General Debate 4 May 2014

May 4th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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303 Responses to “General Debate 4 May 2014”

  1. duggledog (1,412 comments) says:

    I wanted to post this from last night’s GD, Adze @ 11.51 pm:

    “I see McLauchlan over at DimPost has straight out admitted why the Greens get a free ride on his blog:

    “And it means that the blog has a pro-Green slant, not because I support them, especially, but because I don’t write negative posts about them because I don’t want to provoke a fight with my wife.”

    Good on you Adze. McLauchlan: Credibility – nil

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  2. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    Discussions on violence can get very antagonistic, there can be raw emotions involved. But we have to be prepared to talk about it and expose the problems. It’s a very complex issue.

    After posting Kelvin Davis comments here yesterday there was some good discussion. I posted the same at The Standard and the inevitable shitfight ensued.

    But eventually there was some very good comments: Thread and sharp needling on violence

    Too much to post here but this was the beginning of some better debate:

    I find with most men if you treat them with some modicum of respect and keep out of their faces – they will respond in kind. Most normal men hate physical confrontation and will do anything to avoid it. I know I do.

    Except when we are drunk, emotionally wrought, or something has disrupted our routine self-control. And there are many things which fall into that category such as brain damage (A huge portion of male prison inmates have brain-damage symptoms) or PTSD (as did a whole generation of ex-WW2 soldiers.)

    In my experience physical violence by men is a very abnormal condition. Due to our size and upper body strength we are especially capable of it – but compared with most other mammal species we are also remarkably co-operative and non-violent – most of the time.

    But I wish I could say the same about all the other forms of abuse I’ve encountered over the years. In my own personal experience that both genders participate in non-lethal, non-injury causing sexual, emotional and psychological abuse at about the same rates. Neither gender has a monopoly on virtue.

    And this seems to be backed up by considerable research over the last decade.

    Dangerous physical violence, is a uniquely male challenge. It’s our problem due to our genetics. While relatively uncommon in daily life, it’s extreme and highly visible consequences demand attention and a responsibility we must own. Our strength is both a blessing and a curse.

    But in every other respect – abuse in general is a universal challenge that both genders are responsible for. And what I see here on these threads is shouting at each other from increasingly polarised and mutually incomprehensible positions that takes no ownership on this whatsoever.

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  3. minus (147 comments) says:

    Oravida
    One wonders how much time Labour has wasted on this so far, and will do so again this coming week when the OIA requests show the Ambassador’s presence, official briefings, and venue booking and transport assistance were all waived because what may have been a scheduled dinner became private.
    After the swath of paper waved at cameras in news coverage, there can be little else left to request, so it must now be reduced to Labour trying to put together a magic question.

    Meanwhile the public would possibly like to know more about the Cunliffe leadership “primary” donors, who had their money – reputedly about $20,000 – returned rather than their names be revealed, although those donation were accepted, held until “found out”, and likely not the original funds that were given would have been returned, but are still not documented as Standing Orders require.

    Why does Cunliffe’s secret trust and its issues not receive the same hammering as Oradiva?

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  4. EAD (768 comments) says:

    After all the bickering and kerfuffle about the TPP – it looks like it is dead in the water as Japan have refused to sign it. This marks another low point for the Obama administration which when it comes to geo-politics ha been an unmitigated disaster.

    http://www.wnd.com/2014/05/obamas-new-world-order-appears-dead-in-the-water/

    I wonder to myself what the like of the Chinese, Russians, Japanese et. al think of Obama and other Western leaders? I’d haphazard a guess that they have little respect for current western leaders. They’d see them as a bunch of spineless, ineffectual, girly men with no interest in maintaining a strong military to defend their national interests, but a bizarre fixation with homosexual rights.

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  5. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    To all our politicians facing the next few months – stay strong, keep calm, if in doubt keep your mouths shut, double check your emails, pretend pretty girls are ugly, wine is the enemy, never trust a donation, don’t go out to dinner with any member of the human race and well –

    May the 4th be with you!! ;-)

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  6. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, considering the alarming state of the – opposition- it is a scandalous waste of money to even hold an election. Key is a very lucky man :)

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  7. Paulus (2,540 comments) says:

    Judith – in today’s world this should now apply all the time, not just election time.

    In principle I agree with you – you forgot though – pretend pretty boys are ugly too.

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  8. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    Re “McLauchlan over at DimPost”

    It is pretty much all my own work. My wife is political director for the Greens, so you might reasonably think I’m deep in their council, and playing a role in their comms strategy, like Farrar and Slater with National, but it turns out you’d be wrong.

    Denying party collusion is one thing, but doing it in the same sentence as accusing other bloggers of it is a curious approach.

    And interesting that there is no suggestion of collusion by anyone else connected to the Greens or connected to Labour, or Mana, or the Internet Party. National bloggers bad.

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  9. Nostalgia-NZ (4,986 comments) says:

    minus, you need to wake up Oravida is a gift to Labour from which they hope to impress upon the electorate that National looks after its friends and party donors. It will keep going on. I suspect there are already appeals about what was blanked out in the OIA documents. Collins has said it was a cup of tea on the way to the airport, now she has a different version. You must be naïve if you think this is not having some impact on the electorate as election time nears. JK should have lanced this wound in the interest of preparation for the election, however it continues to weep.

    You also seem to be confused about how naïve you seem to think the electorate is, comparing Cunliffe or any other politician’s behaviour to Collins is an admission of ‘she’s not as bad as so and so because they did this.’ Spend some time thinking about that and you may discover, this is not school yard stuff of telling the teacher who is the naughtiest. Collins, the other day, claimed that Robertson approached police when she was minister about an employment issue concerning his daughter. Excuse me for being sceptical but employment issues are not criminal matters but rather civil, however it shows she employs the same logic as you. One politician claiming to be better than another is bloody boring. Personally, Cunliffe could be the biggest jerk in NZ – but that doesn’t excuse the situation Collns is in or how it looks to voters.

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  10. jcuk (625 comments) says:

    Occasionally I remember a time in the life of my son and I when his mother was away out of the country following the death of her father. So I was a ‘sole parent’ for a time and had a problem with my son, then about 7yo swearing … but I had to admit that I did it too … so I suggested and he agreed that if he swore he would get a wack and if I swore he would get a 5p coin.

    We were away ski-ing at Coronet and it went well for a couple of days or so until after coming down one run he started to swear at me in very un-PC terms …. I was a cheat …. dishonest … etc the whole works from an intelligent 7yo :)

    Turned out that I had been running a plus and minus account in my mind and not giving him the 5p’s for my swearing to balance his…. the smacks on the bottom didn’t worry him one little bit through the well padded ski-outfit his Mother had made for him …. But he definitely wanted the 5p’s for my transgressions. :)

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  11. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    doesn’t excuse the situation Collns is in or how it looks to voters.

    Nosty, judging by the Polls the votes do not appear to be all that concerned, in spite of the best efforts of the lefty media.

    Sorry about that :)

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  12. freemark (497 comments) says:

    Why doesn’t Judith just refund the cab fare to the taxpayer? Seems to be the only thing she did that had any material gain for her or anyone. The desperation of the left, the media, Winnie..unbelievable.

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  13. CHFR (219 comments) says:

    Nostalga you may find it is only us political tragics who care about Orivida.

    I have a friend who is a Labour voter to the core and her Facebook post on Labours “big tool” shocked me. She sounded positivley conservative over the increase in Kiwi Saver, saying she resented being treated like a child (she is a teacher BTW) and that she and her husband were more than capable of seeing retirement on the horizon and planning for it. It is things like this that people notice not whether a dinner was private or not.

    Also you and Labour treat us with contempt thinking you are the only ones who know how things are doine in China. Most of us in the real world know that it is relationships that are important in that country and somethimes to get ahead you have to do things that to the gentle eyes of the westerner seem a bit odd/corupt.

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  14. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    judging by the Polls the votes do not appear to be all that concerned

    It’s never easy (or possible) to judge on specific issues via polls. There hasn’t been a poll for weeks, so it’s impossible to judge on this, especially recognising the potential for accumulative effect.

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  15. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    PG, yes but the Polls do not reflect a dissatisfaction with National over all. Most people are smart enough not to throw the country to Labour/Greens just because of a naughty minister. The big picture, for most voters, is National is doing ok. I agree with them.

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  16. stephieboy (2,449 comments) says:

    EAD, I note your link to WND ( formerly World Net Daily or more accurately WingNut Daily ),led by the rabid Joessph Farrah . it’s regarded as to the right of Fox News with a decidedly extreme anti Obama and Muslim agenda ,.It also is pro creationist and Christian fundamentalist and also into heavy duty conspiracy theory like the discredited Birtherism.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/WND

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  17. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    But National may be flattered in the polls due to Labour’s poor performance. A strong opposition party should be far closer to National, which would reduce their support.

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  18. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    stupidboy, what does Rationalwiki have to say about your deeply held beliefs ? You are also fond of posting Pat Condells videos. What does Pat say about your deeply held beliefs ?

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  19. NK (1,101 comments) says:

    I see Colin the Con is now shopping at his sixth seat, Pakuranga, and thinks he can win that. Just like he thought he could win North Shore, East CoastBays, Upper Harbour, Epsom and Rodney. It’s sooooooooo desperate. If he thinks he can get 5% why shop around for a seat?

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  20. muggins (3,108 comments) says:

    I very much doubt that when the results of the next political polls are released that there will be much change.
    I think what kiwibloggers have to accept is that they are just a small group of people whose views don’t represent the views of the majority of voters.
    I reckon if I were to go down the street and knock on every door and ask the question ” Have you ever heard of kiwiblog?” by far the majority of those responding would reply in the negative.
    As for Orivida, I would suggest most people believe it is just a media beat-up are couldn’t care less who Judith Collins dined with. And despite Maurice Williamson contacting the police when he obviously shouldn’t have I believe he will retain his seat in Parliament.

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  21. flipper (3,754 comments) says:

    The Collins thing is very interesting.

    I do not think that Oravida is an issue that worries the great unwashed.

    There is a perception thing that is of concern to the beltway and others. But there is also real concern among many of her colleagues that all has yet to be disclosed. In short, Collins no longer has any prospects of elevation, but is being “protected” from the left wing rodents in the Parliament. And from a policy aspect she has lost all credibility. If the High Court allows judicial review of her actions over Bain/Binnie she will be toast to the extent that re-election would very likely see her out of the Cabinet.

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  22. OneTrack (2,742 comments) says:

    Pete – “A strong opposition party should be far closer to National, which would reduce their support.”

    Yes, but all we have are a bunch of numpties who only know how to whine about a glass of milk. Labour have nothing and are scratching at straws, like Oravida.

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  23. kowtow (7,859 comments) says:

    Yes ,but a strong government party shouldn’t be so close to the opposition.

    Homo marriage, parental discipline,race based policies,attacks on private property rights,partial asset sales,massive middle class welfare,an affinity for the Chinese comrades,climate change levies…….

    But then politics is about power and to retain it ,one must surrender ones’ principles and continue to blow taxpayers money in order to continue to blow taxpayers’ money,only not as fast as the other party will blow taxpayers’ money.

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  24. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Kea (10,938 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 9:20 am

    I dare to disagree with your ‘most people’ comment. Whilst most people on politically based blogs such as this one, may not be influenced, and many people with a degree of political awareness or interest, may also be the same, the fact remains that vast majority of the population is not so afflicted.

    In short they will vote (or not vote) on personalities (or lack thereof), on populist issues (who is or isn’t called the biggest liar by the media), and even on who is the best dressed, or who appears the under-dog or the most ‘hard done by’ (KDC).

    Your ideal doesn’t exist – most people are shallow, self-centered and not the least bit influenced by spreadsheets and predictions for things they just don’t understand.

    Like it or not, the outcome of the election, like the last, and many before it, is decided by the swingers – most of whom probably couldn’t even tell you more than the leader and co-leader names of each party.

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  25. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, I was basing my opinion on the Polls. What is yours based on ?

    I don’t know much about swingers let alone their political beliefs :)

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  26. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Kea (10,939 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 9:47 am

    The polls give data without explanation – and they use an varied audience which they usually do not return to seek any ‘swings’ in opinion.

    The two (almost) major parties tend to have (or at least up until Cunnliffe got his bum in the top seat) about a 30% threshold of die hard supporters, that no matter what voted for their chosen party – regardless of who the leader is, or what the policies are. The rest were spread between a couple of minor parties, and the swingers – the swingers in this case being those that will change between National and Labour depending on a variety of things – from likeable leader, strong policies and so on.

    The winner of the election tends to be chosen by who that group swings their support towards. Capture the swingers and you’ve got the top job. I think Key has done his homework on this – which is why he tends to go for policies which are more to the center – thus capturing the unfaithful voters.

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  27. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    See gutless Greg O’Connor interfering in political discussions over Williamson. He best button his slimey left-wing lip as he is not particularly wanted in his position with police . . . they detest the socialist arsehole.

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  28. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, I largely agree with your observations regarding swinging voters. But actual votes do not require explanation or context. National have been remarkably consistent in the Polls and that has reflected what has happened at election time.

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  29. muggins (3,108 comments) says:

    flipper,
    If the High Court were to rule in David Bain’s favour and allow access to those documents all that is going to prove is that the international jurist’s decision has even more holes in it than was first thought.
    He got it completely wrong, flip old bean. As Michael Guest has said, Binnie was guilty of tunnel vision.
    I wonder how much this is costing David Bain or whoever it is who is paying for it.
    I mean $500000 for that defamation claim with very little chance of any return and possibly another $100000 or more for that judicial review.
    The mind boggles.

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  30. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    igm, Greg O’Connor the Police Union guy ?

    I have always considered him an authoritarian type and wondered why a union rep has anything at all to say about law and order. He should restrict himself to Union business. He is however a strong advocate for the Police and that is his job.

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  31. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ muggins (2,923 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 10:01 am

    You don’t have much understanding of what the judicial review is about, do you?

    As for the very much officially discredited Michael Guest – well old fart, if he’s the best you’ve got, boy are you in trouble!!

    Also note your attempt to tie the finances of Karam to those of Bain’s. You do realise that defamation can occur by implication, you don’t have to actually name the person to whom you are applying the defamatory statement too? Something you might want to consider in future statements regarding other people’s finances.

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  32. xy (164 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/the-rebuild/10003855/EPIC-pulls-out-over-innovation-precinct-saga

    ‘One of the things that was of concern to Christchurch immediately after the earthquake was the potential value of CBD land.’

    So this is a clear statement that all the forcibly buying up land from small parties was in fact to prop up the value of the land for other parties. Fucking appalling.

