Shawn,

    “What is truth? Truth is something so noble that if God could turn aside from it, I could keep to the truth and let God go.”

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  215. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    One might say “His penis is 14 inches long!”. 14 is just a number but the statement relates that number to something about reality which may or may not be wishful thinking. Similarly the laws of physics are not just numbers but quantifiable and (usually) measureable relationships between observables.

    Exactly, but before there was a universe and nothing existed, there was nothing for physics to describe. eg, there were no planetary bodies (or bodies of any kind), therefore there were no laws to describe the physics of acceleration, or gravity, or anything like that. I believe that the laws of physics and mathematics came into being the exact same time as the universe did, just as the recipe for a cake that hasn’t been made before comes into being the moment the cake is made and the recipe written down.

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  216. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Exactly, but before there was a universe

    Let me stop you right there.

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  217. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    And thus if the bible says something which is not true it cannot be word from God, or true word of God.

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  218. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Before there was a universe, or before there was “any” universe.

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  219. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “What is truth? Truth is something so noble that if God could turn aside from it, I could keep to the truth and let God go.”

    Right. Does not have the same effect with me.

    If it’s not already obvious my Christianity is less rationalist propositional (which is why I’m not a fan of William Craig and co) and more indebted to the mystics, Eckhart, John of the Cross, Evelyn Underhill and so forth.

    Because of that, and rather ironically, when I have been on fundamentalist sites I cop as much flak from them as I do from atheists.

    It’s a strange world. :)

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  220. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    http://www.space.com/25100-multiverse-cosmic-inflation-gravitational-waves.html
    The first direct evidence of cosmic inflation — a period of rapid expansion that occurred a fraction of a second after the Big Bang — also supports the idea that our universe is just one of many out there, some researchers say.

    On Monday (March 17), scientists announced new findings that mark the first-ever direct evidence of primordial gravitational waves — ripples in space-time created just after the universe began. If the results are confirmed, they would provide smoking-gun evidence that space-time expanded at many times the speed of light just after the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago.

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  221. ciaron (1,315 comments) says:

    God And time:

    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/god-time-and-eternity

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  222. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Right. Does not have the same effect with me.

    If it’s not already obvious my Christianity is less rationalist propositional (which is why I’m not a fan of William Craig and co) and more indebted to the mysitics, Eckhart, John of the Cross, Evelyn Underhill and so forth.

    Because of that, and rather ironically, when I have been on fundamentalist sites I cop as much flak from them as I do from atheists.

    It’s a strange world. :)

    Yes, the Ascent of Mt Carmel, Underhill’s “Mysticism”, the Practice of the Presence of God, the Philokalia, Thomas Merton, The Cloud of Unknowing, etc., were my bread and butter when I was Christian. It is an odd position to hold, and warms the ego to be immune to the usual attacks on Christianity, which are applicable to the more ignorant views of the common Christian masses. The benefit of first-hand experience of God protects its associated beliefs from intellectual assault.

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  223. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    First Christian book I ever read, not counting the Bible, was ‘The Seven Story Mountain’ by Merton.

    I have a strong interest in Jewish Kabbalah as well, which really gets the fundies upset.

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  224. hannity (151 comments) says:

    So Key has wimped out before the first hurdle

    Hes chickened out of debating the housing issue with Cunliffe on TV

    Mind you – hiding from the serious questions – has served him well thus far.

    Shame Key couldn’t back up his arrogant comments – just once

    Deep down he must know – hes finished

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  225. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    First Christian book I ever read, not counting the Bible, was ‘The Seven Story Mountain’ by Merton.

    That’s a good one. My favourites were “Seeds of Contemplation” and, for sheer clarity, “Contemplative Prayer”.

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  226. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    My wife introduced a contemplative prayer night at her church, mixing Taize, the Orthodox Jesus prayer and readings from the mystics. The younger people at church have really taken to it.

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  227. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Fletch (5,708 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 4:08 pm

    Exactly, but before there was a universe and nothing existed, there was nothing for physics to describe. eg, there were no planetary bodies (or bodies of any kind), therefore there were no laws to describe the physics of acceleration, or gravity, or anything like that. I believe that the laws of physics and mathematics came into being the exact same time as the universe did, just as the recipe for a cake that hasn’t been made before comes into being the moment the cake is made and the recipe written down.

    Depends I suppose. It would seem that if the “universe” exists as a consequence of quantum fluctuation then the quantum vacuum “exists” independent of the particular space-time that we inhabit. Some theorize that there are many universes all with different physical constants that give rise to different “physics”. This is an explanation for the apperance of a universe finely tuned for our existence. Although presumably some physical laws are more fundamental than others and perhaps exist in all possible universes.

