ACT advocates vouchers for education

June 30th, 2014 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

Jamie Whyte said:

If a supermarket fails to provide its customers with the food they want, it will go broke. Other supermarkets that offer these dissatisfied customers a better deal will win their business. 

The same goes for the farms that produce the food. Fail to provide what your customers want as efficiently as your competitors do and you will eventually go bust.

This ongoing competitive market process explains why the quality of food has improved so much over the last 100 years while the cost has declined.

By contrast, if a state school fails to provide educations that satisfy the parents of their pupils, it will not shut down. Its income does not come from the parents it is failing to satisfy. It comes from taxpayers with no choice in the matter.

Indeed, if a school performs poorly, it is likely to attract extra government funding. In the private sector, resources flow into success; in the public sector they flow into failure.

There is a large degree of truth to this.

We do not get a variety of educational offerings tailored to the different needs and preferences of children and their parents. We get a standardized, one-size-fits-all educational model.

And, as always with one-size-fits all models, state education in New Zealand now fits only a few children.

Who are those children?

They are children with well-off, well-educated parents.

Parents who can afford to buy a house near to a school that will do a good job for their child.

Yep our current system gives wealthy families a choice, but not poor families.

thinks education should be provided in a market of competing suppliers. That has always been our position.

It does not mean that we are opposed to the state funding of education. Not at all. We share the almost universally accepted idea that all children should get a decent chance in life, whatever the circumstances of their birth.

But that doesn’t mean that the state must provide educations, that it must run schools.

This is key. There is a different between the state funding something, and providing it.

Government should make sure that every child gets an education by providing all parents with a voucher, redeemable at any school of their choosing. 

would be a radical reform of the education system. And to a degree the results are unknown. In theory the choice should end up with much better outcomes for poorer students. But are all our schools set up to be self-managing and competing? What if half of them collapsed?

That is not a reason to reject vouchers. It is a reason to trial them. Then make decisions based on the evidence of whether or not they improved educational outcomes.

How about we pick three cites and towns. Turn those cities and towns into fully competitive voucher funded educational centres. And after five years assess the performance of students in those three cities and towns compared to the rest of NZ (in terms of relative change). If they have not improved, then scrap the trial. If they have shown significant improvement, then extend it to some further cities and towns. Make the decision based of actual evidence, not ideology.

Tags: ,

125 Responses to “ACT advocates vouchers for education”

  1. Alan (1,087 comments) says:

    The problem with the grand experiment theory is your need to test it on actual children.

    Parents by and large don’t like their kids being guinea pigs.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 23 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Any alternative is better than union-controlled education in our state system currently. The sooner these social engineering freaks are deposed, the better for every school-age child in NZ. It is sickening to hear some of the things these young ones come home from school with at the moment . . . it is no bloody joke!

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    Other than its three strikes policy, vouchers for education always seemed to me to be the biggest no brainer ACT policy…I am very glad to see it given such prominence this time. I just hope Whyte can sell it…

    You ask what would happen if half the schools – the useless ones – collapsed…the answer is very simple: Providers would race in to meet the ready market of hundreds or thousands of kids, each with a voucher to spend.

    I recall during the 2008 campaign trying to get this across at election meetings…I used the example of Albany, 20 or 30 years ago diary farms and orchards, now the home to a number of new schools, many of them private…they had sprang up to satisfy a demand for education in the area…Whether it was my inexperience, innate prejudice against “the rich” or what; the audiences invariably misunderstood what I was trying to say, and assumed I was talking only about elitist schools catering for “the rich”…

    If I had a voucher to spend on my two, the local school would be a no brainer…it is run by an old fashioned principal and achieves excellent results…where the kids went to high school though may well be a different matter, if I had a practical choice, and if the voucher included bus costs to somewhere other than the local high school …

    Vote: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Grendel (1,003 comments) says:

    as opposed to how happy they are with the current ‘experiment’ where they have no say in what school their kids go to and bad teachers get protected.

    nice deflect though.

    its actually really simple.

    each child has $x dollars of funding, and each school needs $x dollars of funding, which requires y students (probably a 75 percentile of thier max size).

    no collective contract, the school sets salaries based on income like every other employer out there who has to deal with revenue and expenses. some good teachers will be able to teach more kids at the same level or better than other teachers, so will get paid more. other teachers wont be trusted with the school guinea pig and will either leave or get paid bugger all.

    there will be rules about when you can apply, how far ahead etc. some schools will have early close offs due to popularity, others you can wander into on the day.

    doctors can handle capitation rates with nowhere near the resources of a school, i am sure the unions could help with all their ‘expertise’.

    not difficult at all.

    Vote: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. mikenmild (11,684 comments) says:

    ‘if a state school fails to provide educations that satisfy the parents of their pupils, it will not shut down.’
    What actually happens is that parents stop sending their children to a poorly performing school, which then closes because the roll has collapsed.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 23 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. mikemikemikemike (331 comments) says:

    You are showing up the fact that you don’t have kids….Do you really want to do use children’s futures in a gamble that has no scientific evidence to suggest it would work, and only fits an ideology. The major flaw in this thinking is that everyone suggests that parents are the customers with regards to education, how about the people who are actually receiving that education (you know the children) and who get no choice as they are used in this wee trial. All you will get is a massive roll demand for the ‘top’ schools and they will cherry pick the ones they want and reject the ‘others’. On the plus side it would probably even out the property Market in Auckland :)

    If it were to fail – are we going to put three times the effort into those affected children to ensure they can still attain some quality of life going forward? or do we just forget about them, and call them useless bludgers for the rest of their lives. I’ll give you three guesses where they wouldn’t pick this to be trialled…(anywhere affluent for starters).

    The fact that you would be interested to trial this just to see what happens, speaks volumes for your character.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 26 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. MT_Tinman (3,256 comments) says:

    How dare ACT, Mr Whyte and DPF promote the idea that teachers and school administrators be held responsible for the standard of education within their schools.

    What next – teachers having to prove they are educators?

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. mjwilknz (605 comments) says:

    David Garrett, with my humble respect, the Economist magazine suggests an alternative way to argue for school and teacher choice in this recent article. It is that proponents of school choice frame their case first and foremost as a defence of children’s civil rights. Let’s hope the ACT Party are listening (or reading).

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. Grendel (1,003 comments) says:

    How will it fail?

    the only way this could fail is if all education results dropped.

    but it wont.

    If parents get to choose the school and know that their funding will make an actual difference, they will demand value from their funding and if school A does not or cannot give the results required they will move their funding.

    yes some schools will close, but some schools need to close. yes some teachers will get fired, but some teachers need to be fired (years ago). what you zealots dont realise is that normal people are sick of schools being special, where there is no way to correct a bad situation and they have to just live with substandard results and where the zealots will not accept the reality that there are bad teachers.

    the day to day running of a school and its teaching wont change if the school is good. its just a change around the margins and how the school is funded. students would not have been able to tell the difference between a bulk funded school and a regular school in the 90s, so why would this make any substantial difference to the kids? but it will to the parents who know they have some actual power in their kids education.

    Vote: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Nick R (508 comments) says:

    There is something utterly hilarious about ACT demanding education vouchers while defending school zones because property values in Epsom must be protected at all costs.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 16 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. peterwn (3,303 comments) says:

    See:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11284201
    “The Act Party education policy of allowing schools to opt into a charter school format has prompted an education union to urge the National Party to steer clear of any coalition partnership deals after this year’s election.”

