Putin arranging anti-fracking protests

June 24th, 2014 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

The Guardian reports:

The head of one of the world’s leading groups of democratic nations has accused of undermining projects using hydraulic fracturing technology in Europe.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen, secretary-general of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato), and former premier of Denmark, told the Chatham House thinktank in London on Thursday that ’s government was behind attempts to discredit , according to reports.

Rasmussen said: “I have met allies who can report that Russia, as part of their sophisticated information and disinformation operations, engaged actively with so-called non-governmental organisations – environmental organisations working against shale gas – to maintain European dependence on imported Russian gas.”

So Putin is allied with the Greens! I love it.

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79 Responses to “Putin arranging anti-fracking protests”

  1. Lucia Maria (2,428 comments) says:

    I’ve long suspected this to be the case, though it’s become more obvious this year.

    It’s also in Russia’s interests to demonise coal.

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  2. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    Anders Fogh Rasmussen is an old war mongering goat.

    This crap is up there with John Kerry claiming that the United States is not responsible for the chaos in Libya and Iraq

    “The United States of America is not responsible for what happened in Libya, nor is it responsible for what is happening in Iraq today,

    Western leadership has gone insane – if it wasn’t for the fact the Putin is a sane sensible adult the nuclear missiles would have been flying months ago.

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  3. Manolo (13,775 comments) says:

    Can anyone check Gareth Hughes passport? Has he visited Moscow lately?

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  4. Fentex (978 comments) says:

    So Putin is allied with the Greens!

    One person makes an unsubstantiated claim and because it’s a humorous tickle to think it makes allies of disliked people the allegation is cheerfully repeated.

    Sure it’s funny, but not very careful nor flattering to standards of credibility. If it is in turn used as a justification or foundation for further complaint or argument sans evidence it will undermine rather than complement the position of people using it.

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  5. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    It’s also in Russia’s interests to demonise coal.

    Its in America’s interests to demonize Russia in order to sell foolish Europeans weapons systems they don’t need and gas that costs twice as much as gas piped from Siberia.

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  6. Kleva Kiwi (289 comments) says:

    Everybody should watch the documentary “fracknation” (its on youtube & netflix) it goes into depth the hysteria and hyperbole surrounding the anti fracking nutters.

    Highlights include the EPA visiting a resident that’s adamant his water is toxic and telling him all tests indicate the water is fine, then him going off his nut accusing them of lying and conspiracy.

    The hysteria over a process that takes 3 days out of a 30-40 year life of the well. I cant believe people are this stupid.

    Russias main export is Gas. It accounts for the majority of Russian exports. Europe is dependent on this. Several European countries are siting on huge shale gas reserves that are untapped and will lead to energy independence for those countries. Its not an unsubstantiated claim.

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  7. Yoza (1,875 comments) says:

    Anders Fogh Rasmussen, secretary-general of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato).

    I think you will find that, as a prerequisite for serving in the upper echelons of Nato, one must regularly demonise Russian while uncovering sophisticated plots designed to bring down Western civilization.

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  8. Barnsley Bill (983 comments) says:

    Not far fetched at all. The soviets funnelled money to CND in the UK in the 80’s. Smart geopolitics by Putin. Squash fuel self sufficiency among client states.

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  9. redqueen (563 comments) says:

    Yeah, I love how NATO is now ‘one of the world’s leading groups of democratic nations’. What would the Guardian have said 30 years ago? Would it have been ‘one of the repressive force of capitalist imperialism’?

    Anyway, this is a bit funny, because Western nations go around doing this all of the time. The US Government attempts to interfere in other countries intellectual property laws, based on it being ‘key’ to trade deals. The EU has the CAP and the Americans have massive agricultural subsidies. How are the Russians any more sinister? They are merely trying to protect their own economic base. It just happens that Europe is rich and being touchy, but the US and EU smell of roses…

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  10. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    There is nothing wrong with fracking except that it costs a lot more to produce the gas thanis economic given the size of the reserves held by Russia and the existing pipeline structure to deliver it to Europe as well as new pipelines and fields currently under development.

    This is why America has F**ked up Ukraine because many of the pipelines go through there

    And this is why Bulgaria has been leaned upon to stop construction of the South Stream pipeline.

