Marriage in Luxembourg

June 20th, 2014 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

Lawmakers in , whose prime minister is openly gay, has overwhelmingly approved changes in the small European nation’s legislation governing that will allow people of the same sex to wed and to adopt children.

Sort of amusing that they have a gay PM before they have gay marriage. A country with a PM who couldn’t get married (well not to someone he is attracted to).

But that isn’t what I found most interesting:

Under the reform, Luxembourg’s legislators also fixed the legal age for marriage at 18 and dropped existing legal requirements for a pre-wedding medical exam, as well as the 300-day waiting period that had been imposed on widows or widowers before they could remarry. 

They required a pre-wedding medical exam!! And had a waiting period for widows!

Other strange laws they had:

  • Girls could marry at 16 but boys only at 18
  • Only civil marriages are recognised
  • The blood tests must be within 2 months of the marriage
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54 Responses to “Marriage in Luxembourg”

  1. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    I wish someone had imposed a 300 day waiting period on me before my second – and last – one!!

    Still, as I more than anyone knows, you makes your bed and you lies in it…

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  2. EAD (821 comments) says:

    DPF – do you think us conservatives, libertarians, “bigots” and “rednecks” care who people freely choose to have relationships with as long as they are of legal age and consenting?

    What we hate is big government elites changing millennia old social institutions with no mandate, no popular will and using the pack dog media to abuse anyone who dares to oppose this social engineering being rammed through by Western governments all at the same time (sheer coincidence – yeah right)

    Poor attempt at propaganda.

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  3. ChardonnayGuy (1,183 comments) says:

    Luxembourg is the nineteenth nation to recognise marriage equality. That makes most of northwestern Europe except for Ireland and Finland (which are considering it). And before we get any rabid fundie responses, it’d be more convincing if US antigay groups weren’t collaborating with Uganda, Nigeria, Kenya and elsewhere to introduce antigay legislation when *all* of those nations recognise straight polygamy as perfectly legal.

    Ah. What if the fundies held a demo against marriage equality and nobody came? :) Ask the US antigay “National Organisation for Marriage”… :)

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  4. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    There’s nothing stopping people from entering into a lawful union rather than a civil one. Governments don’t have the power to change what is unlawful into what is lawful.

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  5. ChardonnayGuy (1,183 comments) says:

    EAD: Insofar as “conservatives” regarding relationships being of legal age and consenting, that didn’t stop that filthy paedo Graham Capill from raping three little girls, did it? And as for changing millennia old social institutions with no mandate, some of my centre-right social liberal friends have commented to me that that is exactly what militant fundamentalist agitators are doing to historic Christian denominations like the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand.

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  6. Alan (1,077 comments) says:

    Waiting period for Widows used to be really common. Its designed to clear up paternity issues with children.

    Less relevant with DNA testing.

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  7. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    Chardonnay: What a disgraceful POS that Capill is…remember that wonderful TV 3 shot – played ad nauseum – of his getting a whack from some guy outside the Christchurch District Court? Remember his pathetic whining on the ground while his lawyer wrestled with the guy??

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  8. big bruv (13,552 comments) says:

    DG

    I want to know why his Lawyer did not take the opportunity to put the boot in as well.

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  9. EAD (821 comments) says:

    Mr Guy – are you trying to conflate one man’s actions with one side of the political spectrum?

    That’s like saying all of the Statist side of the political spectrum are wannabe Hitler’s or Stalin’s or Pol Pots. You do realise Hitler was the original greenie right?

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  10. Huevon (211 comments) says:

    Marriage “equality”…give me a break.

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  11. Liam Hehir (119 comments) says:

    ChardonnayGuy,

    I’m not sure what the probative value of the crimes you cited are. Are you saying that traditionalists are in favour of such things? How does one man’s crimes cast doubt on the validity of the longheld beliefs of billions of people?

    Or are you just trying to lower the tone?

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  12. Redbaiter (8,000 comments) says:

    Go the way Europe goes people.

    That’s a great idea.

    Look how well things are going over there.