    Does this mean NZEI will recommend its members vote National if John Key promises not to go into coalition with ACT?

    Vote: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Alan (1,087 comments) says:

    I’m not actually sure what the problem is that we’re trying to fix, my kids school and the others round here are uniformly excellent. They turn out well rounded kids with a high standard of education.

    Perhaps there are problems elsewhere ?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 20 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. Scott (1,817 comments) says:

    Totally agree with this concept DPF. I would think that poorly performing schools would close down and good schools would be able to either get bigger and take in more pupils or would set up campuses in other locations. For example Auckland Grammar would be a school that many parents and children would like to see duplicated in their own location.

    The problem is that the teaching profession thinks that it knows best how to educate our children. They don’t believe that actual parents have a clue. So teachers generally argue for a state school system where everybody is paid the same and we have “equality” and “fairness”.

    Unfortunately for many years the schools have been turning out some really great students who go on to university and do very well and some children who have virtually received almost no education at all. For example the level of reading ability of some primary school children and secondary school children is abysmal.

    I think parents should have the choice as to where they send their children and I think the voucher system would help New Zealand children get a better education.

    Vote: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. Psycho Milt (2,419 comments) says:

    How about we pick three cites and towns. Turn those cities and towns into fully competitive voucher funded educational centres.

    How about we wait until my kids have left school and you have school-age kids yourself before we start volunteering peoples’ kids for your experiment?

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 20 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Huevon (223 comments) says:

    I like the idea of vouchers in principle but I’ve also seen the system at work overseas. For reasons i don’t need to go into, I’ve spent quite a bit of time in Chile in South America. Chile has a voucher system in education. It was set up by the military in the 80s when Pinochet invited the Chicago School economists to come down to Chile and just go nuts.

    From what I’ve seen (I haven’t had kids in school in Chile), the system leads to a huge diversity in the types of schools. Even in small cities in Chile, you will find German School, French School, British School, Catholic, Jewish, Evangelical schools etc etc. I guess this makes sense as the parents will choose schools based on immigrant background, religion etc. And Chilean really care about their kids’ school, the school you go to basically sets you up for life.

    The Chileans who go to good schools are just as smart and capable as someone who went to a good school in NZ.

    But a lot of the schools for the poor are shit, and even though parents get more choice, it’s a choice between Shit School 1 and Shit School 2. It’s complicated though – and has a lot to do with issues about race and class and all sorts of things.

    The system probably won’t last much longer. the new socialist president Bachelet wants to reform the system. The lefties have be undermining it for years now – protests, strikes, stupid publicity stunts etc.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Bill Courtney (162 comments) says:

    DPF: But are all our schools set up to be self-managing and competing?

    They are now – it’s called Tomorrow’s Schools, the Treasury ideology of the 1980s. Ironically, John key is promoting the IES package as a way to improve collaboration between schools and not to increase competition. Which will win?

    DPF: Make the decision based of actual evidence, not ideology.

    Why not look at Sweden and Chile, who have both suffered badly under voucher schemes:
    Chile:
    http://dianeravitch.net/2013/10/08/chile-the-worlds-most-free-market-school-system-the-results/

    Sweden:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/03/swedish-results-fall-free-schools-pisa-oecd

    I notice that Jamie Whyte deliberately avoided references to Sweden in his speech, whereas in the past ACT has been in love with Sweden, simply because they had a voucher scheme. It even came in for specific mention in Don Brash’s Second 2025 Taskforce Report (see page 88:

    “We note the Swedish model not because Sweden necessarily has better education outcomes than New Zealand
    but because it provides an established model for introducing greater choice and for facilitating the entry of new
    providers in which school education remains overwhelmingly state-funded.”

    The saddest observation to make on this whole saga, is why so many otherwise intelligent people can’t see what is blindingly obvious: the ideology just doesn’t work. Got it?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 22 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. KiwiGreg (3,259 comments) says:

    @psycho as opposed to the experiment of monolithic, monopolistic, union controlle,d state education we are currently conducting?

    Vote: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. KiwiGreg (3,259 comments) says:

    “the ideology just doesn’t work. Got it?”

    That would be that free market capitalist “ideology” that provides today’s high standards of living?

    Vote: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Psycho Milt (2,419 comments) says:

    I think parents should have the choice as to where they send their children…

    I think parents should get three wishes, but that doesn’t really help any either.

    In a voucher system it’s the schools that do the choosing, not the parents. Parental choice would in a lot of cases be significantly reduced by it. Thought experiment: you’re a principal with one place left to fill and two parents waving vouchers at you. One lives close to your school but has a kid with various expensive special-needs shit going on and no money. The other parent lives kilometers away but has a high-performing kid and proven willingness to get the chequebook out. Which parent gets to ‘choose’ to send their kid to your school? This is the ‘parental choice’ that ACT are after, because the people who get chosen to ‘choose’ a school will tend to be their voters.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 18 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. prosper (172 comments) says:

    Most parents recognise that Macleans college, Auckland Grammar, Epsom Girls are so on are very successful. I do not understand why other schools don’t try and emulate their success. Why the Union, whose supposed interest is the students, doesn’t insist that the other schools model themselves on the successful ones is beyond comprehension. This is what National is trying to do with its policy. If a voucher system speeds it up, great.

    Vote: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    Good stuff!!

    I love how the lefties here are saying its not best for their kids so it shouldnt happen.

    Yet they scoff at other parents who want different things for their own kids which they think are best. Apparently that doesnt matter.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. swan (665 comments) says:

    “There is something utterly hilarious about ACT demanding education vouchers while defending school zones because property values in Epsom must be protected at all costs.”

    That would be hilarious if true Nick, I suppose.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    “Most parents recognise that Macleans college, Auckland Grammar, Epsom Girls are so on are very successful. I do not understand why other schools don’t try and emulate their success.”

    probably requires too much effort and accountability. therefor its easier to say – thats just cause they get rich kids blah blah

    remember, teaching is the only job in the world where you cant measure the persons performance.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. Max S (21 comments) says:

    The reality of this policy is that it would merely encourage more elitist state funded schools such as Hutt International Boys School. They would adopt enrolement policies which allowed them to pick and choose which students they accepted, as well as charge excessive fees/donations. The poorest families would have no greater choice with education vouchers than they do now.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 10 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. Huevon (223 comments) says:

    @ Bill Courtney

    I would hesitate before saying that Chile has “suffered” under vouchers. Before the military shaked things up, Chile was a poor, backward shithole. Pinochet had many faults (like, obviously, having his opponents killed) but at least he laid the foundations for 3 decades of economic growth. Chile now has an almost 1st world economy staffed by almost 1st world level people. The education system isn’t too bad over there, considering the huge amount of ground they’ve covered in the past 30 years.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. prosper (172 comments) says:

    Max I repeat why not copy the successful schools so the poor can benefit also?

