Kiwi killed in Syria

June 8th, 2014 at 8:19 am by David Farrar

The HoS reports:

A New Zealander has been killed while fighting in – the first Kiwi casualty in the civil war.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT) said it is aware of “unconfirmed reports” a New Zealander has died fighting in the Middle East country.

It did not say when the death happened but confirmed the ministry provided consular assistance.

MFAT refused to release any further details, citing several reasons including privacy and a threat to national security.

The Kiwi’s death was also mentioned in a public statement by Syria’s permanent representative in New York, in which he referred to “criminals, mercenaries” from around the world.

“Thousands of innocent Syrians got killed, thousands were wounded, because of so-called cross border terrorists. They call themselves roundly speaking jihadists, they are not.

“For your information some of the terrorists who got killed came from Burkina Faso, some of them came from New Zealand … this is just to let you understand how absurd the issue we are dealing with.”

I’m not sure if the NZer is an immigrant, or was born here, but either way it is disturbing that one or more NZers are fighting in a civil war in Syria. If they are immigrants, then it suggests we need better targeting to exclude extremists.

A spokesman for the New Zealand-based Syrian Solidarity, Ali Akil, argued the fighters were not terrorists, but were helping to depose the murderous Bashar al-Assad regime. “If there is any terrorism, then it is the terrorism of Assad and his associates,” said Akil.

Banning passports would not stop New Zealanders from travelling to Syria to take up arms, he said.

“If they want to get there, they will get there. I would hope that the New Zealand public does care about what’s happening over there.

“We don’t encourage people to go and fight. They don’t need fighters; they do need weapons and food.”

The Assad regime is loathsome and should go. But some of the opposition groups are little better.

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130 Responses to “Kiwi killed in Syria”

  1. Longknives (4,767 comments) says:

    Surely just another innocent Kiwi backpacker on his ‘Big OE’??
    Maybe took a wrong turn? Just like that innocent ‘backpacker’ killed by Drones in Yemen? (The one who by pure coincidence studied radical Islam at a Chch Mosque..)

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  2. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    “If they are immigrants, then it suggests we need better targeting to exclude extremists.”

    That’s easy.
    Exclude practicing muslims.

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  3. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Bet this becomes John Key’s fault! “Tojo” Scumliffe will have orders from the Thief and the Terrorist sympathiser to give a Little-prepared press release that will make National and its leader the cause.

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  4. duggledog (1,559 comments) says:

    I would never allow Muslims into NZ, I’ve never seen any good reasons why. Plenty of other immigrants available from more civilised countries.

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  5. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    “But some of the opposition groups are little better.”

    I’ll go further.
    Some of them are far worse.

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  6. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    Bet this becomes John Key’s fault! “Tojo” Scumliffe will have orders from the Thief and the Terrorist sympathiser to give a Little-prepared press release that will make National and its leader the cause.
    as usual from igm hatred and scorn,you must have a dawn breaker with your partner pet whatever it could calm you down…

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  7. wiseowl (899 comments) says:

    After seeing the performance on the news last night outside the mosque in Avondale, I say ,don’t let them in and if they are here pack their bags.

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  8. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Oh, and more important,

    DON’T CALL HIM A KIWI!!

    And they agree, they will call themselves muslims first.
    They are members of the ummah, not kiwis.

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  9. FeralScrote (220 comments) says:

    The Muntos` of the world don`t appear to understand that these “jihadis” are not common criminals that can simply be arrested and given a fair trial,they are enemy combatants belonging to organisations that have declared war on civilisation.
    And as combatants they are fair game to be taken out by any means necessary .

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  10. lilman (960 comments) says:

    This guy is dead,
    If its confirmed,good.

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  11. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    “I’m not sure if the NZer is an immigrant, or was born here, but either way it is disturbing that one or more NZers are fighting in a civil war in Syria. If they are immigrants, then it suggests we need better targeting to exclude extremists.”

    There were NZers fighting in the Croatia/Slovenia/Bosnia civil wars, did you moan about Kiwi participation in those conflicts?

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  12. Dave Mann (1,224 comments) says:

    Although I dislike Islam intensely and jihadis even more, I don’t see that we can practicably stop people from fighting overseas for a cause that they strongly believe in. But what we sshould be doing here in NZ is limiting the spread of Islam, stopping Muslim immigration and carefully monitoring its adherents with every means at our disposal.

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  13. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    Why do you believe that Syrian citizens fighting against the Assad regime are extremists?

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  14. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    I’d like to think of Assads’ forces killing every single foreign jihadist supporting the attempt to overthrow his legitimate ,but agreed not very nice regime,there and that these fuckers never return to the west.

    He’d be doing our security services a huge favourand eliminating future threats to our peace and security.

    It’s beyond me how idiots like Obummer,Camoron and Hollandaise, who bleat on about the law ,human rights and international relations could even contemplate supporting his violent overthrow.In so doing they have destabalised the region and share in the guilt of the deaths of innocent civilians, the spread of disease and the ruining of millions of lives that were being peacefully led .

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2639413/British-jihadists-bloodthirsty-Syria-says-rebel-commander-blamed-beheadings-crucifixions.html

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  15. tom hunter (4,899 comments) says:

    It’s a pity they can’t both lose. – HT, Henry Kissenger

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  16. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    “Exclude practicing muslims.”

    That’s a bit selective, excluding a large number of people because of problems with a small minority.

    Wouldn’t it be fairer to have a broader exclusion and exclude anyone who is religious? Otherwise it just looks like another Christian crusade.

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  17. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    You really do talk some absolute shit at times, Pete.

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  18. Captain Pugwash (98 comments) says:

    I doubt the Assad regime is any better than the fascist regimes of the ’30’s & ’40’s. Plenty of Americans fought in WW2 in China against Japan & then in Europe against the Nazis, before the USA was in the war. Then there were the International Brigades in the Spanish civil war. What is different about Syria? Should the Syrian people wait until the UN intervenes? It didn’t to Tutsi people of Rwanda any good.

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  19. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Who cares if excluding all Muslims “looks like another crusade”? We’ll be needing another crusade if we let the bastards get to 2% of the population, let alone 5%..

    And as it’s impossible to tell a so called moderate Muslim from another, the only alternative is to stop immigration from any Muslim country.. As the 9/11 bombers proved, they are quite capable of adopting western dress and even shaving off the sacred beard it is their duty to grow in order to blend in..

    I’ll go further…notwithstanding my views on other issues, any party that has “no more Muslims” as a policy this election has my vote.

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  20. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi/David Garrett – can you show that “practicing muslims” getting through our immigration screening are a disproportionate problem compared to other religious or ethnic groups? Or are you the one talking shit?

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  21. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Pete: You are deliberately being obtuse…Many – including me – have said here in the past that based on overseas experience, Muslims are generally not much of a problem until they reach 2% of the population as they have in Australia(ours is presently just under 1%). At 2% you start to get strident calls for “Muslim only” swimming pools and other public facilities, and physical attacks on “immodest” women etc.

    If you allow it to get to 5% you get the ghettoization that has occurred in Britain France and Germany, and demands for the removal of Christian religious symbols like nativity scenes, crosses, and even Christmas trees. Noone has argued that there is some magical reason these ills would not happen here if we let Muslim immigration rise. We have seen the first signs of what WILL happen at the Avondale mosque. We would be utterly stupid – having seen what happens in other countries – if we allow any more Muslim immigration.

    I see Muslim immigration as a cancer…presently entirely operable and survivable, but allow it to grow and it will almost certainly become terminal.