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  33. Northland Wahine (655 comments) says:

    @Pete George…

    Good on Kelvin Davis saying that sexual abuse has nothing to do with colonisation and that Maori need to question cultural practices and the hypocrisy on Maoridom by staying silent.

    I hope he doesn’t bow down to Labours PC bullshit.

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  34. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine – yes, just watched Kelvin on Marae TV, I think he’s on the right track at the moment, but as you say the test will be if he doesn’t get swamped by ‘Labour’s PC bullshit.

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  35. Viking2 (11,216 comments) says:

    So John Banks is losing then.
    No other explanation for it.(apart from the Crown wanting stuff they don’t already know.)

    John Banks’s defence team is seeking information on Kim Dotcom’s criminal past so they can test his credibility as one of the “key witnesses” in Banks’s up-coming prosecution.

    Banks, an MP and the former ACT leader, will stand trial next month on a charge of “transmitting a return of electoral expenses knowing that it is false in a material particular”.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10005879/Banks-seeks-to-discredit-Dotcom-testimony

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  36. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    I agree that sexual abuse as a specific problem has little to do with colonisation. However only a fool would deny that the overall position of Maori in socioeconomic terms has nothing to do with the experience of being colonised.

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  37. Don the Kiwi (1,633 comments) says:

    Denis Prager describes very succinctly, the Arab-Israel problem.

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html#.U2VuSvmSzy0

    Maybe Kea and Reid should watch and learn – but I suspect not, and the “JOOOOS” will still be blamed for every wrong in the world.

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  38. muggins (3,108 comments) says:

    Judith,
    David Bain is wasting his time and someones money re that judicial review. No matter what the outcome he will still have to be interviewed again should he still wish to claim compensation and this time it will be by someone not subject to tunnel vision.
    As for Michael Guest , he was not officially discredited when he was David Bain’s lawyer. Are you trying to say that because he was struck off a few years later that means he is lying when he said David Bain had told him he was wearing his mother’s glasses on the Sunday evening of 19 June 1994? Are you forgetting that Bain’s co-counsel was witness to that admission as well. Try discrediting her, why don’t you?
    And while you are at it have a go at discrediting David’s aunt who said that David had told her he had been wearing his mother’s glasses while his were in being repaired. And you might like to try and discredit her daughter as well , seeing as she was a witness to that conversation.
    Even Binnie accepts Bain was probably wearing the glasses in evidence, he just couldn’t link them to the murder of Stephen, despite the fact that there was a photo showing a lens from those glasses in Stephen’s room while his body was still there.
    Judith,you should have realised by now that calling me an old fart and trying to threaten me in an attempt to shut me up isn’t going to work. Hasn’t worked in the past and won’t in the future.

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  39. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    Sure mikenmild, it’s not “has nothing to do” but it’s a lot more complex than being to do with ‘being colonised’. And they are all a mix of colonised and coloniser.

    It’s necessary to look at the problems as they are now and not dwell too much on what happened 100-200 years ago. We can learn something from it but have to deal with what we have now under modern criteria.

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  40. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    I’m curious about the folks who have very firm beliefs about the David Bain case one way or another. Curious, because it is impossible to know, one way or another and there is so little evidence that it seems having a firm opinion is pointless. The only person who does know is Bain himself.

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  41. tom hunter (4,532 comments) says:

    A strange, wistful, yet terrible story this morning in The Dailybeast.com about US soldiers returning to wars in the Middle East, not as mercenaries but as journalists or photographers – or anything that will take them back:

    I ask Vince why he’s settled in Istanbul. He talks a bit about his job, the parts of the city he likes, the parts of other cities he doesn’t like. But in the end he settles on: “To be close to it.”

    If I were to describe it, I’d say it’s an experience so large that you shrink to insignificance in its presence. And that’s how you get lost in it.

    It’s the same it many of us need to be close to.

    This isn’t a cause, although it can be. This isn’t a particular war, but it’s often that too. If I were to describe it, I’d say it’s an experience so large that you shrink to insignificance in its presence. And that’s how you get lost in it.

    When Austin Tice was kidnapped, he was about as close as you can get to it.

    This seems strange to me as a civilian, and it might seem strange to veterans I have known who had no desire to ever again leave the peaceful green land of New Zealand. But those were different wars and a different age, and perhaps what these men are experiencing is not so different from history after all:

    When Odysseus journeyed back from Troy, his men tied him to the mast of his ship when the Sirens tempted him to leave it. The goddess Circe warned Odysseus about these sea nymphs:

    … whoever comes their way. Whoever draws too close,
    off guard, and catches the Sirens’ voices in the air—
    no sailing home for him, no wife rising to meet him,
    no happy children beaming up at their father’s face.
    The high, thrilling song of the Sirens will transfix him.

    Odysseus ordered his men to stuff their ears with beeswax as they rowed by. He didn’t, though. He wanted to hear the Sirens.

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  42. MT_Tinman (3,033 comments) says:

    Judith (5,784 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 9:44 am

    In short they will vote (or not vote) on personalities (or lack thereof), on populist issues (who is or isn’t called the biggest liar by the media), and even on who is the best dressed, or who appears the under-dog or the most ‘hard done by’ (KDC).

    Hogwash!

    The vast majority will vote the way they always have, a large number of younger voters will vote for the current party-of-the-month, the racists will vote racist because the candidates have the same coloured skin as themselves and idiots will vote for the greens not realising – and not wanting to realise – the damage the greens will cause should they ever hold sway.

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  43. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    only a fool would deny that the overall position of Maori in socioeconomic terms has nothing to do with the experience of being colonised.

    Agreed.

    Maori today are vastly wealthier than they would ever have been without colonisation by the British.

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  44. muggins (3,108 comments) says:

    Shawn,
    While I agree that no-one can be 100% sure that David Bain murdered his family let me assure you that he definitely lied on oath about the glasses in evidence. Those glasses were a very important piece of evidence. He was wearing them on the Sunday evening yet 12 hours later they were found in his room with a damaged frame and no lenses in them . One lens was with the glasses and the other lens was in his murdered brother’s room.
    You say there was so little evidence. Obviously you know very little about the case. There was quite a lot of evidence that pointed to David Bain as being the perpetrator and virtually none that pointed to his father.

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  45. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Maori today are vastly wealthier than they would ever have been without colonisation by the British.”

    We have a nomination for ‘the most stupid comment of the day in a general debate thread’

    Let’s see if anyone can surpass that little doozy :)

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  46. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    muggins,

    if it is that clear cut then why was he released? I do know quite a bit about the case, and have heard about the glasses. But the reality is that there is very little hard evidence one way or another.

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  47. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    However only a fool would deny that the overall position of Maori in socioeconomic terms has nothing to do with the experience of being colonised.

    milky, yes indeed. I agree with you 100% on this one.

    Maori today have a standard of living and life expectancy their ancestors could not even dream of. In fact even the white “colonists” could not have dreamed of such an easy life.

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  48. big bruv (13,452 comments) says:

    ShawnLH

    “We have a nomination for ‘the most stupid comment of the day in a general debate thread’

    Let’s see if anyone can surpass that little doozy”

    I dunno Shaun, you normally win that title easily. BTW, I fail to see what is wrong with that comment, it is indeed a statement of fact.

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  49. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Kea and wat
    You misunderstand the point: probably deliberately. Maori, in common with other colonised peoples around the world, are grossly over represented in negative social statistics. It is rational to postulate that the experience of colonisation has played some part in this. Alternative explanations?

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  50. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Kea, your assuming that materialism is the only form of wealth, and the only way to measure what is or is not a good life. That is, to put it mildly, extremely superficial.

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  51. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “I dunno Shaun, you normally win that title easily.”

    Only in your “mind” bb.

    “BTW, I fail to see what is wrong with that comment, it is indeed a statement of fact.”

    The truthful part of that sentence is “I fail to see.”

    Yes, you do.

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  52. stigie (965 comments) says:

    “Why does Cunliffe’s secret trust and its issues not receive the same hammering as Oradiva?”

    Its been said time and time again….”Its different when Liabore do it”.

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  53. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    http://www.gtr5.com/

    On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

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  54. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Maybe because the issues with Cunliffe’s trust have been resolved – he admitted a mistake and the money was repaid to donors – while there are still unanswered questions about Collins’s actions.

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  55. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Kea, your assuming that materialism is the only form of wealth, and the only way to measure what is or is not a good life. That is, to put it mildly, extremely superficial.

    ShawnLH, I made no reference at all to material wealth. I referred to the standard of living and life expectancy. You did however refer to materialism.

    milky, so why do we not see Maori heading off into the bush to return to the Stone Age ? When you refer to colonised people you really mean “brown people” don’t you ? No country has been colonised more than the Brits. Are native Brits “over represented” in the negative social statistics ? What about the colonised Germanic and Northern Europeans ?

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  56. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Mike, there are still unanswered questions about Cunliffe’s trust. We still don’t know who his secret backers were, and until then there is good reason to be suspicious about who the tail was trying to wag the dog.

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  57. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Ugly
    And the significance of that incident to day is?”

    The Joooos are EVIL!!!!! :)

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  58. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, I made no reference at all to material wealth. I referred to the standard of living and life expectancy.”

    Think about that sentence for a while Kea.

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  59. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Kea
    Why should Maori return to the stone age? I’m really unsure what you mean by that comment, it’s quite random even for you. The Britich experience of colonisation was one thousand years ago. Will it take huindreds of years for Maori to ‘catch up’ with their colonisers?

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  60. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    mikenmild,

    Maori today are far wealthier than they could ever have been if their ancestors had not been colonised.

    Period.

    It is similar to the point that American blacks are vastly wealthier than they would have been had their ancestors not be taken across the Atlantic as slaves.

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  61. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    The Joooos are EVIL!!!!!

    “The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies.” ~ Zionist founder Theodor Herzl
    http://www.truetorahjews.org/herzl

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  62. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Conquest and colonisation has done more to spread knowledge and wealth around the world than any other human endeavor. It is a sad fact, but that is our history. How does ShawnLH suppose a cult from the Middle Eastern Desert thousands of years ago became so popular in the West today ? It was imposed on people “colonised” by their Roman rulers. The native Brits were in fact Pagans.

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  63. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Northern Europe has not been colonised for a very, very long time, while Maori and other similar peoples were colonised fairly recently.

    If you went back to the first hundred years after the Norman invasion, you would indeed find similar problems with the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic peoples.

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  64. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Israel’s plan was to bomb Western targets, make it seem as though Egypt was behind the attacks.

    Code-named Operation Susannah, the incident led to the dismissal of Binyamin Gibli, the MI chief at the time, and the resignations of then-defense minister Pinhas Lavon and ultimately, the prime minister, David Ben-Gurion. In the years after the incident came to light, public debate centered around the question of who gave the order for the operation to go forward.

    The educational presentation, which met with harsh criticism when it was distributed to the MI units in September, states that although at least six external committees investigated the incident, the mistakes had never before been investigated and analyzed within MI, the institution responsible for the operation.

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/mi-figures-out-what-went-wrong-in-lavon-affair-55-years-later-1.4385

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  65. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Conquest and colonisation has done more to spread knowledge and wealth around the world than any other human endeavor. It is a sad fact, but that is our history.”

    That doesn’t make it right.

    “How does ShawnLH suppose a cult from the Middle Eastern Desert thousands of years ago became so popular in the West today ? It was imposed on people “colonised” by their Roman rulers. The native Brits were in fact Pagans.”

    Badly wrong on that one. Britain and large parts of Northern Europe were converted by indigenous Celtic missionaries. Christianity was not imposed by the Roman Empire.

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  66. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    UglyNazi, give it a rest for today. You can promote Hitler’s vision another time.

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  67. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    It is similar to the point that American blacks are vastly wealthier than they would have been had their ancestors not be taken across the Atlantic as slaves.

    Wat, well maybe not wealthier than the black slave traders who sold them.

    The Europeans were new customers in a centuries old slave trade in the region. But the Whites ruined it all, after a short time, by coming up with the novel idea slavery was wrong. A totally foreign concept in Africa at the time and culturally insensitive. Slavery is common in Africa even today.

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  68. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Maori today are far wealthier than they could ever have been if their ancestors had not been colonised.”

    Define wealth in an objective way.

    You can’t. What is wealth to one person may be poverty to another.

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  69. stigie (965 comments) says:

    “while there are still unanswered questions about Collins’s actions.”

    What actions ? I think everything has been laid out on the table, Labour are desperate for some mud to stick,

    the same as they tried to do in 2008 and 2011. How did that work out for them ?

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  70. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    UglyNazi, give it a rest for today. You can promote Hitler’s vision another time.

    I worked in Gaza Hospital in Sabra Shatilla during the massacre trying to save the lives of a few dozen people, but outside the hospital hundreds were killed. My patients and I knew that Sharon and his officers were in control, and without them the massacre would not be possible. The residents of Sabra Shatilla could at least have escaped. Now more than 30 years later, we know that the killers were brought in by Israeli armoured cars and tanks, obeyed Israeli commands, their paths lit by Israeli military flares, and some of them also wore Israeli uniforms. The mutilated bodies of the victims were thrown into mass graves by Israeli bulldozers.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ariel-sharon-and-the-horrors-of-the-sabra-and-shatilla-massacre/5364681

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  71. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Define wealth in an objective way.

    You can’t. What is wealth to one person may be poverty to another.

    LOL :)

    ShawnLH, You made the claim they are not wealthier. So you explain what you mean ?

    Kea
    Why should Maori return to the stone age? I’m really unsure what you mean by that comment, it’s quite random even for you.

    milky, You claimed things were better for Maori in the Stone Age. I simply remarked on the fact Maori clearly do not agree with you as none are returning to this imaginary golden age you speak so highly of.

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  72. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Ugly
    Is there a theme to this morning’s recital of various Israeli misdeeds?

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  73. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    The Hebron massacre refers to the killing of sixty-seven Jews (including 23 college students) on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of Mandatory Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by false rumors that Jews were massacring Arabs in Jerusalem and seizing control of Muslim holy places.[1] The event also left scores seriously wounded or maimed. Jewish homes were pillaged and synagogues were ransacked. Many of the 435 Jews who survived were hidden by local Arab families.[2][3] Soon after, all Hebron’s Jews were evacuated by the British authorities. Many returned in 1931, but almost all were evacuated at the outbreak of the 1936–39 Arab revolt in Palestine. The massacre formed part of the 1929 Palestine riots, in which a total of 133 Jews and 110 Arabs were killed, and brought the centuries-old Jewish presence in Hebron to an end.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

    Anti-Jewish Violence in Pre-State Palestine/1929 Massacres

    Arab violence against Jews is often alleged to have begun with the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 or as a result of Israel’s capture in 1967 of territories occupied by Jordan. But even before the Mandate for Palestine was assigned to Great Britain by the Allies at the San Remo Conference (April 1920) and endorsed by the League of Nations (July 1922), Palestinian Arabs were carrying out organized attacks against Jewish communities in Palestine. Systematic violence began in early 1920 with murderous assaults by groups of local Arabs against settlements in the north and by Muslim pilgrims against Jerusalem’s Jews. Again in 1921, Arab rioters attacked Jews in Jaffa and its environs. The primary agitator behind these attacks was Haj Amin al Husseini, who marshalled Arab discontent over Jewish immigration into violent riots.

