General Debate 3 May 2014

May 3rd, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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259 Responses to “General Debate 3 May 2014”

  1. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    See Bradford’s Bill in action in Wanganui. A grandfather has been convicted and given a sentence for kicking a little toerag up the arse because of his behaviour at school. He was put with his grandfather because mother could not control him, yet when he is given a bit of a tap his grandfather now becomes a criminal. This effen stinks!

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  2. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Stinking Newstalkzb trying to cover up for Ross Robertson’s abuse of position regarding the employment of his daughter. If anyone from National make mention of transgressions by Labour/Greens, the Little brigade of media hacks are out in force trying to discredit the source . . . they are getting worse.

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  3. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ igm (924 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 8:02 am

    A bit of a tap? Really? Are you suggesting our police force, who are charged with determining whether these incidents breach the legislation or not, are stupid?

    If it was just a tap, it would not have ended up in Court. Many many parents still smack their children, and they are not in Court – the police only prosecute when excessive force is applied. There is absolutely no reason to kick a child – under any circumstances – if an adult cannot apply a controlled ‘smack’ with an open hand and chooses to hit out in temper, applying excessive force – then I am not the least bit surprised the child has behaviour problems – clearly the examples he is being given hardly teach him to apply restraint to his actions.

    some actual stats for you. Only 8 parents prosecuted under the act.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/opinion/9607761/Anti-smacking-law-hitting-its-targets

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  4. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    It’s good to see Kelvin Davis prepared to make confronting violence one of his missions, not just when he returns to Parliament but as soon as he returned to the public and political spotlight. He posted this on his Facebook page:

    I attended a hui today at Far North REAP, Kaitaia run by Russell Smith and Joy Te Wiata from Korowai Tumanako.

    The purpose of the hui was to start to develop a sexual prevention initiative for the Far North.

    Mike King was in attendance along with about 10 other invited guests. Marae Investigates attended and the story will air on TV1 this Sunday 10am. I will be a studio guest.

    I made notes as I went, and the following are the notes practically verbatim.

    – 1 in 6 women will experience sexual violence.
    – For Maori women that rate will double.
    – Sexual violence is the number one contributing factor of youth suicide. (We look everywhere for the answers but can’t see or want to talk about this elephant in the room).
    – If we want to castrate, hang draw and quarter all offenders, what do we do with the 8 year old boy who is an offender? At what age do we start the death penalty?
    – We all want sexual abuse to end, but we don’t want to name it, it gets mixed in with domestic violence and other forms of violence. We need to call it what it is.
    – A story was told of a girl who went to a sleepover, and when “the lights went out” they started talking about sexual abuse. Of the 6 girls who were at the sleepover, 5 had been sexually abused. None had gone through the justice system, i.e. the abuse had not been addressed.
    – 90% of those who have been abused, DO NOT themselves abuse, but of those who do abuse, 90% had been abused themselves.
    – 95% of men who abuse male children, are hetrosexual. Homosexual men as overwhelmingly less likely to be sexual offenders.
    – Sexual abusers are not your down and out stereotypical monsters, they come from all walks of life and all professions and ethnicities.
    – Sex offenders can generally be rehabilitated – most but not all.
    – To be a “sex offender” there has to be an element of power or exploitation in the offending.
    – We should intervene at “every moment”, with young children they need to be aware their (exploratory) behaviour is inappropriate, and move the behaviour on.
    – Many people in a family may know of another person’s offending, but not know that other people also know, so they feel isolated.
    – 95% of people who are abused know the offender. Stranger danger is not the beast it is made out to be. (but still be aware it does occur, without being paranoid).
    – The characteristics of a “safe person” (e.g. honest, has values, transparent, can be trusted, caring, people person, known all your life, kind, loving, calm, not angry, etc) are the same characteristics of a perpetrator. That helps them to offend.
    – People who are known offenders are less of a risk than unknown offenders. It’s the people we don’t know about who are the high risk.
    – If we want to know the answers, we need to talk to the people who cause the damage.

    It was a bloody interesting hui with candid korero. To get an idea of what the hui was about, watch Marae on TV 1 this coming Sunday 10am.

    Korowai Tumanako – “Inspiring Courage, Igniting Hope” – Sexual Violence Prevention 027 422 6282

    We shouldn’t just applaud Kelvin for keeping the momentum going, we should help him build it.

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  5. Keeping Stock (9,373 comments) says:

    @ Pete George – amen to that. Here’s a chance for Kelvin Davis to present himself as a real leader for young Maori, especially in the North, as opposed to the headline-seeking, money-grabbing hypocrite who currently represents Te Tai Tokerau.

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  6. iMP (2,455 comments) says:

    The Antarctica Murry McCully near crash details are fascinating…

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/10004119/Antarctic-passengers-dodged-a-bullet

    “and with a 22 year old assistant.” Another potential crash right there? Those ‘Press Secs’ get younger and younger.

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  7. duggledog (1,620 comments) says:

    PG

    What we should do is tow the western side of Northland from Dargaville to the Cape into the Pacific Ocean and anchor it up against Fiji or Tonga. Nobody would notice the difference

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  8. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    A man who told his grandson he “needed a good kick in the backside” ignored the boy’s warnings about calling the police and did it anyway, earning himself community work in Whanganui District Court.

    He “interrogated” his grandson and, upon getting no answers, turned the boy around and “kicked him twice in the backside”, said Mr Morrison.

    Mr Ross said the grandson had continually misbehaved at school.

    When the man threatened to kick him, the boy said: “Well if you do, I will call the police”. “That didn’t put him off,” said Mr Ross.

    Mr Ross said the boy was still causing problems.

    Kicking a 13 year old in the backside would presumably involve restraint as well as the kicking.

    It’s not surprising the boy is still causing problems. He’s at risk of becoming the sort of person who would be violent. If he ends up in court for kicking someone on the ground will it be claimed he didn’t experience enough violence when he was younger?

    Kicking kids might seem like a good idea to some but it’s perpetuating a very poor way of trying to resolve things, with little chance of success and a high chance of failure.

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  9. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    PG, hate to say this but better an arse kicking from his grandfather than being sodomised as a young offender in jail.

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  10. Keeping Stock (9,373 comments) says:

    If Labour was hoping to find a smoking gun to brandish at Judith Collins yesterday. Grant Robertson first raised this issue two months ago, and there were signs when Parliament recessed prior to Easter that the public was tired of unsubstantiated claims.

    Is it now time for Robertson to do a tactical withdrawl, and leave the mud-slinging to Winston Peters? After all, unsubstantiated allegations, rumours, innuendo and threats to release non-existent documents are Peters’ specialties, and he has flung more mud than most.

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/wheres-smoking-gun.html

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  11. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    The media is doing its level best to level the playing field. With all the tewwible news day after day night after night for the party with a heart they’re playing the propaganda card on any little tiny thing they can find. They won’t let Orivida go and now they won’t be letting Williamson go, either.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11248681

    For example the headline for this is: Fallen MP key in Liu house deal

    The body says the house was next door to Williamson’s holiday home, it had been on the market for 18 months, and one day Williamson asked the owner if was still on because he might know someone who was interested.

    The second to last para says

    She [the owner] had limited interactions with Mr Williamson over the years but said she never saw Liu at the house.

    “Certainly anything he [Maurice] said to me didn’t give me any opinion that he [Liu] was a friend.”

    Williamson’s interview yesterday on RadioNZ Nine to Noon is worth listening to.

    Neither of these cases show what the media are insisting they show. But the media is determined to put chinks in National so their beloved comrades can slip through and we can be ruled by galloping mentals for the next three years. It’s going to be a great test of National’s message management to see how these memes play out.

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  12. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine – except that the odds are a culture of arse kicking is likely to lead to a culture of prison violence.

    Break the cycle.

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  13. peterwn (3,333 comments) says:

    Reid – Perhaps MSM should be noting that Labour had its sticky fingers in Police affairs during its 9 years in office including leaking and Helen’s comments implying racism concerning the Waitara shooting (wrongly assuming it was a Pakeha cop v a Maori offender).

    But then of course Labour and Green politicians think that once in power they can ‘hands on’ control everything.

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  14. Megatron (190 comments) says:

    Wardville family loses everything in fire
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10004321/Wardville-family-loses-everything-in-fire

    Another sad story about a family that loses its house to fire and has no contents insurance.
    They had been in the rented house two weeks and had not yet arranged insurance.
    This is the second similar story in the news in the last week, the first had the community rallying around to provide everything to replace what this old couple had lost, again no contents insurance.
    Having just sat down recently and reviewed our insurances which we do on an annual basis it amazes me that these people are stupid enough to think the worst won’t happen to them. Saying they can’t afford it doesn’t wash with me. It’s all a matter of priorities. You can’t afford not to. I wouldn’t rely on the good of the general public to make up the shortfall of my stupidity.

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  15. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    And lo, Audrey Young’s column from lefty central:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11248565

    Audrey Young: Clouds darken over National as Labour shines

    At least they stuck to their guns and pursued the charges of domestic violence against Donghua Liu in the face of inferred pressure from Williamson’s phone call.

    If you listen to that RNZ interview you’ll hear Williamson explain the very first thing he said was that this call was not to be taken as any attempt to influence anything in any way, it was merely an enquiry. But this doesn’t stop the screeching harridan from doing her level best to imply such.

    Edit: peter I agree but we’re not likely to hear about those, it spoils the propaganda. As a matter of fact that’s the best weapon National has in this, to use the “p” word in every single interview it gives about either of these memes, over and over and over again.

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  16. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Disagree Pete. I bet this kid wasn’t disciplined by his mother which is why he’s in his grandfathers care. Given he threatened his grandfather with the police and carried it thru, makes me think more so.

    I don’t think a kick up the arse to a 13 yr old snot as violence. A 3 year old? Yeah.

    Breaking the cycle should not only refer to family violence, it should also refer to families not being held responsible for their kids. This grandfather was stepping up to that responsibility. For his aroha, he’s been prosecuted. That’s an injustice in my eyes.

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  17. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Northland Wahine (558 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 8:36 am

    A grandfather setting the example that breaking the law is okay even when you know it is an illegal act, is hardly going to prevent the young person from breaking the law in the future. Children live what they learn.

    The grandfather didn’t like the fact that the child wouldn’t answer him, so when that child is an adult, and someone doesn’t answer him, will that give him the right to kick that person?

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  18. twofish (107 comments) says:

    Whaleoil – A READER EMAILS ABOUT LABOUR’S ‘BIG TOOL’

    Parker argues that our high interest rates are causing a high NZ dollar and that this is hurting our exporters. I say rubbish. The high New Zealand dollar is the result of foolish monetary policy on the part of the United States and others like Japan. By pushing their interest rates below 1% whilst inflation sits at 1.50%, the savings of Americans are been destroyed by inflation at a rate of about 1% a year. Individuals and businesses that can afford to have shifted their money around the word to countries that offer higher interest rates, and that is one of the major reasons the New Zealand dollar has risen. It is not the result of New Zealand actions but the actions of other governments.

    Another implication of this policy that I have not seen discussed is the effect that the exclusion of employees and self-employed people will have. Will we see large numbers of wage earners now becoming contractors to avoid having to contribute to kiwisaver, particularly if the compulsory contribution is pushed above 10%?
    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/05/reader-emails-labours-big-tool/

    … and there is more – consideration that seem well worth thinking about.
    Sorry to direct anyone to another blog – please return when you are done :-)

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  19. itstricky (2,021 comments) says:

    If you listen to that RNZ interview you’ll hear Williamson explain the very first thing he said was that this call was not to be taken as any attempt to influence anything in any way, it was merely an enquiry. But this doesn’t stop the screeching harridan from doing her level best to imply such.

    The transcript is there. (indirect quote) “he is a very wealthy important person” (end quote). What about that is *not* trying to influence? The mear mention of the fact that the guy is “wealthy” and “important” automatically implies something from the get-go, without having to say anything else. It implies that someone “wealthy” and “important” should follow a different path through justice. Stupid Williamson, don’t try and stick up for him.

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  20. jcuk (756 comments) says:

    One thinks as one experienced ….I was brought up in a climate of ‘arse kicking’ and brought up my son likewise … both of us have turned out to be caring responsible people in our different ways. I experienced and valued the good examples of it and on reflection depreciate the stupid and pointless uses. And remember with amusement one pointless case.

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  21. dime (10,212 comments) says:

    The 13 year old sounds like an entitled little shit head. Bloody hard to deal with if you’re an old school grand dad.

    Dime doesn’t believe in hitting kids, but goddam I hate that law. How much pain does a kick in the ass actually cause? Fuck all I’d say. (Waits for some lefty to tell me how if the guy had steel caps blah blah)

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  22. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Judith, it’s an arse of a law. Beating a child, an adult is illegal. This wasn’t a beating. It was a kicked butt. And chances are you are right that it may not stop someone from reoffending. But I bet for every prisoner that was kicked up the arse as a kid, another 3 would be offenders aren’t in jail because someone took the time to discipline them.

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  23. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ dime (8,843 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 8:56 am

    The police don’t prosecute unless there is reason under this law. Despite their being 600 odd complaints, they have only ever prosecuted 8 of them. I think that tells us that the vast majority are considered acceptable. The media does not report the severity of the kick – and lets face it, if it was more than a tap, then it could have caused damage.

    The other fact remains, we have a problem with child abuse in this country – at some stage we (as adults) have to give the example that violence is not acceptable and there are other ways of getting the message through. Clearly most adults know how to discipline their children, but there are some that don’t – and like most things, when it comes to protecting the vulnerable, we have to make it clear to those idiots that don’t know the difference.

    PS no doubt this child is a prize little brat – but how did he get that way? Little shits are made, not born that way! His mother couldn’t control him – his mother was raised by her father, the grandfather – see the link?