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  22. Bob (497 comments) says:

    I don’t believe any New Zealand citizen or resident should fight in wars or trouble spots without the permission of the government. If they do they should have their citizenship or residency revoked and be deemed to be a citizen of the country they have gone to. If they are not taking part in fighting but simply being there then they are taking their chances and can’t complain they are in the way of rocket firing drones or any other weapons.

    There are foreigners living here who still have feelings for their home countries. For instance Thai residents here are concerned about what is happening in Thailand especially when they have family there. However they have made their choices to live here. If they want to go back and take part in the trouble they should not go back as New Zealand residents or citizens. They should lose their right to come back here.

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  23. Captain Pugwash (98 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett.
    Are you suggesting that we should not have religious freedom in NZ?

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  24. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    Another Christian crusade?

    Typical cultural marxist ,attacking the crusades.

    The crusades were simply a war to recover Christian lands from Muslim invaders. People who disparage the crusades are people who want the Muslim to over run the west.

    Look at modern Turkey. Invaders from central Asia who have since ethnically cleansed the country.They also currently illegally occupy a portion of Cyprus. Egypt was a majority Christian country until around 1200 AD. It is today a backward repressive Muslim shit hole.

    We are currently celebrating the 70th anniversary of the Normandy invasion. That was a modern crusade and at the time was posited as a religious movement.Knock that crusade you pricks.

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  25. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    David Garrett – wouldn’t your views have clashed with the liberal side of ACT. Especially the current ACT?

    You are deliberately being obtuse…Many – including me – have said here in the past that based on overseas experience, Muslims are generally not much of a problem until they reach 2% of the population as they have in Australia(ours is presently just under 1%). At 2% you start to get strident calls for “Muslim only” swimming pools and other public facilities, and physical attacks on “immodest” women etc.

    Funny accusing me of being obtuse.

    Where is your evidence that when Muslims get to 2% of the population “you start to get strident calls for “Muslim only” swimming pools and other public facilities, and physical attacks on “immodest” women etc”?

    When do you project that the New Zealand Muslim population will reach 2%?

    And why do you think New Zealand would be exactly the same as “overseas experience”?

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  26. Gulag1917 (930 comments) says:

    Occupational hazard; NZers or immigrants have a high risk of getting killed.
    Simple solution don’t go overseas and fight.

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  27. OneTrack (3,121 comments) says:

    Pete – Why do you think we won’t have the same experience? Because we are “special”?

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  28. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    PG: I don’t care if my views are the same as ACT; I am no longer an MP

    Use Google if you doubt what I have said about problems with Muslims in Australia. I am sure you know what happens.

    I have no idea when the Muslim population will reach 2% – I hope never.

    Why on earth would our experience be any different from countries which have allowed their Muslim population to rise? The UK, France, and Germany are very different cultures. They have all experienced exactly the same problems – culminating in ghettos where even the Police fear to tread.

    Why don’t you tell us why our experience would be any different from those other countries’?

    Pugwash: Of course I support religious freedom. That is quite a different issue from allowing into our country adherents of a religion/way of life which is utterly alien to our values, and which itself seeks to restrict religious freedom. Actually Islam seeks to restrict freedom full stop, forget about the “religious” bit…

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  29. Captain Pugwash (98 comments) says:

    @ kowtow
    I think the Christian Crusades were more about reclaiming the “Holy Land” for the Catholic Church, which was & still is based in the Vatican in Rome. The “holy Land” had been the home of the Jewish people & then the jolly old Romans invaded, when Constantine decided the state religion was roman Catholic Christianity, Jerusalem became the “Holy Land”. The truth is that the Crusaders slaughtered thousands of Jews, Muslims & Christians they didn’t like. Then the Muslims slaughtered thousands of Jews, Christians & Muslims they didn’t like (or was it the other way round?) Truth is Christians & Muslims have been slaughtering each other any anyone they don’t agree with for over a thousand years. The main difference is that western culture has been able to separate church & state.

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  30. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    “I have no idea when the Muslim population will reach 2% – I hope never.”

    So you don’t know when we would reach the supposed danger level (and it is possibly very unlikely).

    You also fail to differentiate from Muslims from different countries where the risks may be far smaller, for example India, South East Asia and Fiji, where much of our Muslim immigration is from.

    Do you have no association with ACT at all any more?

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  31. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    OneTrack: Perhaps it’s because we have those “special” early immigrants? You know the ones…the greatest navigators and seafarers since the Phoenicians…those whose culture we should admire so much, despite a few awkward bits like widespread cannibalism and population control by infanticide…

    Peter: It’s none of your fucking business what my relationship with ACT is these days…answer the questions I and others have asked you, specifically about why our experience would be any different from other countries’…or just shut up.

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  32. Gulag1917 (930 comments) says:

    PG
    What makes NZ so special that it will escape the pattern that has happened in every other similar nation e.g. England?

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  33. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    “Of course I support religious freedom. That is quite a different issue from allowing into our country adherents of a religion/way of life which is utterly alien to our values…”

    Apart from the obvious contradiction – what’s this “our values”? My values are different to those of a number of religious values but they have as much right to their’s as I do, within our democratic and legal system.

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  34. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    Calm down David, getting angry when you’re called on your discriminatory opinion doesn’t help your case, some Muslims can be more civil than that.

    I recall there have been other Sunday mornings when you haven’t been at your most civil.

    New Zealand is very different to England. For a start we have no colonial connections with the most at risk Muslim countries. And we aren’t in the EU. And we are on the other side of the world. And we have a fairly unique cultural and religious mix with much more tolerance (with the notable exceptions).

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  35. Gulag1917 (930 comments) says:

    Peaceful Moslems
    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/fury-at-sydney-protests-20120915-25z0a.html

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  36. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    If, like the two killed in Yemen, this extremist has been at a Christchurch mosque, expect the Christchurch Press to print handouts from the mosque’s spokesmen declaring the extremist wasn’t noticed at the mosque and must have been lured into extremism by that vile Wester invention, the Internet.

    Then the Christchurch Press will print an editorial affirming the mosque’s handouts and telling readers they can relax, that Christchurch is safe in the hands of the mosque under the super-alert watch of the Christchurch Press.

    NZ’s immigration policy has been a shambles that hasn’t coped with the rise of Islamic extremist terrorism. Remember how not long after the New York twin towers attack, it emerged the granting of visas to those applying in the Middle East was in the hands of part-time, local Thai staff in the Bangkok office? Remember the con executive with a fake doctorate who brought in in-laws from the islands (they were allowed to stay after the executive left)?

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  37. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (891 comments) says:

    Bros. Chill on for a second.

    All we need to do is blame this on John Key. He is responsible for everything that happens in this world. So why not blame this also on him?

    Wait for Norman, Tuatara, Keith Locke (whatever his name is), Minty Minto and the nutters who write in nanny Herald to scream human right abuse. The saviour of human privacy DotFatCon will raise his voice against GCSB…. NZ politics is a joke.

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  38. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    ‘We have no colonial connections…….”

    So? We’re connected by the fricken UN and so called refugee conventions.

    Implying that the hordes are making their way to Britain because of colonial connections is bullshit.

    They go there because Britain is a soft touch.

    The west needs to harden up.

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  39. OneTrack (3,121 comments) says:

    Pete – “My values are different to those of a number of religious values but they have as much right to their’s as I do, within our democratic and legal system.”

    So you would be happy for Sharia Law to be introduced into New Zealand?

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  40. Daphne Whitethigh (13 comments) says:

    What appalling bigotry in some of these comments. Shameful and depressing.

