The Campbell Live Dotcom conspiracy episode

May 20th, 2014 at 8:33 pm by David Farrar

You have to all go and watch Campbell Live tonight and try and stop laughing.

It’s classic conspiracy theory stuff. It sort of goes like this:

  • Key appoints Mateparae Governor-General to create vacancy at – March 2011
  • Director of US National Intelligence, Jim Clapper, visits one week later and meets
  • McCully visits Hillary Clinton May 2011
  • PM has breakfast with Ian Fletcher in June 2011
  • Key visits Obama July 2011 and shock horror asks Fletcher to apply for GCSB job the SAME MONTH!
  • Oct 2011 – Key, Fletcher, SIS Head, MFAT Head, NZDF  and DPMC Head have a meal at British High Commissioner’s place!
  • 12 Dec 2011 – Key meets GCSB (one of 10 meetings that year) and meets Ian Fletcher who is in NZ
  • 16 Dec 2011 – surveillance of Dotcom begins
  • Obama invites Key to White House – May 2014 – THE PAYOFF!

You especially have to like the spooky sinister music they played. They say they’ve been working on the story for three years. Seriously? They even make it sounds sinister that a civilian instead of military was made GCSB Head and an outsider was made MFAT Head. Yes Allan and Fletcher were both plants by John Key, so that they could all conspire with the US to spy on !!

Also part of the conspiracy is that Fletcher had worked for the UK Government (also in Five Eyes) in the Intellectual Property Office (which ties in to Dotcom!).

This is the funniest episode ever. Please please watch it, so you can laugh.

Kim Dotcom tweeted:

The answer is a lot more than that. More wet than Winston’s water pistol.

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147 Responses to “The Campbell Live Dotcom conspiracy episode”

  1. Grant (444 comments) says:

    Bradbury has wet himself with excitement over this whole thing as well and his tweets are just pathetic, but John Campbell, if you’re reading this, perhaps you could tell us why you are SO desperate to see JK out of the picture, and do you really believe that everything will improve as soon as cunliffe and norman are running the place? Really?
    Dare you to share……
    G

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  2. doggone7 (833 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  3. Auberon (873 comments) says:

    While I bet it played well to John’s smug Grey Lynn constituency, all it served to do for me was give me enormous confidence that the government has all of our best interests at heart. And I bet I’m not alone.

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  4. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,924 comments) says:

    Do any senior executives at TV3 exercise any control over their idiot staff?

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  5. odysseus (26 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  6. greenjacket (487 comments) says:

    OMG. John Campbell has just jumped the shark. While wearing a tinfoil hat.

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  7. David Farrar (1,902 comments) says:

    Doggone: I watched it on TV3+1 at 8 pm as I saw some tweets about it. Of course I watched the whole thing – more fun than attending the Comedy Festival]

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  8. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  9. srylands (417 comments) says:

    At The Standard they think it is a game changer. Good grief.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/campbell-live-fletcher-key-clapper-et-al/

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  10. CrazyIvan (90 comments) says:

    I;m surprised Campbell didn’t claim the payoff was that round of golf for Max!

    This has to be Campbell Live’s jump-the-shark moment. It was a poorly executed effort to smear the PM and GCSB with no evidence whatsoever, apart from a few dates linked together to appear sinister. Seriously, Nicky Hager could have come up with a better-researched scenario.

    The funniest one was the claim of something sinister in Fletcher being appointed as a civilian when all the previous heads were military, when those on the left always railed against the exclusive military control of the intelligence agencies. Actually the funniest was the claim that Key made Matapaere GG so he could spy on Dotcom!

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  11. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    “nestled in the vineyards, just outside Blenheim, one of the most distinctive and secret structures in the country”

    yeah, real secret

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  12. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  13. MikeG (425 comments) says:

    What was special about the meeting in Oct 2011 that required Fletcher’s attendance even though he hadn’t started in the job?

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  14. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  15. Raphael (88 comments) says:

    This has got to be a joke from Campbell. I mean even for him this is completely ridiculous.

    That or he is still smarting from the slap down Key gave him on the show, but to produce such a blatantly absurd story….

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  16. Keeping Stock (10,443 comments) says:

    When will the Left learn that these pathetic attempts at smears have the opposite effect to what is intended? Reid Research is probably in the field polling for 3News right now, and in all probability, Campbell Live has just given National a boost of a couple of percentage points.

    John Campbell should leave the tinfoil hat stuff to Winston Peters…

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  17. srylands (417 comments) says:

    “They have refused to answer repeated questions about what they discussed at this dinner.”

    God not another dinner.

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  18. Grant (444 comments) says:

    So you believe this is true do you UT? That John Key moved Mataparae to the GG’s role so that the US could spy on dotcom. Do you really believe it?
    G

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  19. Grant (444 comments) says:

    @keeping stock: John Campbell should just leave. (fixed it for ya)
    G

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  20. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    but to produce such a blatantly absurd story….

    How is it absurd to think that a country with a history of political interference would interfere with New Zealand?

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  21. queenstfarmer (782 comments) says:

    No, wait, I’ve worked it out: Jim Clapper hypnotised Key, then Hillary Clinton replaced McCully with a lookalike, who came back to NZ and flipped the Queen of Diamonds on Key right before the Fletcher breakfast, causing Key to hire Fletcher, who is actually a CIA agent.

    John Campbell = that feeling when you can’t tell if what you are watching is satire.

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  22. peterwn (3,312 comments) says:

    Would not take much effort to re-jig it as a ‘Yes Prime Minister’ episode.

    CrazyIvan – Of course the round of golf would have been a bigger payoff than the forthcoming White House meeting but the the White House meeting has greater immediacy which is CampbellLive named it as the payback.

    My conspiracy theory – the golf round was initially jacked up by the US Secret Service and the NZ Police Diplomatic Protection Squad.

    Another query – who released private personal information from Queensland State records, or are they so politically correct that all this sort of stuff can be sought.

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  23. Michael (911 comments) says:

    Ah, Mr Campbell – you take 2, add 2, and expect us to believe the answer is 591. Unless there is hard evidence of John Key, the GSCB, the US Government, Hollywood, NZ Police, FBI, and anyone else in this cobbled together theory actually colluded to illegally spy on Kim Dotcom (and managed to prevent any of the hundreds of people this involved from talking) then your story belongs in the realm of John LeCarre and Tom Clancy.

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  24. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  25. doggone7 (833 comments) says:

    David Farrar

    Do you think John Key told the truth about his dealings with Ian Fletcher?

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  26. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    I thought Dotcom would have crawled over glass to have made the meeting with Hone, putting it aside because of apparent domestic difficulties is odd …. or over confident at the least – seems like a better watch of what may be unfolding underneath.

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  27. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    How can corporates still continue to have their brands associated with this show? Is JC actually the mystery Labour candidate for Tamaki Makarau?

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  28. CrazyIvan (90 comments) says:

    Michael, this plot no way matches those of Le Carre or Tom Clancy, – it’s so bad it’s more like one of those self-published e-book thrillers selling for $0.99 on Amazon….

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  29. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Is it true KDC wife left him because she found out he was having an affair with John Campbell?

