General Debate 11 June 2014

June 11th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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247 Responses to “General Debate 11 June 2014”

  1. Harriet (4,514 comments) says:

    Morning all.

    “…….Miss USA 2014, Nia Sanchez (Nevada), just so happens to be a fourth-degree black belt in taekwondo, and liberal feminists are not too happy about it. Cosmo editor Elisa Benson responded with this tweet: “I get that the college sexual assault problem can’t be solved in 30 secs but still icky to pretend like self defense is the answer.” The Huffington Post’s very own Mandy Velez (editor) tweeted: “Let’s hope Nevada uses her media tour to reiterate that teaching girls self defense is NOT the best way to protect against assault.” This is not a new conversation. In 2013, Zerlina Maxwell wrote: “I think that the entire conversation is wrong. I don’t want anybody to be telling women anything. I don’t want men to be telling me what to wear and how to act, not to drink. And I don’t, honestly, want you to tell me that I needed a gun in order to prevent my rape. In my case, don’t tell me if I’d only had a gun, I wouldn’t have been raped. Don’t put it on me to prevent the rape.”

    The idea that women should not be prepared to defend themselves against an attack because they shouldn’t have to be in the situation in the first place is remarkably irresponsible. Predators exist despite a culture’s best efforts, and evil is simply a fact. The argument is emotional and, like the majority of liberal thinking, utterly absurd. When being mugged, how effective is it to indignantly point out to the mugger that you refuse to defend yourself because he should not be mugging you in the first place? The mind-numbing assertion that men, in general, somehow do not recognize that rape is wrong is a level of willful ignorance that merely perpetuates real sexism and fear toward men. If feminists’ plan is to cross their arms and refuse to learn self-defense because they “shouldn’t have to,” there will always be more victims…….”

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/06/conservative_feminism_truly_empowering_women.html

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  2. gravedodger (1,515 comments) says:

    The flooding in North Canterbury will require an off the cuff intervention from the Labour led Government come September, as soon as Cunliffe finds a microphone and a platform.

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  3. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    Labour candidate Michael Wood on Epsom:

    And I hear from the people of Epsom that they actually want some dignified and honourable representation and an end to this circus.

    We’re running a principled campaign. We want this to be a straight out contest of ideas and of parties.

    But he weaseled around questions about how he would campaign, ignored ideas and his own Labour party and resorted to an undignified stunt. Far more clown than ringmaster in the Epsom circus.

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  4. Newbie (35 comments) says:

    Regarding the 12 and 13 year old boys arrrested in connection with the death of the shop keeper, should the parents of the boys be held responsible in some way?

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  5. wreck1080 (3,730 comments) says:

    That was a weather bomb!

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  6. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    Its going to become more common as the planet warms
    We can not say that any given weather incident is attributed to AGW but the projections are for more moisture in a warmer atmosphere causing more extreme rain fall events like the one northern regions have just experienced.
    The resulting flooding and disruption is going to be a significant cost especially on your insurance burden.
    Insurance company’s in America are taking legal action against local authority’s who refuse to factor climate change into their forward planing.
    http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/insurers-message-prepare-climate-change-or-get-sued-n122856

    insurance companies, there’s no doubt that climate change is here: They are beginning to file lawsuits against small towns and cities who they say haven’t prepared for the floods and storms that will cost the companies billions in payments.

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  7. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/305454/memorial-brilliant-dunedin-born-surgeon

    We’ve got some ridiculous rate payer funded “art” in Dunedin but nothing like this to McIndoe.

    newbie (without discussing this particular case)

    How do you? Prove direct connection and involvement in the crime ,that’s fine.Otherwise you’re getting more over reach.

    Such cases are another indictment of our “progressive” times.

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  8. wiseowl (762 comments) says:

    The planet is not ‘warming’.

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  9. gravedodger (1,515 comments) says:

    Gee Griff, the climate has changed, that is why there is no permanent snow cap on Mt Herbert, been wondering about that.

    What do you think causes that, sunspots, gaia, no bloody moa shitting on my front lawn or is it the proliferation of the intellectual elites promulgating their views on the world through a taxpayer funded microscope along with the deforestation required to print their very dodgy outpouring of “the end is nigh”.
    Just askin.

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  10. Longknives (4,456 comments) says:

    “Regarding the 12 and 13 year old boys arrrested in connection with the death of the shop keeper, should the parents of the boys be held responsible in some way?”

    Newbie- Dad’s most likely already in jail. Mum will be at home on the DPB with the other 7 kids that you and I are so generously supporting…

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  11. Longknives (4,456 comments) says:

    My God the Herald are desperately grasping at straws to dig up dirt on National…

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11271474

    What a pathetic effort!
    *Isn’t Lucy Lawless ‘Guest Editor’ this week?

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  12. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    @ Gravedodger – They’re working on the flooding policy in the War Room at this very moment. David Cunliffe will don brand new Red Bands and announce it this afternoon from a puddle in Auckland, then start backing away from anything controversial until they’re back to square one.

    I am reliably informed that their biggest dilemma at the moment is the name, and they can’t decide between KiwiDeluge or KiwiCatastrophe :D

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  13. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    I heard the Labour weasel Twyford stating he would, at a later date, have something to say on the death of the poor bugger working his guts out for about $5 an hour paying taxes to keep the useless bastards that breed these types of young feral mongrels. It will be interesting to hear weasel Twyford’s slant on this disgusting display of behaviour, no doubt the parents being ardent Labour supporters.

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  14. doggone7 (695 comments) says:

    I heard John Tamihere this morning making some reasoned comments about the tragic event too. Twyford had the sense to not rave on like a lunatic and acted with a semblance of composure. He probably left the “let’s grab a rope and find a tree” mob to react in the expected way.
    He was right, igm did. The inane comment at the end show that the role of feral is not particular to violent boys in west Auckland.

    Aroha to the Kumar family.

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  15. Harriet (4,514 comments) says:

    “……Regarding the 12 and 13 year old boys arrrested in connection with the death of the shop keeper, should the parents of the boys be held responsible in some way?….”

    Not if it means ‘sharing the sentance’ with the two accused – they should get the maximum jail term.

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  16. Newbie (35 comments) says:

    Kowtow – I wasn’t suggesting direct connection and involvement in the crime (unless if that indeed did happen). I was thinking more along the lines of poor parenting, in this instance.

    But I guess there’s so many other cases of poor parenting (not necessarily involving death) that it’s probably too hard to bring about a prosecution?

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  17. Kleva Kiwi (281 comments) says:

    Griff you do realise that climate is not the same as weather…
    Even the sky is falling climate scientists know this, and there off living in lala land

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  18. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    The inexperienced Civilian Party has already made serious errors of judgment. It should have declared itself an up the centre party and said it was willing to be promiscuous in forming coalitions with either the right or left. People would have liked the naked ambition on display. It would have been refreshingly honest.

    What does its own description of itself “up of centre” even mean?

    Clearly ignorant of the old maxim that explaining is losing, their infidel leader says they have not cost taxpayers any money only taken a share of it off the other parties. Showing that the PM is wrong with the facts is something best left to a fact check organisation. If rival politicians are going to spend their time correcting the lies told by the others then no fact check organisation is going to get involved and so we have politics as usual.

    So they are no breath of fresh air.

    All in all very tactically naïve.

    And as for their policies and the lack of costing leads one to despair.

    For example there is clearly a marketing opportunity appealing to women who love chocolate. A much more voter rich target than those who eat ice cream. Offering all women a free ticket in a lottery – where the prize was a 3 year supply of chocolate, tempts voters while remaining affordable. The idea that men fund the prize and only women can win should make it all the more attractive to the voters targeted.

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  19. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    :lol:
    The down ticks remind me of a dumb rabbit caught in headlights.

    Inevitable result.

    …..splat……

    Road kill.

    still yesterday I was running at around 33% green for a AGW post.

    There is a glimmer of hope for some reality to sink into the KB posting community’s collective conscience.

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  20. Viking2 (11,129 comments) says:

    MMMM. I see Key’s daily update sheet got sent to one of the news services.

    so what.
    Well there is an interesting tit bit on there.

    It told Key about the fact that the two boys had been arrested long before the police made it public.

    So what you say.
    Apparently Key never knew about a certain raid before it happened. Be interesting for someone to OIA all those communications then would it not.

    Those fucking Tui’s are getting very popular these days.

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  21. hj (6,350 comments) says:

    He did not believe new developments in areas like west Rangiora were making the flooding worse, saying the new subdivisions were designed to cope with extra water using methods like retention basins.

    Much of the floodwater was coming from rural areas, not subdivisions, he said.

    “We’ll certainly look at the performance of all our retention basins and drains and have been since March.”

    The council had been working on flooding issues in low-lying areas like south-west Kaiapoi “for decades”, but the Canterbury earthquakes had caused new issues.
    “Certainly a major drain, the Dudley Drain, was affected by the earthquake. We’ve certainly got areas of Kaiapoi that are lower because of the earthquakes.”

    Ayers said the council might need to consider creating a team to fast-track flooding solutions, similar to what the Christchurch City Council had done for dealing with recurring flooding in the Flockton Basin area.

    “The problems aren’t easy to fix. We have to be careful that we’re not just putting the water somewhere else,” he said.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/north-canterbury/10138639/North-Canterbury-homes-and-roads-flood
    ?

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  22. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    @ hj – it’s odd that you and Winston aren’t blaming immigrants for the Christchurch earthquakes too ;-)

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  23. hj (6,350 comments) says:

    “Studies have projected that with an accelerated sea level rise of 0.5 meters, 35 per cent of the Niger Delta land mass will be lost, and with accelerated sea level rise of 1.0 meters, 75 per cent of the Niger Delta will be gone under water.

    “Given this scenario, it implies that nearly 32 million people (22.6 per cent of the national population) who live along the coastal zone are at the risk of becoming environmental refugees. Such forced movement could result in social frictions arising from demands of land resources for economic activities by the refugees.”
    “In Nigeria, the impacts of climate change are manifested by erosion and landslides in the east, drought, and desertification in the north, raising sea levels in the coastal areas and flooding across the nation.”

    http://hot-topic.co.nz/out-of-africa-nigerian-environment-minister-warns-of-devastating-climate-impacts/

    Houston could deal with it!?

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  24. hj (6,350 comments) says:

    @ hj – it’s odd that you and Winston aren’t blaming immigrants for the Christchurch earthquakes too
    …..
    Funny Hugh Pavletich blamed planners for the fact that developers (“these poor chaps”) built at Bexley.

    Christchurch’s roads were already clogged with traffic before the earthquake.
    Lucky Asianhead is on TC1 land!

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  25. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    Should Labour be worried that the party is only coming third on a party vote poll on the Daily Blog? It is, after all, a trade union-funded blog, with a left-leaning audience.

    If Labour can only win 20% of the vote from its supposed supporters, how is the party going to fare with the general populus?

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/quelle-surprise.html

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  26. dime (9,430 comments) says:

    “Regarding the 12 and 13 year old boys arrrested in connection with the death of the shop keeper, should the parents of the boys be held responsible in some way?”

    Neutered?

    Some investigation as to how they raised such lousy human beings may be in order..

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  27. Ross12 (1,149 comments) says:

    I know it is an unscientific poll but todays Yahoo/news page poll asks “Do you trust the current MMP voting system to deliver the fairest result in the upcoming general election? ” ( not the best wording for the question but ..) So far 80% say no it won’t and the system is confusing. Interesting reflection of the average voter’s idea on MMP.

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  28. Colville (2,081 comments) says:

    NZ going in to bat again with a lead of 246. yipeeeee :-)

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  29. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    Poor red!
    His anti Progg Marxist Hippie Scumsucker campaign vehicle had to be rescued.

    http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201424/SCCZEN_100613SPLBREAKDOWN1_620x310.jpg

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  30. Odakyu-sen (441 comments) says:

    “Regarding the 12 and 13 year old boys arrrested in connection with the death of the shop keeper, should the parents of the boys be held responsible in some way?”

    You are assuming that the state knows who the fathers are.

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  31. Colville (2,081 comments) says:

    I see minus isnt a cricket follower. :-)

    Fulton gone for Zero. Just the start we wanted.

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  32. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    Colin Craig and Russel Norman are looking at you

    Starey ads from the leaders of the Conservative Party and the Greens reimagined

    http://www.listener.co.nz/commentary/the-internaut/colin-craig-and-russel-norman-are-looking-at-you/

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  33. Newbie (35 comments) says:

    Odakyu-sen at 9.33am:
    Okay, let me rephrase that.
    Regarding the 12 and 13 year old boys arrrested in connection with the death of the shop keeper, should the parents of the boys – should the fathers be known – be held responsible in some way?

