General Debate 18 April 2014

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Manolo

The strongman is also a showman: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2606846/From-one-spy-Putin-says-Russia-not-carrying-mass-surveillance-citizens-response-question-Edward-Snowden-live-televised-Q-A.html
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April 18, 2014 8:00am
ShawnLH

“In the pioneer days on the prairie lands, people would sometimes find themselves about to be consumed. They would be in the middle of a field and a fire would catch in the tall, dry grass. Stiff winds pushed the flames towards them, so fast not even horses could outrun them. There was no time to escape. Instead they took a match and burned a patch of ground where they stood. Then they waited on the burned-over ground. The prairie fire swept up to the edge of the patch and, finding nothing there to consume, passed by.

And later, the fire proved a gift to the earth: It burned what was already dead, and it’s ashes nurtured new life.

Jesus Christ burned the earth with His cross. God poured out His wrath (which we deserve) on His Son. If we take our stand there, the wrath to come will pass us by, and in it’s time will renew the very earth it devours.’

Mark Buchanan – ‘The Holy Wild.’
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April 18, 2014 8:11am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

What Americaland has to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg3LqFquJcs
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April 18, 2014 8:30am
mikenmild

Everyone having a good Friday so far?
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April 18, 2014 8:48am
igm

Are Waitangi Tribunal working today getting a claim in for the new planet?
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April 18, 2014 8:53am
big bruv

They will all enjoy their day off mike, all the more so knowing that they have another day off on Sunday.
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April 18, 2014 8:53am
SGA

mikenmild at 8:48 am

Everyone having a good Friday so far?

Bit worried actually – I hope that all the bad weather over the weekend doesn’t upset the Easter Bunny’s schedule too much.
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April 18, 2014 8:58am
stephieboy

Poetry and Prose for this day of Holy Obligation Good Friday . Please Enjoy.

John 19 vs 23- 28 .

Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece. 24 They said therefore among themselves, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be,” that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:
“They divided My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.”[d]
Therefore the soldiers did these things.
Behold Your Mother
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.
It Is Finished
28 After this, Jesus, knowing[e] that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Blow, Blow, Thou Winter Wind ( Edited )

Blow, blow, thou winter wind
Thou art not so unkind
As man’s ingratitude;
Thy tooth is not so keen,
Because thou art not seen,
Although thy breath be rude.

Freeze, freeze thou bitter sky,
That does not bite so nigh
As benefits forgot:
Though thou the waters warp,
Thy sting is not so sharp
As a friend remembered not.

William Shakespeare .As You Like it

Via Dolorosa

IV
LIBITINA VERTICORDIA
…….Sister of sleep, healer of life, divine As rest and strong as very love may be, To set the soul that love could set not free, To bid the skies that day could bid not shine, To give the gift that life withheld was thine. With all my heart I loved one borne from me: And all my heart bows down and praises thee, Death, that hast now made grief not his but mine.
O Changer of men’s hearts, we would not bid thee Turn back our hearts from sorrow: this alone We bid, we pray thee, from thy sovereign throne And sanctuary sublime where heaven has hid thee, Give: grace to know of those for whom we weep That if they wake their life is sweet as sleep.
 V
THE ORDER OF RELEASE
Thou canst not give it. Grace enough is ours To know that pain for him has fallen on rest. The worst we know was his on earth: the best, We fain would think,–a thought no fear deflowers– Is his, released from bonds of rayless hours. Ah, turn our hearts from longing; bid our quest Cease, as content with failure. This thy guest Sleeps, vexed no more of time’s imperious powers, The spirit of hope, the spirit of change and loss, The spirit of love bowed down beneath his cross, Nor now needs comfort from the strength of song. Love, should he wake, bears now no cross for him: Dead hope, whose living eyes like his were dim, Has brought forth better comfort, strength more strong…..

Algernon Charles Swinburne .

Stabat Mater Dolorosa Pergolsi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9ZET0kU9qs
.
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April 18, 2014 9:00am
peterwn

See:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/9951325/Storage-customers-consider-legal-action

Hate to be harsh, but the customers would need to show either negligence or breach of contract on the part of the storage company. It would be difficult to prove negligence merely because the owner provided facilities well short of Fort Knox standards. Sprinklers are not normal in storage units, so it is difficult to argue that the owner should install sprinklers, similarly a tenant cannot expect a landlord to provide sprinklers unless it is agreed to or sprinklers are already in place.

Storage customers could have a case if the owner failed to ensure premises were reasonably secure in the circumstances eg if there is an automatic gate or cameras, it would be negligent if the owner did not keep them functional. It would not be negligent just because security was not up to Fort Knox standards.

Then customers complain about lack of insurance cover on their contents policies. Perhaps insurance companies are more concerned about fraudulent claims than about break-ins, so it all probably comes down to the customer arranging appropriate cover and being in a position to prove (on a balance of probabilities) what goods were stored and their value.

Extra fire protection and security costs money and would be reflected in increased rents. If I was in the business I might consider having several units with enhanced security and fire protection separately enclosed for those customers wanting extra peace of mind.

While the losses are regrettable, one would very much doubt that the customers could pursue a claim successfully.
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April 18, 2014 9:12am
OneTrack

peterwn – just another symptom of Aotearoa 2014 and anything that happens is considered somebody elses fault.
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April 18, 2014 9:26am
igm

Mr Ed (Ardern) is questioning why sworn police are leaving the force. Reason is: Labour’s lowering of entry standards both academically and physically, along with a leaning to socialists, has driven many hard-nosed decent cops out. Read “Confessions From the Front Line”, where cops were cops, not undersized weaklings and sociology adherents.
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April 18, 2014 9:28am
stephieboy

igm,

The police I see coming from time to time to the public hospital I work at are generally very big, fit and strong.
Same at the local police station.
And if Araon Rhys Mc Donald is anything to go by , a very stressful job.!
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April 18, 2014 9:34am
RF

igm…….When I worked in “The Job” the street wise cops came from backgrounds such as truck drivers, Shearers etc… Not wiz kids destined to be commissioned officers but hard working troops who watched your 6 and got their man.