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  30. Grant (444 comments) says:

    Dont fudge it Ugly.
    You’re the one who printed screeds of information at 9.05 so it seems to me that you do believe it but don’t want to come right out and say that so as that would, what, make you look stupid perhaps?

    Go on. Nail your colours to Campbell’s mast.
    G

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  31. Pita (374 comments) says:

    So where does Elvis fit into this conspiracy and flight MH 370?

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  32. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    I never waste my time watching the little eyes-far-to-close-together bloke but perhaps he is trying to relieve his glory days!

    http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/3-news-corngate-interview-with-helen-clark-2002

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  33. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @Pita (358 comments) says:
    May 20th, 2014 at 9:26 pm

    It wasn’t Elvis, it was Michael Jackson – MH 370 met with a UFO inhabited by humans from the future who bought Micheal back so he could perform at the music awards last night.

    If you don’t believe me, watch the news, it was certainly MJ!

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  34. stephieboy (3,414 comments) says:

    UT , since you seem to believe Boston bombing that the fellow in the wheel chair with legs blown off was a fake victim you’ll believe anything.
    No surprises there.

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  35. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    Anyway if we hadn’t bailed Campbells Aussie masters out with a $43,000,000 guarantee a while ago we wouldn’t be having this discussion now! :)

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  36. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    You’re the one who printed screeds of information at 9.05 so it seems to me that you do believe it but don’t want to come right out and say that so as that would, what, make you look stupid perhaps?

    The reason Mateparae was moved on is irrelevant. The real issue is the reason for Fletcher’s appointment.

    IMO anyone with a functional brain can see the connection between Fletcher’s appointment and the warming in relations between the two states.
    To think that it was all just a strange coincidence is fantasyland.

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  37. Grant (444 comments) says:

    Judith, get your shit together woman! It was the Queen. She organised the whole thing, and of course the GG is her representative, and EVERYONE knows how desperate she is to avoid justice over her murdering all those Canadian kiddies back in the 50s. She and Elvis are in league with Hilary Clinton, and Harvey Wilson is tied up with them as well.
    Just ask UT.
    G

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  38. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    POE’s LAW!!!!

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  39. Grant (444 comments) says:

    Yes or No UT?? How hard can it be?
    G

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  40. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    You have reading difficulties, Grant? Mateparae isn’t important, Fletcher is.

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  41. CrazyIvan (90 comments) says:

    Ugly, that’s bollocks about warming in relationships coming after Fletcher’s appointment – that warming happened from around 2005 onwards, under the Clark govt and then the Key one. That included Condi Rice visiting here in 2008 (the first bilateral visit in 10 yrs), the Wellington Declaration in 2010 when Clinton visited, at least 10 months before Fletcher’s appointment.

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  42. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    IMO anyone with a functional brain can see the connection between Fletcher’s appointment and the warming in relations between the two states.

    And then the paranoid delusional brain imagines all sorts of backroom deals and shady goings on and declares that the first step simply has to imply all the rest.

    If this is all you’ve got, then you have failed to make a convincing argument and should shut the fuck up and stop wasting everyones time until you have something better. Simply repeating the same weak shit will spread it thinner and thinner.

    No doubt the left will push this for fucking ever. Nothing like trying to win based on innuendo and lies when you have lost the policy debate for years.

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  43. davidp (3,588 comments) says:

    So, to summarise:

    1. Key meets foreign leaders and officials from time to time.

    2. Key meets with the staff of an agency that he oversees from time to time.

    3. That agency had a dysfunctional culture for a long time, and may have been violating the law. Part of the problem is that it was a dumping ground for retired generals. Key realised this and brought in a new CEO without a military background, but with a strong record of success in both the UK and Queensland public service.

    4. Dotcom is the center of his own world, and can’t believe he isn’t the center of Key’s world as well.

    5. Campbell jumped the shark. The Standard didn’t, but only because the shark ate them years ago.

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  44. Grant (444 comments) says:

    I read well thanks UT.

    Why include Mataparae in your timeline then if he’s not important?

    Never mind, your conspiracies and the way you continually dodge any serious questions really amuse me. Thanks for the laugh.

    Night
    G

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  45. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Ugly, that’s bollocks about warming in relationships coming after Fletcher’s appointment

    That’s not what I said. I said that the connection was between Fletcher’s appointment and the warming in relations between the two states, not that one followed the other or that it was the only reason for the relationship to change.

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  46. doggone7 (833 comments) says:

    David Farrar

    Do you think John Key told the truth about his dealings with Ian Fletcher?

    I love it – thumbs down for asking a very simple question! And not at all an impertinent one even if I say so myself.

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  47. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Why include Mataparae in your timeline then if he’s not important?

    Because it’s not my timeline, and I didn’t cut bits out because I didn’t think they were important. Why are you focusing on irrelevances when there is a clear case for interference by the US state?

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  48. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    What utter nonsense how can a pure creature like Obama be part of the reptilian shapeshifters conspiracy like JK is?

    It’s only like last week or so when the left said he was the great black hope and all! :)

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  49. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    And then the paranoid delusional brain imagines all sorts of backroom deals and shady goings on and declares that the first step simply has to imply all the rest.

    So your position is that it’s all just a strange coincidence, Kimble?

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  50. Tinshed (170 comments) says:

    16 December 2011: GCSB’s “illegal surveillance” of Kim Dotcom began.

    12-16 December: Fletcher met Key, Simon Murdoch (Acting GCSB Chief), Hugh Wolfenson (oversaw spying on Kim Dotcom)

    20 May 2014 Dotcom appears in court as a witness against John Banks – exactly 155 days since GCSB’s surveillance on him began. Note: 155 days. Obviuosly the 1 is a symbol for “i”, and two 5’s is plural so clearly this is a symbol for “5 eyes”. A co-incidence? I think not… I’m surprised TV3 and UglyTruth haven’t spotted that yet…

    [minor edit for clarity]

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  51. stephieboy (3,414 comments) says:

    Grant,

    “Never mind, your conspiracies and the way you continually dodge any serious questions really amuse me. Thanks for the laugh.”

    Sums up UT to a Tee.

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  52. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    doggone7, you have proof he lied? Lets see it. You get thumbs down for asking an obvious ‘gotcha!’ question like a douche, instead of just making an accusation.

    No doubt you have posted the question over and over and over again, and people have answered you and you have ignored them and continue to spam threads with it.

    And no doubt you smugly think that the lack of response to the latest of 20 or so posts somehow proves you right. Pathetic.

    And further no doubt you will just respond saying that it is just a question, and why wont DPF answer it? But again, if you have something, then step up and present it. Everything else is just wanking.

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  53. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    “but John Campbell, if you’re reading this, perhaps you could tell us why you are SO desperate to see JK out of the picture, ”

    Because the parliamentary arm of the Labour Party is failing so badly, they had to escalate the election campaign to the media arm of the Labour Party. JC is now the unofficial campaign manager.

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  54. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Sums up UT to a Tee.

    Was the question I “dodged” a relevant one, idiot boy?

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  55. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    doggone7, you have proof he lied?

    He wasn’t the making the case that Key lied, he was simply noting how DPF wasn’t prepared to vouch for Key’s honesty.

