Logie defends immigrants from Labour and NZ First

June 10th, 2014 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

Green MP blogs:

Over the last couple of weeks Labour has suggested immigrants are causing our housing crisis and that we should cut the numbers of immigrants coming in, NZ First has suggested too many unskilled migrants are coming and taking our jobs and National wants us stop those boat people. All this adds up to unhelpful and potentially stigmatising conversation.

I wonder how Penjun and his family and all the other migrants like them are feeling in NZ right now.

seems to be a difficult topic to discuss sensibly. It has been a trigger for racism here in the past and very worryingly we are seeing the rise of racist political parties in Europe targeting migrants. I don’t want to see such conversations leading to anyone in this country feeling as if they are not valued or are missing out because another group of people is getting more.

Let me say clearly now: the housing crisis is not the fault of recent migrants; the unemployment rate is not the fault of recent migrants; and asylum seekers are not a threat to us.

Good to see Logie call Labour out on this.

On the issue of asylum seekers, I don’t think anyone says they are a threat. I think people are saying we don’t want to encourage people to try and sail to NZ, as more often than not they’ll drown doing so.

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62 Responses to “Logie defends immigrants from Labour and NZ First”

  1. gazzmaniac (2,317 comments) says:

    On the issue of asylum seekers, I don’t think anyone says they are a threat. I think people are saying we don’t want to encourage people to try and sail to NZ, as more often than not they’ll drown doing so.

    I don’t think you’re quite right there David. People are quite capable of deciding whether or not it is worth risking their life on a leaky boat or not.
    Maybe not in New Zealand, but in Australia people are concerned that people who are not really refugees are gaming the system to get ahead of people who actually need a hand. There is a massive problem with rich Iranians flying to Indonesia and attempting to get to Australia in shitty boats. Those people were using Australia as a stepping stone to the US, and they are getting pissy now that Abott’s government has shut their back door.

    http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2014/s3965617.htm

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  2. Nigel Kearney (864 comments) says:

    the housing crisis is not the fault of recent migrants

    Quite right. It is the fault of people like the Greens who are making it difficult to build more houses. And the unemployment rate is made a lot worse by the high minimum wage and generous welfare entitlements. I’m pleased the Greens are finally taking responsibility for the damage caused by policies they have previously supported.

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  3. anonymouse (695 comments) says:

    So from a pure political management perspective, Labour’s policy is totally dead in the water, they have no way of implementing it even if they were elected, ( unless they can govern with just the support with Winston First)

    Therefore from a votes point of view the only reason to be continuing to push this policy must be to steal wavering NZ first voters, there is certainly no green voters going to come over to them for it,

    The fact they cannot define the policy properly gives the government free hits on them, and all for a losey few grumpy NZ First voters, they must truely have some dire internal polling numbers to be continuing with this policy on the hoof mantra…

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  4. Jack5 (4,571 comments) says:

    Gazzmaniac (2.13) has a point. Genuine political refugees need to be sifted from economic gatecrashers.

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  5. Odakyu-sen (440 comments) says:

    Immigrants will only cause a housing crisis when demand for housing outstrips supply. If we don’t wish to throw the younger generation of NZers under the bus, we should re-zone land and make more housing sites available.

    Who ever asked the New Zealand public if it was okay to let refugees into the country anyway?

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  6. alloytoo (432 comments) says:

    “On the issue of asylum seekers, I don’t think anyone says they are a threat. I think people are saying we don’t want to encourage people to try and sail to NZ, as more often than not they’ll drown doing so.”

    David, it’s perfectly OK to say “We don’t want them.”

    We say that to plenty of applicants who apply through the legitimate channels, we can certainly say that to people who try to arrive illegally.

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  7. Nostalgia-NZ (4,900 comments) says:

    The Greens are explaining their policy far more clearly than Labour explain theirs. There have been at least 2 others that have caught attention – protecting payments to subbies when Companies like Mainzeal collapse is an important one.

    ‘Boat people’ people forced to flee their homes are people NZers have supported over the years, it’s not a good look when any NZ party becomes hysterical about something that is yet to happen or arguing against genuine refugees because there may be some ‘moon lighters’ amongst them. Labour better hold onto their hats because mama green is chewing their cud.

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  8. All_on_Red (1,341 comments) says:

    Judging by this Australian government report into the riots on Manus Island I think we should be careful of being naive about the quality of some of these illegal immigrants.
    Violence, racism, man on man rape- we don’t need to import these people and the problems they bring into our country. It seems the Iranans are the worst.
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/there-is-a-grim-truth-behind-these-men-of-violence/story-fni0ffxg-1226934847479

    It’s a shocking tale.

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  9. thedavincimode (6,530 comments) says:

    Once again, liebour is out-manoeuvred by the melons. And once again, cunners did it all by himself.

    I knew he was a fraud and a phoney. I knew he was vacuous and narcissistic. But I never dared think it possible that he would be an even bigger fuckwit than Goof and the fish man combined. Yet there isn’t a week that goes by when he doesn’t remind me of my short-sightedness.

