Planet Labour

April 3rd, 2014 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

3 News reports:

leader David Cunliffe is adamant he and his party will both start rising in the polls as the election approaches.

He is also casting doubt on recent statistics suggesting crime is at a three-decade low, and an IMF report which named New Zealand’s economy as one of the world’s fastest-growing.

So on Planet Labour the polls are wrong, the crime stats are wrong, the GDP stats are wrong and the IMF is wrong.

I’d like to visit this dimension one day.

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96 Responses to “Planet Labour”

  1. radvad (747 comments) says:

    How is it possible that 8% of the population want this blowhard for Prime Minister? Incredible.

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  2. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    Is this the McCarten influence? Going negative on everything isn’t surprising but it will be surprising if it works.

    I’d like to visit this dimension one day.

    Go to The Standard, they are saying you’re wrong all the time there.

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  3. virtualmark (1,510 comments) says:

    DPF, just pick up a map of how to get there from TV3. They arrived on Planet Labour a long time ago.

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  4. Nostalgia-NZ (5,097 comments) says:

    It’s also snowing in Auckland.

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  5. ShawnLH (4,482 comments) says:

    I’m beginning to like Cunliffe. Every time he opens his mouth his credibility takes another nose dive. :)

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  6. tas (611 comments) says:

    When you hit rock bottom you can only go up.

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  7. burt (8,201 comments) says:

    I’d like to visit this dimension one day.

    The entry fee to this dimension is to claim that socialism works, we never run out of other peoples money, and that increasing taxation and redistribution works. Just ignore that such things have always failed and always end in recession. That’s the barrier to entry – you need to discard reality and live in la la land.

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  8. Cunningham (837 comments) says:

    It’s actually embarassing to watch this guy continually talk BS all the time. Why does he have to lie again and again? Is it so hard to give some credit where it is due? I know they are the opposition but saying every single statistic is wrong just makes him look foolish.

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  9. big bruv (13,674 comments) says:

    I just wonder who Cuntliffe is trying to appeal to here?. Yes it might be the deranged haters at the Standard (the way that the nutbars over there maintain such a level of hate astounds me, it is a huge waste of energy and time) but most of them are so far to the left that what they want will never happen.

    It is almost as if Cuntliffe is going out of his way to be nasty, is this a plan put in place by his campaign manager (surely nobody really believe that McCarten is the COS) or are we starting to see the real Cuntliffe that so many in his caucus dislike with a passion.

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  10. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Oh dear.

    And how many political commentators have made similar predictions about polls, only to be made to look like fools.

    One would have thought by now that predicting the future is a very shady business, especially when it involves the polls.

    We have six months to go, some 26 odd weeks. Can you really predict whether Ms Collins might get a thirst for another glass of milk, or some MP will have a ‘do you know who I am’ moment, or produce a dead snapper?

    Anything is possible with polls, and to bank your reputation on it, well, lets just say its too early in the morning to be a ‘whiskey effect’.

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  11. burt (8,201 comments) says:

    Has Cunliffe got Brian Edwards advising him ? This self destruction is looking remarkably like the stupidity of Labour going into the 2008 election saying it’s all about trusts.

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  12. ShawnLH (4,482 comments) says:

    “When you hit rock bottom you can only go up.”

    In fairly sure that Cunliffe is going to defy this rule and actually manage to dig himself lower.

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  13. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    Yes it might be the deranged haters at the Standard (the way that the nutbars over there maintain such a level of hate astounds me, it is a huge waste of energy and time) but most of them are so far to the left that what they want will never happen.

    And at The Standard:

    Yes it might be the deranged haters at Kiwiblog (the way that the nutbars over there maintain such a level of hate astounds me, it is a huge waste of energy and time) but most of them are so far to the right that what they want will never happen.

    Ok, I made that up but it’s representative of common comments there.

    There’s more than a smidgen of accuracy in both versions.

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  14. radvad (747 comments) says:

    Judith
    Did you happen to notice that blowhard Cunliffe does not believe the crime stats or the IMF. Are you really suggesting that is smart politics?

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  15. tvb (4,325 comments) says:

    Cunliffe does believe in facts he lives in a fantasy world. This will not help him. It seems Cunliffe will be running the campaign from Parliament with the Party organisation and the Unions supplying the ground troops. All of this will be masterminded by McCarten control. Does not bode well for happy times. National will run like clockwork but there is room for trouble. The teacup incident in the last campaign is a case in point. I hope lessons were learned.