    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1691

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  74. minus (147 comments) says:

    To me, I’m at a complete loss.” – Ross Robertson on approaching Judith Collins when she was Police Minister.

    She says Ross Robertson approached her when she was Police Minister, about an employment matter involving his daughter.
    Mr Robertson says he can’t remember having a conversation with the Minister, and it’s not how he works.
    “Certainly not with the inference that’s been drawn with what the minister’s saying.
    “To me, I’m at a complete loss.”
    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbpol/1889131477-robertson-mystified-over-maurice-williamson-affair

    09/11/2011
    Lisa Robertson has shifted her Olympic compass from Rio de Janeiro to London after the jockey/athlete exceeded all expectations on her marathon debut last month.
    The 28-year-old Aucklander took up competitive running only three years ago after blitzing the police fitness test as a budding cop.
    Since then she has changed careers, recording four wins from 48 rides as an apprentice jockey, and her star within Athletics New Zealand is on the rise.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/5931149/Runner-Lisa-Robertson-eyes-London-Olympics

    Might help “jog” Robertson’s memory :-)

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  75. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    UglyNazi, give it a rest for today. You can promote Hitler’s vision another time.

    I would get banned for that, but moving on…

    ShawnLH, so anyone who points out the truth about the USS Liberty being attacked by Israel, a fact Israel admits, is a Nazi promoting Hitlers vision ?

    Wow :)

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  76. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, You made the claim they are not wealthier. So you explain what you mean ?”

    Your a libertarian yes? Do you understand the Austrian School theory of subjective value?

    I’ll give an example. A father’s daughter dies, how is not important, but the only thing he has left of her is her favourite necklace. A guy comes along and offers the father one hundred thousand dollars for the necklace, and the father says no, because the value of the necklace to him outweighs the the value of the money.

    What was lost to indigenous peoples likely outweighs issues of living standards and longevity.

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  77. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Is there a theme to this morning’s recital of various Israeli misdeeds?

    These were not isolated incidents or aberrations, they represent the true nature of the Zionist state.

    But not all of the eye-witnesses to the 9-11 slaughter were so saddened. On September 11, five Israeli army veterans were arrested by the FBI after several witnesses saw them “dancing”, “high-fiving”, and “celebrating” as they took pictures of the World Trade Center disaster from across the river in New Jersey. Steven Gordon was the lawyer who volunteered to represent the five Israelis. He was asked by a Hebrew newspaper why the five men were being detained by the FBI. Here’s what Gordon told Yediot America:

    “On the day of the disaster, three of the five boys went up on the roof of the building where the company office is located,” said Gordon. “I’m not sure if they saw the twin towers collapse, but, in any event, they photographed the ruins right afterwards. One of the neighbors who saw them called the police and claimed they were posing, dancing and laughing, against the background of the burning towers….
    http://www.apfn.org/apfn/wtc_stf.htm

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  78. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “Ugly
    Is there a theme to this morning’s recital of various Israeli misdeeds?”

    milky, Ugly
    Is there a theme to this morning’s recital of various Israeli Muslim/white people/Labour/Christian/National Party Ministers misdeeds?

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  79. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, so anyone who points out the truth about the USS Liberty being attacked by Israel, a fact Israel admits, is a Nazi promoting Hitlers vision ?”

    Kea, I base my accusation on much more than that. It’s about the total evidence based on many, many statements made by Ugly over the last weeks, including promoting the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ a hideous anti-Jewish screed that’s a favourite with neo-Nazi types.

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  80. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    ShawnLH,

    Give it up, mate.

    You made a stupid comment and are now digging yourself ever deeper by making out that you were actually talking about non-material issues such as a person’s ability to commune with nature.

    As for wealth, it is a person’s ability to consume goods and services.

    And with the necklace thing you are confusing wealth and prices.

    I’d shut up if I were you.

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  81. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “I’ll give an example.”

    ShawnLH, no you made up a story based on the fantasy of the Noble Savage. Very condescending.

    Give a proper example please. I think you may have a point you are trying to make.

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  82. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Wat, in fact Iv’e exposed your subjective notion of “wealth” and your assumption that what you consider “wealth” is universally accepted.

    “As for wealth, it is a person’s ability to consume goods and services.”

    According to you. But that’s just your soulless opinion based on a materialist world view. Most people would not agree.

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  83. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, yeah but UglyTruth is like that generally. He does not single out Jews. He believes in all sorts of conspiracies. We are all guilty of something in Ugly’s eyes. Bless him ;)

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  84. Scott Chris (5,946 comments) says:

    Hmm well I see some merit in Labour’s proposed Reserve Bank Tool. Seems quite a good mechanism to control the money supply provided its scope is broad enough.

    Problem with Labour is they have one or two good ideas but to appease their constituents they end up watering them down to the extent that they lose their effectiveness. (such as their Capital Gains Tax proposal)

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  85. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH, no you made up a story based on the fantasy of the Noble Savage. Very condescending.”

    I’m being condescending to myself? I’m half Native American.

    The example speaks for itself. “Wealth” is subjective.

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  86. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, is the purpose of your posts to show the “true” nature of the State of Israel and then, by the reference to the 5 Israelis in the USA on 9/11, infer something about its citizens?

    This merely describes what you are doing, not your purpose for doing it.

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  87. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    A comment at Dim-Post by Sanctuary (ironically on “Uninformed theory of the day”):

    At least Danyl is honest about his latent bias. That is his right cos this is his blog, just as it my right to sometimes you can lose my temper about it and get all surly and truculent (as I have been known on extremely rare occasions to do). But you can’t say he is a dishonest trader. And that is good – no one minds honest opinion with a disclaimer. Dishonest concerned trolls and propagandists like David Farrar is what I can’t stomach.

    http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/uninformed-theory-of-the-day/#comment-106517

    DPF’s disclosure: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/disclosure_statement

    Danyl’s disclosure:

    I’ve never seen any About or any disclosure of any type on Dim-Post apart from sometimes Danyl mentions things in posts and comments but most people will easily miss those.

    DPF is open and clear about Kiwiblog moderation and bans.

    There’s now way of knowing what Dim-Post moderation or banning policies are. All I know is that I’ve had comments disappear into a moderation black hole, and I’ve been banned, with no notification whatsoever.

    Sanctuary couldn’t be much more wrong with his claim. Does anyone want to tell him at Dim-Post? I won’t even try on principle.

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  88. itstricky (1,681 comments) says:

    mikenmild,

    Maori today are far wealthier than they could ever have been if their ancestors had not been colonised.

    Period.

    The difference between “then” and “now” is not what is under debate. The difference between Maori and “non-Maori” *today* is what is under debate. You imply everyone “should be” the same, but, of course, they aren’t – so why not stick to the topic and describe the reasons why?

    Your opinion here seems to be “They were thrown a bone; suck it up” – classy as ever (and irrelevant)

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  89. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    PG, I think DPF has a very light hand with moderation and I respect him for that hugely. It is what makes this such an interesting place. And I say that as someone who has challenged him directly regarding his personal bias :)

    I would not last past my first comment on a lefty blog.

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  90. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Yes itstricky, it’s difficult to make statements about the situation of Maori today without some reference to the fact of, the impact of, the colonial past (and present).

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  91. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “Your opinion here seems to be “They were thrown a bone; suck it up””

    That’s a good summation of wat’s argument.

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  92. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    I find these attacks on DPF offensive. David runs a blog that is generally pro-National, and he does not hide that fact. The general debate thread allows far more freedom of speech than any lefty blog I know of.

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  93. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    .. including promoting the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ a hideous anti-Jewish screed that’s a favourite with neo-Nazi types.

    I’ve made it perfectly clear that the problem is political Zionism, not Judaism. Anti-semitism as an instrument of Zionist policy is advanced whenever the distinction between Jews and Zionists is ignored.

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  94. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I’ve had comments disappear into a moderation black hole, and I’ve been banned, with no notification whatsoever.

    They even banned someone as tepid as PG ! :)

    What on earth did he say ?

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  95. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ugly, you should attempt to explain the difference between:

    1. Israel

    2. Jews

    3. Judaism

    4. Zionism

    Good luck !

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  96. itstricky (1,681 comments) says:

    “As for wealth, it is a person’s ability to consume goods and services.”

    According to you. But that’s just your soulless opinion based on a materialist world view. Most people would not agree.

    Shawn – quite right. Seems like ‘wat’ is showing who he is. Kea had a better statement originally -: “a better standard of living”

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  97. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Ugly
    You are not going to go on about the difference between bad Jews (zionists) and good Jews (examples nonexistent) again are you?

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  98. stephieboy (2,449 comments) says:

    Birdbrain, yes Pat Condell is an atheist and I don’t agree with him on thato.Quite simple really but I do think he’s spot on about Israel and the manifestations of Militant Islamic Jihadism with their totally unreasonable demands, and incitement to violence.

    UT , haven’t I already told you that false flag strategy and attacks are part o military f history going back to the Roman Empire and likely beyond..More recent examples are The Mukden incident ( pretext for the Japs to invade China) ,Operation Himmler ( Nazi pretext to invade Poland ), the Soviets devised one to invade Finland ( 1939 ) .It was thought the apartment bombings in 1999 was a false flag operation for a Russian pretext to invade Checnya but the evidence is conflicting.
    Nothing new there bur it’s utterly ludicrously implausible to say 9/11 , Sandy Nook and the Boston Bombings were false flags.More the deluded thinking and paranoia of Conpiracy theory.
    BTW Opetation Northwards was made fully available to the public , both in published form and online much before the 9/11 attacks.. Hardly the actions of a government trying to conceal a blueprint for a false flag attack or shall we call it a NWO cock up.?

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  99. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    ShawnLH,

    Desperate stuff, mate.

    There is never any question that utility varies from person to person. That’s one of the beauties of the free market: it allows for everyone to put their own value on things.

    Even if it weren’t patently obvious that the discussion is purely about the standard of living, you are patronisingly suggesting – in the face of all the evidence – that Maori favour the traditional stone-age lifestyle over housing, healthcare, education, travel, Sony Playstations and all the rest.

    You’re suggesting that a Maori with all those things plus a car is no wealthier than one with just a straw hut to his name.

    And all to try to win a debate .

    Sheesh.

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  100. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, is the problem with their political nationalism that

    1. they are Jews

    a you don’t think Jews should have a political nationalism
    b their nationalism should be purely religious

    2. the territory of the peoples nationalism is contested by another people

    a so one party should give up
    b the conflict is the fault of one party

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  101. minus (147 comments) says:

    Update
    Collins said Robertson asked for advice about leave entitlements for his daughter Lisa, then a police officer and aspiring Olympic runner, who wanted more time for training.
    Collins, who was Police Minister at the time, said she then asked police officers visiting her office what Lisa Robertson should do. Officers responded by telling her the information was available online — a fact she passed on to Robertson.  

    ________

    Maybe John Banks can have a spectacular miracle memory return too.
    John apparently complimented Dotcom’s wife Mona, saying she was the most beautiful women he had ever meet, in front of Mrs Banks.
    If john still can’t remember, I am sure Mrs Banks can. :-)
    She could remind him.

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  102. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    No one here is trying to suggest that Maori generally are not materially better off than their ancestors of two hundred years ago. I wonder though whether the gap between Maori and non-Maori hasn’t actually widened over that time. It’s quite possible that in relative terms with non-Maori NZers, Maori are worse off than 200 years ago.

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  103. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    wat,

    “Desperate stuff, mate.”

    Not really. Pretty obvious “stuff” to most people.

    Your failure in this debate is suggesting that colonisation was a good thing, because Maori now have lot’s of toys to play with.

    Now THAT is desperate! :)

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  104. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    No surprise that once Genesis Power company was privatized they added new fees you have to pay when you pay your bill.
    “From 1 June 2014 ….. all debit and credit card payments made online or over the phone will incur a 0.7% fee…… payments over the counter will cost a $1.20 fee”
    this info came with my latest bill. The government keep saying there would be no extra cost to customers due to privatization. Lies, big lies.

    Expect it from all retailers soon. When the bank charges the retailer for visa plus a pay wave transaction they won’t be able to absorb the costs anymore. It’s the greedy banks fault!

    A banker PM knows how to help the banks profit.

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  105. Tauhei Notts (1,633 comments) says:

    Manchester United 0 Sunderland 1.
    I think it was 1968 when Sunderland last won at Old Trafford.
    Heartiest congratulations.
    Thumbs down to Radio Sport who reported the result Sunderland 1 Manchester United 0. Dickheads!

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  106. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    itstricky,

    The difference between “then” and “now” is not what is under debate. The difference between Maori and “non-Maori” *today* is what is under debate.

    That’s incorrect. What began this particular theme was the following comment:

    ‘only a fool would deny that the overall position of Maori in socioeconomic terms has nothing to do with the experience of being colonised.’

    The debate is about whether today’s Maori are wealthier in absolute terms than they would have been in the absence of colonisation. It is not about their relative position compared to other ethnicities.

    And ‘in socioeconomic terms’ there is no question that today’s Maori are vastly wealthier than would have been the case absent colonisation.

    If you wish to argue that Maori, on average, occupy lower deciles then that’s a different debate, and I doubt anyone would disagree.

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  107. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    ShawnLH,

    Your failure in this debate is suggesting that colonisation was a good thing, because Maori now have lot’s of toys to play with.

    By ‘lots of toys’ you mean access to healthcare, education, housing and so on.

    The fact that you try to dismiss these as mere nothings rather concedes my point.

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  108. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, is the purpose of your posts to show the “true” nature of the State of Israel and then, by the reference to the 5 Israelis in the USA on 9/11, infer something about its citizens?

    My purpose is to illustrate how the Zionist state of Israel is fundamentally evil. The citizens of such a state share in the guilt and inevitable punishment of the state by their allegiance to that evil.

    The cause of Zionism was advanced by the “Palestinian Mandate”, a fiction which does not affect the real inheritance of of people of Abrahamic descent, both Jewish and Muslim. The Oded Yinon Plan describes how all of the promised land is targeted by the Zionists for acquisition into their state.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/greater-israel-the-zionist-plan-for-the-middle-east/5324815

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  109. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Israel is a country and political system. Not a race or a religion. Being critical of it is not “anti semetic” and does not mean you are a Nazi promoting Hitlers agenda (get it ShawnLH?)