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  13. Kiwi Dave (81 comments) says:

    UT: “Governments don’t have the power to change what is unlawful into what is lawful.”

    Really? Once it was unlawful for women to vote; now it’s lawful. This change was made by lawmakers.

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  14. gump (1,542 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter

    Actually, if you bother to read the article you will discover that Luxembourg is following us.

    And for that matter – what exactly do you think is wrong with Luxembourg? It’s one if the wealthiest and best educated states in Europe.

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  15. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    It’s in Europe, which Reddy is convinced has been abandoned to the socialists and the Muslim hordes. Also, it’s not Singapore.

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  16. Other_Andy (2,505 comments) says:

    Everything goes and if it doesn’t exist we legislate it in existence….

    Glenn Reynolds has been blogging about this for some time.

    http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/?s=21st+century+relationships

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  17. thedavincimode (6,589 comments) says:

    No farmer would ever purchase a new sire without having the vet check out its cods.

    Dropping the medical exam is a bit short-sighted given that the only purpose of marriage is to have children who can eventually support the parent generation in the sanctity of marriage that exists only between man and woman.

    To make matters worse, they have also legislated for compulsory man on man action (which cannot by definition be “sex”).

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  18. ChardonnayGuy (1,183 comments) says:

    David G: Mate, I could not agree more about Capill. And speaking personally, any time that the SST decides that it wants to prolong the duration of child sexual abuse prison sentences, I will unreservedly support them.

    Liam: Insofar as ‘traditionalist’ support for child sexual abuse goes, there is the scourge of Catholic clergy pedophilia, facilitated by institutional concealment, denial of its prevalence, enablement of further offending through transfer, inadequate internal oversight and disciplinary procedures, lack of accountability and transparency toward victims etc. The fact that other institutions, such as the BBC, lacked similar internal safeguards is no excuse.

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  19. anonymouse (708 comments) says:

    And had a waiting period for widows

    A 300 day waiting period is very common in many countries, (Italy, France, Turkey, Japan, Thailand etc )
    it basically applies to the ending ot the previous marriage,

    It is to solve isues of “un-determined” parentage that sometimes happen if a new husband does not beleive that they were responsible for an impending child …

    The laws were all written well before ultrasound scans etc…

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  20. Scott (1,736 comments) says:

    Interesting to me that the legislation allows gays to marry and adopt children. This is presumably happening or will happen in New Zealand soon. The great thing that liberal say is that it doesn’t matter what consenting adults do in their own homes but they normally draw the line at children.

    Here we have 2 men who can get married and then adopt children. I can think of few more hazardous moral situations than allowing 2 gay men to adopt an unrelated boy.

    In the past we would have been aghast at the notion. We would have thought that it was obvious that a man and a woman being married was the best environment to raise a child.

    But now with the rise of gay rights all of our understandings of human nature and how human nature works have to be thrown out the window. We have to get used to the brave new world that undermines all of our old values and all of our dare I say Christian understandings that undergirds our moral civilisation.

    Isn’t gay rights a wonderful thing??

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  21. Don the Kiwi (1,646 comments) says:

    “Insofar as ‘traditionalist’ support for child sexual abuse goes, there is the scourge of Catholic clergy pedophilia, ”

    Paedophilia ?????

    What a load of rubbish -it was homosexuality – lets get it right, and which is not condoned either.

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  22. Other_Andy (2,505 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi says:
    “What a load of rubbish -it was homosexuality”

    It was Pederasty which is a sub-set of homosexuality– lets get it right.

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  23. ChardonnayGuy (1,183 comments) says:

    Bullshit, Don. Here, have a look at these…

    http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

    “Homosexuality and pedophilia are not synonymous. In fact, it may be that these two orientations are mutually exclusive, the reason being that the homosexual male is sexually attracted to masculine qualities whereas the heterosexual male is sexually attracted to feminine characteristics, and the sexually immature child’s qualities are more feminine than masculine…The child offender who is attracted to and engaged in adult sexual relationships is heterosexual. It appears, therefore, that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater sexual risk to underage children than does the adult homosexual male.”