The Uni types were usually fast tracked for a higher calling and many although issued with a torch never used it. If you get my meaning.
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April 18, 2014 9:57am
big bruv

“of Aotearoa 2014”

Where?
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April 18, 2014 10:19am
Pete George

More views on the Karam versus Parker and Purkiss defamation case:

The Paepae: Defamation via Facebook and ‘a private website’

This defamation case should be a shot across the bows of various internet wide-boys who think ‘defence of truth’ or ‘opinion honestly held’ is some kind of magic elixir or Get Out of Jail Free card. It’s worth noting the oh-so-easy-to-reach-for-until-you’re-tested ‘truth defence’ in this case was abandoned during the trial.

Occasional Erudite: The Joe Karam defamation case – what does it mean for blogs and social media?

To my mind though, the way in which Courtney J has applied the threshold test under which honest opinion can be relied upon doesn’t necessarily take into account the way that blogs and social media sites function.

…

That’s why I’m slightly uncomfortable with the judgment. A comment on a blog post, when viewed in isolation or as part of the individual blog post and the thread of comments that follow, may not appear to have a factual basis. However, when viewed as part of a blogger or commentator’s history of blogging or commenting, may have a factual basis that is well known to others who frequent the blog.

That’s not to say that the defendants in Mr Karam’s defamation suit don’t richly deserve to have been found to have defamed Mr Karam. My concern is whether the case sets a precedent that doesn’t necessarily fit with the way that blogs and social media actually operate.
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April 18, 2014 10:24am
Fletch

Another good article in the Herald today.

Easter is coming with eggs and other trivia; Christ will be ignored. New Zealand is not a Christian country in the sense that most of us are faithful believers but like the rest of the West it remains, for a while, ‘Christianised’.

Most New Zealanders take equality of everyone under the law, from Prime Minister to the bottom of the heap, for granted. Only countries with a Christianised history benefit from this tradition. Ancient Rome did not hand this on to us and neither did any Greek city state or tyrant. That contemporary priestly vocation, secular multiculturalism, is an amnesiac devouring its own roots. Diversity can be fun but it’s a foundation for nothing.

The conviction that all men and women are created in God’s image is the essence that infuses equality under the law. Together these inhibit the totalitarian state. They are the only barricade civil society has against creeping tyranny. Democracy decays without them

[…]

In spite of their rebellion God loves his creatures. To prove it and to fulfil the just demands of the law, in the person of Christ, he becomes man and dies on a cross. The Creator of Life is killed by his creatures; the irony is deliberate. The debt incurred by the creature’s rebellion is paid. Death, the consequence of our rebellion, cannot hold Jesus. He rises on the third day fully human and fully God. At last the rebel can be liberated from the power and consequences of his own folly.

This is the story of our culture. It declares our dignity by teaching that freedom is first of all about self-control that comes from trusting God. It is not about the counterfeit of undisciplined choice. The more godlike the sovereignty of choice becomes the less free our lives will be.

It is vacuous to claim that we are creating a new story to replace the old. The equality shibboleth of diversity and tolerance will have a limited life. Rubbing along together by excavating what we least disagree about is tiresome. It leads to increasing group self-interest and conflicting rights.

There are only two stories. Either the Easter story is true and Christ is our redeemer or it is a lie. The second story is a tragedy. The State, with or without paganised civil religion, is the default saviour.

When I was a boy most of us believed the first story; some of us put our trust in its Hero. We are sinners no longer. Guilt and shame and certainly sin, are psychological fictions; humility a weakness. Government, like Caesar, is the priest and king unable to forgive our trespasses. It tells us how to think, live and worship. Don’t imagine you won’t worship; you will. You are locked into it. There is a dubious consolation. Risk and suffering will be at arm’s length and you can ‘choose’ death with illusory self-esteem secure.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11239986
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April 18, 2014 10:48am
kowtow

RF et al

Another huge problem in policing across the Anglosphere is managerialism.

This started as far as I can tell in the UK in the ’80’s and seems to have spread far and wide.Possibly through places like Bramshill with the command courses they run there for commonwealth and UK police.

Old fashioned leadership has given way to managers and target culture as well as the fact that most if not all taxpayer funded organisations have been politicised and are now agencies for social engineering under the guise of “equality”.

As someone else pointed out on another post ,National have forgotten or ignore their founding principles while police forces have binned Peels policing principles (if they’ve even heard of them).
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April 18, 2014 10:54am
holysheet

SB said
The police I see coming from time to time to the public hospital I work at are generally very big, fit and strong.
Same at the local police station.

thats because all the big brawny ones are imports from overseas. you just have to listen to their accents when they talk on the various police reality shows on TV.
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April 18, 2014 10:54am
Andrei

Well Fletch – that in the NZ Herald on a Good Friday Morning is a wonder to behold.

No Glynn Cardy posters this year, no boxes containing of the bones of Christ recently “discovered” a straight story on target
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April 18, 2014 11:05am
kowtow

Talking of accents and reality TV shows….

……they must have elocution lessons at the police college to teach them “Bro talk”.What strikes me is ‘bro’ this and ‘bro’ that, ‘cool eh’ etc, all delivered with the newly fashionable maori accent that so many of our youngsters seem to affect these days…..