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  16. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (871 comments) says:

    Don’t under estimate Chief of Staff. NZ Herald reports:

    “Labour leader David Cunliffe has ejected MPs from the caucus room to turn it into a war room, moving all key political staff into a vast open-plan office.

    The new strategy office is the brain-child of chief of staff Matt McCarten and is aimed at making sure the party is co-ordinated and quick on its feet. Labour MPs will now be sent downstairs to a smaller room for their weekly meetings.

    The traditional Opposition caucus room on the third floor of Parliament House is now the office space for about 18 staff from the Labour leader’s office, including its research unit and its communications and media teams. There are also “hot desks” for the directors of those units to work from when needed.

    A spokesman for Mr Cunliffe said it was to make communication easier and ensure Labour could react swiftly to unfolding political situations, as well as giving MPs a one-stop place to go to discuss issues.”

    John Key and National should be worried about these smart moves…..

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  17. dime (9,789 comments) says:

    keep going Cunliffe. you can get to 1% by September!

    grow back the beard too. chicks LOVE the beard!

    and use the fake PI accent too! its not condescending. It will win back the church vote.

    and keep telling us how youre a battler! NO ONE should have to struggle through life on 700 stacks a year

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  18. Simon (694 comments) says:

    Looking forward to Labour’s capital gain tax to punish evil speculators but exempting the family home including Cunnlife’s $2.5 million “do up”

    What a rank amateur.

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  19. Nostalgia-NZ (5,097 comments) says:

    ravdad he only knows one way forward, criticism. As for the crime stats better that he applaud them and say that Labour would look to get to work on bringing down the one which is out of kilter – sexual offences. Poor politics, especially when the ‘widening gap’ polls are begging to be taken advantage of. He got a break to some extent while Collins was under the hammer, had a chance to steady himself but appears to have gone back to slipping and sliding again this week – his off the comment to a heckler abusing him this week showed he can be a quick thinker, something which might resonate better across the electorate that being negative.

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  20. Brian Smaller (4,007 comments) says:

    “When you hit rock bottom you can only go up.”

    In fairly sure that Cunliffe is going to defy this rule and actually manage to dig himself lower.

    If he did keep digging that will upset his coalition partner because they are very opposed to mining.

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  21. Reid (16,227 comments) says:

    There’s more than a smidgen of accuracy in both versions.

    Yes. The thing is though, the truth is not in the middle, it’s to the right of the middle. For example most people in the middle of NZ really truly does believe for example, that we have 300k children in poverty. They really really do.

    This is partly because most of them haven’t bothered to think about it too hard they’re just part of the 6-700k who still tune in to TV news night after night after night and hallucinate they’re informed. It’s also partly because when Hulun was in power she bodily picked up the entire NZ electorate and using endlessly repeated propaganda and lies such as “the failed policies of the 90’s” for one tiny example, literally shifted the whole thing leftward by more than several degrees. As a result, as a country we’re much much further left than Australia is, than the US, than the UK. Canada is close behind us.

    What this means therefore is that if you’re one of those people who think the answer to a political issue lies in the crowd, which I’m not but if you are, the “correct answer” is no longer what most people think: in the middle, but rather whatever the opinion is a few degrees toward the conservative side.

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  22. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ radvad (611 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 9:25 am

    The only thing that I think is smart about David Cunliffe is one particular suit he has that makes him look less of a dweeb. Its a nice and well tailored garment.

    Do not be mistaken, I am no fan of David Cunliffe, and I have very little respect for him at this point in time. But I am astute enough to know that politics, like people is in a temporary condition at all times, and therefore refuse to play the game that so many seem to do, and that is put all emphasis on the leaders.

    A leader is only as good as the team he has supporting him, in my opinion.

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  23. marcw (242 comments) says:

    Why are Parliament’s facilities being used as an election headquarters? This must not be in the rules – time for some of the officials to grow some and stand up for the taxpayer.

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  24. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ radvad (611 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 9:25 am

    Regarding the crime stats (and NO I am not supporting Cunliffe here).

    Crime stats are interesting things, and like most of stats, can be used to win or lose all sorts of arguments. Believing that the stats released this week provide a complete picture, is a very foolish thing to do. There are many variables that effect them, such as police target areas, lack of reporting of certain crimes, public campaigns that make some crimes reported more, and so on. There are many more variables to it that I haven’t mentioned.

    I disagree with the way they are used as being the total picture – the majority of the public are ignorant to the real issues and are fooled by them, which is why are used, but really, its dishonest politics in my opinion.

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  25. mandk (954 comments) says:

    The ghastly thing about the Labour dimension is that the only news that makes people happy is bad news.
    Can you imagine the glee if the next HLFS showed that unemployment had increased to 7%?