    A. Nicholas Groth, William F. Hobson, and Thomas S. Gary, “The Child Molester: Clinical Observations,” in Social Work and Child Sexual Abuse, eds. Jon R. Conte and David A. Shore (New York: Haworth Press, 1982), p.136.

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  24. ChardonnayGuy (1,183 comments) says:

    Scott: FFS, most child sexual abuse occurs within families and consists of father/daughter incest, or else sexual abuse of female children by predatory male relatives. At a guess, I’d say that same-sex incest, with the remainder occurring outside the family context, perpetrated by other predatory adults, usually male, although sadly, some female offenders also exist in smaller proportions. Interesting that the subject has turned from child sexual abuse against girls to boys. In some cases, could it possibly be the case that the trauma, pain and ordeal of child sexual abuse against girls is being downplayed in the interests of cheap point scoring. And as my comments above indicate, I’m certainly not in favour of leniency toward any sort of pedophile or incestuous parent of whatever gender, no matter what gender of child that they rape. In fact, I believe the exact opposite.

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  25. Don the Kiwi (1,646 comments) says:

    Chardy Guy.

    Your link IMO supports my view – that the clerical sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was not pedophilia, but homosexuality – in fact, Other Andy’s point is more correct, but pederasty is a sub-set of homosexuality.

    It has been a opportune alliteration – “pedophile priests” endorsed and promoted by a compliant media. But that does not make it correct.

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  26. tom hunter (4,556 comments) says:

    … the reason being that the homosexual male is sexually attracted to masculine qualities …

    What? Are you sure you’re gay and that you actually hang out with gay guys????

    I’m serious because anybody who ever has would laugh at that broad brush characterisation. It would be more accurate to say that there is a subset of gay guys who love masculine traits and a subset who like feminine traits and there sure as hell is a subset that like young boys, with questions about the age of consent often waved away in the heat of the moment.

    Along these lines my friend in San Francisco told me of an amusing incident a couple of years ago with her gay neighbours across the street. She’d got a male friend of hers to help out with some heavy lifting during house DIY, and during the day one of the gay guys asked for some help at their place. He came across the street with a little Shitsu tucked under his arm and the dog started going berserk around my friends mate. Asked what the problem was the gay guy’s priceless response was:
    “He doesn’t like being around men”.

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  27. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    Chardonnay gay guy supports the idea that children should be made parentless by gay design!

    They are currently brought from poor sorrogate women in eastern europe, india and asia. For a few thousand dollars!

    Currently the babies are not only torn from the arms of their mothers, but torn from their culture and history as well!

    Just like the slave traders did with blacks from Africa!

    There is no such thing as being born gay – so then there are just homosexual acts – which the government CAN AND DOES legislate against – homosexual age for example.

    The homosexual community are nothing more than sexual marxists – who want to destroy the foundations of western society and dance within it’s ruins.

    When one looks in the mirror – the reflection you see is yourself.

    But when a homo looks at his reflection – he instead looks at his ‘husband’ – someone who ‘comforts & supports’ him – for being exactly the same.

    Anyone can see that ain’t nothing like marriage – but the pleasing conformation that one is proudly gay! :cool:

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  28. Kiwi Dave (81 comments) says:

    TDM @ 11.25 ” …the only purpose of marriage is to have children who can eventually support the parent generation…’

    I didn’t know this was the case when I first married, but thought children were just one aspect of marriage and, as G B Shaw observed, marriage combines the maximum of temptation with the maximum of opportunity. When my second wife and I remarried (both over 50), having children was definitely not the purpose. Does this mean our 12 year marriage is purposeless and we should divorce?

    “…compulsory man on man action…” Do tell us more. I need to be prepared when some government bureaucrat notices I have missed out on this.

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  29. thedavincimode (6,589 comments) says:

    Does this mean our 12 year marriage is purposeless and we should divorce?

    Yes, apparently, it does. You appear to have missed out on the erudite arguments advanced to that effect by the leading lights of the god-bothering fraternity in the context of their objections to the gay marriage bill and their concerns regarding the enslavement of the community in compulsory anal sex.