The ultimate in dumbing down. That maori renaissance has a lot to answer for.
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April 18, 2014 11:08am
ShawnLH

Yes, Andrei, I have to admit I was very happy when Glynn Cardy left the Anglican church.
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April 18, 2014 11:28am
UglyTruth

Most New Zealanders take equality of everyone under the law, from Prime Minister to the bottom of the heap, for granted. Only countries with a Christianised history benefit from this tradition. Ancient Rome did not hand this on to us and neither did any Greek city state or tyrant.

The doctrine of universalism is Roman in the sense that it was an integral part of the official religion of Rome, i.e. Roman Catholic Christianity, since Catholic, from katholika, means universal.
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April 18, 2014 11:41am
stephieboy

Peter George, Very good points re Karam versus Parker defamation case,

John Keys , David Cunilffe and Russell Norman daily on fb , blogs ,including this one ,endure much, much worse.
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April 18, 2014 11:42am
wat dabney

“In spite of their rebellion God loves his creatures”

That’ll be the same deity which drowned everyone in the entire world and which consigns all non-believers, including babies and children, to an eternity of fire.
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April 18, 2014 11:52am
mikenmild

It is difficult to maintain any faith is such a vicious, vengeful god. You won’t get such treatment from the Fying Spaghetti Monster. It’s clear then, who is best to believe in.
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April 18, 2014 11:55am
stephieboy

holysheet.

You’ve got be to stone deaf.
Could be a good idea for you to go for a long , long wander with your walking frame.
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April 18, 2014 12:11pm
Manolo

A literary great has died: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-17/gabriel-garcia-marquez-nobel-prize-winning-novelist-dies-at-87.html
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April 18, 2014 12:13pm
dirty harry

Love Easter..double time and 12 hours day in Lieu..cha ching..
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April 18, 2014 12:14pm
Fletch

That’ll be the same deity which drowned everyone in the entire world and which consigns all non-believers, including babies and children, to an eternity of fire.

Does a creator not have a right to destroy what he creates? Even if the creation thinks it is so very special (based on what, without God?) I do not believe that God consigns all non-believers to fire, either.

For the Church’s teaching on the salvation of non-Christians, see paragraphs 839-848 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, especially this section:

“This affirmation [no salvation outside the Church] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.

“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (CCC 847-848).
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April 18, 2014 12:16pm
dirty harry

stephieboy

do keep up..its John ‘ Key’ , ‘Russel’ Norman and David ‘Cunliffe’..
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April 18, 2014 12:16pm
ShawnLH

“which consigns all non-believers, including babies and children, to an eternity of fire.”

Where do you get that from Scripture? For a start it never says anything about babies and children. And the issue of salvation not as simplistic as you define it.
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April 18, 2014 12:17pm
wat dabney

ShawnLH,

Please don’t be disingenuous.

Have the courage to face the consequences of this abhorrent belief system.
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April 18, 2014 12:19pm
ShawnLH

Thanks Fletch. Not RC myself but I agree with those statements.

Atheists are often lazy thinkers. They go for straw man caricatures of real Christianity, or make references to the Fying Spaghetti Monster, because doing any serious study of what most Christians actually believe, and then offering a serious critique, would exercise their brains a little too much for their liking.
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April 18, 2014 12:20pm
mikenmild

His Noodleness forgives you, Shawn. The beauty of the FSM is that there is as much evidence for the existence of His Noodleness as there is for your imaginary deity.
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April 18, 2014 12:24pm
SGA

ShawnLH at 12:20 pm

because doing any serious study of what most Christians actually believe would exercise their brains a little too much for their liking.

To be fair, that would also be true of what some chrisitians’ knowledge of “science” or competing religions.
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April 18, 2014 12:24pm
ShawnLH

“Please don’t be disingenuous.”

I’m not, you are. Have the courage to face the consequences of your ignorance.
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April 18, 2014 12:24pm
ShawnLH

“there is as much evidence for the existence of His Noodleness as there is for your imaginary deity.”

Not really. There is that lazy thinking I was talking about. We have more textual and historical evidence for Jesus than for Julius Caesar. There is none for your straw man.
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April 18, 2014 12:27pm
Johnboy

Gee. It will be an exciting series of games in the Swindale Shield tomorrow! 🙂
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April 18, 2014 12:27pm
wat dabney

“Atheists are often lazy thinkers. They go for straw man caricatures of real Christianity…because doing any serious study of what most Christians actually believe, and then offering a serious critique, would exercise their brains a little too much for their liking.”

You completely misunderstand, or misrepresent, the position.

The problem is that ‘what Christians actually believe’ is mostly completely unbiblical (witness your bafflement when the consequences of ‘being saved’ were mentioned above.)

What you fake “Christians” cannot deal with is having the ugliness and sheer evilness of the Bible presented back to you unvarnished.
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April 18, 2014 12:30pm
kowtow

A belief system whose central tenet is ‘Love your neighbour” can only be abhorrant to someone full of hatred and bitterness.

And yes,Jesus Christ died for all mankind ,including the wat dabneys of this world….

On this day.Good Friday.
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April 18, 2014 12:33pm
Johnboy

Odd games I’ve loved HOBM. I see no conflict of faith there! 🙂
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April 18, 2014 12:36pm
SGA

kowtow at 12:33 pm

A belief system whose central tenet is ‘Love your neighbour” can only be abhorrant to someone full of hatred and bitterness.

And yet, when I think of your comments on this blog the phrase ‘Love your neighbour’ isn’t my first thought. Odd.
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April 18, 2014 12:37pm
ShawnLH

“The problem is that ‘what Christians actually believe’ is mostly completely unbiblical”

Classical Christian theology is Biblical.

“witness your bafflement when the consequences of ‘being saved’ were mentioned above.”

I wasn’t baffled, you were. You understanding of salvation is not Biblical to begin with.