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  228. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    If one confines our capacity for intelligibility to that within the existence of space time, then

    1. we cannot demonstrate reference anything preceding space time
    2. cannot rationalise/demonstrate the existence or otherwise of God as a Creator of creation – thus this must be a faith.
    3. can only understand a concept such as God in relation to some truth that exists and can be known within the universe (such as mortality)
    4. so only something related to God can be known within the universe as a means to intelligibility about God

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  229. Nookin (3,035 comments) says:

    Hannity

    Got a link for that?
    Here is the last report I read. Key wasn’t backing off then.

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  230. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    1. we cannot demonstrate reference anything preceding space time
    2. cannot rationalise/demonstrate the existence or otherwise of God as a Creator of creation – thus this must be a faith.
    3. can only understand a concept such as God in relation to some truth that exists and can be known within the universe (such as mortality)
    4. so only something related to God can be known within the universe as a means to intelligibility about God

    Nicely said, SPC. Very nicely said.

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  231. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Fletch,

    I suppose one other point I would make is in regards to your analogy to a recipe. What is it and when does it exist? Does it exist when one conceptualizes it? When it is written down? Or is it just the mere potential of some combination of things in some particular sequence? The potential for a particular combination in a particular sequence would seem to exist independent of whether it was conceptualized or written down.

    The point is that when we discover, say, special relativity do we then say Newton’s laws of motion were wrong? Or rather do we just give a broader context to newton’s laws and define the conditions in which those laws apply? Thus is it correct to say that the laws of physics begin to exist when the universe exists or rather does the existence of the universe simply identify the conditions in which the laws begin to apply?

    To return to the crass example I raised before: if it were true that one’s penis was 14 inches that may only be applicable when he is erect. But would that statement be untrue when he is soft? Even when soft it would be true to say he is 14 inches when erect.

    So to me it just appears to be an issue of establishing the applicable conditions under which some law is said to apply rather than the law coming into existence when the requisite conditions materialize. In other words the recipe exists already, even if we haven’t thought of it yet.

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  232. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Hannity, all I could find was Cunliffe not being in the House to question the PM today. So?

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  233. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    cannot rationalise/demonstrate the existence or otherwise of God as a Creator of creation – thus this must be a faith.

    The recognition of a language that did not evolve into existence does not depend on faith.

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  234. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    My wife introduced a contemplative prayer night at her church, mixing Taize, the Orthodox Jesus prayer and readings from the mystics. The younger people at church have really taken to it.

    They’re probably very eager for something they can sink their spiritual teeth into. I’ve never been a fan of modern evangelical Christianity’s MTVisation of religion as a response to uninterested youth. It works, if your success is measured in terms of numbers turning up on a Sunday or to youth groups, etc., but it works in the same way that brand marketing works – those kids like Christianity in the same way that they like Nike or Red Bull.

    And their appreciation of it is on a similar level – what does being Christian say about me? how do I relate to fans of other brands? do I hashtag my brand when I tweet? who’s a famous brand ambassador for Christianity I can relate to or look up to?

    McSpirituality is not limited to the Secret, the Celestine Prophecy and Oprah. Modern evangelical Christianity is rife with it, and it shows. Turnover in those churches is high. Their relationship with religion becomes faddish, and passes just as quickly as any other fad.

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  235. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    What’s your point about the evolution of language, Ugly?

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  236. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    UT, is God, a language that did not evolve into existence?

    Sounds like you believe in there being a language of the word of God created to programme humanity and you call this God’s religion of the word/the religion of the word of God.

    Or in short you believe in revelation of God to you by men (already dead) who cannot be questioned.

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  237. stephieboy (2,183 comments) says:

    The idea that the universe just seemed to have happened.?
    Rather like say 9/11 Truth ,really makes perfect sense to me.!

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  238. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull
    you are a Buddhist
    are you involved in an organised Buddhist community or do you hold the philosophy independently?

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  239. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    you are a Buddhist
    are you involved in an organised Buddhist community or do you hold the philosophy independently?

    I sporadically attend a sitting group in Sydney and practise personally. I don’t have any particular allegiances, if that’s what you’re asking, but my flavour is Zen.

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  240. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    “………My wife introduced a contemplative prayer night at her church, mixing Taize, the Orthodox Jesus prayer and readings from the mystics. The younger people at church have really taken to it…..”

    They’re probably very eager for something they can sink their spiritual teeth into. I’ve never been a fan of modern evangelical Christianity’s MTVisation of religion as a response to uninterested youth. It works, if your success is measured in terms of numbers turning up on a Sunday or to youth groups, etc., but it works in the same way that brand marketing works – those kids like Christianity in the same way that they like Nike or Red Bull……….”