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  24. Longknives (4,953 comments) says:

    I reckon the naughty kid should be forced to listen to an hour or two of Pete George singing ‘Kum Buyah’ at him- That’ll set the little fucker straight…

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  25. jcuk (756 comments) says:

    I and my wife travelled from Niagara to New York by AMTRAK and sitting in front of us was an Afro-American young woman and her small male child. The child was emitting piecing shreeks every few seconds, hate to think what damage it was doing to his vocal cords, and the mother just sat there not even telling him to be quiet ….I was told later it is AA culture where the ‘man-child’ is never disciplined.

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  26. OneTrack (3,350 comments) says:

    Pete – so where is the kid now? Has he been moved on to the next member of the extended family willing to look after him? Or have CYFS taken over because he was in an unsafe environment?

    Maybe someone should have given him a smack around the bottom when he was younger. But that’s illegal, isn’t it.

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  27. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Northland Wahine (560 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 8:59 am

    The only thing wrong with that law is that what is excessive force needs to be defined. A smack with an open hand on the butt, is not likely to cause injury, but I’m sorry, a kick can. We do not know how hard that kick was – the grandfather says it was a tap, but the police do not prosecute these cases unless there was excessive force – so I’m sorry, I don’t agree with you.

    None of my five children have criminal convictions – only the eldest, a boy was ever smacked as a child, and I worked out by time the second one came along that non-violent discipline was far more successful in making my children behave. They are all in work, two married with their own homes, and the other three are either overseas or completing tertiary education. They are all clowns with clowns for friends, enjoy a drink and have a terribly wicked sense of humour – all of them are respectful towards their elders, even as adults.

    Using violence against a child is not necessary, and especially when done in temper – all it teaches a child is that violence is a means of addressing issues – sadly our level of violence in the community proves that it doesn’t work.

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  28. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Depends on what you mean by ‘discipline’ Northland Wahine. Hitting and kicking kids often teaches kids that hitting and kicking is a normal response to something or someone you don’t like or disagree with.

    There’s far better and safer ways of disciplining, the younger you start the better. Problems at 13 suggest family discipline methods haven’t been very successful. If the grandfather thought kicking up the arse was a reasonable response then it’s very likely the kids mother was familiar with physical punishment. Hence the problems they have now, quite likely.

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  29. hannity (152 comments) says:

    ‘If you listen to that RNZ interview you’ll hear Williamson explain the very first thing he said was that this call was not to be taken as any attempt to influence anything in any way, it was merely an enquiry.’

    Just the one call ?

    Or was it both calls – that Williamson says – shouldn’t be taken as an attempt to influence ‘anything in anyway’ in the case against a wealthy wife beating National Party donor.

    His venality has probably cost him his budding real estate career too.

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  30. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ OneTrack (2,019 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 9:08 am

    No, a smack around the bottom is not illegal. That is how people, especially the media have decided to promote the act. Smacking is not illegal – the use of excessive force is.

    This is the act – where does it state that smacking is illegal?

    59 Parental control
    (1) Every parent of a child and every person in the place of a parent of the child is justified in using force if the force used is reasonable in the circumstances and is for the purpose of—

    (a) preventing or minimising harm to the child or another person; or
    (b) preventing the child from engaging or continuing to engage in conduct that amounts to a criminal offence; or
    (c) preventing the child from engaging or continuing to engage in offensive or disruptive behaviour; or
    (d) performing the normal daily tasks that are incidental to good care and parenting.
    (2) Nothing in subsection (1) or in any rule of common law justifies the use of force for the purpose of correction.
    (3) Subsection (2) prevails over subsection (1).
    (4) To avoid doubt, it is affirmed that the Police have the discretion not to prosecute complaints against a parent of a child or person in the place of a parent of a child in relation to an offence involving the use of force against a child, where the offence is considered to be so inconsequential that there is no public interest in proceeding with a prosecution.

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  31. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Longknives – not a bad idea, my kids and grandkids have grown up in non-violent environments and are generally very well behaved.

    One of my nephews had a father who used violence for discipline and that’s likely to have contributed to a troubled life, while it lasted.

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  32. wreck1080 (3,999 comments) says:

    @igm:: i lost respect for newstalk zb when they went all out to get Tony Veitch back into the fold.

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  33. calendar girl (1,258 comments) says:

    “His mother couldn’t control him – his mother was raised by her father, the grandfather – see the link?”

    No chance of the prosecuted grandfather being on the paternal side?

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  34. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ calendar girl (1,113 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 9:24 am

    Sorry, hadn’t thought of that – yes you could be right. The reports don’t give the relationship to the mother. I wonder where the father was in all of this?

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  35. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    R.I.P Dr Jim Sprott – can think of at least one man whose life was made better by Dr Sprott’s great work.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11248616

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  36. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    I loved this comment on Jay Carney’s performance the other day when he was trying to explain the newly released Benghazi emails:

    On Wednesday, Jay Carney explained — as if he was talking to a room full of children — that the Benghazi e-mail the White House refused to release until the White House was forced to release its Benghazi e-mails wasn’t in fact about Benghazi, even though the e-mail talks about Benghazi. This is Monty Pythonesque of “Dead Parrot” proportions. That’s not a Benghazi e-mail, it’s just an e-mail about Benghazi, in a folder marked “Benghazi” e-mails, idiot.

    Heh, heh, heh. But the follow-up was even better:

    Jay Carney is a very strange creature for Washington. He’s an extremely confident liar — we’ve got a lot of those! — but he’s not very convincing. Usually, confidence = convincing. As George Costanza (and in his own way Bill Clinton) liked to say, it’s not a lie if you believe it when you tell it.

    But with Carney, he lies in a way that makes it seem not so much like he believes it but that you’re an idiot for not believing it. There’s a kind of the-joke’s-on-you feel to the way he talks that reminds me of that Onion article, “Why Do These Homosexuals Keep Fellating Me?”

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  37. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Judith, as a young mum I too physically disciplined my now grown sons as did my siblings. My discipline was consistent. And so were my hugs and cuddles. My youngest child by a considerable amount, in the words of his brothers “has it easy”. And they are right. I have learned different techniques that I use on him and my moko.

    Both my grown boys are fine young men. Respectful, caring and mischievous with the best of them. The only dealings they have had with the police are traffic fines. Most of nieces and nephews fit into the same category. The ones who have served time were also physically disciplined but they never understood what boundaries were. There lies the problem as far as I’m concerned.

    Parents too often often do not set boundaries and are afraid to follow thru or are too lazy too. If you say to a kid, “if you do so and so, I’ll insert your punishment here”… Then for goodness sake do it. Don’t repeat yourself 10 times and complain your kids don’t listen. They listen alright. They also know their parent isn’t gonna move until after that 10th threat.

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  38. bringbackdemocracy (429 comments) says:

    Judith- Section 2 of the Crimes act defines assault and “smacking” or threatening to smack fall within that definition. Section 59 provided an exemption when force was used for parental correction and the force used was reasonable.
    That is no longer the case according to clauses 2 and 3 of the new section 59.
    This law change was wrong on two counts;
    1) what the new law does do—turns good parents into criminals
    2)what the new law doesn’t do—-protect vulnerable children

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  39. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    One of my nephews had a father who used violence for discipline and that’s likely to have contributed to a troubled life, while it lasted.

    Whereas all of my nephews, nieces, brothers, sisters, cousins, parents and grandparents all had parents who used physical discipline in a loving way when we were too young to understand a reasoned approach to our behaviour and yet not one of us, not a single one, has turned out to be troubled. Isn’t that peculiar. Go figure.

    Seriously Pete, on this topic you’re a bit like stephieboy. You see what only what you want to see and you’ve already made your mind up about the issue so you cannot see any counter-evidence, because you subconsciously refuse to entertain any.

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.”

    ― Leo Tolstoy

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  40. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Reid, Kelvin Davis noted:

    – 90% of those who have been abused, DO NOT themselves abuse, but of those who do abuse, 90% had been abused themselves.

    Go figure.

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  41. Dave Mann (1,240 comments) says:

    I think the whole effectiveness of physically disciplining children depends on HOW it is done just as much as WHAT is done.

    If a kid just gets a random kicking with anger and (maybe) a lot of verbal abuse when it misbehaves, without any intelligent attempt to explain anything, then its hardly likely to grow up well-adjusted is it?

    Its all about context and method. Sometimes physically disciplining a child is the best way, provided it is administered in a way that teaches the child about behaviour and consequences. Just lashing out at a child in (for example) anger is NOT a civilized or helpful method of parenting, and will probably just trigger violence and anger in the child in later life (or bullying behaviour etc at school).

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  42. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Northland Wahine (561 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 9:30 am

    As many of you know, I have worked with offenders, some of our countries most violent for many years (no longer though).

    In all that time I never dealt with an offender that was bought up with respect and disciplined in the kind of loving environment that you described. I never felt the need to use violence, but I accept that a smack on the butt is not going to cause undue harm. But the large majority of offenders were bought up in violent homes where beatings were a regular part of their childhoods. Not just their stories but reported by other family members as part of sentencing inquiry.

    The issue is how and when that discipline is administered, and sadly, for a large section of our society it is not given in way that is positive. When it is used, especially when drugs and alcohol are in the mix, the results are disastrous. Our child abuse stats prove this.

    Our laws have to protect the vulnerable – and that is why we need the ability to prosecute parents that use violence in the wrong way – I agree the act needs definition – but as it stands it leaves the decision up to the police, and the fact that they have only prosecuted 8 parents proves it is not being used or abused to prosecute parents who have used a smack in a responsible manner as a means of discipline.

    The evidence does not support the thesis that good parents are being prosecuted. This grandfather kicked his grandson – the fact the court agreed means you can bet it wasn’t a tap on the butt as the grandfather would like us to think. Children have died in NZ with perforated bowels from being kicked in the butt – not many but obviously not all parents know when something is too hard.

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  43. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    Pete, Kelvin was talking about sexual abuse, which is not the same as physically disciplining a child too young to reason, in a loving way.

    Try not to conflate the two, it just makes you look disingenuous.

    Its all about context and method.

    Edit: Precisely Dave but the debate is framed in such a way as to avoid consideration of that possibility which is in fact the actual reality but we’re not supposed to realise that. Bradford for example always but always refers to “assault” to describe. Languaging is a classic propaganda technique.

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  44. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Parents too often often do not set boundaries and are afraid to follow thru or are too lazy too. If you say to a kid, “if you do so and so, I’ll insert your punishment here”… Then for goodness sake do it. Don’t repeat yourself 10 times and complain your kids don’t listen. They listen alright. They also know their parent isn’t gonna move until after that 10th threat.

    I agree with this. And if you do this most of the time (sometimes it’s pragmatic to do otherwise) then you can avoid the need to get to a stage of considering physical discipline.

    Under-reacting on discipline raises the chances (for some people) of over-reacting when they do something.

    (By physical discipline I mean anything that potentially hurts the child and excludes taps on hands and bums that are not intended to hurt.

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  45. bc (1,395 comments) says:

    As predictable as the sun rising every day – straight off the mark as close to 8am as possible to generate maximum upticks, there’s igm with his daily rant about newstalk zb.

    Heard of an off switch? Or maybe seek out another station? Nah, I’ll have a moan instead every day instead.

    How sad.

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  46. OneTrack (3,350 comments) says:

    Judith – “(2) Nothing in subsection (1) or in any rule of common law justifies the use of force for the purpose of correction.”

    This says smacking is illegal and can be prosecuted. But, if once the police have called you down to the station to interview the offender, and thought about it for a week of two, and if they are in a good mood, they probably wont prosecute. Or if there is political discussion about it (such as this report) they might send it to court “to have the judge decide”.

    Smacking is illegal alright.

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  47. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Reid – I think you’ll find that similar applies to non-sexual violence. Most kids who are physically punished don’t grow up to be violent parents, but most violent parents learned it as a kid.

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  48. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Yes ,RIP Jim Sprott ,a very fine mind who worked tirelessly for the truth about the Crewe murders in association with Pat Booth.
    Both did, I understand , got some recompense for their efforts but neither sought or expected it.

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  49. twofish (107 comments) says:

    (2) Nothing in subsection (1) or in any rule of common law justifies the use of force for the purpose of correction.
(3) Subsection (2) prevails over subsection (1).

    Therefore you may use force in prevention but never correction
    You may strike a child to prevent an accident but the same action becomes illegal if it is for correction.

    Most children in danger are grabbed back, restrained by hand grip or pushed out of the way of a hazard.
    It is hard to envisage a legal “smack” unless it is to knock a dangerous object out of a child’s hand.

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  50. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    The Nation. Can someone put a gag on Lisa Owen so that Maurice can talk?
    STFU woman

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  51. thePeoplesFlag (281 comments) says:

    Nothing like the smell of a child’s fear to arouse the Kiwiblog sewer on a Saturday morning.

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  52. Reid (16,683 comments) says:

    Reid – I think you’ll find that similar applies to non-sexual violence. Most kids who are physically punished don’t grow up to be violent parents, but most violent parents learned it as a kid.

    Pete, watch your languaging please.

    If you want to discuss physical discipline of a child administered by a parent in a calm and loving way then let’s discuss that.

    If you want to discuss physical abuse of a child involving beating the hell out of them for no particular reason and doing it so often it becomes a way of life for the poor kid, which is the instance you’re referring to, then please be careful to distinguish that from the former.

    Deliberately attempting to conflate the two palpably separate issues only makes you look like a screeching lefty propagandist harridan, and we don’t want that, do we.

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  53. minus (229 comments) says:

    Is half the truth actually a lie?
    Like Cunliffe yesterday evening ONE NEWS at 6, commenting on released emails and papers, said “This was Judith Collins requesting a meeting with an official, MFAT prepared to do a briefing, that’s as official as it can get.”
    Other commentary then reveals the briefing was later declined.
    So by Cunliffe’s definition… No briefing – the dinner was not official.

