General Debate 13 May 2014

May 13th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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286 Responses to “General Debate 13 May 2014”

  1. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    I notice that yesterday Stuff had virtually the opposite Shane Taurima story up than they do today.

    Yesterday the report vindicated him, today it ends his career. What’s up with that?

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  2. duggledog (1,556 comments) says:

    RIP Shane Taurima’s career. What a piece of work. See him on the news last night? Basically said everything was above board and all justified in his mind.

    Then this morning Corin Dann on Breakfast really took Cunliffe to task over his alleged 4% unemployment aim after they ‘take power’
    Not.
    I wouldn’t have let him get away with that, even in the short space of time they have on that show Dann should have asked for specifics because of course it will simply be a repeat of the last Labour government – make the jobs up, it’s irrelevant if they are needed or not.

    You couldn’t rent office space for love nor money in Wellington at the height of Helen’s recklessness. Dann just let that one go past.

    Key needs to be ruthless with Cunliffe in the leader’s debates, and needs to utterly Norman

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  3. Keeping Stock (10,339 comments) says:

    Labour has got itself in a right pickle over Shane Taurima. The party has blocked him from standing for the Tamaki Makaurau nomination, but only because he hasn’t been a member of the party for the requisite year.

    But where does that leave Julian Wilcox, the Maori Television head of news? He is on record as expressing an interest in the Tamaki Makaurau nomination should Taurima not be eligible. But has Mr Wilcox been a member been a member of Labour for more than a year. If he has, is it appropriate for the head of news at a significant media organisation (given the way that Labour is targetting the Maori seats aggressively) to be an active member of a political party? TVNZ doesn’t think so, and is changing its rules.

    This is a right old mess, but don’t be surprised if Shane Taurima is suddenly rehabilitated by the time that list selection is done. Where would we be without MMP?

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/labour-says-no-to-taurima.html

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  4. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    So Winston says his info on Judith is most likely coming out today.
    If only Judith was on twitter

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  5. duggledog (1,556 comments) says:

    Sonny – it’s ‘Stuff’, remember.

    Taurima will never be short of a dollar – short term after this blip though. He’ll talk and bully his way into something else with a decent salary. You can do that in New Zealand. He’s gay and Maori as well so if you don’t give him what he wants you are not only racist but homophobic to boot.

    Reminds me of George Beyer. Eventually Taurima will run out of track. Georgie already has. The world leaves people like that behind because essentially they have no integrity

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  6. lilman (958 comments) says:

    lol,gay and racist,loved the pst.

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  7. Keeping Stock (10,339 comments) says:

    @ martinh – “most likely” being the operative words. Peters is all bluff and bluster, and I don’t believe that the PM will have to go on TV and apologise to him any time soon.

    I’d love to play poker with Peters; he’d be an easy take, because he’s always bluffing. The PM on the other hand; he’d be a superb poker player :D

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  8. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock
    Yes i agree hes bluff and bluster, if he doesnt have the required info then itl be a big backfire doing this in election year and having the Pm being able to ridicule him

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  9. Keeping Stock (10,339 comments) says:

    He will have some snippet of information martinh, which he will claim is the killer punch. It won’t be, of course, but Peters will still claim that there is some vast conspiracy at play, and all the residents at Homes for the Bewildered (used courtesy of Paul Henry) throughout the country will believe him.

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  10. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    Wasn’t Peters supposed to have the big reveal last night? I almost never bother with TV news any more so I didn’t see anything.

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  11. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    Shawn
    He was on radionz morning report, it can be listened to here.
    He goes on about the ferry first. He doesnt explain how the prop got damaged from hitting the wharf but the wharf isnt damaged
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport

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  12. alex Masterley (1,517 comments) says:

    KS,
    the better description such establishments is homes for “buggered and bewildered”.

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  13. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    Heh, I noticed this headline on radionz: ” Teacher unions are denying Auckland University claims that the standard of English from people starting its courses is not up to scratch.”

    Of course they are. What would a University know about such things compared to a union? :)

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  14. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    The party has blocked him from standing for the Tamaki Makaurau nomination, but only because he hasn’t been a member of the party for the requisite year.

    He put himself forward to be a candidate for a by election about May last year so presumably must have been a party member then. Did he resign and then re-join?

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  15. Paulus (2,627 comments) says:

    I note that the “whitewash” report of TVNZ has recommended that they should ask whether employees are members of a Political Party – what a load of balls really – either they will say no, having resigned as a member, or just lie. Good Socialist practice.

    So Taurima and his three colleagues have gone – leaving others festering political mayhem underground – usually called ‘Sleepers”.
    So for now the Political/Maori wing of TVNZ is quiet, until the next time. Remember they are all members of a Union.

    Now what about Radio Left Wing who are still jumping over hoops to denigrate anybody who does not agree with their left wing views.

    What about the dreadful Herald – the sooner they got to a paywall the quicker they will collapse.

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  16. Yvette (2,819 comments) says:

    New Zealand First MPs could face tough new rules and huge fines if they resign or are sacked from the party.
    The rule – under which those MPs would be fined up to $300,000 if they didn’t give up their seat within three days of leaving the party – was inserted into NZ First’s constitution after Brendan Horan was ejected from the party in late 2012 but refused to resign from Parliament.
    The rule is yet to be ratified.

    Mr Horan was expelled from NZ First in December 2012 after his half-brother, Mana Ormsby, claimed he had inappropriately used their mother’s bankcards.
    However, the executor of his mother’s estate investigated and cleared Mr Horan of any wrongdoing.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503343&objectid=11252255

    ratified – eat this one, Winston :-)

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  17. wreck1080 (3,907 comments) says:

    When are labour going to show some ‘balls’ and announce their plans for company/personal income tax?

    The down and out will vote for labour as they know that labour will not increase their taxes.

    But, middle income earners cannot be so sure. And labour are all smoke and mirrors when it comes down to the details.

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  18. jp_1983 (212 comments) says:

    If Labour rejects him I am sure that NZFirst would welcome another broadcaster to the mix..

    Or don’t forget internet party.

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  19. Keeping Stock (10,339 comments) says:

    And now, watch the Left come to the defence of Kim Dotcom over this:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/10036828/Racist-day-fun-with-Kim-Dotcom

    Perhaps this is the family matter that kept him away from the kapa haka festival in Rotorua at the weekend. What will Hone and Annette do now?

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  20. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    “He’s gay and Maori” – so hes a super citizen.

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  21. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    gay… really?

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  22. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    Apparently Cunliffe was on with comrade campbell last night.

    Obviously Dime doesnt watch that shit but I did hear a lady on ZB phone in.

    She said it looked like Cunliffe was “dominated” at home. BAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHA

    Cunliffe is a piss weak beta male? no wonder he wants to punish the rest of us with new laws and taxes

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  23. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    “He’s gay and Maori”

    The messiah has arrived. The final days are upon us ;)

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  24. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    Whaddya mean it’s the end of his “career”?

    Bollox.

    He’s just another part of the Aotearoa permanent political class and will emerge in a different form at some not too distant time in the future.

    And we’ll still be paying his way.So work hard ,keep paying your taxes, our elites depend on it.

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  25. Fisiani (1,039 comments) says:

    Congratulations to Paul Foster-Bell for winning the National nomination for Wellington Central last night. He was clearly the better candidate and will increase the electorate and party vote in September

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  26. stephieboy (3,040 comments) says:

    Yvette, I think Winston and NZF , according to Otago University Law Professor, Andrew Geddis,, would have great difficulty in enforcing this so called party rule obligation.
    Is this yet another example of Winston’s huff ,puff and bluff grand standing.or is it something else altogether.?
    I believe DPF covered the issue on an earlier thread.

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  27. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    After seeing bits of that wishy washy Campbell Labour campaign last night I felt ill. Maybe we may have found “Tojo’s” donors . . . Dotcom and Sky City.

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  28. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    dime

    Kowtow watched ( out of prurient interest).

    It was a sad spectacle. His missus clearly was uncomfortable (always valued her privacy,which is fair enough) and basically admitted she did it cos she was talked into it.(Election year)Oh dear,I’d have had a bit of respect for the Cunner family if they’d hadda said,No,we’ve not done it before and we’re not doing it now;

    Puts me in mind of that Ubber Fem,Clark getting married for the cause,these people will do anything in their quest for power in order “to look after our welfare”

    I hate Campbell.He’s a c#nt for pushing his way into people’s private lives.

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  29. stephieboy (3,040 comments) says:

    I see Boko Haram claim they’ve sent their captive school girls to hard labour for life by converting to Islam.!

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  30. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    the scene of the two comrades sitting there drinking a beer made me the most queasy.
    whats tojo mean?

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  31. doggone7 (801 comments) says:

    The joys of the morning – take the dogs out in the paddocks for a pee and a crap then read igm. Very similar experiences!

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  32. BeaB (2,123 comments) says:

    Loved Cunliffe claiming it was his local fish and chip shop but they didn’t know him because it had changed hands. And no-one on the street even looked at him.
    But such a lovely bucolic life – bees and chooks and neighbours leaving their scraps in a bucket out front in exchange for eggs. As you have to in Millionaires Row.
    Was the wife on for over half the programme to keep him off?
    Why are the kids being given pikelets, jam (homemade of course) and whipped cream instead of a nice fresh egg or some of that honey?
    What a load of tosh. Toe-curlingly embarrassing, false and a bit creepy as he stood there fondling the cat while wife bustled round with her very expensive haircut and manicured nails.

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  33. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Peter’s has invested a lot by making these claims – I don’t think he is about to commit ‘political suicide’, although I doubt his revelations will have the deepth and strength he might think they should have.

    Having said that, really, does any further damaging information about Collins need to have much strength, when is ‘enough’ actually going to be enough? Her actions are not good for Key, and that distraction needs to be ended.

    I suspect that the cunning old dog will dribble small but slightly significant information about the debacle through the media for as long as possible. After all, it is distracting and serves the purpose of taking the punch out of any announcements National makes.

    That’s current day politics – more like a strategic game of poker, than it is about what is good for the country.

    And the losers are … US!

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  34. Rich Prick (1,700 comments) says:

    Indeed BeaB, it was a little bit sad actually. I did note what a dump his “doer-upper” is though.

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  35. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    BeaB
    Yeah that was good especially when he id an overemphasised bye and nobody responded

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  36. stephieboy (3,040 comments) says:

    Judith , I believe your opprobrium and indignation directed at Judith Collins can only be due to one thing ,namely having the keen perception, the wit and presence of mind to reject the fatally flawed Binnie report.
    If any thing, one of her minsterial crowning achievements she will be remembered and the public feel eternally grateful for.!

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  37. Viking2 (11,469 comments) says:

    KS.
    Not a Winston fan BUT he did out the Ferry near misses the other day. Proven to be correct with 2 Masters being stood down.
    Just as the Whale shoes, you simply don’t know what you don’t and someone else might.

    Just sayin.

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  38. johnwellingtonwells (137 comments) says:

    Mrs Cunliffe, or is it Tojo, burns pikelets. Somewhat dark brown on top

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  39. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    John
    Whats tojo mean? ive never got that
    Im hoping its not referencing the japanese arsehole as even though i dont particularly endear to Cunliffe that would be pretty awful thing to say

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  40. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    Good on Peters seems he has good sources, turning the wrong way is a very odd mistake as the skipper should of known of the ship in his erred course
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11254071

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  41. BeaB (2,123 comments) says:

    Viking2
    But what exactly did he ‘out’? It’s hardly a political scandal.

    Or perhaps he just wants to give the Nats ammunition to sell off Kiwirail.

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  42. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    BeaB
    I say he got pressure put on KiwiRail to get this investigated. First reports i heard was KiwiRail was blaming the weather for ship hold ups and any damage.
    This is the first ive heard of a skipper doing a wrong course change

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  43. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    For those who haven’t caught up on Stephen Franks’ excellent piece on how the Historic Places Trust “heritage czars” are getting power to freeze property rights to even new buildings, this link:

    http://www.stephenfranks.co.nz/

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  44. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Jack5 it sickens me how the Historic Places Trust can remove legitimate property rights to indulge the architectural necrophilia of pompous prats.

    It has a darker side too, as witnessed by the deaths of many in Christchurch recently when crumbling shit heaps fell into the street crushing people. This did not stop the pompous prats rallying together to “save” the buildings (not the people) because they claimed to like – looking at- the dangerous buildings.

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  45. Paulus (2,627 comments) says:

    Peters is wrong about the Ferry hitting the wharf and damaging its propeller.

    Shows how little he knows about ships – could not be done – not even with Winston at the helm.

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  46. Fletch (6,384 comments) says:

    From the U.S, more intolerance toward anyone who dares have an opinion that is deemed “anti-gay”, or in any way is critical of homosexuals or homosexuality.

    For those who don’t know, the first openly gay gridiron player, Michael Sam, has been selected for the NFL draft. But the thing that really got the media attention was video of Sam being told and kissing his same-sex partner. The media loved it! Oh, it was so wonderful.