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  34. EAD (603 comments) says:

    Norman Tebbit gets straight to the heart of the matter about Multiculturalism in Britain and why it has been such a disaster. I wonder if our political elites look at the failures overseas and ask themselves whether it is a wise decision to keep on ramming their Utopian fantasy down the throats of New Zealanders as they go about changing NZ permanently and forever?

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/normantebbit/100275737/trojan-horse-i-warned-about-this-years-ago/

    Some excerpts:

    “We have imported far too many immigrants who have come here not to live in our society, but to replicate here the society of their homelands……………….However, even if suddenly the inward flow of those unwilling to adapt their society to ours were to be entirely cut off, it might already be too late to prevent the establishment of enclaves in which our values are treated with contempt, while foreign values and even laws are promoted…………THE DOCTRINE OF MULTICULTURALISM IS A NONSENSE. A society is defined by its culture, and rival cultures are bound to create rival societies within the same territory”

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  35. Manolo (13,367 comments) says:

    Stephie’s hero recants her lies: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/10/hillary-clinton-clarifies-poverty-quip-everything/

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  36. Tarquin North (132 comments) says:

    Colville, maybe Fulton is related to Cunliffe? They are both getting worse.

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  37. Manolo (13,367 comments) says:

    The “beauty” of multiculturalism: http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/06/09/uk-cabinet-minister-urdu

    Residents in Stourbridge in the West Midlands complained that the minister spoke in Urdu, a language native to Pakistan and India, for the entirety of the meeting. Warsi is the Minister for Faith and Communities, a somewhat spurious position that critics have argued is only hers so that the Prime Minister could claim the ‘first Muslim woman in the Cabinet’ prize.

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  38. Colville (2,081 comments) says:

    Tarquin.
    You make an interesting point.
    If we swapped them around both of them could only do better than the other in their current rolls !

    Cun*liffe to open the batting next test?

    Hey I would pay good money to watch him ducking 150 km/hr bouncers. :-)

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  39. Odakyu-sen (441 comments) says:

    Hello Newbie,

    Let’s work through this one.

    First of all, what do you mean by “held responsible in some way”?

    Do you mean “charged with a criminal offense” or do you mean that the parents should be sanctioned by the community in some way? (Now, remember that “community” is a social construct; you can’t see it or touch it (although you can take a guess at who might be members of it.))

    In tightly knit, claustrophobic, pro-bullying, pro-meddling cultures like Japan, where families in the same block have known each others’ members for generations, you might have had a chance of neighbours intervening years earlier; but not a chance in NZ, where individual rights and privacy (read: authorities won’t tell you about the convicted paedophile next door) come first.

    To be honest, the only way to deal with problems like this is to prevent these kinds of children from coming into existence in the first place. I believe this has to occur at the family level. It would be far too dangerous to allow the state the power to act from the top down. Any drive to social improvement has to come from the people. In other words: teach the fish to keep their own tank clean, rather than have the state clean it.

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  40. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    newbie

    Imagine parliament passes a law…..Poor parenting.

    The result inevitably would be parents nicked for failing to inculcate the values of the times; multiculturalism,equality,blah blah blah

    What a fucking nightmare.

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  41. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    hj said

    Christchurch’s roads were already clogged with traffic before the earthquake.
    Lucky Asianhead is on TC1 land!

    Nice to see that Winston’s faithful followers keep his xenophobia alive and well. Keep it classy hj :D

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  42. Manolo (13,367 comments) says:

    Muppets and puppets have been bought found:
    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8858220/internet-party-prepares-to-name-candidates

    Kim Dotcom’s Internet Party will announce its election candidates on Thursday next week.

    Party leader Laila Harre says 140 applicants have been whittled down to 22 and they’re being evaluated to decide which electorates will be targeted. “All of them will be exceptional candidates, we’ve been incredibly impressed.”

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  43. goldnkiwi (993 comments) says:

    Should the inept worker be fired for releasing the PM’s notes even if mistakenly, (who could say)? Should the msm publish said notes when clearly not the intended recipient? What if it had been really sensitive information?

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  44. Newbie (35 comments) says:

    Odakyu-sen – refer to my response to Kowtow somewhere above.
    But Kowtow at 10am perhaps rules out my suggestion.

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  45. Manolo (13,367 comments) says:

    UT must be elated, his fighters are winning: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/insurgents-seize-iraqi-city-of-mosul-as-troops-flee/2014/06/10/21061e87-8fcd-4ed3-bc94-0e309af0a674_story.html

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  46. safesally (47 comments) says:

    Good day Harriet
    re your post June 11th, 2014 at 8:03 am

    Thank you. Very good post. I train and encourage others to do so. Militant feminists (or Femi-Nazis) don’t represent us and never have. Most people believe in equality and won’t put up with these women trying to turn women against men.

    I was bemused to see how feminists in the United States ignored the attacks on Sarah Palin and her clothing when Barack Obama’s suits were worth thousands. Probably his colour had something to do with it.

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  47. goldnkiwi (993 comments) says:

    Kow Tow parents can be held responsible for truancy/non attendance of school. In the States parents can be held responsible for criminal damage I think. Government can currently penalise parents for some acts I believe by reducing benefits for ie not sending children to day care etc, wasn’t there something re immunisation?

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  48. wiseowl (762 comments) says:

    Bang on EAD.
    If only we had a leader that could see what is happening elsewhere and be honest and upfront about it before its too late for this great country.

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  49. cricko (203 comments) says:

    Gosh! Hilary Clinton gets a tough interview and it didn’t go good.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/06/10/abc-newss-diane-sawyer-destroys-hillary-rodham-clinton-on-benghazi/

    I hope there are more interviews like this comming down the track for some others too.

    Compare Diane Sawyers skills to the crap we have to put up with in NZ (Barry Soper,Campbel,lPaddy, etc.)

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  50. Viking2 (11,129 comments) says:

    big bruv.
    thought you said it isn’t windy in Auckland.

    The Auckland Harbour Bridge is now open to all traffic including heavy trucks.

    It had earlier been closed due to ferocious winds, making the structure move.

    Auckland: Rough night last night! Winds peaked 131 km/hr Harbour Bridge,145 km/hr Whangaparaoa.

    worse than Wellington.

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  51. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    Oh the joys of multiculturalism.

    A school in Devon gets a less than outstanding report because all its children are white. To “improve” this they will undergo a trip to a school where the kids aren’t all white.

    Not quite Soviet style re education but it’s a start.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2653494/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-So-white-British-crime.html

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  52. Jack5 (4,589 comments) says:

    Kowtow (11.13)

    Then there’s the Islamic fundamentalist moves to hijack schools in the UK.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27779832

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  53. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    jack 5

    yes that’s what EAD’s post was about.

    The funny thing is Britain is so fucked up now that on the one hand “local communities” can’t be trusted to run schools (Islamic) and are being shafted (Hang on I thought we were all for multiculturalism) while at the other end of the spectrum Devon gets shafted for being too white!(not multicultural enough)

    I worry because so many of our pollies ( John Key included) academics ,media ,various state bodies ,etc constantly bleat that we are a multicultural society when we’re not.Multi ethnic perhaps.But no to multiculturalism.

    Time for them to pay attention to the backlash ,finally gathering pace in Europe.

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  54. Manolo (13,367 comments) says:

    The incompetent Messiah is determined to change the country he presides over:
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/9/editorial-the-childrens-hour/#ixzz34FktLx7J

    Children’s surge of illegal aliens is overwhelming the southwest border. Obama’s dreamy promise lures thousands to the border.

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  55. Odakyu-sen (441 comments) says:

    The questions are:

    What are the stated benefits of multiculturalism to a society from the perspectives of: a) the people who are driving multiculturalism, and b) the people forced by this drive to change their behaviors. Hint: look for the gaps in the responses between groups a) and b).

    What are the advantages of multiculturalism?
    What are the goals of the kinds of people who would promote multiculturalism?
    Are the people who promote multiculturalism likely to achieve their goals? What could possibly go wrong?

    Discuss…

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  56. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Once upon a time Catholic immigration received a negative response in WASP cultures.

    Catholics had their own schools and thus were also “separatist”.

    The only difference is that Moslems in the UK seem to expect public funding of schools they can control, and they are to serve the goal of Moslem activists to keep the children of immigrants from integrating into the secular society, so they can develop a power base for themselves within the host nation.

    Thus of course the importance of oversight of the schools, their curriculum and teaching.

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  57. Viking2 (11,129 comments) says:

    big bruv.

    It get worse.

    Emergency services were kept busy as winds gusting up to 170kmh brought down trees, cut power and damaged properties.

    Here in Tauranga we have just endured two hours of the heaviest rain. Fully expect lots of flooded places.

    http://sunlive.co.nz/news/74386-warning-as-downpours-to-come.html

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  58. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Yes in the past the same view of Catholics was held by WASP society.

    So it is an irony that some Catholics are the most zealous in the fear of Moslem migrants.

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  59. srylands (386 comments) says:

    Does anyone know if the ACT Party List has been finalised? I can’t find it on their website (which is awful).

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  60. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    SPC

    Big difference between Catholics in “Wasp” society and Muslims.

    Catholics were an integral part of those societies,always were.In fact everyone was Catholic prior to the reformation movement.Wasps were an innovation that became a majority.

    Education in the Christian west was largely church run.In the early 1800′s that changed in Britain with the introduction of secularism in schools and the dropping of Religious education. But the chuches ,always having been involved in education continued to have their own schools.

    What you have here is Muslim immigrants and their descendants taking over state run ,secular schools and turning them Islamic. And the Muslim is new,the catholic ancient and as I said integral to western society and culture.

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  61. Manolo (13,367 comments) says:

    The reply of a spineless, limp and lame UK government: http://www.bbc.com/news/education-27778272

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  62. dirty harry (428 comments) says:

    13 year old charged with murder and aggravated robbery .. what a toilet this country has become. We gotta ask ourselves why…and don’t blame me/you like someone did on talkback this morn.. ” its everyones fault dont you see “..utter bollocks.

    13 year olds know right from wrong. This shit is pure evil.

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  63. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    kowtow, the risk in the UK is a result of their school system changes – a warning to us if we allow charter schools to proliferate to all and sundry.

    The problem is that the Moslem parents are supposed to support the activists, or else be seen as not supporting their Moslem community cause. And they are bullied if they step out of line.

    PS I was referring to the Catholic migration to the USA, Oz and Enzed.

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  64. dime (9,430 comments) says:

    “The only difference is that Moslems in the UK”

    urgh, ive seen that spelling a few times this week. is this the latest left wing thing? they will go with that spelling.. like all of a sudden its a different group of shit bags

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  65. Manolo (13,367 comments) says:

    13 year old charged with murder and aggravated robbery… This shit is pure evil.

    The result of a broken welfare system which pays scum to procreate and live at taxpayer’s expense all their miserable lives.

    We do not know it yet, but chances are this murderer comes from a broken “family”, where all the beastly parents did was to collect a benefit to indulge in vice, taking no interest in their children.

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  66. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    Is on the Herald site now, as well. Jihadists have taken over a large part of Iraq (and I think they mentioned Syria and Pakistan on One News).

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11271695

    So, when are people going to stop appeasing these people and realize the threat? Probably not until the liberals are up against the wall about to be shot. Because, it’s “Islamophobic” or somehow racist to not agree with them, you know….

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  67. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    dime, for your edification

    Your surmise is, as you find if you read this link, somewhat wrong.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2588439/posts

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  68. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Fletch, it appears I.S.I.S. has found Syria too tough and has decided northern Iraq is its new base.

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  69. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    SPC

    USA,oz,Enzed.

    Yep.But what I said still applies.Catholics an integral and indigenous part of the source countries and therefore of those new societies.

    The USA had it right with E Pluribus Unum. From many into one.

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  70. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    What’s the bet that those five Taliban released by Obama had something to do with the Iraq takeover? Oh, and well done for pulling the troops out of there Obama. Your foreign policy instincts are unerring (NOT)

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  71. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Given there is no connection I’ll take any bet offered Fletch.

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  72. dirty harry (428 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10143906/PM-must-reveal-UN-costs-Labour

    Ask your previous leader tojo…how much did she spend on the UN sucking up so she could get a life long cushy number , you bastards have short memories.

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  73. hj (6,350 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock (9,945 comments) says:
    June 11th, 2014 at 10:03 am

    hj said

    Christchurch’s roads were already clogged with traffic before the earthquake.
    Lucky Asianhead is on TC1 land!