    I actually don’t mind if TVNZ does this: screen Cunliffe telling half the truth, as long as their commentary tells the rest of it.

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  54. OneTrack (3,350 comments) says:

    Judith – “and the fact that they have only prosecuted 8 parents proves it is not being used or abused to prosecute parents who have used a smack in a responsible manner as a means of discipline.”

    How do you know that any of those 8 weren’t using a smack in a responsible manner? It was only 8 anyway. Just too bad if you were one of those 8.

    The other problem is the parents who now aren’t smacking their kids when they should. What would have happened if you never smacked your kids when they were growing up – if you didnt because it was illegal. Maybe they wouldn’t have turned out as good as they did. Modern parents are going to have to find that out, possibly the hard way.

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  55. muggins (3,828 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10004556/Rebels-down-choppers-three-die-in-Odessa

    Uh oh.

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  56. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Dave Mann – I agree to an extent, but a key phrase you use is “provided it is administered in a way that teaches the child about behaviour and consequences”.

    Physical discipline that teaches a child the wrong things about behaviour and consequences isn’t just the lashing out kind. Some of the worst cases of child abuse involve deliberate, controlled and awful violence.

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  57. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    And adults who did not have a violent upbringing, can go on to commit violent acts.

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  58. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    If you want to discuss physical discipline of a child administered by a parent in a calm and loving way then let’s discuss that. If you want to discuss physical abuse of a child involving beating the hell out of them for no particular reason and doing it so often it becomes a way of life for the poor kid, which is the instance you’re referring to, then please be careful to distinguish that from the former.

    Yep, I’d like to discuss that.

    Most parents I have talked to who have hit their kids have done it out of frustration and anger as a last resort (not a good situation to do it) or as an immediate reaction.

    Why would a calm and loving parent want to ‘administer physical discipline’ to their child? If you have the chance to be calm and loving then there are better alternatives.

    Deliberately and calmly hurting your child “for their own good” seems bizarre to me.

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  59. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,703 comments) says:

    “The purpose of the hui was to start to develop a sexual prevention initiative for the Far North.”

    A most difficult task indeed, up North, unless castration at birth is introduced.

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  60. Dave Mann (1,240 comments) says:

    @Pete: “Some of the worst cases of child abuse involve deliberate, controlled and awful violence”

    Yes maybe, but I think you are splitting hairs. You get the thrust of what I wrote, I’m sure, mate :-)

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  61. minus (229 comments) says:

    Why would a calm and loving parent want to ‘administer physical discipline’ to their child? If you have the chance to be calm and loving then there are better alternatives.

    Conflict of views is likely due to the child’s wrong thinking, or the adult’s, or a combination of both.
    If you have the chance to be calm, why not ask enough questions of the situation to determine what any mistaken thinking may be, rather than see who is physically stronger – which is totally irrelevant to some mental mistake, child’s or adult’s.

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  62. Dave Mann (1,240 comments) says:

    Hey, on a lighter note with this physical discipline thing, does anybody remember that brilliantly funny TV skit by John Cleese where the headmaster explained to a parent that his son had been killed for (I think) not returning his library books on time? That was just hilarious! :-D (it must be on YouTube I guess.)

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  63. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Judith@9.26am.

    Not disputing that the offenders you have dealt with have been beaten. And terribly so. That doesn’t mean that appropriate physical discipline does not have a place. The article was in regard to a 13 yr old snot getting his butt kicked.

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  64. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    And the 13 year old ‘snot’ is “still causing problems.” Would three kicks up the backside sort him out?

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  65. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    No, the new Benghazi emails don’t demonstrate a White House cover up,

    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/04/no-new-benghazi-emails-dont-demonstrate-white-house-cover

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  66. Dave Mann (1,240 comments) says:

    Oops… it was Rowan Atkinson. :-)

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  67. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Muggins, what the two downed helicopters show is that the Putiin regime has placed it’s own armed personal amongst the protestors.
    Street protestors don’t normally carry around shoulder rocket launchers.
    Hmmmm…!

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  68. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Maybe because he knows he can have anyone arrested who tries to wipe his snotty nose or kick his shitty arse.

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  69. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    “Like Cunliffe yesterday evening ONE NEWS at 6, commenting on released emails and papers, said “This was Judith Collins requesting a meeting with an official, MFAT prepared to do a briefing, that’s as official as it can get.””

    So by Cunliffe’s definition… No briefing – the dinner was not official.

    Cunliffe’s argument was based on Judith Collins requesting a MFAT briefing, i.e such a request is inconsistent with an event which is unrelated to state business.

    The dinner may not have been an “official” event, but it appears that what was discussed was of interest to the NZ parliament.

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  70. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Muggins, what the two downed helicopters show is that the Putiin regime has placed it’s own armed personal amongst the protestors.

    No, you’re just making shit up, stevieboy. Are you are liar as well as a retard?

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  71. muggins (3,828 comments) says:

    stephie,
    The reason I posted that link is because I thought it was more important than discussing whether children should be slapped or not.
    I am not taking sides. But the way I see it there will be a civil war in Eastern Ukraine in the not too distant future unless a vote is taken as to whether those in the east of the country wish to separate from those in the west. Baracko Barmer’s sanctions are not going to work, in my opinion.

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  72. muggins (3,828 comments) says:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/02/is-it-time-for-ukraine-to-split-up/283967/

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  73. Fletch (6,523 comments) says:

    stephie, you’re quoting leftie rag Mother Jones now? Of course that is what they’ll say.
    For your info, even liberal publications like the NY Times are picking up on the Benghazi emails now; they didn’t originally because they thought it was a “Fox story”, but now even they can see it is newsworthy.

    The story on Page 8 of yesterday’s New York Times amounts to an admission of journalistic error.

    It’s a conventional news report: “A newly released email shows that White House officials sought to shape the way Susan E. Rice, then the ambassador to the United Nations, discussed the Middle East chaos that was the context for the attack on the American diplomatic mission in Benghazi, Libya, in 2012.”

    But the Times waited until Thursday to publish a story that Fox News and others were blaring on Tuesday, because it was somehow deemed to be non-news.

    That position became untenable on Wednesday, when ABC’s Jonathan Karl and others were pressing White House spokesman Jay Carney on the spinning that took place in the wake of the Benghazi attack. By yesterday, CNN’s Jim Acosta and CBS’s Major Garrett were taking on Carney as well.

    What’s beyond dispute is that the latest Benghazi documents are news—as even the New York Times has belatedly acknowledged.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/02/benghazi-emails-despite-spin-not-just-fox-story-any-more/
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/01/world/email-suggests-white-house-strategy-on-benghazi.html?ref=world

    The Daily Beast (hardly conservative) is reporting on testimony by a general saying they didn’t even try to save those under attack.

    General: We Didn’t Even Try To Save American Lives In Benghazi

    A high-ranking officer in the U.S. Africa Command on the night of the Benghazi attacks is now saying that the U.S. military did not try and was never even ordered to save the Americans under attack at the U.S. diplomatic outpost on the September 11, 2012 attack.

    In explosive testimony before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, retired Air Force Brigadier General Robert Lovell said bluntly about the military’s response on the night of the Benghazi attack: “The discussion is not in the ‘could or could not’ in relation to time, space and capability, the point is we should have tried.”

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/01/general-we-didn-t-even-try-to-save-american-lives-in-benghazi.html

    So, the House has decided to form a new Select Committee to investigate Benghazi.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27264457
    http://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1194

    Meanwhile, there was yet ANOTHER attack in Benghazi yesterday, on a Libyan security compound, by an Islamist group, that has left nine dead, and over a dozen wounded.

    On Friday, May 2, 2014, a radical Islamist group stormed Libya’s security headquarters in Benghazi, leaving up to nine dead and over a dozen wounded.

    Libyan army officials said among the dead were some of Libya’s police officers and military units. A firefight broke out in the early morning hours, and Libyan special forces were sent in to combat the Islamist entity and its advances.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/02/us-libya-violence-idUSBREA4103520140502

    Obama and Hillary were going to “get to the bottom of” the first attack and bring to justice those responsible, but nothing has ever come of it. I doubt they even went looking.

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  74. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    No, the new Benghazi emails don’t demonstrate a White House cover up

    The coverup was evident before the email surfaced. The US knew that there was a problem in Benghazi before the attacks happened, but this fact didn’t gel with Obama’s statement that “al Qaeda is on the path to defeat”.

    http://directorblue.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/damning-benghazi-timeline-spreadsheet.html

    “President Obama wants the American public to believe that the scandal he created over Benghazi is a ‘phony scandal.’ The only thing phony, it turns out, are his talking points, lies and distortions about what happened. Rather than inform Americans of the truth – that our diplomats were attacked by terrorists – he refused to label it a terror attack and instead chose to blame Americans by claiming the attack was related to an ‘Internet video.’

    “He, along with Hillary Clinton, left brave Americans to fend for themselves. Today we heard testimony from Gen. Lovell that the military was standing by to help but the White House never called them up. I find this reprehensible.

    http://gosar.house.gov/press-release/rep-gosar-administrations-benghazi-cover-reprehensible

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  75. publicwatchdog (3,125 comments) says:

    Joyce blocks answers on corporate welfare

    Matthew Hooton | WEEKEND REVIEW

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/joyce-blocks-answers-corporate-welfare-bd-155317

    “…The questions caused extraordinary contretemps within the department. To their shame, no one – Labour, the Greens or the media – had ever asked such questions before. The poor officials had to start from scratch. …”

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Some of us have asked questions about ‘corporate welfare’ before – missed this Mathew?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1111/S00095/wheres-nationals-corporate-welfare-reform.htm

    ‘Where’s National’s ‘corporate welfare’ reform?

    Thursday, 3 November 2011, 5:28 pm
    Press Release: Penny Bright
    PRESS RELEASE: Independent Candidate for Epsom Penny Bright:

    “How many billion$ of public monies could be saved by ‘CUTTING OUT THE CONTRACTORS’?

    3 November 2011

    Where’s National’s ‘corporate welfare’ reform?

    Which of the maor political parties are pushing for ‘corporate welfare’ reform and shrinking the long-term dependency of the private sector on our public monies?

    Where is the ‘devilish detail’ at both local and central government level – which shows EXACTLY where our public rates and taxes are being spent on private sector consultants and contractors?

    Why aren’t the names of the consultant(s)/ contrators(s) – the scope, term and value of these contracts, published in Council or central government Annual Reports – so this information on the spending of OUR public monies is available for public scrutiny?

    Where are the publicly-available ‘Registers of Interests’ for those local government elected representatives, and staff responsible for property and procurement, in order to help guard against possible ‘conflicts of interest’ between those who ‘give’ the contracts and those who ‘get’ the contracts?

    Where’s the ‘transparency’?
    ……”

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

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  76. minus (229 comments) says:

    Cunliffe’s argument was based on Judith Collins requesting a MFAT briefing, i.e such a request is inconsistent with an event which is unrelated to state business.

    Then the documentation shows the briefing was cancelled – i.e. it was no longer consistent with an event which is related to state business.
    Cunliffe was happy to tell only half the truth.

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  77. Keeping Stock (9,373 comments) says:

    UglyTruth said

    Cunliffe’s argument was based on Judith Collins requesting a MFAT briefing, i.e such a request is inconsistent with an event which is unrelated to state business.

    UT; why don’t you change your name to UglyHalf-Truth? Judith Collins did NOT request a briefing; her staff did:

    But later emails show that Collins’ office declined Mfat assistance and said no briefing would be required.
    The New Zealand embassy in Beijing asked about the dinner and said it assumed the booking would be made by Shi. It also asked if transport was required.
    Collins’ office replied nothing was required from Mfat.
    “The minister is having a private dinner on the Sunday evening.”
    Mfat’s China unit policy officer, Nicholas Clutterbuck, advised that “while the dinner can be regarded as private, the minister cannot make unplanned/uncommunicated travel movements around Beijing during her stay”.
    Asked today why there was an initial request for a briefing before the dinner, and then it changed, Collins said:
    “My office naturally asks for briefings for everything but it was a private dinner so it wasn’t needed.”

    Minus is right; Cunliffe, like you, was only telling half the story, because the other half is where the facts lie.

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  78. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    UT; why don’t you change your name to UglyHalf-Truth? Judith Collins did NOT request a briefing; her staff did:

    I was commenting on Cunliffe’s argument. Even if the request came from her staff rather than from Collins herself, the point remains that her office would not have made that request unless there was a reason to believe that the event had some relevance to that office and was not a simple social dinner.

    because the other half is where the facts lie.

    The fact that the briefing didn’t take place doesn’t affect the fact that someone within the state believed that there was a reason for such a briefing to occur.

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  79. Nookin (3,558 comments) says:

    “Even if the request came from her staff rather than from Collins herself, the point remains that her office would not have made that request unless there was a reason to believe that the event had some relevance to that office and was not a simple social dinner.”

    On the other hand, there may well be a blanket rule that any contact with persons such as the border control official should be brought to the attention of MFAT in order to find out whether there are any wider implications and, once that has been done, a decision taken as to whether there is any need for further involvement.

    There seems to be a default conclusion that there is corruption when other explanations are equally consistent. As I recall, reports from other persons present substantiate Collins’ statement that no untoward or inappropriate discussions took place.

    It is time for the likes of Robertson to front up with actual evidence of corruption rather than innuendo.

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  80. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Don’t know why people are so attached to assaulting children. Tradition I guess.

    Thing is, alternative disciplinary measures have been proven to be far more effective and far less harmful.

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  81. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    No, the new Benghazi emails don’t demonstrate a White House cover up

    What they demonstrate is the connection between the lies about the reason for the Benghazi attack and the MSM.