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. doggone7 (819 comments) says:

    prosper: “Most parents recognise that Macleans college, Auckland Grammar, Epsom Girls are so on are very successful. I do not understand why other schools don’t try and emulate their success. Why the Union, whose supposed interest is the students, doesn’t insist that the other schools model themselves on the successful ones is beyond comprehension. This is what National is trying to do with its policy. If a voucher system speeds it up, great.:

    Yeah, let’s go the total state control approach with the principals of the three mentioned schools given the brief to turn all the schools into the country into institutions like theirs. All state schools to be on board. Then we end up with greta schools in every nook and cranny through the country.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. doggone7 (819 comments) says:

    dime: ” …remember, teaching is the only job in the world where you cant measure the persons performance.”

    And remember teaching is the only job in the world that everyone is an expert on. And schooling is the only human enterprise which has every facet of its operation, quality and vagaries understood by every Tom, Dick and Harry.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    “They would adopt enrolement policies which allowed them to pick and choose which students they accepted,”

    wouldnt that just be terrible!

    good students with a brain wouldnt be dragged down by the bad students. we cant have that. how dare anyone want to excel.

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. Max S (21 comments) says:

    Prosper. What percentage of Auckland Grammar and Epsom Girls are Maori and Pacific from low income families? Other than of course those they hand pick to play in their sports teams.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. GTP (42 comments) says:

    How would the schools “choose” which students to accept? Having the voucher is one thing but if the school you choose to redeem your voucher at is full then what happens.

    In your example of a town, everyone in town will try and redeem their voucher at the “good” school in town, which would make it massively over subscribed.

    Under the current scheme you can at least be assured a place at your chosen school by buying or renting in the zone.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. RightNow (6,995 comments) says:

    Wait, what? Charter schools are picking and choosing which students to accept?

    But NZEI president Judith Nowotarski said “No one is queuing up for more.”

    Next.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    “In your example of a town, everyone in town will try and redeem their voucher at the “good” school in town, which would make it massively over subscribed.”

    youre saying huge demand for a quality school? heres a couple of options:

    1) shit school gets its act together so it can COMPETE
    2) shit school stays shit and new school comes along and fills the gap. sweet.

    also, in your scenario there is already a couple of state schools. why is one school so shit and one so much better? if only there was a way to rate schools… why isnt the shit school being fixed right now.

    oh thats right, teachers and unions too busy worrying about their bene’s

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. MT_Tinman (3,256 comments) says:

    Max S (4 comments) says:
    June 30th, 2014 at 3:07 pm
    The reality of this policy is that it would merely encourage more elitist state funded schools ……

    I would hope so.

    Schools will be able to pick and choose the students that they want? Also good.

    The voucher system takes money out of the equation.

    Each child will have the same voucher so schools won’t be able to pick on price therefore the value of the education goes up dramatically in homes that now don’t bother motivating the children.

    Parents will have an incentive to assist their child to achieve, if only so that child gets into the school most convenient for the parent.

    The only losers are the always-unionised poor teachers – so win-win all round really.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    Alan (1,032 comments) says:
    June 30th, 2014 at 2:07 pm
    The problem with the grand experiment theory is your need to test it on actual children.

    Parents by and large don’t like their kids being guinea pigs.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 10 You need to be logged in to vote

    Its true what Alan posted love the bitter down ticks and Mr Garrett have you put your finger at the point in your education when you decided to do a criminal act,would have vouchers made you a criminal quicker,we are all wondering.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 13 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. All_on_Red (1,644 comments) says:

    Some have assumed Zoning will disappear. Where does Act say that? ( curious) I would have thought that vouchers could lead to new schools and competition within Zones or adjacent to Zones Like Ak Grammar for those who want better quality but can’t get it as they are out of a Zone where a top school is?
    Then if they are in Zone, they have to take students from within their Zone.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. Nigel Kearney (1,047 comments) says:

    A school is an organisation, not a collection of buildings. By definition a school cannot be ‘full’. A popular school simply takes over the buildings that were previously used by unpopular schools. So everyone can go to the ‘good’ schools.

    One of the biggest drawbacks of our present system is the way it forcibly limits the roll of successfully run schools so their success cannot spread. You can let Steve Jobs innovate all he likes but you also have to let him sell phones to more than 1500 people.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. Max S (21 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman. “The voucher system takes money out of the equation.”

    Surely you aren’t so niave. The elitist schools will still ask for contributions over and above the woth of the voucher.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. mister nui (1,030 comments) says:

    There is something utterly hilarious about ACT demanding education vouchers while defending school zones because property values in Epsom must be protected at all costs.

    You’re a bit of a tool, aren’t you Nick.

    You do realise ACT wants school zoning abolished.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    “Surely you aren’t so niave. The elitist schools will still ask for contributions over and above the woth of the voucher.”

    lol love the language. “elitist”. sounds so nasty!

    so what youre saying is some schools will solicit donations and because of that provide even better services? over and above the top notch schooling they are providing?

    well thats just not on!

    its not fair wah wah wah

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. doggone7 (819 comments) says:

    Nigel Kearney

    So you agree with “Yeah, let’s go the total state control approach with the principals of the three mentioned schools given the brief to turn all the schools into the country into institutions like theirs. All state schools to be on board. Then we end up with great schools in every nook and cranny through the country,” ?

    In your words spread the success.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. doggone7 (819 comments) says:

    dime : “In your example of a town, everyone in town will try and redeem their voucher at the “good” school in town, which would make it massively over subscribed.”

    1) shit school gets its act together so it can COMPETE
    2) shit school stays shit and new school comes along and fills the gap. sweet.”

    In other words the guts of ACT policy. All schools to be privatised.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. mikenmild (11,684 comments) says:

    doggone7
    Sounds like the government’s Investing in Educational Success initiative.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    “In other words the guts of ACT policy. All schools to be privatised.”

    huh? in that scenario the over subscribed school was public.

    schools would still be state funded.

    but OMG, what if private schools did a better job, provided more services BUT made a PROFIT. perish the thought! better off without them eh

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. SPC (5,772 comments) says:

    So voters in Epsom who vote for ACT are voting for the end of school zoning.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. Alan (1,087 comments) says:

    9 downticks for saying my local schools are excellent ?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 10 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    Milky: You are absolutely right of course…bad schools will find their rolls dropping to the point where they have to close…and then the – say – Browns Bay/ Waitoki/Northcote/Bishopdale Academy will step in, lease the buildings from the government – not too much demand for empty schools – and open a new school in those same premises…they will have to be bloody good though, because they are reliant on the market, which means attracting families who have decided to go elsewhere…

    alan: My local state school is excellent too…that’s why it has a waiting list for out of zone kids..

    lurcher: Is that really the best you can do?

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. SPC (5,772 comments) says:

    Alan, its election year – anything state run is bad anything with union workers is bad …

    The hyper unreasoning partisanship extends to feigned excitement about the Liu story developments to encourage continuance of the breathless out of context reporting in the MSM.

    This is the way the partisan acts to exert influence on the wider voting public. It’s the blog campaign way.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. Psycho Milt (2,419 comments) says:

    9 downticks for saying my local schools are excellent ?

    Kiwiblog commenters know that NZ schools outside of rich neighbourhoods are shitty, union-controlled social engineering factories and all the evidence to the contrary is just lying propaganda by liberal poofter academics, so yes – 9 downticks for you, sir.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 11 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. SPC (5,772 comments) says:

    DG. I disagree in most cases the Education Ministry will try and sell the land of the closed school for housing. They use the asset sales for their future investment fund. This has been their practice for a decade or more now. The wider government has copied their example selling half the power companies to finance “tar seal” politics.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. doggone7 (819 comments) says:

    SPC: “So voters in Epsom who vote for ACT are voting for the end of school zoning.”

