General Debate 3 June 2014

June 3rd, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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149 Responses to “General Debate 3 June 2014”

  1. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    It is with interest one sees NZ Herald once again on the Labour campaign, with a left-wing messenger by the name of Savage, attempting to besmirch our current government with a distasteful and ambiguous article on a immigrant. When are these leeches masquerading as journalists going to realise it just makes one resolute in their voting preference, and it is sure not what the losers pushing pro-Labour rhetoric expect!

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  2. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    Daily Telegraph reports six soldiers were killed searching for the deserter Bergdahl. He’s no hero and nor is the C in C essentially swapping 5 generals for one useless sergeant. Generals who are war criminals.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/10870318/Bowe-Bergdahl-a-deserter-who-cost-soldiers-lives-say-US-army-comrades.html

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  3. EAD (618 comments) says:

    As many well know but are to scared to say and evidenced in the bribery scandal of the Nats major donor in todays news, ethnic murders and violent assaults over religious disputes – when you invite the 3rd World into your country, eventually you become the 3rd world.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/06/02/Multicultural-surrender-has-turned-Britain-into-a-third-world-country

    Funny isn’t it – our Media and political class keeping telling us and imploring us to be a “tolerant society”, we just end up tolerating intolerance.

    I wonder why our political class is knowingly import colossal numbers from the 3rd world knowing full well that it will break up the social and cultural fabric of our nation and fatally dilute the cohesion and unity and emotional attachment that has bound these two islands together.

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  4. mjw (227 comments) says:

    igm – I think National should simply refund all his money. If National wants to occupy the moral high ground on funding political parties, they need to show they mean it.

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  5. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    He earns $147,800 per annum, has all his travel paid for, plus he gets a leader’s allowance. But Hone Harawira can’t/won’t pay his own fine, so pays it with Other People’s Money, which may or may not include a donation from Winston.

    Now he reckons that the issue of whether or not he needs to declare the donations is “petty”. Sorry Hone, but the law applies to every New Zealander, and the rules around pecuniary interests apply to every MP. If you’d paid the fine yourself (even thought that’s not the socialist way), you’d have saved yourself a power of grief.

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/pay-your-own-fine-hone.html

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  6. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    mjw: Is this what Cunliffe did with Slobcom’s money. By the way, who actually allowed this person into NZ? Get your left-leaning feet on the ground . . . loser!

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  7. tom hunter (4,422 comments) says:

    If National wants to occupy the moral high ground on funding political parties, they need to show they mean it.

    The moral high ground? Why bother occupying that when your opponents have descended to “your level”, as well as demonstrating that it was all a meaningless pose in the first place.

    To paraphrase Shaw, we now know what Laila Harre and the rest of the Hard-Left are, and have determined their price.

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  8. flipper (3,563 comments) says:

    igm…

    One presumes you are referring to Liu. Yes, it is part of the MSM obsession with National, ACT, UF and the Conservs. Even the poor Maori party is on the receiving end of ascerbic writing, and overt attempts to ridicule (as the High Court said of TV3 in respect of Bankside) anyone supporting National (et al) v the left wing nutters.

    I find it hard to understand how ostensibly educated folks can believe in the pseudo economic bullshit espoused by the red melon greens and the like.

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  9. OneTrack (2,613 comments) says:

    KS – “Sorry Hone, but the law applies to every New Zealander,”

    Does Hone consider himself a “New Zealander”?

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  10. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    @ One Track – I’m sure he considers himself a New Zealander on pay-day, when the taxpayer-funded golden eagle flies over and shits on him ;-)

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  11. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    kowtow: I think you realise that the left, for many years, have been aligned to pacifism, conscientious objection, and desertion. This further highlights the devious and evil steps lefties will take in the pursuit of power. Obama makes Neville Chamberlain appear a war hero.

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  12. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    Why did UKIP do less well in London?

    Part of the explanation is that globalisation – which gives many a sense that they have little direct control over their economic destiny – enriches London.
    Much of the rest of the UK sees globalisation and its manifestations – such as immigration – as disempowering, impoverishing and a threat. Whereas for Londoners, globalisation is an economic competition they are apparently winning.
    Of course, there are tensions within London generated by the nature of its success – the west London ghettoes of the non-dom super-rich aren’t everyone’s cup of tea, and high and inflationary property prices undermine social cohesion.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27585765
    London bucks the UKIP surge and appears headed in a direction far removed from the rest of the UK
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/archives/42348

    The Truth About UKIP’s Performance in London
    http://www.ukipdaily.com/truth-ukips-performance-london/#.U4zZUyjb7pc
    Native born Brits make up 50% 0f London

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  13. Keeping Stock (10,100 comments) says:

    @ flipper – Jared Savage’s story this morning is very close to shark-jumping. Liu wasn’t charged with any offence, but Savage is smearing him by inference. Perhaps Jared Savage should talk to Cameron Slater about the life and times of the Large German Gentleman and launch a campaign against him too.

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  14. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    EAD

    Import the third world and that’s what you end up with. Why does South Auckland constantly feature in the negative stats here in Aotearoa, cos it’s been turned into a third world ghetto. On the immigration thread I see we import nearly 1000 Samoans annually in the humanitarian category,that doesn’t count the family reunion category which could include thousands more.

    Why import social and welfare disadvantage? Aren’t us taxpayers hard done by enough?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10870590/Key-figure-in-Trojan-Horse-plot-is-an-Ofsted-inspector.html

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  15. EAD (618 comments) says:

    @ flipper

    Many of us consider National to be “left wing nutters”.

    In my book they tick all the boxes of being “left-wing nutters”. They are definitely no friends of liberty:
    - Big spending, big deficits
    - Lowering interest rates to create artificial booms and “stimulus”
    - Welfare for all
    - Centralisation of power
    - Restricting individual liberties
    - Relentless moralising
    - Redefining ancient traditions like “marriage”
    - Interfering in individuals private lives “aka” smacking laws
    - Nation changing levels of immigration
    - Political Correctness
    - Spying on it’s citizens

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  16. gazzmaniac (2,317 comments) says:

    Something a bit light hearted to start the day.
    You’ve gotta love the comment from the old guy in the supermarket right at the end!

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  17. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    Wayne Brittenden calls Britain a “mongrel nation”

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2598073/counterpoint-for-1-june-2014

    Modern humans first arrived in Great Britain during the Palaeolithic era, but until the arrival of the Romans (1st century BC) there was no historical record. With the fall of the Roman Empire, Anglo-Saxons (c. 5th century AD) and Vikings (8th century AD) migrated to Great Britain. In 1066, the Normans successfully took control of England and, in subsequent years, there was some migration from France. In the 19th century, immigration by people outside Europe began on a small scale as people arrived from the British colonies. This increased during the 20th century.

    DNA provides a direct record of the effects of immigration on the population.[1] Studies of DNA suggest that the biological influence on Britain of immigration from the Norman conquests up till the 20th century was rather small; marked more by stability than change.[2][3]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_immigration_to_Great_Britain

    Despite the documentary Mongrel Nation it just doesn’t stack up (if you can be bothered looking in to it).
    He also calls supporters “under achievers”. Presumably they under achieve to assess the effects of immigration on people like themselves?

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  18. mjw (227 comments) says:

    IGM. Keeping stock: Did you read this?

    From the Supreme Court of Chongqing:
    *Ping Ma, Secretary of Tongliang County, Chongqing committee of the Communist Party of China, and his wife, Jianping Shen.
    *Both arrested in September 2006 on suspicion of bribery and found guilty. Sentenced to 13 and three years in prison respectively.
    *Involved in a number of real estate deals from Donghua Liu and his company, Chongqing Tianlong Developing Company, worth a total of $375,000.
    *The couple purchased five units in a tower developed by the company and owed $25,000. The debt was waived.
    *”Buying low, selling high”. The couple signed a contract to purchase floor space in a commercial building for the “unusually low price” of $1800 per square metre – a total of $50,000 for 27.5 metres. The company purchased the shop space back for $100,000 – twice the original price – and a net benefit of $50,000.
    *Jianping Shen signed purchase agreements with Liu’s company for $112,500, when the market value was $412,500.
    *Total benefit: $375,000

    Will you also waive my $25,000 debt, sell me cheap apartments, and then buy them back at a higher price?

    Why are you defending this?

