General Debate 4 June 2014

June 4th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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204 Responses to “General Debate 4 June 2014”

  1. Pete George (23,415 comments) says:

    On Firstline this morning David Cunliffe said “in the the first 100 days of a government I lead we will introduce legislation” to remove coat tailing from the electoral act.

    That’s a blast at Internet-MANA (and could get interesting if they go into coalition with Labour).

    And it would be highly hypocritical if Labour was seen to do any electorate deal with Hone Harawira in Te Tai Tokerau.

    Cunliffe promises to legislate against coat-tailing

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  2. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    If ,as our PM,and other members of the permanent political class declare,we are a multicultural society,then there is no need for immigrants to “integrate”.

    Aotearoa formerly New Zealand ,simply becomes a state made up of dozens of different ethnicities and cultures with nothing to unite it or give cohesion , identity or loyalty to.

    Great idea John,I don’t think you’ve thought that one through .But it sounds good ,to some.

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  3. Lindsay Addie (1,289 comments) says:

    Chris Trotter has been thinking out loud what some of us know already “Labour is in denial”.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/columnists/chris-trotter/10111979/Labour-in-denial-on-election

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  4. All_on_Red (1,540 comments) says:

    DPF, you like statistics. What do you make of this? Shonky huh.

    Are 97% of scientists really in agreement on climate change? Don’t bet on it.
    It is the season of commencement addresses. A season when a generation with one foot in the grave offers advice to a generation with one foot in the nursery. A season of platitudes and conventional wisdom. A season of warm self-congratulation and fuzzy wisdom.
    So when US secretary of state John Kerry told graduates at Boston College on 19 May that there is a scientific consensus on climate change, you wouldn’t expect him to footnote his sources. But he seized upon a specific figure – that 97 per cent of the world’s scientists believe that climate change threatens the future of the planet – and projected it as the Gospel truth.
    His boss, President Barack Obama, was even more trenchant in his description of the problem. In a tweet on 17 May, he said: ‘Ninety-seven per cent of scientists agree: #climate change is real, manmade and dangerous. Read more: OFA.BO/gJsdFp.’
    Ninety-seven per cent is a very specific number. Where does it come from?
    Happily, Mr Obama did footnote his source: an article published last year in the journal Environmental Research Letters written by an Australian scientist at the University of Queensland, John Cook, and several colleagues. They were even more specific: ‘97.1 per cent [of scientists] endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming.’
    Based on this article (and some others), the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the world’s largest non-government general science membership organisation and the publisher of Science, a leading scientific journal, has launched a campaign, ‘What We Know’, to convince the public that there is virtual unanimity among scientists.
    I have little doubt that many scientists agree that climate change is (a) real and (b) caused by man (anthropogenic). But do 97 per cent of them really agree on both propositions? Let’s do a reality check here. On what issue do academics reach 97 per cent agreement other than that they are being underpaid? That the sun will rise tomorrow? No, some of them will say, because the sun doesn’t rise; the earth revolves. No, because we can only assert that it is probable, not certain. No, because we might be living in a multiverse where the sun will not rise on 28 May, etc, etc.
    Let’s examine how Cook et al reached this very precise figure.
    First, they searched the abstracts of 11,944 articles in peer-reviewed journals from the years 1991 to 2011 which included the terms ‘global climate change’ or ‘global warming’. At the very least, then, their conclusion is three or four years out of date.
    Second, they sorted the abstracts into four piles: no position on anthropogenic global warming, endorsement, rejection and uncertainty. The biggest pile (66.4 per cent) was no position. Of the smaller piles which did express an opinion, 97.1 per cent ‘endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming’.
    This already sounds a bit odd. This is not what the public understands by a consensus. Mr and Mrs Average are entitled to imagine that 97.1 per cent agreement means that 97.1 per cent of scientists voted on a ballot proposal. But no one ever voted. Instead, volunteers recruited from the Skeptical Science website winnowed the articles and interpreted the often arcane language of scientific abstracts. Since the slogan of this website is ‘rebutting global warming misinformation’, the volunteers’ interpretations were bound to be skewed in favour of the ‘consensus’.
    Aware of this problem, Cook et al sought the opinions of the authors themselves. This could be construed as a kind of ballot measure. There were 29,083 authors listed on the 11,944 papers. Of these, only 8,547 were sent an email asking for their opinion. Of these, only 1,189 responded. Using this method, Cook and his team found that an even higher proportion of them agreed that climate change was real and man-caused – 97.2 per cent. But notice that only four per cent of the authors ‘voted’. A ballot measure with a four per cent turnout is not what Mr and Mrs Average mean by a ‘consensus’.
    Finally, Obama rashly added the word ‘dangerous’ to his tweet. Not even Cook and his colleagues from Skeptical Science dared to assert that 97 per cent of scientists believe that global warming is ‘dangerous’. Perhaps many of them do, but exactly how many is known only to God and Barack Obama.
    Scientists and politicians do themselves no favours when they use shoddy statistics and public relations flim-flam to sell scientific hypotheses to the public. Sooner or later Mr and Mrs Average will wake up to the fact that they have been manipulated. The backlash could be quite nasty.
    Of course, the shenanigans of spinmeisters do not disprove the reality of global warming. It may be happening. It may be dangerous. It may be the greatest moral challenge of our generation. But it remains to be proved that there is a scientific consensus on any of those propositions.
    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/global-warming-the-97-fallacy/15069#.U4kb2CjNwVk

    Lies, damned lies and statistics! When will Russell Norman start being honest with the New Zealand people?

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  5. flipper (3,905 comments) says:

    kowtow (7,072 comments) says:

    June 4th, 2014 at 8:13 am

    If ,as our PM,and other members of the permanent political class declare,we are a multicultural society
    ****

    Does not “multicultural ” accurately describe NZ circa 2014?

    There was a time not too long ago when the economic and socio think tank of which I was part of the support staff, described NZ as a bi-cultural society. We had many in house scraps over those words, but in the end, some years later, “multi” prevailed over “bi”.

    En passant, how would you (et al) describe US of A????

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  6. Pdubyah (20 comments) says:

    hahahah”When will Russell Norman start being honest with the New Zealand people”

    comedy golden in 12 words

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  7. Odakyu-sen (553 comments) says:

    If the immigrants are not to integrate, then what shall they do? Form enclaves or ghettos?

    Does anyone know what a multicultural society is?

    Lets discuss the relationship between culture and state
    What are the obligations of a culture to the state surrounding it?
    What are the obligations of a state to the culture/cultures within it?
    What are the obligations of multiple cultures to each other within the state?

    “Multicultural” is like that word “internationalization” (kokusai-ka) that was all the rage back in Japan in the 1980s. Everybody in Japan had heard the word “internationalization,” (it was all over the TV and newspapers) but absolutely no-one had any idea of what it really meant in practice. That’s the great thing about these kinds of words: because they refer to processes in time, no-one can see the future so no-one knows how the process is going to end up.

    And if you can’t tell where the driver (the government) is taking you, then the taxi could be going anywhere and you would never know.

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  8. SPC (5,531 comments) says:

    Pete, does Cunliffe have NZ First backing for this policy?

    And if Labour requires support from Dunne or the Maori Party or Internet Mana to govern, what then?

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  9. Ed Snack (1,826 comments) says:

    Yes, an interesting approach, unilateral changes to the electoral act from a party at around 30% in the polls. Sounds legit.

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  10. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    The unmasking of another of Stephanie’s heroes: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2647407/Blair-tragic-egomaniac-never-forgiven-turning-Britain-claims-former-friend-Robert-Harris.html

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  11. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    Flapper

    “E pluribus unum” sums it up very nicely.

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  12. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    Odyaku

    Taxi driver? Yep,that skills category benefits Aotearoa no end.

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  13. Scott Chris (6,008 comments) says:

    A tourist makes a tragic mistake and accidentally kills 3 people. So the media follow the poor bastard around and parade him on national television as if he were Hannibal Lecter.

    Fucking vultures.

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  14. Scott Chris (6,008 comments) says:

    And it would be highly hypocritical if Labour was seen to do any electorate deal

    Labour criticising electoral deal-making is highly hypocritical in view of the fact that they were the first to practice it.

    Was Cunners part of the government at the time and if so, did he speak up against it?

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  15. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    We need multiculturalism or the construction sector will collapse; it’s a cancer.

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  16. G152 (260 comments) says:

    Having driven in other countries I found the trick to not having accidents was to concentrate on what I was doing where I was.
    Its very easy to get distracted.

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  17. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    What the fuck is difficult about following the extremely simple direction on a clearly marked ,visible red sign, STOP?

    I reckon if you refuse to stop at a stop sign and kill someone then you should be up for manslaughter.

    “Tragic mistake”? “Accident” ? Fuck that.

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  18. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    BTW

    Aotearoan and Dutch “STOP” signs are identical.

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  19. All_on_Red (1,540 comments) says:

    Scott
    Agree with you. 30 seconds of inattention and all those lives ruined. What a tragedy. It’s in marked contrast to the speeding drunk who killed himself and the lack of examination given to his mother demands of “justice”!
    The Dutch guy will be held accountable- as he should. So should the drunk in Onehunga.

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  20. alloytoo (518 comments) says:

    Seems to me that the Green’s carbon tax is merely a cynical tax on energy producers (and ultimately the consumer) which does absolutely nothing to realistically address climate change, but rather promotes socialist redistributive policies.

    Want to halt CO2 emissions?

    Make electricity cheaper and more convenient than petrol, use your carbon taxes to build nuclear power stations.

    Genetically engineer plants to absorb more carbon (preferably as fast growing wood).

    Unfortunately the Greens are ideologically apposed to both very real solutions.

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  21. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    It could be that it wasn’t the stop sign he saw but the intersection. You don’t see the stop sign ’till you see the intersection and the Canterbury plain is flat. If your mind is way off wandering it it possible to not see a hazard.
    One example where that sort of thing can happen is the Kingston Crossing Road in Southland where it joins the Lumsden Gore Highway. The road joins on a curve and the curve slopes away from the viewer.

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  22. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    Drive to the conditions.Slow down for intersections.Too simple.

