Well done the moderates

May 21st, 2014 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

Lincoln Tan at the Herald reports:

A mosque in Auckland has been shut down indefinitely following violent attacks and the declaration of jihad, or holy war, against private security staff hired to guard the premises.

Bill Frost, who leads the Global Security Intelligence team at the Avondale Islamic Centre, was assaulted twice on Sunday and said he feared for his life and the safety of his family after one worshipper threatened him with jihad.

High fences, seven security guards and two police officers were yesterday seen on the site as worshippers were turned away from afternoon prayers.

The New Zealand Muslim Association, which owns the property, said it was shutting down the centre until further notice because of safety concerns.

The centre’s administrator was brutally beaten two weeks ago after issuing trespass orders to a Salafist imam and some of his supporters, and spent 10 days in hospital with fractures and eye injuries.

Mr Frost said he was assaulted twice as he was handing out six trespass orders to people causing trouble at the Blockhouse Bay Rd mosque on Sunday.

There has been an ongoing battle against a small number of extremists. It’s been massively pleasing to see those who run the Avondale Islamic Centre, rejecting the extremists. I’ve often said the only solution to extreme , is moderate .

The extremists claim they are not extremists. But the fact they respond to the trespass orders with violence and threats of jihad, suggests that the NZ Muslim Association has judged the situation correctly. They should be congratulated.

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109 Responses to “Well done the moderates”

  1. kowtow (8,470 comments) says:

    When do the extremists get deported?

    Who are they?

    Who let them into Aotearoa,formerly New Zealand?

    That’s the real story. Move along, nothing to see here.

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  2. Zebulon (114 comments) says:

    The moderates are good people and we should encourage them. Most Muslims are good but it is a small minority who give the rest a bad name. As for the extremists, why do we have to tolerate their presence in this country? Beatings + fatwas should equal an immediate expulsion.

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  3. Ryan Sproull (7,144 comments) says:

    When do the extremists get deported?

    Who are they?

    Who let them into Aotearoa,formerly New Zealand?

    That’s the real story. Move along, nothing to see here.

    “Who let the moderates into the the country? Where can we get more of them?”

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  4. Huevon (222 comments) says:

    The so-called “extremists” are simply following the clear teachings of Islam.

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  5. tom hunter (4,838 comments) says:

    I’d also like to know how the moderates argue theologically against the extremists, presumably by pointing out parts of the Quran that contradict what the extremists are claiming?

    Something like an Islamic version of this scene from The West Wing.

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  6. Ryan Sproull (7,144 comments) says:

    I like this scene from The West Wing, Tom:

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  7. Northland Wahine (667 comments) says:

    I’m always a little weary about claiming moderate Islam combats extreme. It allows Islam thru the back door rather than breaking down the front.

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  8. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Time for a bit of deporting. We have no need, nor responsibility, for Muslim murderers.

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  9. Yoza (1,872 comments) says:

    tom hunter (4,115 comments) says:
    May 21st, 2014 at 10:10 am

    I’d also like to know how the moderates argue theologically against the extremists

    It must be made increasingly difficult when confronted with the mountain of Muslim corpses created by the West’s drive to secure the planet’s energy reserves. Add to that the extrajudicial drone strike killings celebrated in the main stream media and the moderate’s position becomes less tenable, which in turn creates more extremists – allowing bigots like Northland Wahine to smear a vast swathe of humanity as some kind of creeping menace.

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  10. tom hunter (4,838 comments) says:

    I’ve never read more than a few parts of the bible or the quran or any religious book. They just hold zero interest for me, which is why I ask. You’ve got a theological background Ryan, quite a deep one I think. Don’t you know, or at least have some idea?

    Of course part of the problem with that Bartlett scene is that he’s simply demonstrating that those aspects of the Bible are ignored in a modern society, even by religious people, as a way of demonstrating that the parts of Leviticus dealing with homosexuality are being cherry-picked but people who can claim that the Bible backs them up. But he does not actually get into any theological debate as to why Leviticus should be junked entirely (the New Testament junking the Old Testament ?). Presumably I’m asking too much of a TV show, or a newspaper report.

    If moderate Muslims are cherry-picking which parts of the quran they’ll follow and which they will ignore – in the same way that Christians do with the bible in order to live in the modern world – then that’s fine with me as practical solution. But I would like to know if there are theological counter-arguments to the Islamic Fundamentalists/Extremists.

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  11. OlderChas (24 comments) says:

    I sincerely hope that the perpetrators of the attacks and threats are dealt with severely in the very near future. I would hate New Zealand (also referred to by some as Aoteoroa) never develops Police “no go zones” such as those in England, France etc. IMO deportation is the only answer.

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  12. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Bill Frost, who leads the Global Security Intelligence team at the Avondale Islamic Centre, was assaulted twice on Sunday and said he feared for his life and the safety of his family after one worshipper threatened him with jihad…. …The centre’s administrator was brutally beaten two weeks ago after issuing trespass orders to a Salafist imam and some of his supporters, and spent 10 days in hospital with fractures and eye injuries…. …Mr Frost said he was assaulted twice as he was handing out six trespass orders to people causing trouble at the Blockhouse Bay Rd mosque on Sunday.

    Assaults? Beatings? Fractures? Hospitalisation? Threats?

    So… how many were arrested? When will they appear in Court? Are they residents of NZ or ‘visitors’? Can they be deported?

