Anti-semitism rises further

June 2nd, 2014 at 4:00 pm by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

An Egyptian court that sentenced to death 37 Islamists and handed life terms to 492 others defended its verdict, saying the men were “demons” who followed Jewish scripture. …

In a statement Sunday to justify its decision, the court said: “The accused came out of the depths of hell…

to plunder Egypt’s wealth, tyrannise its people and they killed the deputy commissioner.”

It described the men as “enemies of the nation” who used mosques to promote the teachings of “their holy book, the Talmud,” the central scripture of Judaism.

So the Egyptian military (or their judges) defend executing Islamists on the grounds that they were actually following Jewish scripture. So the message they send out is the Jews are evil and behind everything bad, and it is okay to execute anyone influenced by them. That’s as bad as the Islamists.

Also in Europe:

A suspected French jihadist who spent time in Syria is in custody over the shooting deaths of three people at a Belgian Jewish museum, prosecutors said, crystalising fears that European radicals will parlay their experiences in Syria into terrorism back home.

When Mehdi Nemmouche was arrested in southern France on Friday, he was in possession of firearms, a large quantity of ammunition and a video claiming responsibility for the May 24 attack, a Belgian prosecutor said.

In a one-minute rampage that deeply shook Europe’s Jewish community, a gunman opened fire at the Brussels museum. In addition to the fatalities, another person was gravely wounded.

Killed three people because they were at a Jewish museum.

Is there any other race (or religion) in the world that attracts such hatred, and in such a lethal way? And it isn’t new. Has been happening for hundreds of years.

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145 Responses to “Anti-semitism rises further”

  1. Redbaiter (8,000 comments) says:

    “Is there any other race (or religion) in the world that attracts such hatred, and in such a lethal way? ”

    Christians get a pretty bad rap too these days. Many of them being persecuted and executed around the world as we speak.

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/christianattacks.htm

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  2. Southern Raider (1,732 comments) says:

    Waiting for Reid’s response in 5,4,3,2……

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  3. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    their holy book, the Talmud,” the central scripture of Judaism.

    Looks like the Herald is still hiring monkeys instead of journalists..

    The Talmud is not the central scripture of Judaism, the Tanak is. The Tanak, as TNK, is an acronym for Torah, Nevi’im (Writings), Ketuvim (Prophets), the books of the Tanak are called the “Old Testament” of the Bible.

    Karaite Judaism rejects both the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmuds.

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  4. JMS (314 comments) says:

    Nothing wrong with denigrating Judaism as a religion, same goes for Islam and Christianity and any other religion for that matter. Seems the new group of thugs ruling Egypt are trying out some new propaganda techniques to discredit the last group of thugs that ruled Egypt.

    Not so sure this is racist antisemitism though(also a awkward term because Arabs are Semites too).

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  5. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    To think we have UN and NZ Labour who would dearly love to fill this country with these murderous thugs. Don’t forget “Tojo” Cunliffe went out of his way, when Minister of Immigration, to allow hundreds of these religious nutters into our country, as well as all their relatives . . . take a look in Hamilton, it is getting real bad, Muslims now wanting to take control of swimming pools, religious studies in schools, stop crosses being put on monuments, etc., etc. Time we looked at repatriating them before things get totally out of hand; we owe then nothing, having given them a damn good start to a new life, which they don’t seem to appreciate. They, along with Slobcom, should be put on flights as far away from NZ as possible.

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  6. kowtow (7,921 comments) says:

    Most people don’t realise that the Koran is full of hatred for Jews.

    Reason? jewish tribes lived in Arabia in Mos time and of course refused to join his raping, looting warlike ideology.

    He had a number of battles with these staunch good folk and in one case all the men surviving were murdered, throats slit ( sound familiar) and the women sold into sexual slavery. Mo himself took a Jewish sex slave.

    All justified in the Koran,which Islam insists is the literal word of God.

    Not just Egypt. Don’t forget there’s a Christian woman shackled in gaol in Sudan cos the Koran mandates death for “apostasy”….there is no compulsion in Islam………yeah right.

    10, 9, 8 ,7 ….. countdown to the usual suspects telling us the OT is just as bad.

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  7. altiora (217 comments) says:

    When I see European countries, and also Australia, allowing immigration from countries wracked by Islamist violence, and when I see those immigrant populations causing so many problems, I am prone to start giving some credence to conspiracist theories about dark forces and the Illuminati wanting to wreck otherwise enlightened civilised nations. The more reasonable side of me suggests that it’s all just stupidity on the governments’ part, but I’m not too sure that it is entirely to blame. Why would any government want to risk several centuries’ of political, economic and social change by allowing them in? What is there to gain? I cannot answer those questions.

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  8. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Nothing wrong with denigrating Judaism as a religion, same goes for Islam and Christianity and any other religion for that matter.

    What is wrong with it is that it panders to atheism or secularism, which is a source of corruption in this country.

    http://www.actsinjunction.info/corruption.html

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  9. Redbaiter (8,000 comments) says:

    The Muslim problem is compounded by the fact that Westerners distracted by feminism are not breeding at the same rate.

    If you don’t breed, your race dies out or becomes subjugated by other races.

    If things don’t change, it is inevitable that many women of Christian descent will be marrying Muslims.

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  10. JMS (314 comments) says:

    10, 9, 8 ,7 ….. countdown to the usual suspects telling us the OT is just as bad.

    Well the OT almost is as bad. But books are not the measure, it’s people’s behaviour.

    Unlike Muslims today and Christians 400 years ago, Christians today deal with criticism in a civilised manner and don’t resort to throat slitting.

    Although neither religion deserves respect, at least the vast majority of Christians today are decent folk.

    The same cannot be said of muslims, which is why they pose such a threat.

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  11. thor42 (970 comments) says:

    @igm – ” take a look in Hamilton, it is getting real bad, Muslims now wanting to take control of swimming pools, religious studies in schools, stop crosses being put on monuments, etc”

    That’s *very* bad. Hamilton needs to get a council that has BALLS and that (along with the police) lays down the law crystal-clear to these people. “This is how it is, this is how it’s going to be.”

    At a government level, there should be law brought in that puts immigrants’ citizenship on at least a five year “probation period”. If they commit any crimes in that period, they get shipped out – end of story. We have “trial periods” for employment, so we can have them for citizenship too (which is *far* more important!).

    Councils around the country (and central government) have *got* to learn about Islam and how it constantly undermines and subverts the cultures of all Western countries that it is allowed into.

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  12. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Ooh, another ‘evil Islam’ thread. Get over yourselves you midless bigots. You are as bad as the anti-semites DPF complains about.

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  13. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Most people don’t realise that the Koran is full of hatred for Jews.

    It isn’t. You’re full of shit, Manolo.

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  14. SHG (369 comments) says:

    Summary: religious crazies gonna religious crazy

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  15. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    Milky: didn’t you agree with me the other day that there is no reason to think NZ’s experience would be different from that in Australia the UK or France if we allow our Muslim population to reach 2% or 5% respectively?

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  16. Brian Marshall (194 comments) says:

    No you leftist troll shites. Why don’t you read the Koran to understand just how awful the thing is. It starts out all nice but then turns nasty as Mohammad got the upper hand in Arabia. It’s full of Jew hating in the later half and instructs the followers of the sick cult that where it contradicts, the devil tricked Mohammad and you should follow the later teachings.