    What happened next? Well, a player from the Dolphins team, Don Jones, tweeted, “OMG”, “Horrible”. For that tweet he was fined, and will undergo reeducation and sensitivity training.

    “Don Jones has been fined an undisclosed amount and excused from all team activities until such time that he undergoes and completes educational training for his recent comments made on social media during the NFL Draft.

    Dolphins coach Joe Philbin said the team was “disappointed” in Jones, and the tweets were “inappropriate and unacceptable.”

    We met with Don today about respect, discrimination and judgment. These comments are not consistent with the values and standards of our program. We will continue to emphasize and educate our players that these statements will not be tolerated.”

    http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/dolphins-player-fined-and-suspended-negative-tweet-about-michael-sam

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  47. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    Fletch,

    Same thing would have happened if he had said an interracial kiss was horrible. It’s political correctness gone mad.

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  48. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    Paulus
    I agree that a prop couldnt hit a wharf unless that wharf had being flattened to below stern level already.
    I heard Peters this morning say that he never said the prop hit the wharf so if you can show a link to where he did actually say that id be keen to read it

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  49. Fletch (6,384 comments) says:

    Next time DPF goes hiking he perhaps could be taking one of these: a “drinkable book”. The pages are treated with silver nitrate nano-particles. When water is filtered through one of the pages, there is a reduction of greater than 99.9% in bacteria.

    It costs pennies to produce. Each filter page gives up to 30 days clean water, and each book will provide for at least 4 years.

    Especially great for third world countries.

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  50. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    That’s so cool, Fletch.

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  51. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    Shit ,I’ll have to change the hearing aid batteries, I had such a larf when I heard the neighbours left their craps at the Cunners’ front door .

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  52. Fletch (6,384 comments) says:

    I notice from Campbell Live last night that Cunliffe’s wife, Karen Price, has kept her own last name. Does this mean she is some kind of rock star, movie star, other famous person feminist?

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  53. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Mrs Cunliffe, or is it Tojo, burns pikelets. Somewhat dark brown on top

    Oh the humanity!

    I thought it was pretty honest to call Cunliffe the “nerdy Christian guy”, because that’s what he is – the archetypal parson’s son. Odd that such a socially and personally conservative person should be leader of the Labour Party, but then again, they have had many such people.

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  54. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    Fletch

    The double standards when it comes to the sexual identity culture wars are staggering.

    In the US contrast the cheers for the queer and the jeers for the Christian.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2014/05/11/NFL-Fans-Blast-Media-for-Hailing-Sam-s-Courage-Criticizing-Tebow-for-Embracing-Christian-Faith

    Meanwhile in Eurosovietstan a loon wins the Eurovision song contest and the glitterati go gaga for the freak ,but Poland gets in trouble for objectifying women!

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/eurovision-2014-poland-cause-stir-3524256

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  55. SGA (1,025 comments) says:

    Fletch at 11:56 am

    I notice from Campbell Live last night that Cunliffe’s wife, Karen Price, has kept her own last name. Does this mean she is some kind of feminist?

    Good grief Fletch – how old are you?

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  56. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    Looks like Winston might be pulling it out at 2pm today
    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/business/qoa/00HOH_OralQuestions/list-of-questions-for-oral-answer
    This will be an epic one way or another….

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  57. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    The double standards when it comes to the sexual identity culture wars are staggering.

    Normal hetro = Bad

    Any deviation from the norm = Good

    It really is sickening the double standards where normal appreciation of beautiful women is seen as wrong and harmful, and raging poofter love is celebrated.

    As regulars will know, I am not anti-poofters, but I get really pissed off with double standards !

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  58. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Further on the Cunliffe/Christian thing.

    I think this is what makes some people think he comes across as a bit fake. My guess is that he’s a very religious person (since he was going to train as a priest), who is trying to navigate a political system where religious belief is denigrated. I don’t think he has any prejudice against gays or people who live together while unmarried (look at how young he got married). I mean his kids are called William and Cameron, which would mark them out in a world full of Jaydens, Kristyfers and DeShawns.

    Cunliffe is the stolid, conservative, pious, hard working son every mother wanted. What’s he doing in politics?

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  59. Fletch (6,384 comments) says:

    SGA, just asking a simple question. The only reason I’d know for keeping one’s last name is because they’re some kind of feminist. Or else a famous person who wants to keep name recognition. Is Karen famous?

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  60. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Sheesh…. we have some serious whingers and bleaters in our country – now someone is ‘demanding’ (true) the PM investigate the Air NZ flight that couldn’t get to Nelson at Easter due to bad weather. How pathetic.

    Flight couldn’t leave CHC for Nelson because of a storm.
    Passengers were sent to Nelson by bus.
    En route, they find the road closed due to slips from…. the same storm!
    They turn back but were stopped by a second slip.
    A grader eventually clears the roads and they return by the same bus to CHC.
    So they had to spend a night on the bus. Definitely not ideal, but slips on the road are hardly the fault of the airline.
    Air NZ subsequently refunds the fares and pays compensation.

    But the bleating is in full throttle.
    Some moron has written to the PM ‘demanding’ an investigation.
    Another bleats she ‘feared for her life’… sitting / sleeping on a bus, FFS!
    Some bloke mentions passengers with ‘medical conditions’…. yet the same passengers were OK to fly in the first place.

    Like it or not, travel can sometimes mean disruption. Sometimes flights are delayed / they have to turn back / they divert to another destination altogether / it happens / it’s called travel. On occasion, we hear of truckies having to sleep in their vehicles because snow on the Desert Road caught them out. It happens. So these bleaters need to get over it. And the MSM should stop giving them any attention. It wasn’t ideal, but shit happens.

    And they need to accept the compensation train has since left the station.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/10038326/Trapped-passengers-want-investigation

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  61. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    SGA, just asking a simple question. The only reason I’d know for keeping one’s last name is because they’re some kind of feminist.

    Stephanie Davidson marries Gareth Stoatshagger.

    Why on earth would she keep her maiden name?

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  62. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    jack5

    re Stephen Franks.Thank you. Excellent.

    “And this is a bill from the National government which surely respects property rights.”

    Therein the problem with the Notional Party. They have become a bunch of flax weaving,pink handkerchief progressives.Barely distinguished from Labour.

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  63. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    SGA, just asking a simple question. The only reason I’d know for keeping one’s last name is because they’re some kind of feminist.

    Like with so many things, the only reason you need to not do something is have no reason to do it.

    Cunliffe kept his surname too. Why would he do that?

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  64. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10038917/Collins-will-be-gone-by-Monday-Peters

    NZ First leader Winston Peters is claiming he’s got new information that would see Justice Minister Judith Collins “gone by Monday”.

    But Prime Minister John Key was challenging Peters to put up or shut up.

    “As I said yesterday, if he’s right and she’s forced to resign or is sacked as a minister, I’ll be going on public television to apologise. Of course, it’d be fantastic to see Winston Peters apologising if he’s wrong by next Monday as well.”

    “Like it is with all of these occasions, it’s bound to be his interpretation of something.

    “It’s pretty simple isn’t it?One of us is right, and one of us is wrong.”

    Key was reluctant to give absolute confirmation that he had full knowledge of Collins’ dealings with Oravida, but said anything new would be a surprise to him.
    …….. ”
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    So – the MFAT briefing of the Oravida visit/tour which PROVED it was pre-planned as opposed to just calling in for a cuppa on the way to the airport wasn’t NEW information for Prime Minister John Key?

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/business/qoa/50HansQ_20140319_00000008/8-justice-minister%E2%80%94statements

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    8. Justice, Minister—Statements

    [Sitting date: 19 March 2014. Volume:697;Page:16818. Text is subject to correction.]

    8. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) to the Minister of Justice: Does she stand by all her statements regarding Oravida Ltd because she asserts they are true?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice) : Yes, to the best of my knowledge. If I make an error, I face up to it. I correct it, and I apologise.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: If her explanation yesterday for the circuitous route to the airport—that is, she did not know where she was—is true, then why did she say on 4 March that she just popped into Oravida to have a cup of tea on the way to the airport; which statement is true and which one is false?

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: Of course, they are both correct. To use the term “pop in” is not a statement of fact; it is an opinion. But I can tell that member—

    Hon Member: It’s called a colloquialism.

    Hon JUDITH COLLINS: It is a colloquialism. But I can tell that member that not only did I speak with the China Executive Leadership Academy in Pudong for about 2 hours, I also had a meeting with the Shanghai Municipal Discipline Inspection Commission, plus there was a lunch, attended by many guests. Then there was a call on the Director-General of the Shanghai Justice Bureau. The only other choice was either to go to the airport, or to go to Oravida and then to the airport. It was always planned that if there was not time, we would not bother going to Oravida.
    …………………….
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    BOLLOCKS!!!
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1405/S00029/raw-documents-mfat-oia-release-on-collins-oravida-dinner.htm

    Raw Documents: MFaT OIA Release on Collins’ Oravida Dinner

    Monday, 5 May 2014, 12:17 pm
    Article: Scoop News

    On Friday the Ministry of Foreign Affairs released documents on minister Judith Collins’ October visit to China. During the visist Collins had dinner with Stone Shi, owner of NZ food company Oravida, and an unnamed Chinese offical. She also visited Oravida headquarters, an event which the company used in promotional material. Collins’ husband is a director of Oravida and the company has made substantial donations to the National Party, which had led to allegation of conflict of interest.

    The following document was released to activist Penny Bright. It includes 102 pages of scanned documents and correspondence (with redactions) related to the dinner, the Oravida visit and Collins’ trip to China.

    On page 85 the purpose of the Oravida visit is described as “To increase the profile of a successful importer and distributor of New Zealand products into China”.

    Full document: OIA release on Judith Collins’ dinner with Oravida [PDF, 6.52MB]

    http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1405/020520141724330001.pdf

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    Does THIS look like a ‘cuppa’ on the way to the airport?

    Oravida photo – STILL on their website

    “NZ’s Minister of Justice and NZ’s China Ambassador visit Oravida Shanghai”

    http://www.oravida.com/lwl/newsen/

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Is this apparent ‘wilful blindness’ by Prime Minister John Key, exhibiting the highest ethical standards to which he is supposed to hold his Ministers accountable?

    http://cabinetmanual.cabinetoffice.govt.nz/files/manual.pdf

    Conduct of Ministers

    2.52 A Minister of the Crown, while holding a ministerial warrant, acts in a number of
    different capacities:

    (a) in a ministerial capacity, making decisions, and determining and promoting
    policy within particular portfolios;

    (b) in a political capacity as a member of Parliament, representing a constituency or
    particular community of interest;

    (c) in a personal capacity.

    2.53 In all these roles and at all times, Ministers are expected to act lawfully and to behave in
    a way that upholds, and is seen to uphold, the highest ethical standards. Ultimately,
    Ministers are accountable to the Prime Minister for their behaviour

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    In my opinion, expecting the highest ethical standards from John Key, ex-Wall Street banker who helped to set up the dodgy derivatives market is probably a VERY BIG ask?

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/mpp/mps/current/50MP78101/key-john

    Career

    Investment banker, New Zealand for 10 years
    Investment banker, Merrill Lynch 1995-2001
    Member, Foreign Exchange Committee of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York 1999-2001

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption/anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

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  65. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson is taking the piss!

    “Cunliffe is the stolid, conservative, pious, hard working son every mother wanted.”
    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

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  66. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    I love you, Penny.

    I heard you were a welder. Was that you in Flashdance?

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  67. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson is taking the piss!

    I’m not. That’s what he appears to be in his personal life.

    For example, every single person I know who got married since the early 80s at that young age where the chick wasn’t already knocked up, did it because they personally disproved of pre-marital sex.

    Apparently, Michael Moore is quite like this, Very liberal, but personally very religious. I’m pretty sure that Moore is a teetotaller for this reason.

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  68. lilman (958 comments) says:

    Penny why dont you pay what you owe?

    Will Ugly ever cheer up?

    Is David Cunliffe being set up by his Caucus?

    Why is Winston still relevant?

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  69. SGA (1,025 comments) says:

    Fletch at 12:15 pm

    SGA, just asking a simple question. The only reason I’d know for keeping one’s last name is because they’re some kind of feminist.

    Compared to what was expected of their grandmothers, I’m sure that many women of Karen Price or Judith Collin’s generation and younger would count as “some kind of feminist”. Hence my rhetorical question concerning your age.

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  70. Manolo (13,762 comments) says:

    Only in Brazil:

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  71. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    How exciting, either WInston or Key is going to have egg on their face soon

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  72. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    When women get married, they don’t choose to lose their maiden name, nor to they choose to gain their husband’s name. They get to have both, it’s just a matter of which name they decide to use.

    For instance, I still have my passport under my maiden name, yet I am commonly known by my married name.

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  73. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Lucy, you little feminazi ! Ten Hail-Marys for you, though if you wait until I knock off we can make them Bloody Marys ;)

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  74. stephieboy (3,040 comments) says:

    Birdbrain ,your Islamic strict Sharia ( house confinement and detention for women ) is shining through..!