    So many questions. But very few answers…..

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  13. hubbers (139 comments) says:

    The only way to save us from extreme imaginary cloud super friend believers is moderate imaginary cloud super friend believers.

    Well that’s a victory for rationality and critical thinking.

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  14. Redbaiter (8,823 comments) says:

    Isn’t this just part of the vibrant cultural diversity the progs all worship with unbridled enthusiasm at the same time as they show complete and utter contempt for their own culture.

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  15. Manolo (13,767 comments) says:

    Ah, the peaceful followers of the vile and barbaric Islam.
    By the way, where is UT to defend them?

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  16. tom hunter (4,838 comments) says:

    Thank you for that theological argument Yoza, but I was asking for a point of view from within the Islamic religious faith, rather than that of Marx.

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  17. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    Yoza, I’d have to agree. And for those who question the existence of mainstream Muslims opposed to fundamentalist extremists within their particular world faith, sometimes the costs of defying those extremists can be fatal. For example, one of the primary targets of Nigeria’s murderous Boko Haram cult is moderate imams and most international Muslim organisations have condemned them. Young non-fundamentalist Muslim women were amongst those abducted by the cult.

    I’m afraid that fundamentalist extremists exist in all global faiths. Would those espousing deporting those who espouse violent militancy in this instance also apply it to domestic New Zealand supporters of right-wing Hindu paramilitary organisations who engage in sectarian violence against Muslims and Sikhs in India, if such individuals should be found to exist? What about Sri Lankan Sinhalese or Burmese Buddhists who might have engaged in Sri Lankan war crimes or in Burmese sectarian violence? If so, what about fanatical US fundamentalist Protestants or conservative Catholics who espouse anti-abortion terrorism if such should visit New Zealand at some time in the future? It’s anti-pluralist, sectarian and fanatical fundamentalists of all faiths that are the problems. Please, let’s not sanitise the history of Christianity or its past and present excesses and own fundamentalist pathologies.

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  18. Odakyu-sen (652 comments) says:

    I am a little leery of any ethnic/religious group that acts as a closed system, only permitting social interaction and marriage among its members (local or brought in from overseas for the purposes of marriage). Such a mindset encourages the “them vs. us” attitude, both within the group and in the broader community.

    This is exacerbated by the wearing of clothing that functions to “mark” them as members of their group.

    What are some examples of such ethnic/religious groups in New Zealand who really, really don’t like to mix with outsiders?

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  19. ROJ (121 comments) says:

    Ah Odakyu-sen, you mean the Exclusive Brethren?

    Well, at least their women are required to wear clothing which marks them as non-mainstream. The men get to wear the same camoflage as the rest of us

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  20. Ryan Sproull (7,144 comments) says:

    I’ve never read more than a few parts of the bible or the quran or any religious book. They just hold zero interest for me, which is why I ask. You’ve got a theological background Ryan, quite a deep one I think. Don’t you know, or at least have some idea?

    Oh, sorry, Tom, I didn’t realise it was a serious question. That’s not a jab – I just misread you.

    The simplest answer is that within Islam, just as within Christianity, pointing at scripture does not always make a compelling argument, because how scripture is interpreted and what kind of authority it holds can vary from denomination to denomination.

    For example, there are Christians who believe that the Bible is the directly inspired Word of God and that it should be interpreted by the individual Christian informed by his or her own relationship with God. And there are Christians who believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God as recognised by the authority of the Catholic Church, whose authority to recognise the Bible’s authority is founded on apostolic succession (the Pope being able to theoretically trace a lineage of teaching right back to the Apostles and therefore to Jesus), and that the Bible is therefore correctly interpreted by the Church’s official teaching.

    In other words, Christian 1 can say, “The Bible means this, because I am interpreting it in the light of my own relationship with God,” and Christian 2 can say, “You’re wrong about what the Bible means, because you are not in agreement with the Catholic catechism.”

    In the case of these “moderate” and “extremist” Muslims, they don’t just differ on the interpretation of the Qu’ran or the Hadiths (which are a second source of written authority in Islam) – they differ on questions like “Can there ever be any innovation in Islam since the Prophet’s time?” and “Should you interpret the Qu’ran for yourself or defer to the authority of an Imam?”

    So even though the two groups, by virtue of both being Islamic, refer to the Qu’ran in some way in their faith, the ways in which they do so can differ so much that there’s practically no common ground for the kind of theological discussion you’re suggesting. Their differences may go so far back to foundational philosophical principles that one group of Muslims would have a better chance of a theological discussion with Christians, Jews or Baha’i than with a particular other group of Muslims.

    (As I said above, the same is true of Christianity.)

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  21. altiora (279 comments) says:

    ChardonnayGuy: There is much truth in what you have said about extremism being prevalent in other religions too, but to equate them to Muslim extremism is to blatantly ignore thee quality and quantity of Muslim extremism. Just type in “beheading” into youtube and tell me which religion is involved.

    And I am not a Christian, but I do think you betray a certain western leftist prejudice of equating Christianity as being inherently bad. There is nothing in the New Testament that exhorts people to kill others, the same cannot be said for Islam. Your example of some the anti-abortion terrorists is a shockingly poor analogy: the membership of that murderous group are tiny.

    I recall seeing a survey of attitudes among Muslims in different countries and, especially in the Middle east, the shocking fact was that a majority supported the principle that it was acceptable to kill to “protect Islam”. Time to wake up. If we don’t our secular civilisation is under serious threat.