    ———————-

    I think what Shawn’s wife and those kids are doing is probably far different to the current state of things with Christian youth – although I don’t disagree with what you have said about it in general Ryan – but Shawn’s wife is hardly Oprah, and I then think the kids and her are likely to be involved at a far deeper personal level. None are there for show.

    “…….It is all the New Age and cultic ideology of self-improvement, mind over matter, self-help, and creative visualisation. Just think happy thoughts and say happy things and you will live a happy life. You will be happy, successful, rich, problem-free and living the good life.

    All of which is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught of course. He said we will be hated by the world, we will be persecuted, we will have troubles, and we will face constant opposition and hardship. And he said that the real disciple of his is one who denies himself, takes up his cross daily, and dies to self.

    The gospel of Oprah, Tolle, Osteen and others is all about ME. It is the Gospel of Self. Self is deified, worshipped, coddled, pampered, pandered to, and made the centre of the universe. It is an anti-God gospel actually, since it makes self the centre of all things, and the highest good in the universe.

    Thus Osteen writes best-sellers like Your Best Life Now and Become a Better You. And now Oprah is doing a national “The Life You Want” tour…..”

    ‘False shepards’ is what they were once called.

    http://billmuehlenberg.com/2014/04/07/bell-and-oprah-lovefest-no-surprises-here/

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  241. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    I don’t think that’s what Ryan was saying Harriet.

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  242. stephieboy (2,183 comments) says:

    And Fletch, Sarah Pallin is , of course ,not a false shepherd but Baracka Obama is.?

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  243. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Just a genuine question

    I find buddhism a palatable philosophy.

    http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot01.htm

    Carefully contemplating your own understanding of true in a bid to separate out illusion and attachment.

    We all make our own journey.

    Alchemist reminded me of the book

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Alchemist_%28novel%29

    A central character in my own journey of serendipity :lol:

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  244. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    UT, the word logos is used in the New Testament, it can be associated with word to please those who seek the refuge of knowledge via faith in the work of other men (established word of God tradition). But this is just another form of idolatry (albeit claimed to be of a higher form than the others – a bit like a henotheism in that written word of God religion would be the highest form of religious idolatry).

    But the word logos has a wider meaning. The ground on which one builds – Adam out of the earth. A premise that before creation there was Creator God.

    This leads to the term “emanation”. Thought preceding word, recipe before the cake etc. Word preceding the act of creation.

    One constructs a building on a base. Such as a tower of Babel (in ancient Sumer ancient cities were rebuilt on again and again until the site was a hill, this was a place which had existed for many generations). Ultimately a world view is built. Whether called Babylonian or the many books of the covenant nation (Tanakh).

    What survives a human generation, only what it passes onto its successors as an inheritance?

    What if a generation passed on faith in a Creator God that had possession the gift of eternal life (symbolised by some food on a tree) but that this was denied to mortal man. How does one reconcile the fact of mortality with a forbidden fruit that man may desire?

    If there is a world view built on this, is it men passing on belief in word of God books (idolatry of men) where this is connected to knowledge of law regulating the culture of society or of a religion in the here and now? So as to instruct descendants to not do harm to others, but only good, so that one is worthy before God?

    Where we bargain that, if we are good we will get reward from God, so we see an ultimate justice to life.

    Or without knowledge of this idolatry, is there independent of this some consciousness of a Creator God that which inspires to the knowledge of the good, as to truth and the righteous way.

    So that those of the Tanakh, and those not, can have common ground on which to build.

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  245. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    “….I don’t think that’s what Ryan was saying Harriet….”

    I took it Ryan was saying that a lot of young poeple are more or less ‘sold’ religion and appreciate it on the same level.

    I took it that your wife was far different and being more genuine than that – given that you have a sound knowledge of Christianty – and your wife isn’t money & fame hungry Oprah.

    Further, I wasn’t suggesting that the kids ‘take up their Cross everyday’ and not do anything else as Christians – as you said “….The younger people at church have really taken to it…” – I think the point is that on both sides of the equation, your wife, and the kids, are genuinely interested. Whereas Oprah and those who are ‘sold’ religion arn’t really interested.

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  246. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Oh sure, I get what your saying Harriet. But Ryan was distinguishing between my wife and the slicker styles of seeker sensitive churches. But point taken.

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  247. kowtow (7,631 comments) says:

    What does it say about law and order in this country if police officers are not prepared to appear in open court because of fear of the Mongrel Mob?

    http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=185489&fm=newsmain%2Cnrhl

    Methinks the Mob need to be brought down and eliminated.Not bowed to.

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  248. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    It is a slow cook night tonight – peppered sausages in a red wine sauce.
    We had sun today – I was really missing it. I even caved and bought a cheap dryer as my washing was damp for too long.
    Russia looks set to invade Ukraine any day now via their rebels that are in place in various cities.
    I have been studying math, as it’s simple as there’s only one answer. Very calming.
    Where is Kea? Her banning is over, and yet she has not reappeared? Is she waiting to be summoned.