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  19. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    Oh come off it, Liu’s “business dealings” in that case seem dodgy . In many jurisdictions he’d also be on a charge of offering a bribe.

    We know very little about the case and the character.

    Interesting that the Comrades in the PRC aren’t after him as well. Too well placed with the governing party of a Pacific nation where the PRC is doing a massive amount of work to influence our internal politics etc?.

    A lot is said of fat Kraut along those lines.

    You Nationalistas need to wake up about the ties your party has with the Chinese Comrades.

    Kowtow.Kowtow to the Emperor in Peking.

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  20. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    A UKIP council candidate claims he was stabbed in the face by a Muslim who lives nearby and whose children regularly attack his own offspring and call his family infidels.

    Bobby Anwar, 33, of Accrington, Lancashire, said in a post on social networking site Facebook that he was attacked by a man whose family are ‘avid Labour supporters’.

    He said the male had used a ‘sharp metal weapon’ in the attack on Saturday which fractured his cheekbone and eye socket and claims he will need extensive surgery.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2635306/UKIP-candidate-stabbed-face-local-Muslim-leaving-broken-cheek-bone-eye-socket.html#ixzz33W6lpmwd

    Independant
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/ukip-candidate-bobby-anwar-stabbed-in-the-face-in-attack-9410465.html

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  21. flipper (3,563 comments) says:

    Keeping….

    Yes, Dotcom is one really nasty son of a bitch. But he provides Granny with “good copy”. WOBH has harpooned the slob, as has DPF. But David is often too polite to reflect his apparently true feelings. :-)

    EAD ..
    A Nutter, personified.

    Kowtow…
    You are confused. The laws or customs in one country do not amount to an offence in NZ, unless the “crime” (or attempt) takes place in NZ.

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  22. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    Talking of Samoans, I see our media are jumping on the “Let’s play footie in Samoa” bandwagon.

    This seems to have been kicked off by cultural marxist Campbell ,unhappy that NZ will play a test in the US.(The great satan)

    TV1 joined the fray last night.

    Who, where and when NZ play is up to the NZRFU not a bunch of multiculturalists in our left wing media,and certainly not up to the Samoan (where’s the disaster relief money) Prime Minister of Samoa/head of Samoan rugby.

    These media wallies try to make out it would be of some benefit to Samoa. Well maybe they should go away and do their sums on how much benefit we NZ taxpayers are to Samoa on a day to day basis ,before butting their noses into NZRFU business.

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  23. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    Joris de Bres
    Race Relations Commissioner
    Kaihautū Whakawhanaunga ā Iwi

    August 2008

    I undertook to look into the issues raised, pursuant to the Commission’s mandate to encourage harmonious relations and to promote respect for human rights. These rights include the rights to freedom of expression and academic freedom, which were not in question.

    The review was not a formal investigation or inquiry, just a closer look at the facts, discussions with those involved and an account of what occurred. The review itself contributed to some positive developments and dialogue along the way. Other processes exist to deal with complaints about media and academic standards (in this case the New Zealand Press Council and Massey University protocols).

    //
    The available data generally indicate a trend of improvement rather than deterioration in Pacific peoples’ economic and social situation. The number of migrants from the Pacific is only a small proportion of all migrants that come to New Zealand each year. Sixty per cent of Pacific peoples were born in New Zealand. Many of the remainder have been here for many years.
    Pacific peoples suffered more than any other group from the economic and social policies of the eighties and nineties and their recovery from this major setback has taken time. Pacific peoples do continue to experience significant inequalities and addressing this situation must remain a priority.

    http://www.hrc.co.nz/…/26-Aug-2008_14-22-34_Pacific_Peoples_in_NZ.doc

    Report continues to highlight the disparities for Pacific people
    http://community.scoop.co.nz/2014/05/report-continues-to-highlight-the-disparities-for-pacific-pe/

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  24. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    flapper

    Did I say what big money Liu did was a crime in NZ? No.Dodgy ,yes. happy to have dodgy donors?

    keep defending the rights of corrupt Chinese money to bolster your boys’ chances. Unlike China,where so much National money seems to come from, we’re still a free country, for the moment. I’ll express my opinion ,you yours.

    ps Coming up to the Chicom anniversary of the Tien An Men massacre. Move along ,nothing to see here.

    It would be interesting to know how many ex National ministers have directorships on boards of Chicom companies.

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  25. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    Kowtow…
    You are confused. The laws or customs in one country do not amount to an offence in NZ, unless the “crime” (or attempt) takes place in NZ.

    Recently, Wenzhou’s Fortune Weekly conducted a survey of local millionaires. One question was: If forced to choose between your business and your family, which would it be? Of the respondents, 60 percent chose business, and 20 percent chose family. The other 20 percent couldn’t make up their minds.

    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/06/instant-cities/hessler-text/2

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  26. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    Down with flipper (dogfish dressed up as dolphin)!

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  27. minus (136 comments) says:

    Labour is going to screw around with your KiwiSavings to reduce the value of the NZ dollar when the setting of that value is actually the poor interest rates in US banks where investment over two years it can reduce in value by 1%.
    And now that most of the change in net migration is about fewer people leaving NZ, and Kiwis returning home. So what can Labour do with that?
    Because again they haven’t paused to work out what the actual problem is.

    Meanwhile Cunliffe will not indicate approval of Green’s carbon tax until after the Election, nor express a view on the Internet / Mana parties union although the two previous Labour Leaders of this term, both who rated higher than him, voice adamant disapproval.

    Labour needs to co-align itself a little, before thinking of coalition with anyone else :-)

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  28. MT_Tinman (2,993 comments) says:

    EAD (402 comments) says:
    June 3rd, 2014 at 8:30 am

    Many of us consider National to be “left wing nutters”.

    many
    ˈmɛni/Submit
    determiner, pronoun, & adjective
    1.
    a large number of.
    “many people agreed with her”
    synonyms: numerous, a great/good deal of, a lot of, a large/great number of, great quantities of, plenty of, countless, innumerable, scores of, crowds of, droves of, an army of, a horde of, a multitude of, a multiplicity of, multitudinous, numberless, multiple, untold;

    Can you back up this claim?

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  29. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    Yes kowtow, the All Blacks should play a game in Samoa. Nothing to do with cultural Marxism BTW, just good manners.

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  30. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    Our culture/politics has no effective response to globalisation/ climate change/ population.

    Green Party: kumbaya, all welcome (ramp up wind farms, tap into top 1% – they have all the ice cream).
    Labour: one foot in; one foot out (if it’s o.k with Radical Rat).
    National: drop your pants and go for it. UF clinger fish.
    NZ First. Not articulate.
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/naturally-selected/201206/are-we-hardwired-damage-the-environment

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  31. dirty harry (429 comments) says:

    Ive just returned from a months holiday in Thailand. Not far from the mainland is a lovely island , Ko Lanta. It is predominantly a Muslim population. My wife and I spent 10 days there and in that time we had many interaction with the Muslim community and its people. I found them to be a miserable lot , always scowling, eyeballing us or ignoring us , you could feel hate oozing out of them. Trying to be pleasant to them resulted in either silence or a grunt. We do not want this lot in NZ..they do not fit in with our culture.

    Vile people..vile religion.

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  32. ross411 (220 comments) says:

    mjw (125 comments) says:
    June 3rd, 2014 at 8:37 am
    IGM. Keeping stock: Did you read this?

    From the Supreme Court of Chongqing:
    ……
    *Involved in a number of real estate deals from Donghua Liu and his company, Chongqing Tianlong Developing Company, worth a total of $375,000.
    ….
    Will you also waive my $25,000 debt, sell me cheap apartments, and then buy them back at a higher price?

    Why are you defending this?

    Defending it isn’t necessarily wrong. Have you ever been to China? Conducted business there? Corruption is a way of life, to a large degree. Corrupt officials, corrupt businesses, and even decent businesses that have to play along because it’s the only way to make it work.

    We’re lucky that in New Zealand it’s nowhere near that bad. Yes, a German resident who does not pay people who do work for him, has a questionable fortune based off piracy, and has made questionable choices when it comes to racist possessions and calling people niggers, has bought a political party successfully in such a way that it looks like he is avoiding extradition. Yes, we have the leader of the main opposition party who also speaks in racist accents, pretends not to be a “rich prick”, lies about reasons for buying a “rich prick” house, claims to have all sorts of ill thought out policies where when the details are provided they are found lacking, so no longer provides details. Where the main opposition party is managed by an admitted unrepentant thief. And so on..