    Nice to see that Winston’s faithful followers keep his xenophobia alive and well. Keep it classy h
    ……………………….
    Claims of racism?:
    “Asianhead” (Avonhead) Chowick (Howick) , Pomna (Sumner) etc tch, tch, tch. 30%? of Epsom is Asian.

    claims of xenophobia?

    It took me one hour to get from the main south raod to the center of the city once before the earthquake (I think that was before the first earthquake).
    It takes 3 to 4 years income to supply the infrastructure for each additional person. What’s more population increase is government policy. It isn’t that our growing economy requires workers; our economy requires workers to grow the economy (so far it is only benefiting a minority (people serving sector).

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  74. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    Fletch

    you have a very poor and ignorant understanding about what is going on in Iraq, Syria and other parts of the Middle East. At the heart of the conflicts is the deep and bitter historical enmity between Shia and Sunni. Similar actually to the past divisions between Catholic and Protestant that saw centuries of bloodshed and wars between them.

    An irony is that it’s this bitter division that ensures Israel’s survival as Islam cannot present a united front against them. Very difficult to see how these bitter sectarian divisions are caused by liberals ,but hey this is not about rational analysis or informed and reasoned understanding is it.?,

    But those who do wish to be be informed the following could be useful,

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14132#.U5ex_Cjd1Wg

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25471361

    and,

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-vicious-schism-between-sunni-and-shia-has-been-poisoning-islam-for-1400-years–and-its-getting-worse-9139525.html

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  75. SGA (811 comments) says:

    Colville at 9:41 am & 9:29 am

    NZ going in to bat again with a lead of 246. yipeeeee :-)

    Fulton gone for Zero. Just the start we wanted.

    So why didn’t we get them to follow on? WI only lasted 81 overs, spinners bowled 40 of those, a good night’s kip a few overs away – it’s not as though our attack should be too shagged out for tomorrow. Then see if you can win by an innings, or at least know how you must approach batting in order to win the game on the last day. Any ideas anyone?

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  76. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    Manolo and the lynch mob ,a double killing such as this may help to bring some perspective on the tragedy in Henderson last evening,

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9259099/Child-murderer-jailed

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  77. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    Newbie (welcome Sir/Madam), Odakyu; dirty Harry et al.

    The first thing you need to get your head around is that the environment in which these boys will have almost certainly been raised will be like nothing you recognise. One of you said at 13 one knows good from evil…Sorry but NO…there is no rule of psychology or child development which says a sense of right and wrong – or good and evil if you prefer – is innate. What is right and wrong and good and evil is LEARNED.

    And the development of an imprinted moral code takes places much earlier than people like to think…as the Jesuits used to say “give me a child till he is seven…” Almost certainly these boys will have been raised in “homes” where to lie and cheat and steal are the norm, and also where violence is seen not as a last but a FIRST resort when resolving conflict..Being “staunch” as the sole virtue…

    The really hard thing for liberals (both small and large “L” ) to accept is that past about age 10 such imprinting is unchangeable…It doesn’t matter what is done with these two ratbags; it doesnt matter what “treatment” they receive inside, they are fundamentally damaged human beings, and will remain dangerous. (Reference Bailey Junior Kuraraiki…glowing reports when he was released; violent reoffending within months)

    What to do about it? Others have highlighted some of the many difficulties inherent in somehow holding the parents responsible…someone noted – correctly – that any sort of “curriculum of values” imposed by the state is inherently problematic, and ripe for political capture. Perhaps that old chestnut sterilization is the only sensible response? Does nothing to fix these two and the undoubted others at their homes ready to follow their path, but it would stop any more candidates…

    Righto..stand by for the comparisons with the “N” word chaps….

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  78. mikenmild (10,720 comments) says:

    SGA
    Always the more conservative approach is to not enforce the follow on. Have the West Indies facing a huge target in the last innings of the match.

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  79. SGA (811 comments) says:

    David Garrett at 1:57 pm

    Righto..stand by for the comparisons with the “N” word chaps….

    Damned if I didn’t spend a little while trying to figure out why a comparison involving “nigger” would be relevant – then the penny dropped.

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  80. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    No, “Moslem” is the new “nigger”.

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  81. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    Stephie: The Jade Bayliss case is, as far as I am aware, the first time the Crown has sought LWOP, available since the Sentencing and Parole Reform Act 2010…In my view this case would have richly deserved a sentence of LWOP…23 years is a long NPP but surely not long enough for a person who has killed for a second time? Who knows who will be on the Parole Board and what then current bullshit will be fashionable in 23 years? …LWOP means that’s the end of the prick, and the family can get…that silly word “closure”…

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  82. Longknives (4,456 comments) says:

    DG- Quite simply the hard-working, law abiding New Zealand taxpayer should NOT be paying feral scum so handsomely to breed.
    “The first thing you need to get your head around is that the environment in which these boys will have almost certainly been raised will be like nothing you recognise”
    Well said! I have had a little experience of these people and can confirm that the children are simply meal tickets- more kids=more money from WINZ. Concepts like ‘raising them properly’ and ‘installing values’ are non-existent. Another kid is simply more money for another box of Woodstock, bag of weed and a lash at the Pokies every Wednesday night.

    There was a Maori woman (who could barely string a sentence together) on the news the other night moaning to the camera for a flasher state house- She had nine bloody kids! How many of those kids will grow up to contribute positively to society? I’m not talking necessarily about becoming a Doctor or a Lawyer but simply holding down a job,paying tax and abiding by the law of the land? Jesus it does your head in thinking about what we will be spending on Welfare in another twenty years or so…
    Phew- after that rant I think I’d better go lie down..

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  83. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    DG, sterilisation is no less an imposed state solution (than values induction).

    And the ability to accurately forecast accurately risk of poor parenting would be inadequate – make the risk of a death sentence falling on an innocent man seem negligible.

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  84. dime (9,430 comments) says:

    “The really hard thing for liberals (both small and large “L” ) to accept is that past about age 10 such imprinting is unchangeable…It doesn’t matter what is done with these two ratbags; it doesnt matter what “treatment” they receive inside, they are fundamentally damaged human beings, and will remain dangerous.”

    The only thing i disagree with is your use of the word liberal. Nothing liberal about the controlling left.

    Sociopath numbers have gone through the roof in the last 25 years. why?

    Mums raising kids alone. Apparently kids learn empathy from the dads..

    You have damaged kids raising damaged kids.. how the hell is some messed up 17 year old supposed to raise a decent human being?

    until the welfare tap is turned off and kids are discouraged from having kids, we are gonna see more and more of this.

    the left will scream “inequality” and “we need more money for the poor” etc but no matter how much they get, it wont change a dam thing

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  85. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    dime, the crime rate is falling substantially in many western nations.

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  86. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Why is the use of the word “Moslem” being marginalised as the word nigger has been for those not black.

    “Muslims” think “Moslem” should be a word used only by them and when speaking Arabic.

    —————————————————————-

    Is it Muslim or Moslem?

    When Baby Boomers were children it was Moslem. The American Heritage Dictionary (1992) noted, “Moslem is the form predominantly preferred in journalism and popular usage. Muslim is preferred by scholars and by English-speaking adherents of Islam.”

    No more. Now, almost everybody uses Muslim.

    According to the Center for Nonproliferation Studies, “Moslem and Muslim are basically two different spellings for the same word.”

    But the seemingly arbitrary choice of spellings is a sensitive subject for many followers of Islam.

    Whereas for most English speakers, the two words are synonymous in meaning, the Arabic roots of the two words are very different.

    A Muslim in Arabic means “one who gives himself to God,” and is by definition, someone who adheres to Islam.

    By contrast, a Moslem in Arabic means “one who is evil and unjust” when the word is pronounced, as it is in English, Mozlem with a z.

    Journalists switched to Muslim from Moslem in recent years under pressure from Islamic groups.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2588439/posts

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  87. dime (9,430 comments) says:

    “dime, the crime rate is falling substantially in many western nations.”

    and do you think the levels of shit bags is falling?

    or are we just looking more of em up so they cant commit more crime?

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  88. Jack5 (4,589 comments) says:

    Good article by Tim Hunter in Stuff today, which highlights how trusts can be used to safeguard assets.

    In this case Hunter suggests some directors of a failed finance company apparently live fairly high on the hog while their high-value homes are owned by trusts.

    Reform of trust legislation is long overdue in NZ. How does NZ get such high rankings for non-corruption when it has a set-up that makes trusts such safe piggy banks?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/10142030/Duped-investors-want-full-disclosure

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  89. dime (9,430 comments) says:

    why are the “caring left” so keen to see these awful teenage mothers continue to churn out bad people?

    dont ya feel for the kids?

    i was at my brothers McMansion the other night. Visiting the newest heir to my fortune (aged about 3 weeks). Shes all happy in this huge house, two parents, its warm. basically she won the lotto.

    Then i think to myself, right now there is some poor baby, in a shitty rental with some loser teenage mum. what chance does it have?

    i know its not my fault! despite the left constantly telling me i need to “pay my fair share”.

    its the fault of the enablers – the ones who think the DPB is this god given right that can never be messed with.

    im blaming labour for the latest death. its on them.

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  90. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    SPC: The crime rate is falling in many western nations because said nations have finally stopped fucking around with bullshit “programs” designed to rehabilitate recidivist offenders, and put the foot down on the imprisonment pedal…Minimum NPP’s for murder of 30 and 40 years are now common in Australia and the UK..in the US almost all states have adopted some form of “sentence enhancement” – of which three strikes is just one variant – and impose LWOP for the kind of murders that often dont reach the 17 year threshold for aggravated murder here…

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  91. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    dime, “im blaming labour for the latest death. its on them.”

    How does that work.?

    Are all the children of parents on the DPF etc murderers or committing vile crimes.

    and what about this pale face,?,

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9259099/Child-murderer-jailed

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  92. goldnkiwi (993 comments) says:

    Read about health checks akin to WOF checks for people. If ones life insurance required it and reduced premiums were offered, I reckon Drs visits would increase.

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  93. dime (9,430 comments) says:

    “Are all the children of parents on the DPF etc murderers or committing vile crimes.”

    not sure what our host has to do with it.

    ill be fucking surprised if these two killers come from a home where the parents work.. and have worked their entire lives.

    love how thats all you take out of the post. no compassion for the babies living with teenage mums? mums who dont know how to raise a kid cause.. they are still kids themselves!

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  94. dime (9,430 comments) says:

    “and what about this pale face,?,”

    pale face? why are you so obsessed with colour?

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  95. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    dime, I think your rushing to judgment yet again. We simply do not have the full facts but by all means vent your spleen if he you feel you have to.
    You made allusion to those on the DPF through their so called enablers.
    LIke Paula Bennett.?
    Am glad to see unlike Manolo you don’t prejudge the issue suggesting they must be PIs or Maoris.
    Good stuff.!
    Or do you.?

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  96. Longknives (4,456 comments) says:

    Stephieboy- Afraid I just had a look and the TAB odds are pretty short…

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  97. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    Drugs and drug culture (not alcohol)is a huge part in the increase in violent ,senseless and extreme violence we are seeing.

    We discuss “multiculturalism” and the importation of negative anti mainstream values.Think all that “bro” and gang talk bollox that so many young, and not so young NZers engage in. There’s a really naff Telecom ad along those lines “giganaire”.
    Prison fashion is part of our culture too with underwear on display.It’s beyond me.
    “Entertainment” for huge numbers is that incredibly negative , criminal and violent playstaion “game” Grand Theft Auto.

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  98. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Not alcohol, Kowtow?

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  99. mikenmild (10,720 comments) says:

    But we aren’t seeing any ‘increase in violent, senseless and extreme violence’. Loved that term ‘violent…violence’ BTW.

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  100. wreck1080 (3,730 comments) says:

    Got the latest consumer mag, interesting stat, since 2000, electricity has risen by 46% “after inflation”.

    Quite a hike really, since after inflation price should not really have moved at all.

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  101. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    Hey bigots,this is happening today in secular modern Aotearoa…….let’s have some of your false compassion for the deceased and anger hatred and bile for the owners of the institution.

    Oops ,no point, it’s not run by dirty filthy vicious Catholic nuns. Nothing to see here ,move along please.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/10142190/Rest-home-strep-A-infection-kills-five

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  102. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    kowtow, public health officials praised management for quickly providing vaccinations to the residents of the rest home to contain the outbreak.

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  103. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    milksop…..don’t come the grammar fascist.None of us are fucken Dostoyevskies,makes you appear a bigger prick than you already are.

    Ryan. Not alcohol. I’m talking about the introduction of foreign and specifically drug culture. Alcohol being part and parcel of our culture.Drugs more of a sixties innovation.

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  104. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    SPC

    Ah that makes the 5 deaths OK then?