“What you fake “Christians” cannot deal with is having the ugliness and sheer evilness of the Bible presented back to you unvarnished.”

What you fake atheists cannot deal with is your total lack of Biblical understanding and knowledge.

I’m happy to take my Scripture unvarnished, rather than the varnishing that ignorant, uneducated and trolling atheists engage in.
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April 18, 2014 12:38pm
mikenmild

Actually Shawn, there is no reliable historical evidence for Jesus outside the gospels. But you know that. At least for Caesar we have his own writings.
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April 18, 2014 12:39pm
ShawnLH

No Mike. Remember that I’m a theology student at a secular university. So what I do know is that your wrong. Again.

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources:

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4223639/k.567/Ancient_Evidence_for_Jesus_from_NonChristian_Sources.htm
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April 18, 2014 12:42pm
stephieboy

This would have to be a highlight from the Pistorius trial thus far. Prosecutor shreds to pieces the credibility of Defence expert witness in forensic geology Roger Dixon.

http://ewn.co.za/2014/04/16/Oscar-Pistorius-trial-Nel-shakes-Dixons-credibility#

Utterly priceless.

Not looking good Oscar.!
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April 18, 2014 12:46pm
Fletch

Actually Shawn, there is no reliable historical evidence for Jesus outside the gospels. But you know that.

You’re wrong. Any true historian, Christian or not, believes Jesus existed
Bart Ehrman is arguably the most influential Bible critic of our day. He frequently debates Christian scholars about the reliability of the New Testament gospels from a historical standpoint. While he is a skeptic in terms of the overall truth of the Christian faith, he is not skeptical about the existence of a real Jesus.

I am not a Christian, and I have no interest in promoting a Christian cause or a Christian agenda. I am an agnostic with atheist leanings , and my life and views of the world would be approximately the same whether or not Jesus existed. . . . But as a historian I think evidence matters. And the past matters. And for anyone to whom both evidence and the past matter, a dispassionate consideration of the case makes it quite plain: Jesus did exist. ~ Ehrman, Did Jesus Exist? 5– 6.

And, of course, Jesus is mentioned by Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, a Roman governor of Bithynia, Flavius Josephus, the third-century historian Julius Africanus by way of first-century historian Thallus, who wrote about the darkness that occurred at the time of the crucifixion:

On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the 263 book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior fails on the day before the passover [see Phlegon]; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse be supposed to happen when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun? ~ Julius Africanus, Chronography 18.1
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April 18, 2014 12:47pm
Johnboy

Prayer for good Friday:

“Oh lord Jesus ….save us poor souls from Theology Students Amen” ! 🙂
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April 18, 2014 12:47pm
ShawnLH

Thanks for that Fletch.

Is it too much to expect atheists, who are always ranting about “reason” and evidence, to actually get an education?
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April 18, 2014 12:49pm
mikenmild

Aren’t the Swindale Shield games on today and Monday, JB?
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April 18, 2014 12:50pm
freemark

A few of you are ruining GD for many of us. Here are my suggestions..
1) rename the 10 Commandments “rules for a happy & successful society”
2) Live the rules
3) Start your own blog “haters vs lovers’ or something like that.
4) Have a happy Easter break, whatever it means for you, but don’t tell anyone else what it should mean for them.
Thanks
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April 18, 2014 12:58pm
mikenmild

‘Jesus is mentioned by Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, a Roman governor of Bithynia, Flavius Josephus, the third-century historian Julius Africanus by way of first-century historian Thallus’
I’m sure you will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe any of these are contemporary sources. Julius Caesar still ahead in the reality stakes.
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April 18, 2014 12:58pm
Johnboy

A disgusting abomination of the lords two most sacred days that Rugby should be played on them milkey! 🙂
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April 18, 2014 1:01pm
ShawnLH

So Mike all you have done is to change your argument from “no evidence” to “no contemporary evidence.”

Admit you were wrong on the first assertion, then we may make progress. But when you start with clearly ignorant statements then try to backtrack, it does not say much for your much vaunted “reason.”
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April 18, 2014 1:03pm
Viking2

South Canterbury Finance’s collapse has left New Zealand $808 million out of pocket, with a Treasury representative admitting it knew the company was troubled but let it into the extended guarantee scheme anyway.

Former SCF chief executive Lachie McLeod, and former directors Edward Sullivan and Robert White, are on trial before Justice Heath in the High Court at Timaru, on a combined 18 charges laid by the Serious Fraud Office.

SCF collapsed in August 2010, with taxpayers’ money paid to investors under the Government retail deposit guarantee scheme.

Treasury manager of guarantee schemes John Park gave evidence yesterday, discussing Treasury’s awareness of the flagging finance company’s troubles.

===============================

so us taxpayers have done 808 million because treasury and English didn’t do the homework.
send Bill the Bill.

( No wonder we have borrowed 50 billion since 2006)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/9951284/Taxpayers-lose-808m-in-finance-collapse
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April 18, 2014 1:04pm
ShawnLH

A brilliant destruction of atheist claims to rely on reason.

CELESTIAL TEAPOTS, FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTERS, AND OTHER SILLY ATHEIST ARGUMENTS.

“You have to pity the modern atheist who attempts to present arguments for her cause. Unmoored from any respectable intellectual tradition, each generation is forced to recreate anti-theistic arguments from scratch. The result is that the claims which they believe to be clever and damning often turn out to be—to use a technical philosophical phrase—just plain silly.”

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/05/celestial-teapots-flying-spaghetti-monsters-and-other-silly-atheist-arguments
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April 18, 2014 1:05pm
SGA

ShawnLHat 1:03 pm

So Mike all you have done is to change your argument from “no evidence” to “no contemporary evidence.”