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  17. Southern Raider (1,732 comments) says:

    Mohammed is like the Left. When he found out the Jews wouldn’t join the party he wrote it into the party manual that they should be scorned and persecuted forever.

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  18. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    You are making some heroic assumptions there David. Firstly you seem to assume that muslim immigration is unreservedly bad, and, secondly, you assume that it is going to rise here.

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  19. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    Getting myself in potentially very hot water here….Has anyone ever wondered just WHY it is that Jews have attracted so much hatred across so many hundred years? The only thing unique about Adolf’s behaviour was the systematic extermination and the technology that made it possible…for hundreds of years before him – and clearly after – Jews have been hated…Why?

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  20. Odakyu-sen (510 comments) says:

    The Jews are the canary in the coal mine.

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  21. Duncan Bayne (17 comments) says:

    > >Most people don’t realise that the Koran is full of hatred for Jews.
    >
    > It isn’t. You’re full of shit, Manolo.

    Yes, it is.

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Antisemitism#The_Qur.27an

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  22. nasska (10,877 comments) says:

    Every time the subject of religion & Islamic immigration is broached we get the same crap from the Muslim cuddlers along the lines of “but they are peaceful people……the Quran preaches love & mercy towards all”.

    The Quran may well say that but it’s not the beginning & the end of what Muslims are taught. Like any top heavy organisation the Abrahamic faiths are choc full of “scholars” who do nothing with their worthless lives other than complicate simple teachings. The Catholics have a “magisterium” which is bad enough but the Islamists have thousands of over educated nutters producing Hadith And Sunnah which once adopted must be obeyed.

    Islam is anti infidel…..period.

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  23. dad4justice (7,966 comments) says:

    David Garrett this might help answer your question –

    “Understanding, then, that anti-Semitism is ultimately a spiritual phenomenon rather than a cultural, ethnic or even religious phenomenon, we can also understand that anti-Semitism has to do with God and His purposes rather than with the Jewish people themselves. That is to say, it is not because the Jews are better or worse than anyone else; it is because God chose the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to bring redemption to the world, the Messiah Himself being a Jew. In that light, it will be a bad day for anti-Semites when they realize that the all-powerful King coming in flaming fire is a glorified Jew.”

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  24. big bruv (13,552 comments) says:

    DG

    Were you aware that until 1974 the Catholic Church still preached hatred against the Jews.

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  25. nasska (10,877 comments) says:

    ….”Jews have been hated…Why?”…..

    The theory I favour DG, is that when they were effectively driven out of the ME they weren’t exactly made welcome in the Europe they eventually settled in. For this & who knows what other reasons they were often barred from engaging in many trades & professions.

    They found a niche in “goldsmithing” which morphed into banking as we know it. Bankers exert great power & few die paupers so the Jews eventually became wealthy by the standards of the day.

    Pure jealousy & packs of political arseholes ready to scapegoat the Jews has made them ready targets.

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  26. wat dabney (3,716 comments) says:

    Ooh, another ‘evil Islam’ thread. Get over yourselves you midless bigots. You are as bad as the anti-semites DPF

    Islam is a thoroughly evil and intolerant creed.

    Denying that fact doesn’t make you a superior, tolerant person; it just makes you a fool.

    One only has to look at the Muslim theocracies to see the true face of Islam. They are none of them any better than countries occupied by the Nazis or the Communists, and in many ways worse.

    If anyone is the bigot here it is you, milky: so full of your own blinkered smugness and unearned sense of superiority that you are unable to think outside of the PC Newspeak constraints you childishly imagine defines you as one of the bien pensant.

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  27. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Not being a bigot, I have no idea what it is like to hate a particular race or creed. You have so much to teach, wat.

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  28. Duncan Bayne (17 comments) says:

    > Not being a bigot, I have no idea what it is like to hate a particular race or creed.

    From Wikipedia:

    “A creed, confession, symbol, or statement of faith is a statement of the shared beliefs of a religious community.”

    One of the creeds of Islam is that apostasy is to be punished by death. This is agreed by all mainstream schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

    Is it not reasonable to hate such a creed?

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  29. Twinkletoes (53 comments) says:

    Jew hatred has come about as other religions saw them as rich and powerful because they were money lenders who charged interest whereas Islam and Christianity banned usury. Apart, of course, from the fact that they are the most intelligent and innovative peoples on planet earth. Jew envy is alive and well and becoming moreso in the west with the spread of muslim immigration.

    Once a peoples who lived in subjugation as dhimmis in countries conquered by Islam (as did Xians) they have outshone the muslims in everything – and the muslims can’t bear being shown up for what they really are. Especially as the prophet assured them that they were a superior peoples, unlike the Xians who were of low intelligence, like cattle and the Jews who were descendants of apes and pigs.

    How awful for the muslims in todays world now they realise that their ideology has kept them in poverty and ignorance compared to those they once ruled and the only answer they have to this dilemma is more violence in the hopes that if they follow the mandates of the prophet and use the violent methods that they practised to supress non muslims from the 6th century onwards they will once again become the top dogs.

    It is already happening with help from Saudi oil money and refugee resettlement all over the world courtesy of the UN and its master, the OIC. And of course, the tolerance of the Christian world who are so PC they cannot, or refuse to, see how they are gradually being pushed into deferring to Islamic mores such as gender separation, prayer rooms, female circumcision, forced marriages and halal meat etc. etc. Like UK , other western countries will be expected to accept polygamy and sharia courts for these very special people who believe their culture is so obviously superior to ours – once they have the numbers. We are such suckers, marching submissively to our own demise!!!! Inshallah (as Allah wills).

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  30. BlairM (2,304 comments) says:

    Is there any other race (or religion) in the world that attracts such hatred, and in such a lethal way?

    Orthodox Christianity. Apart from the 4th Century, it’s been a constant bloodbath.

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  31. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Duncan Bayne (11 comments) says:
    June 2nd, 2014 at 5:31 pm

    > >Most people don’t realise that the Koran is full of hatred for Jews.
    >
    > It isn’t. You’re full of shit, Manolo.

    Yes, it is.

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Antisemitism#The_Qur.27an

    From the site:

    “The following is a list of some of the anti-Semitic statements found within the Qur’an.”

    “According to the Qur’an; Jews are only satisfied if you follow Judaism.
    Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: “The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance.” Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
    Qur’an 2:120″

    …..

    So according to Duncan’s site you are an antisemite if you recognise that there are religious differences between Judaism and Islam or between Christianity and Islam.

    Gripping stuff, Duncan. But wait – there’s more:

    “According to the Qur’an, the Jews knowing full well that Isa was a Messenger of Allah, attempted to kill him in defiance of their deity.”

    So pointing about that the Jewish priesthood conspired to murder Isa (Jesus), who was also Jewish, makes you antisemitic.

    I guess that makes the Bible antisemitic, along with historians and biblical scholars.

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  32. stephieboy (2,507 comments) says:

    A more reasoned , thoughtful and truthfull account and analysis of virulent Jew baiting and hating comes, yet again, from the irrepressible Pat Condell ,

    http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.co.nz/2011/05/pat-condell-on-israel-jew-hatred-and.html

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  33. Southern Raider (1,732 comments) says:

    The pure reason for hatred from Middle Ages was Jews were banned from any trade except money leading as that was the one thing good Christians were not allowed to do.