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  105. mikenmild (10,720 comments) says:

    Sorry kowtow, I was mainly commenting that your point about increasing violence was nonsense. Pointing out your infelicity was just an aside.

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  106. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    DG, our government has a focus on rehabilitation and the crime rate is falling here too. Ending drug addiction and enabling work is the surest way.

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  107. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    Len Brown engaging with Maori wardens in his response to that murder. Bit of a hint as to the accused,wouldn’t you say Watson?

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  108. Komata (1,110 comments) says:

    Dirty Harry:

    From memory, klark spent approximately NZD 14 Million of our money (possibly even more), ‘currying favour’ (aka ‘donating’ to the UN ‘on behalf of the people of New Zealand’, who knew nothing about it) over the years of her reign in NZ. Nothing was ever said, of course, cos’ it’s different when labour do it. These ‘donations’ only emerged after she had left to take up her ill-gotten posting. IMHO Mr Cunnliffe really should be very careful when he starts asking these questions; boomerangs have been known to return to those who throw them . . .

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  109. dime (9,430 comments) says:

    “You made allusion to those on the DPF through their so called enablers.
    LIke Paula Bennett.?
    Am glad to see unlike Manolo you don’t prejudge the issue suggesting they must be PIs or Maoris.
    Good stuff.!
    Or do you.?”

    Dime is no Paula Bennett fan. Happy shes made some inroads into getting people off the DPB. Still not impressed she let that violent thug live at her house instead of being in prison on remand.

    As for what these 2 youngsters are.. Willie Jackson said hes pretty sure he knows who they are and that they are maori.

    When i hear of crimes like this, if Dime was placing a bet it would be in that direction simply because the stats tell us so.

    Just like when a plane explodes i think “POS mOslem”

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  110. Longknives (4,456 comments) says:

    “Len Brown engaging with Maori wardens”
    “Willie Jackson said hes pretty sure he knows who they are”

    Those TAB odds are shortening by the minute lads! Reckon any chance of a humble apology from Stephieboy and co??

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  111. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    The words Humble and stephieboy don’t belong in the same sentence together.

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  112. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    Why the ‘babies-in-a-septic-tank’ story is more than likely a media hoax –

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/06/09/that-story-about-irish-babies-in-a-septic-tank-is-a-media-hoax/

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  113. Manolo (13,367 comments) says:

    Stephie is just another feminist do-gooder with his head firmly stuck in the sand.
    The result of many years of illiberal “education”.

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  114. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    No way fletch

    As the bigot nasska said the other day ,Corless and the Irish Times must have been leant on by the Church ( where does he get his info from) to retract. Now obviously some dark mysterious evil catholic organisation must be exerting its world wide conspiratorial tentacles and influence to ensure the truth is hidden.

    I’m beginning to think an albino must have gone to Bishop Selwyn Home and poisoned the elderly there.You just can’t trust a left footer.

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  115. Chuck Bird (4,682 comments) says:

    There is a good chance that the one charged with murder may get convicted of manslaughter under New Zealand law.

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  116. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    No one plays the victim better than those claim to be the source of Western Christendom. Nor so quick to gather together and identify someone or some group to target as a threat … A heroic martyr complex, but a paranoid heroic martyr not ready to carry any cross themselves.

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  117. RightNow (6,659 comments) says:

    “Pointing out your infelicity was just an aside.”

    I was in Felicity once. Well, more than once actually.

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  118. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    SPC: (re your earlier post, not the 4.13) You wont hear any argument from me against rehab programmes for young and first time offenders…the reality for repeat offenders is though – sadly – NOTHING that has been tried here has worked for them, and that is also the picture internationally.

    That famous avuncular grandfather Kim Workman got the go ahead to try HIS “love them and they will become good” theory in the early 90′s. Read the result in Greg Newbold’s paper “Another one bites the dust: Recent initiatives in Correctional Reform in New Zealand.” ‘Australian and New Zealand journal of Criminology’ Vol. 41 3 2008

    Newbold is the only criminologist worthy of the name in New Zealand. All the rest are just apologists for criminals, or seek to make us believe life in the 1950′s was no less dangerous than now. Newbold is of the firm opinion that rehabilitation of second or subsequent offenders will be very rare, and will only happen when the offender really wants to reform. No rehab programme for those offenders will be worth a damn Newbold says.

    That is of course why we structured three strikes as we did: You get two chances and two warnings….if you offend again in the same manner you go to jail for a long time…(at least 7 years, up to life if the third strike is murder or manslaughter)

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  119. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    I wonder if anyone is reading anything into the fire alarm going off at the Australian High Commission after Abbott claimed to be a leader of an anti GW movement that included New Zealand without consulting us first?

    Is ASIO investigating a breach of their security by … ?

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  120. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    fletch
    You keep bringing up the fact that 796 kids remains are dumped on that site in an unknown location .

    Is not a hoax its a headline over exaggeration typical of the msm.

    The 20 or so kids remains found In a disused and unmarked septic tank is what started the woman looking into the death certificates of children who died in the place.

    It brought up the fact that there is no official record of a burial site for 795 children.of any kind.

    Where are the remains? Probably dumped on that site somewhere in mass graves including those in the shittank.

    Or

    Did they practice cannibalism or run the boiler on the bits? is that why there are no graves ?

    Such sickness shouldn’t surprise in a cult that eats a dead persons flesh and drinks his blood as part of its weekly brainwash and shame sessions.

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  121. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    The words intelligence and kowtow ( and Manolo ) don’t belong in the same sentence together.

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  122. Viking2 (11,129 comments) says:

    Big upset in US politics

    US House Majority Leader Eric Cantor has lost in his Republican primary election to a little-known economics professor, a stunning upset for the No. 2 Republican in the House and a major victory for the ultraconservative tea party movement.

    Cantor, viewed as a possible successor to House Speaker John Boehner, was taken down by a political novice with little money named Dave Brat. His win marked the biggest triumph this year for tea party supporters who until a few years ago backed Cantor, a former state legislator who rose to Majority Leader in 2011.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/10145170/Big-upset-in-US-politics

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  123. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    DG, most will accept that rehabilitation is not an all inclusive approach, for how long it is seen as viable an option as to the extent of recidivism is where there are differences of opinion. I don’t think an insurance type approach to risk management would find a balance where at three strikes the rehabilitation would so soon be discarded. It’s just that for some types of offending the risk to public safety is too high.

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  124. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    You keep bringing up the fact that 796 kids remains are dumped on that site in an unknown location .

    And I keep on bringing up the fact that no such number has been found. Neither have they been dumped. The 796 is the number of birth certificates for children who may have died while staying there.
    Have you even read the article?

    Today the Irish Times has published a reader’s letter that has further undercut the story. Finbar McCormick, a professor of geography at Queen’s University Belfast, sharply admonished the media for describing the children’s last resting place as a septic tank. He added: “The structure as described is much more likely to be a shaft burial vault, a common method of burial used in the recent past and still used today in many part of Europe.

    “In the 19th century, deep brick-lined shafts were constructed and covered with a large slab which often doubled as a flatly laid headstone. These were common in 19th-century urban cemeteries…..Such tombs are still used extensively in Mediterranean countries. I recently saw such structures being constructed in a churchyard in Croatia. The shaft was made of concrete blocks, plastered internally and roofed with large concrete slabs.

    “Many maternity hospitals in Ireland had a communal burial place for stillborn children or those who died soon after birth. These were sometimes in a nearby graveyard but more often in a special area within the grounds of the hospital.”

    For anyone familiar with Ireland (I was brought up there in the 1950s and 1960s), the story of nuns consciously throwing babies into a septic tank never made much sense. Although many aforesaid nuns might have been holier-than-thou harridans, they were nothing if not God-fearing and therefore unlikely to treat human remains with the sort of outright blasphemy implied in the septic tank story.

    [...]

    At the end of the day, the verifiable facts that have emerged so far amount merely to a strong story for the media of one small country. The one “fact” that turned all this from a disturbing national story to a screaming global sensation is one that is almost certainly false.

    So it isn’t a septic tank. it was more than likely a communal burial site, which was quite common, and which, yes, you would expect to find skeletons in.

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  125. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    SPC: If I could understand you I might even agree…have another crack at it…

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  126. Viking2 (11,129 comments) says:

    Microsoft fights US warrant for user emails

    Microsoft, one of the world’s largest email providers, is resisting a government search warrant to compel the firm to turn over customer data held in a server located overseas.

    In what could be a landmark case, the Redmond, Washington, company is arguing that such a warrant is not justified by law or the Constitution. Microsoft and other tech firms also fear that if the government prevails and can reach across borders, foreign individuals and businesses will flee to their non-US competitors.

    The materials sought by the government are emails held in a Microsoft data centre in Ireland and connected to a drug-trafficking investigation.

    more..http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60098183/microsoft-fights-us-warrant-for-user-emails.html

    It just keeps on getting worse doesn’t it.
    Won’t need a new cable to the states soon. Better to have one to china or India. Why would anyone trust the US anymore.

    The battle, which began in December when a magistrate judge in New York issued the warrant, also raises significant economic and diplomatic issues for US companies that store mounds of data for others as part of the burgeoning cloud computing industry, which has been battered in the wake of revelations about its co-operation with US spy agencies conducting broad surveillance.

    “If the government’s position prevails, it would have huge detrimental impacts on American cloud companies that do business abroad,” said Michael Vatis, a lawyer who co-authored a friend-of-the-court brief for internet service provider Verizon, which operates data centres overseas and which filed its brief Tuesday in support of Microsoft.

    Microsoft’s efforts to push back against the government in this and other cases, company officials say, predate the disclosures by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden about the reach of US surveillance. But the revelations, which began a year ago, “certainly put a premium on demonstrating to people that we are fighting,” said one Microsoft official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to speak for the company.

    The legal issues are novel – a classic example of how technology has lapped the law. Only a few years ago, US email providers held their data in the United States, so there was no issue of whether a court had jurisdiction to issue a warrant for the data.

    more..http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60098183/microsoft-fights-us-warrant-for-user-emails.html

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  127. Viking2 (11,129 comments) says:

    No Petone stadium for Wellington Phoenix

    The Petone Arena plan is dead after Hutt City councillors voted unanimously to drop the proposal this afternoon.

    Public feedback had been overwhelmingly negative on the idea, which would have seen a 12,000-seat stadium for Phoenix football club built over half of the Petone Recreation Ground.

    Loss of green space, loss of playing fields for local sports clubs, and lack of parking were the most common complaints.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/10145482/No-Petone-stadium-for-Wellington-Phoenix
    ====================
    so the Hutt Councillors continue with their stirling efforts to keep rates under control and debt low.

    Great Stuff.

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  128. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    stehpie ,you just put kowtow and intelligence in the same sentence but said they didn’t belong together in the same sentence.How intelligent was that?

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  129. mikenmild (10,720 comments) says:

    Yes V2, the Petone Arena was a dog of a proposal. If your problem with Westpac Stadium is that the crowds are too small, you don’t solve it by going and building a smaller stadium.

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  130. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    Kow tow going about drug culture is his usually standard :lol:
    Alcohol is not relevant as a drug because its part of his conservative culture.

    It fulls the jails, courts psychiatric units, and hospitals with piss soaked idiots as a result of alcohol attributable self harm and harm to everyone around them.

    We would save a fortune if all we have to do is pay a few tens of thousand of vague excessive stoners and junkies the dole instead.

    Alcohol is a drug and is also a recreational drug that you chose to take and us such should be judged like any other recreational drug.

    Its level of sanction should be proportional to the harm it does.

    Especially the harm it does to those around the drunkards of society.

    ——————————-

    DG is right the Chardonnay socialists and many of the better off have absolutely no idea of the depravity of these family’s who create feral monster kids.

    They are not just exposed to violence and depravity they are funkin deliberately trained in it by their whanua

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  131. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    ‘Alcohol is part of his “conservative” culture.’

    Not sure it’s got anything to do with conservatism,but too right it’s deeply ingrained in our culture ,so keep your fucken hands off it.

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  132. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    Cantor gone and immigration is a big part of that.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/06/10/TOP-8-CONSEQUENCES-OF-CANTORS-DEFEAT

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  133. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    During prohibition in the 1920′s USA, Republicans made a big issue of Smith the Democratic Presidential candidate being Catholic and … a likely drunk.

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  134. Chuck Bird (4,682 comments) says:

    I read that the accused supporters are yelling out, “I love you” and “stay strong”. What is wrong with the judge. They should be tossed in the cells for a while and then apologize to the the victims family and the Court. If they don’t leave in for a few day for contempt of court.

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  135. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    SPC

    And your point is……..

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  136. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    The Republican Tea Party patriot WASP’s opposing “wet” Catholic migrants to the USA, what has changed?