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  75. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    Hi Tom – yes – I was a ticketed welder, a certified welding inspector and a welding tutor.

    I have Advanced Trade in Sheetmetal Engineering.

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/qualifications/

    No – it wasn’t me in ‘Flashdance’.

    Cheers!

    Penny Bright

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  76. Fletch (6,384 comments) says:

    New breaking story from Ian Wishart.

    Former cop blows lid on NZ government bugging allegations – ministers implicated

    An explosive political allegation is breaking this afternoon – a retired police officer who leaked information about a senior National government minister is in hiding today with his wife and children, saying he believes he is now being hunted by police because of what he knows.

    “I slept in a jumbo bin dumpster the other night in Newmarket while the police helicopter circled overhead and patrol cars were circling the area looking for me after I managed to give the slip to a police surveillance team,” Nick Preece said today, adding, “I know what police surveillance is because it was part of my job on the force.”

    Preece, a former homicide and robbery detective, spent 11 years in the police force before embarking on a business career that included establishing an international aviation company – JMI Aerospace – with offices in seven countries last decade.

    He drove hundreds of kilometres in a borrowed car to meet InvestigateDaily, after leaving a false trail for the police or private security teams he says are tracking him.

    Preece, with his wife and young children in the car as well, has told InvestigateDaily his troubles began after he “foolishly” let slip to an Auckland businessman last year details of an incident involving a senior cabinet minister

    He has more, but you have to pay to see it.

    http://www.investigatemagazine.co.nz/Investigate/

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  77. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    What a silly question by Cunliffe, hes such a weak leader no wonder his wife dominated last night.
    Key just nailed him good stuff

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  78. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    stupidboy, you can’t join Lucy & I for a drink. It would be a breach of your bail conditions, even if you were old enough :)

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  79. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    This Parliament time is great. WInston seems to be implying Judith hasnt declared interests of pecuniary interests.

    Wow shes had it if thats the case

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  80. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    An explosive political allegation is breaking this afternoon – a retired police officer who leaked information about a senior National government minister is in hiding today with his wife and children, saying he believes he is now being hunted by police because of what he knows.

    “I slept in a jumbo bin dumpster the other night in Newmarket while the police helicopter circled overhead and patrol cars were circling the area looking for me after I managed to give the slip to a police surveillance team,” Nick Preece said today, adding, “I know what police surveillance is because it was part of my job on the force.”

    He’s being hunted by police because of what he knows?

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  81. ciaron (1,433 comments) says:

    He’s Gooooooooooonnnnnnnnne! Piss off Winnie, your’e out!

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  82. OTGO (549 comments) says:

    Aaaand he’s gone!

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  83. stephieboy (3,040 comments) says:

    Birdbrain, please try and focus on the question I raised re the application of Sharia to womenfolk in your home.

    Why do we need now to take seriously our arch conspiracy theory investigator Ian Wishart.?

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  84. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    Ha well seems Winston lost that.
    Everyone knew the chinese govt funded her there on a justice trip

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  85. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    i suppose it depends if she got money etc that doesnt look like it was for travel

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  86. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    Peter’s has invested a lot by making these claims

    Who is Peter and where did he get his apostrophe from? I think the tax-payer has the right to know.

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  87. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    Grant Robertson to the Minister of Justice:

    Does she stand by all her statements regarding her relationships and interactions with Oravida Ltd – 6 May 2014

    http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/highlight/060514

    Raw Documents: MFaT OIA Release on Collins’ Oravida Dinner

    Monday, 5 May 2014, 12:17 pm
    Article: Scoop News

    On Friday the Ministry of Foreign Affairs released documents on minister Judith Collins’ October visit to China. During the visist Collins had dinner with Stone Shi, owner of NZ food company Oravida, and an unnamed Chinese offical.
    She also visited Oravida headquarters, an event which the company used in promotional material.
    Collins’ husband is a director of Oravida and the company has made substantial donations to the National Party, which had led to allegation of conflict of interest.

    The following document was released to activist Penny Bright. It includes 102 pages of scanned documents and correspondence (with redactions) related to the dinner, the Oravida visit and Collins’ trip to China.

    On page 85 the purpose of the Oravida visit is described as “To increase the profile of a successful importer and distributor of New Zealand products into China”.

    Full document: OIA release on Judith Collins’ dinner with Oravida [PDF, 6.52MB]

    http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1405/020520141724330001.pdf
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    How is a Minister of Justice who lies to the House and the public ‘fit for duty’?

    Why does NZ Prime Minister John Key continue to defend the indefensible actions of HIS Minister of Justice Judith Collins?

    Because, (in my opinion) , John Key, as an ex-Wall Street banker who helped to set up the dodgy derivatives market clearly lacks a moral and ethical compass, and is not himself ‘fit for duty’ in his major ‘public service’ role as NZ Prime Minister.

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/mpp/mps/current/50MP78101/key-john

    Career

    Investment banker, New Zealand for 10 years
    Investment banker, Merrill Lynch 1995-2001
    Member, Foreign Exchange Committee of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York 1999-2001

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption/anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

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  88. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    What on earth are ‘real’ people, and what is ‘real’ money?

    Do we have people in New Zealand that aren’t ‘real’ earning money that is ‘not real’?

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  89. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    Strictly speaking there is no such thing as “feminism.” It is more accurate to say that there are feminisms plural. In other words it’s not a monolithic thing. Some forms of feminism are extreme, tend to be liberal-left or hard left, and are obsessed promoting anti-marriage views. Other forms are reasonable.

    Yesterday Ryan pegged me as a hard right conservative most of the time, which is true. Yet in my church I support the ordination of women (obviously given that my wife is a priest) and so that puts me on the moderate to liberal spectrum as far as that is concerned.

    I believe that our current political definitions are too simple, and at times inaccurate. I wonder if we need a new political language that is more elastic, one that has multiple sides, instead of the binary Left/Right Conservative/Liberal one which seems increasingly anachronistic.

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  90. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Everyone knew the chinese govt funded her there on a justice trip.

    I’m not sure what the question was, because he didn’t do a good job of asking it, and he kept getting interrupted all the time.

    Shouldn’t it all still be declared, even if “everyone knew”? I think his point was that not declaring at all would allow her to hide benefits that she might otherwise not want everyone to see.

    But who knows, since the amount of argy bargy and poor rulings from the speaker prevented the questions from being asked and answered properly.

    Is he trying to say that the Chinese government paid for “the dinner”?

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  91. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    Reformed femiNazi, thank you, Kea.

    I would have changed my passport, but the NZ Gov’t wouldn’t accept my ceremonial marriage certificate from Australia. Had to get a more official one, but was short of time so will do it on the next passport upgrade.

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  92. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Tom Jackson (2,428 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 3:10 pm

    Is the government being open and transparent about this issue, and if not, why not? :P

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  93. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Do we have people in New Zealand that aren’t ‘real’ earning money that is ‘not real’?

    Yes, finance corporations, who are “legal persons”.

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  94. Manolo (13,762 comments) says:

    The sky is falling, the end is nigh, the addled griff is right!
    http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8843748/antarctic-ice-sheet-collapse-unstoppable

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  95. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Um, if Peters’ source is a confidential cabinet memo, doesn’t that mean that someone in cabinet or someone else from within a cabinet minister’s office supplied Winston with the document?

    A Collins enemy?

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  96. Manolo (13,762 comments) says:

    The same is happening over here: http://www.spectator.co.uk/australia/australia-features/9198341/an-extravagant-entitlement/

    What the…? When the hell did the public service slip this one into their grab-bag of other rorts?

    So now we need an extravagant workplace entitlement to match those extravagant workplace entitlements already enjoyed by the nation’s most extravagantly overpaid, overindulged and overentitled bureaucrats? Hmmm. Let me just check the title of this film again. Oh, yeah: The End of the Age of Entitlements.

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  97. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    Tom
    Sounds from the PMs response that it didnt need to be declared. That surprised me but it seems its whats allowed

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  98. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    Tom
    Yes the confidential cabinet memo bit surprised me too

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  99. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    Here you go Kiwibloggers – read it for yourselves:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1405/S00198/key-covers-up-collins-cover-up-of-chinese-support.htm

    Key Covers up Collins’ Cover up of Chinese Support

    Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 3:03 pm

    Press Release: New Zealand First Party
    Rt Hon Winston Peters
    New Zealand First Leader

    13 May 2014

    Key Covers up Collins’ Cover up of “Substantial” Chinese Support

    Justice Minister Judith Collins concealed payments made by the Chinese Government for her travel, accommodation and other costs during her trip to China and the Prime Minister was aware of this, claims Rt Hon Winston Peters.

    He says the minister deliberately failed to record the benefits in the Register of Pecuniary Interests and New Zealand First is asking for the case to be referred to the Privileges Committee.

    “This is the latest episode in a string of cover-ups around her trip to China, which she used to help her husband’s company Oravida when its milk exports to China were stopped.

    “The three Oravida contacts were a conflict of interest and therefore a breach of the Cabinet Manual. Her deliberate concealment of payments from the Register is another clear breach of the Cabinet Manual.

    “Prime Minister John Key was well aware that the Chinese Government was supporting the Minister.

    In the confidential Cabinet Travel Report that is only circulated within Cabinet, Minister Collins stated that she was “provided substantial support for all meetings, accommodation in Beijing and transportation and facilitation throughout the visit”.

    “Why did the Prime Minister then allow his minister to conceal this ‘substantial support’ from the Chinese Government by not listing them in the Register of Pecuniary Interests that is on public view.

    “Minister Collins did declare a set of books as a gift she received from the Chinese Government but failed to record the other contributions made by Beijing.”

    Mr Peters says he has asked the Speaker to refer the case to the Privileges Committee to enable all the facts to be disclosed.

    Register_of_Pecuniary_and_Other_Specified_Interests__31_January_2014.pdf
    Report_for_Overseas_Travel.pdf

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

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  100. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Sounds from the PMs response that it didnt need to be declared. That surprised me but it seems its whats allowed

    Both Robertson and Norman seem sure that, although such expenses from a Parliamentary visit need not be declared, those from a Ministerial visit must be declared. Wasn’t this a ministerial visit?

    I see Peters’ point now: if Collins did not declare expenses from the Chinese government on this trip, then she ought to, and if she did not with the connivance of the PM, then why not?

    If expenses from ministerial visits must be declared, then that question deserves an answer (even if the answer might end up being humdrum).

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  101. RRM (9,917 comments) says:

    Penny – have you disclosed who donated that $10k to you yet?

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  102. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Penny – have you disclosed who donated that $10k to you yet?

    Wasn’t a donation is my guess. Someone paid her to try to weld John Banks’ mouth shut (to be honest, Banks himself could have been the donor, knowing how his gob gets him into hot water all the time).

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  103. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    What is “Tojo” Cunliffe today . . . a director of Fonterra, the son of a policeman, a volunteer at Forest and Bird, a chef at the soup kitchen, or just a loser who can only find kids in a sandpit will listen to him? Then one of them disputed his sincerity!

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  104. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    Strictly speaking there is no such thing as “feminism.” It is more accurate to say that there are feminisms plural. In other words it’s not a monolithic thing. Some forms of feminism are extreme, tend to be liberal-left or hard left, and are obsessed promoting anti-marriage views. Other forms are reasonable.

    Yesterday Ryan pegged me as a hard right conservative most of the time, which is true. Yet in my church I support the ordination of women (obviously given that my wife is a priest) and so that puts me on the moderate to liberal spectrum as far as that is concerned.

    I believe that our current political definitions are too simple, and at times inaccurate. I wonder if we need a new political language that is more elastic, one that has multiple sides, instead of the binary Left/Right Conservative/Liberal one which seems increasingly anachronistic.

    It’s at least a little hilarious that supporting the ordination of women makes you a bit of a radical.

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  105. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    martinh (938 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 3:22 pm
    Tom
    Sounds from the PMs response that it didnt need to be declared. That surprised me but it seems its whats allowed

    Whether its allowed or not, surely if Ms Collins is acting within the governments promised ‘open and transparent’ manner then it has to be good for them. That is of course if she has nothing to hide by not telling the full story, including who paid for what, regarding the visit.

    The longer she and Key continue to hide such factors, they leave the public to make up their own mind, and draw the conclusion from what they already know – all of which points to corruption.

    Her obstinate manner, which is now supported and backed by Key contradicts everything he has promised us regarding transparency.

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  106. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Whatever happens, the speaker and the PM seemed to be shit-scared of what Winston might say. Carter is usually pretty biased, but he outdid himself today.

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  107. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ publicwatchdog (1,877 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 3:24 pm

    Penny, can you tell me why there are such huge gaps in the OIA’s being released by Collins office. What circumstances were so secretive about the visit that means the tax payers, for whom she works, is not allowed to know what is in them? I presume they were written on ‘our time’?