    In fact Israel did not even exist in Hitlers time, though if it did, I believe Hitler would have been a supporter of establishing lsrael as he believed in separation of the races/cultures. He could have his master race in Germany and Zionists could have theirs for gods chosen.

    The idea that Zionists, Israel and Jews are all the same thing is total rubbish. Many Jews do not even support Israel and are harshly critical of it. Opinion polls among Jews show the average Jewish person often does not support the AIPAC stance, particularly their lust for war. Many Jews are only Jews culturally and are atheists.

    Zionism is not a religion or a country. It is something else again.

    So crying Nazi anti semite when any of those groups is criticized is just nonsense.

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  110. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    “you mean access to healthcare, education, housing and so on.”

    Maori had all three of those prior to colonisation. So did most Native peoples.

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  111. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    wat
    ‘The debate is about whether today’s Maori are wealthier in absolute terms than they would have been in the absence of colonisation. It is not about their relative position compared to other ethnicities.’
    It no doubt makes the debate easier for you if you get to say what is being debated. In fact, the debate is all about the relative position of Maori versus non-Maori.

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  112. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, do you await the conquest of the state of Israel and see it leading to the real inheritance of the people of Abraham descent both Jewish and Moslem?

    What would be required for there to be “real inheritance”?

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  113. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    milky, Pacific Island people are – over represented- in negative social statistics, competing with Maori for state funded resources and welfare.

    Yet amazingly they leave their tropical paradise to come here in their thousands.

    Given how awful you claim this colonial hell hole is and given they have similar outcomes to Maori, why do so many PI’s come to NZ ? It does not make sense if one accepts your position, though it makes perfect sense if one rejects it.

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  114. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    The problem with wat’s argument is the claim that colonisation was good, because it supposedly bought benefits to Maori. The problem with this is the assumption that the supposed benefits outweigh the negatives.

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  115. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    mikenmild,

    Just to remind you, it was your own comment which started the debate:

    only a fool would deny that the overall position of Maori in socioeconomic terms has nothing to do with the experience of being colonised.

    I merely pointed out that the socioeconomic benefits for today’s Maori were hugely positive.

    Now, if you wish to make an entirely different point, concerning the relative position of Maori, then knock yourself out.

    Perhaps that’s the point you originally intended to make, but simply phrased it badly? I don’t know.

    Either way, the point remains that Maori, even in the lowest decile, are enormously wealthier than they would have been without British colonisation.

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  116. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (2,265 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 12:22 pm
    “you mean access to healthcare, education, housing and so on.”

    Maori had all three of those prior to colonisation. So did most Native peoples.

    Great. We can stop the hand-outs and let them sort it out themselves, instead of imposing our colonist ways on their bountiful stone age culture.

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  117. Northland Wahine (655 comments) says:

    Since colonisation, I believe Maori have benefited with modernisation. We live longer, have more material things, are better educated than we were pre colonisation.

    However, I don’t believe at any time since colonisation, have Maori been on an equal footing as those who colonised. Originally we were an oppressed people. Those who deny this are merely kidding themselves. Injustices were committed. The mission Maori must now be to work towards solving the imbalances and take ownership.

    Take responsibility for our high prison numbers, low education standards, violence towards our loved ones and our wider community. Stop placing blame and find bloody solutions. And these have to come from within. Because Pakeha assistance thus far, hasn’t reaped positive long term rewards.

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  118. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    @Kea

    1. Israel: Originally the name given to Isaac and his descendants. Later these people split into two groups, the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Can also refers to the Zionist state of Israel.

    2. Jews: A name for the house of Judah or for people who are culturally Jewish.

    3. Judaism: A religion based on the Mosaic covenant. Rabbinical Judaism refers to the Talmud, but Karaite Judaism rejects the Talmud.

    4. Zionism: a political movement founded by Theodor Herzl and supported by the west which resulted in the terrorist state of Israel.

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  119. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    ShawnLH,

    Maori had [healthcare, education, housing] prior to colonisation. So did most Native peoples.

    You are descending into farce now, Shawn.

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  120. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, was Isaac given the name Israel?

    Is Zionism not also a concept understood within Judaism?

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  121. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    The problem with wat’s argument is the claim that colonisation was good, because it supposedly bought benefits to Maori.

    It did bring benefits and it is good. The Maori chose those benefits, even though what was offered [at the time] was meager compared to the luxury and prosperity enjoyed by modern Maori today.

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  122. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    wat
    But my original point was directed at the relative postiion of Maori. You chose to interpret it in a way that you could claim a point about absolute welfare.
    Northland Wahine is more on the money. Acknowledge the causes; look for solutions.

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  123. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Northland,

    Since colonisation, I believe Maori have benefited with modernisation. We live longer, have more material things, are better educated than we were pre colonisation.

    Exactly so.

    And to be clear, this has nothing to do with the nature of the people. The reasons are entirely geographical (the sort of things discussed in the well-known ‘Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies’.)

    New Zealand is simply too remote and too small to have ever developed on its own.

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  124. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Kea,

    there is good evidence that Maori were in fact quite wealthy prior to colonisation. The repeated phrase “stone age culture” is misleading.

    The “hand outs” are a necessary step in reparations for the invasion. colonisation, and large scale theft of Maori land.

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  125. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    mikenmild (8,988 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 12:12 pm

    There is no debate, maori are better off, there are hiccups but this will change as the country gets older and the genes mixes. The population numbers have increased a thousand fold since colonization. This is ancient history and there cannot be any other out come but cultural merging and a new group of peoples will emerge.

    There is a hold over from the last century which will disappear as this century passes. The euro empire meme, then we will see a new planetary system without centers.

    Hey, can anyone tell me when engineering was born?

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  126. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine – I agree. And on violence that’s what Kelvin is doing, taking responsibility and looking for solutions. Not blaming, but causes of the entrenched problems have to be identified and talked about and dealt with.

    It’s a major problem in Maoridom and most of the solutions need to be looked for from within, but it’s also a society wide problem. The Williamson/Liu issue is due to violence within an Asian family, there are also major entrenched problems with violence in Pakeha and other ethnicities.

    So I hope others can take advantage of Kelvin’s initiative and push for improvements on a wider scale.

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  127. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “Is Zionism a concept understood within Judaism?”

    SPC, he answered that and I hinted at it.

    Zionism is a political movement. Judaism is a religion. Zionists did in fact establish Israel. I used to think that was conspiracy theory myself, but its just a fact. I used to think the very term “zionist” was simply a anti Jewish falsehood. All this is freely available information from respectable sources. It is not denied by Jews. It is mainstream historical fact.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Zionism_and_the_British_mandate

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  128. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (2,267 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 12:38 pm
    Kea,

    there is good evidence that Maori were in fact quite wealthy prior to colonisation. The repeated phrase “stone age culture” is misleading.

    The “hand outs” are a necessary step in reparations for the invasion. colonisation, and large scale theft of Maori land.

    Largely led by missionaries who totally destroyed their spiritual beliefs and customs along with it.

    Just sayin ;)

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  129. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, do you await the conquest of the state of Israel and see it leading to the real inheritance of the people of Abraham descent both Jewish and Moslem?

    Ideally the situation would be resolved by the citizens of the state of Israel repudiating their allegiance and joining with the rightful owners of the land. An attempt at a military solution would most likely result in escalation IMO.

    What would be required for there to be “real inheritance”?

    Abrahamic descent. The inheritance isn’t based on religion or culture, and the house of Israel (i.e. the people of the Assyrian diaspora) have inheritance along with the other descendants of Abraham. The lost tribes of Israel could well be instrumental in achieving a non-violent solution to the problem.

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  130. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    mikemild,

    But my original point was directed at the relative postiion of Maori

    Not according to the sentence you wrote.

    Besides which, the absolute living standard of Maori is ultimately all that counts. In a free market, only the jealous, the envious and the unscrupulous politician concern themselves with relative positions (and let’s face it, traditional Maori society with its strata and slavery was infinately worse in this regard.)

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  131. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Kea, you should leave it to Ugly Truth to answer. The Zionist project that is the state of Israel is not the total sum to Zionism. You are influenced by your atheism to see a separation from religion and politics, and are probably unaware that Zionism is part of the religion.

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  132. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, who are the lost tribes of Israel? And if they are lost to history and to any continuing identity as a people how can they contribute to a non violent solution?

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  133. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Oh wat, perhaps I did not phrase my original statement as clearly as I should: the relative position of Maori today is the inevitable consequence of colonisation. Their absolute level of material wealth today is not really the point.

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  134. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Wat, I note in the book Gun Germs and Steel when dark skinned people colonised areas it is referred to by Diamond as “occupying” or “inhabiting” while identical actions by white people are referred to as “infecting, casually murdering” and other emotive loaded terms.

    His anti European, and developed culture, bias taints an otherwise interesting book.

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  135. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, was Isaac given the name Israel?

    No, my mistake, it was his son:

    And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with Elohim and with men, and hast prevailed.
    Gen 32:28

    Is Zionism not also a concept understood within Judaism?

    Tzyown is described in Judaism, but it is very different to political Zionism. Tzyown is called the city of David, and is associated with Messianism.

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  136. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    SPC, No I do not see the separation you believe I do.

    I am just trying to keep it simple for the likes of ShawnLH the famous Nazi hunter. :)

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  137. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Wat, Yes the Maori did keep slaves and treated them terribly.

    I wonder if ShawnLH thinks we should be more culturally sensitive and start up the slave trade in NZ again ?

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  138. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Why are people still going on about an ancient war? That’s right, it’s ancient and has no more impact on todays peoples as did the battle of waterloo did in the 1930′s.

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  139. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    Heh.

    When the monument is finished, the Baphomet will rest on the block beneath the inverted pentagram. His lap will serve as a seat for children.

    http://www.vice.com/read/heres-the-first-look-at-the-new-satanic-monument-being-built-for-oklahomas-statehouse

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  140. Paulus (2,540 comments) says:

    Would Maori statistics be enhanced and augmented by merging figures for both those called Maori with Pacific Islanders – they both evolved from the same places.
    For example DNA places both to present tribes in SE Taiwan.
    Cook Islanders speak what is called Cook Island Maori.

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  141. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ muggins (2,925 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 10:34 am

    You are a deluded old man, whose best claim to fame was being an office boy in a car yard. For that we accept you don’t really know your arse from your elbow.

    Please refer to the Aunt’s actual testimony which was that she asked David ‘what do you do when your glasses are broken’, of which he answered something like, ‘wear an old pair of my mothers’. He never said which pair, or that he had been wearing them that night, and as the optician had reported they had fixed his glasses before, you nor I, nor anyone else, including the Aunt, who didn’t ask for clarification, has the slightest idea of which time or pair he was referring. What we do know is that the dust on the lenses found in the house, excludes them from having been used, or wiped (to remove DNA evidence) any time on the day of the murders.

    You cannot provide any of your arguments in this case without exaggeration, drawing your inferences from what people say, and adding little extra bits to make your explanation gel. Therefore – anything you have to say is shyte – not worthy of further debate.

    Don’t bother replying to me, because I won’t be answering you again – out of respect for those who really don’t wish to read countless argument and counter-arguments regarding the case. There is only one group of people that need to discuss this case now or have any influence in the outcome, and I doubt any of them are here.

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  142. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Kea, the Zionist project that is the state of Israel is itself going a transformation into a Jewish state

    1. the terminology is designed to coerce Palestinians to accept permanent division of the land (possibly in reaction to growing numbers of Ultra-Orthodox not committed to the state of Israel)
    2. in the religious sense as the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox seek to impose their cultural order on the wider society.
    3. 2 might lead to a new sense of Messianic duty to establish the state of Israel into a theocracy.

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  143. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (2,267 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 12:38 pm

    You are correct, Maori had advanced from what is classified as a ‘stone age’ culture, and were in many cases living in agrarian societies. Of course, this varied from Iwi to Iwi and even hapu to hapu. Seafood was primarily important, but for those that were forced to live further inland, growing vegetables was also a source of nutrition.

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  144. itstricky (1,681 comments) says:

    In a free market, only the jealous, the envious and the unscrupulous politician concern themselves with relative positions

    Wow! You’re a piss take aren’t you? If you’re not, that’s really your answer? I think Shawn was right about you. Me me me me me me me me money money money money me me me me me me me me me me.

    Answer the question wat.

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  145. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    mikemild,

    Their absolute level of material wealth today is not really the point.

    You’d be content if Maori remained untouched living their subsistence lifestyle, but get angry when they have an unimaginably wealthier standard of living which is not quite as wealthy as some other people?

    There is no possible moral argument for such an indefensible position.

    You are telling us that millionaires should be jealous and bitter about billionaires.

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  146. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Look, the Jews have developed a device to tell them which wells they have poisoned and which remain to be done:

    https://d2pq0u4uni88oo.cloudfront.net/projects/905552/video-380583-webm.webm

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  147. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    There is no debate, maori are better off…

    according to whose definition?

    Being ‘better off’ is a subjective statement – what you consider to be ‘better off’ may be very different to how others perceive it.

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  148. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, who are the lost tribes of Israel?

    Hard to say for sure, they seem have become Phoenicians and then populated Western Europe, Britain and North America.

    And if they are lost to history and to any continuing identity as a people how can they contribute to a non violent solution?

    Being lost to history may not be a problem if they can rediscover their identity via the new covenant (of Jeremiah 31).
    If they are aware of their identity the solution most likely lies in the knowledge of the deeper religious context, i.e. their role within the western empire aka the beast of Revelation. In a nutshell, knowledge of the context involves understanding the the relationship between the history of the Abrahamic religions and the source of the trouble of Jacob/Israel, aka the great tribulation of the book of Revelation. The source of the trouble probably involves the relationship between Jacob/Israel and his brother Esau/Edom and the king of Babylon aka “Lucifer”.

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  149. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Judith,

    There is no debate, Maori have a higher standard of living.

    Better?

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  150. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ wat dabney (3,514 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 1:27 pm

    No, not better. Better standard of living according to whose definition, and what right does that person have to decide that definition?

    You see Wat, not everyone thinks living in a state house, collecting a benefit, being unable to have a hangi in the back yard, and as many dogs as you want … is a ‘better standard of living’ to other alternatives.

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder – and all that (just making a point about subjective statements not giving my opinion on the topic).

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  151. Pete George (23,149 comments) says:

    Maori are by some measures better off. But collectively they now own only a fraction of a country they had owned fully.