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  26. davidp (3,576 comments) says:

    David Cunliffe lives in the Matrix.

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  27. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    Judith
    If you go the Police website they have a detailed breakdown of the crime stats over the last 10 years along with what each category covers. You and Cunliffe can equivocate all you want about making the stats show what they want – you cannot deny the steady downward trend since National has been in office (in contrast to the upward trend of many stats in the later part of Labour’s tenure).

    McCarten thinks because Obama went negative and nasty and told lies that it will work for Cunliffe. That works when your opponent has too much baggage (as Romney had) and you don’t have much good news to tell about the economy as was the case for Obama. Key is eminently more formidable politically than Romney with very little baggage and he’s defending a robustly growing economy that is recognized internationally as a top performer.

    When your polling sucks, your policies are easily fisked, debunked or mishandled and you can’t land any effective blows on your opponent, what is left but lies, distortions, negativity, obfuscation and blind hope that the media won’t notice.

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  28. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    “Planet Labour” is about 5m by 3m and has padded walls.

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  29. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    @Judith “…dishonest politics in my opinion.”

    Really? Like Cunliffe saying that “the regions are all struggling”.
    He singled out Taranaki and that is one of the *top*-performing regions.

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  30. freethinker (688 comments) says:

    I am reliably informed that on planet Labour money does grow on trees – evidenced by the fact Banks have “Branches”

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  31. tvb (4,325 comments) says:

    Sir Cullen I find your posts most amusing. I presume moving staff into the caucus room will help turn out the 800,000 lost Labour voters and win Labour the election. And all those flying pigs will be used to transmit messages to the troops like homing pigeons. Another smart Mccarten idea to boost security to get around the GCSB.

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  32. ShawnLH (4,482 comments) says:

    “you cannot deny the steady downward trend since National has been in office (in contrast to the upward trend of many stats in the later part of Labour’s tenure). ”

    Agreed. Claiming “stats can show anything” is not really a valid point.

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  33. James Stephenson (2,143 comments) says:

    There’s more than a smidgen of accuracy in both versions.

    Oh bollocks is there. There’s very little “hate” directed leftwards from here. The overall tone of the Stranded, is that any politician wearing a blue tie, and anyone who votes for them, is evil and deliberately out to “get” the “poor”.

    The overall tone of Kiwiblog, is that the Labour party are a bunch of idiots who couldn’t organise the proverbial in a brewery because the shandy-drinkers and chardonnay crowd are in charge and they’re neglecting their traditional beer drinkers. Hate, no, derision, absolutely.

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  34. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    ““you cannot deny the steady downward trend since National has been in office (in contrast to the upward trend of many stats in the later part of Labour’s tenure). ”

    Yep. Welfare numbers and crime are down under National.
    Crime was up under Labour.

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  35. NoCash (257 comments) says:

    I swear I saw a pig flying this morning.

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  36. Euan (2 comments) says:

    I think living on Planet Labour would be like living in the Vodaphone red home after the explosion!

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  37. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ kiwi in america (2,316 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 10:02 am

    If you go to other similar websites for western countries, you will find similar trends.

    If you are silly enough to believe that JK’s politics has reached so far as to influence their crime trends, then good on you. Nothing I can say will make you think otherwise!

    As I said, there are many variables to crime stats. Interpreting them in one way without having all the information is stupid, but that is your right, so don’t let me stop you -

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  38. freedom101 (492 comments) says:

    Cunliffe’s timing on Shearer was perfect. If he had left it another 6 months then he would have had a chance of conning a lot of people. But he’s left enough time between then and the election for us to get to know him better.

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  39. srylands (404 comments) says:

    “There’s more than a smidgen of accuracy in both versions.”

    Yes I say bollocks to that too. There is a high level of hatred, bile, and general rudeness at The Standard that you just don’t get at Kiwiblog on sustained basis.

    I know irrationality is in the eye of the beholder, but their maintenance of the Government as being “extreme right wing” and hating and ignoring the poor is such a fantasy.

    I have been stalked online by two of them. I have been threatened with hanging.

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  40. georgebolwing (768 comments) says:

    Labour’s campaign is based on a simple premise: things are bad, and will get worse under National but better under Labour.

    Any facts that get in the way of this premise must be challanged.

    Labour’s problem is that there is a mounting body of evidence that things are getting better under National. Manufacturing is not in a crisis (the figures clearly show it is growing strongly); the export sector is not being destroyed by the high dollar; public services are not in crisis (for example, the story on Morning Report yesterday and today that we now have an oversupply of young doctors, in part becuase new grads are staying in New Zealand and not moving to Australia and the UK); employment is up and unemployment is down; crime is down.