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  108. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    Ok folks – here are the RULES as set out in Parliamentary Standing Orders:

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/rules/standing-orders/appendix-b/00HOHPBReferenceStOrdersAppendixBBPart1/part-1

    Standing Orders

    Appendix B: Pecuniary and other specified interests

    ………………………

    8 Contents of return relating to member’s activities for period ending on effective date of return

    (1) Every return must contain the following information for the period specified in clause 9:

    (a) for each country (other than New Zealand) that the member travelled to,—

    (i) the name of the country, and

    (ii) the purpose of travelling to the country, and

    (iii) the name of each person who contributed (in whole or in part) to the costs of the travel to and from the country, and

    (iv) the name of each person who contributed (in whole or in part) to the accommodation costs incurred by the member while in the country, and

    (b) a description of each gift received by the member that has an estimated market value in New Zealand of more than $500 and the name of the donor of each of those gifts (if known or reasonably ascertainable by the member), and

    (c) a description of all debts of more than $500 that were owing by the member that were discharged or paid (in whole or in part) by any other person and the names of each of those persons, and

    (d) a description of each payment received, and not previously declared, by the member for activities in which the member was involved, including the source of each payment, except that a description is not required of any payment that is—

    (i) paid as salary or allowances under the Civil List Act 1979 or the Remuneration Authority Act 1977, or as a funding entitlement for parliamentary purposes under the Parliamentary Service Act 2000:

    (ii) paid in respect of any activity in which the member concluded his or her involvement prior to becoming a member (that is, before the commencement of a period set out in clause 9(2)(b) or (d), as applicable).

    (2) The information referred to in subclause (1)(a) does not have to be included in the return if the travel costs or accommodation costs (as the case may be) were paid by the following or any combination of the following:

    (a) the member:

    (b) the member’s spouse or domestic partner:

    (c) any parent, child, stepchild, foster-child, or grandchild of the member:

    (d) the Crown:

    (e) any government, parliament, or international parliamentary organisation, if the primary purpose of the travel was in connection with an official parliamentary visit.

    (3) For the purposes of subclause (1)(b), gift—

    (a) includes hospitality and donations in cash or kind other than donations made to cover expenses in an electoral campaign:

    (b) excludes gifts received from family members (that is, any of the following: the member’s spouse or domestic partner or any parent, child, stepchild, foster-child, or grandchild of the member).

    (4) For the purposes of subclause (1)(d), a description of a payment is required if the terms of the payment have been agreed in the period specified in clause 9, even if the payment has not been received during that period.

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Was the visit to Oravida by the Minister of Justice ‘ in connection with an official parliamentary visit’?

    What’s the ROLE of the Minister of Justice?

    http://www.justice.govt.nz/publications/global-publications/m/moj-annual-report-july08-june09/role-of-the-ministry

    Role of the Ministry

    Role of the Ministry

    The Ministry of Justice (the Ministry) provides a range of services on behalf of the Government and supports the Minister of Justice and Associate Minister of Justice, the Minister for Courts, the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, the Attorney-General and the Minister Responsible for the Law Commission.

    The Minister of Justice is the lead Minister and is the Minister responsible for the financial performance of the Ministry.

    The Ministry has the following functions:

    provision of policy advice

    leadership of the justice sector

    delivery of operational services, including court and tribunal-related services, collection of fines and reparations, electoral services and negotiations for settling historical Treaty of Waitangi claims

    provision of support to the judiciary

    management of non-departmental output classes.

    The maintenance of the separation of powers and the independence of each of the three branches of government is fundamental to New Zealand’s constitutional arrangements. Through the above functions, the Ministry has a pivotal and unique role in supporting both the executive and judicial arms of government.

    The Ministry administers three Votes: Justice, Courts and Treaty Negotiations.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    errrr…. so how does helping to increase the profile of Oravida fit into Judith Collin’s role as the Minister of Justice?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1405/S00029/raw-documents-mfat-oia-release-on-collins-oravida-dinner.htm

    Raw Documents: MFaT OIA Release on Collins’ Oravida Dinner

    Monday, 5 May 2014, 12:17 pm
    Article: Scoop News

    On Friday the Ministry of Foreign Affairs released documents on minister Judith Collins’ October visit to China. During the visist Collins had dinner with Stone Shi, owner of NZ food company Oravida, and an unnamed Chinese offical. She also visited Oravida headquarters, an event which the company used in promotional material. Collins’ husband is a director of Oravida and the company has made substantial donations to the National Party, which had led to allegation of conflict of interest.

    The following document was released to activist Penny Bright. It includes 102 pages of scanned documents and correspondence (with redactions) related to the dinner, the Oravida visit and Collins’ trip to China.

    On page 85 the purpose of the Oravida visit is described as “To increase the profile of a successful importer and distributor of New Zealand products into China”.

    Full document: OIA release on Judith Collins’ dinner with Oravida [PDF, 6.52MB]

    http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1405/020520141724330001.pdf

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

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  109. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    “but the NZ Gov’t wouldn’t accept my ceremonial marriage certificate from Australia.”

    Lucy, what is a Ceremonial Marriage Certificate ?

    I must say you are skating on thin-ice tinkering with marriage definitions here ! ;)

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  110. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Penny, thanks for all your informitive and very very comprehensive posts today. Keep up the good work :)

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  111. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    FYI – more RULES regarding Ministerial travel:

    http://cabinetmanual.cabinetoffice.govt.nz/2.100

    Ministerial travel

    Overseas travel

    2.100 Overseas travel by Ministers or Parliamentary Under-Secretaries can provide important benefits to their portfolios and to New Zealand generally.

    2.101 To ensure that their travel is approved properly and undertaken in an appropriate manner, Ministers must follow the principles set out in paragraphs 2.103 – 2.116, and the more detailed procedural guidance contained in the Ministerial Office Handbook and the CabGuide.

    2.102 This guidance applies to all Ministers (inside and outside Cabinet) and Parliamentary Under-Secretaries. References to Ministers include Parliamentary Under-Secretaries.

    Purpose of travel

    2.103 Ministers’ travel should usually be for one or more of the following purposes relating to their portfolios:

    to attend specific conferences, meetings, and events;
    to familiarise themselves with specific issues;
    to meet international obligations.

    Approval of travel

    2.104 Travel proposals, including proposals to attend Australian Standing Council meetings, require the preliminary approval of the Prime Minister. A Cabinet paper proposing the travel must subsequently be submitted to and approved by Cabinet. Ministers must seek the agreement of another Minister or Ministers to act for them during their proposed period of absence. (See paragraphs 2.39 – 2.42.) No commitments or understandings regarding overseas travel are to be entered into before the Prime Minister’s preliminary approval is given.

    2.105 Where there is any doubt about travel to a particular destination (for example, for international relations reasons), the request for the Prime Minister’s approval must be supported by a recommendation from the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

    2.106 When considering proposals for overseas travel by Ministers, the Prime Minister will take into account the numbers of Ministers overseas at any one time. Usual practice is for no more than four Ministers in Cabinet to be absent from New Zealand on official business at any one time, although the Prime Minister may approve exceptions to this limit in special circumstances.

    2.107 The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade coordinates arrangements for Ministers’ official visits overseas, and circulates guidance from time to time concerning the support provided by New Zealand’s overseas posts. Early contact with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade should be made through the office of the Minister of Foreign Affairs to ensure focused and coordinated programmes overseas. Ministers’ offices should not contact overseas posts directly.

    Travel costs

    2.108 Any proposal that a Minister accept the payment of international airfares or other travel-related costs by another country or international organisation must be approved by the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Prime Minister, and included in the Cabinet paper.

    2.109 Any proposals for bodies other than government organisations to fund any of the travel, accommodation, or other expenses incurred by Ministers should be assessed in light of the guidance on the public duty and personal interests of Ministers. See in particular paragraphs 2.56, 2.60, and 2.61, and the guidance on gifts (paragraphs 2.78 – 2.82 and 2.93). The Secretary of the Cabinet is available for advice.

    Accompanying family members, staff, and officials

    2.110 It may be appropriate for a Minister to be accompanied by a spouse, partner, or family member as a member of the official party. Approval is not given automatically; the Prime Minister will consider requests on a case-by-case basis.

    2.111 Ministers may be accompanied on overseas visits by staff from their own offices or officials from their departments.
    The number of accompanying staff must be kept to an absolute minimum, and should be determined in light of the nature of the visit.

    Reporting on overseas travel

    2.112 Within a month of their return, Ministers must report to Cabinet on the achievements and outcomes of their overseas travel.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

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  112. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    Penny
    Will it seems like she didnt need to declare it so long as it was her actual costs. If she got more than that then shes in trouble

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  113. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    Judith – the OIA was from Murray McCully’s office – not Judith Collins’.

    I’m STILL waiting for OIAs from Judith Collins.

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  114. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    FYI – more RULES regarding Ministerial travel:

    Thanks Penny. I misplaced my copy and have been lost without it. :)

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  115. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    RRM (9,077 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 3:27 pm
    Penny – have you disclosed who donated that $10k to you yet?
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    errrr….. what $10K might that be ANONYMOUS/ GUTLESS RRM?

    It’s news to me!

    Got any FACTS or EVIDENCE to back up that bit of bullshit?

    DESPERATE stuff ‘RRM’ – but do keep trying ……

    (Proves I’m on the right track :)

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

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  116. calendar girl (1,232 comments) says:

    Penny @ 12:24pm – “In my opinion, expecting the highest ethical standards from John Key, ex-Wall Street banker who helped to set up the dodgy derivatives market is probably a VERY BIG ask?”

    Does your unexpected expertise in derivatives derive from your welding apprenticeship?

    These off-topic attempts to smear Key personally are becoming increasingly silly.

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  117. lilman (958 comments) says:

    Penny pay for your thieft first,then save the rest of the world.

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  118. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    What an amazing feat of engineering this represents. No country on earth was more committed to “green” energy, but reality eventually set in for the ideolistic Germans. This represents a triumph of pragamtism over fantasy and shows the very best of the human spirit. It brings a tear to my eye :)

    Moreover Gabriel was once the country’s environment minister and a devout believer in global warming and in Al Gore’s Inconvenient Truth…Many in attendance seemed unable to fathom what Gabriel was unloading: the heady days at the green energy feeding trough are over – live with it.

    This is a picture of the Bagger 288 Bucketwheel Excavator being transported to its new home at the massive Garzweiler open-pit Lignite (brown coal) mine in Western Germany.

    These massive strip-mining machines are up to 315 feet high and 721 feet long, weighing 13,500 metric tons and consuming 16.5 megawatts of electricity during a typical day of operation. It can excavate 240,000 tons of coal or 240,000 cubic meters of overburden in a single day — the equivalent of a football field, 98 feet deep (Wikipedia).

    The tiny western German ghost town of Immerath is making room for the hungry excavators of one of the country’s biggest coal mines.

    Between them the old and the new pit are the size of central Paris.

    Lignite, known as brown coal has the lowest amount of energy and highest amount of sulfur — it’s ranked DEAD LAST in EROI- Energy Returned On Invested in the coal family.

    As an unintended side effect of Germany’s “energy transition”, the pollutant coal accounts for 40 percent of electricity production in the country, against 25 percent on average in Europe.

    http://srsroccoreport.com/germany-death-of-renewable-energy-bring-on-the-dirty-coal-monsters/germany-death-of-renewable-energy-bring-on-the-dirty-coal-monsters/

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  119. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1405/S00201/collins-knew-about-cover-up.htm

    Makes it murkier. Why do it one year and not the next if you aren’t required to?

    Even if you aren’t actually required to, it does look suspicious, especially if Peters is correct and all other ministers have done so in similar circumstances.

    Anyone know about that?

    My guess is that this story is going to have to be munched over for a few days until it makes sense one way or the other.

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  120. martinh (1,257 comments) says:

    Tom
    yeah good call, thats might be why Peters says gone by monday not today

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  121. goldnkiwi (1,304 comments) says:

    And………? Winstone must be scared of Judith.

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  122. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (344 comments) says:

    For days, Peters has been claiming he has a smoking gun that would see Prime Minister John Key sack Collins.
    But in farcical scenes during Question Time, it took several attempts for him to make the allegations, as he was blocked by Speaker David Carter.
    His stumbling caused Key to remark: ”I don’t understand the information that the member has got or the allegation… if the member could just speak a bit more clearly it might help everyone including the media.”

    Peters, who was sweating heavily while talking to reporters, says other ministers have declared travel paid for by other Governments. ”It’s a series of smoking guns and this is one of them.”
    Peters criticised Carter, saying his rulings ”were absolute legal drivel.”
    ”If he thinks he’s going to shut me down he has got the wrong guy…it’s game set and match in any games where facts matter.”

    Had Peters been drinking?

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  123. Don the Kiwi (1,750 comments) says:

    Peters is full of shit most of the time – I wouldn’t hold my breath expecting him to be correct.

    Key could well be leading him down the path to self-destruct .

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  124. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    Kea,

    Lucy, what is a Ceremonial Marriage Certificate ?

    It’s the document you sign after the vows are made, with witness signatures on it as well, I think.