    That’s this time around. Last time they voted for Charters Schools but didn’t get any. Whoops, no sorry, no-one voted for charter schools last time, they weren’t on the agenda!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Bob R (1,389 comments) says:

    ***Parents who can afford to buy a house near to a school that will do a good job for their child.***

    What Whyte may not appreciate is that the quality of a school is significantly influenced by the quality of the students. People buy near schools that will likely have middle class children attending (eg. with few potential gangsers*). If you introduce vouchers won’t it simply mess up the decent schools by introducing a large number of people from lower socio-economic groups?

    * http://www.stuff.co.nz/272619/Cops-to-be-based-at-South-Auck-schools

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. Bob R (1,389 comments) says:

    ***Auckland Grammar, Epsom Girls are so on are very successful. I do not understand why other schools don’t try and emulate their success.***

    @ Prosper,

    Try switching the student bodies of the students in those schools with those in lower achieving schools See how well they do. The US has been through the same thing in trying to close achievement gaps:

    “When I dug beneath the self-promoting schools’ marketing efforts and a media eager to show that education matters, I became ever more certain of the relative power of genetics over education.

    Beyond studying those programs’ evaluation data, I visited a number of such programs. I’ve come to believe that a model program is one you haven’t visited. My most startling memory is when my wife Dr. Barbara Nemko (Napa County Supt. of Schools and recent regional Supt. of the Year) and I visited Central Park East School, the subject of two glowing features on 60 Minutes, touting Central Park East’s test scores as proof that education can close the racial achievement gap. We spoke with the principal, who, after we gained his trust, literally cried and said that the temporary blip in scores came from an impossible-to-sustain monumental effort that faded not long after the cameras left and that, now, the school’s achievement scores are right back to the average of the other public schools in Harlem…

    And indeed we have, in the U.S., spent at least a trillion dollars since the 1960s on such efforts, and the achievement gap remains as wide as ever.”

    http://martynemko.blogspot.co.nz/2011/02/behavioral-genetics-most-important.html

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    “I disagree in most cases the Education Ministry will try and sell the land of the closed school for housing.”

    thats because the only option at the moment is to replace shit with shit

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Alan (1,087 comments) says:

    “Kiwiblog commenters know that NZ schools outside of rich neighbourhoods are shitty, union-controlled social engineering factories and all the evidence to the contrary is just lying propaganda by liberal poofter academics, so yes – 9 downticks for you, sir.”

    In fairness it is decile 10, but the point remains, we have some of the best schools in the world. If it ain’t broke, why fix it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. RRM (10,008 comments) says:

    Excellent, they just got my vote.

    @Alan (post #1) LOL at your comment about “experimenting on children”…. GTFO…. people like you are the reason people dying of cancer aren’t given the option of trialling radical experimental treatments, because someone like you sitting in comfort has decided it’s not ethical until it’s been trialled on X number of lab rats first.

    Schools are failing kids RIGHT NOW. It’s time for this sort of action. Not just a few % more funding to keep the status quo fail running as the unions / you would no doubt advocate.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. SPC (5,772 comments) says:

    doggone7, charter schools were in the ACT education policy. But the ACT Party did not make this well known during the campaign, thus it was a surprise that this was the one of their policies that became part of the National ACT government coalition agreement. It came in under the radar.

    Which raises the issue of whether National will answer any questions about what parts of the ACT education policy they will adopt post 2014 prior to the vote?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. SPC (5,772 comments) says:

    dime, no it’s because they would rather expand capacity on other sites and have fewer schools – so they can sell off land to raise funds.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    Alan: We may well have some of the best schools in the world…as I have said, I am delighted with my childrens’ progress at my local country school…we also have far too many kids coming out of school with no qualifications…haven’t you heard about all the prisoners in NZ jails who cant read or write? (that’s in addition to those who are there because “colonization” made them rape or rob someone)

    The whole point of charter schools is to do something for those for whom the present system just isn’t working…that’s why a number of those which are either up and running or in train are being run by Maori organizations…

    And I truly believe that’s why the teachers’ unions are so terrified of them.. What would they do if such schools starting graduating with qualifications 80-90% of kids who had been failing in the traditional state system??

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. RRM (10,008 comments) says:

    I’m not actually sure what the problem is that we’re trying to fix, my kids school and the others round here are uniformly excellent. They turn out well rounded kids with a high standard of education.
    Perhaps there are problems elsewhere ?

    Keep thinking Alan, you’re perilously close to getting it. Just a few more little steps now!

    (Jesus wept.)

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    “we have some of the best schools in the world. If it ain’t broke, why fix it?”

    ah the language of the low aspiration having under achiever.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    RRM: Do you find yourself wondering how you stayed a leftie so long??

    One of Sir Roger’s lines on both education and law and order I always liked was “If throwing money at it was going to fix the problem we would have had the problem fixed years ago”…Still true.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. OneTrack (3,218 comments) says:

    “The saddest observation to make on this whole saga, is why so many otherwise intelligent people can’t see what is blindingly obvious: the ideology just doesn’t work. Got it?”

    How many failures does socialism and communism does the world have to endure before the left-wing nutjobs realise its a crock.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. prosper (172 comments) says:

    My point is that while socio economic factors may play a role in a schools academic success the poor schools should emulate the good schools to try and lift their level closer to the successful.
    Why are parents experts on education. Simple the NZEi has lost all credibility by following some blind socialist experimental dogma. Such things as having games where nobody wins, banning phonetics, banning rote learning, teaching children’s rights to 6 year olds, providing contraception to children and not telling the parents, paying poor teachers the same as good ones etc. The total suspension of common sense.
    That’s why we are experts on education.

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. SPC (5,772 comments) says:

    DG, we have one of the lowest rates of spending on education per pupil in the OECD.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. SPC (5,772 comments) says:

    Does anyone have a problem with National answering questions about what parts of the ACT education policy they will adopt post 2014 prior to the vote?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. SPC (5,772 comments) says:

    Those who do not belief that it is Education Ministry policy to reduce the number of schools care to explain the nationwide school closures over the past decade and the school mergers in Christchurch?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    Supermarkets and farms? What a ridiculous analogy from a supposedly intelligent man. And I’d be rather sad if people picked up on that without thinking. Supermarkets and farms, in the free world, exist for *one* reason – to make money. A goal of making money is not interchangeable with educating children. That should be obvious.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 9 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    “Does anyone have a problem with National answering questions about what parts of the ACT education policy they will adopt post 2014 prior to the vote?”

    nope. but just to be pricks they shouldnt say a word. not til cunliffe admits he will jump into the sack with the band of loons on his left..

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. MT_Tinman (3,256 comments) says:

    Max S (5 comments) says:
    June 30th, 2014 at 3:48 pm
    MT_Tinman. “The voucher system takes money out of the equation.”

    Surely you aren’t so niave. The elitist schools will still ask for contributions over and above the woth of the voucher.

    Max, those two sentences demonstrate NZ education at it’s finest.

    I would hope so.