    CBS News President David Rhodes is the brother of Ben Rhodes, the White House deputy national security adviser who drafted the newly released document about Benghazi just days after the Sept. 11, 2012, attack that killed four Americans. Ben Rhodes’s involvement was first revealed Tuesday when Judicial Watch obtained the document as part of a court case.
    http://directorblue.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/the-two-brothers-at-center-of-benghazi.html

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  82. Fletch (6,523 comments) says:

    NASA is giving away thousands of its software programs that do all sorts of things. This doesn’t seem very wise to me.

    Or perhaps you’d like some NASA software for controlling liquid oxygen in a rocket propulsion system?

    You can have either of them for free — along with another 1,000 or so programs that the legendary agency is now making available to the public for the first time.

    “This is the first major organized release of NASA software,” NASA executive Daniel Lockney told VentureBeat.

    Lockney is in charge of the agency’s Technology Transfer Program, and he said the new NASA 2014 Software Catalog includes “everything we could find.”

    NASA breaks down the available software into such categories as propulsion, crew and life support, and vehicle management. There’s tamer stuff, too, like project management, operations, and data server processing.

    There’s a fair share of space-related code, like a pressure systems reporting tool, a Space Operations graphic learning environment, a tool for coordinating observations among observatories, and a tracker of material related to the Shuttle launch depot.

    But there are also more down-to-earth programs — project management tools used by the Webb Space Telescope project, a tracking system for subcontract management, an employee survey tool about their supervisors, a Web-based help management system, and even a TicTacToe Editor and Player.

    Lockney told us that the software comes in various flavors of intellectual property — some open source, some still owned by NASA but made available, some just for use in the U.S.

    To get code for any particular program, you contact the listed software contact person at one of ten NASA field centers, like Johnson Space Center. “You actually call somebody or email them,” he said, a file transfer is arranged, “and they will walk you through how to use [the software].”

    http://venturebeat.com/2014/05/02/psst-want-some-free-nasa-software-for-messaging-the-space-station/

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  83. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    There seems to be a default conclusion that there is corruption when other explanations are equally consistent.

    I don’t see how the circumstances are consistent with an innocent social dinner.

    Clearly Collins originally intended that the dinner would be a venue for discussion of the affairs of state:

    “On Sunday, October 20, the minister will be having a dinner that will include (redacted name). He has agreed to meet with the minister arranged by Mr Stone Shi, Oravida. The minister would like ambassador Carl Worker and his wife to attend this dinner. A briefing from Mfat will be required.”

    Worker did not attend and the dinner went ahead with Collins, her official, Oravida executives Shi and Julia Xu and the Chinese official present.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10002149/Mfat-briefing-requested-before-Oravida-dinner

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  84. minus (229 comments) says:

    But later emails show that Collins’ office declined Mfat assistance and said no briefing would be required.
    The New Zealand embassy in Beijing asked about the dinner and said it assumed the booking would be made by Shi. It also asked if transport was required.
    Collins’ office replied nothing was required from Mfat.
    “The minister is having a private dinner on the Sunday evening.”
    Mfat’s China unit policy officer, Nicholas Clutterbuck, advised that “while the dinner can be regarded as private, the minister cannot make unplanned/uncommunicated travel movements around Beijing during her stay”.
    Asked today why there was an initial request for a briefing before the dinner, and then it changed, Collins said:
    “My office naturally asks for briefings for everything but it was a private dinner so it wasn’t needed.”
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10002149/Mfat-briefing-requested-before-Oravida-dinner

    UglyTruth does much the same as Cunliffe – half the truth

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  85. publicwatchdog (3,125 comments) says:

    Looks like Judith Collins is cruising for a political BRUISING when Parliament sits again Tuesday 6 May 2014?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1405/S00039/emerging-evidence-has-justice-minister-in-deeper-mire.htm

    Emerging Evidence Has Justice Minister in Deeper Mire

    Friday, 2 May 2014, 5:05 pm
    Press Release: New Zealand First Party

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1405/S00034/judith-collins-briefing-request-the-final-straw.htm

    Judith Collins briefing request the final straw

    Friday, 2 May 2014, 3:12 pm
    Press Release: New Zealand Labour Party

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1405/S00012/serious-questions-over-money-and-influence-in-national.htm

    Serious questions over money and influence in National

    Thursday, 1 May 2014, 2:12 pm
    Press Release: Green Party
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    In my considered opinion, as an ‘Anti-corruption Public Watchdog’ – Minister of Justice Judith Collins is CORRUPT – has misled both the House and the NZ public over her role in promoting the interests of her friends’ and husband’s private company Oravida, and must be stood down as a Minister – FORTHWITH.

    I predict that this may happen on Monday 5 May 2014 – if not before ………..

    Penny Bright

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  86. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    UglyTruth does much the same as Cunliffe – half the truth

    Like I said previously, the fact the Collins wasn’t briefed by the MFAT doesn’t affect the fact that the purpose of dinner was originally seen as being concerned with affairs of state.

    “My office naturally asks for briefings for everything but it was a private dinner so it wasn’t needed.”

    It isn’t natural for her staff to ask for briefings relating to her private life.

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  87. Viking2 (11,672 comments) says:

    Oh My god.
    we have got to lunchtime and the religious nutter freaks have stayed away.

    Now watch what happens.see you when they have gone to bed again.

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  88. wikiriwhis business (4,192 comments) says:

    “Our laws have to protect the vulnerable”

    When business owners and women on farms in rural areas can protect themselves without fear of legal recrimination – under Labour and National govts – Then your words will have substance.

    At the moment people have to risk a jail sentence for using arms to protect their famulies and businesses.

    Although, in saying that juries probably won’t convict them. But as in the US judges may order juries to do just that.

    where upon the integrity of the courts will fall into disrepair as the police have almost done to themselves.

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  89. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Fletch,

    Mother Jones Left Wing.? Yes quite possibly but then what is Fox news, huh ? ,which has persistently orchestrated , along with other far right blogs and media, the unsubstantiated claims and falsehoods about the alleged Benghazi Conspiracy and cover up.

    More about the Rhodes email here,

    The Ben Rhodes Email: Fox’s New (False) Benghazi Attack
    Blog ››› April 29, 2014 3:13 PM EDT ››› MATT GERTZ
    Like
    3.4k

    Fox News is distorting a memo used to prepare an Obama administration official for media appearances to falsely suggest that the administration was lying about the Benghazi attacks for political gain.
    On September 16, 2012, five days after the September 11 attacks on U.S. diplomatic facilities in Benghazi, Libya, then-UN Ambassador Susan Rice appeared on the Sunday political talk shows and suggested that the terror attacks had grown out of spontaneous protests. At the time, there were riots at American facilities across the Muslim world, inspired by an anti-Islam video. Since then, conservatives led by Fox News have claimed that Rice’s comments on the Sunday shows were part of a deliberate effort to deceive the American people about the cause of the attacks, to bolster President Obama’s re-election campaign. This effort has often involved distorting the CIA-approved talking points that Rice used to prepare for the interviews.
    On April 29, Fox renewed these claims, seizing on a newly released  September 14, 2012 email from Deputy National Security Advisor Ben Rhodes to other key national security aides — which details goals for the Sunday interviews and a series of potential questions and answers — that was released under public records law by the conservative group Judicial Watch. Over on-screen text which claimed “New Benghazi Documents Lead Directly To The White House,” Fox correspondent Catherine Herridge highlighted that according to the email, one of the goals for Rice’s appearances was “To underscore that these protests are rooted in an internet video and not a broader failure of policy.” She concluded that Fox had asked the White House “for comment on the Rhodes email, and what intelligence led to that conclusion that somehow an Internet video was responsible for the protests in Benghazi.”

     

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    But contrary to Herridge’s contention, the Rhodes email reveals nothing new. It is consistent with other intelligence briefings circulating at the time which have already been well-documented, and discusses a wide range of issues, not just Benghazi — in fact, the specific comment Fox highlighted was an accurate depiction of the multiple riots occurring in the region at the time. When the email was sent, there were global anti-American protests in response to the video, often violent, many of which targeted U.S. diplomatic security posts, including in Egypt, Indonesia, Qatar, Pakistan, Sudan, Bangladesh, and Yemen.
    In his twenty paragraph email advising Rice on her upcoming TV appearances, Rhodes made only two direct references to Benghazi — first highlighting support from the Libyan government for U.S. diplomatic efforts in the country, and later debunking the false claim that there was any “actionable intelligence” prior to the attack on the facility in Benghazi and stating that “the currently available information suggests that the demonstrations in Benghazi were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the US Embassy in Cairo and evolved into a direct assault against the US Consulate and subsequently its annex.” That language is identical to the initial draft of the separate set of CIA talking points that were crafted by CIA analysts earlier that day, suggesting that Rhodes had seen that early document and was using it to ensure the administration’s statements were consistent with the intelligence community’s conclusions.
    A bipartisan Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report released in January 2014 stated that “[s]ome intelligence suggests the attacks were likely put together in short order, following that day’s violent protests in Cairo against an inflammatory video.” Indeed, former CIA acting director Mike Morrell has testified that the CIA chief of station in Libya believed at the time that the video might have motivated the attackers. The Senate report also determined that “there were no efforts by the White House or any other Executive Branch entities to ‘cover-up’ facts or make alterations for political purposes” — a reality that Fox has refused to accept.
    UPDATE: A report (PDF) from the Congressional Research Service published days after the attacks in Benghazi details how “Muslims in a number of countries have responded in recent days with anger at the United States that many observers describe as a response to a privately produced film circulating on the Internet that denigrates Islam and the prophet Mohammed.” According to the report, as of September 14, 2012, when Rhodes’ email was sent, such protests – often violent and focused on U.S. diplomatic facilities — had occurred in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Sudan, Egypt,  Lebanon, Turkey, Yemen, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Iraq, Iran, Bangladesh, and Malaysia.

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/29/the-ben-rhodes-email-foxs-new-false-benghazi-at/199067

    A very perceptive poster from the link makes the following remark,

    “250 dead marines when terrorists bombed their barracks in Beirut during Reagan’s term….look dear, it happens all the time. Now, the bipartisan, note….bipartisan senate committee said there was no White House cover up of facts. But, of course Fox News and it’s deranged viewers can’t handle the truth.”

    Thus Fletch ,are you suggesting that the Senate Bi Partisan review committee got it all wrong and that the “impeccably impartial” “Fox News got it all t right ?

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  90. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “Mother Jones Left Wing.? Yes quite possibly”

    Come on Stephie. You know they are absolutely Left Wing.

    “but then what is Fox news, huh”

    Right Wing.

    Yay for diversity! :)

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  91. Nookin (3,558 comments) says:

    I have read the Cabinet manual particularly the part relating to travel. It seems clear that the tenor of the manual requires a precautionary approach and that Collins’ explanation is entirely consistent with the manual.

    On the other hand, if she had inappropriate motives, surely she would not have signalled the impending meeting by notifying Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade but would have pegged it as a private meeting from the outset?

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  92. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    MyJewishLearning:

    Thus uncensored versions of the Talmud influenced early medieval attitudes toward Christianity. In addition, mention should be made of the vehemently anti-Christian Toledot Yeshu (The Life of Jesus), a Jewish biographical narrative about Jesus, which probably appeared in its complete form around the 10th century. In it, Jesus is presented as the product of a rape–a disrespectful rebel who achieved supernatural powers by stealing a holy name from the Temple.

    http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Jews_and_Non-Jews/Attitudes_Toward_Non-Jews/Christianity.shtml

    Some versions contain a scene of anal rape of Jesus by Judas.

    https://events.umn.edu/029437

    The stories claim that Jesus was an illegitimate child, and that he practiced magic and heresy, seduced women, and died a shameful death.[5]

    No wonder they spit on Christians in Israel :)

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  93. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “No wonder they spit on Christians in Israel”

    Thousands upon thousands of Christians travel to Israel regularly, and of course many live there, and have never been spat on. Taking a few isolated incidents and claiming they are the norm is lying again.

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  94. Manolo (14,166 comments) says:

    Calm down, stephie. Are you a hormonal and temperamental diva?
    Besides your god Obama, what political party do you support in NZ?

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  95. OneTrack (3,350 comments) says:

    “Cunliffe was happy to tell only half the truth.”

    Condition normal then.

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  96. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Stephie,

    I answered the question in my first response. ALL media is biased. Mother Jones is Left wing, MSNBC is Left wing, Fox is Right wing. Simple as that.

    FOX is not unbiased, but neither is any other news service, and Fox, whatever it’s faults, has provided a news service for the Right, and most Americans are on the Right to some degree, after decades of an almost total monopoly by the Liberal-Left.

    In a free society and a democracy, that is a good thing.

    As to the Bhengazi issue, I have no opinion one way or another.

    But, it’s Hilary Clinton we are talking about. I always assume she’s covering something up.

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  97. kowtow (8,936 comments) says:

    That integration and multicultural thing is going sooooooooooooooooooo well in Britainistan.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10804289/Head-teachers-raise-serious-concerns-over-Islamic-school-take-over.html

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  98. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Manolo, hormonal…..?

    Political Party.? Certainly not the Right Wing Resistance.?
    Next Question.?

    Shawn, by all means lets have diversity but lets learn to discern and recognize falsehoods , fabrications and flights of fancy that are a feature of Fox. IMHO.

    Fox Nation vs Reality,

    http://www.newscorpse.com/ncWP/?p=8516

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  99. kowtow (8,936 comments) says:

    The grim irony about the Sue Bradford anti parenting bill is as northland Wahine points out ,that parents no longer are allowed to discipline their children,

    but make no mistake the state certainly won’t back off disciplining the shits when they turn 17.

    parental discipline is better than a criminal record and gaol.