I hope you aren’t relying on any “anecdotal and untested “evidence” and uninformed witnesses” 🙂
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April 18, 2014 1:07pm
ShawnLH

Falsifying the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

“There is a fundamental distinction between the way that Christian apologists approach proving a negative, and the way that atheists approach proving a negative. The distinction is that Christian apologists give good reasons to accept that something doesn’t exist or isn’t true, whereas atheist apologists will commit a fallacy known as an argument from ignorance. The atheist will say “If you can’t prove to my satisfaction that God exists, then I am justified in not believing.” It is an argument from ignorance to say that “X” does not exist because it hasn’t been proven to my satisfaction. However, Christian apologists will say, “We have good reasons to not accept your claim.” and then will proceed to give those reasons.”

http://answersforhope.org/portfolio_item/falsifying-flying-spaghetti-monster/
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April 18, 2014 1:08pm
Viking2

Found where the Flying spagethi Monster comes from.

Astronomers have discovered what they say is the most Earth-like planet yet detected – a distant, rocky world that’s similar in size to our own and exists in the Goldilocks zone where it’s not too hot and not too cold for life.

The find excited planet hunters who have been scouring the Milky Way galaxy for years for potentially habitable places outside our solar system.

“This is the best case for a habitable planet yet found. The results are absolutely rock solid,” University of California, Berkeley astronomer Geoff Marcy, said.
===============================

😆

http://www.stuff.co.nz/science/9956531/Earth-like-planet-breakthrough-discovery
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April 18, 2014 1:15pm
ShawnLH

The Conflict Really Lies within New Atheism

“In his new book “Where the Conflict Really Lies,” Alvin Plantinga levels a devastating critique against the “new atheism” espoused by thinkers such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

Plantinga gives a wealth of argument for the theist to use against the claims of atheism. And in this, it must be said, he exercises considerably more intellectual virtue than his opponents. Plantinga’s early chapters are devastating in revealing that the prime architects of the new atheism almost inevitably gravitate toward straw-man characterizations of their opponents’ views, attribute venal motives to their opponents, and fail to investigate the intellectual sources of Christianity, giving no weight, for example, to the classical arguments of Aquinas and Locke, or the arguments of contemporary theists such as Swinburne and van Inwagen. Their rhetoric is inevitably condescending, as the development of the recent cult of the “flying spaghetti monster” makes clear.”

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/06/5612/
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April 18, 2014 1:17pm
SGA

@ShawnLH
All these quotes and links – remind you of any other regulars to this blog?
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April 18, 2014 1:25pm
wf

I’m getting the feeling that John Key needs to step back from the limelight, & stay in one place for a week.

He’s in danger of overexposure.
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April 18, 2014 1:28pm
mikenmild

So I’m backtracking? Tell me again how there’s more evidence for Jesus than there is for Caesar.
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April 18, 2014 1:35pm
stephieboy

“In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadow for those who don’t.”

― Blaise Pascal
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April 18, 2014 1:40pm
cha

remind you of any other regulars to this blog?

Say it ain’t (*squawk*) so!.
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April 18, 2014 1:42pm
freemark

“Viking2 (10,700 comments) says:
April 18th, 2014 at 1:04 pm
South Canterbury Finance’s collapse has left New Zealand $808 million out of pocket, with a Treasury representative admitting it knew the company was troubled but let it into the extended guarantee scheme anyway.”

If you don’t know the history of the Finance Co. Guarantees you are a fuckwit and have no place commenting on it.
If you do you are a fuckwit anyway for your infantile comment.
FYI NZ Govt (taxpayer) spending on Welfare (excluding amounts via IRD) appears to be around $500M per week. You’d like to see that chopped down no doubt?
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April 18, 2014 1:44pm
Jack5

Anybody know much about the NZ Drug Foundation, which seems to be at odds with southern local bodies over synthetic drugs?

Its web site talks about “Aotearoa New Zealand”, a description that typically signals liberal-prog influence, and it seems to reflect the views of folk who professionally treat drug addicts. I’m sure these people work hard for what they consider is the good and health of the community. Their views obviously need to be taken seriously. The views of affected communities, including ordinary citizens, parents, families, former addicts, police, mayors, and so on equally deserve to be taken seriously.

It’s questionable whether concern of families and communities about synthetic drugs deserves to be labelled “hysteria” (as the foundation is reported as doing). To my mind, that’s the sort of bullshit that politicians seem to be filtering to the MSM through various gullible contacts.

From a TV3 interview a little time back with Ross Bell, the foundation’s administrator, the foundation showed it supports regulation rather than prohibition, which it says doesn’t work.

While NZ and other Western countries let synthetic poisons wash a generation of young people down the drain, Singapore shows prohibition can work. The point will arrive where we may surrender a little freedom so that the synthetic narco’s damaging trade can be suppressed.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/9956952/Southern-mayors-Ban-legal-highs

AND

https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/about-us/what-we-do
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April 18, 2014 2:08pm
SPC

After the American lie about the head of the CIA being in Ukraine, Putin confirms his own.

He finally admits Russian forces were in Crimea. Possibly to increase credibility to his claim that they are not yet in Ukraine (whether this is true we cannot easily know).

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11240146

Now we have the Russians seeking ethnic citizens of eastern Ukraine to register with local authorities. The initial focus is on Jews. A reminder of Stalin’s days (one wonders how Tartars in Crimea are being profiled by Russian security and whether the continued repatriation from lands they were deported to will actually continue for long).

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11240510

Ukraine was wrong to respond to local activists as they did (re the show of force). Much smarter would have been overnight movements into key airfield positions (to reduce Russian troop movement options) and a statement that decisions on autonomous rule in the east (as Crimea had) would be determined after presidential and parliamentary elections – with the candidates and parties seeking mandate for their policies.
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April 18, 2014 2:08pm
Viking2

freemark. Its you that’s the clown.

