General Debate 27 April 2014

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SPC

Kea, is your goal, an attack on religious support in the West for Israel so Arabs can then destroy the state.
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April 27, 2014 9:32pm
ShawnLH

Newt Gingrich Tells the Truth About the Palestinian Non-Entity:

“One of the most incorrigible fallacies pertaining to the Middle East is the notion that the Palestinians are entitled to a state of their own. This fallacy stems from the misconception that there is a nation of ‘Palestinians’, and to the extent that such a nation exists, this name is an accurate representation of the Arabs who live in modern Israel. This artful manipulation of the geopolitical lexicon was meant to bestow upon a group of random Arabs a false sense of geographical ties to the Holy Land.

In 1977, during an interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw, PLO Executive Committee member Zuheir Mohsen described the stratagem as this:

“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.”

This delusion is no trivial matter. For years, the left wing foreign policy establishment has rapturously promoted the ‘Palestinians’ as the cause célèbre of our national security interests. Instead of focusing on the real threats to our national security (such as those who, incidentally, fund the so-called Palestinians), the foreign policy establishment has singularly focused on creating a state for the most virulently anti-American people on the face of the planet. Their maniacal fixation on the Palestinians has left them devoid of solutions regarding the broader turmoil in the Middle East.

The first step in undoing this foreign policy mess is for the next president to deracinate the entire myth of a ‘Palestinian people’. Kudos to Newt Gingrich for finally telling the truth about the geopolitical cause célèbre of all the world’s imbeciles.”

http://www.redstate.com/diary/dhorowitz3/2011/12/10/newt-gingrich-tells-the-truth-about-the-palestinian-non-entity/
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April 27, 2014 9:35pm
All_on_Red

Either that or wanting the Arabs to try so Israel nukes them back to the Stone Age …
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April 27, 2014 9:36pm
Kea

ShawnLH, the Nazi persecuted people on race and religion. Just as you do Arabs and Muslims.

The Nazi wanted a monocultural state for the supremacist master race. Jews have actually got one !

But Israel needs a host to feed on. It has bleed the US dry for years. Trillions in aid and trillions more killing anyone who does not worship Jews suitably. When the host dies so will the parasites. It has already begun. Sorry about that 🙂

Good news though ! They can simply return home to Russia, Europe, the USA and all the places they really came from if they want. Jews, Muslims and others have lived in the region for thousands of years together. They can continue to do so, minus the whole Master Race thing. So all is not lost.
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April 27, 2014 9:41pm
SPC

ShawnLH, the 1977 interview with Zuheir Mohsen mentions Palestine/anti-Zionism as a device for Arab unity – is that because it is the only thing that does unite them? Because there is no unity within the Arab world?
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April 27, 2014 9:42pm
SPC

Kea, is there any Arab nation where Christians are not being persecuted? One would imagine that in the modern world the lack of safety and the guarantees of secure liberty provided by a liberal democracy would mean the ME would now be too backward to retain many Jews, if Israel did not exist.
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April 27, 2014 9:46pm
Kea

What claim have Jews got to exclusive occupation of Israel ?

1. Religious fables they wrote themselves !

2. Some died in a war that killed 70 million in EUROPE, so they can have some ARAB land ! LOL 🙂

What utter nonsense. Of course Jews can live there. But so can Muslims, Hindus and the original people like zoroastrians. They have no right to have exclusive domain. The idea a born and bred Russian can have more right to live there than a person whos family have lived there for generations is absurd.
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April 27, 2014 9:48pm
UglyTruth

Newt Gingrich Tells the Truth About the Palestinian Non-Entity:

The Zionist “truth”, that is.

This artful manipulation of the geopolitical lexicon was meant to bestow upon a group of random Arabs a false sense of geographical ties to the Holy Land.