    Now if your a village elder or church leader and you owe money in the Middle Ages what is the easiest way to get out of your loan? That’s right organise a Pogrom and kill the lenders.

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  34. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “…..Not being a bigot, I have no idea what it is like to hate a particular race or creed. You have so much to teach, wat……”

    LOL Milky …….you’re a capital B Bigot:

    Holding a gay marriage is nothing more than a public admission that you detest the needs of half the worlds population.

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  35. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    WHY it is that Jews have attracted so much hatred across so many hundred years?

    Germany blamed the Jews for getting the US involved in WWI and if it weren’t for that involvement Germany would have won, was winning prior to the US involvement, Versailles would not have happened and the terrible upheavals of the Weimar Republic where Berlin for instance turned into the most depraved Sodom and Gommorrah on Earth at the time, would not have happened, either.

    It’s quite simple if you understand history and you’ve read it. I’m not going to help anyone to do that because its feely available to an open mind and google but you need to have both not just one of those things, but that’s broadly how Hitler was able to whip the German people, the most civilised and most well-educated race in Europe, into doing what happened.

    Of course if you’ve only ever read the victor’s version then you’ll remain forever puzzled, just as you were intended to remain, when it was written. Astute people interested in the truth might be able to learn something there.

    Anyway if you read that history this will prepare you for your journey back in time to answer DG’s question about times further back, so if you’re curious then start there. Of course if you’re not curious at all in anything other than reinforcing your cognitive dissonance, then that advice won’t help you and I can’t either.

    Truth rules. OK?

    The key is being open to absorbing it when it leads you in directions other than what you think.

    Please don’t make the mistake of hallucinating out loud that you know what I think.

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  36. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Nice try at threadjacking Harriet.

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  37. Southern Raider (1,732 comments) says:

    Same applies to Israel. Over one hundred years ago most of Israel was uninhabitable. Either desert or swamp. The Arabs who lived there didn’t own the land, they paid rent to Beirut etc.

    What Israel is today is purely from Jewish innovation and hard work. Now the Arabs want it back.

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  38. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Jew hatred has come about as other religions saw them as rich and powerful because they were money lenders who charged interest whereas Islam and Christianity banned usury.

    Judaism bans usury as well as Islam. The relationship between Judaism and financial oppression leads to conspiracy theory heartland: The Rothschilds and their Machiavellian approach to the domination of western politics via the world of money lending.

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  39. Duncan Bayne (17 comments) says:

    > Nice try at threadjacking Harriet.

    So @mikenmild, back on topic … can you tell me why I *shouldn’t* hate a creed that demands apostates be executed?

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  40. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    Judaism bans usury as well as Islam.

    Exactly. Imagine what the world would be like if every 7 years all debts were forgiven and every 50 years all wealth reset so everyone was equal.

    That’s what Judaism says in the Bible.

    Gee. That’s not practiced today?

    Crikey. What went wrong?

    Educate yourselves.

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  41. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Ok Duncan. As a christian, why shouldn’t you obey all the laws in Leviticus? My favourite: keep your head covered:
    ‘And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled.’

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  42. nasska (10,877 comments) says:

    “The Merchant of Venice” reflected the opinions & practises of the time Reid.

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  43. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    “The Merchant of Venice” reflected the opinions & practises of the time Reid.

    So what?

    Has it ever occurred that we’ve been living in sin (i.e. incorrect operating procedure) for centuries, even millenia?

    Ok Duncan. As a christian, why shouldn’t you obey all the laws in Leviticus?

    If you were a Christian you’ll know, mm. If you’re not, why do you care why we do what we do?

    P.S. if you want to be converted, give me a call, Johnboy has my number. Always unbelievably happy when a soul expresses the wish Heaven has been waiting for.

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  44. nasska (10,877 comments) says:

    ….”Has it ever occurred that we’ve been living in sin (i.e. incorrect operating procedure) for centuries, even millenia?”…..

    Never! All we hear about is the “good old days”.

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  45. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Over one hundred years ago most of Israel was uninhabitable. Either desert or swamp. The Arabs who lived there didn’t own the land, they paid rent to Beirut etc.

    The Arabs did own the land, Beirut is within the borders of the land of the Abrahamic covenant, and some Arabs (i.e Ishmaelites) are inheritors of the land.

    What Israel is today is purely from Jewish innovation and hard work.

    Fantasyland. The terrorist state of Israel gives Jews a bad name, from the Lavon Affair to the Sabra and Shatilla massacres.

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  46. Kiwi Dave (81 comments) says:

    Anti-semitism begins in the New Testament when Jews, rather than Romans, are blamed for killing Christ; and as Southern Raider points out, Jew hatred was a convenient way for kings and lords to repudiate debts.

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  47. Duncan Bayne (17 comments) says:

    @mikenmild, please stay on topic and answer the question I put to you.

    The Islamic creed – as agreed upon by all mainstream schools of Islamic jurisprudence, and as practiced in many Islamic countries today – demands that apostates be executed.

    Why should I *not* hate that creed?

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  48. stephieboy (2,507 comments) says:

    Reid, what a load of codswallop.!Hitler and his Nazi Party blamed the Jews for the “stab in the back.” for the German Armed forces accepting surrender terms and the subsequent Versaille Treaty( including the German War guilt clauses and reparation terms.)
    The Weimer Republic a depraved Sodom and Gomarrah.? Evidence and facts.?, and no less or no more than say France.Can we read there a rationalization for the rise of Hitler.?
    Germany was no more or less civilized than Britain or France yet they did not choose the path to barbarity.History as the Propoganda of the victors is utterly fallacious and we at least, like most West Democracies, can readily chhose to accept or reject what the victors might say, googling or otherwise.!r

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  49. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    Never! All we hear about is the “good old days”.

    That must have been before AGW, 911 and interweb porn nasska.

    Reid, what a load of codswallop.!

    Read the history stephie. How do you think Hitler was able to take a nation of 50 million of the most educated, cultured souls in Europe which remember was the centre of civilisation at the time, and turn them into people who did what happened?

    Seriously. How did he do that? If it wasn’t as I described, which I didn’t make up, but is from history, if you read it.

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  50. kowtow (7,921 comments) says:

    Meanwhile the world’s MSM describe the guy who shot up the Jewish museum as a ‘Frenchman”

    Is he a Pierre or an Henri? Does he like onions and long bread? Nope.

    He’s Mehdi Nemmouche.

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  51. stephieboy (2,507 comments) says:

    UT, the Turks would disagree with you on the ownership of the former Roman Province of Syria- Palistina . ( formerly Judeica ).The Ottomams ruled the area unchallenged for some 400 years and unlike Rome did not have to deal with local revolts and uprisings.As a matter of interest the Ottomams ruled the former Judea /Israel from Damsacus.
    Israek is not a Terrorist or a mythical apartheid state .That is a lie,!

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  52. Southern Raider (1,732 comments) says:

    Hey Reid. Westbro Baptist called and they want their preacher back.