    Yet, here you are, in your nice house or apartment. You get drinkable water on tap. You get fresh air. You don’t need to pay bribes. You can sit there and talk about how things are done in China and act like you’re in a morally better position. First world privilege.

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  33. Nostalgia-NZ (4,913 comments) says:

    ‘Keeping Stock (9,923 comments) says:

    June 3rd, 2014 at 8:28 am

    @ flipper – Jared Savage’s story this morning is very close to shark-jumping. Liu wasn’t charged with any offence, but Savage is smearing him by inference. Perhaps Jared Savage should talk to Cameron Slater about the life and times of the Large German Gentleman and launch a campaign against him too’

    Off the grass KS. Liu clearly was the person who offered the bribes. The fact that he gave evidence supporting it suggests at least 2 things, 1, that he sang for his supper (possibly his life in fact,) 2, that he may have ‘dropped the other party’ in it for further advantages to himself. Neither of which give him credit nor indeed the circumstances that led to his citizenship. If the Herald were able to uncover this then why not Wellington?

    As someone has alluded to above the country is getting dragged down to third world standards of corruption. If Cunliffe needed more supporting evidence of the need for draconian immigration policy this case could be it. Standing back from the Banks/Dotcom situation and this of Liu one thing is clearly obvious before the detail follows – these fellows ‘believe’ they are buying favours with their political donations. Dotcom with his probably justifiable call from Mt Eden to the suddenly deaf Banks and Liu approaching ‘old friend’ citizenship facilitator and bach finder/fixer Williamson when in a spot of bother over a domestic matter. I don’t see this as party political ‘disease’ but as an open opportunity for corruption that is being exploited on a level that is likely to be greater than what we see now.

    We recently have an impoverished Fijian deported facing death without help from NZ medical authorities who dies, whilst on the other hand we have Ministers partying and attending celebrations of sites or buildings being opened as wide as the cheques earlier ‘gifted’ to their partys with ‘no strings attached.’ Time to sort this shit out. If there was ever a hint of an ‘invasion’ by stealth before I missed it, until reading about this story today. Despite the fact that it must have bothered many in the electorate the ‘cosiness’ between new immigrants, their ‘donations’ and business interests. One way to avoid this is to have political donations no longer allowed to be anonymous and to be pooled for pro rata distribution to all political parties by the number of seats they hold in any current Parliament. Add to that independent scrutiny of ‘citizenship’ arrangements.

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  34. EAD (618 comments) says:

    Tinman – you’re obviously a Truman Burbank from the Truman show :)

    http://dollarvigilante.com/blog/2014/5/30/the-truman-show-us-economy-real-gdp-numbers-show-9-annualize.html

    You still think National is the “party of individual freedom”. I want to believe that as well but I can’t. Like “global warming” or “the Nazis are right wing” or “Islam is a religion of peace” the truth is often too painful to acknowledge once you realise that most of what you have been taught in your life isn’t true.

    It was only a few years ago that I would say things like National will never balance the books, they will flood the country with unsuitable immigrants, attack our liberties and kowtow to the gay agenda and so many people would laugh and call me crazy.

    Then just a short time later I would get regularly attacked despite the evidence their own eyes am ears were telling them. They would say I was a dangerous radical. But even that didn’t last long. I rarely hear that anymore, either.

    Now, many people consider what I am saying to be self-evident. Of course, there is that saying from Arthur Schopenhauer that truth goes through three stages: “First it is ridiculed, second it is fiercely opposed, third it becomes self-evident.”

    I’ve seen the ideas I talk about go through all three phases in just the last five years! That’s how fast the Internet has accelerated change. Prior to the Internet, I likely wouldn’t even have had access to information to come to this understanding. And, even if I had, my ideas wouldn’t have spread much farther than to a few people through word of mouth. Today through the use of new media, our Libertarian message (I am an Austrian economist) has a large and growing audience of people worldwide who have not only caught on to the message of freedom but are now spreading it themselves.

    Just think – twenty years ago if you brought up the “Federal Reserve” amongst friends no one would even know what you are talking about. Today, many people in the world are aware of what a power for evil central banking is and movements like “End the Fed” continue to grow. Ten years ago you’d never even hear the word libertarian. Now, that word has become a regular part of daily jargon and all kinds of people are gravitating to it. Look atthe rise of UKIP for example or even a person like Glenn Beck, who I would have described as a neocon a few years ago, now has anarchists on his show regularly and talks about things like bitcoin being a great thing to end the tyrannical fiat currency central banking system.

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  35. Scott (1,707 comments) says:

    Interesting observations dirty Harry. I believe Islam is a negative force around the world and it enslaves its people.It seems a very dark religion.

    One bright spot was the pregnant Sudanese woman who was going to be executed for supposedly leaving Islam and converting to Christianity. Reports were that the authorities had changed their minds and were going to release her within a few days following an international hue and cry.

    However not so fast – “Sudan’s Foreign Ministry is denying media reports that a woman sentenced to death for refusing to renounce her Christian faith will be released within days, following an international outcry.”
    http://www.voanews.com/content/sudan-denies-immediate-release-of-christian-woman-condemned-to-death/1927171.html

    But it gets even worse. Apparently the woman had the baby in prison in chains. They kept a pregnant woman in chains even while delivering her baby!? What sort of people are we dealing with here?!!

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  36. dirty harry (429 comments) says:

    They are a foul lot Scott. I mean , just take a look at England. What a wreck. Australia is well on its way , some areas in Sydney you just dont venture into. Look at Auckland a few weeks ago with the trouble in the mosque , Police were called and I believed its been closed ?

    We are stark raving mad if we continue letting them come into our country. Asking for trouble.

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  37. OneTrack (2,613 comments) says:

    “Meanwhile Cunliffe will not indicate approval of Green’s carbon tax until after the Election”

    He will do what Russsel and Metiria tell him to. Shearer found out what happens when you upset the greens.

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  38. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    More anti-Muslim bigotry rife on Kiwiblog again this morning, I see.

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  39. Manolo (13,375 comments) says:

    Five beasts, five savages, five Jihadists exchanged for one soldier:
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/02/look-at-five-taliban-commanders-set-free-in-prisoner-exchange/

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  40. Nostalgia-NZ (4,913 comments) says:

    Doubt it milkenmild. dirty harry, as you can tell by his descriptions of what is happening in other parts of the world, went amongst the muslim population in Thailand with a completely open mind.

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  41. MT_Tinman (2,993 comments) says:

    EAD, unlike you I talk only for myself.

    I don’t disagree that National is left wing – for most of my 60 years it has been – and certainly not vote for them for this reason.

    However I suspect I am one of the few. I certainly make no patently false claim to be one of many.

    As an aside I disagree with most of your post.

    I realised in my twenties (well before the internet became accessible) that the right wing stood for personal responsibility and the left stood for getting someone else to pay for it by force and coercion.

    I then started reading the many books available on subjects like economics, politics and history and formed my own opinion.

    The information has always been there, the internet has simply made it available to the lazy.

    Unlike many of the self-identified right-wingers on here (most of whom resemble communists in everything but name) I am not scared of progress, see value in being liberal and strongly support personal responsibility.

    I will, of course, vote for ACT.

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  42. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    Open at the back as well as the front, I think.

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  43. dirty harry (429 comments) says:

    Continuing idiocy from the useful idiot milkmike. Do yourself a favour son , climb out from behind your state funded desk and tour some parts of the world. Then you can open your mouth and comment. Go to the likes of Hat Yai, Yala , Songahla , all Muslim provinces in Southern Thailand. Have a good look milky…open your eyes. Even you will be disgusted. Until then , your opinion on the matter means diddly squat.

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  44. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    While I will continue to hold your opinion in the regard it deserves.

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  45. dirty harry (429 comments) says:

    Thats ok milky..continue your life with your head up your butt commenting on things you know nothing about.

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  46. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    But I only comment on things I know about.

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  47. NoCash (255 comments) says:

    Is Bowe Bergdahl the real life version of Nicholas Brody…?

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  48. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Mike,

    It would be anti-Muslim bigotry if Muslim’s belief’s were being disparaged. However, there are a number of links to Muslims behaving very badly that is causing what you perceive to be bigotry. Also, if those actions were rare, it could be bigotry, yet the volume of news reports over years and years shows that the actions being linked to are not unusual.

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  49. Ross12 (1,149 comments) says:

    OK can someone please explain what Norman is talking about with his Carbon Tax. He seems to be talking in riddles as far as I can see. I really don’t understand how this is anything but an attempt at income redistribution.

    https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/24090591/nationals-ets-costing-motorists-up-to-112m-a-year-greens/

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  50. David Garrett (6,447 comments) says:

    Milky: You are on record here as saying you do not see any reason why the results would be any different here than in – say – the UK if Muslim immigration reaches 5%. Are you really trying to tell us you would not mind if we had ghettos in some of our cities as in Bradford?

    I would take my rheumatism pills and become a geriatric guerilla to prevent that happening…

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  51. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Milky: You are on record here as saying you do not see any reason why the results would be any different here than in – say – the UK if Muslim immigration reaches 5%. Are you really trying to tell us you would not mind if we had ghettos in some of our cities as in Bradford?

    Perhaps the problem is ghettos, rather than Muslims.

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  52. Elaycee (4,302 comments) says:

    Milkmilo: But I only comment on things I know about… .

    Then I don’t expect to ever see you comment about a Public Servant doing a decent day’s work, Milky….

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  53. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    In my position, Elaycee, I get to see a lot of hard work.

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  54. MT_Tinman (2,993 comments) says:

    Everyone (almost) is anti-muslim but the majority of immigrants are Hindu.

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  55. Redbaiter (7,632 comments) says:

    I don’t understand why people put so much time and effort into attempting to persuade Milky that he is wrong.

    He’s just some useless little bubble living commie.

    Fuck him.

    Let him think what he likes.

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  56. Albert_Ross (249 comments) says:

    Ross12: In theory, the difference between an ETS and a carbon tax is as follows: a well-implemented emissions trading scheme will give you a certain amount of carbon emissions reduction (the amount is determined by Government decision) for an uncertain price (price will be determined by the workings of the market) – whereas a well-implemented carbon tax will give you an uncertain amount of carbon emissions reduction (the amount will be determined by the workings of the market) for a certain price (the price is determined by Government decision).

    Both approaches have the political economy problem that they will not make a substantive difference to actual carbon emissions unless the Government is prepared to take decisions that hurt.

    In practice, however, either is likely to be badly implemented and administered due to the usual suspects of political short-termism, information and data problems and lack of resource to enforce; and this will give you confusion, inefficiency and counterproductive outcomes.

    If a Government really does want to reduce carbon emissions and to do it in the most economically efficient way, its best bet would probably be to focus on improving the design and implementation of the ETS.

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  57. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    I’d like to read more about emissions trading schemes and carbon taxes, etc. Anyone got any good links they can recommend me?

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  58. Odakyu-sen (441 comments) says:

    “More anti-Muslim bigotry…”

    Bigot: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group).
    Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

    If you hate or refuse to accept Nazis, then are you a bigot?

    I think the key point here is “unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc.” Would a reasonable person feel that the anti-muslim sentiment on this blog is “unfair”? If it can be reasonably shown to be “unfair” or unwarranted, then you have a case for bigotry.

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  59. Ross12 (1,149 comments) says:

    Thanks Albert , but reading Normans PR it is really nothing to do with reducing emissions. That is just smokescreen. As I said yesterday if you tax a company , acknowledge that the costs will be passed on and then give that same business a 1% company tax reduction where is the incentive for that business to change anything.
    So that is why I think Norman is talking in riddles.

    Disclosure: I don’t believe in the AGW theory.

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  60. stephieboy (2,186 comments) says:

    Redbaiter, proving comfortable for you in residence at tin foil hat la la land re Pre Maori White Celtic civilization.?

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  61. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Would a reasonable person feel that the anti-muslim sentiment on this blog is “unfair”?

    Would a reasonable person consider it fair to describe one-fifth of the population of the planet as “vile people” and “a foul lot” on the basis of the locals of an island in Thailand being unfriendly towards some tourists?

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  62. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    No Ryan, so I’d describe that as bigotry.

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  63. Redbaiter (7,632 comments) says:

    The left believe our western traditions are completely lacking in value and seek to turn our society into their delusional version of global socialist Nirvana.

    Given we all know that everything the left touches turns to excrement, where do you think the above ambition will lead if we allow them to fulfill it?

    If you think that our traditional western civilisation has any value, then the left must be repelled.

    A primary step in this strategy is to knock the left’s odious little watchtower guards off the walls they have built within our culture around freedom of thought and speech, and then pull those walls down.

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  64. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    While conservatives seek to turn the clock back to an era which only exists in their imagination.

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  65. stephieboy (2,186 comments) says:

    Redbaiter, but everything far righters like Martin Doutre and yourself touch turns to Gold.?

    Hmmm.. !

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  66. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Would a reasonable person consider it fair to describe one-fifth of the population of the planet as “vile people” and “a foul lot” on the basis of the locals of an island in Thailand being unfriendly towards some tourists?

    I doubt that was the entire extent of the source of the commenter’s opinion. They’d have to not read the news or be aware of anything outside of their own lives in order for that to be the case.

    I’ve had a couple of run-ins with Muslims. The not so pleasant ones just confirm what I read in the news.

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  67. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    Well, all the Muslims I have met have been thoroughly decent people, so I guess on the basis of that I must be right to conclude that there are no problems with Muslims per se.

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  68. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    I doubt that was the entire extent of the source of the commenter’s opinion. They’d have to not read the news or be aware of anything outside of their own lives in order for that to be the case.

    I’ve had a couple of run-ins with Muslims. The not so pleasant ones just confirm what I read in the news.

    Let’s say you met 375 Muslims and they were all just awful people and you decided on that basis that all Muslims are terrible.

    Statistically, that’s the equivalent of meeting just one awful New Zealander and deciding that all New Zealanders are awful.

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  69. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Odakyu-sen,

    If you hate or refuse to accept Nazis, then are you a bigot?

    If Nazis were a fifth of the world’s population, then maybe… according to the arguments being made here.

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  70. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Let’s say you met 375 Muslims and they were all just awful people and you decided on that basis that all Muslims are terrible.

    Statistically, that’s the equivalent of meeting just one awful New Zealander and deciding that all New Zealanders are awful.

    That’s a bit of a contortion there, Ryan!

    The question is, were the Muslims that I met representative or an anomaly. According to the news, they were representative in their attitudes towards women – something you personally will never experience.

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  71. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    If Nazis were a fifth of the world’s population, then maybe… according to the arguments being made here.

    Do you really think that’s what’s being said, Lucia? I’m asking seriously, because if you do, I obviously haven’t expressed my point clearly.

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  72. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    The question is, were the Muslims that I met representative or an anomaly.

    A question before that is whether or not Muslims are such a homogenous population that any anecdotal number can be representative or anomalous in the first place.

    According to the news, they were representative in their attitudes towards women – something you personally will never experience.

    Oh, they were males? Yeah, males are like that.

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  73. Scott (1,707 comments) says:

    This is what Churchill said about Islam and I think he is right -

    “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
    Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia
    in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many
    countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods
    of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the
    Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and
    refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan
    law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as
    a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the
    faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

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  74. Albert_Ross (249 comments) says:

    Ross12: do the Greens actually say that the tax rebate will be given back to the same company in the same amount as the tax it paid? If that’s the case, then – just as you say – it won’t have any incentive effect whatsoever. If it is to have an incentive effect, a carbon tax should be paid by companies proportionate to the carbon emissions they create, so that if a company reduces its carbon emissions, then its tax liability reduces.

    If you’re also going to have a tax rebate (not actually technically necessary) then that ought to be allocated on some other basis, such that the costs and benefits fall on different people – preferably, obviously, the costs fall on polluters and the benefits fall on those who don’t pollute or who reduce pollution. Which is exactly the same as the effect that a well designed ETS would have.

    However, if you don’t believe in the AGW theory then I’m not sure why you’re interested in the difference between different economic approaches to reducing carbon emissions – you would presumably not want the Government to take any such action.

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  75. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    I’m not saying that Muslims are all saints. I’m saying that it is almost always best to treat people on a case-by-case basis, and that it is unfair to tar whole populations of people with the same brush because of the actions of a minority or even a majority of them.

    Another statistical analogy. Tarring all Muslims with the actions of a group of 3570 Muslims is the equivalent of tarring all Catholic priests with the actions of one.

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  76. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    milky says ‘In my position I get to see a lot of hard work”.

    By that I assume his office overlooks a building site.

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  77. Albert_Ross (249 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull, here’s a couple of summaries of emissions trading vs. carbon tax approaches:

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jan/31/carbon-tax-cap-and-trade

    http://www.env-econ.net/carbon_tax_vs_capandtrade.html

    As previously noted, effectiveness depends crucially on how well designed and implemented the policy is. Some commentators take the unfair approach of comparing how one approach has worked in practice, with how the other approach would ideally work in theory. I think there’s some of that in the Guardian article

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  78. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Thanks, Albert. Much appreciated.

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  79. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    What I experienced from the Muslim males is unique. Western males know the boundaries with women, and even though some of them will cross those boundaries, they at least know that they are doing so. No strange Western male has ever approached me in a train station and has seriously asked me if I would come home with him for money. Western men tend to know that such an approach would be intimidating and inappropriate, especially if the women in question is not dressed as a hooker. No Western male has ever acted like a complete and utter arsehole in a business setting in order to get my attention, and then when he gets it, turns on the charm.

    The context is for all of this is this impression that many Muslim men have is that Western women are sluts, and therefore they will treat them like that. Apparently they have this impression because we don’t clothe ourselves in sacks.

    If Nazis were a fifth of the world’s population, then maybe… according to the arguments being made here.

    Do you really think that’s what’s being said, Lucia? I’m asking seriously, because if you do, I obviously haven’t expressed my point clearly.

    It’s some of it, but ultimately there is this underlying belief that you and Mike have is that people who are raised in a radically different culture from us are just like us. That their religion is harmless, that it’s only the bad people who give it a bad name. And, I kind of agree, because everyone to some extent knows right from wrong – except their religion is not harmless, far from it.

    When surveys have been done of Muslim nations, the numbers of people who think that apostates should be killed is a measure of how fanatical that population is. Apparently very high in Egypt (80% or so) and very low in Turkey (less than 5%).

    The poor Christian woman in Sudan is on death row because of this very widespread belief in Muslim countries that apostates should be killed. I don’t know if Sudan was ever surveyed, but my guess is that a high percentage of the population there supports death for apostasy. Which puts the government there in a bit of a situation, as, if they are lenient, maybe the population will take out their anger against the politicians, as they have done in Pakistan when some politicians were trying to change the blasphemy laws (they were murdered).

    There was a very nice, quiet Pakistani family in Auckland just recently (most likely Muslim, but you never know). The mother and the teenage daughter were stabbed and it seems the father has been taken away by police. Maybe you’d consider the family lovely people, if you’d known them?

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  80. Ross12 (1,149 comments) says:

    Albert
    By saying I don’t believe in the AGW theory, I was just putting my “cards on the table”.( So yes I don’t think we should have either tax) . My original question was not really intended to be about the difference between and ETS and a Carbon Tax. It was more about questioning the logic of what Norman is saying. I seriously believe they are confused in what they are saying.

    BTW. They did say all businesses would get a 1% reduction in company tax –sorry I cannot find the article I read it in. (They also say they accept the increases in costs will be passed in their prices). But if I have misunderstood them, then they would be proposing different tax rates for different companies. The accountants would love that and there would be all sorts of scams going on to get the better rates.

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  81. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    I’m not saying that Muslims are all saints. I’m saying that it is almost always best to treat people on a case-by-case basis, and that it is unfair to tar whole populations of people with the same brush because of the actions of a minority or even a majority of them.

    Another statistical analogy. Tarring all Muslims with the actions of a group of 3570 Muslims is the equivalent of tarring all Catholic priests with the actions of one.

    Ok, since you’re enjoying the statistics, try working this one out: the equivalent number of Catholic priest suicide bombers that should have existed by now, given that Muslim actions have nothing to do with their culture or religion. To help you along, there are approx 400,000 Catholic priests worldwide.

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  82. Scott Chris (5,881 comments) says:

    Something a bit light hearted to start the day.

    Heh, good one Gazzmaniac. The “suppository of all wisdom” remark is a classic.

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  83. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    What I experienced from the Muslim males is unique. Western males know the boundaries with women, and even though some of them will cross those boundaries, they at least know that they are doing so. No strange Western male has ever approached me in a train station and has seriously asked me if I would come home with him for money. Western men tend to know that such an approach would be intimidating and inappropriate, especially if the women in question is not dressed as a hooker. No Western male has ever acted like a complete and utter arsehole in a business setting in order to get my attention, and then when he gets it, turns on the charm.

    The context is for all of this is this impression that many Muslim men have is that Western women are sluts, and therefore they will treat them like that. Apparently they have this impression because we don’t clothe ourselves in sacks.

    I hear what you’re saying. You use “Western” and “Muslim” as if they’re mutually exclusive terms. Do you have any experience of Muslim Western men?

    It’s some of it, but ultimately there is this underlying belief that you and Mike have is that people who are raised in a radically different culture from us are just like us. That their religion is harmless, that it’s only the bad people who give it a bad name. And, I kind of agree, because everyone to some extent knows right from wrong – except their religion is not harmless, far from it.

    I’m not saying that everyone is “just like us” in the sense of being identical. There are obviously cultural differences. What I said in this thread was that a reasonable person would not consider it fair to describe a massive group of people as “vile” and “foul” on the basis of the actions of some of them. Even if those people in that tourist town were in fact “vile” and “foul”, there are many Muslims who are not “vile” and “foul”, and it seems slightly ridiculous to even have to make that point.

    When surveys have been done of Muslim nations, the numbers of people who think that apostates should be killed is a measure of how fanatical that population is. Apparently very high in Egypt (80% or so) and very low in Turkey (less than 5%).

    The poor Christian woman in Sudan is on death row because of this very widespread belief in Muslim countries that apostates should be killed. I don’t know if Sudan was ever surveyed, but my guess is that a high percentage of the population there supports death for apostasy. Which puts the government there in a bit of a situation, as, if they are lenient, maybe the population will take out their anger against the politicians, as they have done in Pakistan when some politicians were trying to change the blasphemy laws (they were murdered).

    There was a very nice, quiet Pakistani family in Auckland just recently (most likely Muslim, but you never know). The mother and the teenage daughter were stabbed and it seems the father has been taken away by police. Maybe you’d consider the family lovely people, if you’d known them?

    There was a Westerner man in the States a few weeks back who murdered a bunch of people because women wouldn’t have sex with him. Maybe you’d consider him a lovely person, if you’d known him?

    I never said that all Muslims are saints. I never said that Muslims never commit crimes. And I never said that Pakistan, Sudan, etc., were delightful places to live.

    All I am saying is that it is unfair to describe all Muslims as “vile” and “foul” by virtue of the actions of some Muslims when there are clear examples of people who are Muslim and are not vile and foul.

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  84. ross411 (220 comments) says:

    David Cunliffe said, as Immigration Minister, in the 2006 Immigration Act Review Discussion Paper:

    Globally, immigration is changing. People are becoming more mobile, often not settling in
    one place for a long time – which is contributing to increasingly diverse communities. It
    means we also have to be at the top of our game to respond to international competition
    to attract skilled and talented people.

    I wonder how this relates to his leading of Labour and it’s current policy in this area.

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  85. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    There was a Westerner man in the States a few weeks back who murdered a bunch of people because women wouldn’t have sex with him. Maybe you’d consider him a lovely person, if you’d known him?

    I doubt it, as his peers were interviewed and they found him to be “creepy”.

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  86. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Ok, since you’re enjoying the statistics, try working this one out: the equivalent number of Catholic priest suicide bombers that should have existed by now, given that Muslim actions have nothing to do with their culture or religion. To help you along, there are approx 400,000 Catholic priests worldwide.

    Sure thing.

    There have been 1200 suicide attacks in the last 33 years. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that they were all carried out by Muslims (90% took place in Iraq, Israel, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Sri Lanka). There are 1.5 billion Muslims. That means 0.00008% of Muslims carry out suicide attacks.

    With 400,000 Catholic priests in the world, we should have… just under one-third of a suicide attack by a Catholic priest.

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  87. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproul can say what he likes but once they reach a critical mass they act en masse. The Trojan Horse scandal in the UK schools and Tower Hamlets are two current cases in point.All been covered here ,many a time.

    But then he knows that but chooses to ignore the facts.

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  88. Scott Chris (5,881 comments) says:

    I found them to be a miserable lot , always scowling, eyeballing us or ignoring us , you could feel hate oozing out of them.

    Sure you weren’t just looking in a mirror laj?

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  89. Zapper (926 comments) says:

    “Let’s say you met 375 Muslims and they were all just awful people and you decided on that basis that all Muslims are terrible.

    Statistically, that’s the equivalent of meeting just one awful New Zealander and deciding that all New Zealanders are awful.”

    Holy cow, that is the worst understanding of statistics I have ever heard.

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  90. Zapper (926 comments) says:

    “Another statistical analogy. Tarring all Muslims with the actions of a group of 3570 Muslims is the equivalent of tarring all Catholic priests with the actions of one.”

    Sorry, make that equal worst.

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  91. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Just trying to convey just how many Muslims there are out there, Zapper, going about their lives, not beheading anyone.

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  92. david (2,539 comments) says:

    From the Parliament website
    Quote
    New Zealand MP attends seminar in Tanzania
    This week MP Asenati Lole-Taylor also took part in a CPA event, travelling to Dar es Salaam in Tanzania for the association’s 25th CPA Parliamentary Seminar, from 25 to 31 May.

    The Commonwealth Parliamentary Seminar is an annual event that focuses on parliamentary practice and procedure. It involves an intensive programme, allowing MPs to engage with international colleagues on these and other parliamentary matters.

    The CPA is an international community of parliaments and legislatures working together to deepen the Commonwealth’s knowledge and understanding of and commitment to democratic governance. It seeks to build an informed parliamentary community and to enhance co-operation between its parliaments and legislatures. CPA membership provides the opportunity for New Zealand members of Parliament to participate in a number of annual CPA activities.
    end of quote

    Of all the blatant oxygen thieves that infest our Parliament, this one takes the cake. One has to conclude that the CPA is treated as a bit of a joke and a sop to precious souls who will never make a substantial mark on the progress of our beautiful country.

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  93. Zapper (926 comments) says:

    That may be the case Ryan. But of the beheadings and stonings and gang rapes and suicide bombings, who are committing the most?

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  94. Albert_Ross (249 comments) says:

    Ross12, the whole point of a carbon tax is absolutely to charge different rates on different businesses. Businesses which emit more carbon, pay more tax. If you pay the same amount of tax regardless of how much carbon you emit, then that is not a carbon tax at all.

    It’s not inconsistent with that, to take the money raised from those polluting businesses and redistribute it to /all/ businesses via a flat-rate rebate – it will still be the case that businesses which don’t emit much carbon will be better off than will carbon-intensive businesses. Effectively, carbon-intensive businesses will subsidise others.

    Supposing David wanted to discourage people from calling themselves Ross – he could implement a Ross-tax and take $100 from you and another $100 from Ross Taylor, etc. He might then introduce a rebate and divide the $200 equally between you, me, Taylor, himself and another, let’s say Dan Carter. The rebate has the same effect on everybody – we each get $40 – but the tax does not – that hits you and Ross Taylor harder than the rest of us. So the tax and the rebate have different policy purposes – the tax encourages you and Taylor to change your name, the rebate encourages the rest of us to vote for it.

    You are absolutely right that some businesses will think it more worthwhile to employ tax accountants and lawyers in order to avoid paying the tax, in preference to reducing their carbon emissions in order to avoid paying the tax. As with all taxes, that is an argument for keeping it as simple and clear as possible.

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  95. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    zapper

    ‘Holy cow’

    Now don’t be bringing Hinduism into this,it’s pretty complex as it is!

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  96. Gulag1917 (659 comments) says:

    “how many Muslims there are out there, Zapper, going about their lives, not beheading anyone”
    Going about their own lives not doing anything to stop the beheadings.

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  97. Longknives (4,464 comments) says:

    This is without a shadow of a doubt the best thing I have read all year-

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11266262

    “I’ll buy a one way first-class ticket for Minto to shift to Yemen or North West Pakistan on whose unasked behalf he purported to represent in his latest attention-seeking episode, bawling outside the PM’s home.
    Furthermore, I’ll throw in a weekly stipend although I suspect only one payment will be needed as he will quickly be minus his head.. “

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  98. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    That may be the case Ryan. But of the beheadings and stonings and gang rapes

    Rural, often impoverished Muslims…

    and suicide bombings, who are committing the most?

    …and Muslims in countries occupied by foreign militaries.

    Fair point, but the fact that these acts are perpetrated by Muslims in some situations and not by Muslims in other situations suggests that being Muslim does not, in itself, turn someone into a decapitating gang-rapist in a suicide-bomb vest.

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  99. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    “how many Muslims there are out there, Zapper, going about their lives, not beheading anyone”
    Going about their own lives not doing anything to stop the beheadings.

    Gulag,

    Do you feel accountable for the actions of other people who claim to be the same religion as you? What do you do to prevent them from committing crimes?

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  100. Redbaiter (7,632 comments) says:

    Knowing how Libertarians support mass migration and open borders, are any from the UK able to tell me how many Muslims they have converted to their cause?

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  101. Zapper (926 comments) says:

    I agree Ryan, not every muslim is destined to be a criminal or terrorist. But the fact that so many do end up that way is surely worthy of comment? Unless you claim that being Muslim is not the common link – the Qu’ran would say otherwise though.

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  102. Odakyu-sen (441 comments) says:

    On a different note: A wasted driver crashes in Onehunga, bringing down high-tension lines on his car.

    Sergeant Paul Simcox was the police serious crash unit officer at the scene and said investigations showed the car was travelling between 118 km/h and 122 km/h when it crashed. Neilson Street has a 50 km/h speed limit.
    He told the inquest speed and alcohol were factors in the crash.
    Outside the inquest, Mr Tuporo’s mother Glenda Olsen said she hoped the inquest would answer questions she had about her son’s death. “Somebody has to be held accountable,” she said. “I want to see justice for my son.”

    Help me out please. Guy (drunk). Crashes car and brings down power lines that pose a danger to rescue services. For this delay in getting the power company to isolate the lines at 4:40 a.m., someone “has to be held accountable” and there has to be “justice for my son.”

    Who should be accountable? a) the police? b) the ambulance service? c) the power company? d) rescue service control? Have I forgotten any other party who just might possibly have prevented this death?

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  103. Scott (1,707 comments) says:

    Sure not all Moslems are terrorists. When I was living in Auckland a few years ago we had Muslim neighbours and very nice they were too.

    However with 20,000 terrorist attacks by Moslems since 911 I think we can safely conclude that there is a problem right now with Muslim terrorism.

    And the fact of the matter is that Islam demands that everybody submit themselves to Allah and if they won’t submit themselves they should be either killed or forced to submit and to live their lives as 2nd class citizens.
    So myself and many other people believe that the problem is not with individuals but with the religion they follow. Moslems sincerely believe that Muhamed has given us the definitive guide to life, the Koran, which gives them the right and obligation and duty to destroy every other system of government and every other religion.

    It has been this way from the beginning. Islam was always a religion that made converts either by persuasion or by military force.Mohammed was a military leader.

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  104. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    I agree Ryan, not every muslim is destined to be a criminal or terrorist. But the fact that so many do end up that way is surely worthy of comment?

    We’ve already established that the fact is, proportionately, exceedingly few do end up that way.

    You changed the discussion to “the fact that so many terrorists are Muslim”, which is worthy of comment, and so I commented.

    Unless you claim that being Muslim is not the common link – the Qu’ran would say otherwise though.

    It reminds me a bit of that line: “That there are no atheists in a foxhole is not an argument against atheism; it is an argument against foxholes.”

    Being Muslim is demonstratively not a sufficient condition for someone to become a criminal or a terrorist. A Muslim on planet earth is exceedingly unlikely to be a terrorist. Other conditions or combinations of conditions are obviously required for someone, Muslim or not, to become a terrorist.

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  105. Gulag1917 (659 comments) says:

    Ryan
    hi If I see injustice I am conscience bound to correct it often defined as a sin of omission if no attempt is made. e.g.
    Problem; US foreign policy is contributing to the increased persecution of Christians.
    Solution stop US foreign interference which is destabilising nations which leads to the persecution.
    http://www.infowars.com/why-does-christian-persecution-get-worse-in-every-country-the-u-s-liberates/
    The Christian Right in the USA are ironically a major contributor to this. Thankfully Christians in NZ and elsewhere out of the US are often quite resistant to supporting the US in its nation destabilising/remaking. Still a long way to go yet.

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  106. Zapper (926 comments) says:

    Ryan, the proportion you should be looking at, instead of violating the laws of statistics, is the proportion of terrorists who are Muslims, not the other way round.

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  107. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Ryan, the proportion you should be looking at, instead of violating the laws of statistics, is the proportion of terrorists who are Muslims, not the other way round.

    I did look at that, and addressed it. Then you said…

    not every muslim is destined to be a criminal or terrorist. But the fact that so many do end up that way is surely worthy of comment?

    “The fact that so many do end up that way” is suggesting that a high proportion of Muslims are terrorists, rather than that a high proportion of terrorists are Muslims, which we’ve agreed is not true.

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  108. Odakyu-sen (441 comments) says:

    “Let’s say you met 375 Muslims and they were all just awful people and you decided on that basis that all Muslims are terrible. Statistically, that’s the equivalent of meeting just one awful New Zealander and deciding that all New Zealanders are awful.”

    Actually, n=375 is a pretty good sample size. You can get up to all kinds of mischief with a sample that large.

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  109. Gulag1917 (659 comments) says:

    Kiwiblog should get in the action and start its own political party.

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  110. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    Want to make a start on some political principles you think all Kiwibloggers would subscribe to?

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  111. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Want to make a start on some political principles you think all Kiwibloggers would subscribe to?

    Nationwide ban on arguments about God or 9/11.

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  112. Gulag1917 (659 comments) says:

    mikenmild
    That would require some true diplomacy.

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  113. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “Kiwiblog should get in the action and start its own political party.”

    As opposed to the National Party which accepts Chinese bribery???????????

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  114. Left Right and Centre (2,821 comments) says:

    Sugar nazis strike !!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/10101772/Obesity-fight-sees-lollies-banned-at-hospital

    Here’s some ideas to trial: (1) Sugary drinks in their own vending machine hooked up to a treadmill. When you hit 5kms – Ga-doosh !! You get your nasty evil sugar concoction.

    (2) Trained staff assess physical state of customer before a sale of product kept locked behind counter. Yep – you’re ok – here’s your Fanta you skinny little stick man – enjoy !!

    (3) Vending machine hooked up to scales.

    (4) Swipe cards for healthy weight range people.

    These idiots scare me . . .

    Martin Gallagher said the changes to what was stocked in the machines would soon be accepted and it would likely not be long before the wider community followed suit.

    “It’s like smoking in pubs. I think we are making a good start.

    “This is just like the fluoride issue. It’s about what’s good for the public’s health,” Gallagher said.

    “It’s about prolonging lives and potentially saving lives.”

    No – it’s not like smoking in pubs. I’m not blowing soft drink in someone’s face. No – it’s not like fluoride. You can buy one soft drink while in hospital and that’s fine. Wider community ? Like – all the shops that sell soft drink and make how much money out of it ? Yeah – they don’t mind making less money I’m sure. Good one clowns.

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  115. Odakyu-sen (441 comments) says:

    I put it to you that for terrorism to happen, you need more than one risk factor. What could some risk factors be?

    1. A religion that says “a righteous man does _____” / “If you do ______ you will be rewarded in paradise.” / ______ are unclean.” etc
    2. A political ideology that says “______ are the bad guys” / “it is okay to _____ in order to achieve ______, etc.
    3. A culture in which your society and the people in your family enthusiastically support factors 1 or 2 above (or both)
    4. A culture that sanctions the kind of behavior advocated in 1 or 2 or both.

    In the West, although Christians have risk factor 1 in their Old Testament, their cultural values (it’s not nice to kill people/must obey the law of the land) will generally prevent them from going any further.
    Individuals in a culture that treats some of its members as chattels or believes outsiders are sub-human animals probably don’t have the “inhibiting factors” holding them back from carrying out extreme religious/political acts.

    Any thoughts?

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  116. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    National accepts Chinese bribery fraudulence

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  117. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “Nationwide ban on arguments about God or 9/11.”

    No argument. 9/11 was an inside job.

    2 planes, 3 buildings

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  118. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    I don’t think that’s an exhaustive list, Odakyu-sen, but I think it’s heading in the right direction, for sure.

    I think a certain level of desperation is a risk factor too.

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  119. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    “Nationwide ban on arguments about God or 9/11.”

    No argument. 9/11 was an inside job.

    2 planes, 3 buildings

    What have I doooooooooone!?

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  120. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    I think Odakyu-sen is trying to imply that Christians are unlikely to engage in terrorism.

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  121. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “What have I doooooooooone!?”

    Someone denying 3 buildings did not go down on 9/11 when 3 buildings did go down.

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  122. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    The National Party accepted Chinese bribery

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  123. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    I tink there is a case for not allowing religious freedom. Take Islam: I saw on a discussion where a Muslim was decrying someones quoting some of the worst bits of the Koran. He said that that written when going into battle and they were special circumstance and so didn't apply. O.k so clarify the text before your religion is allowed, or you are allowed to immigrate.

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  124. aquataur (50 comments) says:

    Another contender for a Darwin award

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11266767

    His mother ‘wants justice for her son’ – I think he did get justice – if any-one was to die, I am glad it was him that passed away – not an innocent bystander !

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  125. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    I think Odakyu-sen is trying to imply that Christians are unlikely to engage in terrorism.

    He’s right. Almost no Christians engage in terrorism.

    All of this, of course, is contingent on one’s definition of terrorism.

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  126. mikenmild (10,744 comments) says:

    As the occasional protesters in front of Parliament remind us, ‘War is Terrorism’.

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  127. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    I think Odakyu-sen is trying to imply that Christians are unlikely to engage in terrorism.
    ….
    I think Islam has more overt calls to violence against non believers. You can find the same in Christianity but mainly in the old testament.

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  128. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    As the occasional protesters in front of Parliament remind us, ‘War is Terrorism’.

    Certainly, though even if you don’t agree to that definition, there’s always, “Christians are more likely to illegally invade foreign countries resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians.”

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  129. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Now, most Christians don’t illegally invade foreign countries resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians, but the people who do are extremely likely to be Christian, and that demands an explanation.

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  130. Odakyu-sen (441 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    It’s just something I cobbled together.

    Mikenmild (do you prefer the lower-case “m”?) (I can’t help myself. Capitalization matters to me. Japanese doesn’t have capitalization. Sorry, I digress.)

    Mikenmild. Depends which Christian group you are referring to. If Rwandan Christians, then cultural factor 3 could come into play in some massacres. (Also depends on your definition of “Christian”.) Similar variation will exist in the muslim populations, ranging to relatively bell-pepper mild (say, 1,000 units on the Scoville scale for Turkish muslims) all the way to Saudi Wahabi Wasabi of 350,000 heat units) (we’re talking Habanero territory here, son).

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  131. Odakyu-sen (441 comments) says:

    Here’s something silly (albeit spicy).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSzgNRzpjo8

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  132. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    That is very silly. I feel silly for laughing at it.

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  133. Odakyu-sen (441 comments) says:

    Totally silly.

    The best part is the chorus that starts at 0:47. Sing along with me, now: “It burns, burns, burns, ….

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  134. hj (6,359 comments) says:

    Islam and Violence
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence

    Hacks me off when commentators start by praising “true” _. As if relegions (might not be) the product of a demented raver.

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  135. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    I never said that all Muslims are saints. I never said that Muslims never commit crimes. And I never said that Pakistan, Sudan, etc., were delightful places to live.

    All I am saying is that it is unfair to describe all Muslims as “vile” and “foul” by virtue of the actions of some Muslims when there are clear examples of people who are Muslim and are not vile and foul.

    Actually, you’ve said quite a lot more than that, however, I would agree with your premise that it is unfair, if that was the extent of the original commenter’s knowledge of Muslims, as I originally said when we two started interacting on this topic.