    And…

    The Māori population also declined steeply. It is estimated to have been barely 100,000 in 1769. By 1840 it was probably between 70,000 and 90,000. At its lowest point in 1896 it was around 42,000.

    http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/death-rates-and-life-expectancy/page-4

    Better off only applies to the Maori and their descendants who survived colonisation.

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  152. Viking2 (11,216 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine (566 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 12:33 pm

    Since colonisation, I believe Maori have benefited with modernisation. We live longer, have more material things, are better educated than we were pre colonisation.
    ========================
    and you no longer eat one another.
    What more could you want.

    Actually there were racist overtones to that as well. didn’t like Pakeha meat cause it was too salty. 8O 8O :(

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  153. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Judith,

    Better standard of living according to whose definition, and what right does that person have to decide that definition?

    Access to better healthcare, better education, better housing, better food. Having a car, a microwave, a TV etc.

    The fact that Maori people have and consume these things rather suggests that they value them just as much as pasty people do.

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  154. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, all the pre European things are still there waiting for Maori to return to the bush and continue their Stone Age culture from where they left off.

    Why do you think they are not taking advantage of this ?

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  155. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Sponsored by Obama:

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  156. Northland Wahine (655 comments) says:

    Viking, not only are you too salty, but also too bitter.

    So rest assured, you want end in up in a hangi in the near future.

    :)

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  157. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Feminists want to ban the word “Bossy”. Reap what you sow:

    Beyonce, Victoria Beckham front campaign to ban the word ‘Bossy’ for female empowerment

    Beyoncé, Victoria Beckham and Jennifer Garner are among the influential female figureheads who have thrown their weight behind a campaign to ban the word “bossy” being used to describe women.

    Run in connection with the Girl Scouts of the USA and Leanin.org, the Ban Bossy campaign aims to promote leadership roles among young girls.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/beyonce-victoria-beckham-front-campaign-to-ban-the-word-bossy-for-female-empowerment-9183787.html

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  158. kowtow (7,859 comments) says:

    Oh look multiculturalism and third world immigration at its best.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10806862/City-fights-new-Trojan-Horse-Islamic-schools-plot.html

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  159. muggins (3,108 comments) says:

    Judith,
    I am bothering to reply to you because once again you are fudging the facts.
    Yes, it is correct to say that when David Bain told his aunt he had been wearing his mother’s glasses while his were in being repaired he did not say that they were the glasses in evidence. But what other pair of his mother’s glasses would they have been? Are you implying he wore two different pairs of his mothers glasses while his were in being repaired? If so what did he do with the other pair?
    He told his lawyer he had been wearing “the glasses in evidence” on the Sunday evening. Just in case you don’t understand what he meant by that he was referring to the glasses that were found in his room, not some other pair.
    And may I remind you that he denied wearing any pair of his mother’s glasses, so even if, as you say ,he could have been wearing another pair he still lied on oath.
    So far as the lenses not having been wiped, so what? The lens in Stephen’s room wouldn’t have been wiped because David Bain couldn’t find it . You would have to ask him why he didn’t wipe the lens that was found in his room. It had dust on it as it would have had if it had been lying on the floor of Stephen’s room , a room so dusty that the police officers examining it had to wear dust masks.
    I might have only been an office manager, but for a few years I was a branch inspector and internal auditor. So it is no use you trying to discredit me as you are wont to do.
    Your refusal to accept that David Bain was wearing the glasses that were found in his room shows an outstanding lack of comprehensive skills , if you don’t mind me saying so.

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  160. Viking2 (11,216 comments) says:

    If you have a message for the Mayor of the Rotorua District Council, Steve Chadwick, who has been working on a secret proposal to appoint two iwi representatives onto every Council committee, with voting rights, plus an equal number onto Resource Management Committees as Councillors, please share it here so we can include it when we write to her on behalf of 5PM supporters.

    https://www.facebook.com/220457384790044/photos/a.227848150717634.1073741828.220457384790044/289741731194942/?type=1&theater

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  161. Viking2 (11,216 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine (567 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 2:00 pm

    Viking, not only are you too salty, but also too bitter.

    So rest assured, you want end in up in a hangi in the near future.
    ======================
    Nah sweet as. for a tough old bugger. :lol:

    Now you might get away with cynical.

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  162. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Kea

    Their land is not there for them to return to – and their lifestyle was very connected to the land. I’m damn sure if you offered their land back to them, they would take the deal.

    Of course they would have to return the equivalent of anything they might have been paid for it (what was a bottle of whiskey and a few blankets worth back then compared to now?) But then we would have to pay back rent for the use of that land. Either way, I know who would be ‘better off’ (if better off is measured in wealth, and it wouldn’t be me or I suspect you)

    Even if all the ‘improvements were stripped from said land, they could sell it for much more now than the equivalent to what they received back then, even with adjustments for inflation etc.

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  163. stephieboy (2,449 comments) says:

    kea birdbrain , some question re your you Tube Video..
    Who is the presenter ?
    Please explain the presence f of Basher al Assad’s Syrian national flag thoughtfully placed on the table left.?
    Its purpose.?
    The location of the room the presenter is broadcasting from.?
    The news agency behind the broadcast.?
    Answer these questions and we’ll see who is the real sponsor.!

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  164. Viking2 (11,216 comments) says:

    Of course they would have to return the equivalent of anything they might have been paid for it (what was a bottle of whiskey and a few blankets worth back then compared to now?)

    Well they got paid for lots of extra marital sex , same as now. (Even Capt James wrote about that.)

    An axe, a bottle or two of rum Well about 10 000 acres. I reckon.

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  165. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith nonsense. The land was fairly brought and sold according to the price set by Maori. The fact a blanket was worth so much (To Maori) is a statement about their Stone Age culture. You and I would do the same given the same circumstances.

    Maori do have vast amount of land they could inhabit. Instead they wisely use that land to provide income in order to more fully enjoy the benefits of colonalism.

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  166. Viking2 (11,216 comments) says:

    Even if all the ‘improvements were stripped from said land, they could sell it for much more now than the equivalent to what they received back then, even with adjustments for inflation etc.

    Maybe they could but then they would want it all back again or more money from the taxpayer.

    Treaty Negotiations Minister Christopher Finlayson said Ngati Porou chairman Apirana Mahuika is one of his “fathers” in the settlement field and someone he could always talk to. “One of the great heroes of the treaty settlement era” was how Mr Finlayson described Dr Mahuika at the signing of an accord in Gisborne on April 24, 2014.

    The accord provides for an annual summit between Ngati Porou and the Crown “to create an enduring relationship between the two”.

    Before his political career unfolded, Mr Finlayson spent years fighting for super-rich South Island tribe Ngai Tahu against the Government, pursuing its treaty claims through a series of high-profile court battles.

    “I used to love going to the office in the morning when we were suing the Crown”, Finlayson said in a speech in 2009. “Ngai Tahu mastered the art of aggressive litigation. . . It was ‘take no prisoners’ and it resulted in a good settlement” (for Ngai Tahu).

    Analyst Alan Everton described the Ngai Tahu settlement as a swindle.

    Mahuika, with an an honorary doctorate from Waikato University, is an ordained Anglican Minister who was a chaplain/teacher at St Stephen’s School, South Auckland, and was chairman of the working party in 1987 that led to the establishment of Te Runanga o Ngati Porou as a trust board in 1987. He continues to hold that position.

    The Crown-Ngati Porou Relationship Accord is part of the Crown’s Treaty settlement with the East Coast tribe, enacted in 2012.

    At the signing, Dr Mahuika congratulated Mr Finlayson and previous Minister Michael Cullen for what they had achieved, but said the “partnership” had to be on Ngati Porou’s terms.

    Apparently, Mahuika thinks not just that his tribe is a “partner” of the Queen, which is a complete lie, but is actually the senior partner and this is apparently accepted by Finlayson. It is outrages like this which are rapidly making most of us second-class citizens in our own country

    http://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/bruce-moon-finlaysons-father-tribesman.html

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  167. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “it’s ancient and has no more impact on todays peoples as did the battle of waterloo did in the 1930′s.”

    Actually, the repercussions of Waterloo aer felt extremely in todays environment as a spies flse report of a French win caused th estock market to plummet letting the Rothchilds buy up everything and completely domnating the market as they still do today.

    Famous You Tube clip explains this which the Rothchild family vigourously denied yet stayed away from court action.

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  168. muggins (3,108 comments) says:

    Shawn,
    David Bain’s lawyers hammered the jury with reasonable doubt for 53 days. Even so I would have expected at least some of members of that jury to have seen through all the smoke and mirrors.
    And to be fair to them they weren’t to know that David Bain had told his lawyer he had been wearing the glasses in evidence on the Sunday evening. That only became general knowledge when Michael Guest wrote to Judith Collins after the Binnie report debacle.
    David Bain had scratches and/or bruises on his torso that he could not explain. His supporters will tell you that they weren’t there on the Monday morning when the police doctor examined him because he was strip-searched. But the police position is that Bain was not strip-searched on the Monday because he was a witness at that juncture. Bain showed those marks to a female companion on the Wednesday evening and a prison officer saw them when he strip-searched Bain after he was arrested. Stephen Bain had fibres from the jersey the killer wore under his fingernails so obviously he clawed at the wearer of that jersey. Robin Bain had no marks on his torso.
    David Bain had his brother’s blood on his t-shirt and shorts. The defence said it could have somehow got there by way of innocent transfer.
    David Bain had three bruises on his head which the doctor who examined him at around 11.30am on the Monday morning said were between 7 and 13 hours old. The defence said he could have got those bruises when he was pulled into a recovery position after he supposedly fainted after being told his sister Arawa was dead. The police officer in question said he did not see Bain’s head hit anything.
    David Bain told the phone operator that all his family were dead, but then shortly afterwards said he had only seen his mother and father.
    When cross-examined about the green jersey the killer wore he said it was his father’s but prior to him taking the stand he had always said it belonged to Arawa.

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  169. Northland Wahine (655 comments) says:

    Viking @2.45pm

    I think we both may get away with cynical ;)

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  170. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    wat dabney (3,515 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 1:38 pm
    Judith,

    “Better standard of living according to whose definition, and what right does that person have to decide that definition? ”

    Access to better healthcare, better education, better housing, better food. Having a car, a microwave, a TV etc.

    The fact that Maori people have and consume these things rather suggests that they value them just as much as pasty people do.

    Maori have no option but to consume those things. When they were stripped of the vast majority of their land, they had no other means by which to live. They had no option but to try and assimilate into the european way of life.

    All of the things you state are again purely subjective. Better health care? Really? And what do they need that health care for? Alcoholism (who introduced that to them?) Viruses (again where did they come from), smoking related illnesses (once again from where?).

    Better Food? Really? Living on a diet of fresh sea food and vegetables sounds a hell of a lot better than the garbage mostly on offer at an affordable price. Better housing? Depends on how much money you have though, doesn’t it, and whether you have the land to put your ‘better’ house on. When the land was owned or rather possessed by the IWI, you didn’t have to have your ‘section’, building consent etc. Might be more comfortable today, but it is still subjective as to whether they are better off! And don’t even start me on the car and microwave and TV crap because believe me – we would all be a hell of a lot better off if we got off our backsides and walked more, cooked food naturally and got rid of our televisions and other media devices that prevent us from moving as much as we should do!

    “Better off” depends entirely on who you are talking to.
    Does DPF think he is better off than those people he met half way up Mt Everest? Or do they think they are ‘better off’ than him? It depends on who you’re asking, doesn’t it?

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  171. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    stupidboy, would you have asked these irrelevant questions if you saw an Israeli flag ? Predictably you attack the messenger and not the message.

    The presenter is Mimi Al Laham a Syrian now living in Australia. She is opposed to Assad and her family left Syria for that reason, but like most Syrians, prefers him to the US sponsored Muslim extremists attacking the government. They are also killing the ancient and well respected Christian community and targeting Jews.

    I oppose your implied support of Jew hating Muslim fanatics.

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  172. stephieboy (2,449 comments) says:

    UglyTruth (3,267 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 1:25 pm

    Would you identify the Jews as the Christ Killers.?

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  173. muggins (3,108 comments) says:

    Shawn ,
    You may not have seen this article.
    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2013/07/was-david-bain-the-unluckiest-man-ever-that-fateful-day-at-every-street/

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  174. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Wealthy Chinese knock on NZ’s door

    Wealthy Chinese who wanted to emigrate because of concerns over pollution and a crackdown on corruption who had previously considered Canada were now interested in New Zealand and Australia.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10007139/Wealthy-Chinese-knock-on-NZs-door

    No surprise. NZ is a Godsend to Chinese. Automatically approved visa’s and soon, no doubt, no passport needed.

    Meanwhile, Oz arms itself to defend against China.

    Chinese military wil no doubt be launching from NZ. Large parts of Auckland cleared for Chinese.

    although, won’t be able to blame Len, he won’t be mayor. Probably initiating the groundwork though. Such as shoe box accomodation which is straight from UN agenda 21.

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  175. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Alcoholism (who introduced that to them?)

    Judith, You clearly think “white” people have a duty of care to brown people as brown people are less capable of making their own choices.

    I think many Maori would be offended by your views. Are you one of those Nazis ShawnLH has been on about ? ;)

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  176. muggins (3,108 comments) says:

    Shawn,
    What the jury didn’t know.