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  22. kowtow (8,470 comments) says:

    Problem with a “moderate” is he can be upset or offended so readily ,generally by events and people a very long way away from their own circumstances……….

    ……..then they go round blowing up buses,nightclubs,embassies,authors, newspapers, marathons,schools……you get the picture.

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  23. Huevon (222 comments) says:

    @ Chardonnay Guy

    Check your bigotry!

    I’m what might be termed a “conservative Catholic” and I wouldn’t support anti-abortion violence in any shape or form, nor would any Catholic leader or apologist. Enough killing is already happening in those clinics.

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  24. kowtow (8,470 comments) says:

    elaycee

    So many questions,so few answers……

    Ah but the MSM don’t want to be “offensive” or “racist” by doing their job and duty which is to ask questions.

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  25. Ryan Sproull (7,144 comments) says:

    Problem with a “moderate” is he can be upset or offended so readily ,generally by events and people a very long way away from their own circumstances……….

    ……..then they go round blowing up buses,nightclubs,embassies,authors, newspapers, marathons,schools……you get the picture.

    Ah yes, moderates are all terrorists-in-waiting.

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  26. backster (2,171 comments) says:

    The New Zealand born sons of today’s moderates= tomorrows extremists.

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  27. Don the Kiwi (1,754 comments) says:

    ” I’ve often said the only solution to extreme Islam, is moderate Islam.”

    Have to disagree with you.

    I’m sure that’s the understanding that those in France and Britain and Holland and Belgium – just to name a few – had as well, which is generally the western secular approach to peoples, and the progressives approach to “diversity”.

    And I would agree that in the initial stages of Muslim penetration of those countries that your understanding was correct.
    However, there comes a tipping point when the percentage population reaches a certain level – then ALL Musilims start to follow their even moderate leaders that it is time for “Dar el Islam”, or the “struggle” to establish the Caliphate, as taught by the Koran.

    It is for that reason that I am opposed to Muslim immigration.

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  28. Ryan Sproull (7,144 comments) says:

    The New Zealand born sons of today’s moderates= tomorrows extremists.

    The New Zealand-born sons of today’s extremists = tomorrow’s moderates.

    Ever grown up in New Zealand before? It has a calming effect.

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  29. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    Altiora, you do raise a good point, but is it necessarily a valid one? Look at Narenda Modi, the newly elected Indian Prime Minister and his previous record in terms of anti-Muslim and anti-Sikh sectarian violence in Gujarat, his home state. And need I remind anyone that both India and Pakistan have nuclear weapons and are fighting a deadly surrogate war in Jammu and Kashmir? Huevon, it’s good to hear that you condemn anti-abortion terrorist violence, but it happened. One of the people killed was a security guard and grandfather at a Melbourne abortion clinic. Once again, all fundamentalisms have committed sectarian violence, ethnic cleansing and acts of terrorism. They are the problem, not moderates of all faiths or none. And again, let’s not sanitise the history of Christianity merely because it happens to be the largest western faith. The Nazi Holocaust occurred in Germany. Catholic and Lutheran Germany.

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  30. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    The so-called “extremists” are simply following the clear teachings of Islam.

    You don’t know what you are talking about, Huevon. The mosque has every right to trespass anyone, and Islam does not condone the injury of property rights.

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  31. Manolo (13,767 comments) says:

    Plain and simple. There are no moderates: all followers of Islam are potential jihadists because of the teaching of their barbaric cult.

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  32. altiora (279 comments) says:

    ChardonnayGuy: I think you need to ask yourself whether you have a good point. The fact that other’s do it, does not cripple us from recognizing the danger posed by political Islam. At most, it requires us to attack all religious extremism. However, none of those examples pose the same threat to world peace than the concept of “Jihad” that is propagated by BOTH fundamentalist and “moderate” teachers in Islam.

    As I say, I don’t understand the need to be constantly attacking Christianity, which in my view is largely a spent force in western society.

    Modi is detested by many of my Hindu friends; and there are clear and inviolate injunctions in Hinduism that people must not harm other human beings. If you understand India, you will understand that religious differences are just the cosmetic layer to disguise the protection racket that is modern Indian political parties, especially in the northern states.

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  33. jonnobanks (148 comments) says:

    Only solution to any religion is to read a science book and possess half a brain. Also, actually reading any ‘holy’ book will help to realise how full of shit religion is.

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  34. GPT1 (2,122 comments) says:

    Agreed DPF – it is very pleasing not to be spun some cock and bull about culture and religion to justify appalling behaviour.

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  35. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    And many of my Hindu friends too, Altiora. Just as most mainstream Muslims are nauseated at the behaviour of Boko Haram.

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  36. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    the “struggle” to establish the Caliphate, as taught by the Koran.

    The caliphate is related to to Judaic messianism:

    O Dawud (David)! Verily! We have placed you as a successor on earth, so judge you between men in truth (and justice) and follow not your desire for it will mislead you from the Path of Allah. Verily! Those who wander astray from the Path of Allah (shall) have a severe torment, because they forgot the Day of Reckoning.
    Surah 38:26

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  37. mara (784 comments) says:

    “If they had gotten rid of the apostasy punishment, Islam wouldn’t exist today. Opposing apostasy is what has kept Islam what it is today.” Yusef al-Qaradawi, head of Muslin Brotherhood and a leading scholar of Sunni Islam.