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  10. wreck1080 (3,726 comments) says:

    “the housing crisis is not the fault of recent migrants”

    This is a ridiculous statement for several reasons. Firstly, because it implies immigration has an all or none affect on house prices. Too simplistic.

    Secondly, because immigrants have contributed to the high auckland prices. eg, a real estate person described just one experience where a busload of visiting chinese people were driven around Auckland city and take to some housing in Mt Albert that was excessively priced and had been on the market for several years. They were all sold immediately to the chinese.

    A friend of mine who used to attend auctions said asians were well and truly well represented and would often outbid others.

    And, you can visually see the demographic changes in Auckland. Sometimes , I don’t even think I am in NZ when visiting Auckland now (I left auck in the mid-90′s , sold my house in 1999 , to immigrants actually). Being an ostrich does not change facts. Surely these people live in houses right?

    I included immigrants from when the immigration wave began in the 90′s.

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  11. burt (7,797 comments) says:

    Housing will be a non issue once we are all on a benefit and all unable to afford toilet paper let alone houses. Socialist policies will solve this problem the only way socialism can. By lowering all expectations. A falling tide that takes every boat down with it.

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  12. Odakyu-sen (440 comments) says:

    Data from 2013 http://www.barfoot.co.nz/News/2013/May/Top-25-salespeople-2013.aspx

    A significant proportion of the top 25 salespeople are of Chinese ethnicity. Ask yourself: who might these people be well skilled at selling real estate to? In addition, the Caucasian salespeople shown on the page may also specialize in immigrant groups, for example Nadja based in Mairangi Bay may possibly specialize in non-Chinese immigrant clients who wish to live on the North Shore.

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  13. Nukuleka (201 comments) says:

    I am tired of people not stating the obvious and not being honest. Boat people (known to some for reasons best known to themselves as ‘asylum seekers’) are NOT wanted here full stop. Please don’t try to be as pc as the likes of the Greens by claiming that we don’t want to encourage them lest they drown!! Of course, we don’t want anyone to drown, but for heavens sake they are trying to get into the country illegally. We don’t want illegal immigrants.

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  14. Nostalgia-NZ (4,900 comments) says:

    Wreck 1080 is right about the auctions and so on. It’s also the case with commercial buildings in particular shopping centres. On the other hand there is nothing stopping anybody buying the buildings of which are good number are sold at higher prices that what they are worth, and are often left to deteriorate in one way or another – most often by poor maintenance. Those that occupy them, often by way of lease, are invariably hard workers running ‘family’ type businesses.

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  15. David Garrett (6,349 comments) says:

    wreck: I am with you…As regular readers will know I am one of those who finds Muslim immigration extremely disturbing..in fact “frightening” would be a more accurate word…But I also find it disturbing that one can be in parts of Auckland and ALL the shop signage is Korean, and you can only hear Asian languages as you walk down the street..

    Call me racist, I don’t care…

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  16. dog_eat_dog (743 comments) says:

    abloo bloo the whole world is no longer a place where being white gives me as much of a systematic advantage as I like, woe is me.

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  17. CJPhoto (213 comments) says:

    Fark – one the one occasion that they do actually agree with National they cant even go there and just say they agree (against party policy?) so they have to mention Boat people!

    Does this mean that the Greens will welcome boat people with open arms?

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  18. peterwn (3,148 comments) says:

    Left wingers just seem to love people who over-stay temporary visas, put passports down the gurgler, etc. And some of the cases backfire on them.

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  19. Odakyu-sen (440 comments) says:

    “But I also find it disturbing that one can be in parts of Auckland and ALL the shop signage is Korean, and you can only hear Asian languages as you walk down the street.”

    Quite right. If it were Japanese being spoken, I would feel right at home. Damn, I feel like a fish out of water surrounded by all these Cantonese and Mandarin speakers, not to mention native speakers of Tagalog or Korean. I feel so alienated and foreign (but at least I can have a stab at reading the Chinese menu, since the characters for “steamed xxx” are likely to be similar to the ones used in Japan). (I still have to point at it, because I can’t pronounce any of it.)

    Seriously, what did the immigration officials in this country think would likely happen when they opened the floodgates 20-odd years ago?

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  20. OTGO (510 comments) says:

    The mere fact that so many people want to come to NZ is proof that our society is better than where they are coming from. If you think they are adding to our society then you’re delusional.

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  21. Bob R (1,336 comments) says:

    @ Jan Logie,

    A net immigration flow equal to one percent of the population is associated with an approximately 10 percent increase in house
    prices. This relationship has existed since the 1960s.

    http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/research_and_publications/discussion_papers/
    2007/dp07_12.pdf

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  22. G152 (141 comments) says:

    If you think that we’re immune from foreigners arriving via small boats have a look at the Bay of Islands, Whangarei Town Basin and the Sounds.

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  23. Bob R (1,336 comments) says:

    @ dog_eat_dog,

    Why should Europeans, Maori or anyone else not want policies that benefit them? It’s not a case of whining “woe is me”, it’s a case of discussing what policies best benefit you. Recently we had quoted a Chinese NZ Community representative on the issue of immigration. It’s only reasonable that European NZ representatives and Maori representatives also have their views heard.