    Notice that Cunliffle has had to change his story: he is not just saying “things are bad”, he is saying “things really are bad, and the facts that suggest things are good are wrong”. Explaining is losing.

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  41. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    srylands – I’ve seen it all here too, and although it comes and goes also on a sustained basis.

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  42. RightNow (6,973 comments) says:

    “When you hit rock bottom you can only go up.”

    In fairly sure that Cunliffe is going to defy this rule and actually manage to dig himself lower.

    It’s just more “do as I say not what I do”. They only say they’re against mining.

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  43. Fisiani (1,025 comments) says:

    Parliamentary staff are not allowed to work on political campaigns during their working hours. McCarten is breaking the rules yet again. Not only with this but being a Campaign manager which is unfundable by Parliament but called a chief of Staff which is fundable.

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  44. David Garrett (6,989 comments) says:

    Crime stats can indeed be manipulated…by area; by type of crime; by reporting rate, or resolution rate.

    But a few things stand out from the graph for violent crime (Crime) DPF published here the other day.

    1. Crime increased markedly from 2006;

    2. Crime peaked in 2009, and then began a sharp decline;

    3. There has been a steady decrease in Crime rates since that peak.

    4. During a period of full employment between 2002 and 2005, Crime rates were largely static.

    What does this tell us? Well one thing that stands out for me as much as the sharp decline from 2009 is the fact that during a time of full employment Crime rates were static, neither falling nor rising. If the “poverty causes crime” theory held any water, it should have been falling at a time of full employment. It wasn’t.

    Secondly, the peak occurred in 2009, after the Nat-Act government was elected the previous year on a strong law and order platform, and thereafter the rising trend of the previous three years sharply reversed. So what happened around 2009?

    One non political factor that I think is very significant is the Parole Board becoming very much tougher after Graeme Burton’s rampage in February 2007. That would not have had much immediate effect, but from 2007 parole became much harder to get, and was revoked far more readily. Then you had the suite of legislative measures the Nat-Act government passed in 2009-10 culminating in 3S.

    Much as I would like to claim 3S is the reason for the sharp decline, the stats don’t support that argument…the decline was happening for at least 12 months prior. But then I never claimed it would be a magic bullet. What CAN be readily argued is after the Nat-Act government was elected there was a reversal – albeit a fairly timid one – of the “treat criminals as victims too” philosophy that had been government policy for 20 years or more. There are also the many positive initiatives such as more drug treatment places in prisons, and Drug Courts, and they have got to have a positive effect.

    Lastly, for Cunliffe to claim Crime rates aren’t falling sharply is just silly – they are, and to a significant degree. He would do much better to try and come up with some alternative explanation(s) for that phenomenon than the measures put in place from 2009.

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  45. Nookin (3,267 comments) says:

    The portal to this dimension is readily available if you are so inclined. Most people call it a sphincter.

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  46. tvb (4,325 comments) says:

    There will be many more flying pigs waiting for their instructions from McCarten to take messages out into the field.

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  47. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    There is a high level of hatred, bile, and general rudeness at The Standard that you just don’t get at Kiwiblog on sustained basis.

    I have to presume that is nothing but a joke. Really, you can’t possibly be that blind. There is bile and venom flying all over the place here too. None so blind as them that cannot see.

    This entire campaign reflects the sad state of politics in this country – and that is on both sides – from where I sit they are all as bad as each each when it comes to forgetting what they are actually here for, not to mention everyone acting like pathetic school yard bullies.

    This campaign is getting dirtier by the minute – I actually believe it will reach even greater depths of human nature than we saw in the campaign to get rid of Helen. It would not surprise me at all to actually see some sort of blood shed in this one, such are the seemingly vicious and extreme emotions involved ON BOTH LEFT AND RIGHT.

    We have begun the decent – and its a real slippery slope from here.

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  48. David Garrett (6,989 comments) says:

    Judith: Utter and complete bollocks…as usual – with a few rare and notable exceptions.

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  49. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (5,048 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 11:21 am

    Thank you for that very good summary. Well done, I’m actually hard pushed to find anything to critique you over. Bugger, don’t ya just hate it when that happens!! ;-)

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  50. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    We have begun the decent – and its a real slippery slope from here.

    Not quite. It’s a descent. And it ain’t looking pretty.

    DG – there’s a lot of worthwhile contributions, but there’s a heap of crap here too. Some are as blind to it here as they are at The Standard.