    Anders Fogh Rasmussen of course needs an enemy for NATO to justify its sorry existence, it really only is an occupation force for Europe to keep Europeans in line and to make them pay for the privilege of being told what to do by Washington

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  11. Ross12 (1,428 comments) says:

    The fact that this is in Guardian should make anyone sit up and take notice because they would have to be one of the more pro Green newspapers around. I’m surprised they even published it.
    Kleva Kiwi’s last paragraph sums it up well –Putin is not stupid and he is just using tactics that many countries or large companies/organisations use or have used in the past.
    It says more about the Green organisations than anyone else , in that they allow themselves to be used like this.

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  12. Ashley Schaeffer (487 comments) says:

    Putin isn’t allied with the Greens. He is using the Greens to help protect Russian commercial interests. They are his useful idiots.

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  13. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    And people berated me when I stated the Greens were treasonous bastards, Norman being the worst!

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  14. Hamish_NZ (46 comments) says:

    As others have said, Russia and the USSR before them have always funded left/communist groups in the west as a proxy for direct conflict or diplomatic approaches. It’s in their interest to fuel dissent within western nations as a means of growing their influence in the world.
    NZ is no different, we use the All Blacks for soft diplomacy. But we don’t actively use it for creating dissent within nations.

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  15. alloytoo (543 comments) says:

    A few weeks ago, after the rugger and a couple of beers I put forward to my mates that Greenpeace was a front for middle eastern concerns looking to retain markets and prevent discovery of new reserves.

    Looks like I was half right.

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  16. EAD (1,087 comments) says:

    It is perfectly logical for Putin to jail Greenies who annoy him in Russia and bankroll Greenies who can do his work in Europe.

    I cannot understand why anybody is having a problem reconciling the two – My enemy’s enemy is my friend?

    But of course the Greenies and big government fanatics cannot see which is no surprise. Just like supporting Islam and simultaneously cheering on gay marriage and Woman’s rights, they do seem to suffer from an extreme form of Cognitive Dissonance.

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  17. alloytoo (543 comments) says:

    Hamish_NZ

    If you’re accusing the All Blacks of being soft, Ritchie and the boys would like a word……

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  18. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    Let me try and wake you people up

    Vladimir Putin as leader of the Russian Federation , unlike the USA he has not been investing his nations resources in a large military machine to try and dominate the world, rather he has been developing his nations infra structure to exploit the vast natural resources it contains, which is not only gas but minerals and timber.

    He has also re-opened the old silk road so that goods from the East and West can flow freely cross Eurasia.

    One of the consequences of this is that the standard of living of ordinary Russians has risen dramatically over the past decade and this is why Putin is the most popular world leader in his home country.

    It is also why Russia is not in debt but is owed money even by the mighty USA who owe Russia at this point, about 106 billion dollars, which is small change compared to the USA’s total debt – particulrly to China

    Russia has the worlds largest energy reserves, China has a bigger manufacturing economy than the USA.

    The American establishment is panicking as their economic dominance declines and as Western Europe turns to the East, which is in its own economic interests to do the USA becomes a backwater.

    All it has is its military and as a result it has become a gangster state using that military to bully other nations into submission to its will.

    I think there is a good chance that as America fails it will lash out and we will get WW3 – I think they are trying to provoke that in Ukraine

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  19. tom hunter (4,850 comments) says:

    Last year it was revealed that the Matt Damon anti-fracking movie, Promised Land, had gained substantial backing from a media group owned by United Arab Emirates. This resulted in some fairly embarrassing Q & A at a most un-Hollywood style press conference. The movie bombed, partly because of this revelation as well as the utterly false claims made – so false in fact that the movie had to have a re-write to switch its core conspiracy theory around. Although the fact that it was a Matt Damon vehicle was probably the main cause for it being a flop.

    It’s therefore quite understandable and not at all conspiratorial that Putin would do this. In fact it’s right out of the playbook of the old KGB.

    Western leadership has gone insane …

    Collective insanity is very rare phenomena, Stalin’s inner court being a good example. By contrast the cases of individuals becoming utterly unhinged, usually over a single issue, are all too common…..

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  20. metcalph (1,430 comments) says:

    Yeah, I love how NATO is now ‘one of the world’s leading groups of democratic nations’. What would the Guardian have said 30 years ago? Would it have been ‘one of the repressive force of capitalist imperialism’?