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  24. David Garrett (6,349 comments) says:

    OTGO: I don’t necessarily agree with that…40 odd years ago we had an influx of British immigrants…Anyone who went to that country 30 odd years ago knows that parts of it are absolute shit holes, and for the rest, you need money to properly enjoy what’s on offer… so those immigrants were definitely looking for a better life…

    From my experience in little old Gisborne, the vast majority of pommie immigrants were very hard workers…I remember one guy, an orchardist, who I worked for in the holidays…He was very proud to have been a 10 pound pom…and having worked two jobs – unknown then – in order to buy his orchard. The same can be said for the Dutch immigrants…although they certainly didn’t pay above minimum wage, and policed the tea breaks like POW camp guards!

    Now comes the tricky part….for the most part, immigrants from the past were PLU, and the ones that werent – like the Chinese – kept to themselves but also worked bloody hard and kept out of trouble.

    That is a very different picture from that which has prevailed over the last 20 or so years…I am happy to say I don’t much like how the demographics of the country are developing…Asians being 15 or 20% of the population is not a country in which I will feel very much at home..

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  25. Bob R (1,336 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett,

    Which is an entirely normal response. In fact the majority of people in 47 countries surveyed by Pew (developed and developing) all wanted immigration restricted.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2007/10/04/world-publics-welcome-global-trade-but-not-immigration/

    For some reason this is seen as normal in non-European countries. No one blinks an eyelid when the Dalai Lama says he is concerned about Tibet being demographically swamped. In fact, I suspect Jan Logie would support him. Europeans are held to a different standard though. It’s bizarre.

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  26. gazzmaniac (2,317 comments) says:

    Asians being 15 or 20% of the population is not a country in which I will feel very much at home..

    Do us all a favour and fuck off then. You might be able to steal the identity of a dead baby from another country instead of having to get residency.

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  27. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    Funny how David Farrar prefers Jan Logie to the Savings Working Group:

    Government policies blamed for house prices
    “Immigration and tax breaks for investment in residential property are being cited as the underlying causes of steep increases in the cost of housing over the past decade.
    New Zealand now boasts one of the highest rates of home unaffordability in the world as a result of prices rising far faster than incomes, and the government’s Savings Working Group blames that squarely on the policies of successive governments.
    Although “the favourable tax treatment of property investment” accounted for about 50% of house price increases between 2001 and 2007, the working group said, there was also strong evidence that rapid swings in immigration brought about price-rise “shocks”.
    There was a sharp spike in immigration in 2001, 2002 and 2003 and, said working group committee member Dr Andrew Coleman, it appeared that property prices did not fall anywhere near as greatly when immigration fell again.
    The report added that there was little evidence that immigration boosted local incomes. In fact, the need to build roads and schools meant that net migration contributed to the national deficit. ”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/4622459/Government-policies-blamed-for-house-prices or Treasury’s Julie Fry

    Although agreement between observable national and regional results would give greater
    confidence, it is possible to have large effects at the national level that are hard to identify
    at the regional level. On balance, the available evidence suggests that migration, in conjunction with sluggish supply of new housing and associated land use restrictions, may
    139
    have had a significant effect on house prices in New Zealand.

    http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-policy/wp/2014/14-10
    Migration and Macroeconomic
    Performance in New Zealand:
    Theory and Evidence
    Julie Fry
    New Zealand Treasury Working Paper 14/10

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  28. Odakyu-sen (440 comments) says:

    “A net immigration flow equal to one percent of the population is associated with an approximately 10 percent increase in house prices.”

    Perhaps a higher proportion of immigrants are wanna-be house buyers compared with the general NZ population. If every single immigrant is a potential house buyer, but only 10% of the general NZ population are potential house buyers, then a net immigration flow equal to one percent of the population is associated with a 10% rise in housing demand. (A ridiculous example, I know.)

    Similarly, if each house-buying immigrant had 10x the net worth of the average house buyer in the general population, then the more-desirable properties would be soon snapped up.

    Also, if each house-buying immigrant were able to borrow money at half the effective rate as could the average house buyer in the general population, then the immigrants would punch well above their weight.

    In addition, the bulk of immigrants may chose to live in a single city (or selected suburbs of that city).

    Put all of these factors together (higher proportion of potential buyers in the immigrant population, higher next worth, lower effective interest rates offshore, concentration of buying in one location) then it might not take too many of these talented and well-resourced immigrants to have a significant impact on house prices.

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  29. Bob R (1,336 comments) says:

    @ gazzmaniac,

    Why the outraged response? As you’ll see from the survey above, that’s a normal human reaction to population or ethnic displacement. You would see exactly the same response to mass non-Asian immigration to China or Japan.

    Also, attacking someone personally, who is using their own name, while you use a pseudonym isn’t cool.

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  30. David Garrett (6,349 comments) says:

    Bob R: You are too kind…but it’s just a faux “outraged response”…the man is just a first class (anonymous) wanker…

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  31. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    National is pro immigration because the construction sector relies on it (10,000 firms since 2002 “suffers from boom and bust”) whereas the greens are “progressives of the internationalist tradition” (and bugger the consequences).