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  56. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    As an aid to your reflection, consider the extent of the spying as described in the following interview with Russell Tice, the original NSA whistle-blower.

    Tice offers first-hand knowledge of eavesdropping on the phone calls, for example, of people like Barack Obama and Samuel Alito, plus their families and friends, prior to 2006, as well as on generals, media figures and a number of well-placed others, including at the State Dept.

    In a separate interview, Tice adds that “they went after members of Congress, both Senate and the House, especially on the intelligence committees and on the armed services committees and some of the–and judicial [committees].”

    He says he personally had papers ordering these surveillances in his hand.

    http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/18659-nsa-whistle-blower-russell-tice-is-the-top-echelon-of-the-intelligence-community-running-the-show

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  57. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    If the facts are as JC outline (and I can’t stand the man), then I don’t consider it a laughing matter.

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  58. duggledog (1,589 comments) says:

    Ties nicely in with DPF’s quote about RNZ funding compared to Mediaworks earlier today:

    “Mediaworks made a loss of $318 million two years ago and $90 million last year.”

    Campbell Live is one of Mediaworks’ flagships shows, and it broadcasts a load of student radio / capping stunt / conspiracy horse shit like this – and I bet the executives wonder why the f*** they can’t get those ratings up & turn a dollar.

    It’s because they are out of step with middle NZ. Exactly like Labour. If it wasn’t the the Block and The Rock and The Edge, Mediaworks would be stuffed.

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  59. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    New Zealand needs a serious current affairs program, say to run at 7pm each weeknight. All we have at the moment is Seven Sharp, and it really doesn’t cut it.

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  60. dime (10,134 comments) says:

    Bahahahahahahahahaha nutters everywhere.

    This has Bain threw written all over it.

    No one gives a fuck about the desperate lefts conspiracy theory

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  61. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    So your position is that it’s all just a strange coincidence, Kimble?

    My position, UT, is that there is no fucking “all” at all.

    Nothing to be “strange”. Nothing to be a “coincidence”.

    There could be literally anything to do with NZ US relations at the end your of timeline of Significant Events.

    This could all have been a plot to have the All Blacks play a test against The Eagles in Chicago later this year! Yes. It all makes sense now!

    Key LIVED in the US so he must be a CIA PUPPET! He once said jelly instead of JAM, so that proves he is a lizard person!

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  62. dime (10,134 comments) says:

    Stinking auto correct.. Bain thread

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  63. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    My position, UT, is that there is no fucking “all” at all.

    The first rule of disinfo.

    1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what you know, don’t discuss it — especially if you are a public figure, news anchor, etc. If it’s not reported, it didn’t happen, and you never have to deal with the issues.

    http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/the-25-rules-of-disinformation/

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  64. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    Here’s a conspiracy theory for you all. STEVEN JOYCE got Campbell to knacker Helen thereby ensuring JK won in 2008.

    When his little bumboy looked like he would be unemployed STEVEN JOYCE got National to bail Mediaworks out for $43,000,000.

    STEVEN JOYCE then forces Judith Collins into a compromising position with a glass of milk and a Peking Duck main.

    STEVEN JOYCE sets up JK with Dotcon.

    While JK is on the piss with Obama STEVEN JOYCE organises a successful coup and makes Campbell minister of propaganda! :)

    Tell me if any of you can see a common denominator here? :)

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  65. Grant (444 comments) says:

    Hi doggone.
    Not assuming to answer for DPF here at all, but for my part I don’t expect the PM to tell the truth ALL the time. Especially when it pertains to matters of national security.
    However I must say I’m fascinated by the way lefties insist on being let into every secret going, whether it be trade deals, GCSB, and who had dinner with who. To me, that’s just not the way the world works. What makes you feel that John Key has to tell you what he has discussed around national security, and who he discussed it with, just because you, or John Campbell or whoever asks him?
    Do you imagine for a moment that Clark told us everything that was going on during her tenure? I’m sure she has secrets, and I’m ok with that as that sort of stuff goes with her role, as it does with John Key’s.
    Do you think Churchill would have given away the locations of the D Day landings if some 40s equivalent of Martyn Bradbury had hounded him for the information?
    Maybe the issues aren’t of the same moment but the principle is the same.

    G

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  66. Philbo (22 comments) says:

    Care factor low.

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  67. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    He wasn’t the making the case that Key lied, he was simply noting how DPF wasn’t prepared to vouch for Key’s honesty.

    Thats why he gets down votes; for being a chicken shit fucktard.

    Oh no, he wasnt making the case that Key lied, that would be too much fucking work, and he may have to get his hands dirty by actually substantiating a fucking accusation. Far better to obviously try and be a clever cunt and just “ask a simple question”.

    Man-up, you dipshits.

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  68. tom hunter (5,095 comments) says:

    I’ve not watched Campbell Live – live – in years and the only time I’ve watched it at all was via KB when he got spanked by Key.

    But I’m not tempted this time no matter what DPF suggests. I don’t even like Key that much but this whole thing sounds completely unhinged.

    Is this really how low “investigative” journalism has sunk in NZ? Would more serious stories dealing with real problems – perhaps even involving numbers and graphs – really pass that far over the heads of the TV3 audience?

    Perhaps I should be grateful: while this sort of crap is pursued in all earnestness National have a chance to get real stuff done and …. oh … of course.

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  69. davidp (3,588 comments) says:

    I suspect that both Fletcher and Key are actually Americans, but grew up under deep CIA cover in Christchurch pretending to be NZers. They have kept in regular communication ever since, passing messages via dead drops and placing cryptic messages in the classified section of the NZ Herald. Key moved to the States for a while under a money trader cover story, but in actual fact he was completing his advanced CIA training at The Farm just outside Washington DC. Fletcher traveled the world pretending to work as a public servant, but in actual fact he was assassinating terrorists with a sniper rifle and occasionally with his ninja skills.

    Once Fletcher and Seal Team 6 carried out the extrajudicial killing of Osama bin Laden, Kim Dotcom moved up from his position as US Public Enemy Number 2. Something needed to be done. The NSA forced the old governor general to retire, threatening to release pictures of him in compromising positions with a goat. The British Ambassador passed a note to Key under the table at a dinner party, and that note told Key to appoint Fletcher to run the GCSB. While visiting Australia in 2011, Barack Obama slipped away from the Secret Service and met Fletcher in a Sydney park. He told him that his priority at GCSB would be to take care of Dotcom on behalf of the American music industry. Fletcher decided that the best way to do this would be to deport Dotcom’s nannies, and to have GCSB staff leave one-star reviews of Dotcom’s album on social media sites.

    Luckily Dotcom realised what was going on, and surrounded himself with MPs to stop Fletcher sneaking in to the Dotcom fuhrer-bunker and snapping his walrus-sized neck. Norman, Peters, Curran, and Harawira have selflessly formed a human shield protecting the Internet Party’s visionary-for-life. Even when his real bodyguards deserted him for paid work. Key and Fletcher continue to plot against Dotcom, even convincing his ex-stripper wife to leave him and lately parking a gaudily-painted Lada on the very steps of parliament.

    This all sounds quite incredible and hard to believe. But not as incredible or hard to believe as Campbell’s story.