    And I have no doubt that in the fullness of time there will be parents convicted for “abuse” when they tell their children that if they don’t buck themselves up they’ll end up in gaol……..just a matter of time.
    http://www.sussex.police.uk/whats-happening/latest/news-stories/2013/03/30/police-extend-definition-of-domestic-abuse

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  100. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Stephie, read the New York Times or watch MCNBC. The Liberal parts of the media have been making things up and indulging in falsehoods for decades.

    Fox is doing an important job, keeping the fire under the Dems feet. There is a great deal to be concerned about, not the least is the abuse of power in using the IRS to attack conservative and tea party groups. If Fox engages in a bit of overstatement, that’s fine with me, so long as they keep the heat on the Dems.

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  101. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    “Thousands upon thousands of Christians travel to Israel regularly, and of course many live there, and have never been spat on.”

    Agree. Same in the Muslim countries. The extremists are a minority.

    Though the numbers of Haredi are rapidly increasing causing major problems for the government. It is not only the Modesty Patrols and violence. They refuse to join the army, refuse to work and are against the establishment of the modern state of Israel.

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  102. hannity (152 comments) says:

    ‘As I recall, reports from other persons present substantiate Collins’ statement that no untoward or inappropriate discussions took place’

    Were they fluent in Mandarin or just bullshit?

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  103. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “The grim irony about the Sue Bradford anti parenting bill is as northland Wahine points out ,that parents no longer are allowed to discipline their children,”

    I think Sue Bradford’s bill was wrong, and I don’t think she was ever honest about her real motivations for it. That said, the previous law had problems too, in that it gave juries too much leeway, and some pretty obvious child abuse was getting through the cracks.

    I’m inclined to agree with what Judith said the other day. The law needs reforming rather than dumping outright, especially in terms of clarifying, what is reasonable physical discipline, so that parents have clear guidelines.

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  104. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Kea, the Haredi are Israel’s issue. It’s got nothing to do with you, and has no relevance to NZ. Move on.

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  105. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    ShawnLH , same with radical Muslims. Not our problem.

    The Haredi are a growing problem in the UK and the US. They have recently been exposed in a child sex scandal in those places that makes the Catholic child raping look mild.

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  106. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH , same with radical Muslims. Not our problem.”

    Terrorism is our problem.

    The Haredi are irrelevant. They pose no threat. Child sex scandals can be found in every human community and almost every kind of organisation. Ask the BBC.

    Nobody apart from a couple of neo-Nazi’s here cares about your obsession with them.

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  107. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Shawn , you will just love this from this Islamic Website ,

    Fox News leads anti Islamic ” vicious “propaganda attack

    http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f17/fox-news-leads-anti-islam-propaganda-37115/

    Yes, I suppose based on Hilary Clinton’s past covering up her errant husband you may have a right to assume many things.
    But so long as they are based on factual evidence and not the spurious assertions and false claims from Fox about Benghazi.

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  108. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    On the other hand, if she had inappropriate motives, surely she would not have signalled the impending meeting by notifying Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade but would have pegged it as a private meeting from the outset?

    According to stuff it wasn’t Collins who notified the MFAT, but rather her staff.

    The classic ingredients for corruption are present here:

    nepotism – her husband is a director or Oravinda
    financial interest – Oravinda is a National party donor.
    absence of judicial impartiality – Collin’s title of minister of justice suggests impartiality.

    Also corruption exists as a matter of fact with the NZ judicial system:
    http://www.actsinjunction.info/corruption.html

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  109. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, share with us the threat you face from Muslims. Starting with the most recent incident ?

    Do you not see the demonising of Muslims, contrary to personal experience, has a parallel with Jews being targeted in the past ? The most absurd nonsense was told about Jews to make them appear less human. You buy into this same behaviour today and only target has changed. This creates the social environment needed to start the killing. Which is exactly what is happening now with your approval. All over the world people are dying for the crime of being born in a Muslim country. If you think dirt poor people in Yemen and Mali are a threat to you then you are beyond help.

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  110. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    “Nobody apart from a couple of neo-Nazi’s here”

    Names please ?

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  111. Keeping Stock (9,373 comments) says:

    Penny Bright said

    In my considered opinion, as an ‘Anti-corruption Public Watchdog’ – Minister of Justice Judith Collins is CORRUPT

    In MY considered opinion as an Auckland business ratepayer, Penny Bright should pay her outstanding rates forthwith, or the Auckland Council should take legal action against her for recovery of the full amount of the arrears, plus interest. I am sick of rate increases to subsidise big-noting busy-bodies who profess to be as pure as the driven snow, but are arguably as corrupt and dishonest as those whom they accuse of corruption, for wholly political purposes.

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  112. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, share with us the threat you face from Muslims. Starting with the most recent incident ?”

    This is your problem Kea, you put words into other people’s mouths that they have not said.

    I clearly said that the threat is Islamic terrorism, not Muslims in general. I have no particular animus with Islam in it’s more mainstream forms. I’m quite partial to Sufi mysticism.

    Your hyperbole with regards to the supposed persecution of Muslims around the world is just a fantasy in your head.

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  113. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Names please ?

    UglyNazi rings a bell..

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  114. Sofia (857 comments) says:

    A true public watchdog would have pointed out years ago the ineffectiveness of the Auckland City Council if they knew, as Penny Bright does, that someone hadn’t paid their rates for 6 years, like sometime 2008.

    There is certainly more direct evidence that Penny Bright is corrupt and ineffective, than either Judith Collins or John Banks.

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  115. kowtow (8,936 comments) says:

    The simplest answer to the complex Ukraine issue is referenda.

    Each cultural area to vote in /out.Before there’s an all out war.

    The west were happy to dismember Serbia in the same way,why not Ukraine.

    Territorial integrity should not over ride the wishes of the people there.

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  116. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    “Your hyperbole with regards to the supposed persecution of Muslims around the world is just a fantasy in your head.”

    He says over the bodies of hundreds of thousand dead with drones and bombs still flying to kill even more.

    The killing must stop. The West needs to bring its people home and focus on protecting our own values. In places like the UK they have troops in foreign lands killing radical Muslims, while allowing them to flourish back home. The radicals in London are far more dangerous and have far more resources than dirt poor goat herders in the African or Afghan deserts. Yet the London radicals have special laws protecting them. Being critical of London radicals is like being critical of Jews on KB ! It is met with hysteria.

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  117. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    UglyTruth. Gosh no demerits. Calling people a Nazi Pig is okay. :)

    ShawnLH (2,229 comments) says:
    April 12th, 2014 at 4:49 pm
    UglyNazi,

    and the article shows Reid’s quote is a fake.

    Nazi pig.

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  118. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “He says over the bodies of hundreds of thousand dead with drones and bombs still flying to kill even more.”

    Want to provide some factual source for the claim of “hundreds of thousands.”?

    “The killing must stop. The West needs to bring its people home”

    So long as there is a clear and present danger from al-Qaeda, that is not a rational position.

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  119. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Reid has actually sourced articles from Nazi, Neo-Nazi and white supremacist web sites on several occasions. You don’t get demerit points for pointing our the truth that someone who is willing to do that is likely a neo-Nazi.

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  120. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    … the Senate Bi Partisan review committee

    Stephie, given that you twice claimed Mitt Romney was a GOP member of Congress (even after being corrected once), then claiming that Abraham Lincoln was the GOP governor of Illinois, followed by claims that the Tea Party was pro-war – which I had to refute twice by referring you to what none other than antiwar.com had to say about Tea Party opposition to Obama’s Syrian adventure – I think it would be fair to say that you have absolutely no idea about US politics beyond what you read in Media Matters.

    In fact you’re so eager to simply cut and paste the Senate Committee stuff that you actually repeated a whole bunch of text twice in the same comment during yesterday’s GD – a clear indication that you’re not even reading what you write, let alone thinking about it.

    For starters, do you actually have any understanding at all as to how Senate Committees work? They’re controlled by the party that controls the whole Senate, which means that they’re only bi-partisan in the makeup of the various committees, not necessarily in what they produce, which is why each group published separate opinions about the report. This from the GOP side:

    “We believe Ms. Lamb’s testimony is critical to determining why the leadership failures in the State Department occurred and the specific extent to which these failures reached into its highest levels.”

    Ms Lamb having been the State Department’s Deputy Assistant Secretary for International Programs, key to the decisions made about setting up the Temporary Mission Facility that was the focus of the 9/11/2014 attack. Even before yesterday’s “Rhodes” email there were a bunch of earlier emails where Eric Nordstrom, the Regional Security Officer in Libya, had almost begged Lamb’s office for more security in Benghazi, to which he got this reply:

    “Well, you know, this is a political game. You have to not make us look bad here, that we’re not being responsive.”

    Nordstrom himself was so saddened by this that he later wrote one of his colleagues (but before the 9/11 Benghazi attacks):

    I doubt we will ever get [Diplomatic Security] to admit in writing what I was told [in] reference [to] Benghazi that DI/[International Programs] was directed by Deputy Assistant Secretary Lamb to cap the agents in Benghazi at 3, and force post to hire local drivers. … I hope that nobody is injured as a result of an incident in Benghazi, since it would be particularly embarrassing to both DS and DAS [Lamb] if it was a result of some sort of game they are playing.

    No wonder they did not want Lamb to testify, and although it’s rather hard to declare a report to be “definitive” in light of this it obviously does not matter to Obama shills like you.

    I also enjoyed the parsing that the Democrats employed in comments like this:

    … there were no efforts by the White House or any other Executive Branch entities to ‘cover-up’ facts or make alterations for political purposes”

    Had the Rhode’s email been released earlier – and the failure to release it until now is a whole issue in itself – I wonder if even the Democrat Senators would have dared to write such crap in light of Rhode’s email containing the specific instruction to Susan Rice:

    To underscore that these protests are rooted in an Internet video, and not a broader failure of policy

    Spin does not get more political than that, especially when you realise that those were instructions issued not in the confused hours after the attack, but three days later, when even foreign papers like Der Spiegal had their sources and reporters writing about a planned terrorist attack rather than some nonsense about a riot spinning out of control. Even more so when everyone understood that Obama’s primary claim for foreign policy success was that Al Queda had been “decimated” and “was on the run”.

    Or how about this brilliant parsing of language:

    “There Was No Singular ‘Tactical Warning’ In The Intelligence Reporting Leading Up To The Events On September 11, 2012, Predicting An Attack On U.S.”

    “No Singular Tactical Warning”! That’s precious. It means that even if they found a recorded cellphone conversation planning an attack on the day but omitting the exact time they could probably still hide under that formulation. This from the people who still complain that because Bush saw an intelligence report containing a vague, generic comment about planes possibly being hijacked by terrorists, he should have seen the original 9/11 attacks coming!

    Apparently now that it’s Obama in the hot seat, getting warnings from multiple sources – including poor old Ambassador Stevens himself – as to how bad things we’re getting in Banghazi, was still not enough to get the State Department off their butts.

    Oh – and please, please cut and paste once again from David Kirkpatrick’s hopeless NYT apologia. Naturally you did not provide the link but it was easy enough to google and I’m sure you still have no idea that his report was shredded by a number of other media, including the Obama-friendly Washington Post. As the following comment made deliciously clear:

    Their motive is obvious. President Obama’s reputation as an effective opponent of terrorism depends on the narrative that he destroyed bin Laden’s terrorism network (what else can Obama point to?). The involvement of members of that network in another 9/11 attack that killed four Americans including an Ambassador undermines that narrative. Thus, it must be combatted.

    The protectors of the narrative found a willing accomplice in the Times’ Kirkpatrick. Fortunately, the Post’s Adam Goldman was unwilling to forfeit his credibility.

    And it has found a willing and entirely credulous accomplice way Down Under in the form of Stephieboy!

    Speaking of credibility, Media Matters itself is a group set up specifically to combat the dreaded monster that is Fox News but still tries to maintain a facade of being balanced and objective but funded by numerous, wealthy Democrat backers and it has acted as nothing but a shield for the Obama administration on any issue one cares to name, much as Moveon.com was set up to defend Clinton during earlier scandals.

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  121. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    You don’t get demerit points for pointing our the truth that someone who is willing to do that is likely a neo-Nazi.

    Unlike your sweet self, I don’t go running to DPF when someone slanders me.

    My point in the original argument was that both ShawLH’s source and truetorahjews both referenced the same photograph of a printed version of Theodor Herzl’s diaries, which said:

    “The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

    http://www.truetorahjews.org/herzl

    The hyprocrisy of ShawnLH’s position is apparent when you consider that most Palestinians are of Jewish descent.

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  122. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine – except that the odds are a culture of arse kicking is likely to lead to a culture of prison violence.

    Ok then – let’s test that one out. Prison violence over time, linked back to upbringing. Prison incidents – probably some records there. A lot of them would come from homes where they really took a caning. I think that’s more your ‘high intensity’ violent environment. In the story – who knows ? Did any of us see it happen ? Are there any telling injuries ? It’s just a waffling unverifiable assertion. Damn – you would’ve made a good local body politician. You’ve got the main ingredient – steaming waffle drowning in syrup.

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  123. kowtow (8,936 comments) says:

    More craven surrenderism from once proud Britain.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/473776/Air-Force-memorial-fenced-off-to-avoid-offending-Libyans

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  124. Nukuleka (399 comments) says:

    I know we’ve all moved on and this is not the right place BUT I am still seething over Williamson’s appalling gaffe in handing ammunition to National’s political enemies. It was bad enough that he made such a dick of himself with his anti- Catholic rants in the same sex ‘marriage’ debate but if this latest example of poor judgement does indeed result in poor results for National in the next round of polling he should announce his decision to quit at the next election and do all National supporters a big favour.

    Stand for Mayor of Auckland if he wants. Aucklanders seem to have such poor judgement when it comes to electing their mayors that he’ll be a shoe-in.