    Who am I to argue with such authority? If any of you are still innocent of Islamic intention, check out barenakedislam.com

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  38. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    none of those examples pose the same threat to world peace than the concept of “Jihad” that is propagated by BOTH fundamentalist and “moderate” teachers in Islam.

    Jihad means struggle, the problem arises when jihad is directed by political ambition rather by than true Islam. Moderates are as vulnerable to this as extremists.

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  39. kowtow (8,470 comments) says:

    Because the Nazi Holocaust happened in Germany ,which was/is a christian country doesn’t mean the holocaust was done in the name of Christianity or Christians.

    Islamic terror ,boko haram,al quaida,etc etc is all done in the name of Islam.

    Huge difference.

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  40. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    All followers of Islam are potential jihadists because of the teaching of their barbaric cult.

    Believing that you are no longer accountable for your sins because an innocent man was tortured to death is pretty barbaric.
    Except that is it your religion Manolo, not that of Islam.

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  41. tom hunter (4,838 comments) says:

    sometimes the costs of defying those extremists can be fatal.

    Quite true, making it a simple case of force vs. force. But there have long been theological arguments in Christianity that enabled Extremists to be defeated, or at least contained, in addition to using force. I’m just asking whether there are similar arguments that moderate Muslims use against “extremist” Muslims.

    Please, let’s not sanitise the history of Christianity or its past and present excesses and own fundamentalist pathologies.

    And please let’s not deflect from a primary, existing threat by referring to the vastly lesser threat of Christian abortion clinic bombers. As I’ve often said, the moment Baptists start flying planes into buildings I’ll be asking questions of their faith too.

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  42. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Because the Nazi Holocaust happened in Germany ,which was/is a christian country doesn’t mean the holocaust was done in the name of Christianity or Christians.

    The Nazi experience was to some degree driven by Christianity – Hitler drew from Martin Luther’s judenhass and was initially supported by the Vatican.
    Also the beasts of the book of Revelation correspond to generally Christian nations or organizations – England, the US, Germany.

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  43. Huevon (222 comments) says:

    @ Chardonnay Guy

    “And again, let’s not sanitise the history of Christianity merely because it happens to be the largest western faith. The Nazi Holocaust occurred in Germany. Catholic and Lutheran Germany.”

    Awesome! Unjustifiable extrapolations from historical events to blame and slander your ideological opponents who were not actually responsible for said events. I love this game! Gays and AIDS exist, so AIDS is the fault of gays. Some people are rich and some people are poor, so it’s the fault of the rich that people are poor. Can we keep playing?

    (You get the picture….)

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  44. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Who am I to argue with such authority?

    The Muslim Brotherhood is corrupt and has no authority. The Quran teaches that there is no compulsion in religion.

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  45. Fentex (974 comments) says:

    Well done the moderates

    I don’t think calling law abiding people who resist violent imposition “Moderates” is fair to them. It casts their civil actions into religious lights (by implying they act to represent a hypothesised ‘Moderate’ religious position) that are unnecessary to contemplate to respect them for acting civilly and properly.

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  46. stephieboy (3,063 comments) says:

    Yoza,

    There is a clear need to get some of your basic facts right with this piece of bloated exaggerated polemical nonsense,

    I”t must be made increasingly difficult when confronted with the mountain of Muslim corpses created by the West’s drive to secure the planet’s energy reserves. Add to that the extrajudicial drone strike killings celebrated in the main stream media …..”

    The drive to secure the planet’s energy reserves.? Could you expand on that aware in the knowledge that the US for example secures no more than 17% of its oil from the Middle East. I suppose you’d like to point to the myth of the Afghan pipeline as another example.?. I suppose also that unlike China and India, Western Europe is acting nefariously in sourcing some of its oli and gas needs from the ME and Kazakhstan .?
    The Drone attacks “celebrated “by the mainstream media.?? Evidence of that factually actually happening.?

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  47. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Awesome! Unjustifiable extrapolations from historical events to blame and slander your ideological opponents who were not actually responsible for said events.

    “When I came to Berlin a few weeks ago and looked at the traffic in the Kurfuerstendamm, the luxury, the perversion, the iniquity, the wanton display, and the Jewish materialism disgusted me so thoroughly, that I was almost beside myself. I nearly imagined myself to be Jesus Christ when He came to His Father’s temple and found it taken by the money-changers. I can well imagine how He felt when He seized a whip and scourged them out.” ~ Adolf Hiter

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  48. stephieboy (3,063 comments) says:

    UT,

    “…Also the beasts of the book of Revelation correspond to generally Christian nations or organizations – England, the US, Germany.”

    More assine rubbish.!

    Hitler was obviously deluded from your quote. Paranoid conspiracy thinking.

    Familiar.?

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  49. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    As I’ve often said, the moment Baptists start flying planes into buildings I’ll be asking questions of their faith too.

    Except that Muslims didn’t fly any planes into buildings, that story is western slander.

    The MSM story of the destruction of the twin towers is false because it cannot account for the extraordinary levels of energy present for months after the event.

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  50. Manolo (13,767 comments) says:

    The MSM story of the destruction of the twin towers is false because it cannot account for the extraordinary levels of energy present for months after the event.

    Nutter alert! It is advised to wear not only a hat, but a double-breasted tin foil suit.