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  30. Longknives (4,678 comments) says:

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/couple-offered-son-to-paedophiles-20130630-2p5eg.html

    Kind of fucks Chardonnay Guy’s piss-weak argument…
    *Let’s not forget these two were the absolute ‘Poster Boys’ for Gay Adoption…

    “Newton and Truong claimed they were being targeted because they were homosexual.”
    Of course they did…

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  31. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi: Not sure if you are serious or taking the piss…”pederasty is a sub set of homosexuality”?? The filthy Graham Capill is mentioned elsewhere in this thread…as far as I know the prick is resolutely heterosexual…As are many other “pederasts”…Yes, there are certainly gay paedophiles too, and all the gay guys I know despise them…

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  32. big bruv (13,552 comments) says:

    I do wonder why the sky fairy followers like Don insist on telling lies about child rapists. The scum who commit these crimes are overwhelmingly heterosexual or, are celibate priests.

    The late Christopher Hitchens once said about his good friend Stephen Fry that he would happily have allowed Fry to baby sit his kids. Hitchens then went on to say that if a Catholic Priest ever knocked on his door and offered his services as a baby sitter he would first call a taxi and then the police.

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  33. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I don’t know why the sexual orientation of child molesters is of such importance, rather than their actual crimes. Is it just an opportunity to smear all homosexuals?

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  34. Longknives (4,678 comments) says:

    I don’t know why the religious orientation of child molesters is of such importance, rather than their actual crimes. Is it just an opportunity to smear all Christians?

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  35. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Longknives
    It seems to me to be the case that we have some religious organizations with seriously bad records in condoning, and covering up, child sexual abuse. That might just be enough to do serious damage to the brand.

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  36. big bruv (13,552 comments) says:

    “Is it just an opportunity to smear all Christians?”

    No, just trying to get Catholics to admit that they harbour child rapists

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  37. Longknives (4,678 comments) says:

    Mikenmild- Absolutely! Churches that cover up Child Sex abuse are fucking disgraceful.
    Just waiting for you to cast your ire also on the seemingly beyond-reproach ‘Rainbow Community’ who seem to actively support the behaviour mentioned in my 1:47 post.
    Oh and let’s not forget School Teachers…

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  38. Other_Andy (2,505 comments) says:

    David Garrett says:

    “Don the Kiwi: Not sure if you are serious or taking the piss…”pederasty is a sub set of homosexuality”??”

    According to the dictionary:
    Pederasty or paederasty (US /ˈpɛdəræsti/ or UK /ˈpiːdəræsti/) is a (usually erotic) homosexual relationship between an adult male and a pubescent or adolescent male.

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  39. Redbaiter (8,000 comments) says:

    “I do wonder why the sky fairy followers like Don insist on telling lies about child rapists.”

    I wonder why decent people like Don bother giving lunatic cowards and liars like you the time of day.

    Endless strawmen that for their profligacy and their idiocy are just not worth the effort of trying to correct.

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  40. scrubone (3,081 comments) says:

    “I do wonder why the sky fairy followers like Don insist on telling lies about child rapists.”

    I’ve yet to see an atheist be honest about the more serious problems that the teaching profession has.

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  41. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    Chardonnay: Except that the arguments against CP for murder apply with the same force as using it for paedophilia, I would be quite happy to see the punishment for same being a bullet in the head…

    And some little weasel can run off to the Law Society if they wish, but if any convicted paedo gets his in jail I don’t give a flying you know what…In fact I wonder if we should keep allowing them to be segregated…be interesting to see what a few instances of summary justice in the exercise yard would do to the stats…

    Other Andy: I stand corrected…I always thought “pederast” was a synonym for “paedophile”…thank you for pointing that out.

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  42. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    This story from a couple of days back must have been missed by some on this thread:

    British orphans say they were abused before being sent to Australia

    [A] Times investigation that has uncovered evidence that some of the 6000 to 7000 children sent to Australia were sexually and physically abused in British institutions before they left. More sexual abuse began on their arrival in Australia.