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  125. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I can remember many a time getting either 2, 4 or 6 on the arse from the cane as a school lad.

    It hurt so fucking much that I wished my grand dad had kicked me up the arse instead (he was a little chap). :)

    Just as well it never stunted my development into the wonderful fellow all you KB folk know and love! :)

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  126. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    You don’t get demerit points for pointing our the truth

    I did. I responded to a statement about muslim dress standards by cut and pasting an article, written by a jew, complaining about jewish dress standards.

    DPF gave me demerits for making Jews look bad, but said it was because it was “Off Topic” [sic]. This amongst a blizzard of anti muslim statements celebrating the death of a kiwi along with some other people. This killing was seen as a good thing. They were only muslims after all.

    KB is the place to go if you want to rejoice in killing and death of those not so “chosen” by god. Pretty sick if you ask me and I want no part of it.

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  127. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    handing ammunition to National’s political enemies

    Nukuleka, Labour will only use that ammo to shoot themselves in the foot. Relax ;)

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  128. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I was thinking of getting some ringlets and a black hat Kea.

    Know any kosher habardashers I could contact? :)

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  129. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Judith – I know first hand that the cops don’t always get it right and some of them are useless pricks with the personable appeal of Starlin. But who knows with the cases they take to court how many were marginal etc – moving on –

    Who cares how wonderful your kids are ? So – extrapolate from Judith – never smacked her kids – therefore – unsmacked kids always grow up to be perfect. Can’t take someone seriously when they start creating scroll with that crap. How could that possibly be relevant ? It worked for me, so it must work for the rest of the species ?

    There’s a lot of factors in the ‘how a person turns out’ equation. Greater minds than anyone on here devote their lives to the mysteries of the human brain.

    I love it – they must’ve done something if they’re in court. 100%. Police are infallible and always get it right. What a hoot !! I know they don’t. Fact.

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  130. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “DPF gave me demerits for making Jews look bad, but said it was because it was “Off Topic””

    It was off topic.

    “This amongst a blizzard of anti muslim statements celebrating the death of a kiwi along with some other people. This killing was seen as a good thing. They were only muslims after all.”

    The killing or imprisonment of terrorists is a good thing. The issue of him being Muslim is irrelevant. What was the issue is that he had joined a terrorist organisation. On the day I posted about him, before DPF did, I also posted about the arrest of Gerry Adams, an IRA terrorist, and, obviously, not a Muslim.

    I’m opposed to terrorism, regardless of the religious, secular, or racial background of the terrorists.

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  131. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    The Goff-aligned, PSA-indoctrinated MFAT staff, again leaking shit that is ambiguous and irrelevant to sate their political masters’ demands.

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  132. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Over the years I have known a few chaps who couldn’t get a real job so joined the Police. Most were virtually unemployable but were tall enough to pass the test. One has risen to great heights in the force (very tall)! :)

    Judiths faith in their intellect is touching! :)

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  133. Nookin (3,558 comments) says:

    Hannity

    I doubt that they were fluent in mandarin. But then, nor is Collins. In fact she has limited grasp of mandarin. The Chinese official had limited or no grasp of English. Don’t let that stop you making up shit, jumping to conclusions or shooting from the lip, though.

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  134. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Translation: There was a heated debate and shit flinging – someone got carried away (according to blog owner unknowable subjective lines in the sand) and copped some demerits.

    And they do a mind’s eye haka upon reading the word ‘Jew’ ? Ok – I’m just guessing that part for sure.

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  135. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Minus must be out this afternoon! :)

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  136. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Minus must be out this afternoon!

    Sorry – that was me being a cunt :)

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  137. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Much as I am a cheerleader for all things National (as any sensible fellow would be when you check out the alternative) I do despair when I look at the pair of train wrecks that are JC and MW.

    How can anyone who has been around as long as them make such an arse of themselves, especially in the run up to an election for a third term?

    If we scrape back in I trust JK will find them a suitable pair of portfolios! :)

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  138. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Good lad LRaC! :)

    Seriously the bastard isn’t here. I hope nothing nasty has happened to him! :)

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  139. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Williamson has been a problem for years now. He gave JK a head ache by throwing out various policy suggestions on tv without clearing them first, and which were not Nat policy to begin with, and which would have put a lot of voters off.

    Time for him to go.

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  140. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Well – with any luck he made might’ve made a one-way trip to the wrong part of Wainui . . . hahahaha

    Maybe if I’d had my arse kicked more I wouldn’t be a fucktard. Oh well – haven’t killed anyone yet. Can’t be all bad.

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  141. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Electorate MP’s that have huge majorities yet lack real talent such as Maurice (and dare I say Mallard :) ) tend to think they are bullet proof. Time for the party machine to nobble the electorate commitee! :)

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  142. gump (1,683 comments) says:

    @Johnboy

    “Most were virtually unemployable but were tall enough to pass the test.”

    ————————

    The Police haven’t enforced a minimum height requirement for quite a few years.

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  143. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    So given todays events in Odessa what do you think the future holds for these “ladies”?

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  144. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I mean the idiot says he is standing again!!!!! :)

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  145. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I’m aware of that gump. I’m a very old bastard and they did back then when my buddies signed up! :)

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  146. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    They had bugger all women and no Asians either in those days gump! :)

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  147. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    I’m opposed to terrorism, regardless of the religious, secular, or racial background of the terrorists.

    Except when your own religious organization actively supports state terrorism, of course.

    i.e. the Anglican involvement in the Balfour Declaration and the subsequent violent Zionist persecution of Palestinians of Jewish descent.

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  148. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “i.e. the Anglican involvement in the Balfour Declaration and the subsequent violent Zionist persecution of Palestinians of Jewish descent.”

    Palestinians are Arabs, not Jews. There has been no “Zionist” persecution of anybody. Israel has simply defended itself against Arab aggression, and the so-called “palestinians” are just pawns in the Arab worlds war against Israel. If they are being persecuted by anyone, it is their fellow Arabs.

    I am proud of the Anglican churches role is helping the Jews to reclaim their rightful sovereignty over Eretz Yisrael.

    “Hamas Minister: Palestinians are NOT Indigenous People to Israel”

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  149. Sofia (857 comments) says:

    Back, Johnboy, when the drugs crimes doubled in one year because they caught four people with hash instead of two in the twelve months before :-)

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  150. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    By events in Odessa today I mean this:

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  151. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “MYTH
    “The Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites and were in Palestine long before the Jews.”

    FACT
    Palestinian claims to be related to the Canaanites are a recent phenomenon and contrary to historical evidence. The Canaanites disappeared from the face of the earth three millennia ago, and no one knows if any of their descendants survived or, if they did, who they would be.

    Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia, said the Palestinians’ ancestors had only been in the area for 1,000 years. 9 Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews. In testimony before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, for example, they claimed a connection to Palestine of more than 1,000 years, dating back no further than the conquest of Muhammad’s followers in the 7th century.10Over the last 2,000 years, there have been massive invasions (e.g., the Crusades) that killed off most of the local people, migrations, the plague, and other manmade or natural disasters. The entire local population was replaced many times over. During the British mandate alone, more than 100,000 Arabs emigrated from neighboring countries and are today considered Palestinians.

    By contrast, no serious historian questions the more than 3,000-year-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, or the modern Jewish people’s relation to the ancient Hebrews.”

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFroots.html#2

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  152. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    “I am proud of the Anglican churches role is helping the Jews to reclaim their rightful sovereignty…”

    ShawnLH, A number of different tribes, culture and religions developed in the region. What is your position on others reclaiming their sovereignty ?

    What is your position on other people claiming lands occupied thousands of years ago by their ancestors ? (eg: Maoris claiming property rights in Taiwan)

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  153. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Sofia…… What a lovely name you have my dear! :)

    Indeed. I can remember a chaps fancy dress engagement party I went to up some street on Mt. Vic that got raided by the Police around 2am. They confiscated my pack of Rothmans and dug up the garden looking for the stash. I was released and drove home drunk to the Hutt. (how times have changed :) ).

    The whole show warranted a write up in the Dom next Monday along the lines: “Police were appalled to find drugged and drunken revelers dressed as priests and nuns” :)

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  154. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Kea,

    Jews have lived constantly in Eretz Yisrael for three thousand years. Maori have not lived in Taiwan at all for a very long time. Your comparing apples and oranges.

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  155. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Palestinians are Arabs, not Jews

    After years of research, Misinai says that he can declare with certainty that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews. “And what’s more, about half of them know it,” he says. Not only that, many Palestinians retain Jewish customs, including mourning rituals, lighting Shabbat or memorial candles and even wearing tefillin.

    http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews

    There has been no “Zionist” persecution of anybody.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ariel-sharon-and-the-horrors-of-the-sabra-and-shatilla-massacre/5364681

    ShawnLH, you truly are a vile little hypocrite.

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  156. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Woken up have you minus? :)

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  157. Sofia (857 comments) says:

    Sounds fun, Johnboy – the priests and nuns bit :-)

    It was probably about the same era [error] as police in an Aro Street night raid to catch elderly Chinese opium smokers, didn’t notice a letterbox number had swung around to become a 6 rather than a 9, used a chainsaw on a wall to expose the den and still got people smoking opium.

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  158. minus (229 comments) says:

    Not me, Johnboy! Must be some other bastard :-)

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  159. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, you truly are a vile little hypocrite.”

    No UT, that would be you. The Arab wars against Israel brought on whatever suffering Arabs have gone through. They are responsible, not Israel, while Jew haters like you make up fantasies about who is and is not a “real jew” in order to support Islamic-Fascist and White supremacist hatred of Israel.

    You talk about “genocide” and ‘oppression” but hypocritically gloss over the fact that people like you are happy whenever Jews are being targeted by Nazis and Islamic terrorists.

    Vile does not even come close to your Nazi-like propaganda on KB.

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  160. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Jeeze Sofia I’m not so sure I fancy you now. :)

    If you’ve still got the chainsaw I’ve got some windfalls need clearing! :)

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  161. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Fuck me Shawn – you sure know a lot of shit about ragheads. Fucking seriously impressive. Does that suck up a lot of your off time ?

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  162. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    “Jews have lived constantly in Eretz Yisrael for three thousand years. “

    So why was Israel populated by millions and millions of Europeans and Americans ? If they never left ?

    I accept Jews have lived there for a long time. (The hint was me repeatedly saying so countless times). However that was not my question. What about other peoples who have historic links to the area ?

    But of course you are hiding the truth. The TRUTH is many other places were considered by the British Zionist League, including Tasmania in Australia and Uganda !

    Keep em coming ShawnLH. You are hilarious :)

    Other possibilities[edit]
    In 1903 Herzl presented the British Uganda Programm at the Sixth Zionist Congress in Basel.[12]

    The Kimberley region in Australia was considered until the Curtin government (in office: 1941–1945) rejected the possibility.[13]

    With the support of the then Premier of Tasmania, Robert Cosgrove (in office from 1939), Critchley Parker proposed a Jewish settlement at Port Davey, in south west Tasmania.[14] Parker surveyed the area, but his death in 1942 put an end to the idea.

    The Jewish Autonomous Oblast, set up in the Russian Far East in 1934, represented a Soviet approach to providing a Jewish homeland.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_for_the_Jewish_people

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  163. Sofia (857 comments) says:

    No, Johnboy, it had nothing to do with me – just around at the time. It was the police who were having fun [not to mention good luck] with the chainsaw.

    About then too the Police also searched your Mt Vic, for any trace of Margaret Souter, I think it was, and found 240 pairs of female briefs, which of course would not have counted those who, having been up there, put them back on again, nor included those who went up there without any on to start with.

    Are you sure you were just playing priest and nuns and smoking Rothmans, Johnboy? :-)

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  164. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Has bold taken over from capitalisation as the new shouting? :)

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  165. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    ShawnLH thinks the evil “Nazis” are after gods “chosen ones”. He even thinks KB has been taken over by Nazis ! LOL :)

    Poor wee Shawny. Will someone tell him the war is over and there is no National Socialist Workers Party anymore ?

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  166. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    “By contrast, no serious historian questions the more than 3,000-year-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, or the modern Jewish people’s relation to the ancient Hebrews.”

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFroots.html#2

    =================================================================================

    I checked out YOUR link ShawnLH and found this:

    “The Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E., living under a tribal confederation until being united under the first monarch, King Saul.”

    So they are not from the area. They came from another place. So why does this one group have a right of return.

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  167. Sofia (857 comments) says:

    Kim Dotcom’s Internet Party has released its first draft policy and it has the knives out for the GCSB – the very organisation that spied on its party founder.

    At what technical point does Mana Party considerations, and in particular those of Hone Harawira, amount to an outsider,
    Kim Dotcom, “visionary” of an outside party, trying to influence [corrupt] a sitting Member of Parliament.

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  168. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10004157/87-000-animals-a-year-die-in-scientific-testing

    I somehow have a feeling that if the experiments and the scientists involved were videoed for general viewing the number of experiments would diminish exponentially! :)

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  169. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    That crime was much later than when I got busted surely Sofia?

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  170. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “They came from another place. So why does this one group have a right of return.”

    Because they are the one group that has that right. The “Palestinians” returning to their homelands would have to immigrate to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia and Arabia.

    Israel belongs to the Jews, not the Arabs.

    “Will someone tell him the war is over and there is no National Socialist Workers Party anymore ?”

    Liar. You know perfectly well their are plenty of neo-Nazi groups and individuals out there. You even mentioned Stormfront yourself, so gotcha in a lie again.

    Poor wee tiny man has to lie about there being no neo-Nazis, and has to lie about phoning people all over the world to back up his lame arguments. Pretty pathetic “Kea” (not enough courage to post under your own name?) when you tell lies about phone conversation with Iranian Christians in Tehran and Lord knows who else.