After years of research, Misinai says that he can declare with certainty that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews. “And what’s more, about half of them know it,” he says. Not only that, many Palestinians retain Jewish customs, including mourning rituals, lighting Shabbat or memorial candles and even wearing tefillin.

http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews
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April 27, 2014 9:50pm
Kea

“Kea, is there any Arab nation where Christians are not being persecuted? ”

Like Christians are being persecuted in Israel ? Not sure, but I have not heard of Arabs spitting on Christian clergy or beating up a 70 year old lady in her home because they “suspected” she was Christian.
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April 27, 2014 9:50pm
Kea

“Kea, is your goal, an attack on religious support in the West for Israel so Arabs can then destroy the state.”

LOL 🙂

Please tell us more god boy. I love conspiracy theories.

Actually I just want the war and killing to stop along with religious persecution. A hint was me actually saying that repeatedly time and time again. Along with saying I oppose ALL religion as a harmful cancer of the mind.
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April 27, 2014 9:53pm
Reid

Apparently Shawn really did get his theology degree in the mail, probably from the Philippines, for $9.95; because the person who founded the cufi site he linked to above, John Hagee, preaches a false zionist anti-Christ gospel to Jews and Christians. I mean google him yourself, if you doubt this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJg5hnxvBB0

plus he makes satanic signals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXyZcgDg8nk

or maybe that’s a coincidence. Or maybe not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3IKtguTYus

Now I of course aren’t mental, like Shawn is. Unlike Shawn, my logic is sound, so just because Shawn’s apparently linked to a site founded by someone who loves Satan, this DOES NOT MEAN that Shawn is a satanist. Of course if I’d done that then naturally Shawn’s logic would mean, naturally, that I’m a satanist. But remember, I’m NOT Shawn and I use proper logic, not Shawn’s logic, so all this means is, Shawn’s gone completely mental in trying so hard to prove his point he’s lost all reason whatsoever. Possibly he’s even pooed his pants, but I’m only speculating there.

Luckily he won’t be offended because he won’t be reading this.
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April 27, 2014 9:55pm
SGA

SPC at 9:42 pm

… is that because it is the only thing that does unite them? Because there is no unity within the Arab world?

Why should there be? The “unity” of modern europe is very new, isn’t it? And at the expense of many, many wars, two in just the last century that cost millions and millions of lives. How fragile that unity, I wonder.
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April 27, 2014 9:55pm
ShawnLH

DEBUNKING ANTI-ISRAELI MYTHS

MYTH: “The Jews have no claim to the land they call Israel.”

FACT: A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, the Jews suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.

The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people; 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.

Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the Land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea. The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years.

By the early 19th century—years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement—more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.1 The 78 years of nation-building, beginning in 1870, culminated in the reestablishment of the Jewish State.

Israel’s international “birth certificate” was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel’s admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel’s people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence.

MYTH: “Palestine was always an Arab country.”

FACT: The term “Palestine” is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C.E., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what are now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century C.E., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word Filastin is derived from this Latin name. 3

Map of British Mandate

The Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E., living under a tribal confederation until being united under the first monarch, King Saul. The second king, David, established Jerusalem as the capital around 1000 B.C.E. David’s son, Solomon, built the Temple soon thereafter and consolidated the military, administrative and religious functions of the kingdom. The nation was divided under Solomon’s son, with the northern kingdom (Israel) lasting until 722 B.C.E., when the Assyrians destroyed it, and the southern kingdom (Judah) surviving until the Babylonian conquest in 586 B.C.E. The Jewish people enjoyed brief periods of sovereignty afterward until most Jews were finally driven from their homeland in 135 C.E.

Jewish independence in the Land of Israel lasted for more than 400 years. This is much longer than Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States. 4 In fact, if not for foreign conquerors, Israel would be more than 3,000 years old today.

Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most of the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: “There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history, absolutely not.”5

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds. 6

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: “There is no such country as Palestine! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.” 7 The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations echoed this view in a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947, which said Palestine was part of the Province of Syria and the Arabs of Palestine did not comprise a separate political entity. A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria.” 8

Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War.