    To be able to do that they will have to produce a far better product.

    Again there are only winners.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    The problem is that the teaching profession thinks that it knows best how to educate our children.

    Who would have thought. You do a degree and spend 40 hours a week doing the job but, of course, parents know more. Those doctors have a lot to answer for too. Bloody quacks. I mean when I say I’ve got measles I’ve damn well got measles even if he says it’s just a washing powder rash because I know my body best. And don’t get me started on plumbers and accountants…

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. freemark (615 comments) says:

    Many (I’m sure it used to be most) parents are fully capable of and do educate their children in a variety of ways, for many years, and the School gets more into the finer detail – many parents could do this too, but they are working those hours (paying for Teacher salaries) Some Teachers I know see themselves as somehow noble in their chosen Profession – and are incredibly arrogant about their skills – mainly Lefties. They also seem to have confused the beneficial term socialisation with the destructive repeated experiment Socialism.
    This bullshit about the “Experiment” somehow being potentially calamitous is just that, we don’t see many of the same people being too concerned about the potential effects of the social experiments of same-sex marriages & single sex parent or single parent households, or multi generational welfare dependant households.
    What really gets me these days, is that the Left have this incredibly negative idea of other peoples morals, motives, agenda etc. It’s not hard to see that they actually recognise these attributes in themselves & their ideological cohorts, hence the oft & loud repeated mantra of how much they “care” – they really need to try & prove it to themselves.
    No disrespect intended to the many effective, hard-working & committed Teachers & Education Leaders out there.
    I fully support this – another sensible policy bought to you by parties genuinely seeking to improve the lot of everyone, and the success of NZ.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. prosper (172 comments) says:

    Itstricky. Most of you belong to a socialist union that thinks all teachers are equal. That’s why parents don’t think you know how best to educate children. See my comments at 5.53 for the other reasons.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. RRM (10,008 comments) says:

    A goal of making money is not interchangeable with educating children. That should be obvious.

    Oh wow, it’s almost like you didn’t read the policy you are disagreeing with AT ALL.

    It’s not about ‘making money’ you numpty. It’s about making schools compete for their existence, fight to stay alive by being better than everyone else.. by striving for excellence. Like any other profession has to.

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. Psycho Milt (2,419 comments) says:

    Some Teachers I know see themselves as somehow noble in their chosen Profession – and are incredibly arrogant about their skills – mainly Lefties.

    Some commenters I know are disparaging of any job that isn’t theirs, regarding just about any other field of endeavour as make-work for shiftless layabouts – mainly right-wingers. Strangely enough, the same people also tend to regard themselves as experts in the field of pedagogy far superior to any with actual training or experience in the field.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 9 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    RRM: by crikey you can come a long way!! do you ever wonder why you stayed a leftie for so long?? You are clearly a bright chap…

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    its an idiot: (Sadly you justify my recasting of your pseud almost very day)…Now here’s a question for you…Eton Harrow and Harvard Law all produce graduates with a high level of education/training…Do you think that’s the ONLY reason they exist??

    Take your time..

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. Colville (2,298 comments) says:

    Supermarkets and farms? What a ridiculous analogy from a supposedly intelligent man. And I’d be rather sad if people picked up on that without thinking. Supermarkets and farms, in the free world, exist for *one* reason – to make money. A goal of making money is not interchangeable with educating children. That should be obvious.

    if you think Farmers farm just to make money then you have confirmned that you really are a fuckwit.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. big bruv (14,137 comments) says:

    I would love to see this system implemented. One of the upsides would of course be the demise of the huge number of crap teachers and their union, that alone would improve educational achievement.

    I note that one or two have said they are scared it might be “forced” upon their kids, that says a lot about them as parents. Any parent who really cared about our education system would welcome change (over their own selfish political beliefs) as we simply cannot continue with a system that protects unionised teachers and allows one in five kids to fail.

    I just wish we had a government brave enough to implement it. If Key does one thing in his next term it would be that he takes on and crushes the teachers unions.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. MT_Tinman (3,256 comments) says:

    itstricky (1,447 comments) says:
    June 30th, 2014 at 6:23 pm

    Who would have thought. You do a degree and spend 40 hours a week doing the job but, of course, parents know more.

    Wrong, yet again.

    Parents know that their children could do better if the professionals they employ – that’s you and your mates noddy – did a proper job.

    You should try it some time, you might get satisfaction from a job well done, a far better satisfaction than that gained from doing as little as possible for as much money as possible.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. big bruv (14,137 comments) says:

    “You do a degree and spend 40 hours a week doing the job”

    That is the biggest lie of them all when it comes to teachers.

    Very few of them (if any) “work” 40 hours a week. The bastards get 12 weeks holiday a year and will always have a “teachers only day” on the first day back of any term.

    Teacher used to work more hours than that, teachers used to be involved in school sports, many teachers were team coaches for their schools sporting teams but that is all thing of the past.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    RRM: (But really aimed at the slow)…Up in Tonga, where I still have a practice, there are about 30 “lawyers”…I put that word in quotes because – due to a benevolent Chief Justice in the late 90’s – there are a number of them who have some or no qualifications at all, but are allowed to continue practising under a “grandfather” clause…Other than in Crown Law (they are all graduates of NZ or Australia) There are about 10 lawyers with proper degrees…of those, there are about four firms: 1) whose employees speak good English; 2) Are capable of taking a phone message, and passing it on accurately to the principals of those firms; 3) who know the difference between clients’ money and the firms money 4) Have a website enabling prospective clients to contact them easily…

    Now of the 30 lawyers, 3-4 get all the business from overseas clients…”Why is that?” would be a stupid question…but somehow the rules are different for teachers…

    BB: I must take issue with you…I just happen to know a few teachers (small rural community) and many of them are still there well after 3pm and on weekends…but then Kaukapakapa school also has results the envy of some larger schools…

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. Michael (910 comments) says:

    If parents don’t want to have their kids ‘experimented’ on, they can always use the voucher to enrol at the nearest state school. No matter how useless it is.

    Having the voucher linked to family income – so poor families get more funding – will turn education on its head. Imagine top schools enrolling the kids from Otara/Cannons Creek because the funding that comes with them is too attractive to turn down.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. bc (1,377 comments) says:

    Ye gods big bruv, you really do enjoy displaying your ignorance for all to see.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Disaster Area (41 comments) says:

    I have worked in high decile, successful schools. I have worked in low decile challenging schools. The differences between a successful school and one that is under-performing are many and complex. For anyone to claim that the PPTA or the teachers are the problem is missing the fact that education is a multifaceted problem. No country in the OECD has solved this problem!

    The reality is this. The most successful schools are full. They all have waiting lists. The houses in their zones cost more. If there is no cap on the number of students then what happens? The options are to have larger classes or to have more buildings. One will degrade the standard of teaching, the other will cost millions. When the school is full then where do the children go? Successful schools are more than the sum of their parts. Simply letting parents send their children to whichever school they want may cause problems in the long term.

    Simply saying that NZ has one size fits all approach is disingenuous: look on the NZQA website at the number of subjects and qualifications available. If you don’t like the way your child’s school works then you have the right to stand for election to the Board of Trustees and change things.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    Itstricky. Most of you belong to a socialist union that thinks all teachers are equal. That’s why parents don’t think you know how best to educate children.