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  137. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    Not sure it’s got anything to do with conservatism,but too right it’s deeply ingrained in our culture
    :lol:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism
    Conservatism as a political and social philosophy promotes retaining traditional social institutions. A person who follows the philosophies of conservatism is referred to as a traditionalist or conservative. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others, called reactionaries, oppose modernism and seek a return to “the way things were”

    Q.E.D

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  138. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    The legal status of the migrants?The wetbacks are illegal immigrants. Religion doesn’t matter.If that’s what you’re alluding to.

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  139. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    The Republican WASP fear of becoming a demographic minority, and the European Catholics who take their side … – meanwhile the Pope clears Europeans out of the Vatican one post at a time.

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  140. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    The link provided by Fletch @ 4.02pm leads to an article by, ” Eamonn Fingleton Contributor A sharp eye on media bias, official propaganda, and globaloney”, included under the “business” section of Forbes…..for reasons that so far escape me.

    Predictably the besieged Papists, both here & Ireland, are trying desperately to frame the debate. 796 bodies weren’t found at Tuam…….the structure wasn’t a septic tank but a “shaft burial vault”. Should the spin continue it will have become a foundation for an abandoned cathedral come Friday.

    Regrettably for the Godaddled I could care less whether the bodies were buried or ground up for fertiliser as was probably the case. Contrary to those who take the supernatural seriously when you’re dead you’re dead & no amount of chanting, incense or blessings is going to make any difference to the fact.

    What, as I indicated yesterday, concerns me is the cruel treatment meted out to the unwed mothers & their wretched babies by the religious arseholes who were supposedly charged with their welfare.

    It stinks to the high heavens you fantasise about.

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  141. SGA (811 comments) says:

    Fletch at 4:41 pm

    He added: “The structure as described is much more likely to be a shaft burial vault, a common method of burial used in the recent past and still used today in many part of Europe.

    Maybe he’s right, but it doesn’t sound as though he’s even seen a photo of it, let alone been there, so it’s hard to place too much confidence in his opinion at this point.

    Be that as it may, the good ol’ days weren’t necessarily so.

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  142. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    Griff , the quote about “conservatism”needs revising and updating to include the embracing of conspiracy theory and racial bigotry.

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  143. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Dime,

    Much earlier in the day, you were asking about “Moslems”. It’s an old fashioned way of spelling “Muslims”. Probably means the people using it have been reading some history.

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  144. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    Nasska: I tend to agree…and this “shaft burial vault” as apparently found in Croatia sounds more than a little suss to me…In behind my house out here I have a structure than sounds very similar to what 20 or 420 or 796 baby skeletons were found…a square concrete tank buried in the ground with a small concrete hatch on top…It is used very time I take a poo or have a shower…Ireland is not Croatia…

    Mind you, as someone said above, the God fearing Nuns would have had some trouble throwing any body into a septic tank…But then these were cursed babies born of fallen women, and still bearing the stain of original sin…

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  145. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    I’m reading the thread backwards now, and I see why I didn’t notice SPC’s 2:29 comment when I searched for “Moslems” – should have searched “Moslem” instead! Sorry about the redundant comment, this one and the previous one.

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  146. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    On the same day the Catholic spin machine reached full revs the Washington Post agreed that the number of skeletons were less than first reports claim. Fair enough, but it too starts looking further into the story:

    ….”So it’s all a big misunderstanding?

    Not so fast. No one is challenging Corless’s archival research, which appears to show that nearly 800 babies and children died at the home over a period of 40 years, without burial records. Locals believe that they are buried in an unofficial graveyard at the back of the building, where they have built a small grotto and placed flowers. One expert on health and mortality in Ireland believes that the death rates are much higher than they ought to have been and deserve further investigation. Contemporary debates in Ireland’s parliament reveal that children born out of wedlock in Ireland in the 1920s had a mortality rate five times higher than normal, in part because of semi-deliberate neglect. In some years in some institutions, the mortality rate for such children seems to have been above 50 percent.”….

    Lovely.

    Ref: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/06/09/the-truth-behind-irelands-dead-babies-scandal-five-questions/

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  147. Floyd60 (87 comments) says:

    The NZ Herald provides a rare glimpse in to the scripted nature of Key’s interactions with media. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11271474

    We now know that when he says “The information I have is that …” he really means it because that’s all he has been told by his handlers. I guess he preserves plausible deniability if he needs it in the future.

    “The briefing email warned Mr Key TV3 had been filming 11 UN diplomats and support staff given a free trip from New York to Queenstown – a potential source of embarrassment because the Government said it would not throw money at its bid for a UN Security Council seat.

    Mr Key appeared to be told to downplay the visit by saying it was “focused on sustainable agriculture”.

    TV3 later revealed the UN group had been taken sightseeing, shopping and on a Shotover Jet ride.

    The Prime Minister told reporters the cost of New Zealand’s bid was dwarfed by the amount spent by Australia and other countries.

    The briefing email suggested New Zealand had been caught unawares by Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott’s proposal to form an international coalition of centre-right Governments – including New Zealand – to oppose United States plans for stricter climate change policies.

    Mr Key was advised to say: “I’ve not talked to Tony Abbott about this” and to emphasise New Zealand’s record on climate change policies.

    One of his talking points was: “This Government takes climate change seriously.”

    The briefing notes also warned Mr Key not to get involved in a battle between the Bay of Plenty Regional Council and community groups over whether the wreck of the Rena is to be left on Astrolabe Reef.

    “It’s … likely to be a contentious decision … and quite likely to be the subject of legal appeals, so essentially stay as far removed as possible from it,” the notes said.”

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  148. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    Opposing Obummer.That Tony Abbott comes across better by the day!

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  149. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Nasska,

    Predictably the besieged Papists, both here & Ireland, are trying desperately to frame the debate. 796 bodies weren’t found at Tuam…….the structure wasn’t a septic tank but a “shaft burial vault”. Should the spin continue it will have become a foundation for an abandoned cathedral come Friday.

    Regrettably for the Godaddled I could care less whether the bodies were buried or ground up for fertiliser as was probably the case. Contrary to those who take the supernatural seriously when you’re dead you’re dead & no amount of chanting, incense or blessings is going to make any difference to the fact.

    Interesting that you don’t care how the bodies were buried … yet, your previous paragraph is a critique of what you consider an attempt to frame the debate – never mind that the whole thing has been blown out proportion in the first place, which you should agree with, given that you don’t care how the bodies were buried.

    What, as I indicated yesterday, concerns me is the cruel treatment meted out to the unwed mothers & their wretched babies by the religious arseholes who were supposedly charged with their welfare.

    Finding that hard to believe. It seems that this story gives you a cudgel that you otherwise wouldn’t have to then put in a couple of whacks about the supposed cruel treatment of the unwed mothers and their babies – which was society wide at the time. Everyone was religious in that society – atheists were rare, and probably ostracised in the same way or worse than unwed mothers.

    It stinks to the high heavens you fantasise about.

    I wasn’t going to comment anymore, but I’ve realised your paragraph above makes no sense. What stinks to high heaven – the way the children were buried, which you apparently don’t care about?

    If those children were born into a pagan society, such as Ancient Rome, to unwed mothers, a large proportion of them would have been left out to die. In New Zealand, those babies who are not wanted by their mothers are being killed by abortion, as has been mentioned on GD a number times now. In pre-Waitangi Treaty, Maori society, those babies very likely would have been eaten.

    Is it your contention that a society whereby unwed mothers and their babies were looked after by nuns so that at least had a chance, is worse than abortion and worse than death by exposure? Or is it that you expected nuns 100 years ago to be .. what? Abortion doctors? Or maybe you would have preferred they gave the unwed mothers money to live on as we do now, via the DPB? I’m just wondering what you expected of them. The government of the time wasn’t handing out money to unwed mothers as we do now. What did you expect of the nuns? What is this “cruel treatment” you keep mentioning?

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  150. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    “What, as I indicated yesterday, concerns me is the cruel treatment meted out to the unwed mothers & their wretched babies by the religious arseholes who were supposedly charged with their welfare.”

    Bullshit. It’s just another chance for you to gleefully expound your bigotry.

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  151. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    Under the microscope
    Must of the catholic care institutions have a justly applied name for varying degrees of depravity…
    .
    .
    Catholic school girls spring to mind.

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  152. mikenmild (10,720 comments) says:

    Nice apologetic Lucia. Totally unconvincing though.

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  153. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    Lucia: Well, I was born with the mark of the Papists…actually I suppose more accurately I should say I still bear the mark of the Papists…and whatever Nasska may think – according to you – I care very much how these poor innocents were treated, both in life and in death./…And it doesn’t really matter if it was 20 babies, 120 or the 800 odd that is the upper estimate.

    But you are the doctrinal one so educate us: Would poorly educated religiously indoctrinated Nuns care where the bodies of children born of unwed mothers were buried? Better be careful with your answer…

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  154. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    ….”Is it your contention that a society whereby unwed mothers and their babies were looked after by nuns so that at least had a chance, is worse than abortion and worse than death by exposure?”….

    A quick death or a slow one seems to be the difference. Coin tossing territory.

    But you miss my point…..there wasn’t any need for those kids to die. The government/state were miserly with their funding but it was still between one pound & ten shillings per baby per week. Nothing was offered for free to the mothers…..they could have the baby & walk out with it if they could stump up a hundred pounds….an absolute fortune at the time.

    Alternatively they could work it off in the laundry & look after their babies until they could be adopted out. Before this could happen they signed over full rights to adopt out the kid to the church.

    Therefore the so called underfunded institutions had revenues from the state, the women were working for them for peanuts for years while they charged commercial rates for their labours. Then they sold the toddlers to adoptive parents in the USA while charging the adopters for the services they provided up until that time.

    It was a racket pure & simple conducted without charity or morals.

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  155. mikenmild (10,720 comments) says:

    Baby racketeering and exploitation of the most vulnerable people at hand. Bury the kids in the garden if they die.

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  156. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    This tells me a lot about the mindset and lack of deep thought behind the good sisters missive.

    Everyone was religious in that society – atheists were rare, and probably ostracised in the same way or worse than unwed mothers.

    The place was a corrupt festering shit hole because the church was setting behavioral standards.

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  157. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    I should add that when this scandal first became public, I was very impressed that the current bishop of the Diocese has said the whole thing is a disgraceful stain, and there needs to be a full public enquiry…that is certainly a considerable advance on the Holy Mother Church’s usual reaction when disgraceful revelations are made…

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  158. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    David,

    But you are the doctrinal one so educate us: Would poorly educated religiously indoctrinated Nuns care where the bodies of children born of unwed mothers were buried? Better be careful with your answer…

    I would assume so. Though, maybe they were also concerned with the living, so being able to put bodies to rest in a makeshift crypt would have been better than spending the time digging graves. I’ve dug a grave for a cat before, and it takes a while to dig deep enough.

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  159. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    Where have you gone Lucia? Getting advice on what to say from Fr. O’Flaherty??

    Ah, I see you are back…so you believe a Croatian style burial vault – which just happens to closely resemble a septic tank – was built out the back of this particular nunnery? Really?

    and of course you are right…lifting the lid and shoving into the septic tank would indeed have been much easier than digging a grave…let alone hundreds of them

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  160. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    You bigots find it very easy to point the finger at disgusting catholic Ireland,but every country has had its problems,to a greater or lesser degree and I invite comparative statistics for deaths in similar instituions ,secular or otherwise.It is a fact that orphanages had vastly disproportionate death rates from the rest of the population. This was not unique to Catholic Ireland.

    And in relation to adoption/shame and unmarried mothers……

    “Australia, Canada, the United States and New Zealand all had similar postwar adoption practices, related to the stigma attached to being an unmarried mother. (Else, 1997)”

    From
    http://www.originsnsw.com/mentalhealth/id2.html

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  161. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Mike,

    Nice apologetic Lucia. Totally unconvincing though.

    Unconvincing of what?

    I have family members hastily buried in Kazakhstan. My uncle, a number of years back, took a trip there to put up a memorial over the grave, some 60 years or so after my grandmother and uncles and aunts were buried there, because he cared enough and had the means to do so. Where are the family members of the children of the unwed mothers?

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  162. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    ..And bring me up to speed with the current doctrine Lucia…IIRC the souls of unbaptized babies would go to Limbo…but I understand Limbo has been abolished – perhaps as long ago as Vatican II… no, I think it was later than that…so what happens to such souls now? Cant be purgatory just because the poor little buggers still bear the stain of original sin, surely?