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  53. stephieboy (2,507 comments) says:

    Reid, I would urge you to read some real History e.g The Coming of the Third Reich by Richard Evans ( Cambridge emeritus Professor of Modern History ) rather than pseudo history by bigots and falsifiers like e.g David Irving .,

    http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Third-Reich-Richard-Evans/dp/0143034693

    Hitler took Germany down the Road of barbarism through a combination factors that included exploiting the nations resentment for the Versailles treaty and the severe and serious nature of the World Depression that especially affected Germany.

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  54. Southern Raider (1,732 comments) says:

    Problem with people like Reid is they can expose all this bullshit knowing full well that when they witness any oppression against Jewish people they can stand back with their other Christian mates feeling quite safe.

    It was people like you who were quite happy to point the SS towards where there Jewish neighbours lived in the 30′s.

    Ever seen the pineapple scene in the movie Little Nicky? That’s my hope for what awaits Reid in heaven

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  55. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Israek is not a Terrorist or a mythical apartheid state

    http://cisac.stanford.edu/publications/the_lavon_affair_how_a_falseflag_operation_led_to_war_and_the_israeli_bomb/

    The Lavon Affair, a failed Israeli covert operation directed against Egypt in 1954, triggered a chain of events that have had profound consequences for power relationships in the Middle East; the affair’s effects still reverberate today. Those events included a public trial and conviction of eight Egyptian Jews who carried out the covert operation, two of whom were subsequently executed; a retaliatory military incursion by Israel into Gaza that killed 39 Egyptians; a subsequent Egyptian–Soviet arms deal that angered American and British leaders, who then withdrew previously pledged support for the building of the Aswan Dam; the announced nationalization of the Suez Canal by Nasser in retaliation for the withdrawn support; and the subsequent failed invasion of Egypt by Israel, France, and Britain in an attempt to topple Nasser. In the wake of that failed invasion, France expanded and accelerated its ongoing nuclear cooperation with Israel, which eventually enabled the Jewish state to build nuclear weapons.

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  56. goldnkiwi (1,152 comments) says:

    Explains Schmidts vitriolic hatred of Key?

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  57. altiora (217 comments) says:

    UglyTruth the naive proponent of “if only Israel would play nice, the Arabs would be nice in return”. Try to understand why the Israeli’s are so uptight and then you might take a different view.

    Here’s a very nice article that will provide some context to Muslim support of Nazism:

    http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/the-holocausts-most-vicious-killers-2/2011/01/19/

    Note specifically the quote:

    “Our hatred for the Jews dates from God’s condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa [Jesus], and their subsequent rejection later of His chosen Prophet [Muhammad] . Verily the word of God teaches us, and we implicitly believe this for a Muslim to kill a Jew ensures him an immediate entry into Heaven and into the august presence of God Almighty. What more then can a Muslim want in this hard world?” These were the words of the king of Saudi Arabia during a lecture to the British Foreign Ministry in 1937.

    Now how would you feel to be surrounded by people who think that killing you is their religious duty and that they will get heaven as a reward for doing so?

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  58. altiora (217 comments) says:

    David Garrett: the quote from the first King of Saudi Arabia nicely explains why the Jews have been so persecuted: they think for themselves and don’t get carried away by the latest Messiah or Prophet as the case may be.

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  59. stephieboy (2,507 comments) says:

    The Lavon Affair does not demonstate that Israel is, ipso facto, a Terrorist state.It was an operation that was severely crticised by both Britain and The US ( the later accused of been in the pay and lap dog of Israel and so called ” International Jewry.”). Much in the same way the US Condemned both Britain , France and Israel over the Suez crises..
    France may or not aided Israel’s nuclear program but France repudiated that and military aid to Israel. with the 1967 War.
    You can see things are rather more complicated than your Conpiracy black and white approach to the Middle East as elsewhere

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  60. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    Problem with people like Reid is they can expose all this bullshit knowing full well that when they witness any oppression against Jewish people they can stand back with their other Christian mates feeling quite safe.

    Problem with people like SR is they not only don’t know truth when they come across it they don’t even bother to look for it in the first place because they think they already know what it is.

    Then in their galloping mentalism they hallucinate the person who informed them of the outline of the truth is somehow making it up by themselves, again without even looking for whether or not it’s part of well-established history that billions are already familiar with.

    Then they feel free to go ahead and commit libel against said person for the falsehoods they hallucinate said person is making up.

    People like me are supposed to forgive people like SR just like Jesus did on the grounds they don’t know what they are doing.

    Sometimes it’s not easy.

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  61. freethinker (685 comments) says:

    Why are the Jews so universally hated? Possibly because they are perceived to be over represented in the corridors of power and the industries of influence like banking /media/movies were their influence appears to consistently work against the greater good of society. It is unlikely to be a overall truth as many Jews have invented and done much that has benefited society in science & health so once again like so much of world history a minority causes more problems than their numbers as a % of society would expect, how do we fix the issue, sorry I have no answers.

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  62. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    First comes Saturday then comes Sunday – first the Jews are killed then the Christians. Or so the muslims keep telling us.

    But it is only Christians and Jews who can stand against Islam – as all others are too ‘tolerant’.

    Just look at the facts – if it ain’t the progs who are placing all the orders for advanced weaponry from the industrial millitary complex – then it must be from us Christians! :cool:

    The book of Revelations tells us about the rise and fall of Nations – and this current matter of Muslims spilling blood on western streets is just another sign of another crusade to come.

    Just look at the raping of western women by Muslim males all across Europe; Muslim men hate western women because they cannot satisfy a woman sexually – as their women have all had their excitable bits cut off. They don’t know how to fuck properly and feel effeminate compared to liberated western women. Muslim males suffer an inferiorty complex, which is also due to the fact that the Jews have defended modern Israel since it’s inception.

    Muslim males hate anyone who says no to them. Just look at how exasperated they get when arguing over minor things in public – swinging there arms all about. They don’t fit and never will.

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  63. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    UglyTruth the naive proponent of “if only Israel would play nice, the Arabs would be nice in return”.

    altiora, why are you misrepresenting me?

    “Our hatred for the Jews dates from God’s condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa [Jesus], and their subsequent rejection later of His chosen Prophet [Muhammad] . Verily the word of God teaches us, and we implicitly believe this for a Muslim to kill a Jew ensures him an immediate entry into Heaven and into the august presence of God Almighty. What more then can a Muslim want in this hard world?” These were the words of the king of Saudi Arabia during a lecture to the British Foreign Ministry in 1937.

    So what? The Saudis are some of the most corrupt people on the planet, they do not speak for true Islam.

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  64. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Harriet, what druge do you take? Serious question.

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  65. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    First comes Saturday then comes Sunday – first the Jews are killed then the Christians. Or so the muslims keep telling us.

    How would you recognize a real Muslim, Harriet?

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  66. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “…….How would you recognize a real Muslim, Harriet?…..”

    Exactly the same way I’d recognise a dangerous one – one that is out of place – one that is in a Western country.

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  67. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Because UglyTruth, the ugly truth is that you obsess over the sins of the Jews while seemingly ignoring the sheer horror of the surrounding middle east. Israel is the ONLY democracy in the middle east and its Arab citizens wouldn’t want to live any where else. Israel deserves our support. That doesn’t mean uncritical adulation, but it does mean you should stop throwing labels like “apartheid” and “terrorist state” about.