    I must say you are skating on thin-ice tinkering with marriage definitions here ! ;)

    Not me. Governments and their silly rules, thinking that a form from a computer system is better than the original document that was signed and witnessed. Not a problem for couples married in NZ, because the database can just be looked up for verification, but my marriage was in Australia, and for that nothing less than a computer printout from the Australian Government (not sure if state or federal at this point) will do.

    Ironic really, because the NZ Government considers me married anyway, given that I’ve been living with my husband for more than the required time, whatever it is (2 years?).

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  125. mandk (993 comments) says:

    @ Puzzled,
    I was going to ask the same thing, but I think the correct term is “tired and emotional”.
    He definitely looked like he was having trouble standing up and getting his words out.

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  126. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “It’s at least a little hilarious that supporting the ordination of women makes you a bit of a radical.”

    Not so much in the Anglican Church any more. It’s pretty much widely accepted.

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  127. cha (4,010 comments) says:

    From the U.S, more intolerance toward anyone who dares have an opinion that is deemed “anti-gay”, or in any way is critical of homosexuals or homosexuality.

    And less than a day after he was drafted Michael Sam’s is the number 2 rookie-selling jersey.

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/05/12/michael-sams-jersey-ranks-2nd-in-nfl-rookie-sales-manziel-tops-list/

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  128. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “Had Peters been drinking?”

    Probably. I also suspect he has overplayed his hand and talked this up to a degree that does not match what he actually has.

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  129. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Had Peters been drinking?

    Of course not. That was a Slater inspired Twitter piece of misdirection.

    “Remember kids, don’t look at the accusations against my friend, just speculate on whether the person making them was drunk”.

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  130. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Not me. Governments and their silly rules,

    Lucy, entirely my position. Not sure why NZ was so fussy about it. Maybe you should have married a woman.

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  131. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Ironic really, because the NZ Government considers me married anyway, given that I’ve been living with my husband for more than the required time, whatever it is (2 years?).

    So, since de facto relationships are a liberal government plot, you are actually living in sin…

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  132. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Has Peters Been Drinking?

    Why, will that make anything Collins has done, more acceptable? If Peters has been drinking, will that mean Collins is automatically deemed to be ‘correct’ for not being open and transparent about this whole debacle?

    Talk about shoot the messenger – unlike Collins, Peters is doing his job – he is asking the questions people in the electorate want answers to. Collins is not answering the questions, because she doesn’t want people in the electorate to know the answers. One is asking for a promise of openness to be met, the other is using every trick in the book not to give it.

    People don’t use every excuse they can find not to talk, unless they have something to hide. The more of this sort of game playing continues the more I am convinced Collins is as guilty as sin.

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  133. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    Tom,

    So, since de facto relationships are a liberal government plot, you are actually living in sin…

    Haha!

    Already actually did that for a number of years, and got it all fixed a few years back – we even have a Radical Sanation from the Church. (Something else for Kea to look up.)

    The marriage exists even if the State doesn’t recognise it. :)

    Kea,

    Can’t marry a woman, it’s impossible. Kind of like the impossibility of women being priests (… sorry, Shawn!)

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  134. lilman (958 comments) says:

    I remember on radio,larry Williams,Collins said the trip was funded with help from the Chinese,so she wasnt hiding the funding from anyone,as if I knew then it certainly no secret.

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  135. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “Talk about shoot the messenger – unlike Collins, Peters is doing his job”

    In this case the messenger has a history of corruption himself. So exactly why should we take anything he says seriously?

    “Peters attracted media attention in 2008 over controversial payments for legal services and party donations. He had received $100,000 in 2006 to fund legal costs of challenging the election of Bob Clarkson to the Tauranga electorate. The money came from Owen Glenn, a wealthy New Zealand businessman and philanthropist based in Monaco. Under parliamentary rules any gift to MPs over the value of $500 must be relinquished. Peters denied knowing about the source of the money but this was not corroborated by his lawyer Brian Henry and Glenn contradicted Peters’ denial.[44]

    The Vela family, prominent in the racing industry, had donated $150,000 to Peters over a four-year period. The payments were made in sums of $10,000 in order to remain within rules governing political party funding.

    The Dominion Post published details from New Zealand First sources that before the 2005 election $25,000 had been donated to the party from Bob Jones via the Spencer Trust. The Trust is administered by Wayne Peters, a brother of Winston Peters. Jones confirmed that he had paid the money to the Spencer Trust and was asked by Winston Peters to make the donation.[45] Peters denies that he had asked Jones for a donation to the party.[46] The donation was not declared to the Electoral Commission as required by law.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Peters

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  136. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    FYI Kiwibloggers – the FACTS:

    DECLARATIONS OF OVERSEAS TRAVEL ON 2013 REGISTER OF PECUNIARY INTERESTS BY OTHER MINISTERS:

    http://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-nz/00CLOOCMPPFinInterests20131/81c45435af0d96d4fd10e90e07d543ccd107f325

    Rt Hon John Key (National, Helensville)

    10 Overseas travel costs
    Indonesia – official visit
    Singapore – official visit
    Korea – official visit
    Belgium – official visit
    United Kingdom – official visit
    Germany – official visit
    Australia – official visit
    Rarotonga – official visit
    Samoa – official visit
    Russia – official visit
    Japan – official visit
    United States – official visit
    Cambodia – official visit
    Myanmar – official visit
    The primary expenses relating to all this travel were funded by the Crown. Some accommodation, internal flights, and/or other incidental expenses were met by the host Government.

    Hon Simon Bridges (National, Tauranga)

    10 Overseas travel costs
    Singapore – Lee Kuan Yew Exchange Fellowship. Contributor to travel and
    accommodation: Singapore Government.

    Hon Bill English (National, Clutha-Southland)

    10 Overseas travel costs
    Japan – attendance at the World Bank Annual Meeting. Contributor to travel:
    World Bank, in relation to attending the annual meeting of the Board of Governors

    Hon Steven Joyce (National, List)

    10 Overseas travel costs

    Oman – travel related to Ministerial portfolio.
    Contributor to accommodation:
    Government of the Sultanate of Oman.
    Saudi Arabia – travel related to Ministerial portfolio.
    Contributor to accommodation: Government of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
    Indonesia – attendance at East Asia Summit Education Ministers Meeting.
    Contributor to accommodation: Government of the Republic of Indonesia.

    Hon Nikki Kaye (National, Auckland Central)

    10 Overseas travel costs

    United States – international exchange with other Members of Parliament,
    designed to gain a better understanding of politics, governance, policy-making in the United States.
    Contributor to travel and accommodation: American Council of Young Political Leaders.

    Hon Hekia Parata (National, List)

    10 Overseas travel costs
    United States – 2nd International Summit on the Teaching Profession. Contributor to accommodation: US Department of Education.

    Hon Tony Ryall (National, Bay of Plenty)

    10 Overseas travel costs
    United States – participation at conference. Contributor to accommodation: The Commonwealth Fund.

    Hon Maurice Williamson (National, Pakuranga)

    10 Overseas travel costs
    Australia – attendance at board meeting. Contributor to travel and accommodation: Holyoake Industries Limited.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

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  137. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Can’t marry a woman, it’s impossible.

    Been there done that Lucy ! :)

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  138. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “Kind of like the impossibility of women being priests (… sorry, Shawn!)”

    You Papists will catch up sooner or later! ;)

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  139. Steve (North Shore) (4,561 comments) says:

    Is John Key playing Poker with Winstone? or Last Card?

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  140. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (344 comments) says:

    Judith – Has Peters Been Drinking?

    Perhaps when he was pouring over the Cabinet Manual.
    He has done enough ministerial travel himself to know that another country part sponsoring travel and accommodation is not unusual and is not a pecuniary matter.
    Such travel matters are not usually handled personally by the Minister.
    He has nothing and knows it.
    He has several [well, two] options in raising the matter and is not following the most logical.
    He is wasting the time of Parliament.
    Horan shows Winston has other matters of his own to attend to.

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  141. Don the Kiwi (1,750 comments) says:

    “You Papists will catch up sooner or later! ;)”

    Will never happen in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, Shawn. You guys lost the meaning of the priesthood when you sided with the Lutherans way back in the 16th. century. :-)

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  142. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Kind of like the impossibility of women being priests (… sorry, Shawn!)

    Lucy, the rot set in when we let you ladies vote. After that it all became political. Most of the social changes that so upset Christians (and the odd atheist !) are championed by women. Single young women being paid to produce kids, gay marriages, race issues, gender issues, environmental issues and the whole PC bandwagon are all led by women and a few weak men who will play along hoping to get some pussy.

    Call Kea all the names you like, but you are smart enough to know what I am pointing at ;)

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  143. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Puzzled in Ekatahuna (336 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 5:27 pm

    I am fully aware of what a lush Peters can be, and regardless of what Horan has to say, or any other thing you can drag up, it still won’t make Collins in the right.

    Collins is hiding something, and I think it is pathetic and very weak to excuse her by rubbishing the person that is asking for the truth.

    I sincerely hope none of you raise your children in the same way – “its okay little Johnny, as long as you point out how the other naughty person is naughty, you can get away with whatever you like”. What you lot are doing is blardy shocking. Questions have been asked by people in the electorate, and Collins needs to answer them – trying to shift the emphasis will not make it go away, nor will it make Collins right.

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  144. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “Will never happen in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,”

    Already has in our branch. ;)

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  145. tom hunter (4,830 comments) says:

    “Had Peters been drinking?”

    Probably. I also suspect he has overplayed his hand and talked this up to a degree that does not match what he actually has.

    Meanwhile Kiwiblog’s dumbest commentator Hamnida Hamnida 2 Samuel Smith, continues to be surprised by Winston’s failure to pony up:

    Samuel Smith (276 comments) says:
    May 12th, 2014 at 2:06 pm
    Looks like Collins could be gone by tea time.

    Instead it was Peters. Surely we’re approaching broken-clock-twice-a-day with this commentator.

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  146. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (2,445 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 5:21 pm

    It doesn’t matter what Peters have done. If you are concerned get your local MP to ask questions of him in house.

    Excusing Collins for not being open and transparent just because Peters is the person asking the questions is NOT right.

    I fail to see why Collins will not just ‘open the books’ unless she has something to hide, and the longer she hides, the more obvious it is that she does. I guess she is just waiting for people like you to come along and make her sins all go away, because there is someone else in the house that is naughty! Two wrongs don’t make a right Shawn.

    Any hatred for Peters does not absolve Collins – and frankly I’m surprised you think it does.

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  147. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “It doesn’t matter what Peters have done.”

    Of course it does. People who are guilty of corruption have no right to preach on the issue.

    “Any hatred for Peters does not absolve Collins – and frankly I’m surprised you think it does.”

    I don’t hate him, I’m simply pointing out that he is a monumental hypocrite. I posted facts about Peters Judith, not hatred.

    The point remains that regardless of what Collins did or did not do, most of her attackers are guilty of corruption themselves. Cunliffe with his secret trusts, Norman with his not so secret attempts to curry favour with DotCon, and Peters.

    If your so concerned with corruption, why are you not demanding that Cunliffe, Norman and Peters also resign?

    Or is this just another example of you being motivated by your personal animosity rather than the facts?

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  148. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    People who are guilty of corruption Wrong doing/Sin have no right to preach on the issue.

    ShawnLH, you did not think that out very well.

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  149. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    Peters normally has something. Though, maybe he’s losing his mojo, I don’t know. Given that there was quite a bit of effort to shut him up, I don’t think it’s over, unless the mojo is completely gone, that is.

    Kea,

    Lucy, the rot set in when we let you ladies vote. After that it all became political. Most of the social changes that so upset Christians (and the odd atheist !) are championed by women. Single young women being paid to produce kids, gay marriages, race issues, gender issues, environmental issues and the whole PC bandwagon are all led by women and a few weak men who will play along hoping to get some pussy.

    Call Kea all the names you like, but you are smart enough to know what I am pointing at ;)

    Going to have to disagree with you here. It’s always possible to go further back, until anther reason and then another and another is found as to why everything went wrong. However, the only real point of absolute rot was right back in the Garden of Eden, when Adam let his wife talk to a serpent…

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  150. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (2,446 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 5:47 pm

    So because you think these people are corrupt, you think Collins should get away with it? I have to say, I hope our criminals don’t get hold of that excuse – its going to play havoc with our Justice System.

    My take is that I want to know what has gone on with Collins – I am a member of the Electorate, and I want the questions asked and answered. MP’s are in the house to represent us, and regardless of whether you believe them to be corrupt or not, if the electorate wants them to ask questions, then they are expected to do it. Collins does not get away with it, just because others may have and MPs do not get to be useless and not do what is asked of them, because they have made previous mistakes or because some believe they are just as corrupt.

    All over the net there are people asking questions, wanting answers about Collins actions.

    The fact is, Peters shouldn’t be asking those questions, because EVERYTHING Collins did on a trip where she is representing our country should have been declared even if the rules don’t require it. It should be declared because the electorate has asked for it, and if she is setting the example Key promised, then it would have been done in reply to those questions when first asked.