    Kowtow: I find it very easy to believe that the death rates at orphanages – particularly in cold countries like Ireland at the beginning of the 20th Century – were much higher than now….that is an entirely different issue from how the bodies of the poor little mites were treated..

    Lucia: You cant be fucking serious…its the FAMILIES’ fault?? Its the deaths and the burials we are asking about…

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  163. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    ….” Where are the family members of the children of the unwed mothers?”…..

    Probably sitting in the same houses they kicked their pregnant daughters out of.

    Kicked them out because of the moral teachings of the Catholic church.

    The teachings to the effect that being raped & then pregnant was a mortal sin the girl should have to bear.

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  164. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/20/russia-orphanage-adopt-children-opinions-columnists-medialand.html

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  165. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    David,

    and of course you are right…lifting the lid and shoving into the septic tank would indeed have been much easier than digging a grave…let alone hundreds of them

    Yep, that’s what happens when death rates are high. Niceties go out the window.

    I still want to get my dad’s body moved from Makara. What seemed ok many years ago when I wasn’t Catholic, just doesn’t sit rightly with me anymore. One of these supposedly reusable graves. Gives me the heebie jeebies now. It was what the family could afford 20 odd years ago. Anyway, it’s on the list.

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  166. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    DG

    The septic tank issue has already been covered.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393?page=3

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  167. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Arrrh & begorrah!….it’s the old “but look over there…..he’s done it too” defence.

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  168. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    What, is your late father among PROTESTANTS?? Yep, you’d better get that fixed PDQ…God knows what penance he is doing in the meantime because you didn’t bury him in the right place…

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  169. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    You should do stand up DG. :)

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  170. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    Kowtow: I read that link (thank you)…Frankly my reading of it is that it raises more questions than it answers: how big was the “sewage tank”? A tank designed to take the shit and grey water from an institution would be very much larger than the still fairly large tank out the back of my place…there is no mention in that story of the mythical “Croatian style burial vault”…that appears to have been an “explanation” for a few days, but has now quietly died…

    But please tell me your doctrinal position…I know Lucia is a hair shirt wearing (at least mythically) Catholic, but I don’t take enough notice of the religious threads to remember your position on the spectrum…

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  171. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Nasska,

    Arrrh & begorrah!….it’s the old “but look over there…..he’s done it too” defence.

    Nope, it’s not.

    Are you arguing for a standard of care? If so, comparisons and norms of standards of care have to be made.

    We are not comparing like with like here. A modern wealthy NZ will put any country to shame.

    Love your hit and run (and little support) comments, btw. Make the apologist’s work hard.

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  172. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    ” so being able to put bodies to rest in a makeshift crypt ‘

    A makeshift crypt????? they were tossed into a septic tank.

    FFS! Lucia, is there nothing that you will not excuse the evil catholic church for?

    You really are one nasty piece of work.

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  173. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    David,

    What, is your late father among PROTESTANTS?? Yep, you’d better get that fixed PDQ…God knows what penance he is doing in the meantime because you didn’t bury him in the right place…

    As from what you’ve said, your father was a God-fearing man, even though he was a Protestant. Forget whatever you’ve been told as a child -Heaven is not denied to Protestants. However, our prayers for our deceased do help. I still pray for my dad – you need to pray for yours.

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  174. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    Go back to the old times when the church and its morel teachings led society. A time when systematically sodomizing young boys. raping your wife . beating you servants to death was not considered a crime and when the compassion of the church meant you could be incarcerated with enforced to labor for life just for being raped.
    Lovely and you blame progressives for ruining society by changing this paradigm,. :lol:
    else id fucken cry

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  175. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    Still waiting on the answer to the “where do the souls of unbaptized babies go?” Lucia…is Fr. busy??

    There must be a website: http://www.currentcatholicdoctrine.com or something similar, surely??

    Forget my prayers for my father Lucia…Answer the many questions you have been asked…where do the souls of the babies who used to go to Limbo before it was abolished is the one I’d really like to know…If you don’t know, then say so…but you seem to have appointed yourself’s KB’s resident expert on things Catholic…

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  176. Longknives (4,456 comments) says:

    Oh it’s Catholic Bashing night is it??
    I will glove up- Bring it on!
    Bottle of Scotch in one hand and Rosary Beads in the other….

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  177. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    Faith be upon us! :)

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  178. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    ‘Knives: No, at least on my part it is not “Catholic bashing night”…But Lucia – and it seems Kowtow – have stated their positions as defenders of the Catholic church…surely it is therefore incumbent upon them to either answer the questions they have been asked or at least say “I don’t know the answer” ??

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  179. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Sorry, David.

    I’m alternating between here and dishes and dinner at the moment. I’d need a clear evening to answer everything clearly.

    I don’t know where the souls of unbaptised babies go when they die – theologians have been debating that for centuries.

    It is the 30th anniversary of the suicide of my best friend today. Always ties in with when Muldoon called that snap-election. She was unbaptised as far as I know and she killed herself. Only recently I realised that God was not bound by time, therefore I could still pray for her soul. For years I thought that she was completely lost, so I had to put her out of my mind completely. But it seems the Church is always re-evaluating what is possible and likely with God, and even now suicides are not condemned to Hell because it’s dependent on whether they were totally in their right mind or not at the time.

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  180. goldnkiwi (993 comments) says:

    Floyd60 (71 comments) says:

    June 11th, 2014 at 5:57 pm

    Does it also not say that they were also going to the Fieldays? Sounds like a sustainable agriculture component to me, with a bit of tourism thrown in. What a good minister of Tourism the PM is, pragmatic and multi faceted visits.

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  181. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    I know it’s something you have strong beliefs on Lucia but what you have said about how you’ve handled your friend’s suicide seems very strange to me.

    If I wasn’t baptised and obviously haven’t killed myself do you have to put me out of your mind completely?

    I might have been token baptised. I might have attempted suicide. I don’t know what difference any of that should make if there was a god.

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  182. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    goldnkiwi: Wherever the souls of unbaptized babies go, I’m pretty sure its not to Fieldays…

    Lucia: No dear..you cant have listened to those “On becoming a Catholic” lectures very carefully…Where the souls of dead babies go hasn’t been debated “for centuries”…in fact for centuries the answer was “Limbo…which is not purgatory but not Heaven either”…Its only been a matter for debate since it was declared (God knows how) that there actually was no Limbo after all…which happened sometime between Vatican II in 1965 and the 70′s… do keep up…we rely on you here to have the answers to such matters…

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  183. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    “God-fearing” is a very strange term, especially when those who use it also seem to talk about love of their god as well. Fear and love of the same thing seems incompatible.

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  184. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    “I don’t know where the souls of unbaptised babies go when they die – theologians have been debating that for centuries.”

    To make such a statement Lucia you are either a liar, or incredibly uneducated about matters to do with your thoroughly evil church.

    The Catholic church used to teach that the souls of unbaptized children were suspended in limbo, goodness knows how much torment this put the parents of these babies through, if it was not enough to have lost a child they also has the fucking Catholic church adding to their misery with this type of mental torment.

    Only comparatively recently (in our lifetime) has the Church changed its position on this, only now do they at least offer the grieving parents the “solace” that their dead child is supposedly in heaven.

    Mind you, don’t thank the Church for this, remember these are the scum who allow Cardinal Bernard Law to carry on living in Rome in church provided accommodation, the same Bernard Law who systematically covered up thousands of cases of child abuse.

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  185. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    I saw a remarkable Polish film today Ida.Absolutely stunning and beautifully shot in monochrome capturing the austere still but luminous winter Polish rural landscape. It explores the life of eighteen year old Anna a novice at a convent where she has orphaned as child. during the war The film is set in 1962.

    Through her Aunt Wanda they begin a voyage of discovery learning the fate of her true parents ,Jews who perished in the Holocaust . Her Aunt happens to be a Public prosecutor with the Communist regime but becomes disillusioned with her work.Together they uncover Anna’s real identity,Ida and what became of her parents.The quest also examines the conflict ‘Ida ” must resolve between the world outside , the truth about herself and the Convent that saved her.Her dilemma is
    poignantly and sensitively handled including the role of the Catholic church during the dark period of the Holocaust . The film did justice to the moral complexity Ida faced . Also there were many Catholics and poles who did the decent think for Jews who were hunted down by the Nazis and SS.

    Some didn’t of course but one needs to realize the penalty for harboring and hiding Jews was death for the whole family or religious communities.

    Five stars and a highlight for this year.

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  186. goldnkiwi (993 comments) says:

    No DG I was replying to the UN delegates in Queenstown or thought I was.

    I have been to the Fieldays and it isn’t that sort of hell.

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  187. publicwatchdog (2,106 comments) says:

    PRESS RELEASE: Epsom Independent candidate ‘Anti-Corruption Whistleblower’ – Grace Haden
    To all MPS
    11 June 2014
    PRESS RELEASE: Epsom Independent candidate ‘anti-Corruption whistle-blower’ Grace Haden
    _______________________________________________________
    “I have decided to stand as an ‘Independent’ candidate in my home electorate of Epsom. I am seeking accountability from government and to achieve this I will be campaigning for an Independent Commission Against Corruption and the Ratification of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC)”), says ‘anti-Corruption whistle-blower’ Grace Haden. (https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/treaties/CAC/

    “I believe that a by-election in Epsom is essential to keep the public spotlight on the corrupt practices surrounding the resignation of ACT MP John Banks, but also shine it on the reality of the widespread corruption which is becoming more and more evident in New Zealand.

    “The harsh reality is that New Zealand’s “least corrupt country in the world “tag line is not reality but a perception and as such ,the perception is a false illusion a façade . The perception index (http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/) is frequently misquoted and does not correlate with the fact that we are one of a small handful of countries which have not ratified the United Nations convention against corruption.

    “(https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/treaties/CAC/signatories.html)

    “Despite New Zealand claiming to be “the least corrupt “ , I , a former long-serving Police officer, (and Police prosecutor), now a licensed Private Investigator, have found it impossible to get corruption investigated in New Zealand by any of the so called public watch dogs. I have discovered that we do not have corruption because we do not define it and turn a wilful blind eye to it, as occurred in the John Banks case. “

    “8 years ago, I questioned serious public corruption, provided facts and evidence to support my allegations, but so far, to no avail. I have discovered that Corruption does ruin lives – It tore my family apart.”

    “Enough is enough. No one else should have to go through what I have had to endure. Lessons need to be learned from the past and solutions found for the future. Cancer cannot be treated without a diagnosis and this is also true with corruption. Ignore corruption and like cancer it will consume us.

    “New Zealand desperately needs an Independent Commission Against Corruption, and I am pleased to report that I now have an MP who will present a petition which I initiated, seeking

    “That the House legislate to set up an independent Commission against Corruption, tasked with the prevention, education, detection and prosecution of corruption in New Zealand.”

    I have a well-established background in fighting and exposing corruption in New Zealand, these are documented on the following web sites http://www.civiljustice.co.nz/, http://www.transparency.net.nz/, http://www.anticorruption.co.nz/

    Grace Haden

    ………………………
    visit us at http://www.transparency.net.nz

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  188. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    goldnkiwi: I was making a joke.

    BB: Are you sure the soul of the unbaptized child is in Heaven?? I could be wrong (God knows I have been before!) but I thought they had declared Limbo (I’m sure it had a capital “L”) not to have existed, but they weren’t quite sure where in fact such souls went…making all due allowance for dishes duty chez Lucia, I think she might be right that it is “being debated”…

    Oh no…is it full moon again?

    So Penny…how did your new acolyte separate from the Police? did she PERF? Resign while suspended on full pay awaiting an ERA hearing??

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  189. mikenmild (10,720 comments) says:

    Penny has a clone.

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  190. goldnkiwi (993 comments) says:

    To me the reports re the orphanage sounded like the septic tank was akin to an offal hole on a farm. Hardly a Christian funeral and I do not think of the Catholic Church as poor either, hardly preaching the ethos.

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  191. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    A suicide bomber blows himself up and finds there is no Allah but Karma is the law of the universe.

    “What is going to become of me?” he said to the floating shimmering shape.

    “What you have done is pure evil and you must suffer,” said the shape.

    “Oh dear,” said the bomber, “how are you going to make me suffer?”

    “Well, it’s been decided to send you back and to make you spend a life of misery, loved by nobody and universally hated by everyone. You’re going back as a Muslim again.”

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  192. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    goldnkiwi ,

    I suggest go and see the film , read a bit more about Poland during the WW2 and view life as rather more complex than you hitherto have ever thought.!

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  193. ShawnLH (3,396 comments) says:

    “To make such a statement Lucia you are either a liar, or incredibly uneducated about matters to do with your thoroughly evil church.”