    Funny how personal it gets when you think I’m a teacher. Bring out the “socialist” card and all. I’m not. The above was a figure of speech. “You” as in “A teacher spends 40 hours a week on the job”. “You” is supposed to give you, the reader, a perspective from another person’s point of view. Put you in their shoes, so to speak. Are you capable of doing that, or do you just know best all the time?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. prosper (172 comments) says:

    Education is not complex. It has been made that way by incompetent academics, psychologists, administrators with socialist ideologies that infest the unions and educational institutions.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    Oh wow, it’s almost like you didn’t read the policy you are disagreeing with AT ALL.

    Oh wow, it’s almost like you didn’t comprehend the analogy at the beginning of his post AT ALL, you just consumed it without thinking.

    It’s not about ‘making money’ you numpty.

    Why give two examples of making money as analogies to the way that schools work then? Is Whyte a numpty?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    Disaster: From my experience, partly true…Houses are cheap out here, and the school has a waiting list…It is no surprise to me why that is… Thre years running my daughter has competed (I know, dreadful isn’t it? competing?) in a competition which tests kids in spelling and comprehension…all three times she has come in the top 5% of kids in NZ AND Australia…dreadful…

    Best comment in a while on this is from Michael: If you don’t want your kids “experimented on” enrol them at the nearest state school”…quite so…way off topic, but it reminds me of the luvvies getting in a lather about 20 years ago when Ted Turner bought all of Warner Bros library and digitally colourised them…huge upset at interfering with the “artistic vision” of 50 years before…some sensible person said: “If you want them to be in black and white, Turn down the colour…the rest of us now have a choice…”…

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. big bruv (14,137 comments) says:

    DG

    “and many of them are still there well after 3pm and on weekends”

    Well after 3pm you say David!…goodness me, well I suppose there might be a few of them who work almost 40 hours a week I suppose.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. freemark (615 comments) says:

    Disaster Area (5 comments) says:
    June 30th, 2014 at 7:42 pm

    “may cause problems in the long term”

    About the most honest argument against Charter or Voucher Schools I’ve seen. May, might, could, perhaps.. always in the negative.
    So obviously ideologically driven, try turning those slogans around to “it might help the failing kids, if we (the Left) get behind it it is another option worth trying”
    But no..and you wonder why many are dismissive & disgusted by the anti-attitude.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    its an idiot: (Sadly you justify my recasting of your pseud almost very day)

    And sadly every day you mock it because, well, that’s the sort of person you are. Sigh. What’s next? You’re going to tell me you live at Kaupapa Road in Swanson, just over the bridge around the second bend and you’re going to call me out for fisticuffs at dawn to settle it? Highly intellectual stuff this is.

    Now here’s a question for you…Eton Harrow and Harvard Law all produce graduates with a high level of education/training

    Why is this a comparison? Whyte compared schools to supermarkets. That’s hardly encouraging as a comparison, is it? One exists only to make money. One mass produces things. One sells things on special when they’re old and crusty. And that “one” isn’t the public school…

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    Well after 3pm you say David!…goodness me, well I suppose there might be a few of them who work almost 40 hours a week I suppose.

    How many teachers do you actually know?

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    You should try it some time, you might get satisfaction from a job well done, a far better satisfaction than that gained from doing as little as possible for as much money as possible.

    Again, some “assumption” that I am a teacher. Amazing how that draws them all out of the woodwork. Bash left, right and centre. Letcturing me on a job well done… hillarious. I feel quite sorry for you give your perscribed stereotype of teachers. Try to get out and live a bit. Meet a few teachers. Make friends.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. Disaster Area (41 comments) says:

    Freemark, the point I was trying to make is that if parents all decide to send their children to the same school then there will be issues that need sorting. I did not say that vouchers were a good thing or a bad thing. Please can you explain what would happen if a school is over subscribed?

    I have not declared my ideological leanings, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t critically evaluate an idea. This idea has some merit, however I feel that this has some large problems that would need to be thought through carefully.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    “If you don’t like the way your child’s school works then you have the right to stand for election to the Board of Trustees and change things”

    oh! i didnt realise it was that quick an easy.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    Its an idiot: When you stop justifying my alteration of your pseud my son, I will stop using it…

    Now, let’s take your crap in turn:

    1. I mock you because you use a pseud…I don’t believe ANYONE should hide behind a pseud, no matter what their excuse…and some have better excuses than others…If your opinions are worth sharing – IMO – then you should stand by them..

    2. Why the comparison with Eton Harrow and Harvard? Are you really that thick? You have suggested that any institution that has profit among its raisons d’etre is automatically to be sneered at…I am pointing out that private educational institutions on both sides of the Atlantic have profit among their motives…people still respect their graduates..

    3. (Aimed at someone else) I know a few teachers…most at my local school, but another at a high decile school in the North Shore…she hasno fear of national standards or charter schools for one very simple reason: She knows she is a good teacher…(She might be the only teacher in Auckland who votes ACT but that is by the by…)

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. Disaster Area (41 comments) says:

    Dime – I didn’t say it was either of those. However, if you don’t try then it won’t happen. The Board can influence the school massively. There are other things you could do. Do you volunteer at your child’s school? Coach a sports team? Go on school camp? Help with lessons? All of these would help.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. Disaster Area (41 comments) says:

    David Garrett – please can you describe what you think makes a good teacher?

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    “Do you volunteer at your child’s school? Coach a sports team? Go on school camp? Help with lessons? All of these would help.”

    do you come to my business during your 12 weeks off and do some free labour?

    Dime doesnt have kids yet, but they will be going to private school when i do.

    if its with a voucher than all the better. otherwise ill keep paying for other peoples kids through taxes while cutting giant cheques for my own.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. Psycho Milt (2,419 comments) says:

    Education is not complex.

    Says the guy who recommends just having the schools in the poor neighbourhoods copy the ones in the rich neighbourhoods. It’s kind of funny, but not that surprising, how complex things look simple if you’re simple yourself.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    Disaster: Well, I am no expert…but here are some of my criteria: 1) a teacher who can gain the respect and attention of the kids; 2) a teacher who knows comfortably more than the pupils; 3) a teacher who can stimulate them to be as good as they (the pupils) can be; 4) a person who is prepared to put in the “extra yards”, whether that be in terms of time (like after school sports practice) or with kids who need a bit more assistance; 5) a person who is willing and able to be a role model for the kids…for example a teacher who dresses in a slovenly fashion and then tells a kid to pull his socks up is never going to command respect, and rightly so…and YES my children will be going to high schools where you don’t just turn up as you like, or with dreadlocks like that little fuck currently in the news…)

    How’s that?

    Psycho: Yep, you’re an intellectual giant mate…sticks out a mile…

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  103. Bob R (1,389 comments) says:

    ***if its with a voucher than all the better.***

    @ dime,

    The thing I don’t understand about everyone getting to choose where they send their children, is that one of the features of better schools (eg private ones, or in expenseive areas) is that you have a relatively middle class body of students. If everyone can choose where to send them, then how do you maintain that environment? How do you wall off the the kind of problems seen in South Auckland where a number of schools need police to moniter gangs?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  104. dime (10,100 comments) says:

    bob r – as some lefty pointed out, donations..

    also, youd trust the school not to have the morons in with the smart kids.. not sure i trust a state school for that anymore

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  105. MT_Tinman (3,256 comments) says:

    David Garrett (6,015 comments) says:
    June 30th, 2014 at 8:49 pm
    a teacher who can stimulate them to be as good as they (the pupils) can be;

    DG, surely that is the only attribute a genuine teacher needs.