    Here’s another pearler about Palestinian support for Nazism: http://serbianna.com/analysis/archives/1214

    And who is the “true voice” of Islam? What the King of Saudi Arabia said is the orthodox view of middle eastern Islam. It is the view taught to Palestinian children in cartoon TV series about being suicide bombers.

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  68. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    Altoria – ugly wants to take us back to the seventh century – probably so him and milky can have their way with boys. Both jealous of Catholic priests I believe.

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  69. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    No, seriously Harriet, tell us what medication you’re on.

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  70. nasska (10,877 comments) says:

    Never mind Harriet…..some days you’re the priest…..other days you’re the altar boy. :)

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  71. stephieboy (2,507 comments) says:

    Oh dear, Harriet chooses to view Muslims in exactly the same stereotypes as Jews are regarded with. All Muslim men apparently are on a rampage raping of white western women.
    Possibly some, but not all , surely .? Of course we await the rest, like Muslim male sexuality, with factual details and evidence.

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  72. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    If you don’t like the idea of the Christian Conservatives – then wait till you see Islamic Labour! :cool:

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  73. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    I like to imagine that Kea has spent the day reading this thread, slowly turning purple.

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  74. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Has Kea been sent to the naughty step?

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  75. Judith (8,375 comments) says:

    @ stephieboy (1,552 comments) says:
    June 2nd, 2014 at 8:33 pm

    It seems to be that society is not happy unless they have some religious group to blame for the failings of others to achieve what they would like in life.

    Perhaps it is the inability to accept what is, and the need to explain difference and adversity on someone/something, rather than look too deeply at ourselves and what else might be causing the troubles humankind has.

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  76. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    I like to imagine that Kea has spent the day reading this thread, slowly turning purple.

    Surprising a Buddhist doesn’t have the courage to speak out. Or is it.

    Anyway, question for the Israel-firsters: i.e. everyone here apart from UT and I.

    Is it possible ever to criticise in any way whatsoever any Jewish action or any Jewish behaviour, in the same way that all other nations can be criticised, without being accused of anti-Semitism?

    Yes, or no.

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  77. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    Surprising a Buddhist doesn’t have the courage to speak out. Or is it.

    Kea’s a Buddhist?!

    And he’s not not-speaking-out. He’s temporarily banned.

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  78. Judith (8,375 comments) says:

    @ Reid (15,803 comments) says:
    June 2nd, 2014 at 8:47 pm

    It will be one day, but for now it is just too soon. There are still people alive that witnessed the holocaust. Many of us, born after the war were still witness to the horror from the stories of first hand witnesses. I remember when I was about 8, a neighbour finally finding a relative missing since the war who was thought to have died in the camps, but survived.

    It is just too soon, but one day, it will be just another story, like all the other historical stories, and they will be just another group, that can be criticised without recalling the pain involved.

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  79. altiora (217 comments) says:

    @ Reid: agree that some extremists squawk anti-semitism too easily. But no I think you can criticise Israel. But here’s two questions for you: do you agree that in order to judge another’s actions, we need to understand the context? And is there any country with a comparable situation as Israel of being surrounded by numerically superior states who vocally espouse that country’s annihilation? Yes or no?

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  80. altiora (217 comments) says:

    @ Ryan Sproull: Buddhists can be feisty when provoked http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22356306

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  81. stephieboy (2,507 comments) says:

    Harriet , the Conservatives Christian.? I understand Collin Craig is not an adherent and believe he would not appreciate his partly being labelled as Chrustian like e.g Graeme Capill’s Christian Heritage one.
    Labour Muslim.??
    Get a life and off the grass too,.!

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  82. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    Like most of history Judith – the holocaust is not just a story. It’s a very important lesson.

    Currently in France jewish women and children get stoned going to and from school. The French government – just like all the other European governments now, and before WW2, turn a blind eye. Muslims are leaving Europe for Israel – france alone is seeing more year on year depatures.

    That’s a reasonable warning of what’s in store for Europe – Muslim rule.

    and that’s how the Nazis got to rule!

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  83. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    And is there any country with a comparable situation as Israel of being surrounded by numerically superior states who vocally espouse that country’s annihilation?

    The more accurate question is: what actual threat do those countries represent who, according to the Western MSM, vocally espouse Israel’s annihilation?

    For example, are you aware of how deeply the US is in the pockets of the Saudi leadership? Do you recognise there therefore, there is no possible actual strategic threat from that country? I could do into details about that, but that’s the point. WHERES THE THREAT. SHOW ME THE MONEY. DONT SHOW ME WORDS, SHOW ME A REAL THREAT THAT IS CAPABLE OF OVERCOMING 300+ REAL REAL REAL NUKES.

    That’s your answer mate, in the real world, where facts exist. In your western-MSM-meme-generated fantasy, poor widdle Iswael is suwwounded by billions if not twillions of seething hornets just waiting to sting it to death without any defence whatsoever and for no weason at all.

    WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME FOR EXAMPLE AS A WESTERNER YOU HEARD ABOUT THE FACT THAT ISRAEL’S 300+ NUKES REPRESENTS AN IRON-CLAD GUARANTEE AGAINST ATTACK, IN THE REAL WORLD? Never, right? Even if you’re one of the very, very few people who are actually aware of the 300+ nukes, you hallucinate, don’t you, that the A-RABS are so fucking fanatical, so fucking nutso mental that they won’t fucking give a shit, they’ll just fucking pour over the top like the seething cauldron of hatred they really are, on the inside. That’s really, truly what you definitely do believe, in your heart, isn’t it.

    Guess what, moron. That’s propaganda. Instilled subliminally over decades, so you think that. I mean, do you seriously think the A-RABS in cahrge of the govts are not as intelligent as any of us are? Do you seriously think they’re all just like street-morons who’ll get hold of a western girl in the middle of an Egyptian riot and gang-rape her? You do, don’t you. Get real.

    So as to your question, who cares about words, when it comes to a country’s annihilation. And who in the ME has the upper hand on every other nation in the region, in that REALITY?

    That’s right, that’s who.

    Sorry to spoil your hallucination. Welcome to the real world mate.

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  84. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “……Get a life and off the grass too,.!…”

    I’m right on target with my election message hey Stiffyboi ?

    “If you don’t like the idea of the Christian Conservatives – then wait till you see Islamic Labour!” :cool:

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  85. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    @ Ryan Sproull: Buddhists can be feisty when provoked http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22356306

    For sure. Just hadn’t heard of Kea being one himself.

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  86. altiora (217 comments) says:

    @ Reid WOW just WOW. Four short sentences and I get this rant, and called a moron. Didn’t even mention nukes, but there you go Reid constructed an argument based on my alleged ignorance of them. But of course easy to say these things when you don’t have to live with mortar shells and suicide bombings. And of course, those “A-RABS” are just delightful chaps; and not the nasty types who slit throats with bread knives, and have cartoon series for children on the joys of suicide bombing.

    ps. Don’t call me mate please; I’m more discerning about the company I call friends.

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  87. SGA (950 comments) says:

    Reading over this thread, I’m left wondering if militant imams are some sort of middle eastern version of Harriet.

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  88. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    And of course, those “A-RABS” are just delightful chaps; and not the nasty types who slit throats with bread knives, and have cartoon series for children on the joys of suicide bombing.