    Actually Small Sis, Lucia is right. There has never been a theological consensus in the RC regarding that issue, and the idea that unbaptised children go to Hell is simply not mainstream Christian doctrine.

    “The Catholic church used to teach that the souls of unbaptized children were suspended in limbo, goodness knows how much torment this put the parents of these babies through,”

    None I suspect, as the old (unBiblical) idea of limbo was that it was just a temporary place of rest.

    The Atheists on KB should be banned from discussing Christianity of any sort until they can prove that they are not deeply ignorant on the subject.

    But. let’s turn this around. BB suddenly cares about how parents grieve for their lost children. Yet atheism has no comfort for them at all, as it has nothing to offer grief except nihilism, despair and meaningless.

    Telling parents that God loves all children and all children are saved is far, far more comforting (and true) than telling them that they have no hope, no meaning, no comfort, just cold death and nothingness.

    That is why atheism is such a tiny, tiny little movement. From a market pov, it has nothing at all to offer people, no comfort for the suffering, no hope for reunion with our beloved death, no meaning for anything.

    Atheism is the religion of nihilism, and nihilism does not sell.

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  194. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    Stephie: And I suggest you stop trying to divert the discussion onto some filim you have seen, and let’s get at some answers about the fate of the souls of dead babies…according of course to the Holy Mother Church…but I see Lucia is AWOL again…

    Shawn: You are a fuckwit and a presumptuous one at that…Plenty of us – especially those of us subjected to the indoctrination of the Catholic church (even now I feel compelled to use a capital ‘C”) are more than qualified to debate this and related issues…And I didn’t notice anyone – certainly not me – suggesting that the place of repose of the souls of the unbaptized was hell…

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  195. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    ….” From a market pov, it has nothing at all to offer people, no comfort for the suffering, no hope for reunion with our beloved death, no meaning for anything.”…

    Right….I’ve gotcha Shawn.

    You finally now see that religion is a load of pudding…..a feel good sop for the masses.

    I beat you by over six decades but it doesn’t matter….you got there in the end. :)

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  196. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    It’s a cold day in hell when I agree with PG…but his 7.41 seems pretty well said…I have always found myself squirming a bit when that phrase “God fearing” was used…particularly since it’s supposed to all be about love…

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  197. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    Garrett.

    Sadly, your extreme bigotry against the Catholic Church that you have displayed over the past few days on the issue of the dead babies in Ireland has wiped out any respect i have had for you – you being the one who, in your ignorant youth, stole the identity of a dead baby. Hypocrisy anyone?? The fact that you have deliberately abandoned the faith that you were raised in is also and indication of your poor decisions of your youth.

    But to the question in hand, concerning the Catholic (and other mainstream Christian Churches) teaching on Limbo.
    Limbo was simply a possible explanation of the destiny of unbaptised infants when they died, because they were totally innocent – being not of the age of reason, and therefore unable to commit sin . Limbo was described as a place of perfect happiness, except that they did not enjoy the presence of God.

    Limbo was never a doctrinal teaching of the Church – Catholic or Protestant. The teaching today – but not declared yet as a confirmed doctrine that I am aware of – is that because unbaptised infants, either through death by natural causes, or murdered through abortion, because they are totally innocent, receive what is known as Baptism of Desire – that is, if they were able to make a decision, and being totally innocent, they would desire Baptism. So they are in Heaven in the presence of a loving and merciful God.

    Hope that clarifies things for you WRT the terriblr Catholic church and its teachings.

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  198. goldnkiwi (993 comments) says:

    Re the unbaptized babies, I insisted on my faith baptising my daughter before she had an operation (just in case). They tried to tell me that I should probably attend more and that she should take lessons.

    I replied with a, ‘your congregation is dying, you should just be pleased that someone wants to give you a possible relevance’. Or words to that effect.

    I have never felt the same since they changed the Lord’s Prayer. There should be constants in life that you can come in and out of and I believe ones religion should be one of those.

    Stephieboy, all I think is dignity before expediency. A plague situation? Expediency. Inconvenient truth? Not so much.

    As for unwed mothers, the men that impregnated them were well aware of the fate they condemned the women and children to. I know who I think should have been damned. Those that sprayed and walked away!!! Mind you marriage was no blessing if you take Angela’s Ashes as representative of Irish life.

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  199. Steve (North Shore) (4,499 comments) says:

    ‘filim’
    That’s a good word, makes people double take, yep he did it on purpose.
    There are films and filims. ssshhh now, Lucy is reading and wondering

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  200. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Jesus nasska my mum and dad were Free Church of Scotland. Those folk made the Rev. Ian Paisley look like a Papist!

    I married my wife (a Catholic) 43 years ago. I had to wait till my folks were back in Scotland before I dared! :)

    So the wife could have a church wedding I promised to bring the future kids up as Catholics.

    Needless to say neither the wife, nor I, nor the sprogs have ever entered the doors of a Catholic church again!

    And Shawn dares to lecture us old bastards that have been there done that…The arrogance of youth!! :) :)

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  201. David Garrett (6,422 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi: I don’t give a fuck what you think or thought of me…And frankly I am over apologising for my “dead baby” foolishness…the “baby” was 2 1/2 when he died, and had been dead for 25 years when I used his name to obtain a passport I never used…that is why I got discharged without conviction…because I had NEVER USED the damn thing…

    and WTF has all that got to do with this latest disgraceful episode in the history of the modern Catholic Church?

    Johnboy: You mean you have never been smote from on high because of your dreadful breaking of the sacred covenant? Only a matter of time…Where’s Lucia when we want her? (In a totally biblical sense of course…)

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  202. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    David Garrett, now in the role of the comments chief of police.?
    I urge you also to try and restrain your abuse.!
    goldenkiwi, again try and take on board my suggestions and not view life as either black or white. The facts are many Catholics like non catholics behaved both commendably and non commendably towards the Jews .
    Am sure this business in Ireland can be treated in a similar kind of way instead of a blanket demonizing people or institutions .

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  203. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Fucking old nun’s tossed the poor wee mites into the septic to avoid shame and save the church money Don.

    Meant the Priest could afford an extra bottle of whiskey that week! :)

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  204. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    Garrett.

    Touched a raw nerve did we? Tut tut.

    Sort your facts out – your bigotry is inexcusable considering your profession. I thought lawyers examined ALL the facts.
    You’re falling down badly.
    And I don’t give a fuck that you don’t give a fuck – more lawyerly language I see.

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  205. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    I think our boy might be a slow learner JB. :)

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  206. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    Johnboy.

    You need to check ALL the facts too.
    All people -nuns, Christians, atheists – everyone – are subject to making bad decisions that they – we – regret later. It is one thing to criticise taking all the facts into account. It is another to allow blind bigotry to colour what we say.

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  207. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Shawn and Don are going to hop on the next flight to Erins Isle and start some archeological digging to expiate their mortal souls I suspect David! :)

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  208. Harriet (4,514 comments) says:

    “……It’s a cold day in hell when I agree with PG…but his 7.41 seems pretty well said…I have always found myself squirming a bit when that phrase “God fearing” was used…particularly since it’s supposed to all be about love……”

    Jesus was pretty stern with his language.

    Being a ‘nice’ Christian to others at all times is not what it is about. Appeasing those who sin is not the answer.

    Joel Osteen is one of those mega church stars in the US who never says the word ‘sin’ to his followers. A lot of those ‘Churches’ don’t. It’s all about ‘feeling good’ at all times.

    Larry King got into him over that.

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  209. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    So the Priest that refused to marry us two days before the wedding, after all the preps were done and reneged when the mother-law (a convert) told him he could stick his church up his arse if he didn’t go through with it was just having a bad hair day then was he Don? :)

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  210. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    Johnboy.

    Maybe. I wouldn’t pass judgement on him, or you, or your good wife, or you mother-in-law.
    But if what you say is correct, the priest was in error – he should have recommended you to your sheep months before. ;-)

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  211. Harriet (4,514 comments) says:

    John boy…….It appears a few of the regulars now want the Vatican to be ‘nice’ to those pedophiles. :cool:

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  212. goldnkiwi (993 comments) says:

    Stephieboy

    I appreciate that every institution is made up of individuals, the good, the bad and the ugly. I guess in the Irish Catholic sense we could get on to contraception and women not being property and that obviously sex caused children and children could not be afforded as there was a famine and the Church held fast on its doctrines, and still to this day.

    You seem to have jumped to the Holocaust and mass disposal of bodies I assume?

    In the Irish story if the septic tank was close to the buildings they could well have been a source of further illness. If the church was supposed to be more learned than the masses, then they should have been aware of that. I did not read that the bones were burned. There will be more details to come no doubt.

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  213. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Funnily enough Don you know not what you say.

    A year after his problem with our marriage he got the hots for the wife’s younger sister and ended up leaving the church and went back to the family sheep farm! :)

    All’s well that ends well I guess! :)

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  214. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    Shawnlh

    I am more than happy to discuss religion with you, I am also more than happy to keep pointing out the lies you consistently tell.

    Now, onto this little beauty.

    “But. let’s turn this around. BB suddenly cares about how parents grieve for their lost children. Yet atheism has no comfort for them at all, as it has nothing to offer grief except nihilism, despair and meaningless.

    Telling parents that God loves all children and all children are saved is far, far more comforting (and true) than telling them that they have no hope, no meaning, no comfort, just cold death and nothingness.”

    Of course I feel for any parent who has lost a child, you bible bashers don’t have a monopoly on sympathy. Your stance (and that of religion) is evil, its says that your god took a child’s life because he has a plan for that child, and you think this is should be some sort of solace for the grieving family. If it was not bad enough that parents are dealing with the loss of a child you then go and compound the pain by filling their minds with utter bullshit about your god comforting that child.

    Death is cold Shawn, death is final, there is nothing after that and anybody who tried to tell me that it was gods will should I ever lose a child would receive more than just a mouthful of abuse.

    Oh, and for limbo, you are telling lies Shawn. The church taught for years that unbaptized children spent eternity in limbo, this of course was just another way that the church kept control over its followers. Religion is well versed in using fear in such a manner, its god demands constant slavish praise, so much so that if god actually existed (which of course he does not) there is more than enough proof to say that your god is a psychopath.

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  215. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    You’re a bloody dag Johnboy (meant in the nicest possible way, of course ;-) )

    He has to live with his decisions, and be judged by them – but not judged by us. :-)

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  216. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    FFS!

    Now we have don the dickhead trying to tell us that chucking the bodies of dead babies into a septic tank was a public health measure.

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  217. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    Harriet

    Being nice to paedophiles is the norm for the Vatican. Ask Lucia about the where Cardinal Bernard Law is living these days.

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  218. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    bb.

    Where did I say that?

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  219. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    ….” ended up leaving the church and went back to the family sheep farm! “…..

    It is hard to separate a true shepherd from his flock. :)

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  220. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    I judged him Don. I decided he was a silly little randy prick. So did the rest of the family.

    You have to stop letting your silly religious beliefs get in the way of your good judgement Don.

    We can all tell you’re not a bad sort of chap apart from that mote in your eye! :)

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  221. goldnkiwi (993 comments) says:

    BB I was saying quite the opposite, I was trying to make the point that the Church should have known more than the ignorant masses and that knowledge re disease etc had advanced considerably and that their duty of care was greater than to the appalling conditions and treatment of the living. The reasons that there are rules around burial are due to the spread of contagion.

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  222. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    goldnkiwi , all the film Ida did was made me appreciate the complexity of the moral dilemmas that individuals and institutions like the church are placed and involved in. Its the stuff of living, of life and things are not as simple and plain sailing as you may wish them to be.
    You see there is big bruv spouting of again as though pedophilia was an exclusively catholic church problem or issue.

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  223. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    I do find it interesting that Catholic apologists will bend any story against their sick religion into one that attempts to show the Church in a positive manner. Tonight we have witnessed Don and Lucia attempting to defend the indefensible when it comes to babies, the same people who tell is abortion is a sin yet when the Catholic church is caught chucking babies into a septic tank there is some strange reason as to why this is acceptable.

    I don’t know if anybody else has raised this but is there any proof that these babies were already dead with they were tossed into the septic tank?, given the past deeds of the Catholic church it would come as no surprise to me to find that these babies were tossed into the septic tank whilst very much alive. If that is indeed the case (and I suspect it was) then I suppose we should hope that none of the priests had their way with these poor children before they were cast into the septic tank.

    Some of you might find the very idea of that appalling, well read up a bit on the horrors of the Catholic church and you will find that what I have suggested is nothing more than par for the course when it comes to those bastards.

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  224. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    Stephieboy

    “You see there is big bruv spouting of again as though pedophilia was an exclusively catholic church problem or issue.”