    The rest is window dressing.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  106. Psycho Milt (2,419 comments) says:

    Yep, you’re an intellectual giant mate…

    You’re too kind. There’s no way I have the intellectual prowess of so many commenters on this thread, whose cognitive capacity is such that they know more about teaching than teachers do, without a day’s training or experience…

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  107. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    I mock you because you use a pseud…I don’t believe ANYONE should hide behind a pseud, no matter what their excuse…and some have better excuses than others…If your opinions are worth sharing – IMO – then you should stand by them..

    Use whatever justifications you want. You seem to be unable to take criticism, nor ideas, from an anonymous source. That’s the whole point – It should be that you don’t know what my alterior motives might be, nor what my past is – therefore you are forced to treat me as equal as everyone else. But that’s not the way you work it. You know who someone is, you hack them down constantly for that past. Either that or you look them up in the phone book so you can challenge them to fisticuffs.

    2. Why the comparison with Eton Harrow and Harvard? Are you really that thick? You have suggested that any institution that has profit among its raisons d’etre is automatically to be sneered at…I am pointing out that private educational institutions on both sides of the Atlantic have profit among their motives…people still respect their graduates..

    (a) Not the comparison Whyte made. Is he really that thick?
    (b) I didn’t suggest that any institution should be sneered at, I mearly suggested that the analogy was crap. Supermarkets and Farms exist for *one * reason. They mass produce to make money. Supermarkets have recently come under fire for supposedly beating up suppliers. And that’s his analogy? Pfffffttt. Eton, Harrow and Harvard? Eton is non-profit for a start. Harrow? Not sure. Harvard, well that’s America for a start – I can’t imagine not paying for everything there. And sure, it has a great reputation but it’s one step from real life and industry – not a primary school with 5 year old kids.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  108. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    …children will be going to high schools where you don’t just turn up as you like, or with dreadlocks like that little fuck currently in the news…)

    He didn’t have dreadlocks. But regardless, I think you just showed a good portion of your “real” face to the world just then. Such empathy, I’ve not seen for a long time.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 9 You need to be logged in to vote
  109. Disaster Area (41 comments) says:

    David, many thanks for that. Now the question is, how do you measure those in a quantifiable way? One of the many issues with teaching is that lots of people can say what they think a good teacher looks like, but find incredibly hard to define. The research on lesson observations shows that relatively few observers give the same lesson the same grade. Part of the problem is that different students and different classes need taught in different ways. Part science, part art. The approach that works on one person doesn’t work on another.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  110. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    Disaster:I don’t know…what I do know is I can still remember good teachers from my primary days – now the best part of 40 plus years ago; my secondary days – 40 odd years ago, and Uni, 25 or 30 years ago…I am thinking of three in particular, one from each era…and they were very different people, and had very different approaches…so I’m fucked if I know how you compare them…maybe those who say its different to evaluating a lawyer (how many cases he wins) or an accountant (how much money he saves you)…but I certainly don’t accept it is just impossible to winnow the poor teachers from the good…

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  111. Disaster Area (41 comments) says:

    David – that’s the problem. People say they know what makes a good teacher and then say they can’t define it well enough to make judgments about possibly terminating someone’s employment. As a lawyer you’d relish getting the case of someone dismissed on such flimsy definitions.

    I really don’t know why teaching and education creates so much vitriol. Do people really hate Unions that much? Did people really have such a bad experience at school it still hurts them years later?

    Do other occupations create this sort of visceral reaction?

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  112. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    Disaster: all good questions…I suspect there has never been a case where a teacher has been successfully terminated for poor performance…, well, perhaps if they turned up pissed every second day and fell asleep…I have vague memories of some at primary school – I was of an age to be taught by war veterans – who were close to that level…they never seemd to disappear…

    yes funnily enough, the woman I mentioned earlier (the only teacher in Auckland who probably votes ACT) says that in every school she has taught in, everyone knew who the useless ones were…she says nothing ever happens to them, and she doesn’t like it…

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  113. gump (1,661 comments) says:

    @SPC

    “So voters in Epsom who vote for ACT are voting for the end of school zoning.”

    ————————-

    Yes – and if the good people of Epson ever realise this fact, there’s no chance of an ACT candidate getting through the gate.

    Living in the zoning sweet-spot can easily add $100k to the price of a house in Epsom.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  114. questions (208 comments) says:

    I’m going to repost this in tomorrows general debate because I think there are some questions that need answering.

    I can see how the policy appeals to Act and the rest of you free marketeers, but I don’t think, with the size of the graduations in the margin that you find, when applying the policy to reality, that it is workable.

    Putting the policy into practice, vouchers are handed out to the parents, who then put in for the places, like every year, Epsom Girls Grammar School is over subscribed for places, more parents want to send their children there than they can fit.

    The school can’t rustle up extra classrooms and teachers on the spot to meet this demand, nor is this demand new, still only x number of students get in (that is x number of parents get their choice, y number don’t, regardless of how you select).

    No additional places in the school are provided, and regardless of how the selection of students is made (in zone then ballot, or some other system), the same number of parents get their choice in school, how does this provide additional parental choice?

    Additionally how is the voucher system providing any more information to the school and the Ministry than the existing ballot system does?

    All of the students each year need to be placed in a school, so regardless of where the parents want to spend their vouchers, they are being spent at the school the student ends up getting accepted into.

    This is great, and we can see which schools are more in demand, and should be growing, but this isn’t new information, it is known under the current system, so how do vouchers better enable parents to signal where they want their child to go?

    So while the money from the vouchers isn’t going to the in demand school, the school knows if it expands, it can fill those extra places (again, this is not knowledge gained from the voucher system, it can be determined from existing application numbers). Two options: new classrooms, or taking over the facilities of another school.

    Option 1: The schools build new classrooms where they can, remembering that A space is often limited at existing sites, and traveling back and fourth between far apart campus’ is not practical, and B, the size of graduations at the margin, especially in high schools. At high schools where different subject areas are largely taught by different teachers, once class sizes are maxed out for physical space, you can’t efficiently just take another class worth of students, you have to take several in order to be able to utilize teachers across different subject areas. The graduations at the margin are big jumps, you can’t sell 1 additional education widget, you have to sell 3-5 classes worth, and this amount of expansion is often not physically possible within existing school grounds, or affordable given property values.

    Option 2: Taking over facilities from other schools. Again, travel between different sites is not ideal or practical given the traveling distance, time and logistics, so taking over a few rooms at a time from a school isn’t going to work (and if it could practically work, it is going to result in some rather strange school environments). Taking over a whole school might be practical, this however denies choice to the parents who want to send their children to that school, for the benefit of parents who want them sent to another (and probably not the “second tier campus”), again, there is very little if any at all net increase in parents getting their first choice.