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  51. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    More assine rubbish.!

    stevieboy, you are wrong about pretty much everything.

    The lion is a symbol of England (Anglican Christianity).
    The wings of the lion correspond to the wings of thee US bald eagle, the two are associated in history and in the Bible.
    The leopard corresponds to the German military, i.e. the renown Leopard tank (Lutheran Christianity)
    The bear corresponds to Russia (Eastern Orthodox Christianity).

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  52. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Nutter alert!

    So I’m a nutter for pointing out the impossibility of the MSM explanation? Good luck with that.

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  53. stephieboy (3,063 comments) says:

    UT,

    Sir Isaac Newton took a very different view from his understanding and analysis of the Book Of Revelations,

    http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=AMw8AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA413&lpg=PA413&dq=isaac+newton+antichrist+the+sun+king&source=bl&ots=XdYH3Ulizr&sig=WIBpyocNN

    The book of Revelations rich in broad and abstract symbolism and Imagery . A haven also for one of a more deluded bent to interpret how one likes it.

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  54. kowtow (8,470 comments) says:

    UT, Muslim apologists ,understands Islam better than an Islamic court!

    oh the compassion, the misunderstandings!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/sudan/10837365/Islamic-court-permits-pregnant-woman-to-give-birth-before-she-is-hanged.html

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  55. Ryan Sproull (7,144 comments) says:

    If so, what about fanatical US fundamentalist Protestants or conservative Catholics who espouse anti-abortion terrorism if such should visit New Zealand at some time in the future?

    The frequency of abortion-clinic bombings are even more exaggerated in the public mind than Palestinian suicide bombings are.

    To hear most people tell it, you’d think they were going on all the time. In the last six years, there have been two abortion-clinic bombings, resulting in no injuries or deaths, and no Palestinian suicide bombings.

    Additionally, the most relevant characteristic of many abortion-clinic bombers is not their Christianity, but their mental illness.

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  56. RRM (9,919 comments) says:

    But but but – I thought ALL muslims were extremists?

    Some white guy on Kiwiblog told me so! :-)

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  57. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    UT, Muslim apologists ,understands Islam better than an Islamic court!

    It’s pretty easy to understand, political leaders sometimes corrupt religious teachings to give themselves more power. But not so easy to recognize if you are part of the corrupt system yourself, pride gets in the way.

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  58. Redbaiter (8,823 comments) says:

    “Some white guy on Kiwiblog told me so!”

    WHITE guy?

    So you’re another racist?

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  59. stephieboy (3,063 comments) says:

    UT,

    An apparently interesting rationalization and apologia on behalf of the Sudanese government and Islamic excess.?

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  60. Ed Snack (1,872 comments) says:

    Ryan, that is a factual (and hence unwelcome) comment for the christian bashers. There was a rash of bombings and some targeted assassinations in the 1990’s in the US and some spill over to Canada, with a change to bombings and arson for 2000 on, but at a reduced frequency. One doctor was killed in his church in 2009 (George Tiller).

    Although not condoned by me at all, if one takes the view that abortion is literal murder (and in some cases such as some of those conducted by Dr Gosnell that may be true) then the extreme nature of some peoples reactions is understandable. For example if one knew that babies that had been delivered alive were being systematically killed would it be moral to intervene to prevent what I would suggest is very clearly a murder as defined in current laws in both the USA and NZ ?

    As for suicide bombings, there actually have been quite a few lately, but because with exceptions they are Muslim on Muslim occurrences they are largely ignored by most of the media. We tend to forget that as much as some want to point out the deaths caused by western intervention, the great majority of the killings of those of of the Islamic faith have been carried out by their coreligionists of (usually) a different sect. The Sunni-Shia divide has been behind much of the violence, and it is often exploited in places like Iraq for political purposes.

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  61. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Pretty much all the commenters on Kiwiblog are white guys, I should think.

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  62. Ed Snack (1,872 comments) says:

    Speak for yourself mikenmild. My ethnic antecedents are distinctly mixed, same for my wife and thus of course, for my children. and the importance of that is…?

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  63. Unity (584 comments) says:

    I agree with Don the Kiwi and Manolo and am opposed to Muslim immigration – full stop. One only has to see what has happened in the UK to realise that they do not fit into our society and because of their teachings too readily swing behind the jihadists. Home grown suicide bombers and terrorists have come from our British society. Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists seem to be Muslims. They should find homes in Muslim countries.

    I have a defence for Ugly Truth about the Twin Towers. No-one has been able to explain satisfactorily to me how three towers came down but only two were hit by planes. I don’t accept that it was the fires from the other two because they were steel buildings built to withstand planes accidently flying into them and fires don’t bring steel buildings down. There was also nanothermite found in the ashes and this only comes from explosives, not planes.

    Lastly, I get the screaming heebies everytime our country is called Aotearoa. It is New Zealand and those buying into the former are playing into the hands of those who are out to change the name of our country, as they are changing everything else they can lay their hands on.

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  64. RRM (9,919 comments) says:

    fires don’t bring steel buildings down.

    Incorrect.

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  65. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Unity
    Any other arbitrary restrictions on who should come here? No Asians for example?
    Aotearoa’s future lies in being open to different cultures.

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  66. Odakyu-sen (652 comments) says:

    mikenmild comments “Aotearoa’s future lies in being open to different cultures.”

    Um, what if the different cultures don’t like each other.

    Should the newcomers bend to Rome, or should Rome bend to the newcomers? (As in “when in Rome…”). Who decides who bends to whom and to what extent? What do you do to those who will not bend?

    (Not everyone wants to bend over for the new guys.)

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  67. Unity (584 comments) says:

    Our country’s name is New Zealand, Odakyu-sen. I object to it being called Aotearoa and you are just pandering to the ones who are hoping to change its name permanently.

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  68. Redbaiter (8,823 comments) says:

    “Um, what if the different cultures don’t like each other.”

    Milk is like most Progs, in that he constantly deludes himself he is on the moral high ground. In reality, he never is, and most Prog ideas are simply wrong with horrendous outcomes or have equally damaging unintended consequences.

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  69. Ryan Sproull (7,144 comments) says:

    As for suicide bombings, there actually have been quite a few lately, but because with exceptions they are Muslim on Muslim occurrences they are largely ignored by most of the media.

    As I said, I was talking about Palestinian suicide bombings. There have been none in the last six years. I doubt a survey of average consumers of mainstream media would find that this is common knowledge.

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  70. Ed Snack (1,872 comments) says:

    Ryan, yes you were and you’re correct about that too. No suicide bombings specifically against non-Islamic targets; we don’t really know the origin of those who are, for example, carrying out suicide bombings in Syria, Iraq, and other such places. But those would not be what is the generally accepted “Palestinian” suicide bomber I agree.

    A lot less “random” rocket launchings too; the whole Gaza/West Bank area has been relatively quiet and I wonder if it can last. I guess it depends on who wants to emphasize their purists tendencies or has political expediencies to deal with on either side.

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  71. Odakyu-sen (652 comments) says:

    “Our country’s name is New Zealand, Odakyu-sen.”

    Hey, wait one tootin’ minute there. I was quoting mikenmild (see the quote marks) who referred to Pacific’s triple star as “Aotearoa.” (Note use of quotation marks again.)

    I prefer not to “chunk” in my sentences (the way that mikenmild drops chunks of te reo into his English for stylistic or political effect).

    Anyhoo, we are getting off topic, でしょう.

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  72. Unity (584 comments) says:

    Sorry Odakyu-sen – my humble apologies. I should have directed my distaste to Milkenmild on that one.

    In response to your post, Milkenmild, I don’t have an opinion about any place other than New Zealand when I say that only cultures that fit in with our way of life should be allowed here. Muslims don’t. Their ‘religion’ is far too alien to ours. You only have to look at the UK where they have changed the very fabric of their society. It should be a privilege to be allowed to settle in New Zealand and we shouldn’t have to adapt to immigrants. When we go to their countries, they don’t change for us and there are many things we are not allowed to do in some of them.

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  73. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    fires don’t bring steel buildings down.

    Incorrect.

    No, Unity is correct. Historically no high rise fire has ever caused a complete collapse. The closest to a case of fire induced collapse was the partial collapse of Windsor Building.

    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/windsor.html

    On the night of February 12, 2005, a fire started in the Windsor building in Madrid, Spain, a 32-story tower framed in steel-reinforced concrete. At its peak, the fire, which burned for almost a day, completely engulfed the upper ten stories of the building.

    Despite the relatively low intensity of the NY tower fires, underground fires continued to burn for months afterwards, proving that another energy source was involved in the destruction of the towers.

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  74. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    I don’t have an opinion about any place other than New Zealand when I say that only cultures that fit in with our way of life should be allowed here.

    What you are describing is mob rule, which is incompatible with democracy.

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  75. Manolo (13,767 comments) says:

    What you are describing is mob rule, which is incompatible with democracy.

    Yes, UT. Now, try democracy among your below Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia, or Sunnis/Shiites everywhere. Try to advance knowledge, human rights and equality to see how far you get.

    You are so fanatical, so blinded by Islam, that will never see that the cult of your paedophile prophet is pure evil and supreme enemy of human intelligence.

    I disclose my atheist background, before you accuse of any thing.

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  76. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    “Aotearoa’s future lies in being open to different cultures”

    Where is this “Aotearoa” you speak of Mikey?
    And re the Muslims declaring “Jihad”in West Auckland- Both the English guys in my office are laughing their tits off “We told you so”!! “We told you it was only a matter of time”..
    Seems NZ learned nothing from England’s mistake.
    ‘Sharia Law’ in Muslim infested suburbs is only a few years away….

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  77. stephieboy (3,063 comments) says:

    UT,

    The Madrid Tower cf WTC 1 & 2. Apart from having significantly different designs features , much smaller than the WTC Towers and no prior damage to the fires what relevance does the Madrid Tower have precisely.? ,

    http://www.911myths.com/html/madrid_windsor_tower.html

    Low intensity of the NY tower fires.??? . 1,000 degress low intensity ? . ?Due to Impact of Flights 11 and 175 with release of explosive force of fuel and energy derived from therefrom explains things perfectly.
    While your at it spend some useful time explaining the whereabouts of the passengers from those said flights.?

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  78. EAD (1,086 comments) says:

    Can someone remind me which manifesto Helen Clark and John Key said they’re going to change the social makeup of this country and allow a totalitarian ideology to take root?

    Also, if our “rapidly emerging” (read “enforced”) diversity is our strength and consequently so strong, why is it threatened by mere words and incorrect thoughts? The Multikult is a fragile design as it requires absolute obedience, with constant monitoring of speech and behaviour to enforce submission with free speech stifled so as not to “cause offence”.