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  70. stephieboy (3,414 comments) says:

    UT, this one from your link perfectly sums up conspiracy buffs like yourself,

    8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough “jargon” and “minutiae” to illustrate you are “one who knows”, and simply say it isn’t so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

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  71. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Again, why are you focusing on irrelevances when there is a clear case for interference by the US state, Grant?

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  72. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    Johnboy – “Tell me if any of you can see a common denominator here? ”

    Yes, we can. Who paid for the piss that they were drinking? Disgraceful. There needs to be an inquiry.

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  73. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    The first rule of disinfo.

    What the fuck are you talking about you gibbering bag of rotting dicks?

    You spout your fucking fantasies and then whine when people think your a space cadet?

    If its not reported it may have fucking happened, but do you know what else isnt reported? Every other fucking thing that didnt fucking happen.

    We seriously need to get science on to finding this fucking “creationist” gene and sterilise you people who have it. Maybe we can use the fucking contrails of planes to dispense the cure?

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  74. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    UT, this one from your link perfectly sums up conspiracy buffs like yourself,

    How could you tell the difference between relevant facts and “jargon” and “minutiae”, idiot boy?

    The fact here is that there is a clear association between Fletcher’s appointment, the warming in relations with the US, and the predatory US action against Dotcom.

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  75. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    STEVEN JOYCE CATERING LTD. of course onetrack. :)

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  76. stephieboy (3,414 comments) says:

    UT, warming relations with the US which suggest just prior they were on ice. ? How so .?
    “Predatory ” action against dot.com.?
    What precisely.?

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  77. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    What the fuck are you talking about

    I’m talking about you pretending that there is nothing to see regarding Fletcher’s appointment, Kimble.

    Typical shill tactic, refusing to face the facts.

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  78. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    Meh I’m over Fat Dotbitch now.

    Wanting to say jumped the shark but that would entail an effort second only to the Spruce Goose becoming airborn.

    Please just deport this giant sack of shit, so that justice may be done upon him.

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  79. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    Ugly – “and the predatory US action against Dotcom.”

    Meanwhile the extradition hearings drag their way through the glacial NZ justice system. Did John Key and Ian Fletcher give the black ops rendition team the wrong motorway exit for Coatsville? The “predatory” action looks like the standard extradition process myself.

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  80. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    The fact here is that there is a clear association between Fletcher’s appointment, the warming in relations with the US, and the predatory US action against Dotcom.

    UT I’m probably more ready than most to believe that but I’m afraid in this case I simply think correlation is not causation. I just can’t see that even if the evil music industry wanted to harrass Dotcom (which they clearly did), that therefore they needed to install a satrap into the top spot at the GCSB. I mean, there are any number of ways they could have targeted him they didn’t even need the GCSB to do it. Probably the only reason the FBI asked the GCSB for a hand was because they didn’t want us to get all embarrassed by someone coming into our own backyard and just doing whatever the heck they felt like without even asking us.

    I think really it’s Campbell utter despair at the appalling showing his beloved left is making. I think it’s shocking journalism and I frankly hope it gets him fired and he ends up as a showboy in some gay bar because no-one wants him for anything else, after this.

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  81. greenjacket (487 comments) says:

    Just watched the episode again.
    Wow.
    I would have loved to have seen Paul Maher’s face when he saw the flagship TV3 news programme crash and explode!

    .
    I bet that John Campbell is placed on ‘stress leave’ tomorrow.

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  82. doggone7 (833 comments) says:

    Kimble
    Wow, very touchy. So to make you happy I will agree with you and say I do have something. What it is is a question, a simple question.
    You don’t have to answer it if it’s too hard or you don’t feel like it. David Farrar is too busy ruminating on the other comedy show he missed tonight so I don’t think he will respond.

    Do you think John Key told the truth about his dealings with Ian Fletcher?

    Grant
    I don’t want to know about national security and appreciate the necessity of things needing to be kept under wraps, being keep secret. it’s about the process of the appointment of a guy to a senior role in New Zealand and being upfront about that. Why didn’t the Prime Minister (to use Kimble’s expression) ‘man-up’ and tell the truth?

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  83. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    STEVEN JOYCE will take him Reid!

    How is Hamilton? :)

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  84. marcw (255 comments) says:

    I’m down to the broker first thing – must increase holdings in RioTinto. Tinfoil hats going gangbusters.

    I kept waiting for John Campbell to wink, then smile and say April Fools.

    Sadly, it appears incredible, but they seem to believe this is real? They spent months researching this… just unbelievable.

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  85. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    The “predatory” action looks like the standard extradition process myself.

    The usual practice is to cloak the crime with lawful appearance, like calling the murder of innocents collateral damage in the context of eliminating a security threat.

    In Dotcom’s case the lawful appearance was of the enforcement of copyright law, but having the effect of predatory asset seizure when there was no unambiguous evidence that he had broken NZ law.

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  86. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    I’m talking about you pretending that there is nothing to see regarding Fletcher’s appointment, Kimble.

    I am not saying there was nothing untoward regarding the appointment. I wouldnt know.

    I have read the shit you have provided as “proof” and I am still saying I wouldnt know, because you have in absolutely no way made a case for something untoward to have happened.

    If you have something significant that proves anything untoward, then you have yet to show it.

    Instead of addressing that failure, you are claiming that the meaningless timeline combined with your own delusions, somehow makes for an iron-clad case of corruption.

    If I had proof that John Key was controlled from Washington I would present it. If that was the case then fuck that guy. But I dont have that proof, and it is beyond doubt that you dont either.

    So until you can prove otherwise, for all intents and purposes and for all that anyone should care, IT DIDN’T FUCKING HAPPEN.

    You’ve got nothing. Go home.

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  87. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    doggone7 – “Do you think John Key told the truth about his dealings with Ian Fletcher?”

    Yes. And Campbell’s complete disaster of a “expose” confirms it even more. The left are now just jousting at shadows. And it is starting to get beyond embarrassing.

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  88. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    What it is is a question, a simple question.

    Fucking told you so.

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  89. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    Ugly – Yes the public servants did seem to overstep the mark. Why are you blaming John Key for that? And now the assets that were seized are being returned. So where is the evil conspriracy?

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  90. doggone7 (833 comments) says:

    I’ll be presumptuous enough to take that erudite response as, “I think John Key is honest and would not lie or mislead the New Zealand public.” Good night.

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  91. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    Dotcons very appearance is an offence against all the efforts of every Dietitian in NZ.

    For that fact alone he should be deported on the first available aircraft with removable armrests! :)

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  92. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    I’m probably more ready than most to believe that but I’m afraid in this case I simply think correlation is not causation.

    I didn’t describe any causation, and I wouldn’t suggest that it was all done at the behest of the copyright industry.

    I think really it’s Campbell utter despair at the appalling showing his beloved left is making.

    That’s the problem with left-right politics, it’s too easy to blow it all off with as coming from the wrong ideological position.

    It’s simply an aspect of the US doctrine of full spectrum dominance – in this case getting someone with a compatible operational philosophy into a position where they can be used to advance US interests.