    The Minister of Justice Parliament Buildings WELLINGTON
    I refer our previous correspondence. I have subsequently had referred to me the response from Justice Binnie to your discussions with him about the glasses evidence which I raised in my letter to you dated 10 September. I am most grateful for the circumspect way in which you raised that matter with the Judge.
    But the Judge’s self-defensive reply is most disturbing, almost as if it is designed to blind you to the relevance of that evidence. My email to you was dated 10 September, your discussion with the Judge was on 13 September and his reply was dated 25 September. He chooses to go on the attack raising issues of my own character and credibility and thus obfuscating the intense relevance of the very matter you raised with him. The detail he has provided raises the question as to who gave him all of the Law Society material. How is it relevant? I have been judged and found wanting but those issues do not alter the incontrovertible facts of the matters I have raised.
    However much of a scoundrel Justice Binnie wants to paint me, the salient facts are these:
    Trenchant and continual criticism of me by the Bain team surely waived privilege from the early stages. There is common law authority to that effect.
    Mr Bain informed both myself and my co-Counsel, Miss Jonelle Williams, that he had been wearing the all-important glasses on the Sunday evening before the 6.30 am murders the next morning.
    In response to a question from the Crown, Mr Bain specifically lied about wearing the glasses tne night before the killings and the ethics of my profession required me to disclose that lie to the prosecution which I immediately did.
    The Crown Solicitor therefore knew this fact at trial.
    Justice Thorp gives my evidence to the PCA the clear stamp of credibility because the Crown Prosecutor confirmed to him what I had told him at trial.
    The importance of this admission of wearing the glasses the night before is, quite simply, a damning admission because the police found the bent frame and one lens in David’s bedroom and the other lens in his murdered brother’s bedroom.
    Justice Binnie then appears to mislead you by quoting and relying upon a passage from the Court of Appeal decision at paragraphs 21 and 22 of his recent Report to you.
    21. This inconsistency gives rise to issues of both of substance and credibility. As to the substance of the claim, the Court of Appeal’s decision of 15 December 2003 subsequent to the Thorp Report concluded that
    “The glasses and lens issue has not featured significantly in our analysis of the strength of the case against David. It does not in any way tend to exculpate David.” (para 244)
    22. For reasons that follow, I agree with that conclusion. Assuming as I do that what Mr Guest told Sir Thomas Thorp is true, it does not “feature significantly” in resolving the substance of the case.
    8. BUT THIS QUOTE FROM THE COURT OF APPEAL was dealing with a different issue relating to the glasses because that Court DID NOT KNOW of the evidence of what David Bain had told myself and my co-Counsel and what we had told the Crown Solicitor at trial.
    Consequently, it can be stated on reasonable grounds that Justice Binnie has himself succumbed to a tunnel visioned approach to the assessment of all relevant evidence relating the prime question he was asked to answer.
    I do not request or expect any response from you. I conclude by congratulating you on a most professional approach to your role as Minister of Justice in this whole sorry affair.
    Yours Faithfully
    Michael Guest

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  177. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Australia retirement age upped to 70

    Australians born after 1965 will have to work until they are 70 before they are eligible for a pension, Australian Treasurer Joe Hockey will announce later today.

    The federal government previously flagged that it was looking at raising the retirement age, with Hockey stating last month it needed to be addressed.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10001907/Australia-retirement-age-upped-to-70

    This just proves globalism means world economies are managed and directed to all arrive at the same scenario’s.

    Uniform economies and uniform citizens all called consumers. Both disenfranchised whilst a small number retain wealth.

    Communism, Fascism, call it what you want. Fabian Keysniasm really.

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  178. stephieboy (2,449 comments) says:

    Birdbrain, I think I’ve really have you over the barrel on this one.According to this interview dated 25/04/2014 Mimi Al Laham does not oppose Assad but continues to spew out her usual pro Assad line with business as usual,

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1r97p9_tide-turning-in-favor-of-syrian-army-mimi-al-laham_news

    herre also,

    http://www.truthnews.com.au/web/radio/story/deconstructing_mainstream_news_coverage_on_syria_with_mimi_al_laham

    Again another reminder. !

    Time frame when you and Mimi expect the imminent US / Israel led invasion and occupation of Syria.??

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  179. OneTrack (2,742 comments) says:

    mike – “Maybe because the issues with Cunliffe’s trust have been resolved – he admitted a mistake and the money was repaid to donors ”

    Which donors? Who are they? And why do they want to buy influence in the Labour Party?

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  180. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Warning for Kiwi innovators

    The failure to adequately protect intellectual property is costing New Zealand innovation exporters millions of dollars, a legal expert says.

    EverEdge IP chief executive Paul Adams, speaking at the EpicNZ Go Global conference in Auckland yesterday, said his law firm dealt with hundreds of innovators who miscalculated the complexity and aggression of the international intellectual property (IP) market.

    He said innovation companies taking their ideas to the world needed to assess, plan and execute an IP strategy rather than adopting “the typical Kiwi fly-by-night attitude”.

    “Kiwis need to plan more,” he said. “It’s not just about having patents and protecting your IP; it’s also about knowing whether you even have freedom to operate in a marketplace.”

    A New Zealand company recently expanded into the United States, only to be sued four times in three weeks because of a lack of knowledge of other innovators in the market, he said.

    Other examples of poor IP planning included a New Zealand firm, successful in its home market, that ended up paying a $15 million settlement to an American competitor after infringing on its IP.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/10003783/Warning-for-Kiwi-innovators

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  181. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Mastercard ‘wallet’ taps into market

    Mastercard believes the uptake of its MasterPass digital wallet, launched last week with Westpac, will outstrip the uptake of contactless payments.

    A digital wallet is an internet-based “virtual” wallet offered, in this case, by Mastercard through banks. People with credit, debit and pre-payment cards can load their card details into the wallet. When buying online they simply click on a MasterPass icon which takes them to a secure page to OK the transaction. The merchant never sees the card details, which makes it more secure and could drive a surge in e-commerce for smaller businesses which consumers wouldn’t normally trust with their card information.

    Matt Barr, Mastercard’s Australasian market development head, said the rise of contactless payments gives an insight into the speed with which payments technologies are adopted. Two years ago in Australia some commentators said contactless payments would be in low single digits but four out of ten face-to-face transactions are now contactless, he said.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/10002444/Mastercard-wallet-taps-into-market

    More of the cashless society the treasonous politicians never talk about. At this point you would expect the media to be asking q’s to govt about far reaching repercussions and consequences of cashless living and technology. Not a word.

    The cashless socieety is not going to be cheap as the banks and financial instutions have been gearing up for it for decades. The hash button on phones came around 1984 for direct banking from phones. This has all been planned.

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  182. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Kea (10,969 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 3:03 pm

    No, I think she was referring to the ignorance of past men which gets one to thinking ” What ignorant mistakes will our children and their children make? “

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  183. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Australia retirement age upped to 70…This just proves globalism means world economies are managed and directed to all arrive at the same scenario’s. Uniform economies and uniform citizens all called consumers. Both disenfranchised whilst a small number retain wealth.

    Er, no. It just proves that people are living much longer than even a few decades ago when the current retirement age was set.

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  184. stephieboy (2,449 comments) says:

    This is really interesting , Russia Today , Brown Moses and the propaganda war that the Kremlin and its arm RT Have been playing in respect of the UN Report and the gas attack in Damascus last year 21/08/13.

    It’s plain duplicity and a game of lies that the gullible like birdbrain willingly participate in it seems.

    http://www.interpretermag.com/russian-media-conspiracy-theories-and-reading-comprehension-issues/

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  185. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    stupidboy, so you oppose a secular government in Syria in preference of Sharia law ?

    You are full of surprises. You also have a major issue with lying.

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  186. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Kea (10,970 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 3:03 pm

    Please don’t tell me you know what I think – you have no idea.

    All I was trying to point out is that being ‘better off’ is subjective. What you and others might consider as ‘better off’ does not mean the person or group you are referring to, feels the same way.

    A personal example for you – I think you would be ‘better off’ staying out of religious discussions – but that doesn’t mean you would be, or even should be – that is just going from my own perception of ‘better off’. You and wat may think according to your own standards that Maori are ‘better off’, but what your standard of understanding what that is, is probably different to other peoples.

    I for example have friends that used to think you are ‘better off’ owning your own home. They mortgaged themselves up to the hilt, worked day and night, went without luxuries etc, just to get a home of their own. They now willing admit they were ‘better off’ renting – in that they could at least enjoy life more. Subjective Kea – that was my point! I would never presume to know what Maori want or even think in the argument – I am not one.

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  187. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    the propaganda war that the Kremlin and its arm RT Have been playing in respect of the UN Report

    stupidboy, is this the exact same UN that condemns the actions of Israel for multiple violations of human rights and international law, or is it some other UN ?

    No abuse thanks. No attempts to distract. No attributing views to me I do not hold. Just answer the question: Is this the same UN or is it another one, less known ?

    Thanks :)

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  188. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    stupidboy, I looked up the UN report YOU referenced and stumbled on a few other reports by YOUR source. Here is one of them. There are many more:

    6 June 2013 – A United Nations independent expert today drew attention to the human rights violations in the occupied Palestinian territory and stressed that attempts to distort the facts cannot mask the reality that Israel’s actions are endangering Palestinians’ lives every day.

    “Neither Israel nor its proxies can justify the facts on the ground in occupied Palestine,” Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, Richard Falk, said, “so they distract, distort and defame to allow the violations to go on.”

    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=45108#.U2W-ZYGSz80

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  189. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Please don’t tell me you know what I think – you I have no idea.

    Judith, fixed your typo dear ;)

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  190. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Judith,

    You and wat may think according to your own standards that Maori are ‘better off’, but what your standard of being what that is, is probably different to other peoples.

    Maori today are objectively better off than those of 200 years ago, just like everyone else is who lives in a developed country.

    Sure, everyone has their own priorities, but our options are infinitely better than they were back then.

    Maori can still ‘have a hangi in the back yard, and as many dogs as [they] want’, but they can also do so many other things now, and being wealthier doesn’t mean that the laws of economics are suspended: it’s still all about trade-offs. Moving to the city to pursue higher-paid job opportunities means no dogs and no hangi. The opportunity cost of the laid-back lifestyle is vastly greater than before.

    You are in essence arguing that Maori would be better off if they weren’t faced with so many opportunities, with all the trade-offs they imply.

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  191. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    wat dabney (3,518 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 4:26 pm

    You still don’t get it – I am NOT arguing that Maori would be ‘anything’ – the definitive answer to that question is something only Maori can answer for themselves, based on what their definition of what ‘better off’ is.

    You’ve given your interpretation of what you think – and many might agree with you – but until you have a consensus on what ‘better off’ is – any answer you or I give is of no relevance.

    I’ll give you a personal example – I have many people tell me I would be better off to sell my car and buy a nice little mazda or similar, that is easier to park, and uses less fuel – but I don’t agree – yes my V8 costs a shit load to run and parking it sometimes is a pain – but every time I start it and hear the rumble of the motor – I go weak in the knees – I know what I am better off with – my bank account might be $100,000 better off if I didn’t have it – but me and how I feel and enjoy life, is MUCH better off with my ‘baby blue’!

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  192. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Judith,

    The idea that everyone living in a developed country is not better off is simply trite. You appear to have no idea what grinding poverty existed just 100 years ago.

    Maori can do everything they did before, but now, like the rest of us, they have so many other amazing opportunities.

    What they can’t do, though, is choose everything. Like everyone else, they have to make trade-offs.

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  193. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ wat dabney (3,519 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 4:41 pm

    They can’t wander round on the bush they once owned wearing nothing but a grass skirt or take as many crayfish as they want from the ocean – to mention just some of the things they used to be able to do.

    It is simply trite Wat, because your values and what you think is important make it that way – not everyone thinks exactly the same as you – which is obvious when religion, the environment, and capitalism are mentioned.

    You are still, with all the examples you give, basing them on what you value – and therefore think everyone else should value them too. The majority may think the same way – but that still does not mean you are right when you make the judgement that a person or an entire race is ‘better off’ if they live by your standards. Being better off requires a degree of contentment and happiness that is greater than what a person had in a previous condition – unless of course they are someone that is ‘happiest’ being miserable. It is a value judgement – made from the position that you think your judgement is superior – and therefore you have the right to tell others what they should feel. You don’t – none of us do.

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  194. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    the definitive answer to that question is something only Maori can answer for themselves, based on what their definition of what ‘better off’ is.

    But you answer it for them anyway.

    V8 ! I never picked you for a bogun chick Judith :)

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  195. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    Kea (10,976 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 5:04 pm

    No, I don’t answer for them, I give my opinion and some examples of where some people might consider they would be ‘better off’. No one but they know and can give the answer to that particular question

    A bogun – hell yeah! I’m a westie original! You can take the Westie out of the west, but you can never take the west out of the westie! ;-) The rumble of a V8 still ‘turns me on’!

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  196. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Judith,

    They can’t wander round on the bush they once owned wearing nothing but a grass skirt or take as many crayfish as they want from the ocean – to mention just some of the things they used to be able to do.

    They pretty much can. Not that that was ever a “choice” in any meaningful sense.

    And now they have an incredible array of other amazing opportunities open to them.

    You are still, with all the examples you give, basing them on what you value – and therefore think everyone else should value them too.

    This is simply a misrepresentation of what I wrote. Basically it’s a lie.

    If you actually read what I said you’ll find the reverse is true. It is you, if anyone, who insists that Maori shouldn’t have these additional choices and opportunities. Everyone is free to pursue their own happiness: more so than in all of human history. That’s the real beauty of Capitalism. But, alas, there is still no free lunch.

    Please stop arguing against what I didn’t say.

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  197. Redbaiter (7,845 comments) says:

    “The rumble of a V8 still ‘turns me on’!”

    That would be a Leyland P76 most likely.

    Not a real V8

    http://falfn.com/CrusaderRabbit/?p=22025

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  198. Don the Kiwi (1,633 comments) says:

    Godd one Reddy.

    Are you making a play for Judith?

    I’m sure there would be a VEERRRYYY interesting discussion on ………….. ;-)

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  199. Redbaiter (7,845 comments) says:

    Don’t know how I know this Don, but I’m sure there would be more profit in listening to someone shaking a stone in an empty Coke can than in listening to Judith speak.

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  200. lilman (911 comments) says:

    Seriously do you think pre colonization this was the land of milk and honey?
    Things were bad for large groups because the rule of might and conquest was in full swing.
    Chiefs had the power of life and death,food was scarce and conditions were extremely bad.
    There was no AROHA,no collective groups of influence only poor health and cannibalism.
    But not if you were royalty or from a dominant tribe.

    Get real, if you were a slave,that’s what you stayed untill the food supply got short,then you were food.So things arent to bad for the majority now it can be said.

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  201. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    The rumble of a V8 still ‘turns me on’

    Judith, this should get the juices flowing :)

    http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQF5hGL-Rf3mq0IvnjuYEXSq8T-1V9nPb3X4CoWyFH7YAo6eg-9

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  202. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Kea (10,977 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 6:03 pm

    LOL – yeah, NAH!! Nice try!

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  203. Rowan (1,943 comments) says:

    I see the broken record is still spouting of her ignorance of the Bain case, which she clearly knows nothing about. The glasses argument is sooo last century and if reposting what a corrupt fraud of an ex lawyer (Guest) has to say then it shows the strength of the argument. I am just awaiting the cartoon of how DB ‘needed’ these glasses to shoot 3 people at point blank range (in bed) but his vision was good enough that he didn’t need them to shoot his father who was concious and standing upright. Given that they were Mrs Bains glasses with one lens adjusted for astigmatism then they would not have been of any assistance to David.
    But Aunt Fanny knows all this already and that they are evidence of nothing but it doesn’t suit her fantasy story so overlooks the facts in favour of her conspiracy theories.

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  204. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    I see Judith Collins has found herself in some more trouble, this time having to apologise for slanging off a One News reported. Sad.

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  205. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Redbaiter (6,489 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 5:20 pm

    Actually when I was a teenager, many many many years ago, the guys were fond of buying old hearses which had originally been imported from the USA. They were reasonably cheap – but not to run, sometimes we have to all chip in a dollar each to fill the tank!