    Not exclusively, they just happen to be the only group who actively sanctioned child rape and child sexual abuse.

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  225. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    DG

    You got mail.

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  226. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Do you suspect bb that the poor wee children were the result of the Priests having their way with the Nuns and it was all to cover up the crime before Bishop Brennan came round on his annual inspection tour? :)

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  227. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    Johnboy

    The poor kids were the result of the Catholic church’s evil teachings re contraception. Remember this is the same church who thinks that AIDS is bad but not quite as bad as condoms.

    Do I think that there might have been the odd priest around who buggered the kids before they were tossed into the septic tank?, who knows, however on past form one would have to say that it would not be like the Church to miss out on an opportunity.

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  228. kowtow (7,625 comments) says:

    DG

    I;m not seeking to defend the Catholic Church in particular.

    I’m posting here to put some context on the sensationalised Tuam story.

    We simply do not know how the deceased were treated in death. We weren’t there. There was most likely a very simple ceremony, I read somewhere they were probably buried in a burial shroud.

    They were almost certainly not “dumped” or unceremoniously tossed into an active septic tank,full of shit, as the bigots here are only too happy to outright claim was the case.

    As to dogma, I don’t go there.I have my own views on religiosity which is privy to none but me.

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  229. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    big bigot.

    You’re a sick piece of shit – much worse than those catholics that you make up despicable lies about, based on a small amount of truth.
    You want to check the statictics of child abuse in schools – latest report, 20 times greater than the worst abuses in the Catholic – or other – churches.
    What you say is simply not credible to any normal thinking person.

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  230. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    The wife used to tell me about the beatings they got from the nuns at the Catholic school in Kilbirnie Don.

    Must have been all in her mind I guess? :)

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  231. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    By the way, I case you think it’s all in my mind regarding the dodgy priest it was Holy Family Church Porirua Don. :)

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  232. goldnkiwi (993 comments) says:

    On a lighter note

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10145498/Expert-shows-court-fake-invoice-theory

    This sort of thing doesn’t help the CHCH situation at all.

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  233. stephieboy (2,179 comments) says:

    I am not a Catholic but a good friend of mind who lived at Port Chalmers told me the nuns at her convent school back in the 50s were very forward thinking and rarely used the ruler or strap.
    Even better in that respect than their state school counterparts.

    big bruv,

    “Not exclusively, they just happen to be the only group who actively sanctioned child rape and child sexual abuse.”

    Actively sanction.?? Were you a victim then.?

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  234. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    Johnboy.

    I am not doubting for one minute your story about the priest. I am aware that this happens, and know – or knew – a priest who took off with one of his parishioners – he died about 20 years ago. Maybe she was too much for him ? ;-) . I live in Tauranga, and have only ever driven through Porirua.

    I never went to a catholic primary school, and i have heard that some nuns were pretty severe in the discipline department. But i would suggest no more so than the state primary school I went to . Getting the strap – boys and girls – was a regular, if not daily occurance. Have to admit though, i and my mates were bits of smartarse kids :-)

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  235. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    “Deep in prayer my cross to bear,
    I kneel upon the floor.
    Temptations of a Catholic priest aren’t easy to ignore.
    But I can not control myself
    It rips my soul apart!
    For one small sheep among my flock has
    Stole this shepherd’s heart.”

    — Stephen Lynch :)

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  236. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Don, I was strapped on my first day at school for not being able to tie my shoe laces. My mother took me out of the convent a few months later after I arrived home with a blood blister on my knob inflicted by a nun with a school ruler. I was five.

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  237. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    ….” . I live in Tauranga, and have only ever driven through Porirua.”…..

    Don’t blame you Don…..most vehicle GPS units nowadays have a voice feature that warns you to lock your doors when you approach Porirua. :)

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  238. publicwatchdog (2,106 comments) says:

    Seen this Kiwibloggers?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2650475/More-mass-baby-graves-Ireland-Prime-Minister-Enda-Kenny-orders-investigation-memorial-800-dead-babies-planned.htm

    Thousands of children in Irish care homes at centre of ‘baby graves scandal’ were used in secret vaccine trials in the 1930s

    Scientists secretly gave 2,051 children and babies diphtheria vaccine

    They were used as guinea pigs for drugs giant Burroughs Wellcome in 1930s

    Academic Michael Dwyer uncovered shock truth in old medical records

    He found no evidence of consent, nor of how many died or were affected

    Comes as Irish PM intervenes from U.S. over scandal of mass baby grave

    Hundreds of babies are believed to have been buried at former baby home

    Enda Kenny says he’s ordered his officials to examine ‘if there are others’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2650475/More-mass-baby-graves-Ireland-Prime-Minister-Enda-Kenny-orders-investigation-memorial-800-dead-babies-planned.html#ixzz34K2vx0ET
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    http://www.salon.com/2014/06/09/the_catholic_irish_babies_scandal_it_gets_much_worse/

    It gets worse. One week after revelations of how over the span of 35 years, a County Galway home for unwed mothers cavalierly disposed of the bodies of nearly 800 babies and toddlers on a site that held a septic tank, new reports are leveling a whole different set of charges about what happened to the children of those Irish homes.

    In harrowing new information revealed this weekend, the Daily Mail has uncovered medical records that suggest 2,051 children across several Irish care homes were given a diphtheria vaccine from pharmaceutical company Burroughs Wellcome in a suspected illegal drug trial that ran from 1930 to 1936.

    As the Mail reports, “Michael Dwyer, of Cork University’s School of History, found the child vaccination data by trawling through tens of thousands of medical journal articles and archive files. He discovered that the trials were carried out before the vaccine was made available for commercial use in the UK.”

    There is no evidence yet – and there may never be – that any family consent was ever offered, or about how many children had adverse effects or died as a result of the vaccinations.
    Dwyer told the Mail,

    “The fact that no record of these trials can be found in the files relating to the Department of Local Government and Public Health, the Municipal Health Reports relating to Cork and Dublin, or the Wellcome Archives in London, suggests that vaccine trials would not have been acceptable to government, municipal authorities, or the general public.

    However, the fact that reports of these trials were published in the most prestigious medical journals suggests that this type of human experimentation was largely accepted by medical practitioners and facilitated by authorities in charge of children’s residential institutions.”

    In a related story, GSK — formerly Wellcome — revealed Monday on Newstalk Radio that 298 children in 10 different care homes were involved in medical trials in the ’60s and ’70s that left “80 children ill after they were accidentally administered a vaccine intended for cattle.”
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

    http://truthman30.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/the-irish-nuns-the-babies-for-sale-and-the-gsk-wellcome-foundation-vaccine-trials-in-ireland/

    The Irish Nuns, The Babies For Sale, And The Scandal Of The GSK (Wellcome Foundation) Vaccine Trials In Ireland…
    Posted on June 5, 2014

    “Dr Saunders, happy with the trials wrote “the results confirm the results obtained by Wellcome with guinea pigs”.

    “According to a 1932 medical journal, Wellcome lab workers who prepared the vaccine for diphtheria had a “complete lack of experience of its use with human beings”

    “The initial trials were carried out on 436 kids from the general child population in cork”

    “Some of the original batches of the alum-toxoid vaccine, which comprised of 9 per cent aluminium, caused severe reaction like fatal abscesses and hard lumps at the injection site.”

    “As over one third of children vaccinated didn’t return for subsequent treatments, the severity of many of the side-effects were not known. “

    (Sunday World 6th June 2014)

    “A spokesman for GSK – formerly Wellcome – said: ‘The activities that have been described to us date back over 70 years and, if true, are clearly very distressing.”

    …The trial was published in the ‘British Medical Journal’ in 1962. The final paragraph of it read:

    “We are indebted to the medical officers in charge of the children’s homes. . . for permission to carry out this investigation on infants under their care.”

    “The trials involved incredibly poor judgment on the part of all involved. We were basically used as human guinea pigs,” Ms Steed told the Irish Independent.”

    “It was time the truth came out about the drugs trials.”

    “The call came after it emerged a woman adopted from Ireland in 1961, who was involved in a vaccine trial as a baby without the permission of her mother, is to take legal action against the drugs company involved.”

    “Mari Steed (50), who lives in the US, is to take action along with three others against GlaxoSmithKline, which as “The Wellcome Foundation” at the time the trials were conducted.”

    (Irish Times 2010
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    ‘Seek truth from facts’.

    How widespread was this sickening practice – using such little kids as human guinea pigs for drug companies?

    Bloody disgraceful.

    Penny Bright

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  239. nasska (10,674 comments) says:

    ….”I arrived home with a blood blister on my knob inflicted by a nun with a school ruler.”….

    Good God cha…..do you still get these irresistible urges to visit Madam Lash’s House of Pain? :)

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  240. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    You should see the anguish it causes when you tell folk from Whitby that they really live in Waitangarua North nasska! :)

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  241. Don the Kiwi (1,593 comments) says:

    Piss off Penny.

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  242. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Penny’s onto it now. Any Catholic school alumni with knob trouble will soon get their water cut off! :)

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  243. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    If you guy’s liked nasska’s religious poem you’ll love this one:

    Twas midnight in the crypt of St.Giles
    When an ear piercing scream rent the aisles
    My goodness my gracious cried Father Ignatius
    Lord Bishop beware of my piles

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  244. SGA (811 comments) says:

    My goodness. Just finished watching this week’s episode of GoT – one hour of unrelenting battle scenes. Thought I’d have a quick look at KB for a change of pace. Oh well…..

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  245. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    Don don’t minimize the abuse that was systematical perpetrated on the young charges at christian care institutions.

    To do so is perpetuating the attitude that enabled the abuse.

    It is documented in numerous reports and admitted to by the some of the more honest church’s leaders.

    As well as numerous convictions and death bed confessions of the perpetrators.

    http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/03-07.php

    One particular morning he …(Br X)… put me up against the wall because I was left handed, he put me hands up against the wall like that …indicated arms stretched above head… he started flogging me with the leather strap. This particular session I lost all control and soiled myself, he took me by the ear straight out, around to the showers. He wanted me to strip off and get into the shower, the water was freezing. … It’s very hard for me to tell this … but I want to tell it anyway … I was crouched down in the corner, he grabbed me by the hair into the cubicle, dragged me up off the floor, on the lats you know, lats for the seats and he buggered me again, and told me to shut up, I was screaming, I was in sheer pain you know. He had done it before in my bed and he made me bleed, he tore the skin you know. It could be once a week and then he mightn’t come near you for a month. It lasted for all the years I was there.

    or

    I always thought there was someone coming for me. It’s only when I think back now they …(Brothers)… were so clever. I don’t know if you get what I’m saying to you, with regards paedophilia if you know what I mean, they had a knack of it. …The sexual abuse or the physical abuse wouldn’t start straight away, but don’t forget you’re 11 years of age, you’re lonely, you have nobody. The next thing the Brother would put his arms around you or he would be nice to you. It was somebody to hold on to, then after a while the sexual abuse would start. … To this day it kills me, I tried to please them. I tried to please them for a hug, somebody to put their arms around you. You were constantly told “nobody wants you, you’re not wanted”…. He’d bring you into a room and put the arm around you and giving you a sweet and then hands would drop down and eventually he would bugger you. I thought I was a bad boy and that …(sexual abuse)… was your punishment. When they’d get fed up with you they would start hitting you. After the sexual act you would get a box in the mouth off him…. It started after 2 weeks there, new comers were like new meat.

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  246. RRM (9,453 comments) says:

    Featherston Police actually achieved something today!

    Car chase, the cops managed to t-bone an innocent bystander, who ended up parked upside down on his roof and lucky not to be in hospital. Cop car was a write-off, and needless to say the trash they were pursuing got away. Excellent.

    Meanwhile, my neighbour who had to track down the trash who burgled her by herself (traced the ip address of her stolen pc to a house in Masterton, she even gave the police the street address to go to) still doesn’t know if anyone’s been charged.

    No wonder they’re closing our police station, it’s just a waste of money, not really solving crime or even deterring it. Useless.

    Maybe we’ll have to behead a couple of villains ourselves, since the police and govt are obviously not interested in or capable of dealing with crime around here…

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  247. Griff (6,765 comments) says:

    Come on rrm you know police time is spent much more constructively parked all day on a two lane and almost empty stretch of road like the toll section of the northern motorway just in case some low life violent crim dear to do 105kmh .
    It must be so because over queens birthday week end there was three such cars and piglets so gainfully employed.
    The nasty law breaking miscreants who had endured hours of doing 60/70 kmh hour stuck behind the lovely slow driving ignorant self absorbed road hogging wankers who infest our roads are always allowing their speed to increase to 100kmh and sometimes inadvertently more when it is safe to do so.

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