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  32. dog_eat_dog (743 comments) says:

    I guess I don’t count being angry at someone because they’re not the same as me to be a traditional Kiwi value as much as some others do. If that’s something you think is under threat due to immigration then it’s for the best.

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  33. Rex Widerstrom (5,254 comments) says:

    If arguing against immigration and foreign ownership on purely economic grounds – because foreign ownership, in particular, is primarily by individuals and corporations from Caucasian origins – keeps getting called “racism” by those who have no stronger argument, then perhaps it’s time those of us who’re accused embraced the term.

    “Queer” was once uttered in a pejorative sense so the LGBT community simply adopted it as their own and in doing so changed the meaning. Similarly African Americans adopting words which were once used in a derogatory way (though the politically correct have ironically halted the defusal of such terms by bristling when they’re used by anyone other than an African American. Better to ignore it so it loses its power).

    Most people opposed to immigration aren’t racists, and so we get offended when those who support it resort, like Logie, to insinuate that we are. And immediately the debate becomes “are you a racist?” and not “how much immigration is appropriate?”. Very handy if you’re on the pro-immigration side of the argument.

    Perhaps, then, the appropriate response to Logie and her ilk is, to borrow from my teenage son, “whatevs”.

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  34. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    Michael Reddell Says:

    Population growth has considerable implications for required investment – or, in the parlance
    of this paper, “desired investment” at the world interest rate. Crudely, every new person
    living in New Zealand requires on average an addition to the net capital stock (houses,
    roads, hospitals, shops, offices, factories equal to 3-4 years of income 58 ), just to maintain
    pre-existing capital/output ratios.
    If the rate of population growth increases by 1 per cent per
    annum, this means that the required (or “desired”) gross investment to GDP ratio, all else
    equal, will be 3-4 percentage points of GDP higher if the pre-existing capital to output ratio is
    to be maintained. That puts additional pressure on scarce real resources – scarce
    particularly in an economy with only a modest national savings rate – and tends to hold
    domestic interest rates higher than otherwise 59 . The issue isn’t money – that can be
    borrowed abroad – it is the availability of, in particular, the domestic labour required to
    actually put the investment in place.
    Most of the capital stock is buildings (residential
    dwellings alone make up around 40 per cent of the capital stock) and construction is a
    relatively low productivity labour intensive sector.
    All else equal – and in particular for an unchanged savings rate – faster population growth
    (especially relative to that abroad) means that some other investment that would otherwise
    occur will tend to be crowded out to make way for the infrastructure (private and public)
    needs of the increased population. This is not some central planner’s response, but how the
    market respond to the demand created by the additional population – it crowds out spending
    that is relatively more sensitive to changes in real interest and exchange rates. Typically,
    that will be business investment, especially that in the tradables sector. In such a situation,
    the total capital stock will still be growing, perhaps quite materially, but the capital stock per
    capita, or per worker, will be growing less rapidly than it would otherwise have done.

    http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/research_and_publications/…and…/5200823.pdf
    I think he means that’s not so good (unless your a member of the Property Council)?

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  35. Bob R (1,336 comments) says:

    ***I guess I don’t count being angry at someone because they’re not the same as me to be a traditional Kiwi value as much as some others do.***

    @ dog_eat_dog,

    Who is angry at anyone? What are you talking about? Is the Dalai Lama “angry” at people because he doesn’t want Tibet to change demographically?

    In terms of housing affordability, the Reserve Bank discussion paper I linked above shows the relationship between immigration levels and house prices. Discussing what levels would ease pressure on house prices seems a logical thing to do, no? Unless you think it’s a taboo and there is a sacred level of immigration?

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  36. David Garrett (6,349 comments) says:

    dog: Let me make it clear…I am NOT opposed to unrestricted immigration because many immigrants are not PLU…And although I honestly believe assimilation is better for the country, I don’t think that is necessary either…Again going back to my own childhood, there was a small Chinese community in Gisborne…for the most part they did not assimilate, but rather quietly maintained their own culture and traditions…I have a memory of becoming friendly with a Chinese boy at primary school…one afternoon he invited me to his house after school…I went with some trepidation, simply because he was not “one of us” and he had warned me his Grandma spoke no English…I can still recall being given Chinese tea, and Hark (the boys “English” name) talking to his Grandma in rapid fire Chinese…I was made to feel very welcome, and once I had got over my nervousness I felt it..

    But the Yees lived in an ordinary house in an ordinary street…apart from being Chinese and speaking two languages, Hark was just another kid… that is very different from the Chinese and other enclaves which have developed in the last 20 years… And it is a cliché but true nonetheless…you NEVER saw Chinese names in the Court Reports…they didn’t even feature in the Divorces I used to devour in the “Truth”…especially those on the grounds of ADULTERY!!