    Run along now silly child.

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  171. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    “(not enough courage to post under your own name?) ”

    That seems fair. My real name is John Bruce O’Yarning.

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  172. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    kea , yes the old NSDAP has come and gone again but there are those who both nostalgically look back ,are inspired and aspire to continue their good work,

    http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=neo+nazis&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=AnxkU8eMEIOVkwXR04GQCg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1670&b

    Are you inspired.?

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  173. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    “They came from another place. So why does this one group have a right of return.”

    Because they are the one group that has that right.

    LOL :) I know the truth makes you confused and angry but try and focus, okay ? So the Jews have exclusive rights to the area just because they do ? Not sure where the Arabs come into it as I never mentioned Arabs. I was wondering who was living there before the Hebrews moved in though ?

    So tell me who the “Nazis” are on KB ? Are you working for Mossad to hunt them down little fella ? I bet those evil Nazi are worried they may be subject to your impotent rage and name calling. :)

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  174. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    You need to get up and sit on a mountain ridge again Kea so you can see what the distance looks like.

    Down and dirty and short-sighted with the piggies will just get you banned again! :)

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  175. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    stupidboy, Why do you think someone so vocal in their opposition to religious persecution and war, would be a Nazi ?

    While those celebrating death and destruction of a religious group, demanding they be rounded up and removed from society, while supporting a supremacist ideology and state, are the ones not like the Nazi ?

    Have you been enjoying a few bevies this afternoon stupidboy ? hic

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  176. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    Johnboy, might be a bit late to worry about banning. I just want the cards on the table so we can put this to rest. They could shut me up by simply telling the truth. That Jews ARE special to them and cannot be held to account like the lessor people and filthy dirty Arabs and Gentiles.

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  177. cha (4,138 comments) says:

    When business owners and women on farms in rural areas can protect themselves without fear of legal recrimination

    Like this?.

    https://soundcloud.com/nydailynews/warning-graphic-audio-of-byron-smith-killing-two-teens-who-tried-to-rob-him

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  178. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    Johnboy: Down and dirty and short-sighted with the piggies will just get you banned again!

    He’s on course! I see our host slapped the perennial moron with another 50 demerits today for one particular ‘contribution’ on the Man Ban thread.

    Unlucky. :lol:

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  179. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Kea my friend KB is a lesser place without you. All you have to do is slightly tone down your comments and you will live to comment again here. God knows I have learned that. If a dumb fuck like me can do it so can you! :)

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  180. publicwatchdog (3,125 comments) says:

    ‘Keeping Stock’ – I suggest that you don’t use words that you obviously don’t know the meaning thereof?

    ‘corrupt’??

    ‘dishonest’?

    In my considered opinion, YOU are as IGNORANT

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ignorant

    ” ADJECTIVE

    1 Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated:”

    as you are ANONYMOUS.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    (Who at least puts her name to her posts.)

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz

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  181. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    “(Who at least puts her name to her posts.)”

    Whatever you do Penny never be tempted to put your photos to your posts! :)

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  182. Nostradamus (2,427 comments) says:

    Penny Not-So:

    While you have your dictionary open, what word (in your considered opinion) best describes these hysterical scenes?

    My favourite quotes:

    “What am I being arrested for?”
    “I sat in a tent!”
    “What am I being charged with?”
    “I never breached the peace. They did, not me!”.

    My suggested dictionary word: crybaby

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  183. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Vladimir Putin on a course for disaster.

    “Russian President Vladimir Putin’s adventurism in Ukraine is likely to end in strategic disaster for Russia, writes Robert G Patman, of the University of Otago.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10001712/Vladimir-Putin-on-a-course-for-disaster

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  184. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    cha (3,559 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 5:30 pm
    When business owners and women on farms in rural areas can protect themselves without fear of legal recrimination

    Like this?.

    https://soundcloud.com/nydailynews/warning-graphic-audio-of-byron-smith-killing-two-teens-who-tried-to-rob-him

    Yes like that.

    BTW the victim was the guy being robbed, not the robbers.

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  185. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Uruguay announces legalisation of marijuana plan.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-27265310

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  186. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    birdbrain, glad I got a bite out of you. No ,the comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is a false one, but hey, coming from you ,what more could one expect from an Islamic Jihadist apologist and lackey like you.
    The fact that the Jews arrived in that area c 1,500 C , survived against all the odds (, Babylonian exile , expulsion by e.g Hadrian, persecution by the mediaeval church , Crusades etc. etc ) is a great marvel in its self.
    The Palestinians certainly have a far lessor right to be there and under the Ottomans they were simply not acknowledge as thus. Just another arab community no different to any other and r subject to their masters.The very term Palestine is not even a native arab term but owes its name to Emperor Hadrian who wanted to expunge the presence of Jews from what was Roman Judaea .It was renamed Syria Palestina after the last jewish Revolt 135 AD.
    As a matter of interest the Ottomans ruled the area from Damascus and Jews did remain as a presence even after the revolt and under the Ottomans. But the the name Palestine was just a geographic expression not a name of a peoples.That only became the case after the Ottoman collapsed and the Jews continued their return to their former homeland.

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  187. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “So tell me who the “Nazis” are on KB ?”

    Reid. Probably UglyTruth, and your shaping up to fit the profile with your constant obsession with demonizing the Jews on every topic thread.

    “While those celebrating death and destruction of a religious group, demanding they be rounded up and removed from society, while supporting a supremacist ideology and state, are the ones not like the Nazi ?”

    Nobody here is saying any of those things liar. Your ridiculous hyperbole about the entire Muslim world being under attack is hysteria driven crap. Most of the Islamic world is not under any kind of atack.

    And, I think your lying about your concern for them. You have already stated your own bigotry towards and hatred of all religions, including Islam, so we are supposed to believe your concerned about Muslims?

    I call bullshit on that. Your just using Muslims as an excuse to hide your vile Jew hatred behind.

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  188. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Shocking scenes there Nostradamus.

    If only Penny had popped down to Wainui to deliver the barbed wire and told me of her welding skills she could have turned my rusty old ploughshares into sculptural art and we would both be filthy rich! :)

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  189. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    “,the comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is a false one”

    Who compared them stupidboy, was it the elusive “Nazi” lurking somewhere on KB ?

    You seem to know a lot of history. Can you tell us who was living there before the Hebrews moved in ?

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  190. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Don’t forget the WCC is looking for a replacement for the Chew’s Lane monstrosity! :)

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  191. cha (4,138 comments) says:

    Yes like that.

    You’re the semi-literate cretin who routinely condemns summary execution by drone so what’s different – Haile Kifer’s whimper?.

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  192. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    He’s on course! I see our host slapped the perennial moron with another 50 demerits today for one particular ‘contribution’ on the Man Ban thread.

    I am shocked I was not banned outright. I give him some credit for that.

    But at last we see the bias crystal clear and those who can not never will, as they are blinded by their god-goggles.

    I just wish you lot would stop the killing and persecution. You have been at it for a few thousand years. It is probably time to call it quits.

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  193. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I’m beginning to see how frustrated our Social Welfare folks get trying to save fuckwits from themselves! :)

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  194. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    You’re the semi-literate cretin who routinely condemns summary execution by drone so what’s difference – Haile Kifer’s whimper?.

    The thieves broke into an elderly mans house to rob him. No comparison.

    Did you find the recording distressing and upsetting. I did !

    Killing is not nice. I wish you could see what the aftermath of a drone strike looks like. I wish you could see kids blown into steaming lumps of meat. Smell it and hear it. If the collateral damage was your family you would then know why I go on like I do. Yet you think I am a “cretin” for opposing it.

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  195. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “I just wish you lot would stop the killing and persecution. ”

    Nobody here is doing any killing or persecution. Stop lying “Kea.”

    The only person doing any persecution here is you, with “Jews this” and “Jews that” and oh here’s a thread about a swimming pool, “lets talk about evil Jews.”

    Your a bigoted Jew hater, and your supposed “concern” for Muslims is a lie.

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  196. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    Johnboy, come now I listened to your wise words and have toned it down, while being called a Nazi amid a tirade of abuse from the friends of Geesus :)

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  197. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Kea. It doesn’t really matter if the bomb is delivered by a drone or a manned aircraft. The bit’s of steaming meat are just the same. In fact the butcher’s bill could be delivered by an artillery piece or a mortar. War is shit and innocent folk die along with the guilty.

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  198. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    If you want to keep talking to the friends of Jesus Kea get more rational. You just look stupid when you go over the top.

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  199. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Good old minus….just like cancer! :)

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  200. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    The only person doing any persecution here is you, with “Jews this” and “Jews that” and oh here’s a thread about a swimming pool, “lets talk about evil Jews.”

    ShawnLH, oops. Go check the thread. It was in response to anti muslim comments. My contribution was to show this sort of conservative demand is common with other religions and I provided examples.

    Your a bigoted Jew hater, and your supposed “concern” for Muslims is a lie.

    I hope I am not keeping you from your important undercover work hunting “Nazis” on KB angry little fella :)

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  201. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    “If you want to keep talking to the friends of Jesus Kea get more rational. You just look stupid when you go over the top.”

    johnboy, give an example ?

    I know truth is hard to accept as we are not used to hearing it, but every single claim I make can be checked. I am careful of what sources I use and most are from Israel itself. If someone finds the truth “over the top” it is not my problem.

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  202. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Kea, the problem as Johnboy points out is your own rhetoric. You leave yourself open to the accusation of being a Jew hater when your sole focus is on them, and your rhetoric in regards to them is so clearly dripping with disdain and hate.

    There are probably dozens of ways to truly oppose war and religious persecution if that really is your concern, without falling into the trap of engaging in persecutory rhetoric.

    Moreover, your basing your claims on a very thin and dubious assertion, that the war against Islamic terrorism is somehow a form of religious persecution. But that is hyperbole to say the least, and it ignores the fact that on KB most of the supporters of that war are not even religious folks, let alone Christians or Jews.

    Your problem is that you don’t seem to know how to make an argument without using extremist rhetoric and put downs, and ridiculously loaded questions, along the lines of “have you stopped beating your wife yet?”

    If you approach people in that way, your not going to get a debate, your going to get a flame war.

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  203. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    ShawnLH , oh for Gods sake don’t YOU start running for the moral high ground and lecturing others about hyperbole, dubious assertions and rhetoric.

    It is very clear I am opposed to religion because of all the death and suffering that goes along with it. But singling out particular groups is even worse. As the Jews well know.

    The notion I am against Jews is just absurd. Why on earth would an atheist be against Jews ? I don’t want them harmed or their neighbors. What possible benefit would come from persecuting people I regard highly for their intellectual contributions and who are increasingly atheist ?

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  204. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    Seems about right. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rfhust3dqctdezp/Beneficiary%20Alarm%20Clock.jpg

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  205. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I enjoy reading some of your stuff Kea and I miss you when you are gone but you are your own worst enemy.

    Look back at tonight’s thread and think about things! :)

    Night all! :)

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  206. Lucia Maria (2,651 comments) says:

    On a completely different topic, we have just spent way too much money this year on the kids’ computers.

    $500 on a new screen for a 20 month old laptop (that originally cost $1500), because one of the hinges was cracking and barely holding on with electrical tape. This is for our Year 12 boy.

    For our Year 9 boy, for whom it is compulsory to have a laptop at school, after spending $650 at the beginning of the year for an ASUS tablet with detachable keyboard, we’ve just bought him a $750 touchscreen HP laptop with a more expensive case ($80) as well as a $130 extended warranty, because we couldn’t bring ourselves to spend $450 plus associated courier costs fixing his ASUS tablet glass screen (not to mention all the delay in getting it for school which starts next week), which cracked on the last day of the term because he leaned a wall with it in his backpack and the backpack on his back. In the US, apparently ASUS will repair free of charge in the first year, but no so here in NZ.

    I don’t even want to add all that up. I suppose I should be glad I’ve only got 2 children.

    We probably should have got the ASUS repaired, but hopefully, since the Year 9 boy likes the new laptop more (it can play the more high powered games he likes and the ASUS couldn’t), he will be more careful with it.

    I keep thinking that the money could have gone to better use.

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  207. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    “Seems about right.”

    nasska, the world would be a better place with a clock like that :)

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  208. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    $500 on a new screen for a 20 month old laptop (that originally cost $1500)

    Lucy, must be a dam fine laptop for that money. My whole computer only cost about $500 and has worked reliably for years.

    I have a different one for work though.

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  209. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    Kea

    If you happen to venture into the ghetto known as the Cameron Block on the eastern side of Masterton you’d realise that there’d be a clock like that at every bedside.
    But they don’t make the world or their neighbourhood a better place. A more over-fecund, scruffy, unsmiling, unwashed pack of no hopers you’d never find. :)

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  210. Lucia Maria (2,651 comments) says:

    Kea,

    Laptops always cost more than the equivalent desktop computer. It is a damn fine laptop, mainly because my husband insisted we get an SSD drive (no moving parts), and it had to be good enough specification-wise, to last a number of years. For school, they need devices that load quickly and have good battery life, and boys tend to want their laptops for gaming (therefore more cost).

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  211. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    Lucia

    Have a look at ref: http://www.trademe.co.nz/computers/laptops/laptops/lenovo/auction-722479087.htm

    My laptop died last week & the robust construction of this one appeals as a replacement.

    Edit: I have a feeling that the cause of death of my last one was dropping it out the door of the Landcruiser.

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  212. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    nasska, still seems like a lot to spend, unless you need it for something specific. I only use mine for reading, youtube, this and non work emails. Mine is a cheapy and does it all with no issues.

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  213. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    My preferences in a replacement laptop limit choices Kea. I’d rather stick to Lenovo as I’ve had a great run out of them so far. Secondly, I’m buggered if I’m going to have Win 8 forced on me…..it’s got to be Win 7.

    I’d rather pay a few bob extra than have something that I don’t want.

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  214. Lucia Maria (2,651 comments) says:

    Nasska,

    Google for reviews on it and see if it’s worth the money.

    I find it’s best to physically look at them (in the store) to decide if they’re going to work for you.

    Then again, it does look good. Not a lot of storage, but if you’re not installing heaps of software or making videos, that shouldn’t be a problem. It does have an SSD drive,and mobile broadband, but it doesn’t look like it’s got the touchscreen, which a lot of the newer laptops have now. Not that my laptop has a touchscreen, so I don’t miss it, but my Year 9 boy loves it. It probably wouldn’t survive being dropped out of a landcruiser (LOL), but you never know.

    Main thing that would put me off would be that it’s ex-demo.

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  215. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nasska (9,649 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 7:01 pm

    Crikey nasska, I bought one for the irresponsible teenager for $200 –
    A lenovo, 2.3 GHz dual core, 2gb ram 140 gb hdd, 15″ screen – corporate quality – refurbished. Not brand new, but $1000 cheaper!

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  216. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    The OS is a problem with older second hand stuff Judith. I mourn XP & I’m resigned to W7 but W8 will be avoided at all costs.

    I’ll go new but I want something that’ll last the distance.

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  217. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    It has Win 7’s on it (home premium). Only a year old, and even had a brand new battery in it.

    But yeah, I can understand you wanting new – good luck finding one with Win 7 on it – they all have 8.
    I bought a tablet today but steered clear of anything with Win 8 on it.

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  218. Nostradamus (2,427 comments) says:

    Nasska:

    Are you comparing Windows 8 to Len Brown? :)

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  219. Nostradamus (2,427 comments) says:

    Just to clarify, Nasska, I was referring to your statement that “I want something that’ll last the distance”.

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  220. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “It is very clear I am opposed to religion because of all the death and suffering that goes along with it.”

    Yes, your an anti-religious bigot. I already knew that.

    Death and suffering go with human civilisation. Take religion out and it makes no difference. Atheist Communist regimes killed vast numbers of people in a very short amount of time.

    Religion is not the problem. The human heart is.

    “The notion I am against Jews is just absurd.”

    You laid into them so often and with such venom that it was, far from being absurd, a reasonable conclusion. If the conclusion is wrong, that’s entirely your fault.

    You hung yourself. Don’t blame others or DPF, man up and take responsibility for your own rhetoric.

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  221. Kea (13,554 comments) says:

    stupidboy, I have taken responsibility and stood my ground with no excuses, blamed no one, and I WILL continue to do so. So no idea what you are on about ? Are you still drinking ?

    You just keep on being immoral and appealing to the popular in the mistaken belief you are securing a place in heaven by defending what is wrong when done by gods special chosen ones.

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  222. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    Bevan rated him as a four out of ten Nostradamus…..he might have been a bit quick on the trigger. :)

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  223. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    Such an unfair world. When a man talks dirty to a woman its considered sexual harassment. When a woman talks dirty to a man its $5.50/min (higher rates from mobiles).

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  224. stigie (1,439 comments) says:

    Thats why JB has sheep Nasska ,no cost, easy to talk to and very low maintenance, can see the attraction !~

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  225. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    $ 5.50 a minute? Bloody hell I’m in the wrong job!

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  226. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    But why would a townie buy a sheep to talk to stigie? Renting has to be the way to go. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mhwb58h345pccli/kiwiphonesex.jpg

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  227. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria, its worthwhile going to the Computer thread on Trade Me and search there. its a topic often raised about suitable replacement laptops. If you have a 9 year old or thereabouts ,seriously consider a Tablet , especially an ipad . If your on a budget then the Google Nexus is serious contender, otherwise a Samsung is a good option.
    As pointed out the Internet is another source of useful information, especially sites like C/Net

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  228. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    8.15 and no joke. Kiwiblog has become far too serious with the god botherers and commie greens and the no policy liarbours.
    Great party you corksoakers are having all day every day. It is not a Debate, it is just kids fighting.
    DPF, do something

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  229. Nostradamus (2,427 comments) says:

    Steve:

    Knock yourself out here :)

    Is it just me, or has the comment editing function been disabled for everyone?

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  230. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    A woman went to her doctor for a follow-up visit after the doctor had prescribed testosterone for her. She was a little worried about some of the side effects she was experiencing. “Doctor, the hormones you’ve been giving me have really helped, but I’m afraid that you’re giving me too much. I’ve started growing hair in places that I’ve never grown hair before.” The doctor reassured her. “A little hair growth is a perfectly normal side effect of testosterone. Just where has this hair appeared?” “On my balls…”

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  231. Lucia Maria (2,651 comments) says:

    Stephieboy,

    Too late now, it’s all bought and being played with as we speak, while chatting online through headphones to his friend. He’s got the equivalent of a tablet with a keyboard: this is what we bought.

    Year 9 is a 13 year old, first year of college, equivalent to a 3rd former btw.

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  232. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    test comment edit,
    edit.
    Works fine Nostradamus, maybe ask a slyofficer

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  233. Viking2 (11,672 comments) says:

    Right at the end of a programme recently, there was a discussion about the obscene cost of entry into Premiership football games, the cheapest price of £60 and £100 per game is not uncommon.
    An older chap being interviewed said he could recall many years ago arriving at the turnstiles (it was probably West Ham United): “That will be ten quid, mate”.
    “What?!” the old chap said “I could get a woman for that!”

    The guy on the turnstile retorted, “Not for 45 minutes each way with a brass band and a meat pie in the interval, you wouldn’t!”

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  234. Nostradamus (2,427 comments) says:

    Test

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  235. Nostradamus (2,427 comments) says:

    Hmmm, that’s weird, I can’t edit my own comments.

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  236. Lucia Maria (2,651 comments) says:

    I’ve had the commenting edit thing not work from time to time and then it just starts working again. Probably the service is down. I’ll check if I can edit this.

    EDIT: yep.

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  237. Nostradamus (2,427 comments) says:

    Thanks Lucia. I’ll hold my breath and wait – hopefully my edit function will be restored before I crackle and pop!

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  238. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    Testing negative Lucy. I don’t downtick coz it is childish – but I did a test for you.
    Sorry

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  239. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nostradamus (2,783 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 8:58 pm

    The ability to edit is determined by sins confessed and those which remain un-repented.

    Perhaps if you tell us every sin you have committed over the last year or so, we could help you identify which one is causing the problem.

    :-) :-) :-)

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  240. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    Perhaps Nostradamus would be more interested in purchasing indulgences for future use Judith.

    Pay in advance plan. :)

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  241. Viking2 (11,672 comments) says:

    http://www.flixxy.com/the-cup-song-you-re-gonna-miss-me-when-im-gone.htm

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  242. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nasska (9,655 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 9:04 pm

    Well yes, that is another option. I guess it depends how important the editing is to him, and the level of indulgence he enjoys! ;-)

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  243. Viking2 (11,672 comments) says:

    Scientists believe that elderly people have so much information in their brain that it takes longer for them to access it.

    Scientists believe that older people do not decline mentally with age, it just takes them longer to recall facts because they have more information in their brains,

    It has been suggested that much like a computer struggles as the hard drive gets full, in the same way humans take longer to access their stored information,

    Researchers say this slowing down it is not the same as cognitive decline.

    “The human brain works slower in old age,” said Dr. Michael Ramscar, “but only because we have stored more information over time

    “The brains of older people do not get weak. On the contrary, they simply know more.”

    SO THERE!! We Are All Brilliant!

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  244. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    Money up front, sin later is the plan Judith. Say, $10 for little fibs through to $200 for bestiality should cover it.

    I’ll split 60/40 with you on all sales. :)

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  245. Nostradamus (2,427 comments) says:

    Judith:

    Perhaps if you tell us every sin you have committed over the last year or so, we could help you identify which one is causing the problem.

    Oh dear – where would I start?

    I find Nasska’s suggestion that I ignore the past and focus on the future slightly more attractive. Not sure how his pay in advance plan would work though – does it come with a money-back guarantee? :)

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  246. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nasska (9,656 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 9:13 pm

    Who pays the GST ?

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  247. Lucia Maria (2,651 comments) says:

    Thanks, Steve. Someone else downticked anyway.

    So, you reckon I must be the purest one here, Judith! I think it’s more likely that the editing comment people have the users divided up into data sections (random from our point of view) and one or more of those sections are down. I’m still active, purely by chance. :)

    Nostradamus, yep, just wait. And be more careful with your comments so you don’t have to edit them.

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  248. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    Total guarantee of satisfaction Nostradamus. If you’re stopped at the Pearly Gates & St Peter dropkicks your sorry arse down to the inferno we’ll refund your money in full :)

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  249. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nostradamus (2,784 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 9:14 pm

    does it come with a money-back guarantee?

    I’m sorry, but the giver cannot be held responsible for whether the receiver enjoys the experience or not.

    Surely you know this – the situation has existed throughout history – ask any couple!

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  250. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    ….”Who pays the GST ?”….

    It’s always tax & small details that derail schemes like these. :)

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  251. Nostradamus (2,427 comments) says:

    Nasska:

    If you’re stopped at the Pearly Gates & St Peter dropkicks your sorry arse down to the inferno we’ll refund your money in full

    The only problem with that, of course, is that money has no material value in the afterlife. So, if money has no material value, then a money-back guarantee would be similarly worthless!

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  252. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Bugger Nasska, see his comment at 9.21pm – this one is too smart – ;-)

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  253. nasska (12,095 comments) says:

    ….” So, if money has no material value, then a money-back guarantee would be similarly worthless!”….

    Good point Nostradamus….we’ll hold on to the cash & post you an IOU. :)

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  254. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    tom hunter (4,023 comments) says:
    May 3rd, 2014 at 2:21 pm
    … the Senate Bi Partisan review committee

    ” in your life , given that you twice claimed Mitt Romney was a GOP member of Congress (even after being corrected once), then claiming that Abraham Lincoln was the GOP governor of Illinois, followed by claims that the Tea Party was pro-war – which I had to refute twice by referring you to what none other than antiwar.com had to say about Tea Party opposition to Obama’s Syrian adventure – I think it would be fair to say that you have absolutely no idea about US politics beyond what you read in Media Matters.”

    I can’t recall claiming Mitt Romney was a GOP member of Congress but I do recall,mistakenly, saying that Abraham Lincoln was Governor of Illinois. I acknowledged the mistake. I cant recall saying the Tea Party was pro War ,but I did say it was a lot of other things and I stand by that. What I see is the Libertarian and Isolationist faction in the Tea Party ,influenced by Ron Paul , taking a stance against intervention in Syria.. But the more Nationalist Sarah Palin faction wanting amore pro active interventionist Foreign policy including Syria

    “Ron Paul looks for ways to avoid contact with the world, whereas Sarah Palin would rather win than withdraw.”,

    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/67455/walter-russell-mead/the-tea-party-and-american-foreign-policy

    Pretty confusing isn’t it. ? Any stance I’ve taken is pretty reasonable and understandable under the circumstances .

    As for the rest. Yes I copied and pasted because that was exactly what Fletch was doing..It was an attempt to get my point across instead of relying on my links which are often not read. It was an attempt to counteract that.Pure and simple Regardless what you think of Media Matters , you present your own evidence and facts that clearly show there was a cover up , a conspiracy by the Obama administration over Benghazi.I would also say you know nothing about US Politics other than what Fox News tells you.

    Finally , you’ve never, never ever, ever made a mistake.?
    Never.?

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  255. Viking2 (11,672 comments) says:

    No dole before 25: youth will have to earn or learn

    PATRICIA KARVELAS
    The Australian
    May 03, 2014 12:00AM

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    TOUGH new “learn or earn” rules that will deprive all people younger than 25 from receiving the general unemployment payment and push them onto the lower-paying Youth Allowance are set to be unveiled in the federal budget.

    The Weekend Australian can reveal that the Abbott government’s first budget will contain a huge welfare reform package with a range of measures, including extending by three years the period before which young ­people can apply for the New­start Allowance.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/budget-2014/no-dole-before-25-youth-will-have-to-earn-or-learn/story-fnmbxr2t-1226903967790#

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  256. Nostradamus (2,427 comments) says:

    Nasska has reminded me of one of my more interesting law school assignments.

    The hypothetical client wanted to sue a fortune teller for committing an offence under some statute or other – from memory it had something to do with fraud. Now this was some years ago, so my memory of the relevant facts is hazy, but I’m pretty sure that the fortune teller hadn’t offered a money-back guarantee either! So it was essentially a case involving providing services under false pretences.

    Hopefully that doesn’t kick-start another religious debate :)

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  257. Viking2 (11,672 comments) says:

    Why tax only ones who pay?

    Natasha Bita
    The Australian
    May 03, 2014 12:00AM

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    ONLY a fraction of Australians pay more in taxes than they pocket in taxpayer benefits over a lifetime — yet Tony Abbott’s debt tax will punish these very people.

    The median Australian household gains $114 a week more in government benefits than it pays in taxes.

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  258. Jack5 (5,274 comments) says:

    A coming challenge to NZ dairy exporting is a connection to the dirty business of palm oil, for which South-East Asian rain forests are being cleared.

    May of our dairy farmers use a byproduct, palm kernel, as supplementary feed.

    For a view of the controversial palm oil business:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/indonesian-villagers-driven-from-villages-in-palm-oil-land-theft-a-967198.html#ref=nl-international

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  259. adze (2,130 comments) says:

    I see McLauchlan over at DimPost has straight out admitted why the Greens get a free ride on his blog:

    “And it means that the blog has a pro-Green slant, not because I support them, especially, but because I don’t write negative posts about them because I don’t want to provoke a fight with my wife.”

    Lol, I knew it. :)

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