    But the standard set at the top of our politics is not flash, it’s no wonder some party activists also think that anything is acceptable in order to achieve victory.

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  51. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (5,049 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 11:50 am

    Really? You truly believe that people on this blog do not resort to hateful comments and treat each other politely, as opposed to the ‘general rudeness’ of the Standard? Oh pull the other one!!

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  52. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Pete George (21,734 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 11:53 am
    Not quite. It’s a descent. And it ain’t looking pretty.

    Yeah, a bit like my spelling ! :-)

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  53. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    “their maintenance of the Government as being “extreme right wing”

    Yep – typical nonsense by the Stranded there srylands.
    *Any* government other than a Labour government is called “extreme right-wing” by the lefties.

    If the government were even a *little* bit right-wing they would have axed Working for Families.
    If they were right wing they would have axed the DPB too.
    Both of those things would be excellent for the country but the Nats haven’t done them.

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  54. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    @Judith – “people on this blog do not resort to hateful comments …”

    Put it this way. On a scale of 1 to 10 (where 10 is unbridled hatred) Kiwiblog would struggle to get to 3.

    The Standard is a 9.5 at the very least.

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  55. Henry64 (83 comments) says:

    If the Unions are going to mobilise their members to get out and march to support Labour, this would be the best they can do:

    “1, 2, 3, 4 We don’t know what we’re marching for

    5, 6, 7, 8 all we’ve got is hate, hate, hate!!”

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  56. David Garrett (6,989 comments) says:

    We have our deranged or at least delusional commenters here it’s true…dear old Russell Red; that chap who gets on the turps and offers to fight anyone “anywhere in Auckland” – but goes quiet when you give him an address to come to…the other one who – let’s hope for his sake IS on the turps when he WRITES ALL IN CAPITALS!! WITH LOTS OF EXCLAMATION MARKS!!!

    What I see as the marked difference between here and the Stranded is the degree of respect for free speech here vs there…It is pretty difficult to get banned here; you have to be extraordinarily vitriolic or defamatory…over there it seems the Thought Police ban mild fellows like PG merely for questioning – let alone not toeing – the Party Line.

    I often wonder if the regular Standard readers who come over here from time to time notice that…surely it must cause them some cognitive dissonance?

    Henry 64: Very good Sir…

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  57. ShawnLH (4,482 comments) says:

    I have made extremely mild comments at the Standard which were never posted. KB is very different. I don’t always agree with David, but he deserves credit for his degree of tolerance, something that cannot be said of the Standard.

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  58. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ thor42 (748 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 11:59 am

    To be honest I wouldn’t know, because I don’t read there, other than to visit the odd link that is posted on here.

    If it is that much worse than here, then WOW that must really be something. I’ve had ever thing from my feminine parts to my dog insulted on here. Even been threatened with a visit or two, which is lovely, but I do hope they call first so I can bake some scones!. And as for abuse, well just try to mention that the climate seems to be getting warmer, and WOW, it’s the sort of stuff people pay for in a B & D pallor.

    But I am sure people on the left and at the Standard are probably getting a tad upset. They don’t have a lot to make them feel secure. The people in here don’t actually seem to care, but there are people hurting out there, people who are very frightened of some of Nationals policies, and how they could affect them ( I have a friend who owns seashore land in the north, who is terrified over yesterdays decision to allow more drilling off her coast).

    We are a divided country, and that division is getting bigger – not just racially but also in other ways. As I said people are really hurting, and those that are in pain are not getting much from the current government to make them feel a whole lot better, in fact at times it seems like they are deliberately poking their wounds.

    So yes, I’m sure there is a lot of hatred out there – the question is, as Key is probably going to be the next PM, what is he going to do about it, because he does not just represent the people who voted for him – he will be the PM of New Zealand, and if Kiwis are hurting, it is up to him to provide them with a way to feel more secure – its a big ask – and how it is handled will decide whether he is worthy of the praise you lot give him.

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  59. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    Judith
    Spend 3 hours at The Standard and then come back to KB. You’ll find Thor42 is spot on.

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  60. David Garrett (6,989 comments) says:

    Judith: If your coastal land owning friend really is “terrified” at the prospect of some offshore drilling off “her” coast she should read more widely. While drilling for oil is an inherently hazardous activity, there are any number of huge incentives not to allow accidents to happen…and what the “Deepwater Horizon” disaster has done is make every driller and every toolpusher and company man (google those last two terms) extremely conscious of the risks of what they are doing – to themselves personally, legally and generally.