    My next door neighbour had a Dodge – would probably be worth an ‘arm and a leg’ now.

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  206. stigie (965 comments) says:

    Didnt know you had a real V8 Reddy, we thought you had a Skoda ?

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  207. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ mikenmild (8,991 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 6:08 pm

    I think Judith Collins is wanting to make a grand exit. She is getting close to being removed from the PM’s christmas card list, I should imagine.

    What she did to Katie Bradford is not on – it doesn’t matter who your parents are, Collin’s actions were that of a prize cow. I think she’ll be gone by lunchtime! (just not sure which day!)

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  208. Rowan (1,943 comments) says:

    Shawn LH
    Only clear facts in the case is the death of Muggins kiddie fiddling hero whose death scene is not consistent with anything else than a self inflicted shot, the crown unsuprisingly have absolutely no explanation of how it is a ‘murder’ scene’. The fruitloops put up quite a comedic clip on there website of their reconstruction, which is worth a watch for its sheer entertainment value only. I recommend you relieve yourself before watching it as the entertainment value is worth an A but it is utterly ludicrous! Maybe it should have been shown to the jury for entertainment!

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  209. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Nice to know a few folks still believe in David Bain’s innonence. Touching really, in a sad way.

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  210. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Microwaves and TV’s don’t make up for this:

    “The Trail of Tears is a name given to the ethnic cleansing and forced relocation of Native American nations from southeastern parts of the United States following the Indian Removal Act of 1830. The removal included many members of the Cherokee, Muscogee (Creek), Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw nations, among others in the United States, from their homelands to Indian Territory in eastern sections of the present-day state of Oklahoma. The phrase originated from a description of the removal of the Choctaw Nation in 1831.[1]

    Many Native Americans suffered from exposure, disease and starvation on the route to their destinations. Many died, including 2,000-6,000 of 16,542 relocated Cherokee.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

    The fundamental flaw in wat’s argument is that everyone else is as soulless as he is, or as most atheists are. Defining the good life based on toys and consumer choice displays a poverty of soul, a shallow and superficial idea of what makes a life good.

    Moreover, the supposed pay off wat thinks was worth it really was not. The horrific suffering, genocide, and destruction of culture is not remotely made up for by consumerism, not by a long shot.

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  211. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    ShawnLH,

    If you look back in the thread, you’ll find that the debate was about the effect on today’s Maori ,as opposed to the effects on those who experienced colonisation.

    Get back to us when you start to shave, eh?

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  212. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I see Judith Collins has found herself in some more trouble, this time having to apologise for slanging off a One News reported. Sad.

    milky, so you consider it okay for reporters to ask favors of ministers ?

    Why should the ministers who represent us grovel and scrape to the dirty corrupt gutter press of the left, or do you expect the minister to tell lies to protect the gutter press ?

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  213. Fletch (6,094 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, who are the lost tribes of Israel? And if they are lost to history

    Haven’t been following this thread at all, just picking through it for bits of interest, but (devoid of context, and out of interest) just mentioning that Israel has welcomed home one of the ‘lost tribes’ from India.

    Indian Jews from ‘lost tribe’ of Bnei Menashe arrive in Israel

    An Israeli chief rabbi recognized them as a lost tribe in 2005 and about 1,700 moved to Israel before the government stopped giving them visas; now that Israel has reversed that policy, 7,200 more are expected to immigrate.

    Dozens more Jews who are believed to be the descendants of a lost biblical Jewish tribe immigrated to Israel on Monday from their village in northeastern India.

    The Bnei Menashe say they are descended from Jews banished from ancient Israel to India in the eighth century B.C. An Israeli chief rabbi recognized them as a lost tribe in 2005 and about 1,700 moved to Israel before the government stopped giving them visas.

    Israel recently reversed that policy, agreeing to let the remaining 7,200 Bnei Menashe immigrate. Fifty-three arrived on Monday.

    Nearly 300 more members of the community will arrive in the coming weeks, said Michael Freund, of the non-profit organization Shavei Israel, and an activist on their behalf.

    The community, which lives in India’s northeastern border states of Manipur and Mizoram have been practicing Judaism just as their ancestors did, including observing the Sabbath, keeping kosher, celebrating the festivals and following the laws of family purity.

    “After waiting for thousands of years, our dream came true,” said 26-year-old Lhing Lenchonz, who arrived with her husband and 8-month-old daughter.

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/indian-jews-from-lost-tribe-of-bnei-menashe-arrive-in-israel-1.489676

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  214. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    The Trail of Tears is a name given to the ethnic cleansing and forced relocation of… blah blah… white guilt… blah blah… noble savage… blah blah

    ShawnLH , how do you feel about the mass colonisation of the area recently renamed – Israel – and the forced relocation of its inhabitants ?

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  215. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Would you identify the Jews as the Christ Killers.?

    No, the plot by the Pharisees was not successful.

    That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not — nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself.
    The Quran, Surah 4:157-158

    Jesus, seeing that great was the multitude of them that returned to their heart for to walk in the law of God, went up into the mountain, and abode all night in prayer, and when day was come he descended from the mountain, and chose twelve, whom he called apostles, among whom is Judas, who was slain upon the cross. Their names are: Andrew and Peter his brother, fishermen; Barnabas, who wrote this, with Matthew the publican, who sat at the receipt of custom; John and James, sons of Zebedee; Thaddaeus and Judas; Bartholomew and Philip; James, and Judas Iscariot the traitor. To these he always revealed the divine secrets; but the Iscariot Judas he made his dispenser of that which was given in alms, but he stole the tenth part of everything.
    The Gospel of Barnabus.

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  216. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Kea
    Read the story and do try to keep up: Collins apologised for what she said – no favours were asked.

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  217. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Kea (10,978 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 6:24 pm

    1. The minister wasn’t asked a question, she volunteered the information regarding a discussion she had with someone else.
    2. The minister represents all of New Zealand, NOT just those that voted for her.
    3. Do you know who Miss Bradford voted for, or are you just presuming she votes the same as her mother?
    4. Do you approve of people being judged according to the values of their parents?
    5. Bradford stated it was just a conversation and she did not ask any favours. Collins didn’t say she asked for a favour either, but she did roughly imply it.
    6. Any New Zealander, regardless of their political views should be able to approach a Member of Parliament and ask whatever question they like without fear of having their names and the matter aired on public TV.

    I am fully aware for a female to make in Politics they have to be one of the best ‘men’ but how many male MP’s have you seen publicly reveal the name and private business details of a member of the public on something that was not in the publics interest to know?

    Collins was being a bitch – there is no justification for what she did.

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  218. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    Nothing says “I’ve got a two inch cock & a credit card” quite like putting up a photo of your V8 Mustang. :)

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  219. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    I have no V8 nasska…

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  220. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    The minister represents all of New Zealand, NOT just those that voted for her.

    No, she only represents the state or the body politic. The state doesn’t speak for the people without a mandate from the voters, and the voters don’t speak for all of the people.

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  221. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Fletch @ 6:28, yes and they also taught this: [careful with religious fables]

    The Toledot Jeshu (Book of the Life of Jesus), is a devastating Hebrew book to belittle the person of Jesus by ascribing to Him illegitimate birth, magic, witchcraft, and a shameful death. The main point of the Toledot is that Jesus is a deceiver and a heretic who was crucified by the Jews and his disciples stole his body and deceived others by proclaiming his resurrection. All the Toledot Jeshu editions declared Jesus Christ to be a bastard.

    Virgin Mary is portrayed in the Toledot as a woman who conceived Jesus as a result of rape by a Roman soldier, Joseph Pandera.

    http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Jews/+Doc-Jews-Catholics&Christianity/JewsTellTalesOnJesus.htm

    Thus uncensored versions of the Talmud influenced early medieval attitudes toward Christianity. In addition, mention should be made of the vehemently anti-Christian Toledot Yeshu (The Life of Jesus), a Jewish biographical narrative about Jesus, which probably appeared in its complete form around the 10th century. In it, Jesus is presented as the product of a rape–a disrespectful rebel who achieved supernatural powers by stealing a holy name from the Temple.

    http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Jews_and_Non-Jews/Attitudes_Toward_Non-Jews/Christianity.shtml

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  222. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    A close tie between two brothers – one the president of CBS News and the other the White House adviser who now is at the center of the Benghazi email scandal – wasn’t discussed with viewers because top brass though it “wasn’t relevant,” according to a former reporter for the network.
    http://www.wnd.com/2014/05/cbs-conceals-family-ties-to-benghazi-scandal/

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  223. cha (3,826 comments) says:

    Nothing says “I’ve got a two inch cock & a credit card

    https://twitter.com/YeaYouRite/statuses/462696733277839360

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  224. stigie (965 comments) says:

    Might be better off with a huge cock, no credit card and a Skoda Nasska ?

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  225. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    cha, I don’t think the lady in your link has a two inch cock. Looking like that she could have any size she wants !

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  226. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    He plays the hand he was dealt stigie. :)

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  227. Redbaiter (7,845 comments) says:

    I was torn between the Mustang and the Porsche 911, which also wears a CR flag, but in the end KG decided the Mustang would piss you losers off the most.

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  228. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    And a Porsche 911!

    I’ve revised my estimates Baity…..inch & a half max. :)

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  229. Redbaiter (7,845 comments) says:

    That’s rich from someone who still drives a 57 Fergie into town and has sex with his sister.

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  230. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    nasska, Red is being quite bitchy, I am not so sure Red is getting any cock at all.

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  231. stigie (965 comments) says:

    Was it a 23hp or a 28hp Fergie Reddy….makes a huge difference !~

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  232. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    My car is such a tragic looking pile of crap that Red would call the cops if I parked it outside his retirement home. Its so bad car thieves would probably leave $20 on the seat to help me out. Its reliable and I have other ways to impress the ladies, though I am still not sure what they are :)

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  233. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    He treated his lover of fifteen years to an expensive manicure yesterday Kea.

    Although, his left hand is now looking pretty shabby next to it. :)

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  234. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    Collins was being a bitch

    What’s new about that?

    What is up with National? They had all these really great, competent, intelligent female politicians like Te Heu Heu and Rich who everybody (even Labour voters) actually liked and respected.

    So National scares them off and promotes authoritarian idiots like Collins and Bennett, along with incompetents like Parata and Tolley.

    Are they trying to sabotage the progress of gender equality by stealth?

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  235. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    Actually when I was a teenager, many many many years ago, the guys were fond of buying old hearses.

    The only reason I could imagine purchasing such a vehicle is that it would be pretty easy to pick up cute Goth girls. Stick a casket in the back and it’s a veritable love machine.

    If the coffin is a rockin’, it ain’t Dracula who’s knockin’.

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  236. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I was torn between the Mustang and the Porsche 911, which also wears a CR flag, but in the end KG decided the Mustang would piss you losers off the most.

    Spoken like a true man of the people :)

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  237. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    In response to a freedom of information request made by Before It’s News friend and Attorney Orly Taitz requesting any and all documents in the possession of NSA regarding the missing Malaysian airplane MH370, the NSA has seemingly slit its own wrist by denying all information under the grounds of Executive Order 13526: “…the MH370 disappearance has been classified as a matter ‘to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign relations’….”

    http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-theories/2014/05/nsa-slits-own-wrist-classifies-mh370-info-what-do-they-know-the-rest-of-the-world-doesnt-know-2462386.html

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  238. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Orly Taitz? Loony alert!

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  239. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    In response to a freedom of information request made by Before It’s News friend and Attorney Orly Taitz

    Are you fuckin mad, bro?

    Oily Taint is famous for being a certifiable lunatic.

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  240. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    Why is it that skinny girls think that they’re a bit chubby?
    Curvy girls think that they’re fat?
    Fat girls think that they’re obese?
    And Obese girls think they’re bloody supermodels?

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  241. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Oily Taint is famous for being a certifiable lunatic.

    How does that affect the response to the FOI request?

    There’s reason to believe that they’ve got something to cover up:

    THE ISRAELI TWIN – Why would Israel have a plane identical to the missing Malaysia Airlines plane in storage in Tel Aviv? The plane in this photo is Boeing 777 2H6(ER) first flown in July 1998, Construction No. 28416* (Original Reg. No. 9M-MRI), an identical twin of the missing plane, which was given a new registration number (N105GT) and flown to Israel in November 2013.
    http://www.bollyn.com/are-the-israelis-planning-another-9-11-using-the-missing-777/

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  242. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    A lunatic on one issue (birtherism) is likely to show nuttiness in other areas. No surprise to find Ugly considers her a reliable source though.

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  243. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    How does that affect the response to the FOI request?

    There’s reason to believe that they’ve got something to cover up:

    THE ISRAELI TWIN – Why would Israel have a plane identical to the missing Malaysia Airlines plane in storage in Tel Aviv? The plane in this photo is Boeing 777 2H6(ER) first flown in July 1998, Construction No. 28416* (Original Reg. No. 9M-MRI), an identical twin of the missing plane, which was given a new registration number (N105GT) and flown to Israel in November 2013.

    I guess she’s not the only lunatic. I think you’d make a lovely couple. Apparently she’s also a nymphomaniac, so you have a chance.

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  244. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Tom Jackson (2,298 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 7:49 pm

    There is an old saying, something about in order for a woman to be as successful as a man, she has to work twice as hard a her male counterparts, and be twice as tough, whilst at the same time wearing high heels.

    That may have once been the case, but I think we have come far enough that we accept the difference between males and females, and appreciate each for what they can offer.

    There is nothing wrong with her being tough, but there is a huge difference between tough and being bitchy.

    I have always thought she was a very intelligent woman, however her behaviour today, on both the Bradford issue, and the answer regarding the swamp Kauri was extremely stupid. I’m pleased to see that Key was at least clever enough not to support her bad behaviour – which frankly came across like a mini tantrum.

    It is going to be an interesting week – Labour on its own wouldn’t have got much kudos out of this, but if the media take it on board – then Key may have to sacrifice the ‘naughty child’ in order to appease the public.

    Parliamentary TV might be screened on the comedy channel this week!

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  245. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    A lunatic on one issue (birtherism) is likely to show nuttiness in other areas.

    Finished your ad hom yet?

    It doesn’t matter if she’s certified five owls crazy, the FOI response says that they are hiding something.

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  246. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ugly, why would you ask the NSA in the USA about a Malaysian plane that went missing in Asia with a bunch of Asians on board on the way to China ?

    I know the US is a great source of conspiracy theories but it is not the world. The illusion that it is the world is largely due to your inability to access content in other languages from more intelligent countries.

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  247. nasska (10,827 comments) says:

    ….”I think you’d make a lovely couple. Apparently she’s also a nymphomaniac, so you have a chance.”…..