    This is great, and I absolutely agree that it should be done in all schools that are consistently over subscribed, but in reality it is often not possible, and again, vouchers in no way contribute to this

    Option 2 expanded: Perhaps a situation arises where by a schools demand exceeds its capacity by such an extent that removing that removing the choice of the parents of a less popular school, in order to provide more places for a more popular school becomes viable, and the more popular school can completely take over the facility of the less popular school. Great, maybe a small net benefit in parental choice, and the management of the school is replaced, presumably the teachers also, but who is going to staff it? It is not like there are large numbers of qualified teachers sitting around, waiting to opt back into teaching, if only there were more teaching spaces available at top schools. In case you hadn’t noticed, teaching pays rubbish, and teachers are in it for the job satisfaction of teaching, making students smarter, not sitting around waiting for top roles at high performing schools.

    This is great, High Performance High Demand High School has taken over the facilities of Low Performance Low Demand High School (notice also the assumption here that performance directly translates into demand), better teachers have been conjured up, places filled, vouchers paid, but vouchers have in no way contributed to this, all the numbers required to get to this situation are known though the existing zoning and ballot system

    I simply do not believe that changing to a system of vouchers over the existing system provides anything new by which to make decisions with, given the physical realities of schools, children, teachers and classes. In the example given of products in a super market, absolutely the argument applies, production can be scaled, there are small graduations at the margin, and information around actual demand for any given product is harder to determine through central control, due to things like product substitution.

    There are of course some unspoken things here, no one has said if a voucher can be redeemed at a private school, a normal person would expect that private schools being private schools, an education voucher for government funding couldn’t be redeemed there, somehow coming from Act I expect otherwise (and they should be honest with the public and explicitly state if this is the case).

    I think the only net change we would see from this is (even) more public funding flowing into private schools, which is a nice discount for those who can afford it in the first place (my what a high proportion of Act voters this is?), but still no net change in educational outcomes.

    If Act wants to give more money to private schools then they should say so, they shouldn’t put this within a trojan horse of education vouchers, which don’t provide any benefit for the students, the decision makers in the ministry, or the parents trying to exercise a choice.

    There is a lot of explaining left to do on this policy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  115. David Garrett (7,533 comments) says:

    its an idiot: the word is “ulterior”…

    I have never “looked anyone up in the phonebook” from here, and the only time “fisticuffs” have ever been mentioned was to some clown who challenged ME to a scrap “anywhere in Auckland”…I duly gave him my address…whereupon of course, complete silence descended..

    Oh and He Who must not be named…he knows where to find me..

    As for not being open to ideas or criticism, au contraire…I learn something from someone on here every day, and try always to acknowledge it… but I certainly don’t recall ever learning anything from you…

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  116. ShawnLH (5,695 comments) says:

    A Generation of School-Voucher Success: African-American kids in New York were 24% more likely to attend college if they won a scholarship to attend private school.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390444184704577585582150808386

    If President Obama wants poor kids to succeed, he’ll consider school vouchers
    Low-income students are often stuck in failing public schools. Vouchers would offer them options and better opportunities.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/04/president-obama-poor-kids-succeed-school-vouchers

    New Report: DC Voucher Program Still a Success.

    http://www.cato.org/blog/new-report-dc-voucher-program-still-success

    Study: School vouchers yielding success.

    http://phillytrib.com/news/study-school-vouchers-yielding-success.html

    YES, VOUCHERS DO WORK!

    The Left does not care about quality education. It has no interest in whether vouchers work or not. The Left is only concerned with ideological control. A centralized State system, dominated by Lefty education “experts” and lefty unions helps the left to maintain ideological influence over a majority of a nations children. That, and that alone, is all the Left cares about.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  117. mikenmild (11,684 comments) says:

    So our education system is just a giant conspiracy, Shawn? Clever of you to have seen through it.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  118. ShawnLH (5,695 comments) says:

    Many success stories behind voucher schools.

    http://voxxi.com/2014/05/01/success-stories-voucher-schools/

    Former Anti-Voucher Advocate Now Advocates For Vouchers and School Choice.

    http://www.freedomworks.org/content/former-anti-voucher-advocate-now-advocates-vouchers-and-school-choice

    Vouchers can work in other areas as well. Note this article on the success amongst poor African Americans of a housing voucher system.

    Baltimore’s Mobility Program Proves The Success of Housing Vouchers.

    http://www.empowermagazine.com/baltimores-mobility-program-proves-success-housing-vouchers/

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  119. ShawnLH (5,695 comments) says:

    “So our education system is just a giant conspiracy, Shawn? Clever of you to have seen through it.”

    Blind of you to ignore the evidence Mikey. Gee, I wonder why your doing that??? :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  120. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    have never “looked anyone up in the phonebook” from here, and the only time “fisticuffs” have ever been mentioned was to some clown who challenged ME to a scrap “anywhere in Auckland”…I duly gave him my address…whereupon of course, complete silence descended..

    That’s funny – I recall on at least three separate occasions seeing you publish your address/location here so that willing punters can have a go. It’s so many times now I can parrot it, although obviously I spelt the location wrong above. Either way, I don’t want to descend into personals and I should not have mentioned it. Sorry.

    As for not being open to ideas or criticism, au contraire…I learn something from someone on here every day, and try always to acknowledge it… but I certainly don’t recall ever learning anything from you…

    Not even how Eton is non-profit? Or are we not talking about that now?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  121. ShawnLH (5,695 comments) says:

    Lets see. I provide seven links to articles (from both the Left and the Right media) that at the very least strongly back the success of vouchers, and Mikey responds with the usual facile one liner, indicating he has no real argument to make.

    Now why could that be Mikey?

    Labour supporter: Check.

    Works as a drone for the State: Check.

    Member of a Lefty Union: Check.

    Thinks that using his taxpayer funded job to waste time on a blog is ok: Check.

    Thus, it is understandable that Mikey supports the centralized State system favored by Labour and dominated by lefty unions which protects lazy people wasting tax payers money. :)

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  122. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    The Left is only concerned with ideological control. A centralized State system, dominated by Lefty education “experts” and lefty unions helps the left to maintain ideological influence over a majority of a nations children. That, and that alone, is all the Left cares about.

    I think this was the “conspiracy” he was referring to Shawn, not random links from randomly unverified opinion pieces on random newspapers and blogs.

    If the left is only concerned with ideological control, can you describe exactly what the differences are between a charter and state school here in NZ? I’d like to try to get to the bottom of why they were introduced.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  123. mikenmild (11,684 comments) says:

    So Shawn, you googled something like ‘education vouchers success’ and got a whole lot of links. Want me to google ‘why education vouchers fail’ and give you some opposite links? You could try constructing your own arguments.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  124. Bill Courtney (162 comments) says:

    ShawnLH: Lets see. I provide seven links to articles (from both the Left and the Right media) that at the very least strongly back the success of vouchers”

    Try Diane Ravitch’s site:
    http://dianeravitch.net/2013/03/29/vouchers-dont-work-evidence-from-milwaukee/

    http://dianeravitch.net/category/milwaukee/

    The challenge is to evaluate what happens when everything turns private and the whole district is based on vouchers / charters, whatever, not to look at the “creaming” effect that scholarships for poor kids to rich schools produces.

    That’s why Milwaukee is still one of the very few large scale experiments undertaken and where even voucher proponents acknowledge that the results are no better and possibly a lot worse!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  125. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    David! Did you know Eton was non-profit?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote