General Debate 16 June 2014

June 16th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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192 Responses to “General Debate 16 June 2014”

  1. db.. (87 comments) says:

    Hey Griff, Test your IQ against this
    http://sciencespeak.com/climate.html

    If you can, If you dare!

    db..

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  2. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    Let the games begin.
    Labour takes aim and scores a direct hit, into it’s own foot.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11274606

    Seriously, you can’t make this shit up

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  3. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    I recall the glee the world’s MSM took in releasing the Abu Ghraib photos and story.It was first up on the TV news and screaming front page headlines for some time.

    Mass murder of Iraqi prisoners by our friends from the religion of peace? Not much of a story.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10901034/New-evidence-of-atrocities-as-Iraqi-forces-halt-Islamist-advance.html

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  4. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    This article was in yesterday’s Herald: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=11272828

    In it Prime Minister Key on a visit to a newly opened Canterbury school stated that this was a “window into the future of what all New Zealand schools will eventually look like”. Intrigued, I clicked into the article to see what this vision was. Expecting to see that the Government would be taking steps to ensure we improve from 23rd & 18th respectively in the World at Maths & Science, I was a little underwhelmed when I read that the vision was “that the school was able school produce its own power, was sustainable and had a radio station”. Further children were able to work using modern methods including “working on cushions, small pods of chairs, or lying on the floor”

    Many people will rant and rail at such madness and type of thinking that is now “modern” New Zealand. Whether it is “anti-smacking laws”, “multiculturalism” lenient prison sentences, ridiculous health and safety laws, the green agenda or numerous examples of Orwell’s “Newspeak” (i.e. “Kiwis” fighting for the Taliban) they will flail around like a punch drunk boxer not knowing what is hitting them. If only they would come to their senses and appreciate that there are such things as conspiracies.

    All of the above and many more are examples of New Zealand being insidiously undermined by Frankfurt school Marxists who are working through numerous institutions to turn our society into a dysfunctional hell hole. More people of a libertarian/right-leaning nature have got to wake up to this. We have to do more than win the argument – we have to develop a sense of sheer bloody minded obduracy to be used consistently with those who misrule us and those who seek to misdirect our thoughts.

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  5. Keeping Stock (9,373 comments) says:

    Is Donghua Liu one of the anonymous donors to David Cunliffe’s secret trust? The revelation this morning that he gave $15,000 to Labour in 2007, after all Labour’s carping about cronyism with regard to Liu, exposes Labour as absolute hypocrites.

    And David Cunliffe needs to once and for all declare who his anonymous donors were, or questions like this will continue to be asked. He has only himself to blame.

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/labours-liu-hypocrisy.html

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  6. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    As per Lance (8.07am) and Keeping Stock (8.16am):

    Secret donors? Accusations of donations equating to access to Ministers? Dinners hosted in China? Mmmm – sounds familiar…..

    Naturally (in order to avoid being accused of total hypocrisy), Robertson / Cunliffe / Mallard et al, will soon turn upon their own party and demand resignations.

    Yeah, Right!

    EDIT: Topic already covered – comment reduced to avoid repetition.

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  7. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    Anti smacking laws…….that’s really working a treat!

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/306004/man-held-after-baby-critically-hurt

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  8. Komata (1,220 comments) says:

    Re: Inet/ Mana

    I only heard the last few sentences at on Red Radio at 2200 last night (15 June), but are Hone and Co. seeking some sort of alteration to the political party membership threshold (currently set at 500 verifiable / paid up individuals, as Peter Dunne well knows), and are to attempt to lower them via an ‘on-line petition’ which will be presented to Parliament in due course?

    Noticeably the RR 0600 news this morning did not repeat the story.

    I’m not surprised that I/M would do such a thing, (par for the course and all that), but can anyone provide the details?

    Thanks

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  9. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    Lenient prison sentences……..

    6 years for a vicious attempted murder…….

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/306002/plea-victims-mother

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  10. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Joe Nova real name Joanne Codling
    A failed kids tv presenter. :lol:
    Thank fuck she has restyled her wingnut blog from its former red and black scheme it used to give me a head ache every time I read it.

    If you want science you go to an actual science site with actual scientist involved not that of an expert in media and propaganda .

    The right wings climate denial wingnuttery, a propensity to believe any fringe blog they read over establishment science based sources is exactly the same as the moonbats on the left going to alt med sites and writing of all actual medical research.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joanne_Nova

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  11. Floyd60 (95 comments) says:

    The Press reports http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/10160784/Tackle-on-streaker-challenged

    “Forsyth Barr Stadium officials are reviewing a ”king hit” tackle made by a security guard – linked to Canterbury rugby – on a streaker during the All Blacks test against England in Dunedin.

    The guard, who made the flying tackle from behind, violently snapping the streaker’s head back, is understood to be in Canterbury rugby’s ITM Cup wider training squad.”

    King hit from behind – an insight in to the vigilante justice mentality. Name the security guard.

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  12. Keeping Stock (9,373 comments) says:

    @ Elaycee – Cunliffe can’t claim he doesn’t know who the anonymous donors are/were; didn’t he promise to refund their money, so that he wouldn’t have to declare them as pecuniary interests? So how would he have known who to give the money back to?

    And are Donghua Liu and Bill Liu related? Both were granted residence (despite official advice that they should not have been), and both dined with then-Internal Affairs Minister Rick Barker.

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  13. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Are you serious Floyd? Some attention seeking dick streaks at a rugby game and gets tackled? What did he expect? To be given the ball and allowed to score a try?

    Has bugger all sympathy for the muppet.

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  14. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    I recall the glee the world’s MSM took in releasing the Abu Ghraib photos and story.It was first up on the TV news and screaming front page headlines for some time.

    Mass murder of Iraqi prisoners by our friends from the religion of peace? Not much of a story.

    It’s almost as if we expect a higher standard of behaviour from Western democracies than we do from lawless militant thugs.

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  15. Ashley Schaeffer (535 comments) says:

    Lenient prison sentences……..
    6 years for a vicious attempted murder…….

    Seriously, how the fuck can that be worth only six years? The feral should be in an asylum for the rest of his life – and that’s me putting on my compassionate hat. What is wrong with the criminal justice system in this country? It simply beggars belief.

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  16. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    @Floyd60: King hit from behind – an insight in to the vigilante justice mentality. Name the security guard.

    Bollocks.

    A moron decides to take off his kit and run naked onto the pitch in the middle of a televised International Rugby game. And a person paid to keep morons off the pitch, chased him / tackled him / removed him from the scene / handed him over to the Police. The idiot streaker should be taken to Court / fined / make to look like the complete prat he is.

    And the tackler? Good on him – a job well done.

    Actions have consequences. Something the streaker may now remember.

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  17. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    Griff – do you mean the multiple award winning Jo Nova who has won several awards for her outstanding blog? I’ve seen her interviewed a number of times and I will tell you she is one of the smartest commentators in Australasia. Whilst she is is most well known for her excellent work on debunking the climate change fraud, she has a very sharp economics brain as well. This article below being one of her best and she convinced James Delingpole around to her way of thinking about economics.

    Well worth a read:

    http://joannenova.com.au/2012/03/we-are-all-austrians-now/

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  18. Ashley Schaeffer (535 comments) says:

    I’m with Floyd. And I’m normally an actions have consequences kind of guy. But THAT tackle on the streaker was simple thuggery. Unless the safety of others is in genuine jeopardy, then there is no justification for the kind of assault that occurred. If the guy had been walking down the street naked, do you think the cops would get away with that kind of hit under the guise of arrest? That kind of tackle wasn’t necessary to remove him from the pitch and could have put him in a wheelchair. Sorry, but he doesn’t deserve that. That security guard is the kind of brainless meathead who will end up killing someone as an overzealous bouncer.

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  19. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Can “Tojo” Cuniffe come clean on his association with Mr Liu? He was Minister of Immigration when there was a lot of shit going down, and maybe there is complicity somewhere, he would like to stay hidden!

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  20. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    @ Ryan Sproull –

    “It’s almost as if we expect a higher standard of behaviour from Western democracies than we do from lawless militant thugs”

    But we couldn’t possibly do that though as it would be politically incorrect. The cultural marxists have been telling us for some time that all cultures are equal. A long history of Islamic misogyny & violence or African voodoo are all equivalent to Western and East Asian Civilizations and should be “celebrated”. Let’s not mention Maori Cannibalism or concepts of “Utu” before the “evil” whities came across “to send Maoridom back to the dark ages”.

    /sarc.

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  21. Ashley Schaeffer (535 comments) says:

    Streakers used to be considered a bit of fun once. When did we all become so serious about a game of footy?

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  22. Manolo (14,165 comments) says:

    The richest 10 per cent of New Zealanders are wealthier than the rest of the population combined, according to figures cited by Oxfam NZ.

    Rachael Le Mesurier, Oxfam NZ’s executive director, disagreed, and said we were becoming more divided, “with an elite who are seeing their bank balances go up, while hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders struggle to make ends meet”.

    More tripe and fuel to the socialist’s fire. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=11274603

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  23. stigie (1,434 comments) says:

    “But THAT tackle on the streaker was simple thuggery”

    Yes, but maybe he was a communist !!

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  24. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    Jo Novas partner and contributor to the blog is Dr David Evans.
    Dr David Evans is an electrical engineer and mathematician, who earned six university degrees over ten years, including a PhD from Stanford University in electrical engineering (digital signal processing): PhD. (E.E), M.S. (E.E.), M.S. (Stats) [at Stanford], B.E. (Hons, University Medal), M.A. (Applied Math), B.Sc.[University of Sydney]. His specialty is in Fourier analysis and signal processing. He trained with Professor Ronald Bracewell late of Stanford University.

    David has worked in the climate industry, consulting full-time for the Australian Greenhouse Office from 1999 to 2005, and part-time for the Department of Climate Change from 2008 to 2010. He was the lead modeler analyzing the carbon in Australia’s biosphere for Kyoto accounting purposes, and developed the world-leading carbon accounting model FullCAM that Australia uses in the land use change and forestry sector.

    Looks like a scientist to me. Certainly more qualified than the cartoonist John Cook from Skank Science.

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  25. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    That streaker……..

    http://www.odt.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/306000/tackle-made-streaker-subject-review

    It certainly was a big hit.Having said that streakers (and any other pitch intrusion) is potentially dangerous to the players ,needs to be dealt with quickly and firmly.The security man did his job.Too bad for the streaker that the tackler’s a footie player and was employing his skills accordingly.

    There was quite a cheer from the crowd when the idiot got onto the field ……..and an even bigger one for the tackle.

    Simple lesson,go to the footie to watch it, not to be the entertainment.

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  26. Ashley Schaeffer (535 comments) says:

    Ha ha, wow, you guys really hate the streakers huh? :-)

    I’d better cross that off my bucket-list then.

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  27. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Ashley, the fun for the streaker is the attention and avoiding security. Well, that didn’t pan out for him. I don’t see why the security guy should be labelled being a thug for his efforts.

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  28. Manolo (14,165 comments) says:

    Yes, a wise decision, Ashley.
    Good on the security guard for thumping the naked moron.

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  29. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    EAD
    lovely I didn’t bother pointing out that in her view the massive conspiracy of the worlds scientific bodies and governments over climate change pales into insignificance with the conspiracy of the anti Christ and sundry others to take over the economy of the usa etc. We could even include her views on 9/11 in her list of global conspirowhacky if you would like.
    From your link
    http://joannenova.com.au/2012/03/we-are-all-austrians-now/

    It’s no surprise, really, that skeptics of government science would also be skeptics of government money. My message to all the sleeping skeptics out there is: get with the game. When I said climate science is the second biggest scam in history, I wasn’t joking.

    Its way to wacky for me to even bother engaging and honestly only the terminally insane take that sort of thing seriously!

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  30. Floyd60 (95 comments) says:

    As I say – a vigilante mentality – the inner bully unleashed by self-righteous indignation.

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  31. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    “Skank science”
    skank is a fallen woman
    Sexual confusion now all red bits?

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  32. Ashley Schaeffer (535 comments) says:

    @ Northland Wahine,
    Because his efforts were patently overzealous and dangerous. There’s tackling and then there’s THAT tackle. It’s the security guard’s job to remove idiots from the field, but I’m sure he hasn’t been given licence to assault people. Just as the coppers are allowed to arrest offenders but aren’t allowed to assault offenders while arresting them. It’s not like the streaker was trying to fight anyone.

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  33. cha (4,134 comments) says:

    Ponderous, fuckin’ ponderous. RIP Casey.

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  34. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Vs the victim mentality where you’re not responsible for your actions…

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  35. jcuknz (689 comments) says:

    Floyd 8.31 .. Pity they didn’t just let him keep running to die of hyperthermia with the open wind tunnel the Stadium is I believe. Sensible me … I was at home with a fire :)

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  36. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    He tackled him, what was he suppose to do? Pat his arse and play tag? Sheesh

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  37. Nostalgia-NZ (5,318 comments) says:

    The rednecks are all go, that blind hit on the streaker was not ‘reasonable force.’ It could, or may, have caused a severe neck injury or worse. The same people who decry ‘king hits’ appear to be the ones crowing over this despite advocating for tougher laws for ‘king hitters.’ The police wouldn’t have done it so why should a 2 bob ‘security officer’ be allowed to?

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  38. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ kowtow (7,235 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 8:22 am

    No law will ever stop those who are not rational and attacking their children in fits of uncontrollable rage.

    The irrational mind does not stop and consider what the law says. But the anti-smacking law will stop those who act with rationality, but also with cruelty. Some parents, albeit a minority, believe that burning a child with a cigarette is a good way of teaching them not to play with fire, or a controlled lash with a whip will teach them not to tell lies etc. Those are the parents the law will control, but never the person for whom violence and mood altering substances is a way of life.

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  39. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Seriously, it was the best tackle of the night.

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  40. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Ashley Schaeffer (379 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 9:05 am
    Ha ha, wow, you guys really hate the streakers huh? :-)

    sshhh – I think many of these went straight from 10 to 50 and never felt the sheer joy and terror of the streaking phase. I suspect many of them have never swum naked in the sea either. Such poor innocent babes! ;-)

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  41. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Judith @ 9.26am…

    I would love to say “you’re right”. I just don’t see the evidence to back it up. If a parent was going to burn their child with a cigarette to teach them a lesson, you can bet they would not do it in public. Why? Because they know it’s wrong. And if they were crazy to do so? I’d be assuming the child suffers more in privacy of their home.

    I see parents snacking bums and chastising little Johnny for being a snot in public because little Johnny deserved it. I see many more uncontrolled little snots running rampant in public, not because of some ineffective law, but because they don’t have control of the child, not in public or their own homes.

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  42. SGA (1,251 comments) says:

    Judith at 9:34 am

    I think many of these went straight from 10 to 50 and never felt the sheer joy and terror of the streaking phase. I suspect many of them have never swum naked in the sea either.

    Plenty of nude swimming when younger (sadly that suit looks more in need of an iron each year). Never streaked though – I have to ask, Judith – your most memorable streak? (Down Johnboy, down).

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  43. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Mass murder of Iraqi prisoners by our friends from the religion of peace? Not much of a story.

    Acting in opposition to the teachings of the Quran doesn’t make you a Muslim, dipshit.

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  44. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Northland Wahine (590 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 9:37 am

    The ‘smacking’ law doesn’t mean the action has to be done in public. If the child has a burn and tells their teacher (for example) how they got it, then the law can be used.

    Yes, I agree, there are many children that parents don’t seem to be able to control. The so called anti-smacking law does not prevent a parent from controlling their children. It is very specific that if the child is doing something dangerous – then it can be used as a prevention measure. But only if it is reasonable. The police are given the role of determining what is reasonable, and what is excessive. Despite claims that innocent parents will be dragged before the courts in huge quantities, there have been very few charges under the act, due to the clause that the police can determine what breaches the law.

    Those little shits that aren’t controlled, have little or nothing to do with anti smacking, but a whole heap to do with bad parenting. Parents who don’t set boundaries, don’t follow up with suitable punishments, and simply feel they are there to do nothing more than to service their children’s wants (note the difference between wants and needs).

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  45. SGA (1,251 comments) says:

    Streaker – my brainstem thought it was great. More considered reflection was that the security guard was a bit OTT (I’m sure if it was a female streaker he’d have been able to show much more restraint).

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  46. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ SGA (670 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 9:44 am

    Mission Bay fountain when I was 18. The police were called, stood back and watched, and shared a beer with us later when they were off duty. My best friend ended up marrying one of them. :-)

    PS I suspect Johnboy doesn’t streak at the rugby, however, he probably only wears his gumboots round the farm.

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  47. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    I suspect johnboy would not have complained at a streaking ewe :)

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  48. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    I think after the tough game between France and Oz we can go a little lighter on the AB’s.

    I have been winded by the Ab’s performance but now on reflection of the trans Tasman game I feel

    the AB’s can be vindicated …to a degree.

    On that note I have just been told by Charles Piatau’s brothers he is on the mend and will be able to finish the super 15 season.

    How he is needed in the AB’s.

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  49. SGA (1,251 comments) says:

    Judith at 9:52 am

    Mission Bay fountain when I was 18. The police were called, stood back and watched, and shared a beer with us later when they were off duty. My best friend ended up marrying one of them. :-)

    Hope you’ve got photos (not for here, but for yourself). Nice story.

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  50. Newbie (56 comments) says:

    Re the streaker at the rugby – isn’t the security staff meant to prevent people getting onto the field?

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  51. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    UglyTruth says:
    Mass murder of Iraqi prisoners by our friends from the religion of peace? Not much of a story.
    Acting in opposition to the teachings of the Quran doesn’t make you a Muslim, dipshit.

    really?
    Where does it say that killing ‘unbelievers’ is in opposition of the quran?
    If so, Mohammed himself going to have trouble getting into paradise.
    Read up on what happened, for starters, with the Banu Qurayza tribe.

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  52. SGA (1,251 comments) says:

    More fowl play against a streaker :-)
    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/259658/video-chicken-tackles-streaker

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  53. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    An now we have Golden Arches sombrely commenting on what is “reasonable force” God effing save us…

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  54. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Clown would have used a shotty to king hit the streaker Saves the excessive effort.
    loved the chicken :lol:

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  55. Yoza (1,926 comments) says:

    Komata (1,040 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 8:23 am

    : Inet/ Mana

    I only heard the last few sentences at on Red Radio at 2200 last night (15 June), but are Hone and Co. seeking some sort of alteration to the political party membership threshold (currently set at 500 verifiable / paid up individuals, as Peter Dunne well knows), and are to attempt to lower them via an ‘on-line petition’ which will be presented to Parliament in due course?

    No, the petition is about lowering the party vote threshold to the point that the coat tailing provision becomes irrelevant. Although, I can not see Labour or National supporting a bill that will allow greater democratic participation.

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  56. ShawnLH (6,592 comments) says:

    “Although, I can not see Labour or National supporting a bill that will allow greater democratic participation.”

    It wouldn’t achieve that, it would only allow anti-democratic Communist nutters like you into Parliament.

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  57. ShawnLH (6,592 comments) says:

    “It’s almost as if we expect a higher standard of behaviour from Western democracies than we do from lawless militant thugs.”

    Nah, the Left just prefers violent militant thugs to the US so long as the thugs in question spout the required politically correct anti-Western ideology.

    All this “we expect better from the US” is just a smokescreen for the usual lefty anti-Americanism.

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  58. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    It wouldn’t achieve that, it would only allow anti-democratic Communist nutters like you into Parliament.

    It would make Parliament more representative of the electorate.

    Isn’t that democratic? And opposition to it anti-democratic?

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  59. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    At present the internal politics behind closed doors of unelected party elites are the ones who thrash out policy.
    Money that flows without us being told who why or where has more effect on national and labors real policy directions than the desires of the common man at the voting booth.
    Allowing minority party s to develop would allow us to directly influence the governments resultant directions and make for more transparency in the trade offs inherent in politics. Not just two party’s and their elites pandering to the rich and sundry corrupt Chinese buying political favors.

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  60. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Where does it say that killing ‘unbelievers’ is in opposition of the quran?

    The prisoners were not killed for being unbelievers, the were killed for being part of the opposing army.

    Kowtow is full of shit, accusing them of murder on religious grounds.

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  61. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    “West Auckland does not have the resources to stop violence in an area increasingly affected by INEQUALITY, according to those working in the area.”

    So maybe stopping the INEQUALITY would fix the problem, sort of 1 minus 1 equals zero! Just a suggestion.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10159389/Once-upon-a-crime-in-the-West?cid=edm:stuff:dailyheadlines

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  62. hj (7,151 comments) says:

    UglyTruth (3,643 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 9:47 am

    Mass murder of Iraqi prisoners by our friends from the religion of peace? Not much of a story.

    Acting in opposition to the teachings of the Quran doesn’t make you a Muslim, dipshit.
    ……
    and the IRA weren’t Catholic?

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  63. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    and the IRA weren’t Catholic?

    Identifying yourself as a Catholic (or a member of any religious group) doesn’t mean that you are better then anyone else. Every religious group has its hypocrites.

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  64. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    cha @9.16 – that was way out of the ordinary.

    I used to listen to him do Weekly Top 40 all the time.
    Kasem was all class.

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  65. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth seems to pretend that the vicious schism between Shia and Sunni that has poisoned Islam for 1,400 years does not exist.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-vicious-schism-between-sunni-and-shia-has-been-poisoning-islam-for-1400-years–and-its-getting-worse-9139525.html

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  66. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Are you taking up lying as a new hobby, idiot boy?

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  67. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Surprise, surprise.

    As the investigation into the IRS targetting conservative groups continues, the IRS is saying that two years of emails from Lois Lerner have gone “missing” because of a hard drive crash. Lerner was Director of the IRS Exempt Organizations division who brought the scandal to attention and who plead the 5th when asked to testify.

    This is the equivalent of the so-called “missing audio” in the Watergate trials against Nixon.

    According to the House Ways and Means Committee, the IRS has “lost” two years of emails belonging to former head of tax exempt organizations Lois Lerner. The IRS doesn’t have a record of her emails to outside groups or government agencies from January 2009 through April 2011, conveniently encompassing some of the same time when tea party groups were being targeted for extra scrutiny and possible criminal prosecution. The IRS says the loss of emails is due to a “computer crash” and claims emails from or to Lerner from the White House, Democratic members of Congress, the Treasury Department, FEC and Department of Justice cannot be located. They do however have emails belonging to Lerner that she sent to other IRS employees.

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2014/06/13/convenient-irs-has-lost-two-years-of-lois-lerners-emails-n1851371

    Oh, how convenient.

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  68. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    UT, no and note I said “seems” and thanks for the clarification. You then agree that the schism that began shortly after the prophet’s death still continues to be a poisoning influence with Islam especially in the Middle East.?
    Great.!
    I just thought you’d be interested to know that Israel allied itself with Iran against their turf war with iraq in the 1980s. Looks as though they’re going to do so again with the ISIS insurgents.
    Thoughts.?

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  69. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    stephie, the withdrawal still sparked it. ISIS was all done as of 2007. A spent force.
    As one commentator puts it, Obama didn’t end the Iraq war. He restarted it.

    He follows with a very good analysis of the conflicts in the region, and the role the U.S could have played in stopping more.

    President Barack Obama came to office promising to “bring a responsible end to the war in Iraq.” That should have been easy enough to do, considering the war was already over. Alas, he seems to have had in mind something quite different than “ending a war.” Perhaps because of his general bias against exertions of American power, Obama seems to have convinced himself that our continuing military presence in post-war Iraq was the same as continuing the war.

    This novel conception of when wars end suggests Obama may yet pull our forces out of Europe and the Far East in order to “end” World War II. It also helps to explain how he came to equate “responsibly ending the war in Iraq” with throwing away everything we had gained from it. Obama made it plain from the start that he saw no reason to keep investing in a mistake. He let our military presence in Iraq lapse, and left the Iraqi government to fend for itself when it was still far too fragile. There is a reason we stayed in Germany and Japan and South Korea for decades after the fighting stopped: We didn’t want our sacrifices to be for nothing, and we didn’t want to have to fight again.

    Now the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, or ISIS — the very al-Qaeda forces we defeated in Iraq in 2007 — have come back and taken over huge swaths of the country, including most of the Sunni heartland to the west and north of Baghdad. Meanwhile, over in next-door Syria, Obama stood by while the rebels fighting Bashar Assad came under the dominance of extreme Islamist forces, and then sold them all out with the chemical-weapons deal in September 2013. Consequently, we have thrown the Iraqi government into a de facto alliance with the murderous Baathist regime in Syria — a feat that not even common enemies and a common ideology could achieve during Saddam’s rule — and now both governments find themselves increasingly dependent on Iran.

    With Iran’s power and prestige thus enhanced, and rapidly filling the vacuum left behind by the U.S., the mullahs now see the possibility at long last of extending the Islamic Revolution across the Fertile Crescent. With our impending agreement to let Iran keep its nuclear-weapons programs, we can now settle comfortably into the role of a de facto subordinate ally of Iran, whose forces we may soon be helping with air strikes in Iraq. If you’re wondering where that leaves our actual allies among the Gulf kingdoms and Israel, they are wondering the same thing.

    Foreign-policy mistakes are inevitable, and should generally be expected, if not always forgiven. But in its approach to Iraq and the Middle East as a whole, the Obama administration has been criminally negligent. It could be years and maybe decades before we see a situation as good as the one Obama found when he got to office — and things are almost certainly going to get far worse before they get better.

    By the time he got to the White House in early 2009, Obama should have realized that the war in Iraq was already over, and that we had won. Exactly two years earlier, the Iraqi security forces were reaching critical mass, simultaneous with the start of America’s own surge, and the Sunni tribes of Anbar province were all coming over to the U.S. side. By the summer of 2007, when I was embedded in Iraq, U.S. and Iraqi forces had utterly defeated al-Qaeda’s Iraqi offshoot, ISIS, in a series of massive joint operations. The following year, the Shiite prime minister Nouri al-Maliki personally orchestrated the offensive that crushed the Iranian-backed militias collected in and around Basra in southern Iraq.

    U.S. casualties in Iraq were close to levels commensurate with peacetime training activities back home, and a tenuous but real peace reigned over the whole country. Obama inherited from the Bush administration the framework agreement for a long-term alliance with Iraq, as well as a status-of-forces agreement that set December 2011 as a tentative withdrawal date for all U.S. forces. Iraqi politics were dominated by a Shiite-led coalition that overtly favored an ongoing alliance with the United States. In the press, Shiite militias accused each other of being under Iranian control.

    At that point, the U.S. was exerting an enormously beneficial and calming influence on Iraqi politics. Sunnis who felt abused by the majority Shiite government could appeal to the Americans for help, while Shiites could remonstrate to the Americans about Sunni intransigence. Both could get results — peacefully — through America’s good offices. In a country where no faction trusted any of the others, all factions could trust the Americans to be impartial, for the simple reason that we were impartial. More important, to invoke the title of Bing West’s great book, we were the strongest tribe.

    This central position allowed the various factions of Iraqi politics to embrace an alliance with the United States, instead of being forced to seek the protection of coreligionists in Saudi Arabia or Iran whose real agenda was the continuation of a Wahhabi-Iranian proxy war inside Iraq. This is something that Iraqis constantly commented on in their own press, but which Americans by and large never understood: In toppling the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, the U.S. had opened the door to a proxy war between the Wahhabi extremists of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and other Arab states and the Shiite extremists of Khomeini’s revolution in Iran. That war proved far bloodier than America’s counterinsurgency campaign. In fact, the purpose of the counterinsurgency campaign in Iraq was to defeat both sides in the proxy war, so that our newfound allies in the government of Iraq could cement their power and forge a lasting government.
    Hence, America’s continuing military presence allowed U.S. military officers and diplomats to exert enormous influence both within Iraq and in the broader Middle East. It allowed us to keep the peace among Iraqi factions while simultaneously diminishing Iranian and Wahhabi Arab influence. We had gained, at a frightful cost in lives and treasure, a priceless strategic asset, namely the possibility of Iraq as a strong military ally, hosting U.S. forces as long as we needed to keep them there, engaged against the extremists in Syria and Iran, as well as al-Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, and their sympathizers among the Arab states. And the prospect of a successful democracy (however rudimentary and corrupt) functioning at the heart of the Middle East gave enormous hope to the pro-democracy movements of the region. In order to consolidate those gains it was absolutely vital for the U.S. to make a long-term commitment and back it up with a long-term military presence.

    So what did Obama do? He did what he normally does, which is to counteract what little capacity for action the U.S. national-security establishment retains when left on autopilot. He has visited Iraq only once during his presidency, early in 2009; but even then he only visited troops, and declined to meet with any senior Iraqi officials. He has met with Prime Minister Maliki ​only twice, once in December 2011 and once in November 2013, by which time the current debacle was well in train. By all accounts, Obama barely lifted a finger to preserve a long-term U.S. presence in Iraq, even when — as Dexter Filkins recently reported in a phenomenal feature for The New Yorker — all major Iraqi factions were asking, in private if not in public, for the U.S. to stay.

    The tentative end-of-2011 withdrawal date became fixed, and all U.S. forces were gone by the beginning of 2012. What so many Iraqis feared would happen next did not take long to come. The Shiite factions that had rallied to the U.S. side ran for Iranian cover. Sunni tribal leaders who had thrown in their lot with the U.S. were left to fend for themselves in the face of impending and ever more certain assassination. The Iraqi government became more corrupt and authoritarian as Maliki cemented power within his own narrow coalition. The Kurds rested in their mountain redoubt behind their powerful peshmerga militia, as the Sunni heartland once again became fertile ground for ISIS and other Sunni extremists. The country began to descend once again into the Wahhabi-Iranian proxy war that Bush had ended on America’s terms in the final years of his presidency.

    Meanwhile, on Syria, Americans quickly agreed, on a broad bipartisan basis, to make the worst of a bad situation. As soon as the rebellion began, there were those, including here at NR, who took the attitude that there were no moderate Sunni rebels in the Syrian resistance, and that we should just let our enemies in Syria (namely everyone) pulverize each other in the hopes they would all lose. In fact, the resistance included plenty of people willing to align themselves with the U.S., namely the very same tribes that had aligned themselves with the U.S. in Iraq.

    The civil war in Syria would inevitably threaten the stability of Iraq, and potentially turn into a cataclysmic regional conflict. Hence, opponents of intervention in Syria should have realized that the only alternative to intervening in Syria was to send U.S. forces back into Iraq, in order to seal off the Iraq–Syria border and buttress the Iraqi security forces.

    But instead of coopting the Syrian resistance, or — the next best thing — sealing the border between Syria and Iraq, we did nothing. By the start of 2013 we had abandoned both the Sunni resistance in Syria and the Sunni heartland in Iraq to Islamist networks, particularly ISIS. The Syrian civil war’s slide across the border into Iraq rapidly became a reality. Violence increased throughout the year until Maliki came begging for American help in November 2013. But Obama hadn’t done anything to stop the region from sliding back into chaos and there was no point in starting now. Maliki left empty-handed, with little choice but to throw himself at the mercy of the Iranians — and hope for survival in a revival of the Wahhabi-Iranian proxy war.
    When Obama got to power, a tenuous peace held in the Middle East, and the U.S. stood at the height of its influence and prestige in the region. Of course, the Middle East is a devilishly tricky place; upheaval is always around the corner; and the U.S. can’t single-handedly control any region. But it should be obvious to anyone who takes an honest look at the events of the last five years that the Obama administration’s whole approach to foreign policy was bound to make the Middle East a much more dangerous place.

    Obama’s skepticism of American power apparently blinded him to how vital that power was to the maintenance of peace and stability. Perhaps this discomfort with American power meant the gains of the Iraq war were a burden to him. If so, he couldn’t do anything to reverse the 4,500 lives we lost and $1 trillion we spent to liberate Iraq. But maybe he could make people stop saying the sacrifice had been worth it.

    If that was his purpose, then there is at least one area in which his foreign policy is succeeding. As for the rest, behold the Middle East in flames.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/380344/obamas-criminal-negligence-iraq-mario-loyola/page/0/1

    Sorry for the HUGE cut’n’paste, but I couldn’t decide what to leave out. The whole thing is a very good explanation of how things stand now and why.

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  70. cha (4,134 comments) says:

    Perhaps they’ll turn up Fletch – one day.

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  71. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Tony Blair writes a 3000 word column today on Iraq. He explains that this would still not be a region of peace if, as some have suggested, the invasion of 2003 had not gone ahead. (I promise not to post the whole thing)

    The second argument is that but for the invasion of 2003, Iraq would be a stable country today. Leave aside the treatment Saddam meted out to the majority of his people whether Kurds, Shia or marsh Arabs, whose position of ‘stability’ was that of appalling oppression. Consider the post 2011 Arab uprisings. Put into the equation the counterfactual – that Saddam and his two sons would be running Iraq in 2011 when the uprisings began. Is it seriously being said that the revolution sweeping the Arab world would have hit Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, to say nothing of the smaller upheavals all over the region, but miraculously Iraq, under the most brutal and tyrannical of all the regimes, would have been an oasis of calm?

    Easily the most likely scenario is that Iraq would have been engulfed by precisely the same convulsion. Take the hypothesis further. The most likely response of Saddam would have been to fight to stay in power. Here we would have a Sunni leader trying to retain power in the face of a Shia revolt. Imagine the consequences. Next door in Syria a Shia backed minority would be clinging to power trying to stop a Sunni majority insurgency. In Iraq the opposite would be the case. The risk would have been of a full blown sectarian war across the region, with States not fighting by proxy, but with national armies.

    So it is a bizarre reading of the cauldron that is the Middle East today, to claim that but for the removal of Saddam, we would not have a crisis.

    Indeed we now have three examples of Western policy towards regime change in the region. In Iraq, we called for the regime to change, removed it and put in troops to try to rebuild the country. But intervention proved very tough and today the country is at risk again. In Libya, we called for the regime to change, we removed it by airpower, but refused to put in troops and now Libya is racked by instability, violence and has exported vast amounts of trouble and weapons across North Africa and down into sub- Saharan Africa. In Syria we called for the regime to change, took no action and it is in the worst state of all.

    And when we do act, it is often difficult to discern the governing principles of action. Gaddafi, who in 2003 had given up his WMD and cooperated with us in the fight against terrorism, is removed by us on the basis he threatens to kill his people but Assad, who actually kills his people on a vast scale including with chemical weapons, is left in power.

    Ok, so if it is that hard, why not stay out of it all, the current default position of the West? The answer is because the outcome of this long transition impacts us profoundly. At its simplest, the jihadist groups are never going to leave us alone. 9/11 happened for a reason. That reason and the ideology behind it have not disappeared.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tony-blair-iraq-essay-full-text-we-have-to-liberate-ourselves-from-the-notion-that-we-caused-this-crisis-we-havent-9537514.html

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  72. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    hj

    IRA murder was never done in the name of religion or Catholicism. It was done in the name of the “Republic” .Catholic hierarchy condemned it.We’ve been here before,what’s the point.?

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  73. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    This is pretty good place to bin about the so called IRS scandal ..

    “….Good thing, too, because the IRS scandal is nearly as tough to follow as Benghazi. If you had to sum up the original outrage, it was something like: The politicized Obama administration targeted Tea Party groups and denied them tax exemption in an onerous process. One year later, that narrative has not hung together, so the story has evolved. Now, Democrats—including Obama—complained to the IRS that large organizations like Americans for Prosperity were using the penumbra of campaign finance law to flood the airwaves with ads. Also, IRS agents were aware of this, and acted accordingly. Presto: a war on conservatives……”

    The point about Benghazi is interesting . There are similarities to the alleged IRS scandal including the way the far right ,the Tea Party and Fox news have tried to distort and manipulate the facts ,

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2014/05/15/please_take_pity_on_the_pac_man.html

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  74. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, Obama has freed yet more detainees out of an Afghanistan prison without telling anyone.

    (Reuters) – The Obama administration has quietly repatriated a dozen detainees from a small U.S. military prison in Afghanistan, moving a modest step closer toward winding down the United States’ controversial post-9/11 detainee system.

    President Barack Obama, in a letter to Congress released on Thursday, informed U.S. lawmakers that about 38 non-Afghan prisoners remained at the Parwan detention center outside of Kabul, down from around 50 a few months ago.

    A U.S. defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that a Frenchman, a Kuwaiti and 10 Pakistani prisoners were sent back to their respective home countries at the end of May.

    The remaining detainees include Yemeni, Tunisian and more Pakistani nationals, and a Russian who the United States is also considering trying in a military or civilian court.

    The transfers, which are not publicly disclosed, underscore the challenges the Obama administration faces in shutting down Parwan and the larger U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, which has been widely criticized by human rights groups since being populated in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/12/us-usa-afghanistan-detainees-idUSKBN0EN2D820140612

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  75. cha (4,134 comments) says:

    stephie, the withdrawal still sparked it. ISIS was all done as of 2007.

    Of course Fletch, of course…

    http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2008/12/20081204-6.html

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  76. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    stephie, only it IS a scandal. a provable scandal. The Obama administration has weaponized the IRS to use against groups it doesn’t like. In fact, new information shows Lerner funnelled info directly to Elijah Cummings, a ranking Democrat who lead True The Vote.

    http://oversight.house.gov/release/new-irs-e-mails-lois-lerner-funneled-elijah-cummings-info-targeted-conservative-group/

    The whole thing is rotten.

    One on the conservative targets of the IRS gives testimony about harassment by the IRS. The story is the same all over –

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  77. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    Fletch, again your conservative brothers and sisters typically distort the issues in Iraq that suggests another invasion and occupation 2003 as cure all .
    “At its simplest, the jihadist groups are never going to leave us alone. 9/11 happened for a reason. That reason and the ideology behind it have not disappeared.”

    Forgetting that at the heart of the ISIS insurgency is the deep , bitter and poisoning division between Shia and Sunni that began after their Prophet’s death 1,400 years ago.
    Tony Blair’s sabre rattling is not going to fix it thats for sure but I do hope next time around he at last finds his alleged WMD that so eluded GWB and him back in 2003-8.
    Note alos it was GWB that set the timetable for withdrawal in the first place .Not Obama.

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  78. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, 600 Americans were trapped in the Middle East. Obama sent no air support, but did what he does best: went to Palm Beach and played golf. Sorry, for my language, but what a ***** asshole.

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dgreenfield/obama-golfed-failed-to-provide-air-cover-for-evacuating-600-trapped-americans/

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  79. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    “…… the alleged IRS scandal including the way the far right ,the Tea Party and Fox news have tried to distort and manipulate the facts….”

    Yep, all distorted and minipulated. that’s probably why they have now ‘lost’ 2 years of emails.
    Just the 2 years congress wanted to investigate the targeting of conservative groups by the IRS.
    Darn, what a coincidence, bad luck.

    I have a bridge to sell.

    Nixon ‘lost’ 18 1/2 minutes of tape, Obama ‘loses’ 2 years of emails.

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  80. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    but I do hope next time around he at last finds his alleged WMD that so eluded GWB and him back in 2003-8.

    Syria most likely has them.

    According to the second in command of Saddam’s air force, the WMD’s were moved out of the country to Syria. That’s likely where the chemical weapons that Assad used recently came from.

    ====

    In 2006, former Iraqi general Georges Sada, second in command of the
    Iraqi Air Force who served under Saddam Hussein before he defected,
    wrote a comprehensive book, “Saddam’s Secrets.”

    It details how the Iraqi Revolutionary Guard moved weapons of mass
    destruction into Syria in advance of the U.S.-led action to eliminate
    Hussein’s WMD threat.

    As Sada told the New York Sun, two Iraqi Airways Boeings were
    converted to cargo planes by removing the seats, and special Republican
    Guard units loaded the planes with chemical weapons materials.

    There were 56 flights disguised as a relief effort after a 2002 Syrian dam collapse.

    There were also truck convoys into Syria. Sada’s comments came more
    than a month after Israel’s top general during Operation Iraqi Freedom,
    Moshe Yaalon, told the Sun that Saddam “transferred the chemical agents
    from Iraq to Syria.”

    Both Israeli and U.S. intelligence observed large truck convoys
    leaving Iraq and entering Syria in the weeks and months before Operation
    Iraqi Freedom, John Shaw, former deputy undersecretary of defense for
    international technology security, told a private conference of former
    weapons inspectors and intelligence experts held in Arlington, Va., in
    2006.

    According to Shaw, ex-Russian intelligence chief Yevgeni Primakov, a
    KGB general with long-standing ties to Saddam, went to Iraq in December
    2002 and stayed until just before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.

    ====

    http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/071912-618875-syria-chemical-weapons-came-from-iraq-.htm?p=full

    In addition to that, Bette Middler tweeted in October of last year a criticism of Bush and his lie about the WMD’s. She was answered by Waarant Officer Rick Elliot SFG, who was there – “@BetteMidler – I was there. While we waited for Congress & the U.N to vote for the invasion, many convoys went into Syria from Iraq”.

    http://weaselzippers.us/2013/11/02/us-army-warrant-officer-schools-bette-midler-that-there-were-wmds-in-iraq/

    Includes screencaps of tweets.

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  81. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    stephie

    It’s not as simple as Sunni / shia.

    Among the Sunnis there’s a spectrum of extremism. In this case there’s specifically this notion of the Caliphate. we are witnessing an extreme political Islamic ideology going on here more than your simplistic dichotomy.

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  82. cha (4,134 comments) says:

    but what a ***** asshole.

    Yeah, dumb fucker should’ve waited until they were dead and then gone fishing.
    /

    http://onlineathens.com/stories/061503/new_20030615049.shtml

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  83. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    Fletch, read my link .The claim that the Obama administration has “weopnaized the IRS against the IRS ” is a lie. The following link demonstrates that the Tea Party were treated no differently to other groups center, left or right seeking tax exemption status and enduring long waiting times . Even most Republicans agree,

    http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/07/irs-tea-party-congress-no-politics-progressive

    What it does show the on going efforts of a cabal of the far right trying to smear and discredit at every turn the actions of their first black President beginning with the discredited and deluded Birther movement .

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  84. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    It details how the Iraqi Revolutionary Guard moved weapons of mass
    destruction into Syria in advance of the U.S.-led action to eliminate
    Hussein’s WMD threat.

    http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0504

    According to Niman, “The missing pages implicated twenty-four U.S.-based corporations and the successive Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr. administration in connection with the illegal supplying of Saddam Hussein government with myriad weapons of mass destruction and the training to use them.” Groups documented in the original report that were supporting Iraq’s weapons programs prior to Iraq’s 1990 invasion of Kuwait included:
    – Eastman Kodak, Dupont, Honeywell, Rockwell, Sperry, Hewlett-Packard, and Bechtel,
    – U.S. government agencies such as the Department of Energy, Department of Agriculture and Department of Defense,
    – Nuclear weapons labs such as Lawrence-Livermore, Los Alamos and Sandia.
    Beginning in 1983, the U.S. was involved in eighty shipments of biological and chemical components, including strains of botulism toxin, anthrax, gangrene bacteria, West Nile fever virus, and Dengue fever virus. These shipments continued even after Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran in 1984. Later, in 1988 Iraq used the chemical weapons against the Kurds.
    But perhaps most importantly, the missing pages contain information that could potentially make a case for war crimes against officials within the Reagan and the Bush Sr. administrations. This includes the current Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld � for his collaboration with Saddam Hussein leading up to the massacres of Iraqi Kurds and acting as liaison for U.S. military aid during the war between Iraq and Iran.

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  85. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    Fletch, you must do much, much better than that. Specifically what WMDs were precisely found.? Chemical weapons originally supplied by the US.??

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

    and,

    http://fpif.org/the_us_and_chemical_weapons_no_leg_to_stand_on/

    kowtow are you denying the reality of Shia vs Sunni factionalism that drives the Syrian civiil war and the current insurgency In Iraq, that has also poisoned Islam for the last 1,400 year. ?,

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-vicious-schism-between-sunni-and-shia-has-been-poisoning-islam-for-1400-years–and-its-getting-worse-9

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  86. wikiriwhis business (4,189 comments) says:

    Better be alerted by this Stephieboy

    Total Tyranny Is Here – NDRP Executive Order HORROR .

    Published on Mar 19, 2012

    Please read this horrifying, tyrannical Executive Order yourself and let the following podcast video guide you through it.

    Executive Order — National Defense Resources Preparedness
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-o

    Executive Order Explained (Podcast Video)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myPEND

    One simple disaster and martial law will be enacted in the USA.

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  87. Twinkletoes (54 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth 9:47

    Qur’an 8:67.

    It is not for a prophet to have captives (of war) until he inflicts a massacre (upon Allah’s enemies) in the land. You (i.e. some muslims) desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is exalted in Might and Wise.

    Rather negates your comment about killing being against Quranic teachings.

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  88. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    stephie –

    IRS agents testified before Oversight that ACORN groups were scrutinized because the agency thought they were old organizations applying as new ones. Emerge America was scrutinized for potential “improper private benefit.” No evidence exists that the IRS requested additional information from any Occupy Wall Street group.

    “Only seven applications in the IRS backlog contained the word ‘progressive,’ all of which were then approved by the IRS, while Tea Party groups received unprecedented review and experienced years-long delays. While some liberal-oriented groups were singled out for scrutiny, evidence shows it was due to non-political reasons,” according to the Oversight staff report, which was obtained by The Daily Caller.

    “[T]he Administration and congressional Democrats have seized upon the notion that the IRS’s targeting was not just limited to conservative applicants,” the report states. “These Democratic claims are flat-out wrong and have no basis in any thorough examination of the facts. Yet, the Administration’s chief defenders continue to make these assertions in a concerted effort to deflect and distract from the truth about the IRS’s targeting of tax-exempt applicants.”

    “[T]here is simply no evidence that any liberal or progressive group received enhanced scrutiny because its application reflected the organization’s political views,” the report stated.

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/07/committee-staff-report-no-progressive-groups-were-targeted-by-irs/#ixzz34l3CFrcL

    As the Wall Street Journal reports:

    “We now know that the IRS targeted not only right-leaning applicants, but also right-leaning groups that were already operating as 501(c)(4)s,” Mr. Camp said in a statement. “At Washington, DC’s direction, dozens of groups operating as 501(c)(4)s were flagged for IRS surveillance, including monitoring of the groups’ activities, websites and any other publicly available information. Of these groups, 83% were right-leaning. And of the groups the IRS selected for audit, 100% were right-leaning.”

    http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/02/11/camp-irs-targeted-conservative-groups-for-audits/

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  89. Yoza (1,926 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (2,565 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 10:36 am

    [Ryan Sproull]“It’s almost as if we expect a higher standard of behaviour from Western democracies than we do from lawless militant thugs.”

    Nah, the Left just prefers violent militant thugs to the US so long as the thugs in question spout the required politically correct anti-Western ideology.

    I’m not sure exactly what you mean by ‘Western ideology’ or why the ‘left’ would oppose it as most of the rights and privileges we tend to take for granted were the consequences of decades/centuries of struggle by dissenting anti-establishment activists tending to be left leaning. I think the problem here is the word ‘thug’ had become synonymous in the minds of some with those who oppose US foreign policy.

    All this “we expect better from the US” is just a smokescreen for the usual lefty anti-Americanism

    The chauvinism underpinning that statement is quite interesting. To be truly ‘anti-American’ you must be anti-Mexican, anti-Venezuelan, anti-Cuban, anti-Canadian as well as anti-US. All US citizens are Americans, but not all Americans are US citizens. The convention allowing the unquestioning acceptance of the term ‘American’ to specifically designate those who are citizens only of the US is quite offensive to everyone else who are American. It would be kind of like only using the term European to indicate a citizen of Germany, and only Germany.
    On top of that it is generally regarded as a worn out cliché to disparage those who question the right of the US to distribute deadly ‘justice’ where ever it sees fit.

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  90. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    stephie

    As I already said.

    It is not as simple as Sunni / Shia.

    Syria for example is Sunni against everyone else. Allawite,Christian,and Shia. Not to mention there will be baathist secular socialists in the Syrian regime who certain rebels will hate.

    This has attracted even more extreme fighters to the sunni cause. And we know that the extremists of ISIL are too extreme for some of the other sunni extremists fighting there.

    Not a simplistic picture which you are so eager to paint.

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  91. ross411 (902 comments) says:

    Floyd60 (73 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 8:31 am
    The Press reports http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/10160784/Tackle-on-streaker-challenged

    “Forsyth Barr Stadium officials are reviewing a ”king hit” tackle made by a security guard – linked to Canterbury rugby – on a streaker during the All Blacks test against England in Dunedin.

    The guard, who made the flying tackle from behind, violently snapping the streaker’s head back, is understood to be in Canterbury rugby’s ITM Cup wider training squad.”

    King hit from behind – an insight in to the vigilante justice mentality. Name the security guard.

    In this day and age, I’m surprised there’s still a profession where you can violently assault someone in a state of dress llike this. Didn’t we learn anything from the Darren Hughes affair?

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  92. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    The massacre of prisoners is part and parcel of Islam, often referred to ironically as the religion of peace!

    Few seem to realise that Mohammed himself justified the murder of male Jewish prisoners of war and the sale of women and children into slavery,including sex slavery.

    These Koranic episodes are also at the heart of historical and current Islamic hatred of Jews.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza

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  93. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    UglyTruth says:

    “The prisoners were not killed for being unbelievers, the were killed for being part of the opposing army.”

    They were killed because they were Shias (That makes them unbelievers in the eyes of Sunnis), they wouldn’t be in the ‘opposing army’ if they weren’t.

    The hatred between Sunnis and Shias lies at its heart. Sunnis are disgusted by cultic practices or religious art from Shias that distract from the teachings of Mohammed.
    Shias also embrace a messianic cult of martyrdom and ritual self-mortification – and claim a line of descent from the Prophet that Sunnis regard as heresy.

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  94. ross411 (902 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine (593 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 9:05 am
    Ashley, the fun for the streaker is the attention and avoiding security. Well, that didn’t pan out for him. I don’t see why the security guy should be labelled being a thug for his efforts.

    Where does it end though Wahine? Should overuse of potentially dangerous force be okay, if you say so? Or should the security guard behave professionally and safely?

    Should the police be allowed to use excessive force in crimes, if you say it’s okay, as well? What if you find the force unacceptable, but your neighbours thing it’s okay?

    We live in a society where we respect each other. If that streaker had run a minute longer and been grabbed by his arm, what would the harm have been? If there is a punishment for streaking, he would have got it anyway, regardless of how fast and hard he was taken down.

    It’s strange there’s such an anti-streaker sentiment here. Perhaps seeing some dude’s junk raises uncomfortable questions, that some would prefer not to have enter their mind? ;-P

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  95. ross411 (902 comments) says:

    Judith (6,590 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 9:26 am
    No law will ever stop those who are not rational and attacking their children in fits of uncontrollable rage.

    The irrational mind does not stop and consider what the law says. But the anti-smacking law will stop those who act with rationality, but also with cruelty. Some parents, albeit a minority, believe that burning a child with a cigarette is a good way of teaching them not to play with fire, or a controlled lash with a whip will teach them not to tell lies etc. Those are the parents the law will control, but never the person for whom violence and mood altering substances is a way of life.

    Are you serious? More dud logic, no surprise it’s from you Judith.

    Smacking is one thing, but attacks, cigarettes, whips and so forth are a different league. That there are people like yourself that mix them all together just to be able to make some kind of argument that other people shouldn’t be able to smack, is unfortunate for the rest of us that have to live with the results of your “ends justify the means” approach to getting your way.

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  96. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    kowtow , my account is not simplistic but more stating the reality of Shia vs Sunni factionalism in all its variants ,including Assad’s Shia based Alawaite faction and Socialist Bat’athist ,which am fully aware of . It in fact is not as convoluted as you appear to be trying to make out.
    it is not unreasonable nor simplistic to view the Syrian or Iraqi conflict in that light. I think the Shia militias supplied by Iran and Lebanon and fighting with Assad are very clear about the issues and who their enemies really are .

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  97. ross411 (902 comments) says:

    Fletch (5,881 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 11:54 am
    Meanwhile, 600 Americans were trapped in the Middle East. Obama sent no air support, but did what he does best: went to Palm Beach and played golf. Sorry, for my language, but what a ***** asshole.

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dgreenfield/obama-golfed-failed-to-provide-air-cover-for-evacuating-600-trapped-americans/

    That you repeat this nonsense, reflects badly on you, and makes you look like a weak opportunist Fletch.

    Obama has aged visibly over the years he has been president. Originally a black haired healthy looking professional, now grey and haggard looking man. It’s obvious to even but the disgruntled arseholes like yourself, that his job is hard on him. A token figurehead doesn’t age that hard.

    What is he supposed to do about every newsworthy event? Sit there and bear witness? The US government employs thousands and thousands of people, many of whom are better qualified than Obama, and some of whom are of course authorised to make calls on things like this.

    Should he be working 24/7 on every newsworthy subject of a political nature? No, and it’s not possible. I bet he works harder and longer than you, you disgruntled pedant.

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  98. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Qur’an 8:67.

    It is not for a prophet to have captives (of war) until he inflicts a massacre (upon Allah’s enemies) in the land. You (i.e. some muslims) desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is exalted in Might and Wise.

    Rather negates your comment about killing being against Quranic teachings.

    The word used in the original context was murder, not killing.

    Just look at the retarded arguments that these prats try to make.

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  99. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    ross411

    The lame stream media used to hammer G Bush relentlessly for golfing.

    Obummer is given a free pass by the media party as Ezra Levant calls them. Hypocrites.

    Bush was always pilloried for being a patrician so being that we can expect him to play rich mens’ games, Obummer pretends to be the common guy so he should stick to backyard basketball.

    Gray and haggard ? Well that’s what you get married to Michele.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/did-michelle-obama-make-president-obama-switch-seats-because-denmark-pm-helle-thorning-schmidt-photo

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  100. ShawnLH (6,592 comments) says:

    Comrade Yowza

    “The chauvinism underpinning that statement is quite interesting.”

    Not really.

    “o be truly ‘anti-American’ you must be anti-Mexican, anti-Venezuelan, anti-Cuban, anti-Canadian as well as anti-US. All US citizens are Americans, but not all Americans are US citizens.”

    Most sane normal people know that using “America” is standard shorthand for the US. It may be a sin against Lefty political correctness, but nothing more.

    “The convention allowing the unquestioning acceptance of the term ‘American’ to specifically designate those who are citizens only of the US is quite offensive to everyone else who are American.”

    No it’s not. It’s offensive only to politically correct leftists.

    “On top of that it is generally regarded”

    Only by the Left, and what the left thinks is not relevant to me.

    “as a worn out cliché to disparage those who question the right of the US to distribute deadly ‘justice’ where ever it sees fit.”

    Those lefties who “question the right” of US citizens to defend themselves only do so because they hate the US and love third world terrorists or dictators, nothing more than that, and nothing to do with justice.

    This is just the Left’s support for Stalin and Mao and the Badder Meinhoff gang translated into the 21st century.

    It’s boring and morally bankrupt.

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  101. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    They were killed because they were Shias

    Don’t be stupid, if that was the reason then they would have killed all Shias, not just those fighting them.

    (That makes them unbelievers in the eyes of Sunnis)

    More stupidity. The difference between Sunnis & Shias is about political power, and has nothing to do with religious belief or the reasons for fighting as described in the Quran.

    Sunnis are disgusted by cultic practices or religious art from Shias that distract from the teachings of Mohammed.

    So what? Cultic practices are prohibited for all Muslims, the issue has nothing to do with Sunni/Shia differences.

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  102. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    Having turned Somalia into a failed state they’re doing their best to destroy Kenya.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/10901970/Islamists-attack-hotels-along-Kenya-coast.html

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  103. cricko (452 comments) says:

    And if you don’t know how many kneelings there are at morning prayers you will find yourself in even
    more shit than the poor sod who didn’t know how many there are at evening prayers.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2658182/Unmasked-The-public-face-ISIS-terror-army-threatening-destroy-Iraq.html

    No way could you describe these mongrels as civilised.
    (Anyone aware of the ratio of sunni to shia we have in NZ ?)

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  104. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    UglyTruth

    Can you reply to posts without being abusive?

    “Don’t be stupid, if that was the reason then they would have killed all Shias, not just those fighting them.”

    They are.
    Sunni militia are carrying out summary executions on civilians, soldiers and police officers after taking control of large swathes of Iraq

    “More stupidity. The difference between Sunnis & Shias is about political power, and has nothing to do with religious belief or the reasons for fighting as described in the Quran.”

    Nothing to do with religious belief?
    Read up about Shia and Sunni, they have been fighting for more than 1300 years starting with the battle of Siffin in 657 BC.

    “So what? Cultic practices are prohibited for all Muslims, the issue has nothing to do with Sunni/Shia differences.”

    Yes it has.
    Sunnis see the Shia religion as a cult and un-Islamic.
    There are even several sites that deal with this https://islamistruth.wordpress.com/category/exposing-shia-cult/
    http://shiacult.wordpress.com/

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  105. cha (4,134 comments) says:

    Oh noes!.

    https://twitter.com/hashtag/endfathersday

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  106. Ed Snack (1,937 comments) says:

    Stephieboy, that’s a bit laughable, quoting, for god’s sake, Mother Jones in support of Obama, why not quote Jay Carney ?

    Fact no “liberal” group was denied tax exempt status, and all were processed within weeks. A significant number of tea party and related groups were and some still are, denied tax exempt status. And to further show that Motherjones is full of shit, Louis Lerner has publicly admitted that conservative groups were targeted, and that was also the conclusion fo an Inspector General’s report. You’re behind on your talking points, you need to get with it, those ones have already been proven false.

    Just think, Lerner is (actually, was) employed by a huge bureaucracy which has a statutory duty to retain all of its communications. They have an enormous corporate email system that must be (by law) backed up and copies kept for some time. And they are trying to claim that a hard disk crash lost 2 years of Lerner’s emails, this months after stonewalling their release. So they lost Lerner’s emails, no back ups survive, my, someone HAS been remiss, what a shame we shall have to punish them severely like forcing to to resign just before they retire but with full pension rights and a gratuity. In the meantime, if you silly republicans want to read lerner’s emails to see here conversing with democratic lawmakers and the whitehouse, sorry, but you can’t. We can’t even BEGIN to say how amused gosh darned sorry we are.

    Just a further note, under Sarbanes Oxley, the perpetrator of this little game is liable for up to 20 years imprisonment. The Justice department is, as we speak, hot on the case (snork).

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  107. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis business (3,640 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 12:32 pm
    Better be alerted by this Stephieboy

    Total Tyranny Is Here – NDRP Executive Order HORROR .
    .etc. etc

    Did this happen with e.g that one” simple disaster ” Super storm Hurricane Sandy.???

    http://www.livescience.com/24380-hurricane-sandy-status-data.html

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  108. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Seriously, it was the best tackle of the night.

    I’m guessing you’re referring to the security guard’s tackle, not the streaker’s NW. It was a cold night in Dunedin after all. ;)

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  109. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    Ed Snack, I stand by the fact that there is no evidence that the IRS is actively pursuing the Tea Party to the exclusion of of other political groups left , right or center.
    Mother Jone is no less reputable or disreputable than say Fox or WND that you appear to lean on.

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  110. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    PS can Ed Snack explain to me how and why the Tea Party can claim to be a social welfare or benevolent society.?
    Time magazine presents a sober and balanced analysis of the alleged scandal,

    http://swampland.time.com/2013/05/14/the-real-irs-scandal/

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  111. Manolo (14,165 comments) says:

    Stephie, how low would you go for your hero Obama?
    I know he walks on water for you, but how low are you prepared to stoop for him?

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  112. stephieboy (3,513 comments) says:

    Manolo, and how far are you prepared to stoop to crazies like these,.?

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43096_Joseph_Farah_and_Alex_Jones_Debate_Obamas_Plans_for_Tyranny

    and,

    http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/stupidquotes/a/glenn-beck-quotes.htm

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  113. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Can you reply to posts without being abusive?

    Yes, the problem is that on this blog there is high a level of anti-Muslim prejudice from fucktards like Manolo and Kowtow, and judging from the number of likes they get they are just the tip of the iceberg.

    Sunni militia are carrying out summary executions on civilians, soldiers and police officers after taking control of large swathes of Iraq

    They/re not doing it because they’re Sunnis. Idiot boy has been banging away about Sunni/Shia differences as if they were the the sole reason for the conflict, but there is way more to it than that. While inter-Muslim sectarian differences are significant, the US and their supporters have much to answer for. The roots of the current conflict owe much to the radicalization of the Mujahideen from before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the formative years of al-Qaeda. There is blood on NZ’s hands from it’s military and political support of the US as well.

    Sunnis see the Shia religion as a cult and un-Islamic.

    Technically both are cults, elevating the status of Mohammad from prophet and messenger to that of a de-facto cult leader by a selective political interpretation of his sayings.

    The bloodshed in Iraq is a general symptom of manipulation of religion for political purposes, it is a perversion of the values which exist are the core of the religion itself.

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  114. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Obama has aged visibly over the years he has been president. Originally a black haired healthy looking professional, now grey and haggard looking man. It’s obvious to even but the disgruntled arseholes like yourself, that his job is hard on him. A token figurehead doesn’t age that hard.

    What is he supposed to do about every newsworthy event? Sit there and bear witness? The US government employs thousands and thousands of people, many of whom are better qualified than Obama, and some of whom are of course authorised to make calls on things like this.

    Should he be working 24/7 on every newsworthy subject of a political nature? No, and it’s not possible. I bet he works harder and longer than you, you disgruntled pedant.

    Ross, FFS, it has nothing to do with anything being “newsworthy” or of a “political nature”. These are important international events that concern not only America, but Western society. So, in your eyes, this warring in Iraq is not important? Really?
    Or the safety of American citizens abroad?

    I notice that only climate change was important enough to capture Obama’s attention. He gave a talk on it before jetting off to play golf in Palm Springs. To his mind, climate change seems a bigger threat than Islamic Jihadists tearing up a country that the U.S only recently liberated. What a waste – what a total waste of lives and effort.

    So, the poor boy is looking a bit grey ey? Well if it’s too hard then maybe he should step down from the job and give someone more qualified a chance at playing golf running the country. They couldn’t do any worse.

    Obama is most likely the worst president the US has ever had. He has out-Nixoned Nixon and out-Cartered Carter.

    I don’t expect him to react to every “newsworthy” event, but I expect him to do his damn job. What was it again? Commander-in-chief?

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  115. kowtow (8,934 comments) says:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2658589/OED-launches-100-words-commemorate-centenary-First-World-War-including-demob-cushy-tooter-sweeter.html

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  116. mikenmild (12,321 comments) says:

    Um, Fletch climate change is a way bigger deal that a war in Iraq.

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  117. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Ross @ 12.57pm…

    Excessive force… It was a hard hitting tackle. They happen on rugby fields all over NZ every Saturday. He looked like a grown man use to physical activity. He was on a rugby field. That’s the irony that seems to be wasted on some.

    Hey, if the guy wants to streak, that’s his call. I’m sure he was aware of the possible consequences. He had his fun. As did the crowd when he was T A C K L E D. But vilifying the security guard is uncalled for in my opinion.

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  118. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    ps, fwiw, Bush gave up playing golf because he said it sent the wrong signal –

    President George W. Bush, who routinely allowed journalists to accompany him on golf outings early in his presidency, told Politico in May 2008 that he decided to give up the game in August 2003 after a bomb attack on the United Nations headquarters in Baghdad that killed a top U.N. official.

    “I don’t want some mom whose son may have recently died to see the commander-in-chief playing golf,” Bush said. “I feel I owe it to the families to be in solidarity as best as I can with them.”

    “And I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong message,” Bush said.

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  119. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    And Scott Chris, I thought that’s how most white boys tackle hung ;)

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  120. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Um, Fletch climate change is a way bigger deal that a war in Iraq.

    NO, it isn’t.

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  121. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/nz-has-dysfunctional-court-system-glenn-inquiry-6003550

    NZ has ‘dysfunctional’ court system – Glenn Inquiry released.

    Not a pretty picture, and certainly no real improvement over the last decade.

    the full report can be found here –

    https://glenninquiry.org.nz/uploads/files/The_Peoples_Report_-_full_document.pdf

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  122. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    When he out Bushes a Bush we might have something to worry about.

    The result in Iraq was predictable well before the USA even invaded.

    Those of us who can think recognize the trillions of dollars wasted by bush and his pointless invasion of both Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Occupation of both countries in perpetuate at huge ongoing cost or abandon them to the squalled results of a conservative religion and primitive stupidity.

    Easy choice.

    Leave the region to rot in its festering mess of ignorant superstition.

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  123. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    This is bullshit trying to unfairly load the ballot result I will be adding a comment against such blatant attempts at gaining idiots votes.

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/colin-craig-donates-100k-own-party-reveals-logo-ck-157777
    Conservatives propose “Vote” logo
    Today also the Electoral Commission reveal proposed logos by Internet Mana and the Conservative Party.

    The former is straightforward; the latter — simply “Vote” in white against a blue background — had the social media mob scratching their heads. Some wondered if slower-witted voters could take it as an instruction and tick the box beside the Conservative Party.
    ——
    http://www.elections.org.nz/news-media/application-register-conservative-party-logo
    Application to register Conservative Party logo
    14 June 2014 News items

    The Electoral Commission is considering an application made under Part 4 of the Electoral Act 1993 to register this substitute logo for:

    Party: Conservative Party of New Zealand

    Applicant: Nathaniel Heslop, Party Secretary, Conservative Party of New Zealand

    Registration of a logo under Part 4 of the Electoral Act 1993 is needed for the logo to appear on a ballot paper. Registration may be refused if the logo is indecent, offensive, misleading, confusing, refers to a title or an honour, infringes an intellectual property right or breaches any law, or an application is made incorrectly.

    Anyone who wishes to comment may do so in writing to the Electoral Commission by:

    post to PO Box 3220, Wellington 6140,

    fax to 04 495 0031,

    email to enquiries@elections.govt.nz

    The deadline for comments is 5pm, Monday, 30 June 2014

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  124. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    David Garrett (5,794 comments) says:

    June 16th, 2014 at 10:13 am

    Concur completely, although it did take me 2 seconds. Saves me the bother.

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  125. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine (596 comments) says:
    June 16th, 2014 at 3:31 pm
    And Scott Chris, I thought that’s how most white boys tackle hung

    Truth be known NW, most of us white boys are hung like horses but on a cold night they can turn into frightened turtles! :)

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  126. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    Into David Cunliffes?

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  127. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    Scotty, not every girl wants a my little pony! ;)

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  128. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    That’s where we rural men are on a winner Northland Wahine.

    None of this micro penis metrosexual nonsense of the city dwellers. :)

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  129. Northland Wahine (673 comments) says:

    I wish I knew has to copy and paste a link, nasska. Saw a pic of the latest male swimwear. I swear it looked like a kids sock,
    stretched towards a hip to keep it…ahem…upright. Why the models would want to advertise their near non existent “tackle” is beyond me!

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  130. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine

    Ref: http://www.wikihow.com/Copy-and-Paste-a-Link

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  131. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    The thing about the Iraq invasion is that it was believed by many, many people that Saddam had WMDs. It wasn’t just Bush, and it wasn’t just the Americans.

    Never mind that, in building the case for war in Iraq, President George W. Bush relied on the unanimous opinion of all 16 U.S. intelligence agencies.

    Never mind that the bipartisan Robb-Silberman commission examined the intelligence on which Bush relied, and unanimously found that “the Intelligence Community did not make or change any analytic judgments in response to political pressure. … We conclude that it was the paucity of intelligence and poor analytical tradecraft, rather than political pressure, that produced the inaccurate pre-war intelligence assessments.”

    Never mind that Bush retained the same CIA director, George Tenet, who served under Bill Clinton. Tenet gave Bush the same intelligence assessment: that Saddam Hussein, the dictator of Iraq, possessed WMD is a “slam dunk.” Indeed, according to The Washington Post’s Bob Woodward, Bush was initially skeptical of the intelligence that reached that conclusion. When, on December 21, 2002, Tenet laid out the intelligence purportedly showing the existence of WMD stockpiles, Bush said, “This is the best we’ve got?”

    Never mind that former secretary of State Hillary Clinton, then a New York senator, was particularly adamant about the threat posed by Saddam: “In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical- and biological-weapons stock, his missile-delivery capability and his nuclear program. … If left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”

    Finally, never mind about then-President Bill Clinton’s Persian Gulf expert on the National Security Council, Kenneth Pollack. While he opposed the war’s timing, Pollack said “no one doubted” Saddam’s stockpiles of WMD: “The intelligence community convinced me and the rest of the Clinton Administration that Saddam had reconstituted his WMD programs following the withdrawal of the U.N. inspectors, in 1998, and was only a matter of years away from having a nuclear weapon. … Other nations’ intelligence services were similarly aligned with U.S. views. … Germany … Israel, Russia, Britain, China and even France held positions similar to that of the United States. … In sum, no one doubted that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.”

    http://www.humanevents.com/2013/11/07/bush-iraq-war-vs-obama-obamacare-who-lied/

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  132. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Democrats who agreed that something needed to be done about Saddam –

    “One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.” President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

    “If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.” President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

    “Iraq is a long way from USA but, what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.” Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

    “He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.” Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

    “We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U. S. Constitution and Laws, to take necessary actions, (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.” Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

    “Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.” Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

    “Hussein has .. chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.” Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

    “There is no doubt that … Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue a pace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.” Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

    “We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.” Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

    “We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.” Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    “Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.” Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    “We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.” Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 “The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…” Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

    “I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force– if necessary– to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.” Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

    “There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years … We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.” Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

    “He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do” Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

    “In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.” Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

    “We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.” Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

    “Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation … And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real …” Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23.2003

    Funny how their opinions change when the war becomes unpopular.
    These days, though, it’s hard to hide from the words you’ve uttered in the past.

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  133. mikenmild (12,321 comments) says:

    But they didn’t have such weapons did they? And even if they did, or were working to develop them, it’s entirely unclrear that a trillion dollar invasion was the best course of action.

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  134. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    We really should have nuked the whole of the middle east and waited for the ion count to drop down to safer levels before we started pumping oil again! :)

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  135. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    I reckon that Israel will do the job for us if the Muslims decide to have a go JB.

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  136. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I believe that higher levels of radioactivity can improve the octane rating of 98 and if I can get some of that juice I might beat that cunt in the HSV that just pips me up the Wainui Hill! :)

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  137. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    You beat Minus tonight nasska!

    Well done that Eke! :)

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  138. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Shit it was a close thing though nasska! :)

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  139. Manolo (14,165 comments) says:

    Yes, UT. Keep defending that vile religion of yours: barbaric and violent Islam, a true abomination.

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  140. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    One ahead on the points table milkey!

    Basking are you? :)

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  141. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    “…..I reckon that Israel will do the job for us if the Muslims decide to have a go JB…..”

    On the Western side of things they’re the only ones with any balls left to take them head on…….Putin gives the Muslims no quarter, and it has been said that in the future the security of the EU will be very reliant on Russsia.

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  142. mikenmild (12,321 comments) says:

    It’s tough at the top though, Johnboy!

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  143. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/meizpt3gvk71elk/Dog.jpg

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  144. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Us compliant chaps will keep on listening to the rhetoric that Islam is the religion of peace Harriet as we watch the videos of them firing their AK’s into the backs of the fellows on the ground with their hands tied behind their backs! :)

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  145. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    It’s a long way to the ground when you fall off the very top of the perch milkey! :)

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  146. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Did I ever tell you about the American tourist that wanted to see the huge cray we caught on the wharf at Oban nasska? :)

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  147. Viking2 (11,668 comments) says:

    News Flash from Darwin

    The Australian Navy intercepted a boatload of people off the coast of Darwin today.

    This placed the Navy in an awkward position, as the boat was not heading to, but away from Australia, towards Indonesia.

    Another surprise finding was that they were loaded with Aussies who were all seniors of pension age.