    Do we want to live in a civilised country or do we want to become a police state?

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  79. Unity (584 comments) says:

    Yes, stephieboy, but two planes and three towers down? Rather impossible don’t you think. I really don’t know what happened but I don’t believe the official story because it is impossible. Also the fact that the third tower came down was broadcast on UK tv before it actually happened!! I know this is off topic though so perhaps we shouldn’t pursue it here.

    You are so right Longknives. Sharia law would be the next thing to be requested. Heaven help us – literally.

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  80. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    EAD
    A police state would be one where the authorities dictate who can live her on the basis of their religious beliefs. A civilised country practises virtues like respect and tolerance.

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  81. RRM (9,919 comments) says:

    Despite the relatively low intensity of the NY tower fires, underground fires continued to burn for months afterwards, proving that another energy source was involved in the destruction of the towers.

    All that proves is that there was flammable material in the wreckage / basement after the collapse. Given it was one of the biggest office buildings of all time and doubtless overflowing with old paper cheap office furniture and beige plastic PCs, hardly surprising.

    There was a fire in the wreckage of Christchurch’s CTV building after the February 2011 earthquake, is that evidence of some malign “external energy source”???

    9/11 truthers are overly-enthusiastic laymen who upon hearing hoofbeats, think “Zebras” instead of “Horses”…

    On the night of February 12, 2005, a fire started in the Windsor building in Madrid, Spain, a 32-story tower framed in steel-reinforced concrete. At its peak, the fire, which burned for almost a day, completely engulfed the upper ten stories of the building

    That is a reinforced concrete medium-rise building.

    WTC 1 & 2 were steel ultra-high-rise buildings.

    The performance of steel buildings and concrete buildings in fire is completely different.

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  82. Ryan Sproull (7,144 comments) says:

    Seeing 9/11 discussions start helps me understand how other people feel when the conversation turns to religion.

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  83. RRM (9,919 comments) says:

    Sorry Ryan!

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  84. EAD (1,086 comments) says:

    you are right MM – we must be tolerant or we will be called names, ostracized, threatened with arrest, or if we’re lucky, only given a red arrow by MM on kiwiblog

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  85. Ryan Sproull (7,144 comments) says:

    Sorry Ryan!

    That’s okay, RRM. Loving religious discussions helps me understand how other people feel when they start talking about 9/11.

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  86. nasska (11,503 comments) says:

    Our employees at the Beehive must hate us more than we can imagine for them to saddle the rest of us with Muslim immigrants. The appeasers & apologists on these forums leap to defend multiculturalism by reminding us that we are a nation of settlers from other lands.

    What they will not see is that previous immigrants were largely willing to intermingle & intermarry with other citizens eventually producing NZ citizens. Muslims do not & will not assimilate in the same way so eventually we are doomed to having ghettos on the style of Britain & France.

    What we are witnessing is not the introduction of new citizens but an incremental invasion.

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  87. stephieboy (3,063 comments) says:

    Unity (64 comments) says:
    May 21st, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    Yep, the high impact and the explosive force of thousands of liters high octane fuel , severely compromising their structural integrity, by two 767’s was enough to down the towers.
    The piles of falling debris from WTC1 was also enough to seriously damage and compromise WTC7’s structural integrity too.l

    When Muslim Jihad is discussed it’s often not hard to bring in issues like 9/11 especially by Conspiracy theorists.

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  88. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Have you met any muslims who refused to assimilate, nasska? I haven’t.

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  89. nasska (11,503 comments) says:

    Before I attempt to answer a loaded question like that please give me your definition of assimilation.

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  90. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You are the one who said they will not assimilate, so I am happy to run with whatever definition you had in mind when you introduced the term.

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  91. nasska (11,503 comments) says:

    To the best of my knowledge there’s not yet a synagogue in the Wairarapa so I have had little chance to form friendships or enmity with any Muslims.

    Fortunately although I can read & I’ve come across pitifully few accounts of Muslim immigrants even making an attempt at fitting in with their wider communities. They seem to get off the plane & join their own groups & what we see is Little Somalia in Naenae or Pakistan Minor in South Auckland.

    Assimilation is, regardless of the yap, about the last word you would use to describe their actions

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  92. Northland Wahine (667 comments) says:

    Wonders if living in NZ for 10 plus years, the whole time on a benefit and refusing to speak English is an example of not assimilating? If so, I see plenty.

    Or maybe that can be seen as assimilating?

    And in response to yoza calling me a bigot earlier this morning? Hmm, if your definition of being skeptical of Islam being a peaceful religion, then yeah in your eyes I probably am. Groups of any religious types
    make me weary. I prefer to learn about the person, not the religion. However if the person defines him or herself by their religion, be it Islam or Christian, I’ll be giving them a wide berth.

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  93. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘However if the person defines him or herself by their religion, be it Islam or Christian, I’ll be giving them a wide berth.’
    Wise advice. None of the muslims I know define themselves by their religion.

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  94. mara (784 comments) says:

    I live in a suburb nearby the Avondale Mosque and I must say my blood ran cold when I happened to drive by this street at Mosque let-out time. I parked the car to watch and felt uneasy just parked on the street. Hundreds of men piled out of the mosque and were quickly absorbed into the local community. How many of you have visited or live near Stoddard RD.?