MYTH: “Arabs in Palestine suffered because of Jewish settlement.”

FACT: For many centuries, Palestine was a sparsely populated, poorly cultivated and widely-neglected expanse of eroded hills, sandy deserts and malarial marshes. As late as 1880, the American consul in Jerusalem reported the area was continuing its historic decline. “The population and wealth of Palestine has not increased during the last forty years,” he said. 12

The Report of the Palestine Royal Commission quotes an account of the Maritime Plain in 1913:

The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport by camels and carts . . . no orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached [the Jewish village of] Yabna [Yavne]. . . . Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere to be seen. . . . The ploughs used were of wood. . . . The yields were very poor. . . . The sanitary conditions in the village were horrible. Schools did not exist. . . . The western part, towards the sea, was almost a desert. . . . The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted by their inhabitants. 13

Surprisingly, many people who were not sympathetic to the Zionist cause believed the Jews would improve the condition of Palestinian Arabs. For example, Dawood Barakat, editor of the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram, wrote: “It is absolutely necessary that an entente be made between the Zionists and Arabs, because the war of words can only do evil. The Zionists are necessary for the country: The money which they will bring, their knowledge and intelligence, and the industriousness which characterizes them will contribute without doubt to the regeneration of the country.” 14

Even a leading Arab nationalist believed the return of the Jews to their homeland would help resuscitate the country. According to Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia:

The resources of the country are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants. One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him, though his ancestors had lived on it for 1000 years. At the same time we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons (abna’ihi-l-asliyin), for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles (jaliya) to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually [to be] an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and in all things connected with toil and labor. 15

As Hussein foresaw, the regeneration of Palestine, and the growth of its population, came only after Jews returned in massive numbers.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFroots.html
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April 27, 2014 9:58pm
SPC

SGA, it is not so much, the why should there be unity, as there being those who cite the Palestinian cause as the means to unity. Thus one Palestinian posed himself as less than a nationalist freedom fighter and more as someone working in a cause that all Arabs should support.
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April 27, 2014 10:02pm
SPC

Reid, any figure posed as coming to the earth to rule and reign over humanity to fulfil bible prophecy is a false Christ. People who fight over which false Christ of the end time is the “real one”, should do some remedial reading classes.

Deists reign, theists misread the bible.
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April 27, 2014 10:12pm
Left Right and Centre

Kea – do you think the 9:58pm post qualifies as ‘Gish Gallop’ ?
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April 27, 2014 10:18pm
SPC

Kea, so you cannot name an Arab nation where Christians are not persecuted.

As you say, Jews have to maintain higher standards than others if they are not to be singled out for criticism for their treatment of religious minorities.
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April 27, 2014 10:20pm
Reid

Reid, any figure posed as coming to the earth to rule and reign over humanity to fulfil bible prophecy is a false Christ. People who fight over which false Christ of the end time is the “real one”, should do some remedial reading classes.

SPC, can you please explicate, I’m not sure what you’re saying.

See, Hagee denies Christ was the messiah. I’m guessing that he does that because he doesn’t want the Jews to feel bad about killing him. I don’t agree with any of that, as no Christian would, I’m very sure Shawn wouldn’t either. But of course Shawn would pretend that’s precisely what I believed if I’d been unfortunate enough to link to a site that Hagee founded. But I don’t bear false witness. That’s part of my faith.