    Their claim was that they were trying to get to Indonesia so as to be able to return to Australia as illegal immigrants

    and therefore be entitled to far more benefits than they were receiving as legitimate Australian pensioners.

    The Navy it is believed gave them food, water and fuel and assisted them on their journey.

    We are booking on the next boat out.

    Let me know if you want to go.

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  148. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Johnboy, welcome to the world of hypocrites.

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  149. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Surely Tony Abbott would have told the blue jobs to torpedo them V2 thus relieving the Aussie welfare system of another fucking liability? :)

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  150. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Keep defending that vile religion of yours: barbaric and violent Islam, a true abomination.

    Go fuck yourself, Manolo. Those hypocrites are rank amateurs compared to some priests.

    For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
    Romans 3:7

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  151. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I’ve been one for 64 years UT! :)

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  152. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    Most fun I’ve ever had with a cray goes back to not long before I was introduced to wedded bliss JB. My flatmate was the tiredest, laziest bastard ever given breath….his turn for weekend cleanup so after work Saturday I took off out the coast.

    Came home Sunday morning & the flat looked like a bombsite…..took the biggest live cray, lifted up the covers & chucked it in bed with him.

    I laughed about it all day. :)

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  153. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    If you get another give me a yell and I’ll chuck it in to the wife’s bed! :)

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  154. Viking2 (11,668 comments) says:

    JB. That comes after a story about the number of pensioners living oversea’s. From memory about 10k gone to Greece, about 6k in Italy and lots going to live in Thailand. Much cheaper all round and they still get their pension.

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  155. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I was looking towards Raro V2. Tell me what the other desti’s have to offer? :)

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  156. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Take into account heating bills in your summary V2! :)

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  157. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    The 2014 election was too close to call. Neither John Key nor David Cunnlife had enough votes to win.. There was much talk about ballot recounting, court challenges, etc., but a week-long ice fishing competition seemed the sportsman like way to settle things. The candidate who caught the most fish at the end of the week would win the election.

    After much back and forth discussion, it was decided that the contest would take place on a remote frozen lake in the lower south island high country..

    There were to be no observers present, and both men were to be sent out separately on this isolated lake and return at 5 P.M. with their catch for counting and verification by a team of neutral parties.

    At the end of the first day, John Key returned to the starting line, and he had 10 fish.

    Soon, David Cunnlife returned and had no fish. Everyone assumed he was just having a bad day or something and hopefully, he would catch up the next day.
    At the end of the 2nd day John Key came in with 20 fish, and David came in again with none.

    That evening the Labour caucus got together secretly with David and said, “We think that John Key and National are cheating so tomorrow don’t bother fishing. Just spy on him, and see just how he is cheating.’

    The next night (after John returns with 50 fish), the Labour caucus got together for the report of how the Nationals were cheating.

    David said, “You are not going to believe this . . . he’s cutting holes in the ice.”

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  158. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    Laugh, and the whole, non-Muslim, world laughs with you. :)

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  159. stigie (1,434 comments) says:

    Very good Steve, sums them up really !~

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  160. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Never laugh in the Muslim world nasska…you’ll be an apostate! :)

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  161. stigie (1,434 comments) says:

    BTW, no meltdowns today ? Now thats a surprise !

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  162. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    JK should just have suggested that Cunner’s took his mate DotCom fishing with him Steve. The ice would have made it’s own hole and got rid of both the cunt’s! :)

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  163. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    The Ideal Wife should be beautiful, but not so beautiful that people think you married her only for her beauty.

    And The Ideal Wife should be wealthy, but not so wealthy that people think you married her only for her money.

    And The Ideal Wife should be gentle, but not so gentle that she can’t suck a tennis ball through a fifty-foot garden hose.

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  164. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    “……That’s the wish-fulfilling prophecy. We’re losing in Iraq because the people who are now in charge of our policy always said that we would lose, always thought that we should lose, always tried to make us lose, and now they get to make it happen. This is a generational lesson. If the failed rollout of ObamaCare was a reminder of why we can never let the left have power over the economy, the current disaster in the Middle East is a reminder of why we can never let the left have control over our foreign policy…..”

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  165. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    And she has to be a good cook nasska! :)

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  166. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Speaking of good cooks, I wonder where Judith is tonight? :)

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  167. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    I’ve been looking back through the thread. No flare ups! No abuse!

    Okay……who’s kidnapped Baity? :)

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  168. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Naz – you were one crayzy mofo. Happy craysmas from satan claws.

    Okay……who’s kidnapped Baity?

    I don’t know . . . he came with me to my winz parole meeting . . . got talking to some gang members . . .something about ‘stealing money from NZ families’ and ‘feral lowlife vermin commie scum’ and then they took him outside to show him their V8s or something . . . Red must’ve really liked them because I didn’t see him again eh ?

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  169. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    “Okay……who’s kidnapped Baity? :)

    Surely not….not….Judith? :)

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  170. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    She’ll be after him for his body JB. :)

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  171. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I thought he was a taxi driver nasska. They have dreadful bodies.

    I reckon she just want’s free rides! :)

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  172. stigie (1,434 comments) says:

    Say nice things and humour him Nasska, you may just get a response.

    I know i did yesterday…..it was fucking brilliant !~

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  173. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    You can really get to hate a stigie that gets too far up himself! :)

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  174. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    ….”Say nice things and humour him Nasska, you may just get a response.”…..

    I can get a response from him any time stigie…..some times I don’t even have to be on line & I cop a few comment’s worth of abuse from him & kowtow.

    I regard this ability as a gift…..the davincimode shares my knack. :)

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  175. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Still it’s a worry. Here we are at 8:36 and no Red and no Judith?

    Sexual attraction is such a wonderful thing.. :)

    Just as well my sheep go to sleep early! :)

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  176. stigie (1,434 comments) says:

    I’ll take that as a complement there JB.

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  177. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    I think he lives at the Mount, there’s a key word

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  178. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    Bedwetters absence can only be put down to his internet connection being turned off by the staff at his rest home.

    I imagine that after a day on here he becomes uncontrollable, he will have worked himself into a lather, hoped onto his motor scooter and headed into down town Tauranga to hunt down some “prog commie shit”.
    Of course that means that the poor bastards tasked with looking after Bedwetter have to then go and find him and bring him back.

    Sadly I don’t imagine their night of torment will end there, at some time just after 11 they will be summoned to his room because he cannot get off the floor, he will have to be assisted back into bed and when asked why he was on the floor he will scream at them that he could not sleep because there were “reds hiding under his bed”. The staff when then have to spend the better part of an hour calming him down and reassuring him that there is nothing under his bed apart from his blow up Sarah Palin doll.

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  179. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Judith has always struck me as a lady who wouldn’t mind bestriding a mount if it stuck up enough.

    Specially since the ol’ boy is not quite up to things these days! :)

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  180. Viking2 (11,668 comments) says:

    Men can do anything.

    http://www.wimp.com/bottlecover/

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  181. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    ah right – now I know what ‘flushing’ is on a dairy farm. The internet – it’s *exactly* like the fucking Matrix where you can be loaded with a programme to do something instantly. Brilliant !!

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  182. Viking2 (11,668 comments) says:

    https://www.youtube.com/embed/r4B90Knx57w

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  183. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    To all the ‘junk food is cheaper than good food’ dickheads . . .

    I know every square metre of every shop within cooee of my kitchen. I can currently get . . .

    Bananas 99c/kg. Carrots 88c/kg. Apples 99c/kg. Cabbage $2. Onions 98c/kg. Pumpkin $2 on the right day.

    I’m blown away by those prices myself and very thankful. Dirt, dirt cheap. Much cheaper than junk food.

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  184. mikenmild (12,321 comments) says:

    Eating all those veggies must make your dole stretch a bit further.

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  185. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Eating all those veggies must make your dole stretch a bit further.

    Well – it does – but it’s primarily a weight control thing. Low kilojoules per 100g – low food energy value. I spend money on crap as well – don’t worry – hahaha. Eg – diet soft drink – waste of money. I like it though.

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  186. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Stick your bananas up your arse. I can get fillet steak at $28/kg from my tame butcher…..beautiful it is! :)

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  187. Colville (2,318 comments) says:

    Chefs choice in wanganui. Best. Steak. Anywhere. ☺

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  188. Colville (2,318 comments) says:

    And they deliver!

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  189. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    The thing about the Iraq invasion is that it was believed by many, many people that Saddam had WMDs. It wasn’t just Bush, and it wasn’t just the Americans.

    Felt like an awful lot of us were out at protests agreeing with agencies like UNMOVIC that Saddam had no WMDs, and on the off-chance that some had avoided UNSCOM destruction (“How do we know he has WMDs? We still have the receipts.”), they would be long long past their shelf life.

    Felt like that song and dance Bush and Powell did about “mobile chemical weapons labs” was unconvincing to the UN Security Council, who denied the US request for a resolution sanctioning invasion.

    We didn’t believe that Saddam had WMDs. We believed that it was a bullshit lie made up to capitalise on the fear and anger from 9/11 to illegally invade a foreign country. And there were a lot of us.

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  190. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Here’s my two cents on the streaker tackle:

    If you’re the streaker – you can’t exactly complain too much about it.

    The tackle itself – by a 19 year old higher level rugby player doing ground security – was totally fucking sickening to the core. The streaker was standing still with its back turned. Completely OTT. 100% OTT. It just shows you what fuckin idiot boofheads some of these rugby culture dipshits are. I don’t care who it is – what kind of fuckwit takes a kinghit cheap shot like that ? Just a cowardly kinghit cheap shot from an aspiring pro rugby player – someone that’s trained hard to tackle with maximum force. It’s not as if it was one of the unsporty unfit fat as anything useless muppet security drongos that couldn’t catch a cold.

    Why didn’t he just take the piss 100% and kinghit streaker from behind with a full force clothesline swinging arm belting the dork around the back of the head ? If that had actually happened . . . a lot of the ‘pro tackle’ people – you still wouldn’t lose them even then – they’d still say fair enough – shoudn’t be streaking. They might even get off watching it quite a few times over and over. What if shit for brains ended up dead from being hit ? Do some hardline people just have no limit ? Ah yeah he’s dead but who cares – shouldn’t streak eh ? Fuckin hell mate.

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  191. mikenmild (12,321 comments) says:

    Agreed. Over the top.

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  192. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    The USA has weapons of mass destruction.
    Sufficient atomic bombs to kill the entire human race several times over .
    should the rest of the world invade….?

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