    My drilling experience is now pretty aged, but even 30 years ago there was huge importance given to safety – particularly offshore where the costs and difficulties in dealing with a blow-out are exponentially greater than onshore.

    You can tell your friend that the last blowout in New Zealand was almost 40 years ago, and that was brought under control in a couple of days IIRC. And if she’s worried about what was left behind after the recent offshore hole which was plugged and abandoned up there, tell here to imagine a couple of small cars on the seabed pretty much covered with cement from the surface plug…one of about four plugs they will have left at various depths up the well bore.

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  61. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ kiwi in america (2,317 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 12:44 pm

    Honestly, I have no need, I can imagine. I am well versed in the ability of human nature to fall below all standards of decency when they are hurting. That is no excuse for it, but my academic training makes me look at the issue beyond the words, to why people are feeling so vicious, insecure, betrayed or whatever.

    This is going to be a dirty next 6 months – it might be a good time to visit Scotland join the fight for their independence – might be less bloodshed.

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  62. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    kia – it depends on what you say and what you are judged to be. I’ve been attacked as badly here as I have at The Standard. Go to The Standard and praise John Key or Whale Oil or DPF (or somehow seem associated with them) or criticise an author and beware. But try mentioning rape culture or CCCP or a deemed a threat to National and you can get as bad here. And some of the more insidious threats have come from here, they just happen more covertly.

    I’ve had more in depth experience across blogs than most, often on the receiving end of antagonistic attention. It’s more common for people to have a home base and do the odd excursion into enemy territory.

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  63. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (5,051 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 12:45 pm

    Thanks for that, but she’s 78. Her land has been in her family for four generations. We’ve tried make her feel better, but she lost her husband recently and she feels its her responsibility to care of it all and pass it on. She’s scared something will happen to stop that – of course the odds are that nothing will happen, but right now she can’t see that, and the media surrounding the issue only brings more doom and gloom for her. She’s vulnerable, a prime target for campaigners sadly.

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  64. srylands (404 comments) says:

    “But I am sure people on the left and at the Standard are probably getting a tad upset. They don’t have a lot to make them feel secure. ”

    I think the Government could have done much more to explaine its economic agenda and how all New Zealanders will benefit from it. The Standard mantra “far right/corporate interests/selling our country/looking after the top 1%” is swallowed by probably 30% of the people.

    Of course it is complete BS. The Government by any international benchmark looks like a moderate left of centre govt presiding over an extensive welfare safety net, and other major social investments while trying to grow the economy and run a sound macro policy. There is nothing “far right” about it.

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  65. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    And I’ll put it another way.

    The comments sections of both The Standard and Kiwiblog are a poor advertisement to their respective politics and parties. Many casual readers see crap at a glance and are horrified. The reputations of both blog forums is not flash beyond their bubbles.

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  66. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Whale is a tabloid.

    Modeled on foxisim.

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  67. Peter (1,686 comments) says:

    Cunliffe is the best Labour leader since Shearer.

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  68. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    PG
    I’m not there often but it’s reminds me of lefty blogs in the US – the comparison between the quality and civility of discourse between Daily Kos, FireDogLake and Think Progress and even the Huffington Post is staggering. They are infinitely nastier than Breitbart, Powerline, Hot Air or Red State. It’s how the left rolls. That’s not excusing any nastiness here on KB.

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  69. Ed Snack (1,836 comments) says:

    I gotta say that I don’t recall anyone threatening Judith’s dog, but whoever you are who did, knock it off OK. Threaten her cat instead, they (largely) deserve it, and cats laugh threats off anyway.

    But to make it a chemistry analogy, the Standard is full of vitriol & bile, by contrast KB is carbonic acid and the odd bit of spittle. And Judith, remember that if you dish it out, you have to take it in return, you display a fair bit of only partially concealed hatred, to say nothing of passive aggression syndrome writ large.

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  70. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    The hounding of pg is the sadist indictment of the rationality for the vitriolic blog left right divide.

    Here at kiwi blog there is obvious tension between liberal and conservative.

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  71. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Amusing to watch like-minded people all nod in agreement that their political opponents are completely biased and hateful.

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  72. Paulus (2,602 comments) says:

    I have been blocked for the Standard – again – my comments are actually more in the region of please tell me where these figures come from ?
    I will go back again in another way only to continue to ask nicely where and when does /did so and so happen.
    They do not like to answer these polite questions.

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  73. OneTrack (2,981 comments) says:

    Judith – “I have to presume that is nothing but a joke. Really, you can’t possibly be that blind. There is bile and venom flying all over the place here too. None so blind as them that cannot see. ”

    and, nek minnit,

    Judith – “To be honest I wouldn’t know, because I don’t read there, ..”