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  37. Griff (6,711 comments) says:

    The chance of boat loads of refugees getting here without Coast Gard.Navy or Customs noticing them well before land fall is next to 0
    There is a lot of water to cross that is not renowned for being safe or easy and from experience they will spot you somewhere in those 1200 odd miles of open ocean.
    We are not usually hassled by the authoritys on land but when crossing between NZ and the islands they usually question you and your intentions at some point on the journey.
    Having a wasp hover overhead with sailors pointing guns being buzzed by a large or small plane or hailed by a large grey warship is part of the journey for most who cross the pacific to here during the safe season .
    I don’t think even the smugglers would risk the journey outside of may to November cyclone free window

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  38. Bob R (1,336 comments) says:

    ***keeps getting called “racism” by those who have no stronger argument, then perhaps it’s time those of us who’re accused embraced the term.***

    @ Rex,

    It’s part of a broader cultural marxist movement attacking europeans generally. There was an excellent series of articles in Quadrant about this in the media & Universities.

    “On Anzac Day, which commemorates soldiers’ sacrifice for the nation, Eva Cox of the University of Technology, Sydney, doubted that Anzac Day was for all Australians because it is “very Anzac Anglo” (Sun-Herald, April 29, p. 86). In his Anzac comment, historian Craig Stockings sought to soften the clash between national identity and the multicultural population by exploding misconceptions about Australian soldiers. True, the Anzac legendary hero is “always, always white”, but thankfully Australia’s behaviour on the battlefield has had nothing to do with its soldiers being Australian, with their national character or “ethnic inheritance” (Australian, April 25). As Peter Coleman succinctly puts it, “Leftist writers, who do not like Australia or Australians, have assembled a portfolio of charges to debunk ‘the Anzac myth’.”[23]..

    From the 1960s the universities became a stronghold for anti-Anglo activists, eventually leading to school curricula having their civics courses stripped of patriotic history. The present Labor government is intent on introducing a national civics curriculum for schools that teaches children nothing of the country’s Anglo-Celtic and European history. Instead it intends to emphasise Aboriginal culture, Asian geography, environmental sustainability and leftist values.[45]”

    https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2012/10/the-war-against-human-nature-iii-race-and-the-nation-in-the-media/

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  39. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom (5,178 comments) says:
    Most people opposed to immigration aren’t racists, and so we get offended when those who support it resort, like Logie, to insinuate that we are
    ……………
    I think the problem is that by nature humans have an innate preference for people like themselves . This fact is used to disqualify anyone opposed to immigration “why is it only Asians you object to”?
    If we were to have the same inflow of people from (say) the U.K we would have all the same problems and complaints (traffic, infrastructure, house prices – but without ethnic enclaves) but we would be slower to object, a bit like eating sweets with a sugar coating and getting fat. Either way it should be our choice not the meddling social engineering Greens or self-interested National Government. It isn’t as though we are advocating aparthied; we have had twenty years of population growth and it has done us no good.

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  40. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    @ Griff

    isn’t the point that if they made it into our waters, if a soft regime was in government they would get into trouble or (somehow) hook with local support?

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  41. David Garrett (6,349 comments) says:

    Griff: A bit off topic, but plenty of quite small yachts made the trip during the “Mr Asia” days…who can forget those $10 Buddha sticks? Seemed like a bargain until you went and saw the size they were when their journey began…

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  42. Longknives (4,414 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/10140548/I-didn-t-die-in-Syria-Kiwi-artist

    An interesting comment-

    “”I still have a New Zealand passport and an American green card,” he said.
    “The New Zealand passport is very useful, you do not need visas.”

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  43. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    The Green Party would:

    Consider immigration more at a regional rather than national level and involve tangata whenua in the decision making.
    ………………..

    Maori dislike Asian immigrants more than any other group of New Zealanders, a new poll shows.

    Asians are blamed for taking jobs from Maori, driving Maori to Australia, lacking understanding of the Treaty of Waitangi and competing for cultural funding.

    “The diversity of New Zealand is beginning to undermine the investment we have in biculturalism. [Maori] don’t believe new migrants are sympathetic to biculturalism and the Treaty,” said Massey University pro vice-chancellor, Professor Paul Spoonley.

    Surveys show Maori have an increasingly negative perception of Asians. It is caused by “competition in the labour market . . . and competition for cultural resources,” Spoonley said.

    Maori have a unique position in New Zealand and advancing their cultural and social needs must be put ahead of the needs of immigrants, said Maori Party leader, Te Ururoa Flavell.

    “[Are Maori] more important than anyone else? Possibly. I think that the most important thing is that the people of the country recognise our unique part in the fabric of this nation,” said Flavell.

    He is concerned immigrants are taking much needed jobs from Maori, contributing to disproportionate emigration to Australia. As the indigenous people of New Zealand, the government should put the needs of Maori ahead of new migrants he said.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10081307/Maori-more-important

    We want your opinion? The answers yes.

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  44. Bad__Cat (137 comments) says:

    The elephant in the room: Who actually wants fundamentalist Muslims from the Middle East to become a significant part of our culture, with all the problems that has caused in other western countries?

    I don’t believe I am overly racist, as I never had issues with Christian Lebanese immigrants I was raised with in Henderson, nor with non-Muslim immigrants from the sub continent, nor recent immigrants of all races or combinations from Southern Africa, Europe, the Americas or East Asia.