If you don’t believe Hagee denies Christ is and was the messiah, then here’s some excerpts from his book. Don’t worry about the warning that appears, the video plays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=podfHtGB4SY
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April 27, 2014 10:21pm
Left Right and Centre

Kea – if you were not labelled a troll on KB – would you take that as a hint that you need to lift your game ? Is being called a troll a mark of intellectual distinction ? I don’t see too many others called trolls – is it like being told one sits in the B+ and higher range ?
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April 27, 2014 10:26pm
stephieboy

Speaking of things poverty and food stamps kea ,Russia has one of the lowest minimum living wages (23rd out of 27) in Europe that is below the poverty line,

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20131122/184873012/Russian-Parliament-Leaves-Minimum-Wage-Below-Poverty-Line.html

You can rant and grunt on about ultra Orthodox Jews in Israel but fortunately, naturally, they don’t reflect official government policy. The place would be impossible to govern like here with Shias and Sunnis at each other’s throats that you pretend doesn’t exist or lets blame the Jews

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10789765/Syrias-bloodshed-spills-into-Iraq-as-al-Qaeda-bombs-Shia-militant-rally.html

http://www.gloria-center.org/2013/04/the-main-battle-in-the-middle-east-is-among-muslims-sunni-vs-shia-arabs-vs-persians/
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April 27, 2014 10:33pm
CharlieBrown

Far out dunne is a hypocritical c*nt – sitting there drinking his chardonnay whilst he bans other forms of getting high. Hes happy to drive the problem he made worse out of sight to the black market. I don’t remember seeing any of these problems with BZP.
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April 27, 2014 10:39pm
Reid

Far out dunne is a hypocritical c*nt – sitting there drinking his chardonnay whilst he bans other forms of getting high.

What I don’t get is if they can do it now then why did they have to munt around with the testing regime before they did this?

It’s not as if Dunne has ever said he wanted them, he has always said the technical difficulty in definition meant it was simply impossible, period so we had, reluctantly, to live with this halfway less-than-ideal house. But now it seems they’ve come up with something else, so what pray tell have they just thought of that they didn’t think of before?
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April 27, 2014 10:44pm
Left Right and Centre

Ask Rick Sanchez, Norman Finkelstein or Helen Thomas what happens to journalists or academics who don’t tow the line.

Tom is a lot smarter than me. But I know it’s ‘toe the line’. Designed to catch people out that one.
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April 27, 2014 10:46pm
SPC

Reid, it does not matter how and why they seek to justify their end time false Christ/Messiah figure to come and rule and reign from Zion. The bible is clear on it, if a person was a man of God he would claim Zion was where God is King, not any man. And no it does not say that those who believe in a man being God can expect him to return to fulfil expectations of a Messiah ruling in/from a place on earth. Those who pose a spirituality to their faith are supposed to understand it on another plane.
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April 27, 2014 10:48pm
SPC

Left, Right and Center, I prefer tow, if they keep towing the net then the public will be gathered like fish then slaughtered like sheep (collected votes on poll day).
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April 27, 2014 10:53pm
Left Right and Centre

You can tow the line if you want SPC – hey – it’s a free universe. Well – our part of the universe is sort of free.

The ongoing KB Reid-Shawn mismatch. I’m picturing Darth Vader using ‘force choke’ on Admiral Motti in the original. Seriously – it’s at least that level of OMFG
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April 27, 2014 11:14pm
Left Right and Centre

Religion and climate issue = KB smalltalk. It’s KB for howdy doody.

What the fuck did I learn from KB today ? I really couldn’t get into Jews and Muslims and religious nonsense. It might as well be a LOTR fansite FFS.

Millions of years of evolution from hominid to modern humans. Religion is a relatively new and short-lived idea so far.
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April 27, 2014 11:27pm
SPC

Reid, the F35’s seem very expensive, but the trillion dollar cost is for 2500 planes, the article you linked to mentions the number of that going to the navy (dropping from 69 to 36 so the navy can still afford ships with that order), not the total.
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April 27, 2014 11:28pm
SPC

Does anyone regard the Palestinians “right of return” as a natural right?

Or regard the Israelis “law of return” as a “natural law”?
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April 28, 2014 12:01am
UglyTruth

A Natural Right is something that is universal and cannot be removed or given away or sold to another

According to Black’s:
Natural rights. Those which grow out of nature of man and depend upon his personality and are distinguished from those which are created by positive laws enacted by a duly constituted government to create an orderly civilized society.