    Whatever the Guardian might have said 30 years ago has very little to do with what NATO actually is. The first Secretary-General of NATO was a Belgian Socialist who viewed it as the stepping stone towards a European union.

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  21. Hamish_NZ (46 comments) says:

    @alloytoo
    Ritchie has a broken/cracked rib at the moment, wouldn’t be a fair discussion :)

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  22. peterwn (3,273 comments) says:

    Is that why these Greenpeace people at Murmansk were released fairly expeditiously – and the Russians have now released the ‘Arctic Sunrise’.

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  23. tom hunter (4,850 comments) says:

    What would the Guardian have said 30 years ago? Would it have been ‘one of the repressive force of capitalist imperialism’?

    Very likely since that was one of the standard lines from “moderate, Western, centre-leftists” of the day – as were sentiments such as this:

    it really only is an occupation force for Europe to keep Europeans in line and to make them pay for the privilege of being told what to do by Washington

    I really must watch again the classic 1950’s movie, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, with it’s metaphorical fears of people’s minds being taken over by Soviet Communists. Setting aside that whole aspect I always thought it was Science Fiction but it seems that I’m seeing it play out in real life in the 21st century.

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  24. gravedodger (1,566 comments) says:

    Whats the news there, Putin is a communist who has put on a green Jacket, WTF is Norman?

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  25. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    Tom Hunter can you tell me why NATO exists and why member States are supposed to spend 2% of the GDP on it?

    Seriously what value does it add to the citizens of the countries who have membership?

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  26. Albert_Ross (293 comments) says:

    Richie has a broken/cracked rib at the moment, wouldn’t be a fair discussion

    Indeed. I wouldn’t take him on unless /all/ of his ribs were broken, not just one.

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  27. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    Seriously what value does it add to the citizens of the countries who have membership?

    Its a non-aggression treaty that works. It means Germany and Italy (and now Poland) don’t have nukes.

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  28. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    Its a non-aggression treaty that works.

    Tell that to the 50,000+ people of Libya who died under NATO bombs.

    Libya was the richest nation in Africa until NATO came-a-calling and bombed them into anarchy

    Tell that fairy tale to the people of Yugoslavia a Nation that vanished from the map of Europe under NATO Bombs and regions of which are still occupied by NATO where the “native” women a regulary raped by NATO pigs

    Tell that to the people of Cyprus who had their bank accounts looted and forced to hold a parade of foreign perverts in a celebration of sodomy.

    etc

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  29. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Gazprom cut off gas supplies to the Ukraine about a week ago. They want their money.
    “”We have been informed that gas deliveries to Ukraine have been reduced to zero, with only the volumes sent for transit to European states,” Ukrainian Energy Minister Yuriy Prodan told a government meeting, adding that Ukraine would “ensure reliable gas transits to European countries.”
    The BBC reports that the Russian state-owned gas giant Gazprom said that from now on, it expected Ukraine to pay for its gas supplies upfront.
    The company originally wanted $1.95bn out of $4.5bn owed to it by 6am this morning, but failing that, the organisation ceased supplies and filed a lawsuit against Ukraine’s state-owned Naftogaz in Stockholm’s arbitration court.”
    “The BBC notes that about 15 percent of Europe’s gas supply is Russian gas which is piped through Ukraine.”
    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/06/16/Russia-has-reduced-to-zero-gas-shipments-for-Ukraine–Kiev

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  30. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    Yep All_on_Red they don’t have money to pay their gas bill despite the American taxpayer just having loaned them $3 billion dollars

    But the do have the money, that American $3 billion dollars presumably, to flatten and destroy the most productive part of their nation and murder the inhabitants that live there.

    Even as we speak they are shelling Slavyansk and Privolnoe, despite there supposedly being a ceasefire.

    This will be under instructions from the US State Department of course who are really running the show.

    These ****s actually want an excuse to create a major war in Europe, they are abominably evil.

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  31. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Why would the US wish to create a war in Europe?

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  32. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    Why would the US wish to create a war in Europe?

    They want to be the sole super power and are trying to stop the rise of Russia and China as major players in Eurasia.

    They are also fomenting problems for China in the Pacific as we speak – Obama’s so called “Asian Pivot”

    They are running out of time – they are borrowing a billion dollars a day, that massive military machine does not come cheap and the up coming Nations are starting to dispense with the dollar as a mechanism of trade but are using Renminbi, Rubles and Euro instead.