    I have not studied the Koran, just as I have not studied the Bible. I do believe that both contain instructions, exhortations or beliefs that are just not acceptable in this day and age. As a father I am disgusted with the fundamentalist denigration of women as second class citizens by people who use these texts as proof of their actions and beliefs.

    So until these people decide to join the rest of us in the twenty first century, and are prepared to live by our laws and social mores, I don’t want them here buggering up what is a pretty good place to live.

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  45. Viking2 (11,125 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ (4,813 comments) says:
    June 10th, 2014 at 2:32 pm

    The Greens are explaining their policy far more clearly than Labour explain theirs. There have been at least 2 others that have caught attention – protecting payments to subbies when Companies like Mainzeal collapse is an important one.

    ‘Boat people’ people forced to flee their homes are people NZers have supported over the years, it’s not a good look when any NZ party becomes hysterical about something that is yet to happen or arguing against genuine refugees because there may be some ‘moon lighters’ amongst them. Labour better hold onto their hats because mama green is chewing their cud.
    ==================================

    Having assisted some of these boat people many years ago after Vietnam I can safely say there are plenty of moonlighters among them
    I had a small business then and the church approached me and asked if I could give this fellow a job. He was according to the blurb a Tradesman with the skills to do what we did.
    Well within no time his Son came in with him. He was in fact no a tradesman but had been an owner of a business of similar trade. He never worked at the trade but collected the money.
    I recall one early morning him showing us all the gold in his teeth. Another morning he had a bag full of diamonds.

    Now he wasn’t bad and they eventually moved off to Auckland where they returned to the trade. I think that finally they moved to Australia.
    They worked, made money and as far as I could tell were good citizens.
    Later the sponsors were told by the people at the immigration camp they had figured the guy out before he came to Tauranga.
    So yes their can be people of dubious character hidden among the refugees or boat people.

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  46. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    @DPF
    I take it Jan Logies acumen (immigration) means she is potential cabinet material?

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  47. Rex Widerstrom (5,254 comments) says:

    @Bob_R:

    Thanks for that link, I shall read it this evening. And thanks for your reasoned contribution to this debate. It’s a very salient point – can a Pakeha NZer not hold an opinion on the issue which presupposes advantage for himself and those like him? Because sure as hell almost everyone else with an opinion – and particularly politicians on both sides of the divide – have reached their positions based on what benefits them and not the country as a whole.

    @ hj:

    If we were to have the same inflow of people from (say) the U.K we would have all the same problems and complaints (traffic, infrastructure, house prices – but without ethnic enclaves) but we would be slower to object

    Also a very good, and usually overlooked, point. We can easily see the ratio of, say, Asians to non-Asians in a given street or shopping mall. We can’t easily tell – unless we overhear them – how many are Americans or British or Canadian or European.

    It’s a pity that some people with concerns about immigration opt to single out certain ethnicities, because it then switches the spotlight solely onto those people and we lose sight of the number of Caucasians, which is an equally valid concern. More so, if we’re talking foreign ownership.

    I well recall during the height of NZ First’s popularity, when we were making the argument about immigration and sitting at 29% in the polls (proof, if any was needed, that there’s a sizable constituency for a party that talks about the issue without the racist dogwhistle) an eminent and left-leaning journo admitting that he had searched every speech I wrote for even a soupcon of racism and couldn’t find any.

    It is possible to be opposed to too much immigration and not be a redneck, but you need to be very careful as to how you frame your argument so as to prevent any distraction by your opponents (not that they didn’t try, even in the absence of evidence).

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  48. David Garrett (6,349 comments) says:

    Bad Cat: Very well put…There are a goodly number of us here with a very similar opinion…

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  49. Griff (6,711 comments) says:

    Last one that came was a boat load of real nice sticky thai buds landed on the ninty in the very early eighties. Boat loads of buds has not been tried since as far as I know.
    I started smoking to late and only saw a couple of the actual budha sticks
    It was the Pakistan black hash that a certain Roadie and a few merchant sailors used to turn up with that I was really familiar with but even that dried up around eighty five.
    Our boarders are surprising secure and the distance really precludes refugees coming by the sort of dodgy boats that plague oz. It would have to be into the trades from the coral sea and run south off oz all the way down so if one was heading here the Ozzies would more than likely locate them first and take them to wherever they have set up before they got close enough for them to end up here for the leftys to protect.
    Remember the mad Russian and his dolly bird ? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=104057 I suppose they made it but they really turned up by the back door when they ended up in the manukau The west coast eats boats and spits them out you would need a death wish to aim for it.

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  50. Nostalgia-NZ (4,900 comments) says:

    Viking2. Yes the repairer is often a ‘mechanic’ from some back yard, the brush hand a ‘painter and decorator’. However, you do find good tradesmen among the ranks. For a reversal, a local home handyman is in fact a highly qualified Honk Kong accountant with a good few dollars behind him and one child already a qualified Chemist. A mixed bag like any. I agree that diamonds and gold often tells a different story but of course it isn’t just the poor that flee, and often those cashed up in some way that succeed.