    – Jesus wept.

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  74. OneTrack (2,981 comments) says:

    “Judith
    Spend 3 hours at The Standard and then come back to KB. You’ll find Thor42 is spot on.”

    Judith, just make one comment along the line that you think John Key is ok. That is all it will need.

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  75. OneTrack (2,981 comments) says:

    Griffith – “The hounding of pg is the sadist indictment …. ”

    saddest??

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  76. johnwellingtonwells (137 comments) says:

    Planet Labour or Flat Earth?

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  77. RRM (9,782 comments) says:

    Real life imitating The Civilian… :-)

    http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/cunliffe-dismisses-poll-as-scientific-data-point-realistically-evaluating-his-chances-at-victory-22/

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  78. Elaycee (4,355 comments) says:

    PG: I’ve been attacked as badly here as I have at The Standard…

    The door is wide open, so here goes:

    Pete, have you considered the possibility you may be the common denominator? :D

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  79. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    Elaycee – no, that’s a crap excuse for poor behaviour. It’s like rape apologists and domestic violence apologists blaming the victim’s behaviour.

    I’m not the only one at either blog by a long shot who get’s attacked. And most people manage to express annoyance or alternate views without having to resort to personal attacks, abuse and harassment. An active minority give blogs a bad name.

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  80. RRM (9,782 comments) says:

    thor42 (749 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 11:59 am

    @Judith – “people on this blog do not resort to hateful comments …”

    Put it this way. On a scale of 1 to 10 (where 10 is unbridled hatred) Kiwiblog would struggle to get to 3.

    The Standard is a 9.5 at the very least.

    Well, there used to be a couple of very prolific commentors on here whose personal averages were eights and nines… but then a bunch of us bullied them until they left – don’t tell Judith or Pete! :-P – and now Kiwiblog is the civilised and constructive place you see before you today.

    ;-) You’re welcome…

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  81. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    OneTrack (1,897 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 2:09 pm

    you forgot the next part of my statement – being economical with the truth doesn’t win you points, it just makes you look as stupid as you constantly prove yourself to be.

    “other than to visit the odd link that is posted on here”

    Have you some evidence to support your intimation that I do read there?
    Have you ever seen me post a quote from there, or anything at all, other than having a political opinion that leans more to the left than the right, that would support your theory?

    Your example is exactly what I am talking about – unfounded statements, made on apprehensions, because rather than see the truth, you simply see the ‘leftie’ and apply everything to the ‘condition’. Pathetic short-sightedness on your part.

    Do I really come across as someone that wouldn’t say it how I see it, do I come across as someone that is trying to impress ‘you righties’? If I posted at the Standard, I would happily say so – I have no problem with disagreeing with anyone, if I need to. I am not sad enough to have to come on line and be part of an ‘old boys wanking group’ saying what people want to hear, to win friends. Sorry dear!

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  82. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    and now Kiwiblog is the civilised and constructive place you see before you today.

    Oh I don’t think your reason is correct, I think it’s because I post here now that it is more civilised and constructive! :P

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  83. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ OneTrack (1,897 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 2:10 pm

    Judith, just make one comment along the line that you think John Key is ok. That is all it will need.

    I think John Key okay – at fooling a lot of people the vast majority of the time. Do I win? :-)

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  84. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Ed Snack (1,510 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 1:19 pm

    remember that if you dish it out, you have to take it in return,

    I am fully aware of that Ed, which is why I am still here. I can give as good as I get, if I want to.

    I learned very quickly in life not to be intimidated. That is not necessarily a good thing, especially when my knee-jerk reaction is to stand up to people that try. The ol’ boy hates it – and constantly warns me that one day I will do it one to many times, and he’ll have ‘clean up the mess’.

    When you’ve stood between a knife welding MM member twice your size, and a chain flinging BP member, built like a brick shit house, hell bent on tearing each other to pieces, and told them to “go ahead, but first you gotta use that weapon on me”, then nothing much else tends to scare you. My past employment required me to be locked in a 6′ x 8′ cell for 3 hours with the person I regard as one of this countries most evil psychopaths – being intimidated by that sort of person would never have let me do my job.

    One day I will no doubt be looking down from a cloud and saying “perhaps I shouldn’t have done that” but its an automatic response now – I dislike bullies and people that try to intimidate others – one day I might tell you why I ended up with that response, but that’s another story.