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  93. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    I have read the shit you have provided as “proof”

    You are overestimating your own self-importance, Kimble. I have no interest in trying to prove anything to you.

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  94. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Ugly – Yes the public servants did seem to overstep the mark. Why are you blaming John Key for that?

    Why do you think that I am blaming him?

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  95. tvb (4,518 comments) says:

    Easing Matepararere out of the GCSB job and placing in a civilian makes a change in focus for the GCSB. And yes the meeting with Clapper could have been instrumental in that with the new focus away from military intell. So they looked for a replacement and found one who is far more suitable than the old cold war military types who had the job in the past.

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  96. davidp (3,588 comments) says:

    RRM>Meh I’m over Fat Dotbitch now.

    It’s the size of Dotcom’s narcissism that makes this all so amazing. In reality, some FBI lawyers in the States thought they had enough evidence to convict Dotcom of fraud, and decided to extradite him. The NZ Police cooperated as per their regular processes, and as part of this process a GCSB technician helped them out with a mobile phone tracker gadget. None of this was important enough for the PM or the Minister of Police to be even notified. But Dotcom doesn’t want to be taken down by some low level police and a few American law enforcement types. Instead, he has to invent a giant conspiracy involving John Key, this Clapper bloke, Mataparae, and Obama. These people are all out to get him. Including Obama, personally. In fact Obama will subvert US foreign policy to extradite Dotcom.

    But the worst part of this is the way Dotcom’s minions have bought in to Dotcom’s vision of himself as the center of international affairs. Peters asked a number of parliamentary questions last year trying to establish that Key knew about Dotcom before the raid. Part of his reasoning seemed to be that Dotcom lives in a big house, and therefore Key MUST have heard about him. We now know that Peters was prompted to ask these questions after meeting with Dotcom, and I suspect that Dotcom recognised Peters as a feeble-minded halfwit who sees a conspiracy in every foreign meal, ferry journey, or Lake Taupo lodge. And who promises to take someone “down by Monday”, but instead manages to slur out some bizarre drunken lunacy that causes people to laugh at him. Now, Cambell has joined the ranks of Dotcom minions.

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  97. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Senior NSA veteran Bill Binney on why he thought the NSA switched from an automatic privacy-protecting encryption program to its current dragnet:

    “you can target Supreme Court Judges, other judges, Senators, Representatives, law firms and lawyers, and just anybody you don’t like … reporters included.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2014-05-19/nsa-spying-power-grab

    Tice adds that “they went after members of Congress, both Senate and the House, especially on the intelligence committees and on the armed services committees and some of the–and judicial [committees].”

    http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/18659-nsa-whistle-blower-russell-tice-is-the-top-echelon-of-the-intelligence-community-running-the-show

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  98. Yoza (1,913 comments) says:

    I think if anyone wants to understand how explosive this piece is they only need witness the hysterical reaction from apologists supporting the way New Zealand officials reflexively defer to US authority.
    Despite what many of you wished for in your letters to Santa, we are not yet a full blown banana republic run out of a Washington branch office in Canberra.

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  99. double d (225 comments) says:

    Davidp agree 100%.
    Narcissism at its grandest. I am the sun and you all orbit me…
    KDC believes all events are some sort of conspiracy around him and he has these sad enablers in Fisher/Campbell perpetuating this
    Just sad really

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  100. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (895 comments) says:

    I hope for once, John Key moves his backside off the couch and blasts the communist comrade John Campbell.

    Now wait for all the labour media – TV1, TV3, Red Radio, NZ Herald etc make this headline news tomorrow and John Key will move around as if nothing happened.

    He should front foot this and expose this little creep.

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  101. Fentex (1,040 comments) says:

    You don’t need to imagine a conspiracy, machinations in back rooms clouded by cigar smoke, to know friends and power that trusts in allies cooperate to achieve ambitions they share.

    John Key lived and prospered in the U.S, gaining wealth, friends and acquaintances at influential levels. He undoubtedly likes the U.S and thinks many things that worked in his interest there would be good for NZ.

    I have no doubt that there are secrets and masked going ons in government, I think it fairly obvious John Key maneuvered to have his friend appointed head of the GCSB. Only the naive could not believe visitors from the U.S government and it’s military and intelligence agencies and our officials include discussions of sensitive topics and secrets all participants would rather not be known and some of which would be contentious.

    But these are all par for the course, and Key is in his position mostly because sufficient people think him competent to leverage such things capably. Personally I don’t, I think John Key has ambitions for NZ I don’t share and I think he will on occasion confuse U.S interests for NZs.

    I think, for instance, he has made a mistake in admitting cooperation with the U.S in prosecuting it’s drone assassination program as that is not in NZs interests and exposes him to criminal charges and NZ to international contempt.

    This does not require that Key be a marionette of the U.S government but that he chooses a close alliance, probably like many politicians calculating that the gain outweighs the pain.

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  102. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    Fentex (12.25 post), don’t take such a gutless outlook.

    We have just had a mosque shut down in Auckland because extremists wanted to campaign to take Muslims to the Middle East to fight alongside groups that include al Qaeda. I understand these same extremists are proselytising in Auckland.

    Why do you Leftists hate America so? If Islamic extremists took over in NZ, our Far Lefties would quickly become extinct, as happened to their fellow travellers in Afghanistan. Is the anti-Americanism just a habit, or is there some sort of kickback coming to core far leftist groups from the Middle East along the lines the money that used to come from the Soviet Union and from Mao?

    The West needs counter-intelligence to survive. In the internet age, we desperately need electronic counter-intelligence. IMHO, tiny NZ is lucky to be included in the communications counter-intelligence set-up with four considerably more powerful nations (militarily and economically).

    Of course counter-intelligence can be misused by rogue elements. Many of us suspect the spying on National under Don Brash was by a rogue leftist specialist in the GCSB. I don’t agree with you that passing on information that may wipe out Al Qaeda is misuse, however.

    As for TV3’s Campbell: he has just blown away the advantage he had gained over the 7pm competitor during a weak time at TVNZ. Campbell’s show on the GCSB was long-winded, pretentious, hollow, and the most boring TV in NZ for years. It was even less exciting than an Ian Wishart tome on Cook Island tax breaks. On top of that, Campbell’s show was conspiracy theory almost to a certifiable level.

    And what is behind the far left’s paranoia about drones? They are one of the few effective counter weapons to terrorists’ roadside bombs and suicide bombers. I bet a few million Nigerian parents wish drones were active in their country, first tracking the enslaved schoolgirls, and second, eventually killing the scum who enslaved them.

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  103. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    When is TV3’s owner going to repay NZ taxpayers for the taxes forgiven so that the company could come out of receivership.

    Pay it all back, or stop whingeing about the Government that let you off the hook!

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  104. SPC (5,787 comments) says:

    It’s either ignoring the issue raised or ridiculing those who raise it, to avoid making any denial …

    ——————————————————————————————————————

    ‘First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.’

    Widely, attributed, incorrectly, to Mohandas Gandhi, describing the stages of a winning strategy of nonviolent activism. There is no record of Gandhi saying this. A close variant of the quotation first appears in a 1918 US trade union address by Nicholas Klein:

    “And, my friends, in this story you have a history of this entire movement. First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you. And that, is what is going to happen to the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America.”