    A ‘crowd’ I am working amongst at the moment have generally surprised me but only because I expected some kind of trouble as the only European Kiwi in the immediate area. It’s none of my business but I get the impression that many of them are not paid as the law requires, I see the 7 days ticking over and so on, late nights etc but still modest cars lucky to make it through the new WOF – but it’s their choice as it should be and many appear to be related – reminds me in some ways of farming families all getting stuck in or the Chinese growers that have done so well here. Fiji has it’s story as to why the Indians arrived there, a good bit of that happening here as well with a number of ethnicities.

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  51. Brian Marshall (187 comments) says:

    Of course the greens are upset by it. They’re full of foreigners that have moved to New Zealand to tell us what we are doing wrong!!

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  52. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    “Let me say clearly now: the housing crisis is not the fault of recent migrants; the unemployment rate is not the fault of recent migrants; and asylum seekers are not a threat to us.”
    —————-
    “Let me say clearly” is a poor second to being able to cite research but since research is saying the opposite she’s left with the second best: her assurance. I wouldn’t buy a used car from her. :roll:

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  53. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    John Carran, 2 April 1996
    “Vehement opposition to immigration, particularly from Asian countries, in New Zealand from an ill-informed and xenophobic rabble persists despite overwhelming evidence that immigration will improve our long term economic prospects.
    In 1988 The Institute of Policy Studies published detailed research by Jacques Poot, Ganesh Nana and Bryan Philpott on the effects of migration on the New Zealand economy. The research, which abstracted from the social and environmental impact of immigration, concluded that “…a significant migration inflow can be beneficial to the performance of the New Zealand economy and subsequent consumption and income levels.” The authors point out that this is in general agreement with Australian research on the economic consequences of immigration.
    -
    -
    Of course there is more to life than attaining economic excellence. The social and environmental impact of immigration also needs to be considered. But here the reasons given for restricting immigration range from pathetic to extremely dodgy. Most of the accusations are barely disguised racist piffle backed by tenuous rumours and cloudy anecdotes. Winston Peters’ stirring of the masses has exposed the ignorance and racial biases of a small and distasteful section of New Zealand society. These people yearn for a cloistered, inhibited, white (with a bit of brown at the edges) dominated utopia fondly envisaged by racists and xenophobes everywhere.

    http://www.gmi.co.nz/news/1021/opposition-to-immigration-why-let-the-arguments-get-in-the-way.aspx
    Savings Working Group
    January 2011
    “The big adverse gap in productivity between New Zealand and other countries opened up from the 1970s to the early 1990s. The policy choice that increased immigration – given the number of employers increasingly unable to pay First-World wages to the existing population and all the capital requirements that increasing populations involve – looks likely to have worked almost directly against the adjustment New Zealand needed to make and it might have been better off with a lower rate of net immigration. This adjustment would have involved a lower real interest rate (and cost of capital) and a lower real exchange rate, meaning a more favourable environment for raising the low level of productive capital per worker and labour productivity. The low level of capital per worker is a striking symptom of New Zealand’s economic challenge.

    http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/reviews-consultation/savingsworkinggroup/pdfs/swg-report-jan11.pdf

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  54. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    2.3 Changing policy expectations
    While useful, models do not capture all the effects policymakers expect from immigration.
    When New Zealand moved to increase the numbers and skills of immigrants in the 1980s
    and 1990s, policymakers appear to have considered that these changes had the potential
    to have major beneficial impacts on the New Zealand economy, reinforcing the gains from
    22
    the other liberalising and deregulating economic reforms undertaken during that period.
    At that time, it was considered that skills-focused inward migration could: improve growth
    by bringing in better quality human capital and addressing skills shortages; improve
    international connections and boost trade; help mitigate the effects of population ageing;
    and have beneficial effects on fiscal balance. As well as “replacing” departing
    New Zealanders and providing particular help with staffing public services (for example,
    medical professionals), it was believed that migration flows could be managed so as to
    avoid possible detrimental effects (such as congestion or poorer economic prospects) for
    existing New Zealanders.

    Since then, New Zealand has had substantial gross and net immigration, which has been
    relatively skill-focused by international standards. However, New Zealand’s economic
    performance has not been transformed. Growth in GDP per capita has been relatively
    lacklustre, with no progress in closing income gaps with the rest of the advanced world,
    and productivity performance has been poor. It may be that initial expectations about the
    potential positive net benefits of immigration were too high.

    Based on a large body of new research evidence and practical experience, the consensus
    among policymakers now is that other factors are more important for per capita growth
    23
    and productivity than migration and population growth. CGE modelling exercises for
    Australia and New Zealand have been influential in reshaping expectations.

    http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-policy/wp/2014/14-10
    Migration and Macroeconomic
    Performance in New Zealand:
    Theory and Evidence
    Julie Fry
    New Zealand Treasury Working Paper 14/10

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  55. Dead Earnest (91 comments) says:

    Next thing they will be blaming high house prices on women who have babies.