    I personally think that Islam is vile and foul, with enough good stuff to attract people. Most Muslims can’t help being Muslim, as they are born into the faith, and apostasy is more or less, depending on the country, punishable by death. Often by family members, if the state isn’t interested. Any religion that punishes apostasy as part of it’s creed by death, is vile and foul.

    I do know Muslims that are very nice people. Not many, granted, but enough to know that Muslims as a whole are not vile and foul. But, everyone knows that there is always an exception to the rule. To stake your claim in the group over the some, many or all argument is silly, I think, because it doesn’t allow for acknowledgement of genuine threat from people of a particular belief system.

    I see the thread has moved on into terrorism. Yes, terrorism is relatively rare, I agree, but it does strike fear into populations, and the terrorism we are all hearing about right now is Islamic terrorism. Our airport security has increased because of Islamic terrorism. It’s not an insignificant threat – if you follow the news, you’ll see various foiled plots of Muslims to attack various places. A sign that our intelligence agencies are alert to who is a threat, even though at airports, they like to pick people like me to scan for various bomb making equipment.

    I think there would be no harm from Islamic immigration if our faith in the West was strong, and conversion rates from Islam to Christianity were high. Because where else should it be safe for Muslims to convert?

    Anyway, I asked about the number of Catholic priests who might exist, if there was any correlation in numbers between Islamic suicide bombers and other types. But there’s no correlation – it’s a stupid comparison. That was really my point in response to this comment of yours:

    Another statistical analogy. Tarring all Muslims with the actions of a group of 3570 Muslims is the equivalent of tarring all Catholic priests with the actions of one.

    As for your question:

    I hear what you’re saying. You use “Western” and “Muslim” as if they’re mutually exclusive terms. Do you have any experience of Muslim Western men?

    No, I don’t.

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  136. Manolo (13,375 comments) says:

    The minimum wage will ruin this city: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/03/seattle-council-passes-15-minimum-wage/

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  137. Fletch (6,026 comments) says:

    How well can you spell? I got 85% – I think some simple things do trip me up :)

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/lifestyle/spelling-bee/

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  138. wiseowl (763 comments) says:

    Ryan S.
    For some more balance on climate matters.
    climatedepot.com or nzclimatescience.net.nz

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  139. Steve (North Shore) (4,499 comments) says:

    Geez Kiwiblog died at 7.18.
    It is now 9.12.
    I did not get an invite to the party you all went to – shame

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  140. wat dabney (3,672 comments) says:

    I personally think that Islam is vile and foul, with enough good stuff to attract people.

    And exactly the same for Christianity of course.

    A theocracy truly based on biblical principles would be as vile as any Islam theocracy.

    There would be stonings in every town in the land every weekend.

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  141. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    How well can you spell? I got 85% – I think some simple things do trip me up :)

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/lifestyle/spelling-bee/

    Boom! 100%!

    But I guessed on gist/jist.

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  142. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Anyway, I asked about the number of Catholic priests who might exist, if there was any correlation in numbers between Islamic suicide bombers and other types. But there’s no correlation – it’s a stupid comparison.

    It seemed an awful lot like you thought that if the same rates of suicide bombers among Muslims were applied to Catholic priests, there would be a number greater than 1, and we could all point to that as an example of how Muslims are so terroristy, given that there are no Catholic priest suicide bombers.

    I actually had no idea that the number would be so low when I started doing the comparison. I was getting ready to find out if any Catholic priests were involved in IRA bombings and getting ready to talk about how there aren’t whole populations of Catholic priests under occupation by foreign invaders, etc.

    I personally think that Islam is vile and foul, with enough good stuff to attract people.

    That’s a different thing from saying that Muslims are vile and foul. You said at 12.15 that it’s only bigotry if Muslims’ beliefs are being disparaged, rather than the people. I’m inclined to think the opposite. By all means, believe and express that Islam is vile and foul. But I was originally responding to someone who, on the authority of 10 days in Thailand, declared all Muslim people vile and foul.

    And we know that Islam doesn’t make people vile and foul, as you and I both know Muslims who are perfectly lovely. And we know that Islam isn’t required for someone to be vile and foul, as you and I both know non-Muslims who are horrible arseholes.

    I think that bigotry is closely linked with prejudgement. If I make judgements about someone based on knowledge of some characteristic that is not essentially causally linked with my judgement, I’m being unfair on them. Whether they’re Muslim, Christian, atheist, Maori, gay, a Nat, a cop, a prostitute, whatever – if I believe some kind of blanket judgement about all people of that “type” without learning the facts of the individual, I’m being unfair.

    That doesn’t stop it being very possible that almost every man from a given country’s culture has views of women that are jarringly at odds with modern Western political correctness. I apologise if I appeared flippant regarding that earlier.

    I think there would be no harm from Islamic immigration if our faith in the West was strong, and conversion rates from Islam to Christianity were high. Because where else should it be safe for Muslims to convert?

    Obviously, I’m not worried about how many Muslims do or do not convert to Christianity. But in general, when I think about immigration, I think of the immigrants’ kids, growing up Kiwi. They don’t have to convert away from their religion to be shaped by our culture as they grow up here, possibly very different from the culture of their parents’ countries of origin.

    As I said, there are Western Muslims, just as there are Western Christians. And there are non-Western countries whose cultures give rise to what we would consider very sexist Christian men indeed.

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  143. kowtow (7,634 comments) says:

    Yep those sons of Muslim immigrants make the best, most integrated citizens……..

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2644895/The-British-Bin-Laden-House-Fraser-trainee-unmasked-sadistic-Al-Qaeda-killer.html

    Good night.

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  144. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    I have more faith in the integrative power of Kiwi culture than in that of British culture, Kowtow.

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  145. SGA (813 comments) says:

    wat dabney at 9:23 pm

    There would be stonings in every town in the land every weekend.

    Is now Wat, every day in fact :-)

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  146. Left Right and Centre (2,821 comments) says:

    I have more faith in the integrative power of Kiwi culture than in that of British culture, Kowtow.

    Same weirdos, different country.

    They see it as ‘planet muslim’ mate. They don’t give a fuck about ‘NZ’.

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  147. Manolo (13,375 comments) says:

    Hero or traitor?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2647397/Revealed-Bowe-Bergdahl-left-note-comrades-telling-leaving-start-new-life-Army-general-says-faces-desertion-charges.html

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  148. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Same weirdos, different country.

    They see it as ‘planet muslim’ mate. They don’t give a fuck about ‘NZ’.

    Even if that were true, it wouldn’t be true of the children who grow up in NZ schools with NZ friends.

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  149. Left Right and Centre (2,821 comments) says:

    Ryan – What I see in NZ and a lot of other countries is people coming in who separate off into their own little communities and that’s it. I know exactly what you’re saying – and I’ve seen that too. It’s a sliding scale and some become very kiwi and some don’t – and some it’s a deliberate attempt to remain and retain their own identity while rejecting as much as possible that of the country they’ve moved to. They’re not interested in NZ some of them – they just happen to be here.

    I often here PIs saying ‘that’s the way we do things’ etc – hello ? They’re not in the fuckin islands anymore. What happens when big numbers come in is that they don’t need to bother with ‘outsiders’.

    I just don’t want to hear this cultural harmony horsecrap – that’s all.

    I hear Asian parents speaking with their kids – in Mandarin. In their own language. You wonder if they’re migrants or colonists ? These nice white dipshits are going to let us have more of planet earth – cool !! You’ll notice more and more ‘Asianisation’ of Auckland.

    I’ve never understood why NZ wanted to bring in Asians en masse . . . ???? If I loved Asian fobs I’d fuck off to Asia, wouldn’t I ? So that I could be a white fob surrounded by zillions of them. I don’t remember voting for Auckland and Wellington to be stacked high with fobs. I’ll be honest – I don’t enjoy walking around Wellington CBD when every second humanoid now is a weirdo fresh as a daisy five minute fob. Lydia Ko ? Remote is in my hand and it’s a race to flick the channel when she comes on the sports news. She aint a fucking kiwi. Like some of these import rugby players struggling to speak English at the level of a five year old. Yeah – terrific.

    The Maori didn’t have any choice about whites taking over. Whites did have a choice who comes in. So – which ones are the mugs ?

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