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  23. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    Fox News Contributor Behind PR Campaign For Soldiers Critical Of Bowe Bergdahl
    Blog ››› 3 hours and 17 minutes ago ››› OLIVER WILLIS

    The Fox and Republican led plot and smear campaign congeals ,

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/06/03/fox-news-contributor-behind-pr-campaign-for-sol/199565

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  24. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    The danger is having a hazard in front of you (in your vision) and not seeing it. Not unable to see it but seeing it and not reacting (fluff in the brain) a bus driver once killed a cyclist on the West Coast in those circumstances (apparently). Everyone up front saw her but the driver didn’t.

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  25. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    It won’t matter if the Queen’s Birthday road fatalities were caused by inattention, topography or “Acts of God”.

    The police response will be to call for the open road speed limit to be reduced to 25kph & more breath testing of drivers.

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  26. All_on_Red (1,540 comments) says:

    A simple solution to the problem is a small judder bar before the intersection. I’ve seen them put in where there’s been problems with drivers overshooting. Theres one at a roundabout on the way to Ardmore Airport, works well.
    That said, when a tourist comes here to look at the countryside, then that’s what they are going to do. Inattention is always going to be a problem.

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  27. tom hunter (4,643 comments) says:

    I had to chuckle at the last few paragraphs of this article on Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl. The article points out that many in the intelligence community think that Bergdahl may have done more than just walk into the arms of the Taliban, he may have actively helped them! This includes officials in the Executive Branch itself.

    But the kicker for me is when the writer produces a puzzled response as to why the WH spokesman did not directly push back on these questions:

    Remember, the ostensible point of the prisoner exchange is to set a precedent so that Obama can release other detainees at Gitmo later this year and finally close the prison. The last thing you’d want to do in that case is trade five especially dangerous detainees for someone whose loyalty to the U.S. is in serious question even within the administration’s own ranks. It’s a political tornado in the making; if Bergdahl does end up being proved a deserter or worse, Democrats will run screaming from future Gitmo prisoner releases. Just doesn’t make sense.

    Maybe the White House has reason to believe that Bergdahl’s getting a bum rap and really was taken against his will — but in that case, why isn’t Carney or anyone else pushing back hard with that information? What’s going on here?

    What’s going on is the VA scandal or the wiretapping of journalists or the train wreck of the Obamacare website launch. In other words what’s going is political circuses first and reading the details afterward. What’s going on is the sort of massive political incompetence that Obama has become notorious for. These morons just had no idea about all this potentially bad news in the background, despite it having been written up in places like Rolling Stone two years ago.

    Utterly fucking clueless morons who think anything can be spun. To that end I thought this article’s comment was appropriate:

    Being president was tough for him because governance was never his strong suit. Being an ex-president, though, will suit him perfectly: No actual responsibilities but tons of stature, and he’ll be completely free to be the liberal he truly is at heart without worrying that it might cost Democrats a Senate seat or two in red states. Jimmy Carter’s been riding that wave for nearly 35 years after a disappointing presidency. No reason O can’t do the same. And the celebrities —oh, the celebrities.

    “No actual responsibilities but tons of stature”. Yep, that will fit Obama like a glove.

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  28. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    And how is George W whiling away his time as ex-president?

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  29. Ross12 (1,359 comments) says:

    Is this where you say ” Oh the irony !!”

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/06/internet-party-postie-plus-really/#more-138858

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  30. All_on_Red (1,540 comments) says:

    Mikey
    I think G dubya has taken up painting.

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  31. ross411 (392 comments) says:

    Farrar: Your RSS feed is broken. It gives this message in chrome:

    This page contains the following errors:

    error on line 99 at column 25: Input is not proper UTF-8, indicate encoding !
    Bytes: 0x07 0x20 0x69 0x6E

    So people with feed readers like myself are getting no updates.

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  32. jcuknz (704 comments) says:

    It took a visiting Australian to ask me if stop lines were yellow and give way lines were white for me to realise the truth of his question after driving in NZ for over twenty years. I charged through an intersection like ‘hj’s’ in North Wales and shudder every time I think of my foolishness … fortunately I met no traffic BUT ….

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  33. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    tom hunter,

    Please note the headline from your Far Right blogger’s link,

    Report: “Many” in intelligence community fear Bergdahl may have been an active collaborator with the Taliban

    Note the words especially ” Many” and ” may of been”

    The beginnings of yet another Benghazi lies and spin.?

    http://hotair.com/tags/benghazi/

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  34. All_on_Red (1,540 comments) says:

    Tom
    I see Carney has gone now. Probably couldn’t take it anymore. Can’t say I blame him. What a disaster Obama has been.

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  35. Redbaiter (8,217 comments) says:

    “Utterly fucking clueless morons who think anything can be spun.”

    Surprised at your surprise. Anything can be spun, and the lying scum have been getting away with it for decades because the media have slowly been replaced by agents for the Progressive agenda. We don’t have watch dogs, we have socialist lapdogs who are neo-Pravda.

    The truth about Bergdahl was out there days or even years ago. See here for an example-

    http://falfn.com/CrusaderRabbit/?p=22324#comment-48585

    The media just twist it to suit their boy, the Communist fraud & traitor Obama. Corruption of the media has destroyed our democratic system and led us into tyranny. If we want democracy to work again, the media and the communist agents dominating it must be destroyed.

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  36. All_on_Red (1,540 comments) says:

    Don’t hold back now Red!
    Gotta say, there’s a lot of truth in what you are saying.

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  37. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    All_on_Red , still in toxic shot mode re 14/11/2012.?

    Get over it and move on.!

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  38. All_on_Red (1,540 comments) says:

    Stephie
    Just dislike liars trying to fool people. Like Obama tried on 19.05.2014 and Norman did in Parliament recently and at the recent Green conference.

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  39. tom hunter (4,643 comments) says:

    Stephieboy

    I actually admire your defence of Israel and one or two other things – but on the matter of Obama you’re stuffed so far up his rectum I can barely see your shoelaces.

    If you do nothing but read “Far-Left” mediamatters.com and imbibe their fanatical obsession with Fox News then I guess you could miss the key points that the original news came from Hastings – hardly a journalist with GOP sympathies – publishing the story in Rolling Stone, also not known as a GOP mouthpiece to say the least, followed up by Jake Tapper of CNN.

    Perhaps you can go a step further and demonise Bergdahl’s fellow unit comrades as GOP plants or some other such crap. They’re fairly angry with the Army and the Administration at present. More than enough for Obama worshippers like you to put them in the doghouse I’m sure.

    Still, I figure I’ve only got another eleven months or so of it being implied by people like you, when it’s not stated explicitly, that the GOP or people like me in far away NZ are racists.

    By January 2015 Stephieboy will be in full War-On-Women mode and the rest of us will be misogynists.

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  40. Auberon (873 comments) says:

    Has Jan Wright, Commissioner for the Environment, ever prepared a report which she hasn’t released in some form to Radio New Zealand before other media?

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  41. Redbaiter (8,217 comments) says:

    “Don’t hold back now Red! Gotta say, there’s a lot of truth in what you are saying.”

    The left only succeed in their constant deceit because we allow it.

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  42. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, In Ireland:

    The Catholic Church in Ireland is facing fresh accusations of child neglect after a researcher found records for almost 800 young children believed to be buried in a septic tank beside a former orphanage for the children of unwed mothers.

    The researcher, Catherine Corless, says her discovery of child death records at the Catholic nun-run home in Tuam, County Galway, suggests that a disused septic tank filled with bones is the final resting place for most, if not all, of the children.

    Death records found that the 796 children, mostly babies and toddlers, died of disease and illness in the orphanage, which operated from 1926 to 1961.

    Locals discovered the bone repository in 1975 but, before Corless’ discovery, believed they were mostly victims of Ireland’s mid-19th century famine.

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  43. flipper (3,905 comments) says:

    Enough of politics….

    Would it not be wonderful if our super sleuth-like MSM were to do a warts and all analysis of the ABs’ preparation for the first test v Pongolia?

    We are expected to believe that the ABs run around a training field for a couple of hours, kiss babies, and sign autographs….. and that is their “preparation”. Surely that must be just one minor aspect of their preparation. Where is the analysis of their planned game strategy? Where is the analysis of England’s probable game plan?

    Ok…. that could not be published prior to the test. But I recall that T P McLean once sat in/thru pre match planning sessions and the final team talk, while in the UK with the ABs.

    The problem, perhaps, is that only W Grey today approaches his standing. May be that is the problem. The fairies that front TV (not the former ABs) , and the mostly juvenile wet behind the ears print folk, are probably incapable. But one of them should make the effort.

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  44. edd (157 comments) says:

    The Warriors decision to stay at Mt Smart compounds the catastrophe that is Eden Park post the 2011 Rugby world cup…

    $50 million in debt for a stadium that only makes 2.2 million operating profits annually. It’s a fucking joke. The only tenants who want to use it are the AB’s, and that’s only once or twice a year. And that’s only because they sell it out. Nobody else in Auckland wants to play in a ground that’s too big for rugby and too small for cricket. Also it’s too residential for rock concerts. FML.

    Why didn’t we go the extra distance and build a football-only stadium on the Waterfront when we had the chance. It would have cost more, but the Warriors would move there, the Blues would attract bigger crowds there, and if it was covered like Dunedin we’d get probably 10 more major rock concerts a year.

    How awesome has Vetor arena been. It’s right next to the train station and thousands of car parks. It’s indoors so we can get all the medium sized concerts tours that hit Eastern Australia during our rainy season. Brilliant. Why can’t we think like that about everything that happens in Auckland? I’ve got a few opinions on that question that I won’t share here.

    Auckland City is truly fucked on this one, and the Warriors aren’t going to come to the rescue of the White Elephant that is Eden Park.

    Who makes the decision to upgrade a suburban sports ground to 50,000 capacity anyway? There’s no parking. There’s no easy motorway access. The neighbors hate it. It’s a zero atmosphere echo chamber with less than 30,000 fans. If the AB’s didn’t win every time they play there it would be the most hated suburban multi-sports stadium in the world.

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  45. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Closest thing to an inside view I have seen in recent years was Justin Marshall in the ABs’ changing room pre-test. He was fizzing with excitement – it made great telly.

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  46. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    Redbaiter,

    Deceit.? You should talk.!

    All_on_Red ,

    What lie by Obama on 19/05/14.?

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  47. flipper (3,905 comments) says:

    mikenmild (9,729 comments) says:

    June 4th, 2014 at 10:02 am

    Closest thing to an inside view
    ****

    Yep, good point.

    But that is the dressing room finale. It is what happens during the week that really sets the plan for any game. No?

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  48. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    It’d be nice to get a fly on the wall view of the preparation, for sure. Never gonna happen though.

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  49. tom hunter (4,643 comments) says:

    Another good morning chuckle is provided by long-time hard-left mouthpiece Mother Jones, who recently noticed rather a lot of accidents involving trains carrying oil, and put out a tweet asking:
    Why do these tank cars carrying oil keep blowing up?

    As the Twitchy staff noted, answering this question was a job for Captain Obvious. My favourite tweet response to this brain-dead stupidity was:

    @MotherJones
    If the Kochs owned these shitty trains instead of Warren Buffett, Harry Reid would have a torch mob gathered.

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  50. Viking2 (11,332 comments) says:

    hj (5,956 comments) says:
    June 4th, 2014 at 9:02 am

    It could be that it wasn’t the stop sign he saw but the intersection. You don’t see the stop sign ’till you see the intersection and the Canterbury plain is flat. If your mind is way off wandering it it possible to not see a hazard.
    One example where that sort of thing can happen is the Kingston Crossing Road in Southland where it joins the Lumsden Gore Highway. The road joins on a curve and the curve slopes away from the viewer.
    =======================================

    Looking at the TV last night I wondered at the light angles. It looked possible from the short clip that the sun may well be a contributor.
    Hard to judge and there but for the grace of God go most of us.

    It seems to me that couple of simple things done could help with these situations. I drive with my eyes on the road. Hardly ever look at a speedo, too dangerous. IMHO we could do a lot better with signage. e.g. why don’t we paint a red line down the middle of the road, white is fucking stupid, and have painted arrows pointing to the left in the lanes. ( for the tourists)
    Same at stop signs. Red means stop, so stop bars should be red and be preceded by red bars across the road. Hard to see maybe but someone will figure that out.

    It irks me to drive for miles sometimes and not see a speed sign. Stand up signs just join the clutter. Lets put the speed signs back on the road where we can see them, where the should be and they will be seen with out the distraction of having to look away from the roads. Check this out for yourself and you will see what I mean.

    Keep your mind on the driving and your hands on the wheel
    Keep your snoopy eyes on the road ahead.

    And fuck you’se that continue to use your cellphone, either type.

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  51. Jack5 (4,997 comments) says:

    Feminists and leftist teacher bloc are benefiting from NZ immigration rules.

    They are kicking out a young male Scot who specialises in early Steiner education. Males make up a very tiny slice of pre-school teachers, and Steiner is an interesting education system. IMHO, it’s not in the same class as the Montessori system, which has educated many leaders at the frontier of world technology, including Lary Page and Sergei Brin, Google’s founders, Jeff Bezos, Amazon’s founder, and Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia’s founder. Other famous former Montessori pupils include Peter Drucker, the management guru, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, the novelist, and, not least Prince William and Prince Harry.

    An early-education male and a Steiner specialist! Horror and damnation! No chance against the feminists and leftist teachers and a State that wants to fill the country with real estate sales agents.

    Bureaucrats say there are hundreds of unemployed young pre-school teacher graduates available in NZ – female and non-Steiner, of course. If the young Scot was a female and taught conventional pre-school systems, they would have a case, but he’s not in this category.

    The Hooerald report:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11267031

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  52. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    A baker in the U.S who did not want to make a wedding cake for a gay wedding because of his religious beliefs has been told that he HAS TO. Not only that, he and his employees must undergo sensitivity training and send regular reports to the government on their progress at bending over backwards for the new religion of gay.

    A family owned bakery has been ordered to make wedding cakes for gay couples and guarantee that its staff be given comprehensive training on Colorado’s anti-discrimination laws after the state’s Civil Rights Commission determined the Christian baker violated the law by refusing to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex couple.

    Jack Phillips, the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop, in Lakewood, Colorado was directed to change his store policies immediately and force his staff to attend the training sessions. For the next two years, Phillips will also be required to submit quarterly reports to the commission to confirm that he has not turned away customers based on their sexual orientation

    Think of it as reverse conversion therapy (or straight man’s rehab) so that the state can mandate diversity through conformity.

    Nicolle Martin, an attorney with Alliance Defending Freedom, called the ruling Orwellian and said they are considering an appeal.

    “They are turning people of faith into religious refugees,” Martin told me. “Is this the society that we want to live in – where people of faith are driven out of business?”

    Martin said it was “truly frightening” that Phillips will be forced to submit quarterly reports to the government disclosing whether he turned away any wedding cake business.
    “There will be some reporting requirements so that Jack can demonstrate that he doesn’t exercise his belief system anymore – that he has divested himself of his beliefs,” she said.
    He will also be required to create new policies and procedures for his staff.

    “We consider this reporting to be aimed at rehabilitating Jack so that he has the right thoughts,” Martin said. “That’s offensive to everything America stands for.”

    Phillips, who is celebrating his 40th year in business this week, told me he’s not going to create any new policies.

    “My old ones are pretty adequate as far as I’m concerned,” he said. “I don’t plan on giving up my faith and changing because of that.”

    The controversy started in 2012 when a gay couple asked Phillips to make their wedding cake. Phillips politely declined, saying he could not make a cake promoting a same-sex ceremony because of his faith. He offered to make them any other baked item they wanted.

    Charlie Craig and David Mullins filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission alleging they were discriminated against because of their sexual orientation. For the record, same-sex marriage is against the law in Colorado.

    The commission affirmed a civil court’s ruling that the bakery cannot discriminate against persons in a public place based on sexual orientation.

    “You can have your beliefs, but you can’t hurt other people at the same time,” Commission Chairwoman Katina Banks told The Denver Channel.

    ACLU attorney Amanda Goad, who heads up the organization’s LBGT group, heralded the ruling.

    “Religious freedom is undoubtedly an important American value, but so is the right to be treated equally under the law free from discrimination,” she said in a statement.

    No, my dear. Religious freedom is a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.

    More – http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/06/03/baker-forced-to-make-gay-wedding-cakes-undergo-sensitivity-training-after/

    Government bullying at its worst. People are being told what they can believe. So much for freedom of religion.

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  53. All_on_Red (1,540 comments) says:

    Stephie
    “What lie by Obama on 19/05/14.?”
    See my 8.20 post. Obama used the 97% lie in a speech on that date.

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  54. SGA (980 comments) says:

    mikenmild at 10:00 am

    Meanwhile, In Ireland:
    … [snip] …
    Death records found that the 796 children, mostly babies and toddlers, died of disease and illness in the orphanage, which operated from 1926 to 1961.

    Saw that – worth remembering that for some the good ol’ days weren’t necessarily that good.

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  55. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    Over in the U.S, the Democrats are pushing an amendment to change the First Amendment to give Congress the power to limit political speech. 41 have already signed it. Ted Cruz gives them a lesson –

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  56. edd (157 comments) says:

    http://www.gorentals.co.nz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Eden-Park-Auckland.jpg

    http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/ChicagoBears/newaerial.jpg

    Eden Park Vs Soldier Field.

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  57. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    More – http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/06/03/baker-forced-to-make-gay-wedding-cakes-undergo-sensitivity-training-after/

    Government bullying at its worst. People are being told what they can believe. So much for freedom of religion.

    Fletch, I agree that they shouldn’t be compelled to do something that they feel is against their religious beliefs.

    I am curious, though – if their religious beliefs were against interracial marriage, would your position be the same?

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  58. Redbaiter (8,217 comments) says:

    “Government bullying at its worst. People are being told what they can believe. So much for freedom of religion.”

    Calling this bullying is being far too kind. It is in fact pure evil.

    Notable that the progs who have brought this terrible situation upon us are still out there preaching the pathetic artifice that they care about liberty. (see Sallies thread)

    When we see such things as this accepted as norm it reinforces Erich Fromme’s proposition that madness in individuals is easy to detect, but goes unnoticed if displayed by the populace at large.

    Fromme learnt his lesson from Nazism. More lately that madness is displayed by the Progressives who preach liberty but in fact have a mindset as bad as any of Hitler’s brownshirts.

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  59. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    SGA
    It wasn’t so much that so many children had died at the orphanage, as the callous disposal of their remains.

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  60. SGA (980 comments) says:

    @ mikenmild at 10:49 am
    I had a little look beyond the Stuff article
    http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Galway-historian-reveals-truth-behind-800-orphans-in-mass-grave.html

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  61. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    Fletch. this link below provides context and more factual details on the proposed amendments that you typically fail to provide instead of the “Canadian’s ” Ted Cruz’s rhetoric and bombast ,

    http://www.thestate.com/2014/06/03/3485215/democratic-senators-amend-constitution.html

    The proposed changes in respect of private/ corporate electoral donations by billionaires etc seem pretty reasonable to me.

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  62. Harriet (4,723 comments) says:

    “…..When we see such things as this accepted as norm it reinforces Erich Fromme’s proposition that madness in individuals is easy to detect, but goes unnoticed if displayed by the populace at large….”

    20yrs ago you could be arrested for committing homosexual acts on public property.

    Now you can be arrested for expressing homophobic views on private property.

    Government is the new normal.

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  63. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    Fletch, I agree that they shouldn’t be compelled to do something that they feel is against their religious beliefs.

    I am curious, though – if their religious beliefs were against interracial marriage, would your position be the same?

    Ryan, are their any religious beliefs against interracial marriage?
    Besides that, gay marriage is not a civil right, although liberals would like it to be and try to frame gay rights as such. That is the narrative. In truth, so-called “gay rights” is nothing like civil rights.

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  64. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Ryan, are their any religious beliefs against interracial marriage?

    As I understand it, a lot of white supremacists believe that God separated the races for good reason and disapproves of mingling.

    Besides that, gay marriage is not a civil right, although liberals would like it to be and try to frame gay rights as such. That is the narrative. In truth, so-called “gay rights” is nothing like civil rights.

    Well, yes, no doubt the same could have been said of interracial marriage once.

    But for the sake of argument, let’s say that interracial marriage is a civil rights issue and same-sex marriage is not.

    You’re saying that freedom of religion trumps gay rights, but civil rights trump freedom of religion? As in, you’d support religiously white-supremacist bakers being forced to bake an interracial wedding cake, but you don’t support religiously anti-same-sex-marriage bakers being forced to bake a same-sex wedding cake?

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  65. Harriet (4,723 comments) says:

    If no one is ‘born gay’ then there are only homosexual sex acts.

    And government is allowed to legislate against sex acts.

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  66. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    Want privacy in your internet searches? Ditch Google and start using Duck Duck Go.

    https://duckduckgo.com/

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  67. dirty harry (446 comments) says:

    Grott Chris…the man did kill 3 people , he should count himself lucky he even has bail.

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  68. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    SGA & Mikenmild

    There’s a similar article at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2645870/Mass-grave-contains-bodies-800-babies-site-Irish-home-unmarried-mothers.html

    An extract:

    ….”Newly unearthed reports show that they suffered malnutrition and neglect, which caused the deaths of many, while others died of measles, convulsions, TB, gastroenteritis and pneumonia.”……

    And from an an interview with an 85 year old survivor:

    …..”‘When we were eating it was in this big long hall and they gave us all this soup out of a big pot, which I remember very well. It was rotten to taste, but it was better than starving.’

    Mary recalled that the children were ‘rarely washed’, and often wore the same clothes for weeks at a time.

    She said: ‘We were filthy dirty. I remember one time when I soiled myself, the nuns ducked me down into a big cold bath and I never liked nuns after that.’ “……

    And from the comments section of the article:

    ….”I spent the first three years of my life in one of these homes and yes the nuns were very cruel seeing them cots brought it back to me we used to be kept in theme cots all day and when we cried the used to just keep hitting us was also very cold place my mother was separated from me she was put in a workhouse and was never let out after 40 years she dyed there because she had a child out of wedlock these were very cruel times in Ireland pleased we now live in a more open society “……

    “Suffer the little children”……”God’s love”…..”Charity instead of welfare”…..

    Yeah right.

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  69. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Yes, nasska, it wasn’t always the good old days.

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  70. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    The “good old days” stank Mike…..only a few religio conservative retards have nostalgia for those times.

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  71. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Want privacy in your internet searches? Ditch Google and start using Duck Duck Go.

    https://duckduckgo.com/

    This is great, Fletch, thanks.

    Check out the add-on Ghostery too. https://www.ghostery.com/en/

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  72. Redbaiter (8,217 comments) says:

    Narsekissa teaming up with the commies again.

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  73. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    ….”teaming up with the commies”…..

    They’d make better company than any group or individual capable of treating small humans like the article describes.

    So would the Devil himself for that matter.

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  74. Redbaiter (8,217 comments) says:

    That’s fine Narsekissa. The reason the right have been losing is that their ranks have been infiltrated by communists who pose as something else.

    The more of your type we can identify and send back to their real home, the more ground we will make in removing Progressive political and social hegemony in the west.

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  75. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    Here we go,the nasty Catholics again.Callous disposal, mean nuns blah blah spare me your outrage wankers.

    How do our secular tax funded abortion clinics dispose of babies?

    The building was the poor house,of the type built all over the UK .These huge buildings were converted to other institutional uses such as orphangaes,old folks homes ,barracks etc as the old poor laws were superceded.

    The poor from 1840 who died there and indeed in the attached fever hospital won’t have had Coronation Street style funerals that the bigots here seem to think they should have had.And it was th same for those miserable ,abandoned children .

    The septic tank that so much is being made of was disused from the Poor House days and would have been part of the grounds.Whose to say it was full of shit as waht is trying to be made here. It was basically a catacomb and possibly no different.

    Note the time of this episode. 1925 to 61. With some 300 died between 43 and 46. What was happening then? Ireland was cut off from the world and the general population wouldn’t have been doing too well from a malnutrition point of view anywhere in Europe at that time.TB was rife. Funds scarce.Of course children would die.And there was no one to claim them.

    I see nasska the anti catholic bigot has posted the DM story. Very kind. Look at the photos. Not bad,thank you very much. At least the Church provided sancturay until adoption.

    Corless the “historian” is on a mega guilt trip on this story, she relates how a friend bullied one of the kids (who attended the same school as the town kids did) and she found it funny!

    Her guilt at being a little shit is driving this non story.

    ps How do our tax payer,parliament approved abortion clinics dispose of babies.And how many are killed every year?

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  76. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    Ryan, you can’t compare Civil Rights to Gay Rights for the fact that for “equality”, the two things being compared must be equal, or “the same” with regard to the unique attributes or innate characteristics that define what those things are. Is a ‘marriage’ between a same-sex couple the same in regards to the innate characteristics that define marriage, as a marriage between those of different genders? No, it isn’t.

    The color of a man is not an attribute that defines what a man is or what makes him equal to another man. The color is a secondary characteristic, much like an apple is an apple, no matter if the skin is red or green.

    As far as equality, a red apple has as much apple-ness as a green apple. They are the same and thus, equal as pertaining to the characteristics or properties that make an apple, an apple.

    Marriage, also, has characteristics that define it. The color of the couple are secondary. The color(s) of one or both of the couple is not something that defines what marriage is. The nature of marriage is not dependant on it. I believe that marriage is dependant, however, on the couple being a man and a woman. Marriage is based on the complementarity of the couple based on gender.

    What you’re basically asking me to believe is that sodomy is equal to sexual intercourse (coitus), which is the procreative act that marriage is grounded in. I’m sorry, but it isn’t.

    In this way gay marriage is NOT equal to traditional marriage, by the virtue of one of the things that defines what marriage is, not being present.

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  77. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    This is great, Fletch, thanks.

    Check out the add-on Ghostery too. https://www.ghostery.com/en/

    Ryan, already using it – well something like it. Am using Disconnect, which is similar. Disconnect Search is also great if you did want to continue using Google, as all the Google search requests go through the Disconnect server.

    https://disconnect.me/

    https://disconnect.me/search

    They ask for a donation for Disconnect search, but let you put $0.

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  78. tom hunter (4,643 comments) says:

    I am curious, though – if their religious beliefs were against interracial marriage, would your position be the same?
    Curious?

    You’ve been down this path dozens of times on this blog and on this subject and you know where it ends. I think you regard it as an cheap, easy debating win, which it is in some respects. Where’s Waihana?

    The more precise comparison in such a debate about freedom of religion is whether a person of one religion should be compelled by the state to support the practices of another religion (what, you don’t think “gay” is a religion)? Should Jewish or Christian wedding celebrants demand that the Islamic baker they picked bake their cake much do so on pain of state coercion – or better yet, a couple who’ve abandoned Islam and are now “apostates” in the eyes of said baker?

    Moreover – since it’s also reported that there were any number of nearby bakers that would have happily done the job, it’s clear that this gay couple targeted this guy to make a point and we’re playing the consistency game here – how does an anarchist justify supporting this use of the powers of the state to compel one citizen to support the private, discretionary activities of another citizen?

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  79. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Ryan, you can’t compare Civil Rights to Gay Rights for the fact that for “equality”, the two things being compared must be equal, or “the same” with regard to the unique attributes or innate characteristics that define what those things are. Is a ‘marriage’ between a same-sex couple the same in regards to the innate characteristics that define marriage, as a marriage between those of different genders? No, it isn’t.

    The color of a man is not an attribute that defines what a man is or what makes him equal to another man. The color is a secondary characteristic, much like an apple is an apple, no matter if the skin is red or green.

    As far as equality, a red apple has as much apple-ness as a green apple. They are the same and thus, equal as pertaining to the characteristics or properties that make an apple, an apple.

    Marriage, also, has characteristics that define it. The color of the couple are secondary. The color(s) of one or both of the couple is not something that defines what marriage is. The nature of marriage is not dependant on it. I believe that marriage is dependant, however, on the couple being a man and a woman. Marriage is based on the complementarity of the couple based on gender.

    What you’re basically asking me to believe is that sodomy is equal to sexual intercourse (coitus), which is the procreative act that marriage is grounded in. I’m sorry, but it isn’t.

    In this way gay marriage is NOT equal to traditional marriage, by the virtue of one of the things that defines what marriage is, not being present.

    Okay, ignoring all that, which we know I think you’re wrong on.

    If the government were to force someone to bake an interracial wedding cake, against the religious beliefs of the bakers, would you object?

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  80. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Moreover – since it’s also reported that there were any number of nearby bakers that would have happily done the job, it’s clear that this gay couple targeted this guy to make a point and we’re playing the consistency game here – how does an anarchist justify supporting this use of the powers of the state to compel one citizen to support the private, discretionary activities of another citizen?

    Read up, Tom. I don’t think the state should compel people to bake same-sex or interracial wedding cakes against their religious beliefs.

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  81. Redbaiter (8,217 comments) says:

    Damn Ryan, that’s just half of it. What about the state enforced brainwashing and the reporting/ investigations. Can’t you see what evil you are doing/ endorsing?

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  82. tom hunter (4,643 comments) says:

    Read up, Tom. I don’t think the state should compel people to bake same-sex or interracial wedding cakes against their religious beliefs.

    But you won’t stand in the way of someone getting the shit kicked out him by the state at the behest of fellow citizens, you sure as hell will not side with someone like Fletch, with whom you disagree on the matter of gay marriage – and this baker is going to get the shit kicked out of him in a dozen different ways even if he wins in the Supreme Court.

    No, instead you’ll stand there asking whether the guys supporters would feel the same way if this was about race. Sweet – if you love the power of the state. The good news is that in NZ there’s not even a constitution should this happen here, so you probably won’t need to be conflicted.

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  83. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    Ryan, I think the government should enforce the law and that a Christian should abide by that law insofar as it does not seriously conflict with his beliefs. Theoretically, laws should represent what is moral – they should reflect God’s Law and Natural Law. When they do not (as in the case of abortion etc) I think a Christian has a moral right to stand up and not to follow that law, as in the case of employers being forced, (under Obamacare) to provide contraception funding under employee healthcare. That is why there are a large number of legal cases against the Government at the moment.

    Should the government force a baker to bake a cake against his wishes to celebrate a woman getting an abortion? After all, abortion is legal and many people consider it moral. In most cases a woman has every right to obtain one, and isn’t it some kind of discrimination to deny her a cake celebrating same?

    That’s the kind of question you’re asking with your interracial example. It’s a kind of theoretical, out there example.

    In answer to your question, no, I don’t think the government should force someone to bake a cake for an interracial wedding, but then, I don’t think a store that wouldn’t would stay open very long once word got around. However, in the case of the baker in my story, he is being inundated with people wanting his goods (once the story got out) so that he doesn’t even have to bake wedding cakes at all now.

    And should the highest court in the land force Jack to do the bidding of homosexuals?

    “There’s civil disobedience,” Phillips told me. “We’ll see what happens. I’m not giving up my faith. Too many people have died for this faith to give it up that easily.”

    Meanwhile, the bullying tactics of the militant gay rights community have not hampered the bakery’s bottom line. They’ve gotten so much business from the sales of cookies and brownies, they’ve temporarily stopped making wedding cakes.

    “Obey Christ rather than worry about what man can do to you,” Phillips said.

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  84. Nukuleka (290 comments) says:

    I have just received an email from Christchurch Public Libraries telling me that they are to hold a series of exciting events to celebrate Matariki, the Maori New Year. I have sent off an email of enquiry to ask them what they did to celebrate last Christmas and Easter- nativity cribs for Christmas maybe and kids’ bible storytelling for Easter?

    I am looking forward to their response and will keep you posted.

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  85. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    I mean, I went and shopped at Farmers over the long weekend. I noticed that much of the menswear in Farmers had a 30% discount, whereas the womenswear (for the same items) had a 50% discount. Is that sexual discrimination? It kind of is. Am I going to jump and down and complain about it? No, because it’s not something that I feel that strongly about or that impacts my faith.

    A bit annoying though :-?

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  86. G152 (260 comments) says:

    Well we started off with Global Warming where no children would know what snow was.
    Then, because it wasn’t warming very much they changed the title to Climate Change which means anything as the climate is always changing.
    However recently they’ve changed the name once more to Global Weirding.
    Imagine the thousands of trees turned into paper to keep up with the changing letterheads…
    Just asking Is there any chance we can get another 3c here please ?
    It’d make the winter so more enjoyable

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  87. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    re: climate change – there is still ice on Lake Superior in the U.S this month (the first months of Summer), which apparently is quite unusual.

    http://www.drroyspencer.com/2014/06/ice-still-on-lake-superior-in-june/

    So, are we warming?

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  88. SGA (980 comments) says:

    Fletch at 12:16 pm

    I noticed that much of the menswear in Farmers had a 30% discount, whereas the womenswear (for the same items) had a 50% discount. …
    A bit annoying though :-?

    Cross-dressing’s not an option? :-)

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  89. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    A young Australian man killed by a drone strike in Yemen was radicalised at a Christchurch mosque, according to his family in Queensland.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/246260/drone-victim%27s-family-told-extreme-islam-in-nz
    “There is no radical people at the mosque at all,” he told Radio New Zealand. The problem with those converts, they go to the internet.

    “We don’t have a system for them – even if we had a system, the earthquake and everything has been disturbed so most of them go to the internet and that’s now they can stray easily.”

    could be true as those types of converts are perhaps
    attracted by militant Islam.

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  90. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    Cross-dressing’s not an option?

    Nah, off the shoulder doesn’t suit me ;)

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  91. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Google to form Transhuman Utopia with Hundreds of Spy Satellites

    In today’s video, Christopher Greene of AMTV reports on hundreds of Google spy satellites.

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  92. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    But you won’t stand in the way of someone getting the shit kicked out him by the state at the behest of fellow citizens, you sure as hell will not side with someone like Fletch, with whom you disagree on the matter of gay marriage – and this baker is going to get the shit kicked out of him in a dozen different ways even if he wins in the Supreme Court.

    No, instead you’ll stand there asking whether the guys supporters would feel the same way if this was about race. Sweet – if you love the power of the state. The good news is that in NZ there’s not even a constitution should this happen here, so you probably won’t need to be conflicted.

    What on earth are you talking about, Tom?

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  93. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Damn Ryan, that’s just half of it. What about the state enforced brainwashing and the reporting/ investigations. Can’t you see what evil you are doing/ endorsing?

    What am I endorsing, Red?

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  94. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    As Fletch rabbits on about gays and associated hysteria lets not forget the Magdalene Asylum system appropriated by the Catholic Church in Ireland that saw thousands of female victims subject to verbal, physical and sexual abuse,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Asylum

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  95. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Ryan, I think the government should enforce the law and that a Christian should abide by that law insofar as it does not seriously conflict with his beliefs. Theoretically, laws should represent what is moral – they should reflect God’s Law and Natural Law. When they do not (as in the case of abortion etc) I think a Christian has a moral right to stand up and not to follow that law, as in the case of employers being forced, (under Obamacare) to provide contraception funding under employee healthcare. That is why there are a large number of legal cases against the Government at the moment.

    Yes, I agree.

    Should the government force a baker to bake a cake against his wishes to celebrate a woman getting an abortion? After all, abortion is legal and many people consider it moral. In most cases a woman has every right to obtain one, and isn’t it some kind of discrimination to deny her a cake celebrating same?

    That’s the kind of question you’re asking with your interracial example. It’s a kind of theoretical, out there example.

    It’s not a theoretical, out-there example at all. Some people would find it similarly absurd that a baker would refuse to bake a wedding cake for same-sex customers. But it doesn’t matter how absurd other people find it – what matters is that it’s their religious beliefs.

    In answer to your question, no, I don’t think the government should force someone to bake a cake for an interracial wedding, but then, I don’t think a store that wouldn’t would stay open very long once word got around. However, in the case of the baker in my story, he is being inundated with people wanting his goods (once the story got out) so that he doesn’t even have to bake wedding cakes at all now.

    There was a time, not so long ago, when a baker taking a stand against interracial marriage would have been inundated with people wanting his goods once the story got out.

    I can easily imagine a popular boycott of a baker who took a stand against same-sex marriage, if not today in the US, at least somewhere else or in the near future. I’m not sure how I feel about that. It puts him in a position of having to choose between staying true to his religious beliefs and staying in business. It’s potentially a kind of mob rule.

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  96. tom hunter (4,643 comments) says:

    What on earth are you talking about, Tom?
    This
    It’s potentially a kind of mob rule.

    But with added state power for a brighter society!

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  97. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    But with added state power for a brighter society!

    Shouldn’t you be addressing someone who’s in promoting state power and/or mob rule?

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  98. tom hunter (4,643 comments) says:

    I’m addressing someone who turns his back on those demanding state power to enforce their own beliefs and who starts asking their targets whether they’re not exactly like the racists of yesteryear.

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  99. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    wiki, why we shouldn’t take the ravings and rants of Christopher Greene of amtv too seriously,

    http://www.amtvmedia.com/boston-bomber-christmas-lights-model-cars-and-pressure-cookers-enable-terrorism/

    here also,

    and,and,and…..

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  100. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    tom hunter, using state power to enforce their own beliefs…?

    More Libertarian unreality. and hysteria ?

    Elaborate please.?

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  101. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    As Fletch rabbits on about gays and associated hysteria lets not forget the Magdalene Asylum system appropriated by the Catholic Church in Ireland that saw thousands of female victims subject to verbal, physical and sexual abuse,

    OK, but for the small fact that it isn’t true, according to a report commissioned by the Irish Government.

    The publication last week of the Irish government’s McAleese Report on the Magdalene laundries has proved kind of awkward for Catholic-bashers. For if McAleese’s thorough, 1,000-page study is to be believed, then it would appear that those laundries were not as evil and foul as they had been depicted over the past decade. Specifically the image of the laundries promoted by the popular, much-lauded film The Magdalene Sisters – which showed them as places where women were stripped, slapped, sexually abused and more – has been called into question by McAleese. This has led even The Irish Times, which never turns down an opportunity to wring its hands over Catholic wickedness, to say: “There is no escaping the fact that the [McAleese] report jars with popular perceptions.”

    In the Irish mind, and in the minds of everyone else who has seen or read one of the many films, plays and books about the Magdalene laundries, these were horrific institutions brimming with violence and overseen by sadistic, pervy nuns. Yet the McAleese Report found not a single incident of sexual abuse by a nun in a Magdalene laundry. Not one. Also, the vast majority of its interviewees said they were never physically punished in the laundries.

    As one woman said, “It has shocked me to read in papers that we were beat and our heads shaved and that we were badly treated by the nuns… I was not touched by any nun and I never saw anyone touched.” The small number of cases of corporal punishment reported to McAleese consisted of the kind of thing that happened in many normal schools in the 1960s, 70s and 80s: being caned on the legs or rapped on the knuckles. The authors of the McAleese Report, having like the rest of us imbibed the popular image of the Magdalene laundries as nun-run concentration camps, seem to have been taken aback by “the number of women who spoke positively about the nuns”.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100202781/catholic-bashers-have-embellished-the-truth-about-abuse-in-catholic-institutions-its-time-to-put-the-record-straight/

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  102. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    Fletch , so the compensation payout settlement agreed to by the Dail and the Catholic church of €1.3bn to child abuse victims is somehow illusory made under false pretenses.?,

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/01/childprotection.children

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  103. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    I’m addressing someone who turns his back on those demanding state power to enforce their own beliefs and who starts asking their targets whether they’re not exactly like the racists of yesteryear.

    I was curious as to whether Fletch was defending religious freedom or was opposing something that happened to be at odds with his own religious beliefs.

    I think that Fletch is opposed to racial discrimination, so I picked that as a hypothetical that would most effectively contrast any support for religious freedom against someone’s right to do something he doesn’t support (stand against interracial marriage), rather than a situation where a stand for religious freedom coincides with a stand for his own religious views.
    (stand against same-sex marriage).
    This is a forum for discussion, Tom. If you’re not hopping on a plane to the US to stand in solidarity with this baker, then you’re doing no more than I am: agreeing here in this forum that he should be free from the state to refuse to do something that’s at odds with his religious beliefs.

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  104. Ross12 (1,359 comments) says:

    This Greenpeace guy thinks the Oil & Gas industry should be banned in NZ. I have a better idea –I think Greenpeace should be banned

    https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/24130660/frack-and-drill-report-reveals-cowboy-approach/

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  105. tom hunter (4,643 comments) says:

    This is a forum for discussion,
    Discussions are not helped by using the standard tactic of many leftists in this debate, which is to ask a question that implies that your opposing debater is no better than a racist.

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  106. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Didn’t believe Ryan’s explanation?

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  107. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Discussions are not helped by using the standard tactic of many leftists in this debate, which is to ask a question that implies that your opposing debater is no better than a racist.

    What would you have picked, in order to test his commitment to religious freedom?

    A polygamous wedding cake? He opposes polygamy.

    A child bride wedding cake? He opposes paedophilia.

    An abortion celebration cake, as he suggested? He opposes abortion.

    Someone’s right to refuse to bake a wedding cake for an interracial marriage on religious grounds is the most stark example of something that is A) believable; B) an instance of religious freedom; and C) something that Fletch does not support.

    You’ll note that he has answered that he would oppose the state forcing someone to bake such a cake in such a situation, demonstrating that he supports religious freedom even when it’s the freedom to do something he personally opposes.

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  108. Albert_Ross (270 comments) says:

    Does freedom from being forced to do something by the state only apply to activities that an individual objects to on religious grounds? What about an atheist baker who didn’t like gays, for example, should they be allowed to refuse to bake a cake to celebrate a gay marriage, or would they only be allowed to do that if they could show that they were a practicing religious and that their objection to gay marriage derived from their religion?

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  109. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    tom hunter,

    does not some of the problems and confusion stem from the fact that Libertarians like you and Ron Paul argue that statutes against racial discrimination and racism infringe your personal liberties ,

    Point 4 from the link below,

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/darren-hutchinson/five-reasons-why-ron-paul_b_947004.html

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  110. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Does freedom from being forced to do something by the state only apply to activities that an individual objects to on religious grounds? What about an atheist baker who didn’t like gays, for example, should they be allowed to refuse to bake a cake to celebrate a gay marriage, or would they only be allowed to do that if they could show that they were a practicing religious and that their objection to gay marriage derived from their religion?

    For me, freedom from being forced to do something by the state does not apply only to religious grounds, but religious grounds are the most stark examples of it because of how passionately those values are held by individuals.

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  111. tom hunter (4,643 comments) says:

    does not some of the problems and confusion stem from the fact that Libertarians like you and Ron Paul argue that statutes against racial discrimination and racism infringe your personal liberties

    See what I mean Ryan!

    And anarchists too stephieboy:

    Read up, Tom. I don’t think the state should compel people to bake same-sex or interracial wedding cakes against their religious beliefs.

    Raaaacist, raaacist, raaacist. ;)

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  112. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    See what I mean Ryan!

    Yes. Well, there are two possible explanations.

    The first is that people like Stephieboy genuinely believe that anyone who supports someone’s freedom to be racist is themselves racist. They’re wrong about that, but it’s understandable, especially given that actual racists also support people’s freedom to be racist.

    The second is that people like Stephieboy know that you’re not racist, but because they support in principle the use of state power to punish racism and you do not, they opt for tarring your views with the Racist brush in an attempt to undermine your position without addressing it head on.

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  113. tom hunter (4,643 comments) says:

    I suspect the latter Ryan – but somehow I doubt the likes of Stephieboy will ever be stalking you through this blog!!

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  114. cricko (289 comments) says:

    How much more news like this do we need to read before we all wake up to
    the fact that importing more and more muslims into New Zealand is insanity ?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10118134/Killed-terrorists-radicalised-in-Christchurch

    Can someone/anyone complete this sentence, and explain where i have got this wrong.

    “muslim immigrants are good for New Zealand because…………”

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  115. Fletch (6,225 comments) says:

    stephie, that has nothing to do with the laundries.
    You’re confusing different things now.

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  116. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    …because we refuse to discriminate against immigrants on the basis of religion?

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  117. Grant (432 comments) says:

    Can anyone think of something that has happened at least twenty times today that taxpayers paid for?
    G

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  118. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    There’s a thought.

    How many Kiwis have been killed by British and Australian immigrants driving drunk?

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  119. cricko (289 comments) says:

    Thanks for trying mikenmild,
    however, your thinking is a little skewed up. Your answer does not address the question at all.
    Surely you can do better than that. Try again.

    How does the fact that currently we refuse to discriminate on the basis of religion explain why muslim
    immigrants are good for New Zealand ?

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  120. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    It illustrates that you have it all backwards. We can exclude people from immigrating here if there are security concerns. So the question that needs to be asked is what criteria we apply in making such decisions. My contention is that it is not so straightforward as identifying an immigrant’s religion.

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  121. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    How does the fact that currently we refuse to dicriminate on the basis of religion explain why muslim
    immigrants are good for New Zealand ?

    Because the alternative would be to discriminate based on religion, and therefore throw out one of the essential principles of democracy?

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  122. Grant (432 comments) says:

    Make that at least 21 times today.
    G

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  123. Viking2 (11,332 comments) says:

    Can’t email this for captions but be funny .

    http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1401752265/737/10113737.jpg

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/hutt-news/10113734/What-a-day-for-a-hill-climb

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  124. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “Fletch , so the compensation payout settlement agreed to by the Dail and the Catholic church of €1.3bn to child abuse victims is somehow illusory made under false pretenses.?,”

    800 children found buried in septic tank in Ireland

    In a town in western Ireland, where castle ruins pepper green landscapes, there’s a six-foot stone wall that once surrounded a place called The Home. Between 1925 and 1961, thousands of “fallen women” and their “illegitimate” children passed through The Home, run by the Bon Secours nuns in Tuam.

    Many of the women, after paying a penance of indentured servitude for their out-of-wedlock pregnancy, left The Home for work and lives in other parts of Ireland and beyond. Some of their children were not so fortunate.

    More than five decades after The Home was closed and destroyed – where a housing development and children’s playground now stands – what happened to nearly 800 of those abandoned children has now emerged: Their bodies were piled into a massive septic tank sitting in the back of the structure and forgotten, with neither gravestones nor coffins.

    “The bones are still there,” local historian Catherine Corless, who uncovered the origins of the mass grave in a batch of never-before-released documents, told The Washington Post in a phone interview. “The children who died in The Home, this was them.”
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10117345/800-children-found-buried-in-septic-tank-in-Ireland

    The horrors of Catholicism. Not to mention the Spainish Inquisition.

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  125. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “wiki, why we shouldn’t take the ravings and rants of Christopher Greene of amtv too seriously,”

    We can certainly take Big Brother very seriously. The list of the state surveillance syndrome is endless.

    From space to the cities to the streets and state surveillance laws of the Patriot Act.

    Homeland Security is in fact a term borrowed from Nazi Germany.

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  126. Lucia Maria (2,245 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis business,

    There a number of comments already made today addressing the story that you have re-posted at 2:51, in particular one by Kowtow. I suggest going back and reading them.

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  127. stephieboy (2,614 comments) says:

    wiki, well i for one do not take Christopher Greene’s raves and ramblings seriously, notable of more recent times, Flight 370 the biggest conspiracy since 9/11.
    Yes by all means lets take the dangers of the surveillance state and big bother etc seriously but that it needs to be based on reasoned and rational analysis , not speculative conspiracy theories.
    “Homeland Security is in fact a term borrowed from Nazi Germany.” ??
    Document the that please.?

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  128. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Yes Lucia, kowtow’s apologia which essentially read ‘but abortion is so much worse’.

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  129. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    milky

    It’s called context you daft twat.

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  130. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Yes, and your ‘context’ was to wail about something completely different.

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  131. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    You really are a twat.

    You pretended you cared about callous disposal. I posed the question of disposal of unwanted today, as opposed to 60 years ago.Not a wail and not completly different.

    “For as long as they have existed ,orphanages have always had alarmingly high death rates”. There is nothing unusual in the case of Tuam that you ,and your anti Catholic band wagon mates have jumped on.

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/20/russia-orphanage-adopt-children-opinions-columnists-medialand.html

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  132. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Was there really nothing unusual about the orphanage dumping corpses in an old septic tank?

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  133. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    Covered that already, twat.

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  134. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Would that be the bit where you compared the septic tank to a catacomb? Nice ‘context’ that. Made it sound like the bodies were reverently put to rest.

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  135. Odakyu-sen (553 comments) says:

    “The horrors of Catholicism.”

    In a tough, unforgiving environment, there are going to be casualties. That’s the price you pay for a society with a clearly defined code of what is right and what is wrong; a good heaping of “shame,” and without a welfare net or support for single mothers.

    To play the Devils advocate, how would the numbers of single mothers and their children have grown in the 40-odd years from 1926 to 1961 if Ireland had had a welfare safety net? Would there have been 100,000 more children in solo-parent families drawing off the state? (Look how the welfare roles in NZ grew since the 1970s).

    Although fear of the consequences without a social safety net will cause the smarter ones to fall into line, the misfortunate, hopeless, stupid and feckless will still conceive out of wedlock. In the grim years from the 20s to the 60s in Ireland, these children were cast on the scrapheap. But how many births more would have been encouraged under a NZ-style welfare scheme?

    That’s the thing. Personal responsibility is fine and dandy if you can do it, but some people just can’t. What is the humane way to deal with those who simply cannot be responsible? The Irish example is one end of the spectrum.

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  136. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    No one knows exactly how the bodies were put out to rest yet.

    Given the Ireland of it’s time ,and as the DM story relates the child will have been placed in a burial shroud and I have no doubt some care will have been taken.

    But they won’t have been “dumped in an old septic tank” as you so disparaging and dishonestly put it.But that’s the angle you insist on because you are a trolling piece of leftist shit.

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  137. Nukuleka (290 comments) says:

    I know no-one much is interested in my personal dealings with Christchurch Libraries BUT I am reporting that I received a reply to my email enquiry about why they celebrate Matariki but don’t much celebrate Christmas and ignore Easter.

    It seems that they have an OBLIGATION under THE TREATY OF WAITANGI to celebrate Matariki (my library correspondent actually spelt it ‘Martariki’ which under the circumstances I thought rather fun.) She implied that it actually said they had to in THE TREATY!! (Go on, I dare anyone to hunt through THE TREATY and see if they can find the magic word ‘Matariki’)

    Funny that most of us grew up never having heard of this mythical New Year celebration. The media and Christchurch City Libraries are determined to put that right, however.

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  138. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    It wasn’t a scrap heap. They were there pending adoption or fostering. Many other countries were similar.And had similar stigma around illigitimacy.

    And ody, not too many countries had “advanced” welfare systems around that time either.Great depression ,WW2 etc.

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  139. Nukuleka (290 comments) says:

    There’s more to this story than meet the naked eye! Usual MSM anti Catholic beat-up. Come on, if Catholic nuns were involved they would have eaten the babies and not buried them in a septic tank.

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  140. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    nukeleka

    I’m interested ,and good on you for taking the arseholes to task. There aren’t enough concerned citizens like yourself around to force these rates wasters to their senses.Keep at the bastards.

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  141. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    nuku

    Nuns?They’d have thrown the children onto a fire using pitch forks personally blessed by the Satan of Rome!

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  142. cricko (289 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull thanks for having a try too.

    Sadly, you fell at the same point mikenmild did, you failed to address the question.

    Shall we try another question, maybe this will help you focus.

    “muslim immigration has proved to be a success in………….”

    Insert name of any western country, if you can.

    ( i could have added, ‘ because’ after …………but i’m not even being that tough on you.)

    Just the name of a country will be fine.

    Or, if that is too hard for you, try to complete this,

    “New Zealands experience with muslim immigrants will be different than any other western country because…….”

    Not just Ryan, anyone can have a go.

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  143. Odakyu-sen (553 comments) says:

    “And ody, not too many countries had “advanced” welfare systems around that time”

    I hear that the National Socialist German Workers’ Party had a pretty comprehensive welfare program in the 30s.

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  144. Pete George (23,415 comments) says:

    This headline could be a bit unfair: Cricket: Black Caps batting contenders fail to impress

    Read through to the last paragraph:

    The three contenders to open the batting for the Black Caps have failed to make an impression in New Zealand’s final warm-up match ahead of the first test against the West Indies.

    Peter Fulton, Tom Latham and Hamish Rutherford have scored two, eight and 10 respectively in the second innings of the three-day match against a Jamaican XI in Trelawny.

    New Zealand’s struggling at 65 for seven at stumps on day two, an overall lead of 146 runs.

    A new pitch will be used for the final day’s play, with the previous pitch deemed too dangerous.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/853604769-cricket–black-caps-batting-contenders-fail-to-impress

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  145. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull thanks for having a try too.

    Sadly, you fell at the same point mikenmild did, you failed to address the question.

    No, I didn’t. You’re asking us to evaluate the outcomes of banning or not banning the immigration of Muslims to New Zealand as positive or negative, and to explain what would be positive about not banning Muslim immigration.

    My answer remains: the positive outcome of not banning Muslim immigration is that New Zealand gets to continue to be a democracy, rather than some other kind of state that does not respect freedom of religion.

    What do you think is so great about getting rid of democracy?

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  146. Lucia Maria (2,245 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    Banning Muslim immigration would not stop us from being a democracy. However, I agree with you that we should not ban Muslim immigration. A couple of days ago I ago I had a conversation about what I would do instead, which is to make it difficult to be a ratbag Muslim here, and give precedence to refugees who are persecuted religious minorities from Islamic countries.

    But, not banning Muslim immigration might lead to the type of situation that has just been experienced in London, a story posted here by someone (I can’t remember who, either Kowtow or Hj), namely Stolen election in the heart of London. Now, that’s how you get rid of democracy – fake the votes and keep counting until you get the results you want!

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  147. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Ideally, we should make it difficult to be any kind of a ratbag here, but I suppose we could start with specific religions if you really want.

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  148. Albert_Ross (270 comments) says:

    Would it be fair to say that Ryan Sproull’s position is that the risk of importing undesirable terrorist-advocating activity is a price worth paying to remain a democratic freedom-respecting state?

    Alternatively put, that the cost of banning immigration by Muslims – that New Zealand ceases to be a democratic freedom-respecting state, and denies itself access to a pool of talented, well qualified and hard working people (for the Muslim community does include such) – is too great to justify the benefit – that a small risk is reduced to a very small risk?

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  149. Albert_Ross (270 comments) says:

    Why would we start with specific religions? Ratbags should be pursued and dealt with (if they’re here) and not let in if they want to come here, non-ratbags who meet the immigration criteria should be welcomed and left to go about their business. Why would you bring religion into that?

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  150. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Would it be fair to say that Ryan Sproull’s position is that the risk of importing undesirable terrorist-advocating activity is a price worth paying to remain a democratic freedom-respecting state?

    I would consider that fair to say, Albert.

    Why would we start with specific religions? Ratbags should be pursued and dealt with (if they’re here) and not let in if they want to come here, non-ratbags who meet the immigration criteria should be welcomed and left to go about their business. Why would you bring religion into that?

    Hell, why start with immigration? Let’s sterilise anyone who looks like they might raise kids who drink and drive, if we’re serious about protecting ourselves from credible threats.

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  151. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    A Sad Day for Rock….

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  152. publicwatchdog (2,464 comments) says:

    Justice Wylie to give his verdict on the John Banks electoral fraud case tomorrow, Thursday 5 June 2014 in the Auckland High Court at 2.15pm.

    Will ‘justice be done and be seen to be done’?

    We shall see ………

    Penny Bright

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  153. stigie (1,051 comments) says:

    When is the Auction Penny ?

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  154. Elaycee (4,348 comments) says:

    More bad news for the current tenant at Coatesville today, with the news four Music studios have joined the legal action against him. Reports named the four studios as Warner Music Group, UMG Recordings, Sony Music Entertainment and Capital Records.

    Unlucky.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60089586/music-studios-join-dotcom-fight.html

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  155. RightNow (6,958 comments) says:

    Gee Penny, with Dotcom, his wife and his accountant all telling different versions of their stories I’m not sure the outcome you’re hoping for is “justice”. What a shame you couldn’t just throw Banks in the river and find him guilty if he didn’t drown.

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  156. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    ….”It wasn’t a scrap heap. They were there pending adoption or fostering”…..

    If they survived the care of the Church. You might have passed over the part of the Daily Mail article that mentioned the “neglect” of the orphans. Regardless of the austerity of the time the physical & emotional neglect of a toddler is about as low as the human species goes.

    And just in case you find a way to worm your wretched church out of the “Tuam” instance have a read of: http://netk.net.au/AbuseCases/GoodwoodTracey.asp

    Then if you still don’t get it try Googling “acts of cruelty by nuns”……when I did it produced 50,500,000 hits.

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  157. Lucia Maria (2,245 comments) says:

    Nasska,

    I was whacked on the palm of the hand by a ruler wielded by a nun when I was 7. I can’t remember what I did – maybe talked when I shouldn’t have. Do you think I should be adding my pain to that list of acts of cruelty by nuns?

    Though, I wouldn’t be surprised if a great number of those hits are actually porn sites – seems to be a thing, this obsession with nuns. Even Californication did it. Not that I watch such a disgusting show.

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  158. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    …..” Do you think I should be adding my pain to that list of acts of cruelty by nuns?”…..

    After what we have read today your experience would probably border on the trivial Lucia.

    Presumably you had a loving home to seek emotional shelter in…..the Tuam kids were at the mercy of those deranged women charged with looking after them. No escape or respite from the cruelties.

    I accept that there are some things I’m not fated to understand & how you as a Christian woman can excuse & support such vermin is one of them.

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  159. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    What cruelties?What neglect?

    Where is the evidence?

    Easy to sling shit in support of ones bigotted obsession.Evidence is what counts.

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  160. Steve (North Shore) (4,537 comments) says:

    Where is crazy Judith? Did she get the bullet? Demerits say 60 and she was having a minor meltdown

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  161. Lucia Maria (2,245 comments) says:

    Nasska,

    I’ve read enough refutations of cruel treatment by nuns to be incredibly wary of reports, the Madelene Laundries being the most extreme example. And yet, that example shows up again and again and again, showing the power of a negative story released to the gullible public ready to believe it. I personally have known a number of nuns, having gone to school and been taught by them from age 5 to 16. None were cruel. How many have you known in your life, that you could believe what you do of them?

    Yes, I know this comment will open me up for attack in regards to what I said yesterday about Muslims. But I’m ready.

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  162. cha (3,914 comments) says:

    Bugger.

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  163. Lucia Maria (2,245 comments) says:

    Steve,

    I don’t know. We don’t tend to coexist on the blog that well, so I don’t keep track.

    Maybe she just needs a break? I tend to do that, go away to spend more time doing things like re-siliconing the shower or mowing the laws, or just full on cooking.

    Not much time for lounging around commenting all the time. Otherwise dinner could be late, like tonight! Though, I seem to be managing so far – potatoes are in the oven, all is progressing.

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  164. Viking2 (11,332 comments) says:

    A jury has accepted that a Christchurch man could have given consent for a sex act with another man while suffering from alcohol-induced amnesia.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10118997/Drunk-man-consented-to-sex

    So what happened in Mirimar then?

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  165. Lucia Maria (2,245 comments) says:

    Viking,

    Well, if the sex act had been performed on a woman, then the prevailing opinion is that drunk women can’t consent, therefore it’s rape. Be interesting to see what will happen here.

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  166. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    kowtow

    From the reference in my 11.18am.

    ….”And from the comments section of the article:

    ….”I spent the first three years of my life in one of these homes and yes the nuns were very cruel seeing them cots brought it back to me we used to be kept in theme cots all day and when we cried the used to just keep hitting us”…..

    Please define cruelty…..it’s been nearly fifty years since I left school & the meaning may have changed.

    And from my earlier link:

    ….”I vividly remember being told that I was not worthy and than no one wanted me. This has stayed with me my whole life. This statement was said to me every day. It was drummed into me how worthless I was and that no one would ever want me. I don’t remember a day whilst at the orphanage when those things were not said to me. “……

    And

    ….” The nun would stand over me and yell and scream at me to clean up my mess. The nun used to make me feel so ashamed because I had been sick in front of everyone. It made me feel so bad. I could not understand why they kept force feeding me all those things when they knew how sick it would make me. Maybe they just enjoyed humiliating me all the time, I don’t know. “…..

    And

    ….”All I remember is getting hit very hard for wetting my bed. But worse was to come, because the girl who had helped me really got hit over and over again. To this day, I have never forgiven myself that the lovely girl who helped me got beaten so badly, all because she helped me”…….

    What cruelties?What neglect? …….you need help.

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  167. Lucia Maria (2,245 comments) says:

    I’ve been reading more about this apparent, ‘stolen election’ in London. The journos from The Telegraph are gunning for the guy: Lutfur Rahman adviser: there will be street violence unless people stop complaining about Tower Hamlets election . Scary that the police found evidence of fraud in the previous election, but didn’t gather enough evidence to be able to do anything about it. Maybe they need help from our police force here in NZ, given that they’ve taken John Banks to court.

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  168. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    I need help?

    No n’arse you need help with your obsession.

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  169. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    What about your obsession with absolving the curch of any crime?

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  170. cha (3,914 comments) says:

    What cruelties?What neglect?

    One child died every two weeks for decades and that’s your reaction. You’re sick at heart – a despicable sack of shit.

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  171. Lucia Maria (2,245 comments) says:

    Cha,

    One child died every two weeks for decades…

    Out of how many children?

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  172. SGA (980 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria at 7:15 pm

    Out of how many children?

    250ish from memory.

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  173. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Yeah, keep a sense of proportion, cha. There might have been thousands in that orphanage and so one every two weeks would be a miniscule death rate.

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  174. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    Fuck you cha.Another bigot.

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  175. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    Some 300 died in 3 years between 43 and 46. Very easily explained by the malnutrition,TB and other massive problems associated with the deprivations of WW2 and a relatively poor country.

    but hey let’s blame the evil nuns.Easy.

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  176. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    Milky

    Absolved of what crime, specifically at Tuam?

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  177. cha (3,914 comments) says:

    Yes, must keep sense of proportion..
    //

    .

    Expect the usual Defenders of the Faith to trot out their well-practised ”few bad apples” lines. ”The vast majority of Catholic institutions did great good for Irish children,” they’ll tell us. They’ll wring their hands and drip sincerely that times were different then and nobody knew how bad it was, but the simple truth is they’ll be wrong, perhaps wilfully wrong, to say nobody knew.

    We knew. We just didn’t care.

    In 1946, Ireland’s culture of cruelty and indifference to the most vulnerable was condemned by the most famous priest in the world and we ignored him.

    The internationally-acclaimed hero of “Boys Town”, Roscommon-born Father Edward Flanagan, visited the land of his birth and was horrified by what he saw here, denouncing Ireland’s treatment of children in Church and State care as “a scandal, un-Christlike, and wrong”.

    Flanagan, a reluctant celebrity since the 1938 film starring Spencer Tracey had immortalised him, had founded Boys Town in 1917 as a centre of education and shelter for poor and neglected boys in Omaha, Nebraska. His philosophy was simple and powerful: “There is no such thing as a bad boy”.

    Father Flanagan treated those in his care with compassion and respect and his kindness showed such success that he became known as “the world’s foremost expert on boys’ training and youth care.”

    Flanagan told a public meeting in Cork’s Savoy Cinema: “You are the people who permit your children and the children of your communities to go into these institutions of punishment. You can do something about it.” Calling Ireland’s institutions “a disgrace to the nation,” he said “I do not believe that a child can be reformed by lock and key and bars, or that fear can ever develop a child’s character.”

    Nobody listened.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/mass-grave-galway-tuam-1494001-May2014/

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  178. Lucia Maria (2,245 comments) says:

    Sorry, I’ve lost track. Are we talking about Ireland or Nasska’s link from Australia? Or are they all just getting merged into this great big pot of all catholic nuns are evil and too many kids die in their orphanages?

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  179. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    The “bigots” keep piling up!

    You’d go along with putting an end to bigotry by criminalizing any dissenting point of view I presume kowtow.

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  180. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria

    Yes.

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  181. SGA (980 comments) says:

    kowtow at 7:23 pm

    Some 300 died in 3 years between 43 and 46. Very easily explained by the malnutrition,TB and other massive problems associated with the deprivations of WW2 and a relatively poor country.

    Again from memory, that was of the “one report even claimed that” variety rather than the evidence from the death registry wasn’t it?

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  182. Lucia Maria (2,245 comments) says:

    Nasska,

    I’m cooking dinner. Steak is now on. Brain is half here and half making sure things aren’t burning. I have no idea what your yes means!

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  183. SGA (980 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria at 7:25 pm

    Sorry, I’ve lost track. Are we talking about Ireland or Nasska’s link from Australia? Or are they all just getting merged into this great big pot of all catholic nuns are evil and too many kids die in their orphanages?

    I’m not actually on an anti-nun crusade, I’m more in “the good ol’ days weren’t necessarily so” camp.

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  184. Viking2 (11,332 comments) says:

    Talking road safey.

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  185. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    Lucia

    Don’t cremate the steak….that is sacrilege!

    By “yes” I meant the topic has widened out. Abuse is abuse regardless of it’s geographical position.

    It would appear that the 1930’s to 1960 were hazardous times to be an orphan.

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  186. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    Some reflection on the issue ,rather than just the usual bigotted Catholic bashing shite that goes on here.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/its-not-just-the-state-that-needs-to-say-sorry-to-magdalene-survivors-221865.html

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  187. SGA (980 comments) says:

    nasska at 7:37 pm

    Don’t cremate the steak….that is sacrilege!

    How that was overlooked in Leviticus, I’ve never understood.

    It would appear that the 1930′s to 1960 were hazardous times to be an orphan.

    Unlike, say, Dicken’s England ;-)

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  188. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    I read the Irish Examiner article.

    Nice deflection…..an atrocity shared with the community is an atrocity halved I always say. :)

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  189. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    ….”Unlike, say, Dicken’s England”…..

    We didn’t really see much change until the ascendancy of the dreaded “progs” SGA. :)

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  190. Viking2 (11,332 comments) says:

    No wonder so many despise the Catholics.
    History of genocide no better than the Muslims.

    And some want to excuse their behavoir so I say unto you, show us where the Bible tells you to treat another human being in this way.
    No wonder you have to fill the plate each week.

    Worse we have now another one going to be elected to our Parliament.

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  191. SGA (980 comments) says:

    nasska at 7:58 pm

    ….”Unlike, say, Dicken’s England”…..
    We didn’t really see much change until the ascendancy of the dreaded “progs” SGA. :)

    Dicken’s was probably a dreaded “prog” himself. He was a shit to his wife, so there you go.

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  192. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    ….” He was a shit to his wife”…..

    She probably burnt his steak SGA. :)

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  193. kowtow (8,091 comments) says:

    Not just the Church .Debated in parliament in 1934.So the problem was openly discussed and everyone was therefor aware.See Registrars report of 1 in 3 illigitimate births resulted in death within the year ,1924.

    So all the high dudgeon and anti Catholic bullshit from all and sundry is hypocrisy.

    Not deflection n’asrehole.The bigger picture.Courts sent people to those places.Protestants too.

    Blaming evil nuns is too easy.

    http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1934020700036?opendocument

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  194. cha (3,914 comments) says:

    Blaming evil nuns is too easy.

    Indeed, we can blame the Bon Secours nuns, the brides of Christ, for dumping the bodies of the 800 children who died in their care in a septic tank.

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  195. SGA (980 comments) says:

    kowtow at 8:09 pm

    Not just the Church .Debated in parliament in 1934.So the problem was openly discussed and everyone was therefor aware.See Registrars report of 1 in 3 illigitimate births resulted in death within the year ,1924.

    And still nothing was done – by the state or the churches.

    Courts sent people to those places.Protestants too.

    Not only the courts, I think. If I’m remembering correctly, if a poor woman was sent there, she was expected to stay and work there for a year, then leave without the child. They provided a slightly different service for the more well-to-do. For a cash sum, the mother could turn up, discretely have the unfortunate “accident”, and leave as soon as she was able. (Happy to be corrected if I’ve misremembered)

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  196. Johnboy (15,858 comments) says:

    When I had a bit of trouble with my septic my tank pumper told me to toss toss in some roadkill possums and to chuck in some brewers yeast!

    Worked a treat no odour, looks pinkish like it should.

    Wonder if the Nun’s got some Guinness yeast to add to theirs? :)

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  197. nasska (11,047 comments) says:

    A professor was delivering a lecture on Philosophy at the University.

    “By the year 2100, religion will disappear from the civilised world,” he said to the students.

    A Muslim bloke stood up.

    “But professor, currently Islam is spreading and will increase even more by then,” he said.

    “Abdul,” said the lecturer, “I was talking about the civilised world.”

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  198. Johnboy (15,858 comments) says:

    My wife burnt the steak once. It was back in 1985. I gave her a right bollocking about it.

    She told me I could fucking cook it from then on so I have.

    I get to eat lovely steak since then, cooked to perfection by me the master.

    I get to cook the steak and the spuds and the veg and do the dishes while she watches TV.

    Taught the bitch who’s boss alright! :)

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  199. big bruv (13,650 comments) says:

    Johnboy

    Good man, I hope you told her that any more of her shit would mean that she had to make the bloody bed on her own.

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  200. Yvette (2,758 comments) says:

    1985, Johnboy, I remember that.
    We could see the smoke from Avalon Tower Block and to start with thought it was the Taita Cemetery again.
    Then nothing much happened that was newsworthy until John Banks cut Sam Brackenov off Radio Pacific one morning in 1997 :-)

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  201. goldnkiwi (1,244 comments) says:

    Why is the cake bake news. Clearly the couple instead of just finding a baker happy to oblige went running to the media. Rights are/should be reciprocal. You have a right to ask, I have a right to refuse, on any matter!!!

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  202. Ryan Sproull (7,092 comments) says:

    Nasska,

    I’ve read enough refutations of cruel treatment by nuns to be incredibly wary of reports, the Madelene Laundries being the most extreme example. And yet, that example shows up again and again and again, showing the power of a negative story released to the gullible public ready to believe it. I personally have known a number of nuns, having gone to school and been taught by them from age 5 to 16. None were cruel. How many have you known in your life, that you could believe what you do of them?

    Yes, I know this comment will open me up for attack in regards to what I said yesterday about Muslims. But I’m ready.

    I think just saying that demonstrates a level of self-awareness more or less unprecedented on Kiwiblog comments, so expect no attack from me ; )

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  203. SGA (980 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull at 10:12 pm

    Yes, I know this comment will open me up for attack in regards to what I said yesterday about Muslims. But I’m ready.

    I think just saying that demonstrates a level of self-awareness more or less unprecedented on Kiwiblog comments, so expect no attack from me ; )

    Really it depends on how those poor steaks turned out. I’ve been worried about them all night.

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  204. Left Right and Centre (2,910 comments) says:

    The gay cake thing . . . you can’t have your cock and eat it too ?

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