    Again, your attempts to excuse Collins because others have behaved shockingly is pathetic. John Key promised us his government would be open and transparent and nothing like what we have witnessed from others – but the fact remains, it is looking like it is just as bad.

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  151. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Lucy, So you disagreed with me, then worked your way around in a giant circle to arrive at an identical position that women caused it. Typical female logic !

    Why can’t women be Priests in many churches ?

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  152. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    If you believe in creation as proposed in the Bible, then Adam and Eve’s children would actually have had to have sex with one another for the Earth to have become populated.

    This is surely proof that Christchurch was at one time the Garden of Eden.

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  153. OneTrack (3,092 comments) says:

    Just watching Winston Peters on TV news. Does anybody still honestly think he will, or will be allowed to, go with National?

    Won’t happen. Vote Winston, get green.

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  154. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Lucia, who says they were married? And one only sounds like one is talking to a serpent when one is saying the name of Isis.

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  155. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Happy Vesak Day nasska. May you find enlightenment. :)

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  156. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ OneTrack (2,070 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 6:13 pm

    Vote National – get Collins. Doesn’t seem to matter who you vote for – the result is going to be the same – Corruption to suit the needs of the few, over the needs of the many on offer from all parties.

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  157. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    Kea,

    No, women didn’t cause it. The sin was Adam’s – not Eve’s. That’s why a man (Jesus) had to undo it.

    Women can’t be priests, because the Christian priesthood giving Jesus Christ a body to continue the Sacraments on earth. Jesus was both priest and victim, and the priesthood follows that model, and women are not called to do what Jesus did. Otherwise Mary would have died with her son at Golgotha, but she didn’t.

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  158. goldnkiwi (1,304 comments) says:

    Nasska, did Adam and Lilith have children? Then there would at least have been half brothers or sisters.

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  159. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    That sent me to Wikepedia Kea…..sounds like just another version of the God crap. :)

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  160. big bruv (13,886 comments) says:

    ” Otherwise Mary would have died with her son at Golgotha, but she didn’t.”

    Ah yes, Mary the virgin….lol, why does religion treat the birth canal as a one way passage?

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  161. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (344 comments) says:

    Judith – Collins is hiding something, and I think it is pathetic and very weak to excuse her by rubbishing the person that is asking for the truth.
    ______

    Collins is hiding something – your opinion

    Rubbishing Peters – I was just simply asking after his condition. He has just been on ONE NEWS, and was possibly drinking with lunch before Question Time or is a rather ill man – check it yourself.

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  162. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    goldnkiwi

    I’m flogging Wikipedia tonight:

    …..”Lilith (Hebrew: לילית‎; lilit, or lilith) is a Hebrew name for a figure in Jewish mythology, developed earliest in the Babylonian Talmud, who is generally thought to be in part derived from a class of female demons Līlīṯu in Mesopotamian texts of Assyria and Babylonia.”…..

    Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

    Female DEMONS! That’ll give the beads of the praying classes a workout. :)

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  163. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    No, women didn’t cause it. The sin was Adam’s – not Eve’s.

    LOL :)

    So it was a “mans” fault Eve disobeyed God and ate the dam apple ! More twisted convoluted female logic. You were right that a man was sent to sort the mess out though.

    Well that answers my second question about why you cant be a Priest. You are incapable of reading a bible for starters ;)

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  164. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Lucia, if Yeshua was a willing sacrifice, was he not both Cain and Abel, and thus eating his body has us partake of the Cain Abel body – making cannibals of all who do so?

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  165. big bruv (13,886 comments) says:

    “Women can’t be priests”

    Seems that this is indeed a good idea. So many people can relate horror stories of being abused by vicious nasty spinsters who spend their life repressing what comes natural to all humans.

    Face it Lucia, the entire Catholic church is one sick puppy, if it is not the Priests sexually abusing vulnerable children then it is the Nuns taking out their sexual frustrations on those same vulnerable children.

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  166. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Puzzled in Ekatahuna (337 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 6:21 pm

    Collins is hiding something – your opinion

    As an example: Has Collins given the name of the Chinese Border Official she had dinner with?

    Collins hiding something is NOT an opinion, it is a fact. For a start she is hiding that name. Key says its alright for her not to reveal the details that have been requested. Whether he his right or not and the rules say she doesn’t have to, doesn’t matter – the fact she will not reveal them, means she is hiding them.

    IF she has done nothing wrong, why won’t she simply make all that information available for all to see and make all this go away?

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  167. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Bringing happiness to others
    Celebrating Vesākha also means making special efforts to bring happiness to the unfortunate like the aged, the handicapped and the sick. To this day, Buddhists will distribute gifts in cash and kind to various charitable homes throughout the country. Vesākha is also a time for great joy and happiness, expressed not by pandering to one’s appetites but by concentrating on useful activities such as decorating and illuminating temples, painting and creating exquisite scenes from the life of the Buddha for public dissemination. Devout Buddhists also vie with one another to provide refreshments and vegetarian food to followers who visit the temple to pay homage to the Enlightened One.[citation needed]

    Paying homage to the Buddha
    Tradition ascribes to the Buddha himself instruction on how to pay him homage. Just before he died, he saw his faithful attendant Ananda, weeping. The Buddha advised him not to weep, but to understand the universal law that all compounded things (including even his own body) must disintegrate. He advised everyone not to cry over the disintegration of the physical body but to regard his teachings (The Dhamma) as their teacher from then on, because only the Dhamma truth is eternal and not subject to the law of change. He also stressed that the way to pay homage to him was not merely by offering flowers, incense, and lights, but by truly and sincerely striving to follow his teachings. This is how Buddhists are expected to celebrate Vesak: to use the opportunity to reiterate their determination to lead noble lives, to develop their minds, to practise loving-kindness and to bring peace and harmony to humanity.

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  168. Northland Wahine (667 comments) says:

    Lilith… Said to be Adams first wife. Refused to lay beneath him so left on her own accord…

    All fairy tales whatever way you look at it…

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  169. OneTrack (3,092 comments) says:

    “– unlike Collins, Peters is doing his job – ” – He’s not doing it very well then. When is the next grand expose in the ongoing drama?

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  170. goldnkiwi (1,304 comments) says:

    Nasska if you look at other entries Lilith considered herself Adam’s equal as she too was made from the earth. Women are often demonised lol if not subservient. ;)

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  171. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    So Eve was the off course substitute when Adam dipped out on playing hide the sausage with Lilth the Demoness.

    Christ….you Godnutters can’t keep things simple. No wonder you confuse the children. :)

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  172. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    No, women didn’t cause it. The sin was Adam’s – not Eve’s.

    Genesis

    3 The snake was sneakier than any of the other wild animals that the Lord God had made. One day it came to the woman and asked, “Did God tell you not to eat fruit from any tree in the garden?”

    2 The woman answered, “God said we could eat fruit from any tree in the garden, 3 except the one in the middle. He told us not to eat fruit from that tree or even to touch it. If we do, we will die.”

    4 “No, you won’t!” the snake replied. 5 “God understands what will happen on the day you eat fruit from that tree. You will see what you have done, and you will know the difference between right and wrong, just as God does.”

    6 The woma stared at the fruit. It looked beautiful and tasty. She wanted the wisdom that it would give her, and she ate some of the fruit. Her husband was there with her, so she gave some to him, and he ate it too. 7 Right away they saw what they had done, and they realized they were naked. Then they sewed fig leaves together to make something to cover themselves.

    The moral is you can never REASON with a women :)

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  173. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Lilith sounds like someone’s twin sister. Reputed to covet seed from Jewish men but not so willing to lie down with one.

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  174. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    So, the climax on mainstreet.

    Winston threw down … but as he looked down he discovered to his horror that instead of a smoking .44 … he was holding a smoking turd.

    The big question is whether the drunken dwarf was pissed from lunch or still pissed from the night before.

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  175. goldnkiwi (1,304 comments) says:

    I am sure he could have been just as happy letting her be on top!!! Cut off his nose to spite his face in some ways ;).

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  176. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (344 comments) says:

    Judith –
    Why should Collins name the Chinese guest if it was a private event. Why make that person a focus of media attention, which, if it is handled by the likes of Winston, could be embarrassing and particularly unhelpful.

    (Key has said he knows the name and it is not of consequence, which may have already diminished the private guest’s standing. It’s a little like fucking Greenpeace dealing with the Japanese – no bloody idea)

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  177. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    Kea,

    Adam was given the task to keep and till the garden. Part of that job was to keep dangerous things out. The serpent was in the garden, Adam saw it and let it talk to his wife. Eve was tempted by the serpent, yet Adam still did nothing. He didn’t stop her from eating the fruit and even when given it by his wife, he ate it too, without a word of protest. When Adam and Eve were both questioned by God, Eve was very upfront with what she did, but not Adam. He obfuscated, then blamed his actions on his wife.

    Many people over the ages have blamed Eve for original sin, but in reality, and from what I’ve been taught, Eve’s sin was not enough to cause the problem. She ate the fruit, but readily admitted her fault before God. Adam was the one who caused the rupture with God because he was tasked with looking after the garden and Eve, and he did not do that. In other words, he failed as a man before Eve even ate the fruit. And then afterwards, he couldn’t admit what he had done and had to blame it on Eve.

    Women are always blamed, but when it comes to it, behind every woman who does wrong is a man seeking to walk away without anyone noticing what he has done. All those women having babies without fathers – no immaculate conception there, men needed to be involved.

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  178. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Kea

    Before you get stuck into Lucy, you need to bear in mind that all this stuff pre-dates Greenacres, Jim’s etc. So it is quite understandable that Adam was created to do the lawns, trim the edges etc.

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  179. Fletch (6,384 comments) says:

    They’re telling us on the news that ice is melting in the Antarctic (yes, the Antarctic – I checked), and yet a few days ago we were told by the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSID), with the support of the NASA Earth Sciences, that Antarctic sea ice has expanded to all-time record levels for April.

    In the Southern Hemisphere, autumn is well underway, and sea ice extent is growing rapidly. Antarctic sea ice extent for April 2014 reached 9.00 million square kilometers (3.47 million square miles), the largest ice extent on record by a significant margin. This exceeds the past record for the satellite era by about 320,000 square kilometers (124,000 square miles), which was set in April 2008.

    Figure 6b. The graph above shows Antarctic sea ice extent as of May 5, 2014, along with daily ice extent data for four previous years. 2014 is shown in blue, 2013 in green, 2011 in orange, 2007 in brown, and 2006 in purple. The 1981 to 2010 average is in dark gray. Sea Ice Index data.

    Credit: National Snow and Ice Data Center
    High-resolution image

    Following near-record levels in March, a slightly higher-than-average rate of increase led to a record April ice extent, compared to the satellite record since 1978. During April, ice extent increased by an average of 112,600 square kilometers (43,500 square miles) per day. Ice extent on April 30 was a record for that day; record levels continue to be set in early May.

    Sea ice extent anomalies are highest in the eastern Weddell Sea (south of the South Atlantic Ocean near longitudes 45°W to 10°E) and along a long stretch of coastline south of Australia and the southeastern Indian Ocean (spanning 40°E to 170°E longitude). These areas of unusual ice extent are following similar anomalies seen in March. April also saw significant ice growth in the Bellingshausen and Amundsen Seas, one of the few regions with lower-than-average ice extents in March. Antarctic sea ice has now been significantly above the satellite average level for 16 consecutive months.

    http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

    So, which is it?

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  180. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    ….”All those women having babies without fathers – no immaculate conception there, men needed to be involved.”…..

    No exceptions! :)

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  181. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Eve was tempted by the serpent, yet Adam still did nothing.

    Lucy, so women have no inherent morality and require a male to save them from sin. Even the Taliban would find that a bit rough on women !

    But Riddle Me This: Why did God not stop her ? In fact why did he put a snake in there in the first place ? (Now you have totally destroyed the “freewill” argument I can’t wait to hear your answer)

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  182. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Kea

    As Lucy said, G** delegated to Adam and Adam fucked up. Adam’s delegated task was to not only eradicate the privet, but also keep Eve on the S&N.

    The better question is why G** delegated to Adam; a deadbeat. I suspect it was because G** had ADD and was desperate to find someone – anyone – to take care of the detail.

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  183. CharlieBrown (1,011 comments) says:

    Read some interesting articles in the NBR today by Matthew Hooton and Stephen Franks today. They both seemed quite critical of the nats about various things but if I was to generalize their criticism it was along the lines that the National party are institutionalising (and in Stephen Joyce’s case growing it) the socialism and authoritarian government policies that Helen Clark gave us. It was refreshing to see most comments in there agreeing with them.

    One of the comments summed up how I feel about the current government “John Key is the most successful labour Prime minister ever.”

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  184. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    …”Before you get stuck into Lucy, you need to bear in mind that all this stuff pre-dates Greenacres, Jim’s etc. So it is quite understandable that Adam was created to do the lawns, trim the edges etc.”….

    Our gender is also utilised to hew wood & slay vermin Davinci. :)

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  185. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘the National party are institutionalising (and in Stephen Joyce’s case growing it) the socialism that Helen Clark gave us’
    National – the party of the status quo.