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  249. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    No doubt you have a plan to bring down and eliminate the Mongrel Mod, kowtow. Do share.

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  250. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Why was Kea banned?

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  251. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    You would think a full moon might bring her out, Lucia.

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  252. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Kea’s suspension ran out on the 10th but he’s got to apply to DPF by email before he can get reinstated.

    29th at the earliest.

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  253. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    “No doubt you have a plan to bring down and eliminate the Mongrel Mod, kowtow. Do share.”

    One would hope it might involve guns and a shoot on sight policy.

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  254. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    So that’s how it works, Nasska. I’ve never been banned myself, so had no idea.

    Mike, looks like DPF on a mountain trumps full moon effects. A bit of irony there, given Kea’s supposed background.

    Shawn, there’s a thread from 2 months back whereby Kea is very offensive against people of religion. Not really anything too unusual, however maybe DPF was in a tough mood on the day. I think the post was on Pope Francis.

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  255. EAD (611 comments) says:

    Interesting, the Mainstream Media media has been telling me
    - “we are experiencing “stonking” growth
    - business confidence is at an all time high
    - the world economy is reaching “escape velocity”

    i.e. all things that are all subjective and can’t be measured. Some may even call it “propaganda”

    Then when I check I real financial website, I see some huge canaries in the coalmine:
    - The Baltic Dry index has collapsed for the 15th day in a row as something extreme is occurring in the cost of shipping dry bulk around the world http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-14/baltic-dry-drops-15th-day-lowest-9-months-back-below-1000
    - Huge stockpiles of raw materials are building up in China as the Yuan collapses. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-14/chinese-yuan-and-copper-tumbles-money-supply-growth-plunges-13-year-lows

    For once I hope the MSM is correct! Hedge accordingly.

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  256. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    Any other groups you want to target with death squads, big bruv?

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  257. publicwatchdog (2,107 comments) says:

    In my considered opinion, as an ‘anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’, Minister for Justice Judith Collins is CORRUPT and should be sacked FORTHWITH.

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/business/qoa/50HansQ_20140415_00000007/7-justice-minister%E2%80%94compliance-withcabinet-manual

    7. Justice, Minister—Compliance withCabinet Manual

    [Sitting date: 15 April 2014. Volume:698;Page:7. Text is subject to correction.]

    7. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) to the Minister of Justice: Does she maintain that it is not in the public interest to answer all questions regarding Oravida?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice) :I have never made that statement.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: How can she give that answer, when it is crystal clear that her pre-arranged meeting with a senior Chinese customs official at the height of the botulism scare was not just dinner with close personal friends but a serious conflict of interest that she and the Prime Minister are trying to cover up?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: I can make that statement because it is the truth.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: Well, if that is the case, why will she not give the name and position of the customs official, when she arranged to meet the customs official at the very time that her husband’s company was having huge issues getting its product through customs and had enlisted her willing intervention?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: The member is quite wrong in his question. If he goes back and looks at previous questions he has asked of that nature, he will see that I have corrected him.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: Is it not the case that, when she was told that joining her and her close personal friends at the dinner was a senior customs official, it did not raise alarm bells, because meeting this customs official was the whole reason for the dinner in the first place?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: The member is quite wrong. I have never said that there was any senior customs official, and he knows it.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: Why is the Minister now claiming that there is no connection with the senior customs official, and does she not understand that her arranged meeting with that official was a serious conflict of interest and a corrupt abuse of her Cabinet position?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: No. The member is quite wrong again. He continues to state in his question matters that are incorrect. I would say to that member that if he is worrying about corruption, I think he should consider a member of Parliament who asks questions in this House and written questions to help his girlfriend in her position with a major global company.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: Does the Minister not understand that throwing out those sorts of allegations will not save her when she was moonlighting for her husband’s company, that her DNA is all over this issue, and that if she answers questions fully, she would no longer get the Prime Minister’s defence and would be sacked for corruption?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: The only member of this House who should be sacked for corruption is that member who has asked the question.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]

    Mr SPEAKER: Order! This is a point of order. It will be heard in silence.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: That Minister is not within the Standing Orders attempting to answer that question that way. She has been asked a serious question on a very serious matter—as serious as this House has ever seen—and she is seeking now to deflect it by attacking the questioner.

    Mr SPEAKER: In my opinion, the Minister addressed the question.

    Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.

    Mr SPEAKER: Before I hear any more, I just want to clarify the member is not in any way questioning the decision I have just made.

    Grant Robertson: No, it is a different point of order. I am under the impression that in this House a member cannot accuse another member directly of being corrupt, and that is what the Minister just did.