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  85. Rex Widerstrom (5,346 comments) says:

    David Garrett says:

    What CAN be readily argued is after the Nat-Act government was elected there was a reversal – albeit a fairly timid one – of the “treat criminals as victims too” philosophy that had been government policy for 20 years or more. There are also the many positive initiatives such as more drug treatment places in prisons, and Drug Courts, and they have got to have a positive effect.

    Umm… don’t in increased in-prison treatment places and the establishment of Drug Courts indicate an acceptance of the fact that many criminals are victims – of poor parenting, drug dealers, idiot politicians who force councils to designate areas for the selling of “legal highs”, and a whole host of other influences.

    Which is not to say they don’t deserve punishment for what they did to their victims… but that unless we abandon this antiquated belief that anyone who commits a criminal act is “born bad” (aside from the small number of psychopaths who actually are) and irredeemable, and start investing in turning their lives around in a positive way, we’ll get nowhere.

    Judith makes the point that similar trends are happening in other Western countries. That’s true… because finally lawmakers right across the West are seeing that longer and longer sentences only delay the day on which an unreformed offender is released to create havoc, and we must couple deterrence with a host of other measures aimed at reducing repeat crime. It’s even dawning on some conservative politicians in the US southern states – I posted a link the other day which I can’t find now. Anyone working in the Restorative Justice field will tell you, right across Europe, the UK, and even the US the tide is turning to just the sort of sensible reforms that Tolley and her new Corrections boss have had the courage to pursue.

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  86. Elaycee (4,355 comments) says:

    FFS, Pete… read my comment again. You’re coming across as a sook. :roll:

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  87. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Maybe because he is a bit of a sook…

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  88. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    Yeah, I hide behind my real name and don’t stand up to anything.

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  89. Peter (1,686 comments) says:

    I have been blocked for the Standard – again – my comments are actually more in the region of please tell me where these figures come from ?

    I got banned from the Standard for pointing out that dangerous AWG was not established fact, but a prediction based on unreliable models.

    They’re sensitive wee petals.

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  90. itstricky (1,771 comments) says:

    Meanwhile on Planet DPF the Government can do no wrong. Oh hold on he managed to vocalise that he was disappointed there were no tax cuts. How brave.

    Have you ever heard that expression “too good to be true?”

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  91. OneTrack (2,981 comments) says:

    Judith (5,506 comments) says:

    “April 3rd, 2014 at 2:37 pm

    OneTrack (1,897 comments) says:
    April 3rd, 2014 at 2:09 pm

    you forgot the next part of my statement – being economical with the truth doesn’t win you points, it just makes you look as stupid as you constantly prove yourself to be.

    “other than to visit the odd link that is posted on here”

    Have you some evidence to support your intimation that I do read there?
    Have you ever seen me post a quote from there, or anything at all, other than having a political opinion that leans more to the left than the right, that would support your theory?

    OK, you managed to completely miss the point of my comment. Maybe you need to read it all again. I wasn’t intimating you read there – you said you didn’t apart from the occasional link following.

    I’ll try again. You had just given a diatribe on how bad both sides (left and right) are just the same with nasty comments, etc., etc. Then in the next breath, you say that you don’t read the Standard anyway.

    So, where was the basis for you saying left and right are just as bad as each other?

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  92. OneTrack (2,981 comments) says:

    Peter – “They’re sensitive wee petals.”

    They don’t like heretics.

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  93. David Garrett (6,989 comments) says:

    Rex: Gosh this peace and love between us is touching! You make a good point – substantially more drug treatment places and literacy courses are indeed acknowledgement that all criminals arent “born bad”…but then I have never said they were.

    But neither were all of them once “blameless babes” as our CJ opined a few years ago…And you clearly ackowledge that that is the case…

    FWIW I believe there are very few psycopathic monsters like Bell and Burton who are born that way…a helluva lot more of them are made not born…and until we stop paying defective people to produce defective children who become violent criminals we will continue to have relatively high numbers of them. There is quite a good piece by Rosemary McLeod – who over the years has been all over the place on violent thugs – in ‘Stuff’ this morning, about ferals in the Wairarapa …I dont agree with all of her conclusions, but she mades very good points about the nature of the end result.

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  94. Zapper (1,015 comments) says:

    Judith

    ” My past employment required me to be locked in a 6′ x 8′ cell for 3 hours with the person I regard as one of this countries most evil psychopaths”

    Ahhh, so you DO know David Bain personally

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  95. Kimble (4,426 comments) says:

    HAHAHA! I came to this thread to drop a Bain Grenade!

    Lo and behold, what do I find?

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  96. RightNow (6,973 comments) says:

    How is the air on the red planet Judith? You seem to be hyperventilating a bit

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