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  41. tom hunter (4,899 comments) says:

    Different day, same arguments. I don’t think it makes much sense to talk about the percentage of the whole population that is Muslim. Here’s this poignant piece from Greg Sheridan in The Australian in 2011: How I Lost Faith in Multiculturalism. Australia is not that different from us so I would not be too arrogant about assuming we’ll cope better with Muslim immigration:

    IN 1993, my family and I moved into Belmore in southwest Sydney. It is the next suburb to Lakemba. When I first moved there I loved it. We bought a house just behind Belmore Sports Ground, in those days the home of my beloved Bulldogs rugby league team. Transport was great, 20 minutes to the city in the train, 20 minutes to the airport.

    On the other side of Belmore, away from Lakemba, there were lots of Chinese, plenty of Koreans, growing numbers of Indians, and on the Lakemba side lots of Lebanese and other Arabs. That was an attraction, too. I like Middle Eastern food. I like Middle Eastern people. The suburb still had the remnants of its once big Greek community and a commanding Greek Orthodox church.

    But in the nearly 15 years we lived there the suburb changed, and much for the worse.

    I was shocked to discover the growth of jihadi culture in Lakemba. We used to go to its main street for shopping and for food.

    One day, waiting for a pizza order, I wandered into the Muslim bookshop. I was astounded to see titles such as The International Jew or The Truth about the Pope, amid a welter of anti-Semitic, anti-Christian and pro-extremist literature.

    Due to the brilliant and fearless reporting of this paper’s Richard Kerbaj, who spoke perfect Arabic, we found that at a number of the mosques in the area outright hatred was being preached: anti-Semitic, misogynist, conspiratorial. Most of the time, these sermons didn’t advocate violence. The speakers were what Britain’s David Cameron has called “non-violent extremists”.

    All depressingly familiar to stories from Europe, whether France, Britain or even Sweden. Sheridan does not shy away from the conclusion:

    Does Islam itself have a role in these problems? The answer is complex and nuanced but it must be a qualified, and deeply reluctant, yes.

    This is the only explanation consistent with the fact other immigrant communities, which may have experienced difficult circumstances in the first generation, don’t display the same characteristics in the second generation.

    But there is a deeper reason as well. As the great scholar of Islam, Bernard Lewis, has written: “The community of Islam was church and state in one, with the two indistinguishably interwoven.”

    This isn’t just a theoretical observation. It means that imams at mosques tend to be preaching about politics, and doing so from a cosmology deeply influenced by paranoia and conspiracy.

    Many Australian Islamic institutions receive funding from Saudi Arabia, but I know from my work in Southeast Asia and Europe that the Saudis almost always fund an extremist interpretation of Islam.

    To have concerns about these matters is not racism or xenophobia. It is reasonable.

    He also points out that these characteristics are:

    … are simply not true for Buddhists or Confucians or Sikhs or Jews or Christians, and to pretend so, to make all religions seem equal, is to simply deny reality.

    But people not exposed to such things do continue to deny reality, something for which Sheridan provides one explanation:

    Mark Latham once remarked that the journalists and commentators who most vigorously support big immigration in Sydney live in the eastern suburbs, the inner city or the north shore. They don’t live in the western suburbs where life is much more hard scrabble.

    In coming to terms with this reality Sheridan also has words that should give pause to left-wingers:

    Coming to these sombre conclusions marks a crisis of faith for me. All my life I have been, intellectually and as a matter of personal experience, strongly supportive of a big and completely racially non-discriminatory immigration program. This grew out of my convictions, my world view, and also my personal experience.

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  42. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    PG: At first glance your 11.22 has some merit…but then Australia – for this purpose at least – is in exactly the same position as us: no “colonial connections” and on the far side of the world. Mr Google will inform you of numerous instances where Muslims have caused trouble in that country because they object – for example – to our “allowing” women to dress as they wish.

    Daphne: Welcome to KB. You are a new commenter. Perhaps YOU could tell us why our experience of Muslim immigration above 2% would be any different from that of other countries’? And perhaps you could tell us whether you would support sharia law being introduced – even in a limited way – to this country.

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  43. altiora (279 comments) says:

    “The Assad regime is loathsome and should go. But some of the opposition groups are little better.”

    What rubbish. The opposition groups are Islamo-fascists; they are far far worse and have killed, beheaded and amputated with wild abandon. Assad, as with the regimes in Egypt, Libya and Tunisia, at least provided stability and allowed religious minorities, women and homosexuals to go about their business largely unmolested. Yes they were not nice people.

    Now these countries are being wracked by Islamists and their 7th century views.

    Why did Obama and the west support this?

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  44. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    “Daphne Whitethigh” – the post at 11.42 by its choice of pseudonym shows some bigotry itself – “white” and “thigh”.

    Re Tom Hunter’s 11.44 post reporting Mark Latham’s remark :

    … the journalists and commentators who most vigorously support big immigration in Sydney live in the eastern suburbs, the inner city or the north shore. They don’t live in the western suburbs where life is much more hard scrabble…

    You will find the same in Auckland. The multiculturalists, apart from the Marxist ones, overwhelmingly live in leafy, predominantly white suburbs.

    I would be surprised if the reporters and chiefs of the mosque-defending Christchurch Press live in the city’s poor suburbs where you can see refugee women walking three or four metres behind their men.

    If NZ wants to draw its migrants from a wide range of cultures, NZ needs to focus on assimilation, not multiculturalism.

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  45. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    tom hunter: Thanks for that…Daphne, perhaps you should read that before responding to my invitation…In fact everyone should read that piece very carefully.

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  46. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    “So you would be happy for Sharia Law to be introduced into New Zealand?”

    No but I don’t think there’s any chance it will be. New Zealand is one of the most effective countries at separating religion and politics, apart from a few old Christian traditions that don’t do any harm (I’d prefer to see all religious practices removed from politics but don’t see it as a big deal).

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  47. Gulag1917 (930 comments) says:

    I am sure that Moslems in their mosques and schools will make a special case for New Zealand.

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  48. gump (1,650 comments) says:

    There seems to be some confusion about where refugees to NZ actually come from.

    On average we accept 712 refugees per year and the largest group (by nationality) are Burmese people from Myanmar (a non-Islamic country).

    Here’s a table that shows the detail for each nationality we have accepted over the last ten years.

    http://imgur.com/Nmpm3hk.png

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  49. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    Mr Google will inform you of numerous instances where Muslims have caused trouble in that country because they object – for example – to our “allowing” women to dress as they wish.

    So that would mean it’s different in Australia to here then?

    You have said there’s quite a few Muslims causing problems in Australia and England – should we ban all immigration from those countries in case some of the trouble makers come from there?

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  50. tom hunter (4,899 comments) says:

    In fact everyone should read that piece very carefully.

    I’ve posted it twice before on KB, here and here.

    Looking at those threads from 2011 I note that the link was not commented on at all by the usual suspects, not even indirectly, presumably because Sheridan’s bonafides mean he can’t be called a racist, xenophobe or RWNJ, and also because his conclusions, born of both personal experience as well as analysis and reporting research, are simply not acceptable.

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  51. Gulag1917 (930 comments) says:

    Have a referendum on multiculturalism.

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  52. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    The joys of state mandated multiculturalism.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651108/Rural-school-deemed-white-Ofsted-visits-London-mix-ethnic-pupils.html

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  53. altiora (279 comments) says:

    @ Jack5 agree with your view of multiculturalists; Ranginui Walker hinted at the same observation recently when talking about Maori dislike of Asian immigration. Dr Walker saiid:

    “Biculturalism is the basic dynamic of New Zealand because the tangata whenua is the base culture. Those people that oppose that ideology try to diffuse it by talking multiculturalism. Their experience of multiculturalism is ethnic food,” Walker said.

    You can disagree with his analysis of biculturalism. But he’s spot on about the rest. People have no idea how much disruption that suddenly taking large numbers of people from disparate cultures causes. Of course, if they live quarantined in leafy largely white suburbs they don’t need to — until the first bombs or race riots start.

    I expect Sydney to be a hotbed of racial strife in the next 20 years. I know many Ockers are starting to feel very uncomfortable.

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  54. Captain Pugwash (98 comments) says:

    “So you would be happy for Sharia Law to be introduced into New Zealand?”

    I’d be against Sharia Law, as much as Roman Catholic Law, Orthodox Jewish Law as well as any other religious law.

    @Tom Hunter – I’ve faced some frighting threats from Orthodox Greeks in Wellington when I dated a Greek girl from my high school back in the ’80. She ended up being sent to live with relatives in Greece, funnily enough she was allowed a far more liberal lifestyle back in Greece, than she could have within the Greek community in Wellington. Interestingly, it was OK for the Greek boys to date “English” girls & fuck them, but the Greek girls had to stay “pure”. I remember a few Greek boys back then who dealt drugs and ran prostitutes. This was considered OK as long as they didn’t deal drugs to other Greeks & no Greek girls were involved in prostitution.

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  55. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    You’ve gone awfully quiet Daphne…still formulating a considered response? Or are we all incorrigible racists and xenophobes??

    Pugwash: during my early days as a lawyer in Wellington I had reason to come up against members of the Greek community…it seemed that they had a rather too cosy relationship with the local constabulary…

    PG: How many Muslims are there in Dunedin? Is there a mosque?

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  56. Manolo (13,840 comments) says:

    If the bugger was “fighting” alongside jidahists, I’ll be the first one to rejoice at his demise.

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  57. Gulag1917 (930 comments) says:

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  58. Manolo (13,840 comments) says:

    Muslims, vile muslims, and more wretched muslims are the source of riots and problems everywhere!

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  59. Captain Pugwash (98 comments) says:

    “…Pugwash: during my early days as a lawyer in Wellington I had reason to come up against members of the Greek community…it seemed that they had a rather too cosy relationship with the local constabulary…”

    You mean similar to what the Chow Brothers have now?

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  60. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    DG

    There is a mosque and they’re looking to expand.I’d say most of the local Musselmen are uni students.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/281675/muslim-school-leader-dismayed-reaction

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  61. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Gump posted at 12:0:

    June 8th, 2014 at 12:00 pm

    There seems to be some confusion about where refugees to NZ actually come from….
    On average we accept 712 refugees per year and the largest group (by nationality) are Burmese people from Myanmar (a non-Islamic country).

    You are aware Gump, that many of Burma’s Muslim minority are fleeing because of persecution by the Buddhist majority? Refugees from Burma a more likely to be Muslim than their percentage of Burma’s population would suggest.

    Captain Pugwash’s (12.20 post) experience trying to date Greek girls decades ago doesn’t equate with trans-cultural transactions with Muslim extremists, which is zero.

    Greek girls who marry non-Greeks don’t face the death penalty, as the now-Christian woman in Sudan does. A number of Cretan women married NZ former soldiers after World War 2, and their families made the Kiwi spouses their own.

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  62. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    You had better have a look at the clip Gulag has put up too Daphne…while you almost certainly don’t like Fox News as source, I very much doubt the clip is “doctored”…

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  63. Manolo (13,840 comments) says:

    Meanwhile the invasion of Europe continues: http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=2338934&CategoryId=12395

    Some 2,500 Italy-bound migrants were rescued from 17 boats trying to make the Mediterranean crossing from North Africa, the Italian navy said Friday.

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  64. mara (788 comments) says:

    Daphne , it might be wise to comment on topics of which you have some knowledge.

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  65. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    kowtow, incredible likening the Crusades to the D Day invasion. What was referred to as the Holy Lands were under various forms of occupation and conquest going way beyond the Byzantine Empire . Hardly Christian territory by rights except by conquest like the Romans etc before them .
    The Christian Crusades was a terrible outcome for especially the Jews who were systematically massacred along with the Muslim inhabitants of Jerusalem etc . The size of the jewish Community was greatly diminished in the Holy lands due to the Crusades.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/crusades.html

    The sacking of Constantinenoble under the Fourth crusade 1204 was a severe blow to the Byzantines seriously weakening their Empire. It made it more certain it would fall to the encroaching and encircling Ottoman Turks.
    ,

    http://www.historytoday.com/jonathan-phillips/fourth-crusade-and-sack-constantinople

    Lets not allow a few historical facts get in the way of your fanciful and lopsided view of the so called “Christian” Crusades .

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  66. gump (1,650 comments) says:

    @Jack5

    “You are aware Gump, that many of Burma’s Muslim minority are fleeing because of persecution by the Buddhist majority? Refugees from Burma a more likely to be Muslim than their percentage of Burma’s population would suggest.”

    ———————-

    I honestly wouldn’t know.

    All I know is that the Burmese family who own the lunchbar near my office make particularly good steak and cheese pies.

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  67. altiora (279 comments) says:

    When we have Moslems running around killing and assaulting people, when we have race riots, Daphne and her ilk will be saying “oh those poor Moslems, they have been oppressed and been misunderstood by those nasty ignorant white people”.

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  68. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Stephieboy on the Crusades 12.43:

    You, too, digested Runciman on the Crusades for a history paper?

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  69. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    PG: How many Muslims are there in Dunedin? Is there a mosque?

    I don’t know how many but I often seem them around the city, mostly students presumably.

    Muslims, arriving in Otago during the gold rushes of the 1870s, have long been on of the city smaller cultural and religious minorities. That is changing rapidly as many Muslim students from all over the world come to study at Dunedin’s tertiary institutions, adding a vibrant strand to the city’s rich cutural tapestry.

    http://otagomuslims.org/?page_id=206

    Yes there is a mosque.

    Masjid Al-Huda
    Mosque is the centre of the religious and social activities of Muslims of Dunedin. Establishing this mosque, with a majority of student population, was quite a challenge for the OMA. It took 51/2 long years from when we first started collecting donations to the eventual purchase of an existing building situated at 21 Clyde St, in the heart of the university area. Alhamdulillah Al-Huda Mosque now serves not only the Muslims of Dunedin, but also the other small towns around Dunedin.

    http://otagomuslims.org/?page_id=5

    There also seems to be some interfaith understanding.

    The Dunedin Abrahamic Interfaith Group

    In the aftermath of the event of September 11th 2001 (9/11) in New York out of spontaneous expressions of solidarity and goodwill between leaders of the three faiths, the police and the Dunedin City Council the Dunedin Abrahamic Interfaith Group was formed. The group exist to express a common heritage and concern, as people of faith in Dunedin. The group also seek to encourage respect, understanding and friendship between these communities.

    See http://www.dunedininterfaith.net.nz/

    There is also a Muslim student’s association – http://www.otagomusa.com/

    This google thing you mentioned earlier can be quite handy.

    The Otago region has a population of 195,000, with a Muslim community of approximately 1000 members.

    I don’t see or hear of any significant problems with any religious groups here.

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  70. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    gump: Isnt it amazing what good bakers South East Asians make? One of the bakeries in Helensville is owned by Cambodian immigrants who came here with their parents in the 70’s. They make the best Chelsea buns and doughnuts I have ever tasted. They are also lovely people…they have confirmed what I suspected: before coming here they had never seen a Chelsea bun, much less made one!! They are the epitome of the very best kind of immigrant: very hard working; kids both excelling at uni (and also helping in the shop); and very very happy to be here. At the same time, they retain close links with the Cambodian community, both in Auckland and elsewhere.

    PG: Jesus Peter, are you deliberately not reading what is posted?? Of course there will be no problems down there, with Muslims making up less that 0.1% of the population…There is clear evidence from heaps of other countries that 2% is the tipping point, at which real problems begin.

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  71. Captain Pugwash (98 comments) says:

    @Jack5
    “…Captain Pugwash’s (12.20 post) experience trying to date Greek girls decades ago doesn’t equate with trans-cultural transactions with Muslim extremists, which is zero.

    Greek girls who marry non-Greeks don’t face the death penalty, as the now-Christian woman in Sudan does. A number of Cretan women married NZ former soldiers after World War 2, and their families made the Kiwi spouses their own….”

    I knew of a Greek girl who jumped (or was she thrown?) off a building in the late ’80’s, story goes she dis-honored her family by being in a relationship of someone who they disapproved of.

    I was on holiday in Crete with my parents in the mid to late ’70’s. A local girl had been killed by her family. Her crime was talking to members of a film crew who were filming (a BBC?) TV series. Honor killing has not been uncommon in Mediterranean cultures, weather Muslim or Christian.

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  72. Pete George (23,602 comments) says:

    DG – do you know what religion if any those Cambodian immigrants are?

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  73. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Reading poor old PG again… It sounds like such a typical naïve tale of “interfaith understanding”…from the kind of useful idiot loonies of a myriad of races and religions welcome, as it gives them an “in” to the communities they seek to infiltrate and alter…

    PG: No…but they dress just like any other New Zealander, so I am pretty sure they aren’t Muslims…Also the missus flirts with me – because of my effusive praise for her Chelsea buns – while the husband is around, so whatever religion they might be is clearly not one we need to be concerned about…

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  74. Fentex (986 comments) says:

    either way it is disturbing that one or more NZers are fighting in a civil war in Syria.

    Why? Do you hold the same opinion of those who migrated to Israel to help fight for it’s independence? The French resistance who fought against the Vichy government? What is wrong with having the courage to choose to fight evil?

    [Regarding the tyrannical Assad] some of the opposition groups are little better.

    Without more information you are making unwarranted assumptions about who and for what purpose this rumoured Kiwi was fighting for. Simply having the courage to fight does not assert his allegiances.

    He might nobly have returned to his home to defend his cousins villages (I know that sounds improbable, but why hold assumptions in higher regard?). He may have joined any one of the many factions, plenty of which have perfectly reasonable ambitions.

    I don’t think keeping an eye on people who get involved in such things is a bad idea (there’s no need to make complacent assumptions either), but I also don’t think governments have a right to assert authority over everyone’s conscience and tell us what causes we may and may not fight for.

    I have no objection, in principle, to people choosing to fight evil with force where sufficient casus belli exists – and I think Syria is such a place, once that civil war had kicked off.

    In practical terms however I don’t think it’s particularly wise at the moment to prolong Syrias war – I am beginning to suspect the opportunity for successful rebellion has passed, that Assad has resisted long enough that the compounding evils of war and toxic brew of politics leave little opportunity for a better Syria coming out of this.

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  75. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    Jack 5, Runciman???

    Do entertain us with your revisionist take.?

    e.g the Byzantine Empire was not an Empire and the inhabitants of Holy Lands were voluntary; invited to join them.?The crusade conquest of Jerusalem was accompanied by wild scenes of jubilation and joy by their inhabitants .?

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  76. gump (1,650 comments) says:

    @David Garrett

    “Isnt it amazing what good bakers South East Asians make?”

    ————————-

    Yes – I have noticed this. I suspect that it’s a combination of hard work, attention to detail, and a deep-seated desire to improve their situation.

    As a big fan of the kiwi meat pie, I’d like to see pie making added to the Essential Skills In Demand Lists at Immigration NZ.

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  77. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    jack 5 and kowtow, keep your reading and facts updated ,

    The First Crusade: A New History: The Roots of Conflict between Christianity and Islam Paperback
    by Thomas Asbridge (Author)

    “In The First Crusade, Thomas Asbridge offers a gripping account of a titanic three-year adventure filled with miraculous victories, greedy princes, and barbarity on a vast scale. Beginning with the electrifying speech delivered by Pope Urban II on the last Tuesday of November in the year 1095, readers will follow the more than 100,000 men who took up the call from their mobilization in Europe (where great waves of anti-Semitism resulted in the deaths of thousands of Jews), to their arrival in Constanstinople, an exotic, opulent city–ten times the size of any city in Europe–that bedazzled the Europeans. Featured in vivid detail are the siege of Nicaea and the pivotal battle for Antioch, the single most important military engagement of the entire expedition, where the crusaders, in desparate straits, routed a larger and better equipped Muslim army. Through all this, the crusaders were driven on by intense religious devotion, convinced that their struggle would earn them the reward of eternal paradise in Heaven. But when a hardened core finally reached Jerusalem in 1099 they unleahsed an unholy wave of brutality, slaughtering thousands of Muslims–men, women, and children–all in the name of Christianity.
    The First Crusade marked a watershed in relations between Islam and the West, a conflict that set these two world religions on a course toward deep-seated animosity and enduring enmity. The chilling reverberations of this earth-shattering clash still echo in the world today.”

    http://www.amazon.com/First-Crusade-History-Conflict-Christianity/dp/0195189051/ref=la_B001K8I21K_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402190862&sr=1-2

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  78. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Gump: there is a Vietnamese Café – “café” used in the old style sense – in Browns Bay which you should visit. they have won numerous awards for their various different flavoured pies…the place is always busy…

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  79. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    The first crusade a watershed?

    Bullshit.

    The Mos occupied Spain and parts of Sicily already before the 1st crusade. The westwas fighting to get rid of them long before the crusades.

    Manzikert is constantly overlooked by historians.Look it up ,you might learn something…….if you were prepared to.

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  80. simpleton1 (230 comments) says:

    I used google translate of this article.

    http://www.dagelijksestandaard.nl/2013/05/nl-moslims-massaal-achter-jihad-syri

    The gap between Muslims and immigrants is unfathomable when it comes to the Dutch Jihad goers:

    …..72% of Muslims find it good that Dutch go to Syria to fight against the regime of President Assad, while only 8% of the indigenous population approves…….

    It seems like that eventually when sufficient population then groups can be able to raise a brigade to go and fight elsewhere.

    from wiki
    …estimated 825,000 Muslims,[2] accounting for 4,5% of the local population…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_Netherlands

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  81. tom hunter (4,899 comments) says:

    I only just noticed that Mr Edgeler has briefly emerged from his legal work for Dotcom and company to address this important foreign policy issue:

    Graeme Edgeler (3,227 comments) says:
    June 8th, 2014 at 9:33 am
    Why do you believe that Syrian citizens fighting against the Assad regime are extremists?

    I doubt that all Syrian citizens fighting Assad were extremists. The poor bloody Syrians who simply wanted Assad gone and some semblance of a capitalist democracy in his place, have run across the borders in numbers running into hundreds of thousands. So the extremists willing to fight to the death are likely the only ones left. I don’t see that this would be a particularly controversial conclusion.

    There’s also the reporting from many different news sources, Western and Middle Eastern, the broadcast claims and video propaganda of the jihadists themselves, and the invisibility of any group with any power and influence on the anti-Assad side that even looks or sounds remotely moderate, though there were such people several years ago when the civil war got under way.

    There’s also Robert Ford:

    Ford, the U.S. ambassador to Syria until he resigned in March because, as the Washington Post puts it, “he could no longer countenance” U.S. policy. Ford told PBS that the Obama administration was “constantly behind the curve, and that’s why now we have extremist threats to our own country.” Ford added that, had the administration offered arms to moderate rebels two years ago, the opposition might control more ground than it does today, and extremists might exert less influence.

    The bleeding obvious was never more sadly appropriate.

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  82. simpleton1 (230 comments) says:

    Just what were the Muslims doing in Spain, then going on into France??
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tours

    In 732 AD, Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi and a large army of Muslim horsemen from Al-Andalus advanced 500 kilometres (311 miles) deep into France, and were stopped at Tours by Charles Martel and his infantry igniting the Battle of Tours. The outcome was defeat for the Muslims, preventing France from Islamic conquest.

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  83. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    kowtow says at 1:37 pm

    “The west was fighting to get rid of them long before the crusades.”

    Yep…
    Muslims attacked Europe and Christianity for more than 350 years before the Europeans retaliated.

    630 30,000 jihadists attack the Byzantine Christians.
    644—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus.
    673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire
    711—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus.
    719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor
    732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers
    785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova
    807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem
    809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy
    813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country
    831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy
    850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer
    837—901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France
    937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked
    966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem
    1003 First persecutions by al—Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed
    1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al—Hakim (see 937)
    1012 Beginning of al—Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians
    1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia
    1090—1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

    1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade and those nasty white Christians recapture Jerusalem from those peace loving tolerant multicultural Muslims in 1099

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  84. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    kowtow and simpleton, the Muslims were doing what the Byzantine Romans, Greeks, Persians, Assyrians etc did before them.In Western Europe itself Empires were built by e. g the Franks etc such as the Holy Roman Empire ,
    Empire building and expansion was a fact and a reality of most civilizations.,
    Christian and Muslim included .
    Other Andy, a terribly lopsided and . I much prefer the view of the historical scholarship of the likes the Historian Thomas Asbridge in my prior post . Not propaganda and rhetoric

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  85. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Maybe the lesson from history is don’t wait that long to retaliate. Has Western Europe missed the boat?

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  86. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    stephieboy

    They were doing what we were doing……..yes. War.

    There is a war.How is it being waged. A number of Muslim leaders have boasted they will overcome Europe with the wombs of their women. We abort.They thrive. Our politicians import them by the tens of thousands .Our laws have been skewed to serve them through “human rights” and our politicians force multiculturalism on our societies.

    The question becomes whose side are you on?

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  87. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    Has western Europe missed the boat? Yes.

    But the boats aren’t missing western Europe.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/06/thousands-migrants-rescued-off-italy-201467134448914100.html

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  88. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    kowtow, there must be a distinction between the bombast of rhetoric and actual hard reality Historically the Muslims and Ottomans have failed to conquer Western Europe and can’t see it happening again and in despite of Immigration.
    Sharia and Jihaad cannot compete against Western scientific inquiry and the fruits an open society which various ideologies have sought to shut down like Soviet Communism and German Nazism and all the other isms. Let us add of course militant jihadism.

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  89. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    The so called open society is the one allowing the west to be overcome.

    Its very “openness” will lead to its closure.

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  90. tom hunter (4,899 comments) says:

    An admirable sentiment Stephieboy – but you need to convince most of your fellow moderate centre-leftists. They’re still firmly wedged in Kumbaya la la land, unlike Sheridan and a few others who have been mugged by reality.

    Of course the fact also has to be faced that Europeans in particular don’t have much desire to stand up and fight when they’re comfortably ensconced in their little welfare-society enclaves and increasingly dependent for its survival on importing people to replace the kids they refused to have.

    If the cheque bounces after they’re dead what do they care?

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  91. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    kowtow , its the very openness that Marxist Leninist ideology sought to shutdown and failed . Dogmatic closed ideologies , religious or secular , will always fail.

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  92. Nostradamus (3,350 comments) says:

    I see “Daphne Whitethigh” got herself all worked up (in her comment above) about “appalling bigotry” and went on to describe this thread as “shameful and depressing. Now, seeing as Daphne has a grand total of five comments to her name, I’ve just gone back and checked her previous four comments.

    Comment 1: Daphne shows a sense of humour on the “A Grammy for Lorde” thread:

    Daphne Whitethigh (5 comments) says:
    January 28th, 2014 at 12:24 am

    No need to listen to Grammy Awards for a whole load of teen angst! Come to my house! (bring beer)…

    Comment 2: Daphne disapproves of Linda Clark’s move to Kensington Swan:

    Daphne Whitethigh (5 comments) says:
    February 26th, 2014 at 12:06 am

    Large law firms are the worst career choice for women. She could do so much better than this.

    Comment 3: Uh oh – Daphne shows signs of Key derangement syndrome upon hearing the news that John Key drops off his own dry-cleaning and returns DVDs:

    Daphne Whitethigh (5 comments) says:
    March 4th, 2014 at 8:31 pm

    David, are you seriously saying that returning DVDs is a vote catcher? How so? Is this a favour to Mrs Key? To his kids? Can’t he afford the fine? I’m not sure you’re helping the case for a forward-thinking, egalitarian, modern New Zealand.

    Comment 4: Daphne shows up DPF on a thread called “An alternate flag design”:

    Daphne Whitethigh (5 comments) says:
    March 18th, 2014 at 8:26 am

    Not ‘alternate”. You mean ‘alternative’.

    So, overall, Daphne Whitethigh is well-educated (at least as far as grammar goes), isn’t a fan of John Key and thinks that she knows what’s best for Linda Clark.

    Coming back to the topic of this thread, I heard a radio interview with Australia’s Foreign Affairs Minister, Julie Bishop, who has been grappling with similar issues. Her perspective could essentially be summarised as: (1) it’s difficult to enforce travel restrictions in relation to people who are hell-bent on joining a war effort; (2) a government can cancel passports and revoke citizenship, but by her own admission that has about as much sting for the affected person as a wet bus ticket; and (3) there’s not much else that the government can do. Here’s an open letter.

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  93. OneTrack (3,121 comments) says:

    Pete – “This google thing you mentioned earlier can be quite handy.

    ‘The Otago region has a population of 195,000, with a Muslim community of approximately 1000 members.’

    I don’t see or hear of any significant problems with any religious groups here.”

    Ok, only 3000 to go to 2% then. Maybe we can review when you get there?

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  94. OneTrack (3,121 comments) says:

    stephieboy – “Dogmatic closed ideologies , religious or secular , will always fail.”

    The question is, will it fail before, or after, western democracy has been all but wiped out?

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  95. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Stephieboy quoted this in his 1.27 post:

    The First Crusade marked a watershed in relations between Islam and the West, a conflict that set these two world religions on a course toward deep-seated animosity and enduring enmity. The chilling reverberations of this earth-shattering clash still echo in the world today.”

    Let’s look at some dates.

    The First Crusade was from 1096 to 1099.

    Muslims invade Spain in 711, and seized the country, and might have taken France if they hadn’t been walloped by Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732.

    The Christian Reconquest of Spain’s first notable success was in 1085 (at Toledo), though Granada wasn’t completely reconquered until 1492.

    The enmity between Christianity and Islam was deep and well under way before the First Crusade.

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  96. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    To the point of the government refusing to name this guy on the grounds of privacy and national security, how does that work?

    We are said to live and indeed there are constant boasts about our highly developed open and transparent democracy.

    Who is the government protecting here, why the need for secrecy? any number of non govt people will know who this guy is.

    Why are we the taxpayer ,who has provided consular assistance, being left out?

    Privacy and national security doesn’t cut it.

    Was he a member of the security services, if so what are they doing there? Is he a high profile Muslim who entered NZ under controversial circumstances?

    So many questions ,so few answers. That’s not how an open society operates.

    I don’t expect our fearless Lame Stream Media to chase this.Nothing to see here ,move along please.

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  97. All_on_Red (1,584 comments) says:

    DG
    Passing through Rotorua the other day I stopped off at Patrick Lams place ” Patricks Pies” . He is a multiple winner in the Best Pie competition. There are awards all over the walls.
    Deservedly so, they are delicious!

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  98. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    A number of Muslim leaders have boasted they will overcome Europe with the wombs of their women. We abort.They thrive.

    That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
    Gen 22:17

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  99. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    One track, of course there are dangers with the unrestricted inflow of Muslim immigration into Western Europe and all governments need to act to restrict the flow and those there understand firmly that they are required to observe the rule of law etc.Those not complying and advocating and involved in terrorist activities de[ported prompto
    There needs to be steely resolve with this and I’d have to say the actions of e.g Sweden are not encouraging.
    However I strongly believe that democracy and the open society will ultimately win over any hard bitten religious or secular ideology.
    Just consider all the failed Islamic states who live under the shackles of Sharia etc.

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  100. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    Jack 5, I’d say that with the collapse of e.g the Ottoman and Mughal Empires in the 19th and 20th century s Islam has lost more than it has gained territorially .
    Consider also the Ottomans often despised their islamic ” brethren” like the Arabs under their rule

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  101. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    For those who missed the relevant posts on Kiwiblog yesterday, and have the time, the links below may be of interest. They are about the Christchurch Press editorial yesterday supporting it’s earlier report downplaying Australian reports suggesting that the two Australians killed by drone attack in Yemen were likely radicalised at the Christchurch mosque.

    First, this from a Fairfax report (Fairfax of Australia owns the Christchurch Press; Havard is one of the two Australians killed in Yemen):

    Documents from the Australian department of foreign affairs said the men had links to the al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) terror group, and Havard’s parents told Australia’s ABC news this week that their son first encountered radical Islam when he moved to Christchurch.

    Now the links:

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australians-linked-to-alqaeda-killed-by-us-drones-in-yemen-20140416-zqvar.html

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Drone-victims-exposed-to-radical-Islam-in-Christchurch/tabid/417/articleID/347040/Default.aspx

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10120347/Drone-victims-radicalised-at-mosque

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/editorials/10129571/Editorial-Passing-connections-do-not-radicalise-a-mosque

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  102. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10884211/Trojan-Horse-ringleaders-face-ban-for-extremist-plot.html

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  103. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Kowtow’s (3.56) link on radical Islamicists being foiled from taking over 21 State schools in Birmingham makes chilling reading.

    Perhaps Pete George can bring us up to date on how the Otago Muslims are getting on with their plan to set up a Muslim school in Dunedin. I think it has run into local opposition.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/281675/muslim-school-leader-dismayed-reaction

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  104. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    “Perhaps Pete George can bring us up to date on how the Otago Muslims are getting on with their plan to set up a Muslim school in Dunedin. I think it has run into local opposition.”

    That article was interesting when it mentioned the desire to teach contrary to scientific theories such as evolution – are any faith-based schools allowed to do this currently?

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  105. lilman (960 comments) says:

    I dont like Muslim people ,its a disgrace the way they treat women and I would expell every one who breaks any law in this country,without question.
    If you dont like it leave .

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  106. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    adze, I believe they do so at Auckland’s private Christian Hebron College

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  107. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Adze: It looks as if not all the residents of Otago are quite as naïve as our Pete about the religion of peace…funny that…and very encouraging too…

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  108. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    “adze, I believe they do so at Auckland’s private Christian Hebron College”

    O_0 ..That’s outrageous, if so.

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  109. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    are any faith-based schools allowed to do this currently

    Accelerated Christian Education – a curriculum in use in NZ.

    http://leavingfundamentalism.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/top-5-lies-told-by-accelerated-christian-education/

    http://www.scee.edu.au/christian-day-schools/christian-schools-in-new-zealand/

    http://www.scee.edu.au/home-schooling/new-zealand-home-school-providers/

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  110. altiora (279 comments) says:

    @stephieboy:

    “Sharia and Jihaad cannot compete against Western scientific inquiry and the fruits an open society which various ideologies have sought to shut down like Soviet Communism and German Nazism and all the other isms. Let us add of course militant jihadism.”

    I’d like to share your optimism but I don’t really. We just need to look at up to now moderate, and British aligned, Brunei introducing sharia law — for muslims and non-muslims (to an extent). There doesn’t seem to be any apparent retreat quite the reverse: sharia law seems to be spreading.

    I fear that Europe is in for another period of bloodshed. And the greatest tragedy is that it was entirely preventable and predictable.

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  111. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    altiora: And it won’t only be Europe if we don’t watch our step here…the Aussies have got past the critical 2% already…

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  112. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    aliora,

    I don’t share your pessimism. Brunei is a tiny nation and I can’t see e.g Indonesia following in their wake.
    Closed ideologies like the closed mind have always failed and Open societies such as ours succeeded.
    David Garrett ,the so called 2% is based more on paranoia than actual reality.!

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  113. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    I fear that Europe is in for another period of bloodshed. And the greatest tragedy is that it was entirely preventable and predictable.

    Preventing it involves understanding the cause.

    And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know [it].
    Quran 2:42

    For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
    Romans 3:7

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  114. altiora (279 comments) says:

    Eventually stephieboy eventually after much bloodshed.

    @David Garrett: agree entirely. Recent visit to Sydney reinforced Australia’s problems. I fear that the biggest threat to European freedom will come from an unholy alliance between Muslims extremists and far leftists or even possibly far rightists. An alliance with the far right seems improbable, but remember Balkans Muslims and Palestinians loved Hitler and were his most vicious soldiers and I think both groups would identity ordinary mainstream democratic culture as their mutual targets. And of course, they both hate the Jews.

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  115. IC5000 (114 comments) says:

    “tom hunter (4,204 comments) says:
    June 8th, 2014 at 1:50 pm

    I doubt that all Syrian citizens fighting Assad were extremists. The poor bloody Syrians who simply wanted Assad gone and some semblance of a capitalist democracy in his place, have run across the borders in numbers running into hundreds of thousands. So the extremists willing to fight to the death are likely the only ones left. I don’t see that this would be a particularly controversial conclusion.”

    I doubt this distinction is noted by KB posters. Anybody who has been following the Syrian war will have noted how it went from street protests to jihadist cutting out the hearts of soldiers and eating them on youtube. Clearly what brought about this change is not a factor that many consider here – barrel bombs, chemical weapons siege tactics and starvation of civilian populations, mass execution and torture of political opponents and the specific targeting of women and children. Given this its slightly disturbing that comments such as these are made:

    “kowtow (7,151 comments) says:
    June 8th, 2014 at 9:34 am
    I’d like to think of Assads’ forces killing every single foreign jihadist supporting the attempt to overthrow his legitimate ,but agreed not very nice regime,there and that these fuckers never return to the west.”

    Well, as Stalin once said ‘You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.’ so if a few (tens) of thousands of raghead children have to die (who would grow up to be jihadists anyway) so that’s a price the West can pay to live in peace.

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  116. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Stephie: Really? Well, you be the latest one to tell us why our experience would be any different from Australia, the UK France and Germany if we allow our Muslim population to get to 2% or 5% respectively…I am all ears…

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  117. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    Europe is already experiencing the bloodshed

    Madrid bombings,London bombings,Drummer Rigby, belgium Holocaust museum…….