    Mr SPEAKER: No, I have already ruled that the answer was addressing the question and I think on this occasion, in light of the tone of the question, it adequately addressed it.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.

    Mr SPEAKER: Again, before I hear the member, is he raising a fresh point of order?

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: I am raising a fresh point of order. The Minister made an allegation for which she has no evidence whatsoever, and I want an apology.

    Mr SPEAKER: If the member is now saying that he took offence, well, on that basis, if the member, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, was offended by that answer, I ask the honourable Minister to stand and withdraw.

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: Well, I withdraw—is it? I withdraw. But I am happy—

    Mr SPEAKER: Order! It is not helpful to do that. The withdrawal does help the order of the House.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.

    Mr SPEAKER: If the member is attempting to trifle with the Chair, I will take a very dim view of that.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: I am not trifling with the Chair, Mr Speaker. That Minister did not apologise as required under the Standing Orders—

    Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume his seat. [Interruption] The member will resume his seat. I did not ask the Minister to apologise; I asked her to withdraw the remark, and she did so.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

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  258. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “Any other groups you want to target with death squads”

    Mimes. :)

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  259. publicwatchdog (2,107 comments) says:

    Seen this Kiwibloggers?

    https://www.labour.org.nz/media/more-oravida-endorsements-john-key

    On this point I do agree with David Cunliffe.

    Penny Bright

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  260. UglyTruth (3,997 comments) says:

    UT, is God, a language that did not evolve into existence?

    The term “God” is ambiguous, it can refer to the word (logos) …

    Sounds like you believe in there being a language of the word of God created to programme humanity and you call this God’s religion of the word/the religion of the word of God.

    Not to program humanity but reality.
    It’s not really a religion but a more system of language used to describe or define reality.

    Or in short you believe in revelation of God to you by men (already dead) who cannot be questioned.

    The revelation can still be tested by using it to interpret language directly, by finding connections between what the revelation implies about meaning and the ordinary meaning conveyed by the language.

    UT, the word logos is used in the New Testament, it can be associated with word to please those who seek the refuge of knowledge via faith in the work of other men (established word of God tradition). But this is just another form of idolatry (albeit claimed to be of a higher form than the others – a bit like a henotheism in that written word of God religion would be the highest form of religious idolatry).

    I think it would only be idolatry if it (or the knowledge relating to its application) was applied for the wrong reasons.

    But the word logos has a wider meaning. The ground on which one builds – Adam out of the earth. A premise that before creation there was Creator God.

    The relationship between man and the land is described or defined by the language, from this connection you can identify the significance of the law of the land.

    This leads to the term “emanation”. Thought preceding word, recipe before the cake etc. Word preceding the act of creation.

    The building blocks of language could be described as emanations.

    One constructs a building on a base. Such as a tower of Babel (in ancient Sumer ancient cities were rebuilt on again and again until the site was a hill, this was a place which had existed for many generations). Ultimately a world view is built. Whether called Babylonian or the many books of the covenant nation (Tanakh).

    Linguistically, Babylon is built on confusion.

    What survives a human generation, only what it passes onto its successors as an inheritance?

    I don’t see mankind in terms of human beings, humans could be said to be a product of Babylon, existing in a state of confusion.

    What if a generation passed on faith in a Creator God that had possession the gift of eternal life (symbolised by some food on a tree) but that this was denied to mortal man. How does one reconcile the fact of mortality with a forbidden fruit that man may desire?

    The idea of eternal life is present in the gospel, but it is not a universal gift. The fruit of the tree of life was not forbidden.

    If there is a world view built on this, is it men passing on belief in word of God books (idolatry of men) where this is connected to knowledge of law regulating the culture of society or of a religion in the here and now? So as to instruct descendants to not do harm to others, but only good, so that one is worthy before God?

    The nature of a world view depends very much on how it came into being. Do no harm sounds good, put it’s not really practical if someone is attacking you.

    Where we bargain that, if we are good we will get reward from God, so we see an ultimate justice to life.

    The value of that worldview depends of knowing what “good” is. It helps if you’ve got a rational framework to find the meaning rather than relying on the meaning inherited from tradition.

    Or without knowledge of this idolatry, is there independent of this some consciousness of a Creator God that which inspires to the knowledge of the good, as to truth and the righteous way.

    The language itself can assist with this knowledge, for example peace is a part of the “way” .

    So that those of the Tanakh, and those not, can have common ground on which to build.

    Finding common ground involves knowing what happened with the tower and the city (Gen 10:9). Sorry if this is all a bit cryptic, but it’s more valuable if you figure it out yourself rather than just taking somebody else’s word for it.

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  261. kowtow (7,631 comments) says:

    Kea.