    The writing is on the wall, its just a matter of how the collapse occurs, with whimper or a big bang

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  33. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Some fantasy there. Go ahead, revel in the imagined rise of your favourite authoritarian regimes. Democracy will out eventually.

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  34. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Andrei
    I do think you’re stretching to suggest the USA wants war. I get the feeling Americans have had enough of war. But, it seems clear that the EU were actively wooing Ukraine and trying to get them into the EU as part of their own expansionist plans. I suspect that the Gas and Oil reserves in the Black Sea and Crimea were very much part of that motivation as the EU is desperate to reduce energy dependency from Russia. It’s all backfired as poking the Russian Bear hasn’t really worked out as planned. Putin has outplayed them. The EU doesn’t have an army so running to mummy USA is about all they can do.
    Interesting to see the new Ukraine president is chummy with Putin too…
    I also think both side are fomenting mischief by funding and supplying the warring factions. I really can’t see Putin wanting all of the Ukraine and why would he, it has no resources and would just be a fiscal drag. He’s got the bit he wants and that’s Crimea. The rest is just a ” buffer. ” zone.

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  35. stephieboy (3,091 comments) says:

    Andrei (2,457 comments) says:
    June 24th, 2014 at 2:51 pm

    Utter drivel coming from Putin’s official KB spokesman.

    50,000 Libyans died under NATO bombs.??
    Heard of UN article 1973. ? An explanation as to why Putin and Russia abstained instead of vetoing .?
    Maybe RT and V of R has an explanation.?

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  36. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Mikey
    The horse has already bolted. Russia and China are very much working together . Gazprom signed a 30 year contract to supply gas to China. New direct pipelines are being built and new trade routes opened. In London the renminbi is now traded as the prime currency standard instead of US dollars. We are doing the same here in NZ.
    They are both conducting joint military exercises RIGHT now near Japan. It’s clear they very much cooperate with each other.
    The US is definitely not the worlds major power anymore.

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  37. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I disagree. The US remains the single superpower, with a reach and influence that Russia and China can still only dream of. Take Russia seriously when it can invade and occupy two countries at the same time without using its full capability.

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  38. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    Heard of UN article 1973

    Yep it authorized the establishment of a “no fly zone”, it did not authorise a bombing campaign and Putin explicitly and very reluctantly publically agreed to abstain on that basis. ie that there would be no bombing

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  39. cha (4,018 comments) says:

    The US is definitely not the worlds major power anymore.

    In pictures.

    http://pgpf.org/sites/default/files/sitecore/media%20library/PGPF/Chart-Archive/0053_defense-comparison-crop.gif

    http://www.globalfirepower.com/aircraft-total.asp

    http://www.floatingpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/All-The-Worlds-Aircraft-Carriers.gif

    http://publicagendaarchives.org/files/charts/ff_amglobalrole_countries_nuclear.png

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  40. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Mikey
    The USA is bankrupt. They can’t fund anything. China and Russia together are getting bigger and China for one has been increasing its military spending big time. They are catching up and will soon overtake the US in strength.
    The only thing the US has left of any import is it’s Carrier fleet and they can’t afford to run more than two at once or replace them. They are now actively retiring aircraft and ships.

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  41. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    Take Russia seriously when it can invade and occupy two countries at the same time without using its full capability.

    This is something that Russia has no desire or intention of doing and also thinks is wrong for other countries to do

    Putin believes in self determination and National Sovereignty – listen to what he says and not CNN or the BBC and you’ld realize this

    e.g.

    There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal.

    Vladimir V. Putin president of Russia. September 11 2013

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  42. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘they can’t afford to run more than two at once or replace them.’
    Yes, they are only building three supercarriers at present.

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  43. stephieboy (3,091 comments) says:

    Andrei, re article 1973 and the ” no fly zone” and its interpretation ? Not according to here,

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12782972

    What was Putin’s subsequent actions to try and revoke the resolution.?

    I find it outstanding that bit about he Lord’s blessing etc from someone who contributed to this,

    http://cpj.org/killed/europe/russia/

    Putin super hypocrite.!!