I am am well aware of the history and find it reprehensible that the taxpayer should bail out a bunch of bad financiers, their funders and customers with the support and indulgence of Treasury and English when it was obvious long before the fact that SCF was in the crap and was going under.
If you didn’t know it was then you, like them, must have had your eyes up your arse.

Govt. won’t bail me or my business affairs out. But then I’m not a member of Socialist Unity nor an I a bank.

And of course spending 500m a week on welfare, that in many cases is comfy handouts, e.g 20 hours childcare, to people who should do things for themselves doesn’t work in my book. Its creates a legacy of debt which NZ is rapidly piling up as indicated by Govt. Borrowings.
Debt that will hang round our neck for a long time. Still I will be retired while you are still paying for it so that’s fine.

I guess you were one of the privileged that was refunded some money from SCF so you think its alright the taxpayer should fund
that handout.

It ain’t the Taxpayers role in life to fund your mistakes.
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April 18, 2014 2:09pm
mikenmild

Prohibition obviously hasn’t worked in NZ. Time to either make it work – damned if I know how – or move to a more sensible regime based on letting adults take charge of what substances they use and letting the justice and health systems focus on harm minimisation.
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April 18, 2014 2:11pm
mikenmild

SPC
It appears that Russia might be drawing back from its threats over eastern Ukraine:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/04/17/russia_ukraine_e_u_and_u_s_reach_deal_to_defuse_eastern_ukraine_crisis.html
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April 18, 2014 2:15pm
Jack5

Re Milkenmild on drug control (2.11 post).

Milkenmild, that would of course meaning immediately ending the campaign to stop people smoking tobacco.
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April 18, 2014 2:20pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/josephus-etal.html
Unlike other founding religious figures like Mohammed, Guru Nanak, Joseph Smith, Buddha, Haile Selassi there is little to no reliable contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus. And there are some strong indications of later fabrications to shore up the weakness in the story.

That is pretty damning given the millions of man years that have been devoted by Christian clergy to building up the story and destroying anything that might have put it in a poor light, while they held an almost complete monopoly on record keeping and scholarship in Europe for 1500 years that allowed them to get away with it.

Not that it makes any difference to the truth of the Bible, it’s just remarkable that the central figure may be a myth or composite assembly of other individuals/stories.

If you are Christian; why you are not a Muslim? A Zoroastrian? A Daoist? A Buddhist? A Hindu? A Mormon? A Sikh? A Santerian? A Wiccan? A Jew? Do you honestly believe you would not be a follower of one of these other faiths if you had been bought up in it? So how can you honestly hold christian beliefs above or ahead those others?

Go on, stick your fingers in your ears, sing La-La-La and vote me down 🙂
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April 18, 2014 2:26pm
cha

Old habits.

A leaflet distributed in Donetsk, Ukraine calling for all Jews over 16 years old to register as Jews marred the Jewish community’s Passover festivities Monday (Passover eve), replacing them with feelings of concern.

The leaflet demanded the city’s Jews supply a detailed list of all the property they own, or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportion and see their assets confiscated.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4510688,00.html
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April 18, 2014 2:28pm
mikenmild

Jack5
Not necessarily. I could imagine education campaigns to promote reduced use of other legal substances.
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April 18, 2014 2:32pm
Rowan

http://www.thepaepae.com/wp-uploads/2014/04/Parker_intends_to_appeal.jpg

Some people just never learn do they! hopefully this nutjob will only get himself into further strife by trying to take this further, although it looks like Kent will be bankrupted so not sure how much further he can go. Kent you should have settled this long ago way before it got this far, but no you had to keep fighting it. You have well intruly dug your own grave, with your actions and your big mouth, and deserve everything the courts throw at you. Its a pity (for you) that your so called friends who promised you money have left you high and dry but that just shows you what spineless shits they really are. Time to catch that flight to North Korea!
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April 18, 2014 2:34pm
Jack5

Milkenmild: you mean you would be able to maintain such a vigorous campaign against cigarette smoking without doing the same against marijuana smoking?
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April 18, 2014 2:36pm
mikenmild

I mean that a campaign against marijuana smoking would be fine if justified on health grounds. As I understand it, tobacco is way more harmful.
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April 18, 2014 2:42pm
stephieboy

cha,

This part of the leaflet is interesting,

“According to Alex Tenzer, a Kiev native and one of the directors of the National Association of Immigrants from the Former USSR in Israel, said: “The Jewish-Ukrainian leadership supports Ukraine’s new government, but it’s hard to tell whether the leaflet is valid or simply a provocation.

“Anyway, the material is very anti-Semitic and reminds me of the kind of material distributed by the Nazis in WWII.”

Of course, they’ll be those who will argue that Ynet is a tainted source and already on TM an anti semite there is describing it as a typical American / Jew ploy.

We also need to remind ourselves that despite nearly 70 years of Soviet Communism anti semitism is still present in both countries post 1991. But if authentic it puts many Russians in the Eastern Ukraine in a very bad light.
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April 18, 2014 2:45pm
Jack5

Re anti-Semitism in Eastern Ukraine.

The following article in the Moscow Times suggests that Russia may be fomenting anti-Jewish incidents in the Ukraine in an attempt to brand the present Ukrainian Government as anti-Semitic, like the Ukrainian nationalists who fought alongside the Nazis in World War 2.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-fabricated-anti-semitism-in-ukraine/497950.html
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April 18, 2014 2:52pm
nasska

Jack5

It is a little confusing to compare cannabis with tobacco…..while the latter can kill you & the former won’t one is an intoxicant.

Rather, how would you feel about treating alcohol exactly the same way as marijuana?
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April 18, 2014 2:52pm
publicwatchdog

Hi Kiwibloggers – seen this?