    “He” can’t apply to DPF for reinstatement ,because “he” is a she.

    Haven’t missed the nasty troll at all. Tone of GD much better without it.

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  262. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    “………….nasska (9,455 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 6:46 pm

    Kea’s suspension ran out on the 10th but he’s got to apply to DPF by email before he can get reinstated.

    29th at the earliest…………”

    Your’re almost as sad as Penny Nasska. :cool:

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  263. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Did Kea pick on you Harriet? :)

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  264. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    “Any other groups you want to target with death squads, big bruv?”

    I do so love the opinion of a upper middle class liberal, one who has never had to confront gang scum and their associates on a daily basis, one who has no idea what it is like to live in a community where gangs reside.
    It is much easier for the likes of mikenmild to sit in his gated community and crack open a cheeky bottle of pinot of an evening whilst passing judgement on things they have no idea about.

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  265. kowtow (7,631 comments) says:

    And you can add Saudi Arabia and a couple of the Gulf States too.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2604536/How-Pakistan-hid-Osama-Bin-Laden-U-S-fueled-Afghanistan-war.html

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  266. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    Kea’s ok.

    But constantly taking the Bible out of context, and then asking Christians to explain it really is a waste of time.

    And taking the stance that the US has no other interest outside of the US -other than war mongering- is also a waste of time.

    Any US ships currently helping to search for that lost plane off the Australian west coast would be some sort of ‘invasion’ or ‘anti[ type in country/religion/poliety] hysteria’ to Kea.

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  267. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    “But constantly taking the Bible out of context, and then asking Christians to explain it really is a waste of time.”

    Because they might be forced to face the fact that it is a work of fiction?

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  268. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    I do love bigoted bruv’s opinion of me, of whose life he knows nothing. Here’s looking at you, while drinking a Lion Red in my Pomare abode.

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  269. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Harriet

    Regardless of whether you agree with them, some commenters here such as Kea, Reid or UT hold views different to the majority. By expressing them they challenge other readers/commenters to justify their own opinions even if only to themselves.

    Vive la difference….it keeps boredom & complacency at bay.

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  270. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “Kea’s ok.”

    I looked up some past threads to see what the fuss was about.

    Gotta say, hope he/she stays away.

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  271. RF (1,272 comments) says:

    I hear that the useless Mickey Savage is no longer cunliffes companion after the poor legal advice he has been spouting.

    Must really hurt but then again he is a follower not a leader. Methinks he had ideas above his station that have been brought to a shuddering halt.

    I suspect he will soon try and buy his way back into cunliffes camp by making statements about J K that will be very untrue.

    Yesterday’s mouse.

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  272. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    Yeah right mike.

    Did you have to look on a map to find Pomare?, did it give you directions from any one of the KKK suburbs to Tiata?

    You really should back the Range Rover out of the garage at the weekend and take a drive out there, it might pay to lock the doors though when you drive through.

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  273. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    You have no idea big bruv, simply no idea. Goes with your generally clueless comments in general, I suppose.

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  274. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    “Kea’s ok.”

    I was replying to Nasska who knows Kea from experiance.

    I mean that once upon a time -less so recently- he/she did hold some good views/opinions/insight ect.

    It’s mainly the topic of Religion that brings out the absolute worst in Kea – he’ll see religion in everything that he wants to see it in – but never the presence of Religion/God in anything!

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  275. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    Pretty quiet for a full moon on GD tonight.

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  276. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Murphy came home plastered for the third night in a
    row.

    His wife dragged him to the window, pointing to the
    blazing lights of the big distillery in the distance.

    “See how big it is?” she said. “They can always make
    it faster than you can drink it.”

    “Maybe so,” said Murphy, “But I’ve got ‘em working
    nights!”

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  277. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    That a bit close to the bone was it?

    Face it mike, I know your type, upper class liberals who think that the rest of the world play by their rules. You have no idea at all what it is like to live amongst gang scum.

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  278. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Wait until Shawn pulls back the curtains & sees a blood moon Mike…..it will all go off then. :)

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  279. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    Out with your vigilante group keeping the peace in Brotown today, big bruv? We sure know you talk a big game. My guess is poisoning cats is about as tough as you get.

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  280. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    Shawn, God works in mysterious ways……..

    …….. Nasska encourages Kea, and Kea gets kicked out. :cool:

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  281. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    & sees a blood moon

    Yeshua! – chem trails!!.

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  282. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    ….”Nasska encourages Kea, and Kea gets kicked out”….

    Who, me? Never! :)

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  283. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    Not me mike. I would prefer it if we tested drugs on rapists, gang members and murderers rather than use animals.

    Ever seen a gang member in real life mike?

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  284. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    Only socially bruv.

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  285. stigie (908 comments) says:

    Thought JB would be out tonight being a blood moon and all ?