    Peter Bagshaw, now living in Perth, was eight when his parents split up in the late 1950s. He was placed in institutions in Lincolnshire and later Cornwall where he was sexually abused by staff.

    “It happened probably once a week. Being so young, there was nothing I could do about it. You got told not to talk about it,” Mr Bagshaw, 66, recalled. The sexual abuse continued until he was 14 when he was told he was being sent to Australia. He was overjoyed to be escaping his tormentors. “One young boy had gone to Australia the year before and he used to write to me and telling me how nice it was,” he said.

    On arrival at Fairbridge Farm School, in Pinjarra, Western Australia, however, he discovered that child migrants were used as cheap labour. He was put to work from 3am each day.

    A school staff member befriended him and, taking him from the school one night, promised to look after him. However, he began to abuse the 14-year-old and threatened to abandon him in the wild if he spoke out. Mr Bagshaw later escaped his tormentor and met a part-Aboriginal girl to whom he has been married for 45 years.

    Michael O’Donoghue can still remember realising as a three -year-old that his war-widowed mother would not be coming back to collect him from Nazareth House in Romsey, Hampshire, where she had abandoned him in 1947. The sex abuse started when he was five. “It was done by a teacher,” he said. “It was done regularly in the toilets and the dormitory.”

    The spotlight is now widening.

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  43. Don the Kiwi (1,646 comments) says:

    “big bruv (12,751 comments) says:
    June 20th, 2014 at 3:00 pm
    I do wonder why the sky fairy followers like Don insist on telling lies about child rapists. The scum who commit these crimes are overwhelmingly heterosexual or, are celibate priests.”

    As usual, big bigot is allowing his vile and extreme bigotry to lead him by his porcine snout.

    I would really like to see this dickhead, who no-one believes because of his bigotry on this topic, to look at the sexual abuse that goes on in our schools. Perhaps he can condemn the Education department – or the minister of Educattion for being “pedophiles” – instead of the individuals who, consumed by their homosexual desires, inflict children with their perversions.

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  44. Don the Kiwi (1,646 comments) says:

    “David Garrett (5,876 comments) says:
    June 20th, 2014 at 2:49 pm
    Don the Kiwi: Not sure if you are serious or taking the piss…”pederasty is a sub set of homosexuality”??”

    I gather, David, that you are now “repentant” ;-) of your comment to me, now that Other Andy has sorted the issue.?

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  45. big bruv (13,552 comments) says:

    Don.

    Nobody denies that there are some examples of sexual abuse having happened in our schools. The difference Don is that when it is uncovered the authorities do not attempt to cover it up. Nor do the authorities move the child abusers or those who covered the abuse up into a flat provided by the education system in a place where they cannot be touched by the courts.

    Now, contrast that to what the Catholic church has done and continues to do, ask yourself this Don, is Cardinal Bernard Law still living in church provided accommodation?

    As for your continuing lie re homosexuals being the perpetrators of child rape. Most of the men who commit child rape are heterosexual, or, in the case of the Catholic Church, are supposedly celibate priests.

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  46. Judith (8,375 comments) says:

    Paedophilia is not homosexuality and the vast majority of child rapes is male to female.

    The paedophile is attracted to the immature mind and body – therefore the sex of their victim is irrelevant.

    A homosexual is attracted to the mature sexualised form of someone of the same sex.

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  47. Don the Kiwi (1,646 comments) says:

    big bigot.

    More of your lies and bullshit. I just happen to know a couple of schoolteachers who have kept track of the number of “transfers” and “silent dismissals” over the past 5 or 6 years that would make you want to commit hari-kari, if you want to stick by your statement. The number is possibly as high as 20 times the sexual abuse crisis in the Cathoiic Church.

    But that’s okay, bigotmeitser, keep up with your delusions – no-one believes you.