    Proceedings of the Third Biennial Convention of the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America (1918), p. 53

    http://www.climatebites.org/climate-communication-metaphors-and-soundbites/skepticism-credibility/skepticism-a-denial-general/first-they-ignore-you-laugh-at—-then-you-win

    ——————————————————————————————————————

    Thus the Emperor wearing no clothes and the unclothing of the naked man who would serve his Emperor on the UNSC.

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  105. Fentex (1,040 comments) says:

    And what is behind the far left’s paranoia about drones? They are one of the few effective counter weapons to terrorists’ roadside bombs and suicide bombers.

    They do nothing to counter such weapons. You seem to confuse Iraqi resistance to occupation with the Taliban in Pakistan and possible Al Qaeda plotters in Yemen where drones are deployed.

    It is obviously hoped by the deployers of the drones that ringleaders and organizers of attacks elsewhere will be eliminated or cowed by the threat of death. I think that hope is in vain as the villainy of killing the innocent will, apart from recruiting replacements faster than isolated drone assaults will kill them, isolate the criminal assailants from potential allies and friendly aid.

    When first used in Pakistan, though details are hard to discern due to difficulties in obtaining honest and accurate reports, the drones were murdering somewhere from two to four (I’m happy to discard the highest estimates of ten) to one innocents for every probable enemy killed.

    It was enough to cause the programs political masters to halt it until protocols designed, and since somewhat successful, at minimising the number of bystanders were enacted. Innocents are still killed by it.

    Extra judicial killing is problematic though sometimes understandable; acts of war (which firing missiles in someone elses country is) are another matter and not entirely because they will certainly kill innocents.

    I believe in the rule of law.

    I support the rule of law.

    I would fight to defend it. This is not a ‘left’ position, I would never proclaim myself a ‘lefty’. It is a civilized position, and I do consider myself a civilized person.

    The drone programs are not lawful, they are not wise. They are an attempt to use unanswerable force to eliminate and intimidate an opponent they are unlikely to succeed against while also being a bold political statement of arrogance and hatred that will perpetuate rather than address violent threats.

    I object to my taxes contributing to it, I object to my government cooperating with it and I do not connect that objection to any other perceived political leanings of that government (except those obviously implied by the relevant policy).

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  106. Manolo (14,082 comments) says:

    For all to see: the outcome of the unholy alliance between a crook and a Green hack.

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  107. Psycho Milt (2,419 comments) says:

    Meh. If Key didn’t want people to assume he was up to something, he shouldn’t have lied about his dealings with Fletcher. He did, and they are – that’s politics..

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  108. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    It would appear that is is possible to play connect the dots while wearing a straight jacket.

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  109. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    Fentex – What do you mean a close alliance with the US? Last week the left was whining that Key was too close to China. I wish they would make up their mind.

    Or, maybe, just maybe, Key and National simply wants NZ to remain on good terms with both countries to help macimise the amount of kiwi product that can be sold to them. No conspiracy (to achieve what?), just maintaining good relations with as many potential customers as possible. In other words, good account management.

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  110. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    This mongrel Campbell should be thrown off the air, he is a slimy, wimpy, left-wing piece of s..t who needs a damn good panel and paint.

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  111. SPC (5,787 comments) says:

    One Track, yes I agree that our foreign policy is based on good account management, but I have no idea why that makes us suitable for the UNSC.

    We are no champion for the little nations around the South China sea being bullied by China and its claim of hegemony over waters to the coasts of these nations, and we participate in the surveillance of governments and civilians around the world. This as part of a security axis that is barely accountable to democratic constraint, let alone any international transparency.

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  112. rouppe (984 comments) says:

    I spent the whole time waiting for the thing that would blow the top off this. I’m still waiting.

    I do think there is a gap between what jk has said and what happened. It hasn’t changed my mind on him, or likely to change my vote, but we all here hate above all else people lying about stuff.

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  113. martinh (1,272 comments) says:

    So DPF you think John Key met the GCSB four days before this major first NZ FBI effort was to begin and they didnt mention DOtcom once.You have just shown yourself to be a naive joke

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  114. Paulus (2,672 comments) says:

    Expect Guttersnipe Winston on Campbell today explaining how he knows Jimmy Savile.

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  115. doggone7 (833 comments) says:

    martinh

    You may have seen the initial questions in Parliament to Mr Key about Ian Fletcher. From there to bits in the TV3 thing last night anyone with even a modicum of intelligence could conclude the Prime Minister lied about their contact and relationship. That is something many do not want to face up to and so the smokesscreen of “national security” is thrown up, the importance of our relationship with the USA and of course the ‘rabid left attitude of Campbell’.
    The best diversion of course is the igmorant suggestion that the truth be avoided by sending the one actually putting the truth out to the panelbeater!

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  116. rouppe (984 comments) says:

    They have refused to answer repeated questions about what they discussed at this dinner.

    The media’s arrogance is getting to the point where they seem to believe they have the right to answers to any question they want.

    If anyone demanded to know who I was having dinner with in a private home and what we talked about I wouldn’t just not say anything, I’d tell them to go **** themselves

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  117. TheContrarian (1,091 comments) says:

    “They say they’ve been working on the story for three years. ”

    I’m fairly sure they mean “this is a story three years in the making” rather than they having been working on it for three years.

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  118. Rich Prick (1,729 comments) says:

    I didn’t realise Nicky Hager was writing his special kind of fiction for Campbell Live nowadays.

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  119. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    RP: Hager, Campbell, Norman, all one of a kind . . . effen mongrels.

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  120. alloytoo (575 comments) says:

    I think it’s obvious to everyone that last night’s show was a blatant attempt by NZ cricket to distract people from the player X fiasco.

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  121. Sinnic (2 comments) says:

    “…In reality, some FBI lawyers in the States thought they had enough evidence to convict Dotcom of fraud, and decided to extradite him. The NZ Police cooperated as per their regular processes, and as part of this process a GCSB technician helped them out with a mobile phone tracker gadget. None of this was important enough for the PM or the Minister of Police to be even notified…”

    This is what the media continue to ignore

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  122. Charles Finny (9 comments) says:

    Thank you for writing this piece David. The programme really got my blood boiling last night.

    I am surprised that this multi-year research project did not throw up some other useful facts.

    How about the fact that Ian Fletcher had signalled his willingness to return to NZ somewhat before the GCSB role came up. I think that you will find that he was interested in replacing Simon Murdoch as MFAT CEO and that he did rather well in that selection process. In the end John Allen came through, but the facts that Ian Fletcher was interested in a return, and that he was an obviously very strong candidate for a senior leadership role in the NZ public service were very much front of mind for people like Murdoch, Wevers, the State Services Commissioner, and externally focused Ministers. That he was thought of when GCSB came up is no surprise. It seemed totally logical. No conspiracy here whatsoever.

    I am sure the fact that he had held a Top Secret security clearance in NZ and the UK for many years would have been helpful. That he had done a series of high profile jobs well in the UK, EU and Australia would likewise have been a factor.

    The impression I had at the time was that a number of senior public servants were delighted that someone as good as Ian could be attracted back. The view seemed to be – let’s try him at GCSB and see where his career might lead.