Natural rights are also called inalienable rights, which are rights which cannot be removed with out the consent of the person. The personality here involves the Creator of the man, not the state, and the dictionary definitions suggest that a man can be alienated from his natural rights if he intentionally voids his relationship with his creator.

Does anyone regard the Palestinians “right of return” as a natural right?

The right of return exists because of the Abrahamic covenant rather than any natural right. The covenant only applies to the descendants of Abraham, and is not conditional on religion or culture, i.e. Muslims descended from Abraham have the right of return as well as people of Jewish lineage.
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April 28, 2014 9:49am
questions

So, Mugabe at the canonization ceremony, anyone ok with that?
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April 28, 2014 1:53pm
thedavincimode

kowtow & lucy
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April 28, 2014 1:58pm
wikiriwhis business

Tent family ‘have themselves to blame’

This has gone political. Labour is not going to let a family live in a tent during a political year.

Dad’s timing was perfect to hit the media. Not saying anything but yeah well…..
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April 28, 2014 5:09pm
wikiriwhis business

“What if I had donated $1000 to Cunliffe’s campaign? That would generate news and attention. But imagine if I said I did so because Cunliffe is European and I want to encourage European leadership.”

Whites have been running the country since 1840 rascally as. They don’t need encouragement. They signed a treaty then went to war to grab land anyway. They definitely don’t need encouragement.
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April 28, 2014 5:12pm
SPC

Ugly Truth, if the rights are natural, as per the nature of man, how can they be voided by lack of relationship with a Creator? To be natural they cannot be premised on any continuing contractual relationship, especially when one party does not make/has not made its existence open to scrutiny – thus leaves it dependent on an initiation and continuance based on faith.

Faith, no less than government is a new regime (something more than nature of man/natural law). If one poses that it is in the nature of man to have faith, it could also be said that there is also something in the nature of man to be part of community and construct government.

The existence of the Abrahamic covenant does not mean it was/is between God and Abraham/Abrahams descendants. Clearly there is effectively an oath/word before God (on behalf of the people) to be God’s people – something they saw as necessitating the people being in their own homeland separate from others. I agree, as this oath is placed at a time before the law was given, that it does not prescribe any particular religion or culture or law. Of course people now identify by their religious identity, and can easily conclude that they can be part of God’s people through their religion wherever they live. It is the more secular or deist descendant of Abraham who would see their homeland nationality, as per the covenant, as instructive. Thus modern Zionism, albeit tempered by the divergent identity of the non Jewish descendants of Abraham and religious Zionists seeking to take over the state of Israel to make it a vehicle of their own (they do this as they see the secular world as something to separate from, but as the state of Israel is also a home to secular Jews this thinking is flawed).
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April 28, 2014 5:50pm
UglyTruth

Ugly Truth, if the rights are natural, as per the nature of man, how can they be voided by lack of relationship with a Creator?

Because in general for every right there is a correlative duty. In theory when a man consciously abandons those correlative duties then he has alienated the Creator and consequently his natural rights become void.

The definiton from Black’s uses the phrase: “and depend upon his personality”, i.e it is with man’s power to make the rights void.

The existence of the Abrahamic covenant does not mean it was/is between God and Abraham/Abrahams descendants.

Yes, his descendants were the beneficiaries rather than the parties to the covenant.

… something they saw as necessitating the people being in their own homeland separate from others.

Inheritance of land doesn’t imply any duty to live there.

Of course people now identify by their religious identity, and can easily conclude that they can be part of God’s people through their religion wherever they live.

Yes, although covenant of the land and the Mosaic covenant are two separate things.
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April 28, 2014 6:26pm
wiseowl

And now Dunne is on with the live guy again waving his arms around and making out he has been doing so much work on this legal high stuff.What an arrogant sod.

Please Ohariu people ,get rid of this guy this year.
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April 28, 2014 7:22pm

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