    We’ve got a bloke hanging around here with a V8 Mustang Tom. He hasn’t had any action for a bit so they might be up for a threesome. :)

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  248. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    There is an old saying, something about in order for a woman to be as successful as a man, she has to work twice as hard a her male counterparts, and be twice as tough, whilst at the same time wearing high heels.

    And here is another even older saying:

    A woman place is in the home. ;)

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  249. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Tom Jackson (2,301 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 7:53 pm

    The Goth fashion was still a few decades away when I was a teenager!

    There were two reasons the hearses were popular – one they were cheap, and two there was plenty of room to lie down in the back – I’ll leave the rest up to your imagination! It was the 70′s!

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  250. Judith (8,226 comments) says:

    @ Kea (10,986 comments) says:
    May 4th, 2014 at 8:09 pm

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know – my kids keep telling me I should be in a home too!!

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  251. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Why would Israel have a plane identical to the missing Malaysia Airlines plane in storage in Tel Aviv?

    Bwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha :)

    There are over a thousand in circulation. Maybe Israel brought one to fly people around and stuff ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777

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  252. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    There is nothing wrong with her being tough, but there is a huge difference between tough and being bitchy.

    Helen Clark was tough. Marilyn Waring was tough. Hillary Clinton is tough. Margaret Thatcher was tough. You can be tough without coming across as a mindless authoritarian. If you are going to be a tough politician, you need the capacity to laugh at yourself in public. Muldoon had that.

    Yes, I do remember the 70s Love Wagons, even if I was too young to partake at the time. ;-)

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  253. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    The illusion that it is the world is largely due to your inability to access content in other languages from more intelligent countries.

    DERP

    http://anewwe.org/dear-nsa/whistle-blowers-everything-nsa/sibel-edmonds-nsa-whistleblowers-coalition-boiling-frogs-post/

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  254. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Ha ha Ugly. I only ad hom on total fucking idiots. Even if Taitz was sane, how could you possibly know whether such a FOIA request was even made, or if it was in fact denied whether there might not be proper grounds for such a denial?

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  255. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    We’ve got a bloke hanging around here with a V8 Mustang Tom. He hasn’t had any action for a bit so they might be up for a threesome.

    I thought Russ plays exclusively for the other team, IIRC.

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  256. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ugly, if there are hidden facts about 911 then all this focus on nutty conspiracy theories will ensure those facts never gain public acceptance, even if they were true.

    The Truther movement would be an ideal cover.

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  257. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    Ugly, if there are hidden facts about 911 then all this focus on nutty conspiracy theories will ensure those facts never gain public acceptance, even if they were true.

    Everyone knows that it was the Jews in the Conservatory with the candlestick.

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  258. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    There are over a thousand in circulation.

    So what? The planes are produced in pairs, it was one of two.

    http://theunhivedmind.com/wordpress3/2014/03/28/flight-mh370-in-tel-aviv/

    Plane history: It was first leased by Malaysia airlines. Then purchased by GA Telesis. Then, FIVE FULL YEARS before the absolute MINIMUM life span, was scheduled to be scrapped for parts (makes no sense at all, it could have flown for at least 10 more years), and then for some mysterious reason it showed up in France, only to end up in Tel Aviv. This is where it all gets odd – WHY would it be slated for scrapping in America while still far too new, only to end up in Israel just sitting there?

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  259. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I thought Russ plays exclusively for the other team

    Tom, only since the vile Jesus hating progs passed the compulsory sodomy and gay marriage Act in order to undermine all things good and decent in the world. [Red was never much good at statutory interpretation] ;)

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  260. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    Plane history: It was first leased by Malaysia airlines. Then purchased by GA Telesis. Then, FIVE FULL YEARS before the absolute MINIMUM life span, was scheduled to be scrapped for parts (makes no sense at all, it could have flown for at least 10 more years), and then for some mysterious reason it showed up in France, only to end up in Tel Aviv.

    And JFK’s reanimated corpse was seen piloting it, with Jimmy Hoffa as flight engineer.

    I also heard they served peanuts with the Masonic logo on them.

    ITS A CONPSIRACY!11!!

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  261. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Bill English warns the election could be close:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10006820/Election-will-be-close-English

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  262. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Ha ha Ugly. I only ad hom on total fucking idiots.

    So what? You’re the idiot who doesn’t have an argument.

    how could you possibly know whether such a FOIA request was even made, or if it was in fact denied whether there might not be proper grounds for such a denial?

    Well maybe you should read the link and find out for yourself, before you go full retard?

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  263. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    Tom, only since the vile Jesus hating progs passed the compulsory sodomy and gay marriage Act

    So he only objects to state-funded buggery?

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  264. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “There are over a thousand in circulation.”

    So what? The planes are produced in pairs, it was one of two.

    Ugly, so there is your answer I would have thought !

    Where are you going with this ? You know I do not mindlessly defend Israel, but are you seriously saying they were behind that attack ?

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  265. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    Well maybe you should read the link and find out for yourself, before you go full retard?

    From the same site.

    http://theunhivedmind.com/wordpress3/category/the-aerosol-programme/

    Do you believe in chemtrails, Ugly?

    This is also epic:

    http://theunhivedmind.com/wordpress3/category/the-brotherhood-of-zeus-and-kronos/

    It’s like the Wal Mart of lunacy.

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  266. All_on_Red (1,464 comments) says:

    Hilary Clinton doesn’t seem so tough when a shoe gets thrown at her. Poor diddums ducked and ran for her Secret Service minders.

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  267. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Tom, you make a strong point. Red has always been proud of his ability to be gay without the Nanny States help. He was gay long before it was made compulsory.

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  268. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Yeah All_on_Red, she should have stood tall and stared blankly at the assailant like George W did.

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  269. All_on_Red (1,464 comments) says:

    Tall and Hilary don’t go together. Shrunken old person that she is. If she’s the best the Dems have got ….

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  270. itstricky (1,681 comments) says:

    Bill English warns the election could be close:

    We have to get the highest vote any incumbent has ever got, to win. The Opposition can be divided, it can have many leaders and co-leaders, it can have no vision, very little policy, be disorganised, but under MMP it can win. We need to remember that every single day,” English warned.

    Hold on, it’s it all Labour with regards to releasing policy? When was the last time National released a policy?

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  271. All_on_Red (1,464 comments) says:

    Must go, Blacklist is on. Ugly probably thinks it’s a documentary!

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  272. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ugly, my bad re the 777. I thought you were talking about 911 not Malaysia MH370. Though my point still stands. They are a common plane.

    Anyway you were saying how Israel was behind that one as well…

    Why would Israel do that ?

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  273. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    All_on_Red
    But who will the Republicans be able to agree on as a candidate. Anyone pure enough will be unelectable and anyone electable will not be pure enough.

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  274. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Where are you going with this ? You know I do not mindlessly defend Israel, but are you seriously saying they were behind that attack ?

    GA Telesys/Ultimate Aircraft Composites has got “Israeli front company” written all over it.
    It doesn’t prove that the Zionists were behind the disappearance of MH370, it’s just evidence that they were involved.

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  275. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ugly, yes I got that. My question is simply: Why ?

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  276. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Why would Israel do that ?

    To set up Iran. Something was going on, they shut down all their embassies.

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  277. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    Hillary Clinton doesn’t seem so tough when a shoe gets thrown at her. Poor diddums ducked and ran for her Secret Service minders.

    Hillary Clinton is the pre-eminent female politician of her generation. The only person who has a show of preventing her from becoming the first female President of the US is Elizabeth Warren, and I don’t think she has a show.

    Like her or loathe her, Hillary is extremely smart, accomplished, tenacious and politically astute. She will humiliate whomever the Republicans put up. They would need someone of the stature of Eisenhower or the political instincts of Nixon to beat her, and they have no such candidate.

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  278. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ugly I would not trust the Israelis as far as I could kick them regarding Iran, but what is the link with a ordinary passenger flight in Asia and Iran ?

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  279. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Two “Iranians” with false passports. There were initially suspect hijackers then the story was they were political refugees.

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  280. Tom Jackson (2,479 comments) says:

    Bill English warns the election could be close:

    I’ve been saying this for ages. National at it’s absolute peak has never been likely to get over 50% of the vote. The left parties at their peak have managed that in the past.

    National’s exceptional poll ratings have come largely at the expense of its coalition partners, and even that is not enough.

    My guess is that Winston will hold the balance of power and be bribed into a confidence and supply agreement with National. A Labour/Greens/NZF government just isn’t going to work.

    To be blunt, most of the country would be happy with that. They like Key, but don’t want more privatisations and other far right shit. Winston would put a stop to most of it.

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  281. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ugly, yes we know about them. A couple of young guys looking for a better life. They were cleared.

    Is that it ?

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  282. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    What do you expect from Ugly, Kea? Something that makes sense?

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  283. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    milky, I was hoping for a good yarn but he seems strangely reticent. I never knew the Israelis were such a threat to civil aviation and were hoping for a bit of detail. I sat next to one on an international flight once. Seems I was lucky to escape ! ;)

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  284. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Is that it ?

    Apart for The Zionists history of involvement in general nefarium in the Middle East and their presence at Diego Garcia when access was restricted, you mean?
    The same Diego Gracia that is near the Maldives where there were reports of a plane like MH370…

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  285. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    Depressing forecast of how things will play out in Ukraine:
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/05/vladimir_putin_s_strategy_in_ukraine_the_kremlin_leader_condemns_and_copies.2.html

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  286. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    KB’s going to be a fun read if National does not get in. Though the ruling elite of homosexual Muslim communists will probably ban it soon after forming their coalition of pure evil. ;)

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  287. mikenmild (11,193 comments) says:

    I’m just looking forward to the Kiwibloggers praising the new co-PM, Sir Winston Peters, as soon as he inks a deal with John Key.

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  288. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ugly, you don’t need to convince Kea of Zionist mischief. But I am asking you to focus on this one thing. Why would they kill a bunch of Asians on an ordinary passenger flight ?

    The fact Zionists do some bad things does not mean any bad thing they are accused of is automatically true. Do they “conspire” ? Yes they do, but all groups conspire to improve their circumstances. Fiji and Kenya, Hindus and Buddhists do too, but the Zionists are just better at it. It does not follow they are uniquely evil. I find plenty to criticize without demonising them and making absurd unproven claims.

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  289. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Why would they kill a bunch of Asians on an ordinary passenger flight ?

    Who says there are dead? There’s no plane and no bodies recovered.

    all groups conspire to improve their circumstances

    No, some are honourable.

    I find plenty to criticize without demonising them and making absurd unproven claims.

    Who made an absurd unproven claim?

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  290. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I’m just looking forward to the Kiwibloggers praising the new co-PM, Sir Winston Peters, as soon as he inks a deal with John Key.

    I predict Winston will attempt to win over the Asian vote by allowing mass immigration of China’s 20 Million Muslims and in a bold humanitarian move massively increase refugee quotas by allowing persecuted Gay Muslims sanctuary in NZ.

    By 2020 I expect NZ will be the gay Muslim capital of the world with rigidly enforced Gay Sharia law.

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  291. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ugly, okay so they may be still alive. What do the Zionists want with a bunch of Asians ? I know many are probably Muslim, but the Muslim folk there are pretty laid back and the ones I know do not like the ME Muslims much at all. Not least because of their appalling abuse of Maids in places like Saudi Arabia.

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  292. TimG_Oz (922 comments) says:

    1) Login to Kiwiblog
    2) CTRL-F “Demerits”.
    3) 0 Results found. Still alive in the sweepstake for closest to the date of Kea’s next departure

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  293. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Who made an absurd unproven claim?

    “all groups conspire to improve their circumstances” ~ Kea

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  294. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz, I know freedom of speech appalls you. Maybe you can get the ADL onto me ?

    I reckon I am on about 70 now. What date did you predict ? :)

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  295. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Who made an absurd unproven claim?

    “all groups conspire to improve their circumstances” ~ Kea

    Ugly, so you reckon “zionists” are the only group to collude and conspire to improve their circumstances ? You must have done poorly in Social Studies at your care facility.

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  296. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Resorting to a smear after you got outed as a hypocrite, Kea? How quaint.

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  297. TimG_Oz (922 comments) says:

    Nah mate just looking forward to getting my scroll finger back. Plenty of freedom of speech on the Internet. Get your own page.

    But, if you can hold out till Wednesday, then consider it a favor for me ;-)

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  298. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Ugly, still waiting for details on the Zionist plot to hijack a plane load of Asians ? Maybe you should check if Mossad has been buying more rice than usual ?

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  299. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    Oh cripes Kea, don’t you get it. EVERYTHING bad that happens in the world is the fault of Israel. They are Satanic Zionist Reptilian Shape Shifters, didn’t you know that?

    Or the Queen.

    Or the Pope.

    Or both the Queen and the Pope, as according to Ugly they are both in the same secret Satanic ritual abuse cult. Well, when the Queen is not making Canadian children magically disappear at picnics that is.

    Or whoever Peter Arnett and his International Tribunal says.

    Or whoever David Icke says is an alien lizard person this week.

    Or……

    Nah, Ugly just needs to take his meds. :)

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  300. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Tim, have you found my recent posts on Jewish literature and Israeli news articles informative ? I have been swatting up :)

    Though strangely they keep getting voted down. Probably from the Nazis ShawnLH has been telling me about.

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  301. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, Ugly now seems confused about Israel/Zionists and Jews. All different things, that can sometimes be related.

    Zionist certainly have an agenda. You probably guessed I do not support all of it !

    But what you REALLY see me doing on KB is opposing the demonising and persecution of single religious groups and the resultant suspension of logic along with the emergence of double standards. This is exactly what Ugly is doing with his stories about the zionists. I will defend them the same as I will Muslims, Hindus or anyone else from bullshit claims.

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  302. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    That’s fine Kea.

    I just ask that you don’t lump me in with the anti-Muslim posters on this blog. I may support the war on terror, but I don’t do so for anti-Islamic reasons.

    Anyway, I don’t know how far you will get with Ugly. He has spent so long wrapped up in this complex web of increasingly bizarre conspiracy theories that I seriously think he has lost touch with reality.

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  303. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    The problem with having a “world view” on different settings to others is when seeing what happens in the world through this lens. However this is common to those who interpret the book of Revelation according to the generation in which they live.

    In my opinion, this book is supposed to be relevant to all generations, not any particular generation.

    Those who try and link the symbolism in prophecy to a set of players, are merely acting to demonise actors on the political stage in their own era. This is the way of the prophet railing against the world of their time, they turn the written word into a resource for their political activism.

    And once their prophecy, or witness to their understanding of prophecy is made known, it is set in stone and there is no reasoning with them on it.

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