    I see nothing sinister in the GCSB Director being from a non-military background. GCSB began life as part of the military establishment, but the role has changed substantially. A non-military Director is all part of the growing up process. Ian’s background is perfect for the first non-military Director. He began professional life working with Foreign Affairs, serving one offshore posting. He then moved to DTI in the UK where he did a number of roles, most of which were external in focus. He was seconded into the EU’s DG Trade and again there did a core trade policy job. His background is perfect. There is no conspiracy.

    Yes, Ian’s brother (who I also worked with for a few years in Wellington at DTI) was at school with John Key, and yes, John may have met Ian a few times as a result – both as a school kid, and adult. But so what?

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  123. doggone7 (833 comments) says:

    Charles Finny “But so what?”

    No quibbles. So what made Mr Key not be open an honest about his part in the appointment of Mr Fletcher and his associations with him?

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  124. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    Fentex’s position at 1.50 is the position of a religious pacifist in America of 150 years ago who would not resist Comanche raiders with a rifle because it was uncivilised. Sadly, he couldn’t use a bow, so he was scalped.

    Against drones, Fentex offers no alternative strategy for taking the fight to ultra-Islamic terrorists. He would accept that, rather than use drones, tens of thousands young Western soldiers are killed or have their limbs blown off by terrorists who may not have drones but have plenty of Cemtex or whatever they use for their suicide bombs and roadside ambushes.

    The young volunteer soldiers are mainly bogan types in the minds of leftists like Fentex, so that’s okay in the Western lefties’ weak minds. Our working poor can be wiped out, because Greens and Far Lefties are rare in the army.

    What next to these fuckwitted leftists who want to ban drones to protect terrorists? Telescopic sights on rifles? Body-armour kit? Helicopters?

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  125. stephieboy (3,414 comments) says:

    I think this post from TM sums up the issues pretty succinctly ,

    “How can anyone produce so much hot air in one hour? Campbell seems to revel in this sort of ghost-chasing. The fact that all this apparently happened three years ago seems to prove the irrelevance of this “huge amount of work by the TV3 production team”.
    The GCSB saga surely has run its course… who could possibly be still interested in this nonsense?”

    At the heart of it the PM meets with the head of the GCSB on security related issues a few times as he is bound to do. Its part of the job description. No different to Helen Clark and other PMs before.
    Some alleged apparent coincidences = a Conspiracy. Well thats deluded Conspiracy thinking for you.!

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  126. Yoza (1,913 comments) says:

    stephieboy (1,464 comments) says:
    May 21st, at 12:06 pm

    Some alleged apparent coincidences = a Conspiracy. Well thats deluded Conspiracy thinking for you.!

    So I’m guessing you’re going with coincedence theory on this one stephie: A series of coincedent events which, when placed collectively and chronologically ordered in front of an impartial observer demonstrate a dubious use of state resources to subject New Zealanders to US surveilance operations.

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  127. srylands (417 comments) says:

    If this story had legs it would have been picked up by the media today. It would be a fire storm. That has not happened.

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  128. Yoza (1,913 comments) says:

    The young volunteer soldiers are mainly bogan types in the minds of leftists like Fentex, so that’s okay in the Western lefties’ weak minds. Our working poor can be wiped out, because Greens and Far Lefties are rare in the army.

    The best way to keep our soldiers from being killed by Muslim insurgents is by not involving ourselves in US instigated bloodbaths in predominantly Muslim countries.

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  129. Fentex (1,040 comments) says:

    What do you mean a close alliance with the US? Last week the left was whining that Key was too close to China. I wish they would make up their mind.

    I speak for myself, not a political allegiance. I applaud John Key’s bridge from NZ to China and the U.S. I think that is very useful to NZ and something any successors of his should aim to maintain, possibly recruiting him to aid in doing so.

    That has not precluded a close alliance in political and military activities with the U.S that I think commits NZ to policy and actions primarily motivated by U.S and not NZ interests.

    It will affect our position in treaty negotiations (such as the TPP) where we will be asked who our friends are and on what line we wish the world and it’s trade orientated. If we want to keep such negotiations open to our own interests we must not entangle ourselves in alliances that too closely bind us to others fates.

    Doing so will wash away that bridge we wish to trade across.

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  130. stephieboy (3,414 comments) says:

    Yoza,

    What US initiated bloodbaths exactly.? ?

    A series of meetings by the PM with the head of the GCSB equates to a conspiracy.??

    Sheesh.!

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  131. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    A good post and comments on this at Public Address: http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-circumstance-and-coincidence

    There’s a number of puzzling changing stories and gaps and discrepancies in stories.

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  132. Manolo (14,082 comments) says:

    In all honesty: Why would anyone waste half an hour watching that hack Campbell?
    The Green creep should be avoided at all costs.

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  133. Fentex (1,040 comments) says:

    Fentex’s position at 1.50 is the position of a religious pacifist in America of 150 years ago who would not resist Comanche raiders with a rifle because it was uncivilised. Sadly, he couldn’t use a bow, so he was scalped.

    Do not presume to speak for me. I am not a pacifist. I am well trained and practiced in the use of firearms, I am willing to use them to defend myself.

    I can accept the unfortunate death of innocents due to the exigencies of war. I do not accept the murder of innocents absent existential threat.

    Against drones, Fentex offers no alternative strategy for taking the fight to ultra-Islamic terrorists.

    If you mean to ask me what I would do to address the threat of Islamic inspired violence, should I have the authority, I have often answered that question. And it isn’t things the U.S is not doing – well, except I would be more willing to aim at the funding and source of inspiration from Saudi Arabia (which exports hates more properly directed at it’s own rulers) and to apply pressure to Israel to resolve the Palestinian question (I have a theory, too long to go into here, that I hope would build a strong Israel and defang propaganda using Palestinians as distraction from tyrannical rule of Arabs).

    The U.S supports the African Union, it’s state department supplied considerable expertise and support to what we know as The Arab Spring. These are policies I agree with, I would likely contribute more to them and similar.

    And I find myself in a bind on the issue – I’m not likely to be in a position of authority to construct more policies because my ego doesn’t require I assert my authority. I do not have the drive for authority (otherwise I would be active in politics). So I cannot assert what is doable having not practised politics – the art of the possible.

    Someone who believes that authority must be deferred to may conclude that means absent taking power oneself one must bow to authorities decision, and that those who do not grasp for power should not presume to question it.

    I would hope people notice that is essentially an elaborate statement of might makes right. I am not so nihilistic.

    Finally (for now) Islamic inspired violence is more of a threat to Muslims than us (they suffer most the misfortune of rule by Islam), I would hope to free them from such. I don’t think carelessly killing a number of them is a good way to go about that.

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  134. Fentex (1,040 comments) says:

    It has occurred to me there is a concise way to sum up my opinions about the drone strikes.

    I think there are three aspects to them;moral, political and legal.

    Moral:
    I think people can disagree over the morality of this use of violence, but the guaranteed death of innocents when killing people condemned for their disregard of innocents undermines justifying it.

    Political:
    I think this has the greatest room for disagreement for it’s incalculable possibilities. I judge it is an error in a broader political struggle to alienate potential allies through the arrogance of the attacks.