    Caucasians dress up in sheets and threaten African Americans, you know.

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  89. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Your point Ryan? And which side of 1950s Deep South are we talking about? And how is this relevant to middle eastern politics?

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  90. wat dabney (3,716 comments) says:

    altiora,

    …do you agree that in order to judge another’s actions, we need to understand the context?

    The technical term is weltanschauung, and yes, a grasp of this is fundamental to forming a correct strategic understanding.

    And Israel, a country with absolutely no strategic depth and “being surrounded by numerically superior states who vocally espouse that country’s annihilation,” is the classic case.

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  91. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    Didn’t even mention nukes

    You can’t discuss Israel’s security situation in the ME without mentioning them altiora. The fact you think they’re not relevant but raise mortar shells and suicide bombings without mentioning Cast Lead speaks to your side of the thinking.

    No don’t worry mate, you’re not my mate either, not till you join reality.

    And Israel, a country with absolutely no strategic depth and “being surrounded by numerically superior states who vocally espouse that country’s annihilation,” is the classic case.

    Which is where 300+ nukes come in incredibly handy, esp when the surrounding countries have precisely zero.

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  92. stephieboy (2,507 comments) says:

    Harriiet, once more my advice, Get a life and off the grass.
    The New Zealand voter do not want a Iranian styled Christian Theocracy courtesy of your Con party.!History is against you. Christian Parties like the Christian Heritage and Destiny have had a poor electoral track record.

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  93. stephieboy (2,507 comments) says:

    Reid, reality.? You should talk given the Conspiracy tin foil hat fantasy Disney world you reside in e.g Energy Diected Beam weapons .

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  94. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Good grief isn’t Reid an unpleasant know-it-all? What’s his problem? All his posts are written with this “i know it all, how dare you contradict me, you’re hallucinating, and you would agree if you opened your mind.” Is he some leftist let loose from the Stranded?

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  95. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    Tell me where anything I said above that isn’t well established fact amongst even partially educated dribbling morons such as yourself stephie.

    isn’t Reid an unpleasant know-it-all?

    No I’m just in a bad mood at the moment altiora. Sometimes I’m quite pleasant and humerous and other times not. Who cares and so what.

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  96. stephieboy (2,507 comments) says:

    Reid’s Dr Judy Woods world of fantasy and junk science,

    http://onebornfrees911researchreview.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/911-scams-junk-science-of-dr-judy-wood_7.html

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  97. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    Your point Ryan? And which side of 1950s Deep South are we talking about? And how is this relevant to middle eastern politics?

    Oh, I thought we were making statements about what races do. You know, “Arabs cut people’s throat with bread knives,” “Caucasians go on killing sprees in Isla Vista,” etc.

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  98. altiora (217 comments) says:

    No, I don’t think in “races”; I do think of groups with certain political-religious leanings who can be viewed by looking up youtube and entering “beheading syria”. Please desist from reading in certain things, and at least ask for clarification if unsure.

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  99. altiora (217 comments) says:

    How old are you Reid? Sounds like a very immature thing to come on here in a bad mood” and insult.

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  100. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    Please desist from reading in certain things, and at least ask for clarification if unsure.

    Goodness that’s rather pompous altiora. Anyone would think you’ve got a carrot stuck up your pooh-hole.

    Edit: And I honestly seriously did post that comment before I read altiora’s 9.39.

    Snigger

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  101. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Why is it pompous? It’s an infuriating habit that certain, especially leftists, have of reading all sorts of crap into others’ comments and then constructing entire arguments which imply that the other person is racist, sexist etc Not unsurprisingly, people might take exception to such.

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  102. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    No, I don’t think in “races”; I do think of groups with certain political-religious leanings who can be viewed by looking up youtube and entering “beheading syria”.

    What does that have to do with the “A-RABS” to which Reid was referring in the post you were answering?

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  103. altiora (217 comments) says:

    But back to the question: how old are you Reid?

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  104. SGA (950 comments) says:

    altiora at 9:42 pm
    It’s an infuriating habit that certaian, especially leftists, have of reading all sorts of crap into others’ comments and then constructing entire arguments which imply that the other person is racist, sexist, leftist etc
    You missed one out :-)

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  105. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    But back to the question: how old are you Reid?

    How old are you, altiora?

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  106. altiora (217 comments) says:

    @Ryan Note the speech marks and my adopting Reid’s infantile format of spelling, which was trying to imply I am some Fox News watching American with deficient intellect. Is there an emoticon or something similar you can use when being tongue-in-cheek? Wat dabney had a similar event recently, and some idiot thought he was being racist when he was taking the mickey out of the anti-Asian brigade.

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  107. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Didn’t imply anyone was a leftist though SGA

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  108. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Will you tell me your age if I tell you?

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  109. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    Will you tell me your age if I tell you?

    I haven’t decided yet.

    Why do you ask?

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  110. SGA (950 comments) says:

    altioraat 9:49 pm

    Didn’t imply anyone was a leftist though SGA

    altiora at 9:30 pm

    Good grief isn’t Reid an unpleasant know-it-all? … Is he some leftist let loose from the Stranded?

    Pants on fire :-)

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  111. altiora (217 comments) says:

    I just have this image that people who come on here and insult, then say “I’m in a bad mood” etc as if it justifies their behaviour should be aged between 12 — 18 years.

    Who said you were “quite pleasant and humerous”?

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  112. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    @Ryan Note the speech marks and my adopting Reid’s infantile format of spelling, which was trying to imply I am some Fox News watching American with deficient intellect. Is there an emoticon or something similar you can use when being tongue-in-cheek? Wat dabney had a similar event recently, and some idiot thought he was being racist when he was taking the mickey out of the anti-Asian brigade.

    Yes, I understood you were sarcastically using his own spelling in response to him.

    But he was talking about the people governing Middle Eastern countries, and you brought up people who make children’s shows glorifying suicide bombing and cutting people’s throats with bread knives. I’m not sure I understand the relation between the two.

    Incidentally, in New Zealand TV subtitles for Deaf people, there is punctuation to imply sarcasm, because Deaf folks can’t hear it. It goes like this:

    Nice dress(!)

    It’s not in common use, though, which is a pity. Signposting sarcasm on the internet would be a useful thing. And would cut down on damned winky faces.

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  113. altiora (217 comments) says:

    SGA: Nothing implied. It was explicit!

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  114. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    altiora, how about instead of deciding whether or not you’ll tell me how old you are, you tell me whether what I said above is true in answer to Garrett’s question about how Hitler was able to turn the German people against the Jews so violently?

    Give us your evidence either way whatever you say.

    You seem educated. Partly. I’m sure you have some spooky sources you can bring to the party to give us the truth.

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  115. altiora (217 comments) says:

    The relation is very apparent: much Arab dialogue about Israel, as shown by the Egyptian event that started this thread, Palestinian propaganda exhorting children to be suicide bombers, is underlaid by violence. Violence that is mandated by Islamic teachings, and leads to the horrible events we see in Syria most recently. All the point that I am making, and which Reid keeps failing to grasp because of his “your either for or against me” attitude, is that Israel is surrounded by countries and people who espouse its destruction, and who will carry out terrorist attacks whenever they can, so we can’t be surprised that Israel is touchy.