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  186. ciaron (1,433 comments) says:

    Lucia is talking about roles (I think). one can have free will and be subordinate to another.
    It was Adams role to be CEO of the garden, hence, he was answerable to God for the stuff ups of his subordinates. In the end Adam and Eve chose to listen to the Serpent rather than trust God, and tried to put themselves on a even footing with God. when God calls them out of their hiding place, it’s the first game of pass the buck: She gave it to me, so I ate. The serpent deceived me, and I ate.

    Why wouldn’t you sack your CEO and the directors?

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  187. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Fletch, The AGW scam is over. The Germans have been the most committed of all greens. No country has been more fanatical, focused and intent in implementing green goals. They were the first to form a Green political movement. They have access to the very best technology available. It has cost them insane amounts of money and it has all FAILED.

    This link will shock you. It shocked even me. Listen to the former Gore worshiping minister speak. “the heady days at the green energy feeding trough are over – live with it.” Be in awe at the incredibly GIGANTIC coal mining operation underway now.

    The battle has turned.

    http://srsroccoreport.com/germany-death-of-renewable-energy-bring-on-the-dirty-coal-monsters/germany-death-of-renewable-energy-bring-on-the-dirty-coal-monsters/

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  188. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    The gender is also utilised to hew wood & slay vermin Davinci

    The genesis of nagging nasska.

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  189. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    ciaron, no the bible does not say “Adam and Eve chose to listen to the Serpent”

    It really says this:

    1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat,

    What part are you confused about ? I am happy to help you.

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  190. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    Kea,

    Lucy, so women have no inherent morality and require a male to save them from sin.

    Interesting interpretation, but no. There are levels of sin. What Eve did was wrong, and she knew it was wrong and she admitted it before God. However, her sin was not enough to cause Original Sin, especially since she did admit it.

    I referred to all of this because you tried to blame what is happening now on women. Sure, women are to some extent to blame, but so are men. Marxism uses class warfare and sex warfare to make inroads into society, and it succeeded with women because men, who are typically in charge of the political sphere, failed to keep it out.

    There’s a sci-fi series by C.S Lewis that illustrates the differences between men and women in his description of angels. The males being outward-looking and the females being inward-looking. If you look it up, you’ll find it insightful. Men have been given the gifts to be better at looking outward, in order to identify threats and neutralise them. By the time the threats get to women, we know that men have failed (for whatever reason). Women don’t recognise the outward threats in the same way, and will respond to the threats in a more accepting way, because our gifts are different, given that we look after new life.

    Blaming women for introducing outward threats without taking into account the failure of men of recognising and neutralising the threats in the first place is to place an undue burden on women and lets men get off the hook. The pattern for what is going wrong in society can be seen in that story in Genesis – it gets played out again and again and again.

    But Riddle Me This: Why did God not stop her ?

    Um, because Adam was there …

    In fact why did he put a snake in there in the first place ?

    God didn’t put the snake there, it came in by itself…

    (Now you have totally destroyed the “freewill” argument I can’t wait to hear your answer)

    No, I haven’t. :)

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  191. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    Did you see Baity boasting over 540 followers on Twitter Davinci?

    No mention of whether Justin Bieber was one of them. :)

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  192. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    If women will not listen to GOD then what chance does mere mortal man have ? :)

    Most of you cynical buggers will know the answer to that without biblical referral.

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  193. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    ciaron

    G** should have recruited them both on a 90 day trial period. It would have saved the world a lot of trouble and perhaps made Adam more receptive to the notion of executive responsibility.

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  194. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Lucy entering into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Popcorn time.

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  195. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    nasska, I can not see how baity could possibly condense his abusive brain farts into such a restricted field without losing the humour they are clearly designed to provide us with. He never was much of thinker though.

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  196. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    nasska

    The blowfly follows the dog dump. It is the way of things.

    But at 540 followers (539 kowtow proxies) it wouldn’t appear that [Aaron Neville font] “a change is gonna come”.

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  197. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Lucy, my head nearly burst with all the epic logic and reading comprehension fails in your post.

    Just wait for the Rapture dear and have fun in the mean time :)

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  198. freemark (580 comments) says:

    Is our own KB “Judith” actually Winston himself? Or maybe Peter Davis, or H2, or Cullen..or just one of the Gaggle?
    Something very fishy going on…

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  199. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘Lucy, my head nearly burst with all the epic logic and reading comprehension fails in your post.’
    Translation: ‘I don’t understand’.

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  200. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    That [7.20 pm] was a bit bitchy milkymug.

    Out of sorts or just a long day serving the nation?

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  201. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    Let’s see Kea….”cowardly, prog, homo, knuckle dragging, marxist, leftist scum”.

    55 characters already. Doesn’t leave much room for the message. :)

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  202. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    DVM
    Long day, shortish fuse with Kea’s non-stop nonsense. He fucked me off with his lies on the Taurima threa, too.

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  203. ciaron (1,433 comments) says:

    Genesis chapter 3 verse 2: the woman said to the serpent…

    That bit means they were having a conversation.

    Verse 3: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    That bit means she knew she was not to eat it.

    Verse 4: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die…..

    The Serpent is encouraging Eve to disobey God.

    verse 6:When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

    Eve does what the serpent has suggested, and gives some to Adam,who was with her. Does he say, hey God said not to eat that? or does he go along with it? I think he goes along with it because he heard the conversation and decided it was a good idea, so, Adam and Eve listened to, and were convinced by the serpent’s argument.

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  204. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    Wait until you hear the one about Goldilocks & the Three Bears ciaron. :)

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  205. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    milkymuggins

    Remember, you are the broad shoulders of the nation.

    We depend upon you to endure and not be distracted by the naughty Keas and the deadbeat Taurimas. It is your burden.

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  206. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    He fucked me off with his lies on the Taurima threa, too.

    Translation: He showed me up.

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  207. ciaron (1,433 comments) says:

    Disclaimer: I am not a YEC and have not reached a solid position on how Genesis 1-3 are to be read. I think there are good reasons for each reading, but I have a lot of other reading to do first :)

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  208. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Thanks DVM. I do my best each day as a dedicated public servant, as you well know, so I will stick up for those of us who toil each day to make this country better for everyone.

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  209. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    to make this country better for everyone.

    In the eye of any particular “beholder” milky?

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  210. SGA (1,025 comments) says:

    nasska at 7:29 pm

    ”cowardly, prog, homo, knuckle dragging, marxist, leftist scum”.
    55 characters already. Doesn’t leave much room for the message. :)

    That would be the major content of the message though, so there wouldn’t be much need for more room. There may even be a quintessential 140 characters that, once perfected, could be repeated regardless of topic?

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  211. ciaron (1,433 comments) says:

    thedavincimode (6,168 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 7:19 pm
    ciaron

    G** should have recruited them both on a 90 day trial period. It would have saved the world a lot of trouble and perhaps made Adam more receptive to the notion of executive responsibility.

    Maybe… if memory serves, God didn’t have a whole bunch of C.V.s to choose from, just some unqualified bloke called Adam and an an uppity angel called Beelzebub with aspirations above his station! :)

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  212. OneTrack (3,092 comments) says:

    mike – “National – the party of the status quo.”

    So, voting National this time then mike?

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  213. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    ….” There may even be a quintessential 140 characters that, once perfected, could be repeated regardless of topic?”…..

    Like a condensed version of his standard comments on Kiwiblog SGA.

    Should work…..it’s been done before. :)

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  214. SGA (1,025 comments) says:

    ciaron at 7:52 pm

    Maybe… if memory serves, God didn’t have a whole bunch of C.V.s to choose from, just some unqualified bloke called Adam and an an uppity angel called Beelzebub with aspirations above his station! :)

    Your comment reminded of Pratchett and Gaiman’s “Good Omens”. Might reread that sometime for light entertainment.

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  215. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    In the garden of Eden sat Adam,
    Massaging the tits of his madam,
    He chuckled with mirth,
    for he knew that on earth,
    there were only two boobs – and he had ‘em.

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  216. goldnkiwi (1,304 comments) says:

    Three as he was one !!!;)

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  217. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    No ciaron

    As I said, I think G** had ADD.

    If Winston has been staggering around spilling his drink or sleeping lunch or the night before off under a tree, he would have got the gig if G** had spotted him before spotting Adam sitting in the shade reading his Greenpeace newsletters.

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  218. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    News just in from Pyongyang…..North Korea have won Eurovision for the 27th year running.

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  219. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    nasska, milky will be pleased. He sees North Korea as the last great hope for a workers paradise.

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  220. ciaron (1,433 comments) says:

    Alright, time for a change of direction,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvRBUw_Ls2o

    best white rappers ever?

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  221. MT_Tinman (3,186 comments) says:

    nasska (9,778 comments) says:
    May 13th, 2014 at 6:10 pm
    If you believe in creation as proposed in the Bible, then Adam and Eve’s children would actually have had to have sex with one another for the Earth to have become populated.

    This is surely proof that Christchurch was at one time the Garden of Eden.

    Only the Labour bits Nasska, only the Labour bits

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  222. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    God didn’t put the snake there, it came in by itself

    Omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe surprised by random unexpected snake.

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  223. ciaron (1,433 comments) says:

    Omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe surprised by random unexpected snake.

    I don’t think so, Tim.

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  224. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    ….”only the Labour bits”…

    That’s a given MT_Tinman. :)

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  225. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘Adam and Eve’s children would actually have had to have sex with one another for the Earth to have become populated.’
    One of the godnutters may correct me, but I believe that Genesis refers to ‘other people’, implying that other humans were created for the children of Adam and Eve to marry. Cain wnet to the land of Nod, where he ‘knew’ his wife. Genesis is silent on how this wife came to be.

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  226. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    Problem is, Mikenmild, that interpretation gets in the way of the whole “congenital original sin” thing. If there are people who could technically trace their lineage back to someone who wasn’t involved in the Fall, they might not need Christ’s redemptive sacrifice.

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  227. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    they might not need Christ’s redemptive sacrifice.

    Jews, Hindus….

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  228. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    Jews, Hindus….

    All gunked up with original sin.

    Shouldn’t have been incarnated as a human, Hindus!

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  229. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    Who said God was surprised?

    Mike,

    Sorry, I probably made you waste your popcorn. My husband came in, and I did the dinner thing, plus listened to his day and gave advise and moral support and now it’s tidy time and getting everyone to go to bed early so the cat goes out early and comes back in time for me to go to bed.

    I don’t like dueling unarmed opponents, anyway. They’re no fun after the initial flurry.

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  230. Left Right and Centre (2,975 comments) says:

    Interesting interpretation, but no. There are levels of sin. What Eve did was wrong, and she knew it was wrong and she admitted it before God. However, her sin was not enough to cause Original Sin, especially since she did admit it.

    Like a child reciting Harry Potter in faithful detail . . .

    What – no reading a riveting chapter of the book of bollocks before bed ? No group hand-holding, praying, clapping and singing session ? No speaking in tongues ? Wow – where’s the fun ?

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  231. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    Who said God was surprised?

    Someone asked why God put the snake there.

    You said God didn’t put the snake there; it came in by itself.

    (As a quick aside: we are discussing the location and origin of a talking snake.)

    Did God create the snake, Lucia?

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  232. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull, All I know is that it must have been a man ! And even if it were a woman, it was a mans fault for letting her do it. :)

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  233. ciaron (1,433 comments) says:

    LRC, ever had a look at Lee Strobel’s The Case For Christ?

    You probably won’t find it convincing, but it may give you something to think about.

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  234. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    “Anyway, if you stop tellin’ people it’s all sorted out afer they’re dead, they might try sorting it all out while they’re alive. ”

    “Build a man a fire, and he’ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life.”

    ― Terry Pratchett

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  235. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Shit-a-brick griffy did a funny :)

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  236. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    Judith, your hysteria is getting the better of your brain.

    Nowhere did I ever say that Collins should get away with anything. Twice you have claimed that I’m saying that, but in neither of my posts did I say anything at all like that. Nor am I trying to excuse her at all.

    But I am pointing our the double standards, of both her accuses, and you.

    When I see posts about Cunliffe and Peters demanding they be sacked for their corruption, I’ll take you seriously.

    Until then it your posts just look like selective hypocrisy to me.

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  237. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    “Did God create the snake, Lucia?”

    You already know who the snake is, you were at theological college long enough, so why the question?

    The serpent is Satan, who’s own fall was prior to the fall of humanity.

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  238. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    You studied theology, didn’t you?

    Therefore you must know that the snake was actually Lucifer, who was created by God and because of his “non serviam” became a fallen angel whose sole purpose is to destroy humankind. Or did they not teach that where you studied?

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  239. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “One of the godnutters may correct me,”

    Unlikely if you start with insults. That kind of insulting questioning makes you no better than any other troll. Your usually better than that Mike.

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  240. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    That doesn’t entirely avoid the problem, Shawn and Lucia. Whether it was a snake or Lucifer in disguise, God created it with full knowledge of what it was going to do. Kea’s question could just as easily be rephrased as, “Why did he put a rebellious angel there in the first place?”