    Could be quite romantic with his ewes though !~

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  286. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “God works in mysterious ways……..

    …….. Nasska encourages Kea, and Kea gets kicked out.”

    God can work through anyone Harriet, even naaska. ;)

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  287. stephieboy (2,183 comments) says:

    First blood moon tonight. Wonder if Reid, UT , Wiki and the conspiracy community are hiding in their bunkers with pillows over their heads.?

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  288. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    “Only socially bruv.”

    Going to the movie and watching once were warriors does not count Mike.

    But go on, I know you are just busting to tell us how Gangs are really just misunderstood or are the way they are because of colonisation.

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  289. Tauhei Notts (1,608 comments) says:

    Big Bruv at 7.44.
    Having seen the skanks around Taita, I have often considered that the suburb has the wrong name.

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  290. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “First blood moon tonight. Wonder if Reid, UT and Wiki are hiding in their bunkers.?”

    Hope they remembered their tin foil hats.

    I was gonna sacrifice a goat, but there don’t seem to be any around my way.

    I’ll have to watch telly instead. :)

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  291. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    Gangs are pretty much a fact of life in all communities. Get used to them: they aren’t going anywhere.

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  292. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    Very droll Tauhei.

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  293. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    You obviously haven’t heard of the time JB combined bestiality with necrophilia Stigie.

    They say if you go down to the Wainuiomata River when the moon is full & the mist is drifting across the water you will hear the pitiful bleat of the ghost of the ewe. :)

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  294. Steve (North Shore) (4,499 comments) says:

    WiFi works in wardrobes – so they tell me.
    Ask Shorn, he will come out one day.
    Bye – spray and walk away

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  295. stigie (908 comments) says:

    I am stunned Nasska, truly am. Never thought JB would be up to his armpits in that sort of stuff !!

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  296. stigie (908 comments) says:

    Good correction of that word Nasska….JB will be most happy with that im sure !~

    Im sharp tonight, blood moon you see !

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  297. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    If bloody Penny had knitted the barbed wire on time, as promised, I’d have fenced the river off and that poor ewe would never have been caught in that circumstance that never happened of course! :)

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  298. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Excuses, excuses. :)

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  299. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Jesus! You’re fuckin quick nasska!

    Does the missus ever complain or is she easily satisfied? :)

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  300. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Wainui just beaten in the weekend I see!

    Bit like the Hutt Catholics! :)

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  301. stigie (908 comments) says:

    Sounds like she is both JB.

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  302. mikenmild (10,732 comments) says:

    Wainui playing early this weekend, JB – ‘for religious reasons’.

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  303. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    Evening Johnboy. Have you been hiding out back of the farm?

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  304. Harriet (4,521 comments) says:

    And who is she going to complain to since she satisfies herself JB? :cool:

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  305. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Been up the Tauherinikau bb. Bit of roaring going on up there and down here I see! :)

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  306. wat dabney (3,671 comments) says:

    Kea’s ok. But constantly taking the Bible out of context, and then asking Christians to explain it really is a waste of time

    You don’t actually mean ‘out of context’, since the context is merely the surrounding verses, which don’t affect the meaning of the extracts under discussion.

    What you are complaining about is people who give the Bible a straight and honest reading and call a spade a spade.

    When you say ‘out of context’ what you actually mean are all the execrable excuses, laughable justifications and rampant corruption and twisting of scripture which are drilled into “Christians” in order to render the vile and evil Bible palatable; such that it becomes completely unthinkable for them to do anything else.

    When they actually see someone giving the Bible a straightforward and honest reading they simply can’t recognise it. They only recognise the comforting, anti-Biblical lies.

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  307. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    We are very religious folks over here in the Nui milky specially when the bell tolls at 11 o’clock on a Sunday! :)

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  308. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Has my little feathered buddy been sacked again?

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  309. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    It seems that Kea is awaiting the return of the mountain climber.

    Are the nui that bad this year that they may even lose to Poneke?

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  310. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    As long as they beat Norths we no complain bb. Such is the slings and arrows of the Swindale Shield! :)

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  311. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “What you are complaining about is people who give the Bible a straight and honest reading and call a spade a spade.”

    Most non-Christians who think they are doing this are usually gravely mistaken.

    “When you say ‘out of context’ what you actually mean are all the execrable excuses, laughable justifications and rampant corruption and twisting of scripture which are drilled into “Christians””

    Never been to a Biblical drill class before. Sounds fun. :)

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  312. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    “Most non-Christians who think they are doing this are usually gravely mistaken.”

    How?

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  313. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Uh ….”non-Christians”….”gravely mistaken”?….Na forget it! :)

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  314. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    Johnboy

    What has happened to Norths?, just a few years back they were just about unbeatable.