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  56. Aussie Aussie Aussie (22 comments) says:

    I am coming over for a Holiday

    and you are all Paying

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  57. Dead Earnest (91 comments) says:

    We can’t deny the fact that this country was built on the back of hard workng immigrants. Successive waves sallied forth from Polynesia, Britian, Europe, Asia and elsewhere to grace our shores.
    Every NZ contributor to this blog either came here on a boat or a plane or his/her ancestors did.
    I believe this country should be actively marketing itself to the right skillsets internationally as a country that welcomes persons with the drive and determination to succeed.
    Blaming immigrants for the high house prices is absurd. This is purely a lack of supply due to achaic planning rules and a head in the sand attitude to development. The UK is a similar size to NZ and easily accomodates 60 million people.
    Every young working immigrant that comes to NZ, is a person that some other country has paid to educate, that immediately is contributing to our economy and that needs a house, chattels, a car, and food. When this is multiplied by 50,000 per year it equates to a colossal stimulas to the economy.
    My only rider is we need to find away to dissuade muslim fundamentalists and overeight Germans with penchants for Nazi regalia

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  58. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Bona fide refugees, yes. But the likes of Ahmed Zaoui, no effen way. How many more of these ragheaded killers have used NZ as a stepping stone to US and Aus?

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  59. hj (6,347 comments) says:

    @ Dead Earnest

    it is important to pay attention to the characteristics of individual
    country experiences, and the possible role of combinations of circumstances. In
    New Zealand, migration policy has made a large difference to population growth,
    throughout history and over the past 20 years.

    In the late 19th century and early 20th century, immigration to New Zealand could be seen
    as reflecting a favourable shock to the tradable sector. Opening up new lands to
    production, falling transport costs, refrigerated shipping combined to lift the population
    capacity of New Zealand while still offering high wages and high rates of return.

    By the middle of the 20th century, New Zealand was settled and producing, and
    technological change in the key export sectors was no longer as rapid (relative to other
    producers). The factor price equalisation justification for strong population growth had
    dissipated, yet population growth remained high. Across the OECD, there is some
    evidence that rapid population growth in post-war advanced countries was associated with
    143
    an apparent cost to per capita growth rates.

    http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-policy/wp/2014/14-10

    “We are all migrants” is a fallacious* argument (apeal to tradition fallacy).

    * poppy-cock b/s, cow- dung.

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  60. ChardonnayGuy (1,131 comments) says:

    I’m utterly sickened and disgusted by both the Aussie LibNat Coalition and ALP’s draconian stances toward refugees and asylum seekers. I hope we never get to that stage in New Zealand political debate. It’s why I despise Winston so much and strongly oppose any talk of a Labour coalition with that man and his sycophantic rabble. That, and my maternal granddad came from India and lost his family there during the 1918 flu epidemic.

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  61. deadrightkev (273 comments) says:

    NZ will need to have a frank and open conversation about what it wants the Kiwi Culture to represent in twenty to fifty years.

    Without strong leadership NZ will be in serious trouble for sure. The separatism and immigration undertones steadily creeping into society, local bodies and government will ensure it not going to end well.

    Already, I can go for a walk and not see or say hi to a Kiwi the whole time. Its unnerving and the funny thing is many of the Asians (as an example)I know don’t want anymore of their former countrymen to follow them to NZ. Says a lot I think.

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  62. Aussie Aussie Aussie (22 comments) says:

    Kiwi Culture is about welcoming everyone else to your country
    and being treated like c r a p and having your butts taxed off you in mine

    Not only that my Grubbermint Milks your Kiwi Property through Capitial gains

    Ca Chingo Ca Chingo $$$$ thanks Noo Zeeland

    then I get to have a tax free holiday on the Dole in your country if I want to

    Awesome

    Thanks John Key

    I especially like all your immigrants you welcome
    who use your country as a cynical stepping stone
    come to Aus
    and them mock your country and your accents
    they laugh all the way to the Bank $$$ ha ha ha

    the respect they have for your “kiwi culture” is astounding

    Not only do we tax the hell out of you we deny you access to most everything while we give it
    to everyone from every country other than NZ

    Awesome

    It should be called the Slave Category Visa

    not special Category Visa

    But there you are You Import the people who will Vote for Your Party
    and we deny you the Vote or a pathway to a passport

    Taxation with out representation
    The Highest form of corruption

    that is how a real democracy Works

    Aus is set to import 10 million what is that
    2 or 3 times the population of NZ ?

    once they are in I hope some visit NZ

    They will treat them well and treat you kiwis like Dog Sh8t

    Multiculturalism is not about “Multiculturalism” at all
    if it was it would be done in a sympathetic way to all cultures and races

    it is not ? is it

    it is about the
    destruction of one race and once Culture only

    The White European one

    and that is what Changing your flag is about

    It is you who should apologise for your existence

    also check the UN Agenda 21

    While everyone talks Patriotic ANZAC C r a p there is one job kiwis can not do in AUS
    join the Army

    The Final Joke in a calculated strategy to separate Aus from its traditional Allies NZ and the US

    so the invasion will be easy

    Suckers

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