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  95. Unity (584 comments) says:

    Yes, like I said, they don’t fit. I wouldn’t normally define anyone because of their religion, but Muslims are very different. Because of their religious beliefs it has been proved over and over again in other countries that they are very susceptible to indoctrination into the worst aspects of their beliefs. They tend to live grouped together and it is very easy for the more militant ones to blend in with them. It is also very easy (as shown in the UK) for their children (born in that country) to be brainwashed by the fanatics. They are a very undesirable faction and I don’t think it is feasible to welcome just anyone into our country. We should be very careful about it, if we are to stay a desirable country for our citizens.

    Multiculturism doesn’t work. There are certain ethnic people who will never get on with other peaceful people, no matter how much you dress multiculturism up. It’s a fact of life. Muslim men don’t even treat their own women or daughters well. They are second class citizens within their own culture. We don’t need that to be introduced here.

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  96. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Muslim fishing buddy Mohammad and his extended family are easy going new kiwis from Pakistan.
    I have sat waiting for him to return from the mosque with his young daughters at my feet reading their favorite story to them.
    The twelve days of Christmas……

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  97. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Yes griffith, but you know some actual muslims, unlike most of the commenters here who only know xenophobia.

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  98. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    Mara- Won’t be long before ‘infidels’ like you and I are not welcome anywhere near Stoddard Rd…..Mark my words….

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  99. Johnboy (16,554 comments) says:

    Whereas you only know Catholics since the amalgamation milkey! :)

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  100. Johnboy (16,554 comments) says:

    What do you think re next weekend? :)

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  101. nasska (11,503 comments) says:

    You’ll be okay in that great little melting pot in the Hutt Mike…..right until the Lower Hutt Masjid invites an extremist preacher to address the faithful.

    Then they’ll turn on you.

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  102. stephieboy (3,063 comments) says:

    Longknives, what Planet are you living on. ? I too live close to Stoddard Rd and visit it reasonably frequently and don’t feel unwelcome. its important to understand the fact that most Muslims there reject Radical Jihad .
    The ones I work with certainly do . Lets not turn this into a hysterical witch hunt but a debate that is driven by a measure of reasoned and rational analysis.
    It reminds me of the hysteria often directed against Irish immigrants and Catholics earlier last century .

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  103. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    HOB will conquer the infidels from over the hill, Johnboy.

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  104. Harriet (4,970 comments) says:

    “……The extremists claim they are not extremists. But the fact they respond to the trespass orders with violence and threats of jihad, suggests that the NZ Muslim Association has judged the situation correctly. They should be congratulated…..”

    With respect DPF………people who ‘call for violence’ are extremists in NZ according to you?

    Yet NZ Muslims that take their 5yld daughters to Indonesia to get their ‘excitable bit’ cut off don’t get called extremists – or even rate a mention on KB – you never ever mention it.

    [fair enough it's your site - but that's a very serious matter of 'regular and organised child abuse' that you never mention!]

    I’ve often said that The Australian newspaper has the Australian Federal Police on public record saying where in Indonesia that Aussie and NEW ZEALAND girls get taken to. Meanwhile the so-called ‘moderate NZ Muslim community’ says nothing at all about it – and they then get congratulated on this current matter? Seriously?

    A quick phone call to NZ Police HQ asking what is being done about it is all that is needed.

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  105. Left Right and Centre (2,979 comments) says:

    Kiwiblog is meant to be one of the more highly visited NZ based blogs.

    When the ‘most popular’ posts are scoring in the twenties of upticks – are politicians going to sit up and take notice ?

    Those numbers need to be in hundreds. In the thousands.

    Do New Zealanders want more Islamists migrating to New Zealand ? Answer: NO !!!!

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  106. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, on Whaleoil:

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/05/new-zealand-will-turn-muslim-state/

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  107. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    Earth to rent a bigot: You folks do recognise that Islam is only New Zealand’s fourth largest faith according to the last census, behind Hinduism and Buddhism? Which short-circuits your rather Winstonesque little anti-immigrant racist and sectarian ravings/conspiracy theories/bad Pauline Hanson impersonations?

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  108. mara (784 comments) says:

    Earth to ChardonnayGuy, yes it’s those pesky Hindus, Buddhists, Episcopalians and Quakers who routinely take offence at practically EVERYTHING we infidels say or do and who threaten us with beheadings and 7th century rule.

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  109. ChardonnayGuy (1,206 comments) says:

    (a) there are moderate Muslims who are sickened, nauseated and disgusted at the monstrous parody of their faith perpetrated by their extremist counterparts (b) wow, someone revoked the Shia/Sunni/Alawi Islamic denominational divisions and didn’t tell me? (c) I suggest you read the Economist’s wise advice about Narendra Modi and the Bharatiya Janata Party and its shady connection to right-wing Hindu paramilitary groups within India (d) and while we’re at it, Nigeria. Unfortunately for conspiracy theorists, Boko Haram assassinates moderate Muslim imams and moderate Islamic organisations condemn its actions. That, and Nigeria’s Christians aren’t saints either. In some instances, they began sectarian violence against their Muslim neighbours. (e) Serbia and its conduct in Bosnian during the Balkan Wars of the nineties- in which Muslims were the victims (f) Russia and its Chechnya quagmire.

    It must be nice to live in a simplistic monochrome world. Unfortunately, that isn’t mainstream multipolar geopolitical reality c May 2014.

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