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  315. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    “As Christians, we read, interpret and apply the Bible through the lens of Jesus Christ.

    In the law we find the foundation for Christ. In History we find the preparation for Christ. In Poetry we find the aspiration for Christ. In the Prophets we find the expectation of Christ. In the Gospels we find the manifestation of Christ. In Acts we find the propagation of Christ. In the Epistles we find the interpretation of Christ. In Revelation we find the consummation in Christ.”

    Norman Geisler, To Understand the Bible, Look for Jesus (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1968), 83.

    That’s how. Unless Scripture is read Christo-centrically, that is in the light of Christ and through His teaching, then it’s not Christianity anyone is critiquing. This arises from the misunderstanding that Christians follow the Bible. We don’t. We follow Christ.

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  316. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Not enough white men in the team bb? :)

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  317. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Evening Minus. Caught you by surprise did I? :)

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  318. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Johnboy, so Wainui sheep are educated enough to know that the Rams have to end up on top.

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  319. stephieboy (2,183 comments) says:

    wat dabney (3,422 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 9:04 pm

    Anti Biblical lies,?

    What about this. ?,

    Telling lies for God,

    http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file007.html

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  320. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Reading Richard Dawkins turned someone to Christ. :)

    “I started reading this thinking that I might read a logical, skeptical, nay scientific critique of religion. Instead, I found something right out of a Boston Globe editorial on a bad day: strings of pejorative adjectives pretending to be argument, bald assertion pretending to be evidence, an incredibly arrogant attitude, and a stance of moral equivalence incapable of distinguishing between the possible strengths and weaknesses of different religions, including the militant atheism Dawkins advocates. This is not academic analysis, it is bad journalism.

    Truthfully, I found the book a waste of my time as it afforded me no cogent arguments concerning the existence or non-existence of God. In fact, not only was Dawkins disrespectful of opinions other than his own, I found his statements about Jesus to be so ill-informed (and, mind you, I was no fount of scholarly information myself) that I resolved to actually learn something about Jesus Christ.”

    http://www.deadphilosopherssociety.com/2014/03/30/reading-richard-dawkins-led-to-my-conversion/

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  321. RightNow (6,660 comments) says:

    Hehehe, over 300 comments and nobody gives a shit about “global warming”.

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  322. RichardX (321 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,779 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 10:17 pm
    Reading Richard Dawkins turned someone to Christ.

    Some conversion

    About jbabarsky
    Judith R. Babarsky, MS, MA, is a Licensed Professional Counselor engaged in private practice for the past 22 years. A graduate of Holy Apostles College and Seminary with a Bioethics concentration, she teaches the undergraduate Intro to Bioethics class and is also a Teaching Assistant for graduate level Dogmatic Theology classes. A convert to Catholicism, she has a strong commitment to bioethical and social justice issues. She and her husband reside in Virginia. They have five grown children.

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  323. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    RichardX,

    She went to Holy Apostles AFTER her conversion.

    “Graduating from the International School of Bangkok in Thailand during the height of the Vietnamese War taught her to appreciate many different cultures and belief systems. She went on to Wellesley College and Virginia Tech, earning a B.S. in Sociology. She earned an M.S. in Clinical Psychology at Radford University with post-Master’s coursework at George Mason University.”

    http://www.holyapostles.edu/content/judith-r-babarsky-ma

    Try again son! :)

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  324. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    RightNow (6,330 comments) says:
    April 15th, 2014 at 10:19 pm

    Hehehe, over 300 comments and nobody gives a shit about “global warming”.
    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    He he he he
    Just waiting for the wing nuts to build confidence so i can give them another kicken wingnut.
    Reading difficulty right never
    five times in the first twenty comments

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  325. SGA (813 comments) says:

    @ShawnLH at 10:17 pm

    Reading Richard Dawkins turned someone to Christ.

    “turned”?

    Recently returned from a Mission Trip, we headed straight to our family week long beach vacation. On fire from my week in Canada surrounded by mostly Catholics, I must have appeared overly zealous to my eldest stepdaughter. … [snip]… Never one to shrink from a challenge to my admittedly unexamined faith in one God, I was intrigued and logged onto Amazon to check out the book.
    … [snip] …
    And that was the beginning of the last leg of my journey to conversion to Catholicism. …

    To be fair, she got further through the God Delusion than I did (my wife’s copy).

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  326. ShawnLH (3,418 comments) says:

    Interesting story with some very cool photos.

    “A 13-year-old eagle huntress in Mongolia”

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26969150

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  327. RightNow (6,660 comments) says:

    Nah Griff, still don’t see anyone giving a shit about it. Just like you, what have you done to save the world?

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  328. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    I see the normal head in the sand circle jerk right now

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