    This is a good clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qmRq4AgmqY

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  116. Rich Prick (1,630 comments) says:

    Remarkable. When you can’t decide whose sky-fairy is the bestest of them all, you bitch and moan at each other. I sometimes think the Stone Ages weren’t actually that long ago. Intelligent people don’t need the mental crutch of religion. But you guys feel free to cling to it in what ever form takes your fancy, just lay off the (verbal) warfare. Cheers.

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  117. Reid (16,095 comments) says:

    Remarkable. When you can’t decide whose sky-fairy is the bestest of them all, you bitch and moan at each other. I sometimes think the Stone Ages weren’t actually that long ago. Intelligent people don’t need the mental crutch of religion. But you guys feel free to cling to it in what ever form takes your fancy, just lay off the (verbal) warfare. Cheers.

    Given God hasn’t been mentioned once and this was all about geopolitics, what I find remarkable is how someone as ignorant as you clearly are ever managed to become a rich prick.

    These Israel threads are fun. A chance to let your hair down and just flap it all about.

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  118. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    The relation is very apparent: much Arab dialogue about Israel…

    Can you rephrase that the way that someone who “doesn’t think in races” would say it?

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  119. Rich Prick (1,630 comments) says:

    Err, Reid, scroll up and re-read. I’m staying out of this.

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  120. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    Israel is surrounded by countries and people who espouse its destruction, and who will carry out terrorist attacks whenever they can, so we can’t be surprised that Israel is touchy.

    And I’m curious. Are you similarly understanding of Palestinians?

    “Palestine is surrounded by a country and people who espouse its destruction, and who will take land for settlements by force whenever they can, so we can’t be surprised that Palestinians are touchy.”

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  121. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Well Reid: first things first, read “Hitler’s willing executioners”.

    To think that Hitler turned the Germans against the Jews is too simplistic.

    Most of the large scale atrocities were committed by Muslim, Catholic Croats and Orthodox Balts and Slavs, who had extreme anti-semitism running through their veins. In fact, Hitler’s anti Semitism was more of the Austro-Hungarian empire variety than German. The gas chambers were brought because, in part, the German officers were so traumatised by the brutality of the Balts and Slavs etc.

    Not that this should be read as negating German involvement, but it is true to say that many Germans grossly underestimated Hitler’s plans for the Jews, thinking it somewhat eccentricity on his part. Jews were well established as part of the Prussian upper classes, and indeed nobility, for assisting the Kaiser and Bismarck to unify Germany, and there were many decorated Jewish WWI veterans. I recall one story my German great Aunt told me of the family next door running off to the Police when they took their Jewish neighbours away, and told the Police “Oh but they’re nice Jews”. My great Aunt told me this strange bi-focal thinking was prevalent among the Germans at the time. For some reason, they could vilify the abstract but not the personal.

    That said, I don’t think Jews were any differently placed than Communists, political dissidents and homosexuals, other than that they suffered the most of all those groups. When a party with a totalitarian philosophy comes to power and where the state is full of antagonised and demoralised people, people and certain groups are killed. In Stalin it was the Kulacks and ethnic Germans, and then in the 50s he would have turned his murderous attention to the Jews had he not died.

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  122. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Well Ryna “Much Arab dialogue” does imply that some Arab dialogue is not sharing of those characteristics. So I can’t be exactly defining an entire race as you were trying to pigeonhole me with when you edified us with KKK references.

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  123. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    I actually should sleep.

    Thanks for the conversation, altiora and Reid. Have a good night.

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  124. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Ryan: I am getting a little exasperated. I am not an Israel-can-do-no-wrong person. But I am acting counter to the media, and left wing groups, that try to make Israel the great demon and the Palestinians to be some sort of downtrodden angel. I firmly believe that Israel doesn’t help itself, but my God is so hugely annoying when Israel puts one foot wrong, there is massive condemnation, protesting etc. Yet not one protest and condemnation when we see horrendous acts of violence and massive human rights abuses in other middle eastern states. And yes, I know Saudi Arabia’s regime is supported by the USA.

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  125. Duncan Bayne (17 comments) says:

    @UglyTruth: I see you’re ignoring the Hadith.

    “Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.”

    Ironic for someone with your screen name.

    @mikenmild: still ignoring my question I see.

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  126. IC5000 (61 comments) says:

    Maybe the jews should just assimilate into whatever country they’re in and give up their culture and religion. After all, that’s basically what we tell all the immigrants who arrive in NZ.

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  127. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    milkenwimp: You are a true Labourite, play to the gallery, leech off taxpayers, and have the guts of a whitebait. Muslim murderers have stuffed every country to which they have gained entry, and they must be stopped here NOW! We will not employ them, house them, and to hell with consequences. Why should anyone change priorities to suit these bloody ragheaded misfits?

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  128. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    The issue is the way establishment identifies its order of rule, and thus those who are not part of it. Of which anti-Semitism is a sub-plot.

    It can be a Christian Democrat party in Europe implying that the secular (social democratic) left is to be associated with an international left wing atheism and thus is not of the nations Christian tradition. As Jews were and are not.

    It can be a Moslem Brotherhood implying that Islam is the basis for government rule, this is one step from an Islamic state and a sharia law.

    It can be Arab nationalism divided against non Arab states like Israel, Iran or the West (which is why Iran is anti-Israeli and anti-West, to be an Islamic regional power offering leadership against Arab states allied to the West).

    In Egypt the military is now linking Islamists to “foreign” religious identity rule to divide them from the peoples national government.

    As for immigrant groups bringing their “nationalist and or religious” disputes into host nations – and committing hate crimes. This is a challenge for secular society, but one it is best placed to deal with. Assertion of Christian identity only encourages the ambition amongst religious minorities for provision for their needs via religious apartheid in their host nation.

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  129. wat dabney (3,716 comments) says:

    To think that Hitler turned the Germans against the Jews is too simplistic.

    Quite so. Hitler did not violently “turn the German people against the Jews” as Reid imagines: he harnessed pre-existing virulent anti-semitism which was the result of some 2000 years of demonisation by the Catholic Church. The Holocaust was the logical industrial-scale extension and culmination of all that had gone before.

    Incidentally, Reid’s earlier claim that the Germans hated Jews because they blamed them for bringing the American’s into WWI is also wide of the mark. The German high-command knew very well that the Americans would come in if they resumed unrestricted submarine warfare, but calculated that the submarines would finish-off Britain well before the US could mobilise and transport significant forces to Europe.
    The ‘stab in the back’ myth came about because, although on the point of imminent military collapse, Germany quickly surrendered before the the situation became widely apparent. Revisionists such as Hitler could therefore later claim that the army wasn’t defeated in the field but had been betrayed by the politicians who ordered the surrender, together with Communist-inspired agitation back home (and the link between Jewish intellectuals and Bolshevism was plain.)

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  130. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    Ryan: I am getting a little exasperated. I am not an Israel-can-do-no-wrong person.

    That wasn’t the question, though. I was just wondering if you do apply the same “walk a mile in their shoes” perspective to Palestinian actions as you do to Israeli actions.

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  131. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    @mikenmild: still ignoring my question I see.

    I believe he/she has already answered. It may have just flown over your head somewhat.