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  241. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Lucy, I think God was not a very clear writer. In fact it seems like you can’t believe a word he wrote ! Every time I present clear words from his best know book, I am advised (via very convoluted labyrinthyne comments that challenge all previously held notions of logic) it means the exact opposite of what it said :)

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  242. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “Or did they not teach that where you studied?”

    Possibly not, as it’s unfortunately a fairly ultra-liberal college.

    That said, Ryan has a good grasp on Christian theology, mostly, he’s read enough, and the identity of the serpent is pretty much common knowledge anyway, so not sure where his questions are coming from.

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  243. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    “You do know you could find yourself charged with being a dominant species while under the influence of impulse-driven consumerism, don’t you?”
    ― Terry Pratchett, Good Omens

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  244. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    ““Why did he put a rebellious angel there in the first place?””

    For the same reason he gave humanity free will.

    If you want a world in which love is possible, then love by it’s very nature must be freely chosen. In order to be and do good, you need the choice to be and do evil.

    Freedom is the answer to your question. And freedom to love and do good means the freedom to choose the opposite.

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  245. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Sorry Shawn. I meant to say ‘religious enthusiasts’. It just slipped out like, well, a serpent in the garden.

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  246. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    Unlikely if you start with insults.

    Now that is a bit rich ShawnLH coming from you. Aside from the hysterical remarks directed at a harmless and lovable parrot, some of the stuff you have said about my dear friend UglyTruth would make Satan blush ;)

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  247. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    For the same reason he gave humanity free will.

    If you want a world in which love is possible, then love by it’s very nature must be freely chosen. In order to be and do good, you need the choice to be and do evil.

    Freedom is the answer to your question. And freedom to love and do good means the freedom to choose the opposite.

    Bracketing for a moment the fact that “free will” is a contradiction in terms, much like “square circle”…

    So God knew that the angel He created would choose to rebel? And that’s why He created it?

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  248. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    Mike, if you stop using phrases like “godnutters” I promise to remember my apostrophes in words like “you’re” ;)

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  249. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    ““Why did he put a rebellious angel there in the first place?””

    For the same reason he gave humanity free will.

    Hold on a minute and back up to where this began.

    Lucy claimed it was Adams fault Eve ate the forbidden fruit and listened to the serpent. Because he did not stop her (removing her free will).

    Now remember Adam knew nothing of sin. What would you have Adam do ? Drag the bitch off to the other side of the garden and give her a clip under the ear ?

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  250. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “So God knew that the angel He created would choose to rebel? And that’s why He created it?”

    He knew that all his creatures had the potential to rebel, yes.

    I think I know what your next question will be. :)

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  251. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    he knew that all his creatures had the potential to rebel, yes.

    That’s not what I asked. So God didn’t know that the angel would rebel, but was not surprised when it did so, because he figured that was a possibility, on account of the angel being created with the potential to rebel.

    And when Lucia said, “God didn’t put the snake there, it came in by itself…” she was mistaken. God did put the “snake” there.

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  252. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    “All right,” said Susan. “I’m not stupid. You’re saying humans need… fantasies to make life bearable.”

    REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

    “Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—”

    YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

    “So we can believe the big ones?”

    YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

    “They’re not the same at all!”

    YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME…SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

    “Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what’s the point—”

    MY POINT EXACTLY.”

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  253. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    Yes, Terry Pratchett is a bit of a poet when no one’s watching, isn’t he.

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  254. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    Kea,

    “Lucy claimed it was Adams fault Eve ate the forbidden fruit and listened to the serpent.”

    I think the issue of which was at fault is irrelevant myself, the issue is that humanity chose evil over good.

    I would also point out that taking the story as true does not require taking it in a historically literal way.

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  255. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    “Night poured over the desert. It came suddenly, in purple. In the clear air, the stars drilled down out of the sky, reminding any thoughtful watcher that it is in the deserts and high places that religions are generated. When men see nothing but bottomless infinity over their heads they have always had a driving and desperate urge to find someone to put in the way.”

    “The enemy isn’t men, or women, it’s bloody stupid people and no one has the right to be stupid.”
    ― Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment

    ditto

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  256. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    I would also point out that taking the story as true does not require taking it in a historically literal way.

    I agree.

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  257. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    ” So God didn’t know that the angel would rebel, but was not surprised when it did so, because he figured that was a possibility, on account of the angel being created with the potential to rebel.”

    That’s a good possibility, yes. I think your assuming that omniscience would mean that God would have had to know, in advance as it were. But that is not necessarily the case.

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  258. doggone7 (801 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine; “Lilith… Said to be Adams first wife. Refused to lay beneath him so left on her own accord.”

    And damned reliable those Honda Accords were too!

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  259. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we interpret literally….v.

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  260. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    That’s a good possibility, yes. I think your assuming that omniscience would mean that God would have had to know, in advance as it were. But that is not necessarily the case.

    Which brings us back to the element of surprise.

    In fairness, if I were to create a universe, I wouldn’t want to know how it turns out either. Spoilers.

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  261. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, no humanity did not. Women did, at least that is what the bible says. Which was my point entirely. Lucy went into some of the most convoluted logic free contortions in order to avoid that and blame MEN !!! ;)

    She then squirmed like a salted slug when I asked why Women were not allowed to be priests in many Churches.

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  262. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “The open view of the future holds that God chose to create a cosmos that is populated with free agents – at least humans and angels (though some hold that there is a degree of freedom, however small, in all sentient beings). To have free will means that one has the ability to transition several possible courses of action into one actual course of action. This is precisely why Open Theists hold that the future is partly comprised of possibilities. While God can decide to pre-settle whatever aspects of the future he wishes, to the degree that he has given agents freedom, God has chosen to leave the future open, as a domain of possibilities, for agents to resolve with their free choices.”

    Gregory Boyd.

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  263. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    “The open view of the future holds that God chose to create a cosmos that is populated with free agents – at least humans and angels (though some hold that there is a degree of freedom, however small, in all sentient beings). To have free will means that one has the ability to transition several possible courses of action into one actual course of action. This is precisely why Open Theists hold that the future is partly comprised of possibilities. While God can decide to pre-settle whatever aspects of the future he wishes, to the degree that he has given agents freedom, God has chosen to leave the future open, as a domain of possibilities, for agents to resolve with their free choices.”

    Gregory Boyd.

    “God is that which breaks The Rules.”

    Ryan Sproull.

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  264. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    Kea,

    “ShawnLH, no humanity did not. Women did, at least that is what the bible says. Which was my point entirely.”

    Well, both Adam and Eve ate the apple, so I’m inclined to disagree with both you and Lucia! :)

    My view is that Adam and Eve were not literal historical persons, but are archetypes of human nature.

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  265. Kea (12,818 comments) says:

    I am going to bed to read a Dan Brown book. At least the words mean what they say and there are a smattering of facts in it :)

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  266. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘reading’ and ‘Dan Brown book’ are somewhat oxymoronic.

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  267. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    The Bible means what it says, it’s only fundamentalists and Atheists who insist on treating it in a shallow and superficial way. :)

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  268. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    My view is that Adam and Eve were not literal historical persons, but are archetypes of human nature.

    I suspect even the notion of a “literal historical person” was not a thinkable concept by the authors of Genesis.

    I suspect if you asked them, “Yes, but did it actually happen?” they would be content with replying, “What do you mean? It’s true. Who cares if it actually happened or not?”

    But that’s just me. I’m very suspicious.

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  269. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    On Dan Brown:

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  270. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    “In fairness, if I were to create a universe, I wouldn’t want to know how it turns out either. Spoilers.”

    I agree. There is a Jewish saying that God created the world because He loves stories. Who want’s to know in advance how the story goes?

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  271. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    I agree. There is a Jewish saying that God created the world because He loves stories. Who want’s to know in advance how the story goes?

    Eschatologists.

    Er… scatologists…

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  272. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    Have you read any of Rene Girad’s books Ryan?

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  273. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    I have not, nope.

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  274. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    He is a French philosopher who links the concept of original sin to human evolution. In a nutshell, and this probably won’t do his very complex work full justice, he teaches that at some point in our evolution we made a bargain with violence as a way to get what we want in life. This was both a blessing and a curse, in that it helped create human civilization, but made violence the bedrock of human behavior and relationships.

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  275. ShawnLH (5,019 comments) says:

    Anyway, I’m off to bed myself, NOT to read Dan Brown! :)

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  276. Yvette (2,819 comments) says:

    One wonders how long the gap was between Eve eating the forbidden fruit and Adam following her example.
    Did Eve gain the knowledge of good and bad before “she gave some to her husband and he also ate”?
    What had she learnt when she passed the fruit on? :-)

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  277. goldnkiwi (1,304 comments) says:

    Like this ShawnLH? http://www.stuff.co.nz/science/10039994/Bullies-may-get-a-long-lasting-physical-benefit

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  278. SGA (1,025 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 10:31 pm

    He is a French philosopher who links the concept of original sin to human evolution. In a nutshell, and this probably won’t do his very complex work full justice, he teaches that at some point in our evolution we made a bargain with violence as a way to get what we want in life. This was both a blessing and a curse, in that it helped create human civilization, but made violence the bedrock of human behavior and relationships.

    Perhaps, but you could argue that violence is a bedrock of much of the animal kingdom in general, and often provides the grist for the mill of evolution.

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  279. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    He is a French philosopher who links the concept of original sin to human evolution. In a nutshell, and this probably won’t do his very complex work full justice, he teaches that at some point in our evolution we made a bargain with violence as a way to get what we want in life. This was both a blessing and a curse, in that it helped create human civilization, but made violence the bedrock of human behavior and relationships.

    Interesting. I’m a fan of the interpretation (can’t remember whose) that original sin came about the moment we achieved a sense of selfness and difference from our environment, and that paradise is regained through re-attaining that intuitive understanding of identity with everything.

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  280. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Interesting. I’m a fan of the interpretation (can’t remember whose) that original sin came about the moment we achieved a sense of selfness and difference from our environment, and that paradise is regained through re-attaining that intuitive understanding of identity with everything.

    At least some of the existentialists argued that intentional consciousness makes that impossible.

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  281. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    I see Penny did the good work of digging up the pecuniary interest records, and lo and behold the other National ministers appear to have declared all and sundry when on ministerial visits, as Ms Collins did previously.

    Why not this one?

    Winston may not have a smoking gun, but he certainly has a used condom.

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  282. Left Right and Centre (2,975 comments) says:

    ciaron – you’re damned right – I’m not convinced by fiction.

    I’m not convinced anyone called Jesus existed. I’m not convinced about anything that requires blind faith based on someone else simply telling you that it is so and you then swallowing it whole without question.

    Can we all agree that Harry Potter is fiction ? One out of two is a good start.

    I wonder what nasska would say about the possible existence of someone called Jesus ? That’s who I turn to. WWND ??

    Very very unscientific is idiots trying to prove what is to them a foregone conclusion. That’s mental. Fucking moron dipshits. Our shit exists no ifs ands or buts and now here’s the evidence to back it up. Good one dickheads.

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  283. Left Right and Centre (2,975 comments) says:

    Today’s gripping installment of life of a dieter . . .

    At the shops I left behind a gorgeous little nine pack of raspberry buns – $2.50 – total bargain. I managed not to buy potatoes for homemade potato chips (it smokes the fuckin house out – I have to open windows at night time – pain in the arse). Diet soft drink is a safe nicety. Cycled to shop for exercise too – I could’ve flagged it. No wind – a miracle in these parts – you’ve got to use a calm evening.

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  284. ciaron (1,433 comments) says:

    Well, see the problem there LRC, is that if we apply the same criteria that is applied to other ancient documents to the new testament, you’ll find that it is vastly more reliable than most other ancient documents. In fact, most Historians agree that Jesus existed, From Wiki:

    Most modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[5][7][8] but scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the Biblical accounts,[12] and the only two events subject to “almost universal assent” are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[9][10][11] There is a significant debate about his nature, his actions and his sayings, but most scholars agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born between 7-4 BC and died 30–36 AD,[13][14][15] that he lived in Galilee and Judea and did not preach or study elsewhere,[16][17][18] and that he spoke Aramaic and perhaps also Hebrew and Greek.

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  285. Lucia Maria (2,427 comments) says:

    For those that are still interested, a good post by a Catholic priest: Why is Original Sin called the Sin of Adam, not the sin of Adam and Eve. At the beginning of his post he gives scriptural proof that Adam is considered primarily responsible for original sin, and then a discussion of why this might be so.

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  286. Left Right and Centre (2,975 comments) says:

    ciaron – there is no problem. It’s fiction. Rising from the dead is fiction. Virgin birth is fiction. Healing disease with miracle touch is fiction. If it happened – it’s hard to prove. There is no proof. It’s unlikely to say the least.

    Most people in the world are religious. Does that mean that someone should join the herd simply because they are more numerous ? I don’t fucking think so.

    Charles Darwin didn’t either. There was a person very much in the minority – and yet changed the world.

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