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  118. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    Hmm… this link to the Hebron College’s biology curriculum seems to suggest an acceptance of evolutionary theory… unless creationism is taught alongside it?
    http://www.hebron.ac.nz/Curriculum/Secondary/Biology.html

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  119. kowtow (8,524 comments) says:

    IC5000

    You conveniently leave out the Qatari involvement.From the Ft.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/f2d9bbc8-bdbc-11e2-890a-00144feab7de.html#axzz341QJRPj3

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  120. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Madrid bombings

    On 1 March 2004, the Secretary General of NATO visited Spain.

    On 4 March 2004, the Madrid Bombings took place.

    A few hours before the Madrid Bombings, NATO carried out a terrorism exercise in Madrid.

    http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.nz/2010/10/nato-link-to-madrid-bombings-of-2004.html

    London bombings

    A fictional “scenario” of multiple bomb attacks on London’s underground took place at exactly the same time as the bomb attack on July 7, 2005.

    Peter Power, Managing Director of Visor Consultants, a private firm on contract to the London Metropolitan Police, described in a BBC interview how he had organized and conducted the anti-terror drill, on behalf of an unnamed business client.

    The fictional scenario was based on simultaneous bombs going off at exactly the same time at the underground stations where the real attacks were occurring:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/7-7-mock-terror-drill-what-relationship-to-the-real-time-terror-attacks/821

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  121. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    UglyTruth, your 5.28 proves you are absolutely bonkers!

    Why do conspiracy nutters so like to incorporate the word “truth” in their books, blogs, pseudonyms – and crazy rumours?

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  122. Longknives (4,767 comments) says:

    It’s quite bloody obvious to anyone with even quarter of a freaking brain that Muslim Immigration is seriously bad news-
    Two Words- Lee. Rigby.
    If we keep letting them in it’s only a matter of time until an innocent Kiwi minding his or her own business has their head sawn off in the name of ‘Allah’..

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  123. altiora (279 comments) says:

    I was going to say UglyTruth quotes both manmade scripture and conspiracy theories. Quite a heady combination.

    The point is simply this: our society is the product of many centuries of shared heritage. To bring those who don’t share that heritage, or don’t want to be part of it, is sheer madness.

    What gets me is that it is only western countries undertaking this unprecedented social experiment. If you look at Muslim countries most if not all have a law that says you can’t be a citizen unless you’re Muslim. Even non Muslim countries restrict immigration by those outside the dominant cultural groups. For example India: pretty much impossible to get a long-term visa if you’re not of Indian descent. Seems like this immigration is a one way street.

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  124. tom hunter (4,899 comments) says:

    if a few (tens) of thousands of raghead children have to die (who would grow up to be jihadists anyway) so that’s a price the West can pay to live in peace.

    @IC5000
    While I appreciate the kudos of being reasonable about this, your quote above effectively says that the West should get involved in yet another Middle Eastern disaster zone, that it’s our responsibility for all those thousands of “rag head” kids.

    Now if we lived in a world where the West would not get blamed for everything that goes wrong with the Middle East anyway I could see the moral and ethical requirement to do something. But then I thought that about Saddam Hussein. I was utterly pissed off that in 1991 we did not go down the highway to Baghdad to get rid of the bastard then and there. I had to grudgingly admit that not doing so was probably the correct decision at the time.

    While that was digested I cheered on Clinton’s strikes against his facilities and with all the screams and cries from US Democrats through the 1990’s about Saddam and his WMD’s, the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, and all the rest, I foolishly thought they’d back a President who finally decided to put an end to the evil.

    Never again.

    Having said that there might have been number of things we could have done, short of US or NATO boots on the ground, to tip Assad’s regime over when it was most vulnerable and when we might have been able to also isolate the jihadists. Key word is “might”. Libya was a test of whether a dictator could be toppled in a different way than Saddam was – without a massive invasion or even any Western boots on the ground afterwards to try to nation-build in the manner of Afghanistan and Iraq. For a while it seemed to work, but by the time Syria cracked up it was clear that there was almost no scenario where jihadists would not rise to be the dominant opposition.

    So I’m afraid that there is nothing we either can or even should do now to intervene in this catastrophe, beyond trying to save the lives of those who choose to escape it.

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  125. altiora (279 comments) says:

    @ tom hunter. Good analysis. I think the key to the problem is western liberals who think thye can superimpose representative democracy on cultures which don’t have the cultural or historical conditioning that allows for representative democracy to grow. I think it entirely arrogant to think that western enlightenment ideals, which are about 300 years old, can somehow overcome political Islam which is over 1000 years old, and the tribalist mentality, which stretches back into the midst of time. I’m afraid that Assad is actually a force for good in that region.

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  126. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @Tom Hunter

    As always, enjoying your well written and thoughtful comments.

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  127. stephieboy (3,169 comments) says:

    altiroa, I think your rather patronizing in regard to western liberals” who think they can superimpose representative democracy on cultures which don’t have the cultural or historical conditioning…. etc.” As though the Middle East was problem created by liberals and they actually in fact try and do that.
    I certainly think the ideals of Western representative Democracy are worth striving for , nurtured and encouraged. India provides a good example where it has worked seamlessly and to some extent Pakistan. South Korea and of course Japan ;also come to mind where the later has shaken off traditional authoritarian monarchism.
    Its rather outstanding that you think that a Dictator like Assad is somehow a force for good in the ME. But on second thoughts its not surprising given how elements on the far right are often attracted to authoritarian solutions with a willingness even to forsake the idea and ideals of representative democracy liberal or otherwise.

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  128. altiora (279 comments) says:

    Stephieboy: hardly patronising. After all, how many Arabs need to be slaughered before western liberals finally reject the idea that all the world can live in harmony if only they could cast a vote every 3, 4 or 5 years? I am all for democracy, but to ever think it can be “imposed” is an illusion.

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  129. IC5000 (114 comments) says:

    “tom hunter (4,206 comments) says:
    June 8th, 2014 at 6:38 pm

    @IC5000
    While I appreciate the kudos of being reasonable about this, your quote above effectively says that the West should get involved in yet another Middle Eastern disaster zone, that it’s our responsibility for all those thousands of “rag head” kids.”

    No, not at all. It was just an observation regarding the limits of morality that the West sets and the hypocrisy surrounding it. Human life is pretty cheap these days if you’re born with an inconvenient citizenship.

    We don’t even know who this guy was fighting for. It could have been the moderate Free Syrian Army or one of the more odious groups Jihadist groups so its a little too early to be indulging masturbatory keyboard warrior jerk-off posts. One of the interesting aspects of the war is how a few of these Jihadist groups like the ISIS actually have a tacit alliance with the Baathist regime so that Assad can have a freer hand to deal with FSA and that Jihadist have actually been been at war with the moderate resistance groups in Aleppo.

    For all all of those cheering about Assad his regime is allied with Hezbollah and Iran (those guys with a nuclear program remember?) both of which have an extensive terrorist network that they have utilised in the past. Yay.

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  130. BlairM (2,341 comments) says:

    I’ve made quite a few Syrian friends over the last year and a half. All agree that Assad is no angel, but none want to see him deposed by the insurgents. To paraphrase Arnold Schwartzenegger, yeah, he’s killed people, but they were all bad. While Assad is Muslim, he is married to a Christian woman and has a vested interest in protecting the Christian minority there, as well as quashing the militant Islamist threat. Western politicians like McCain are mad to support the other side – they are not our friends!

    If Assad has supported terrorist activities, do not imagine that his opponents will provide relief, or do anything less than step it up a gear.

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