    And keep fantasizing about ex-Cardinal Bernard Law; he is in forced retirement – what you might call, “A prisoner of the Vatican” :-)

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  48. kowtow (7,921 comments) says:

    The difference is…….none really. Northland school ignores police warning.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/113931/lawyer-says-school-ignored-warning-over-teacher

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  49. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    Sorry Don…the Catholic church is well and truly in the frame re paedophile priests and brothers…While there are obviously paedo teachers in the secular system, every second one of the brothers who taught in NZ 30 years ago were bent…

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  50. Don the Kiwi (1,646 comments) says:

    David.
    That is total and utter bullshit.

    I went to two Catholic Marist colleges at different times and knew dozens of brothers. None of them – repeat none – were ever accused, nor any suggestion of any misconduct.
    I know of only one priest in NZ who has been convicted of homosexual misconduct – not pedophile BTW – and there have been two others that I am aware of who were under suspicion.
    And there are those two or three brothers who have been convicted.
    Now you may be party to more names, as you went – I believe – to a school where religious brothers taught. But to say that 1 out of 2 brothers is “pedo” or molesters, and many priests the same is a downright lie and exageration.
    OTOH, I actually know at least three teachers (known by me personly) from one small town that molested students – one offended against 8 – 10 year olds, and was prosecuted.

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  51. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    Don: OK, 1:2 IS probably an exaggeration..You are correct that I went to a Marist school…there were 7 or 8 Brothers teaching there … one of them was fiddling with one of my friends when he took him away on camps…Just Br Maurus (He’s dead so I don’t mind using his name) and my mate…his parents thought it was great that Br Maurus was showing such an interest in their son, which shows how total the trust was back then… X felt very uncomfortable about what was happening and told me about it…another, Br Bede Hampton, was convicted of sexual violation and rape of boys in Masterton…(I am happy to use his name too; his crimes and sentence were in the paper) he was at a Marist school in Masterton before coming to us about 1973..

    It took near on 40 years for him to finally be charged and convicted…and lest you think he might have been innocent and the victim of a malicious complaint, he pleaded guilty to all charges except the sexual violation…the jury didn’t believe him, and convicted him on that charge too..

    So there’s 2/7 that we know of, at just ONE Marist school…From talking to people over the course of my life I have no doubt that what happened at Edmund Campion College Gisborne in the ’70′s is entirely typical. Crucially, I know of no convictions for paedo behaviour from any other school in the hometown, although there may have been some.

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  52. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    Oh, and I forgot Br X (still alive so can’t be named) who used to become highly sexually aroused when he caned us…You had to bend down so you could see him through your legs…..he would shake and make strange noises…at the time we didn’t know quite what was happening, just that it was something very odd…Now it’s obvious it was sexual arousal…Because he lost control while caning, we just knew to take to or three strokes and then make for the door…he would slash at the door jamb and at us running down the stairs outside the office…

    Anyone have a similar tale from a state school? Pity this is a dead thread…

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  53. nasska (10,878 comments) says:

    …..” Pity this is a dead thread…”…..

    If it wasn’t before your revelations the left footers will now be giving it the Last Rites & a quick burial. :)

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  54. Don the Kiwi (1,646 comments) says:

    David.

    Yes, that’s a pretty terrible indictment on those men who were unable to restrain their own immoral urges. I agree with a previous comment of yours – a bullet is probably too good for them.
    The years i went to school were in the 50′s, so obviously I am a bit older than you. Much of the clerical sexual abuse scandal occurred during the years you are talking about, and because many institutions – not just the Catholic Church – brushed them under the table because – “kids make up stories” – and these terrible abuses are coming to light many years later now that the victims are adults and aging.
    I know personally the retired senior judge who helped draw up the protocols for the Church in around 1992 when some of these problems first started to emerge.
    One of the cases of abuse that I mentioned was in primary school back in the early 50′s. This teacher we had (state school) liked giving bays the strap on the bum. One time he hit a boy, a friend of mine in our class so hard that it cut his skin on his bum. His parents went ape, and the teacher was transferred. Stories later emerged of other fiddling that he had perpetrated, but he disappeared from our area, so who knows who else he abused.

    Have a good day.

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