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/five-things-youve-missed-behind-scenes-john-banks-pre-trial-hearings-sf

“Five things you’ve missed behind the scenes of the John Banks’ pre-trial hearings”

My comment – (yet to be published):
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

🙂 Well, I was one of the three people who made a complaint alleging electoral fraud against John Banks.

Had the Police not failed to prosecute John Banks, this case would not have been taken to Court through Graham McCready’s private prosecution, with which I assisted.

(I was the ‘process server’ who served the witness summonses which got Kim Dotcom, his lawyer, (former) bodyguard, and the CEO of Sky City into Court).

PS: I’m usually VERY well-behaved if my LAWFUL rights to freedom of expression are respected, and Auckland Council ‘Standing Orders’ (based upon the underpinning Local Government Official Information and MEETINGS Act 1987) are followed in a proper way.

Kind regards,

Penny Bright

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

(PPS: I, like Graham McCready have receive no public monies for the public interest work I choose do, as a self-funded ‘anti-corruption/anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’.

Have a GREAT Easter! 🙂
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April 18, 2014 2:57pm
mikenmild

nasska
Or vice versa. I can imagine cannabis legalised, but subject to similar controls as we currently have for alcohol. It’d be great for tourism, among other benefits.
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April 18, 2014 2:59pm
Harriet

“……….prohibition obviously hasn’t worked in NZ. Time to either make it work – damned if I know how – or move to a more sensible regime based on letting adults take charge of what substances they use and letting the justice and health systems focus on harm minimisation…….”

With drugs their is usually a dozen or so victims of an addict – the addict alone is not the sole victim of their drug use.

The matter of ‘harm minimisation’ is that it does not take into account the side matters – parents, educators, employers ect watching the young waste more and more time while on drugs, and they themselves then having to spend more and more of their own precious time on the drug addict.

Are you seriously going to believe that once an addict is before the courts or hospital mental crisis team that the problems are all over for those who know the addict? Hardly.

Other addicts even rob and assault others for drugs and/or money creating even more victims.

Cue the idot Collins – and her Victim’s Commissioner.

You will certainly have more addicts if you legalise drugs[I’m not saying they will all be addicts] but as DG agreed with me on:

‘Natural pot’ that the hippies smoked in the 60’s sent no one to the mental wards but now with high strength hydroponics ect, people[more so the young] are suffering from serious mental issues. We read about that in the news all the time.
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April 18, 2014 3:03pm
nasska

That’s the way I’d like to see it too Mike.

But if we are going to prohibit marijuanna just because a few old farts think it is likely to cause the downfall of society let’s ban alcohol too.

That way everyone can be miserable just for no reason at all.
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April 18, 2014 3:04pm
freemark

@ Viking
“I guess you were one of the privileged that was refunded some money from SCF so you think its alright the taxpayer should fund
that handout.

It ain’t the Taxpayers role in life to fund your mistakes”

“The privileged”… and you say you’re not a Socialist? Any spare cash I have after investing in my children’s lunches, shoes, education and wellbeing I would rather invest in things like MRP & Genesis actually.
The failure of SCF was, IMO mainly due to a Socialist (Hubbard) playing with other people’s money to massage his own ego..like most Socialists do. In hindsight allowing SCF to re-enter the scheme was probably a mistake, however the consequences of a failure at that time were far greater than they eventually were. When a large proportion of NZ (the feckless & criminal) are supported by the taxpayer I don’t see it as being a crime when some who have obviously been successful enough to have some cash to invest shouldn’t get some relief as well.
As far as taxpayer funding mistakes..so you agree we should slash DPB, ACC etc as well?
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April 18, 2014 3:05pm
Jack5

Re Nasska, at 2.52, on marijuana v. alcohol:

Sounds like you seek a personal view, so:

I believe alcohol control should be promoted as actively as tobacco control is, and since I think the latter is overdone, that means a bigger education campaign that it is subject to now, but not to the level of tobacco health advertising. I think alcohol sales need tighter control, and that there should be higher duty on it to help the enormous cost it inflicts on health and welfare systems – user pays!

However, if NZ were to institute a Singapore-scale anti-drugs regime, I believe control, duties, and health advertising on alcohol would need to be scaled up still further.

I don’t believe marijuana should be treated the same as alcohol. Alcohol for millennia has been the drug of choice of the West, and I don’t see any need for marijuana or hash or cocaine to supplement it. Alcohol does enough damage without legalising new narcotics.

How would we handle the legalisation of marijuana? Look at the bumbling mess our politicians are making of the control of synthetic drugs. Do we need more fuck-ups like this?
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April 18, 2014 3:06pm
stephieboy

Jack 5,

Its true that Ukrainian Nationalist elements collaborated with the Nazis and many serving as guards e. g in Death camps like Sobibor and Treblinka in Poland.
But its worthwhile to remember also that the Russians had their own Nazi Collaborators,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_collaborationism_with_the_Axis_powers

Many Russians and Ukrainians had become weary of Stalin’s despotism and brutal rule.

I think the Ukrainians are only to fully aware of this shameful aspect of their past and are eager to make amends to the Jewish population among them.
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April 18, 2014 3:07pm
iMP

re the Melbourne woman who groped a man’s bottom on a plane…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/9954434/Good-behaviour-order-after-in-flight-bum-grope

“[the judge] released her on a A$500 (NZ$5434) three-month order…

Gee, I thought the NZ dollar was doing rater better than that.
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April 18, 2014 3:12pm
Harriet

“…..Or vice versa. I can imagine cannabis legalised, but subject to similar controls as we currently have for alcohol. It’d be great for tourism, among other benefits….”

Are you being stupid Mikey?