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  132. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    Good God (to coin a phrase) – I had no idea people like ‘igm’ actually existed. No wonder peace in The Middle East is a 1000 year grieving process. Let go of the hate buddy, let go of the anger. I emplore you to seek help before it’s too late.

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  133. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    Ryan nice post with the “I thought we were naming races that…”. – what’s that sound? WOOSH…

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  134. tom hunter (4,556 comments) says:

    This thread started with the example of Egyptian judges condemning even Muslims as “demons” by claiming they were following the Jewish scripture, and the example of a Muslim gunning down Jews in a museum of Jewish history in Belgium.

    But now we’re into Christianity, Palestinians and “Islamaphobia”.

    Debate framing at its best.

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  135. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    @UglyTruth: I see you’re ignoring the Hadith.

    Yes, and for good reason. The elevation of status of the Hadith represents a corruption of Islam. All of the Abrahamic religions suffer from the problem of man-made doctrine being given equal or higher status than the original belief system. This corruption is also present within the Westminster system as it is applied in NZ, with the original theistic aspect of the system being corrupted by a perverted secular doctrine.

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  136. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Ryan I would be a lot more sympathetic to the Palestinians if their leadership stopped demanding Israel’s destruction, stopped turning a blind eye to mortar attacks, denounced suicide bombings and, above all, apologised to Israel for Palestinian support of the Nazis in WWII (which incidentally, is why Israelis fear the Palestinians). In my earlier posts, I put some links detailing Palestinian support of Nazism, and in those articles that detail horrendous atrocities committed by Palestinians against the Jews before the establishment of Israel.

    Of course, both sides are annoying. But to think that there is some sort of moral equivalence between Israel (a vibrant functioning democracy, where minorities enjoy protection unparalleled anywhere in the middle east) and Palestine (where the party that wins an election thinks it’s right to kill and torture its opponents the day after) is totally erroneous.

    Actually, there’s a great documentary about male prostitutes in Israel; sounds odd, but it was an amazing documentary and nicely captured the contrast between how Israel treated a Palestinian rentboy and how he was treated by the Palestinians (who tortured him and warned him he’d be shot if he returned). Wish I could find the youtube links. And to think that there is a “Gays for Palestine” lobby group!

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  137. altiora (217 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth: I know where you’re trying to go with your comments, but you simply cannot just bat away anything inconvenient like the Hadith (which purports to be consistent and is consistent with the Koran) with the line “it’s not the true Islam”. The fact of the matter is that your analysis is very much a minority view amongst middle eastern Muslims, and indeed espousing that analysis in many middle eastern countries would have you killed.

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  138. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    Ryan I would be a lot more sympathetic to the Palestinians if their leadership stopped demanding Israel’s destruction, stopped turning a blind eye to mortar attacks, denounced suicide bombings

    And I’m sure people would be a lot more sympathetic to Israel if its leadership stopped bulldozing Palestinian farms, maintaining and building new illegal settlements, etc.

    That was my point. You seem very understanding of what you consider Israel’s reasons for acting the way it does.

    and, above all, apologised to Israel for Palestinian support of the Nazis in WWII (which incidentally, is why Israelis fear the Palestinians). In my earlier posts, I put some links detailing Palestinian support of Nazism, and in those articles that detail horrendous atrocities committed by Palestinians against the Jews before the establishment of Israel.

    “Palestinian support of the Nazis in WWII is the reason why Israelis fear the Palestinians” is the single most absurd thing said in this whole thread, and that’s quite an accomplishment.

    Of course, both sides are annoying. But to think that there is some sort of moral equivalence between Israel (a vibrant functioning democracy, where minorities enjoy protection unparalleled anywhere in the middle east) and Palestine (where the party that wins an election thinks it’s right to kill and torture its opponents the day after) is totally erroneous.

    I’m not talking about moral equivalence. I’m asking about the consistency of the application of your sympathy and understanding.

    The actions of Israel were criticised. You responded that, while regrettable, the actions were understandable, because of Israel’s situation as being surrounded by people who want to destroy it.

    The actions of Palestinians are criticised. Do you respond similarly, given their situation of being surrounded by people who want to destroy them?

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  139. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth: I know where you’re trying to go with your comments, but you simply cannot just bat away anything inconvenient like the Hadith (which purports to be consistent and is consistent with the Koran) with the line “it’s not the true Islam”.

    Why not? I’ve got a rational basis for rejecting the Hadith as being an authoritative source of Islamic doctrine, I’m not just making up my definition of Islam from bits that I like.

    The fact of the matter is that your analysis is very much a minority view amongst middle eastern Muslims, and indeed espousing that analysis in many middle eastern countries would have you killed.

    I don’t dispute that at all. The point that I’m trying to make is that by making a distinction between true Islam and politicized Islam one can recognize that there is value within that religion, even with the clearly unjust behaviour found within Muslim communities and Muslim states. The same argument could just as easily be applied to Christianity or Judaism.

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  140. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    I don’t dispute that at all. The point that I’m trying to make is that by making a distinction between true Islam and politicized Islam one can recognize that there is value within that religion, even with the clearly unjust behaviour found within Muslim communities and Muslim states. The same argument could just as easily be applied to Christianity or Judaism.

    UglyTruth, you run the risk of the No True Scotsman fallacy, though, with Islam as with Christianity or Judaism. “No true Muslim would kill children, therefore he can’t have been a true Muslim!” etc.

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  141. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Ryan, it comes down to the definition of what a real Scotsman or Muslim is. The original meaning comes from the Semitic root ShLM, which can mean peace or the perfection of a contract. Looked at this way, it has nothing to do with Mohammed, and in fact the Quran supports this view by describing Abraham as being a Muslim. The elevation of status of Mohammed is the problem, since the Islamic culture does this in opposition to the Quran, which simply refers to him as a prophet, not as a source of the Caliphate.

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  142. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    Ryan, it comes down to the definition of what a real Scotsman or Muslim is. The original meaning comes from the Semitic root ShLM, which can mean peace or the perfection of a contract. Looked at this way, it has nothing to do with Mohammed, and in fact the Quran supports this view by describing Abraham as being a Muslim. The elevation of status of Mohammed is the problem, since the Islamic culture does this in opposition to the Quran, which simply refers to him as a prophet, not as a source of the Caliphate.

    It really doesn’t matter what the original meaning was.

    What matters is what people today understand by the term and what they use it to denote.

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  143. Duncan Bayne (17 comments) says:

    @itstricky: no, I understood him: what he posted was an attempt to direct the discussion in a way that avoided my question entirely. When I called him on it, he went silent.

    I’m not a regular here; it’s possible I was inadvertently feeding a troll by addressing him, & if so, I apologise.

    @UglyTruth: ignoring the Hadith in the context of contemporary Islam makes no sense whatsoever, as every (mainstream? or just all?) school of Islamic jurisprudence acknowledges at least some of them.

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  144. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    It really doesn’t matter what the original meaning was.

    It matters because the original meaning isn’t man made.

    What matters is what people today understand by the term and what they use it to denote.

    As Babylon would have it. The original meaning does not suffer from the confusion of meaning suffered by other languages.

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  145. Ryan Sproull (7,059 comments) says:

    UglyTruth, if you can’t agree that words mean what people use them to mean, then you will neither understand nor be understood when talking to people.

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