    Legal:
    Here there is no question. These attacks are illegal. And I believe those who sanction such illegality are foolishly undermining the rule of law and damaging it from positions of privilege to the detriment of their citizens.

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  135. mikenmild (11,777 comments) says:

    I’m not sure that all drone attacks are illegal.

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  136. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    Fentex posted at 1.15:

    I can accept the unfortunate death of innocents due to the exigencies of war.

    Did you mean you “cannot” accept these deaths, which seems to be at the heart of your argument against drones? If so, in pragmatic terms that makes you a pacifist. There is no war without death of innocents.

    If it is a matter of degree, Fentex how do assess the difference in death of innocents in a conventional war with tanks, mines, etc from war by drones and guided missiles generally? All war guarantees the death of innocents. I suspect conventional war, such as the Red Army’s drive to Germany, is more devastating for civilians than drone strikes against terrorist leaders.

    On rereading your post I note you talk of “absence of existential threat”. The world is awash with ultra-Islamic actions, not threats.

    Your take on the legal aspect is interesting, Fentex. The Left and the pacifists are using the law to persecute former soldiers in Britain. This has helped stimulate an unusual rise in support for more extreme political parties, as the EC elections will likely soon show. Doubtlessly, laws will change.

    If it was only an either or choice, I would sooner have in a prison a handful of the more active pacifists than persecution of the overwhelmingly working class veterans of Western regular forces. By more active pacifists, I mean the type who attacked the Waihopai electronic communications facility, and who have attacked military aircraft overseas. That is, the type who would sabotage by force decisions and policies of our democratically elected government.

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  137. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    A new term arises for the work of Leftists in the media, such as Campbell: droning on.

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  138. Fentex (1,040 comments) says:

    Did you mean you “cannot” accept these deaths, which seems to be at the heart of your argument against drones? If so, in pragmatic terms that makes you a pacifist. There is no war without death of innocents.

    I meant can. In a war properly fought in defence or declared against avowed enemies harm to innocents will occur. Should such a war be necessary such tragedy must be borne.

    You appear to think me inconsistent because you accept the drone attacks are part of such a war. They are not. They are an assassination program authorised in secret sentencing people to death without trial by commission of acts of war against foreign nations that involve unavoidable murder of innocents.

    If you can’t distinguish such from properly declared warfare I think you miss an important distinction, and overlook the implications of such. If you accept this war, then you are compelled to accept the opposition is fighting a war too and I don’t think supporters of the drone program would enjoy the consequences of such.

    Your take on the legal aspect is interesting

    It’s not my take. It is Christof Heyns, the UN Special Rapporteur after consideration of the U.S’s claim they are defensive acts of proactive warfare.

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  139. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    Fentex (3.42) – I think that under your criteria, Britain’s assassination of Heydrich in Prague in June 1942 was a war crime.

    To me, that is a wrong view.

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  140. stephieboy (3,414 comments) says:

    I see DPF has also picked up on the PM’s appropriately derisive comments about John Campbell Live ,

    Heh Key on Campbell Live: “tomorrow he should do Obama not being born in America, and Friday on 9/11 and why the Americans were behind that”

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  141. Fentex (1,040 comments) says:

    This is about the third time I recall a coincidence of a comment on Kiwiblog occurring after I’ve recently watched a documentary on the relevant subject.

    Heydrich was a SS Obergruppenführer during a declared war between Germany and the United Kingdom and killed by injuries sustained from a grenade thrown into his car by Czeck and Slovak soldiers.

    That his attackers were out of uniform may have made them liable for criminal charges should they have been captured and tried as many were after that war.

    Not many people would cry for Heydrich, but plenty would for the occupants of the town of Lidice. Lidice was razed and all it’s adult males killed with the women and children deported to Nazi concentration camps. Estimates of deaths due to reprisals converge on 5,000.

    You may judge assassinating him was so urgent their fates were worth it and if it lessened any of the evil perpetuated by the fascists. But that wasn’t the purpose of his assassination. It, and it’s consequences, occurred as a political ploy to legitimise the Czech government in exile.

    So I find the idea that laws be damned violence in good cause trumps them when the example is of political ambition an inadequate rebuttal.

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  142. stephieboy (3,414 comments) says:

    Fentex, its my view that Drone attacks are not part of an assassination program per se but represent the evolution of warfare no more callous or impersonal than the use of field artillery or maxim machine guns in WWI. Continued on in WW2 with the added use of aerial bombing and the new warfare of pilotless flying bombs and rockets (V1s and V2s ).
    All these weapons were not known for precision accuracy ( with often serious and extensive civilian casualties and deaths ) but Drone attacks are somehow more immoral.
    The assassination of Heydrich was much more than an attempt to legitimize the Czech government in exile. it was an attempt to strike a blow against the tyrannical rule of the”Hangman of Bohemia ” and especially a reminder to the one one In Berlin that his regime was not invulnerable.
    Recall aslo Heydrich was responsible for implementing the notorious and evil “fog and night “decree not forgetting the blueprint for the Final Solution to the Jewish question at Wansee.

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  143. Fentex (1,040 comments) says:

    its my view that Drone attacks are not part of an assassination program per se but represent the evolution of warfare no more callous or impersonal than the use of field artillery or maxim machine guns in WW

    I think you make a mistake that confuses intent with action and sidelines the value of legal process. It is a mistake that erodes your legal protections. If you accept extra-judicial acts against presumed criminals because you trust authority one day you may have to accept your own extra-judicial treatment at someone’s corrupt or vengeful hand.

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  144. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    Fentex, in your 7.27 you seem to assume there is an international legal jurisdiction equivalent to the legal jurisdiction within a civilised country.

    Merely joining the United Nations hasn’t created that.

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  145. Fentex (1,040 comments) says:

    Signing treaties formalises laws between nations, and membership of the U.N involves several.And beside those others pre-exist or exist concurrently.

    NZ and the U.S have agreed with others that acts of war are only permitted in defence or by U.N security council agreement.

    And the U.S claim that their drone program is self defence fails (as linked earlier). Not to mention, in the U.S particular case their constitutions explicit ban on Bills Of Attainder outlaws much of the progam.

    I suspect peolle having diffilculty admitting and requiring much argument to demonstrate that killing peoole without trial, especially by bombs that kill bystanders in foreign nations is not a legal thing.are wishfullfilly denying the obvious in the belief ultimate good is acheived in their interest.

    I think that is a mistake.

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  146. Left Right and Centre (2,997 comments) says:

    Wow – about thirty yellow comments – that’s like the switchboard being jammed !!

    Four hidden due to low comment rating – nice. Six downtick driven hot debates.

    So – the thread caught alight with tall ‘yellow flames’ ?

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  147. Mark Craig (31 comments) says:

    Fentex much as I hate to admit it I thinkl I am in complete agreement with you re the Arab /Israeli situation .Good lord a right wing nut job who can actually see the way to ameliorate an intractable situation ,I am completely gasted in my flabbers .Whatever next ,a right winger admitting that orthodox Jews could be as difficult and uncompromisining as Hamas arse wipes to deal with.
    Shurely not

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