Backpackers and freedom campers ect contribute fuckall INDIVIDUALY to NZ compared with other types of tourists. They eat noodles and old apples – and drink water. Not all of them but most of them. They are also more than likely to be the drug taking tourists.

It will not be a good look when trying to attract middle and upper class tourists to have it known that NZ is a stoners paradise.

Besides that – their health insurance that they arrive in NZ on will no doubt have anti drug clauses – meaning that the NZ taxpayer is left picking up the full cost if they have an accident while being on drugs.[ I read a piece a while ago about insurance companies wanting hospitals ect to drug and alcohol test policy holders while they are being treated – so they can be refused health care payouts. It’s fair.]
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April 18, 2014 3:12pm
ShawnLH

UrbanNC,

“there is little to no reliable contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus.”

This statement is simply not true. Of course, you would need to define “reliable” but there is enough evidence that no serious scholar today disputes that Jesus lived.

“If you are Christian; why you are not a Muslim? A Zoroastrian? A Daoist? A Buddhist? A Hindu? A Mormon? A Sikh? A Santerian? A Wiccan? A Jew? Do you honestly believe you would not be a follower of one of these other faiths if you had been bought up in it? So how can you honestly hold christian beliefs above or ahead those others?”

I was not brought up as a Christian. I spent several years researching other religions, reading the Koran, the Hindu and Buddhist scriptures, visited a Mosque and two synagogues, even tried Wicca for a while.

At the end of the day they were all interesting, but had deficiencies, especially when it came to the issue of evil, theodicy, which most religions do not have adequate answers for.

But most importantly, none came close to the personal experience I have had of Jesus actually working in me and in my life.

My faith was not handed to me. It came from a mix of intellectual research and personal experience.
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April 18, 2014 3:25pm
meh

Err there’s just been an avalanche on Everest… Where is DPF at the moment?!
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April 18, 2014 3:25pm
stephieboy

Rowan (1,727 comments) says:
April 18th, 2014 at 2:34 pm

Your vindictive and nasty tirade typical of your stock in trade.
No surprises there.
But one thing is for sure the decision certainly wont be putting the compensation claim back on the table. Guest’s revelations and Binnie’s report itself has made doubly sure of that fact.
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April 18, 2014 3:26pm
nasska

….”My faith was not handed to me. It came from a mix of intellectual research and personal experience.”….

More like an overdose of magic mushrooms. 🙂
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April 18, 2014 3:26pm
mikenmild

Shawn, please indulge us with a description of the contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus.
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April 18, 2014 3:27pm
stephieboy

meh,

Avalanche on Everest. Wow.!

its a very big mountain and hopefully Dave was not in the area.
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April 18, 2014 3:29pm
SPC

As to the legitimate exercise of force by an imperial power or those opposing it and the connection to local elites in league with one or the other. As to connection to freedom of religion, freedom from religion and claimed respect for due higher authority and a supposedly historical incident about this issue.

The Sanhedrin representing the Temple cult of Judea and the Pharisees would have both been acutely aware that the Hasmonean era (Alexander Jannaeus) had been a problem for both. And that the Essene promotion of a Messianic age revival could be exploited by zealots resorting to violence against Rome. Any public figure with associations with a national throne ancestry could soon attract nationalist support, regardless of their own position on the relative merits of a militant or pacifist renewal movement. And of course, as with many local elites that sided with the imperial cause against local terrorists, the word terrorist could be used to discredit any local dissident that posed a challenge to their authority.

There are many examples over the years since 9/11 re how this can be exploited by locals in league with imperial power. Moslems advocating for democracy soon portrayed by military or royal rulers as Islamists associated with terrorists. This has posed a problem for the West in so far that its anti-terrorist actions were to be legitimate, and in no way inimical to an emergent democracy in Moslem nations. Yet despite this, local rulers have manipulated public opinion in the imperial West to

1. obtain consent for their suppression of democracy.
2. diminish support from the West for democratic transition.
3. discredit those that threaten established power.

Possibly it is the more Christian of the West that have bought into this local ME ruler tactic (and in both Israel as well as surrounding Arab nations). Israel and the surrounding Arab elites have common interest in there being a real politic understanding whereby democracy is secondary to security.

But ultimately the matter is posed as one of the peoples security, whether it is better that someone who poses a threat to the imperial peace established for the national realm should die, so that the risk goes away. Inferring a problem with the legitimacy of the individual, as one of the religion/national people, is to make this choice more palatable to public opinion. (in Malaysia there was resort to inference that the political dissident was “immoral”/apart from the code of the religious group and or political/legal orthodoxy).
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April 18, 2014 3:31pm
SPC

An avalanche on Everest … first the one going for a long journey during Passover week (eating up all his scroggin) will be reassuring that they have his back when mountaineering stuff like ropes are used but they can count on his mothers status for safety when the frozen water moves.
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April 18, 2014 3:35pm
ShawnLH

“Shawn, please indulge us”

I have a better idea mikey. Go and study Biblical theology at varsity. Get an education, that way you won’t embarrass yourself every time you spout on this issue, as you did above.

And I might engage in a civil debate on the matter, if I didn’t think you were a troll who has zero intentions of wanting contrary information and has zero intentions of seriously engaging with any information that does not square with your world view.

Do some research if you really are interested. I assume you can use Google at least.
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April 18, 2014 3:37pm
Elaycee

@meh: Appears the avalanche was just below Camp 2 on the slopes of Mt Everest itself – well away from our intrepid ‘blogster’ and explorer…

Nepal Tourism Ministry official Madhu Sudan Burlakoti says the avalanche hit the area just below Camp 2 at about midday NZ time.

http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/climbers-feared-missing-after-avalanche-sweeps-mt-everest-5935747
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April 18, 2014 3:39pm

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