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  44. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Fascinating charts Cha. Let’s have another look in five years time. Personally I wish the USA would stay strong and get stronger but their very own dismal economic management has been their undoing.
    Obama- worst President ever.
    Ironically fracking may save them

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  45. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Oh, didn’t know that Mikey. Got a link? I thought the Ford class ones were delayed because of cost?

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  46. stephieboy (3,091 comments) says:

    All_on_Red

    Dismal economic management. ?? And your solutions to the worst economic crises since the great depression.??

    Ron Paul and other Libertarian fantasies .???

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  47. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Just checked on Wikipedia, Red, they seem to be on track

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  48. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Looks like there are two Mikey. I stand corrected but note funding is approved only to 2015 and they are reducing the Nimitz fleet-delivery is also delayed. edit- I prefer Janes to wiki :-)

    http://www.janes.com/article/35025/pentagon-budget-2015-us-navy-committed-to-ford-class-carriers

    The thing is I don’t think China wants or needs anything this big. They only need to project say a 2000 kms from China. Missiles will do that job.

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  49. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    yeah, it’s only the Yanks that will retain serious power-projection capability and that’s not gonna change anytime soon. We’re talking decades.

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  50. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Stephie
    Easy. They should never have gone for QE and adhered to Keynesian theory. Stimulate production not demand.
    As I said fracking is probably going to save them. We’ve discussed this elsewhere. As Andrei points out production of energy sources is changing Russia for the good..

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  51. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Mikey
    Putting a carrier within range of the Chinese airforce is a pretty risky move. Libya or Iran not so much.

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  52. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Not sure that’s the purpose of aircraft carriers, actually.

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  53. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    I’m listening
    Edit – have to go but interested and will re visit

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  54. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You wouldn’t have a carrier group and deploy it in a vulnerable situation when you have other capabilities, would you?

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  55. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    yeah, it’s only the Yanks that will retain serious power-projection capability and that’s not gonna change anytime soon. We’re talking decades.

    We are at a turning point in history Mikey – all that power can do is break things, destroy nations but it does not make the world a better or safer place.

    At this moment a genocide is taking place in the Dombas and a lot of that might is lined up against Russia, a threat, to try and intimidate Russia into not intervening to stop the carnage. I consider this wickedness and I’m not alone

    Putin on the other hand has prepared indictments against some of the perpetrators of this slaughter, maybe for the ICC, maybe he is going to take these people himself and put them before a court in Russia or Ukraine. I don’t know. The international arrest warrants have been issued to Interpol.

    Will Putin be drawn into playing like America or will he manage to use international norms to end this thus giving the USA another well deserved black eye and the bill for all this damage.

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  56. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘a genocide is taking place in the Dombas’
    I’d be interested to know which race is being exterminated there.
    Seriously, a turning point in history? Did Putin come out and say “we will bury you”?

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  57. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I see the Ukrainian rebels have decided to observe the government’s cease fire.

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  58. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    I see the Ukrainian rebels have decided to observe the government’s cease fire.

    But the Government haven’t.

    There not rebels btw they a patriots, Opolcheniye resisting a Quisling Government that has betrayed them.

    Very historical

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  59. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Exactly why China is going for small Carriers and Russia is getting two Helicopter carriers courtesy of France.
    So why have them?
    Seriously Usd $13 billion each and rising.
    Eventually someone’s going to call your bluff and you’re going to have to put them in harms way.

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  60. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Mikey
    “Not sure that’s the purpose of aircraft carriers, actually.”

    So what is it’s purpose?

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  61. cha (4,018 comments) says:

    So what is it’s purpose?

    To allow the US to take air power around the globe without giving a rats about who may or may not let them use bases and airspace.

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  62. ShawnLH (5,120 comments) says:

    “Let me try and wake you people up”

    The arrogance of that statement is astounding.

    Because we do not stupidly and mindlessly swallow Kremlin propaganda we are asleep?

    Spoken like a true Stalinist.

    Note that far left Yowza is on your side Andrie.

    “Conservative” my ass.

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  63. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    ShawnLH instead of spitting vitriol why not debate the issues I raised in the post that aroused your ire

    Show me where they are incorrect or inaccurate, in other words debate them, like an educated, civil adult would.

    I note you cannot spell my name and I’d almost guarantee you couldn’t pronounce it correctly.

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  64. ShawnLH (5,120 comments) says:

    “ShawnLH instead of spitting vitriol why not debate the issues I raised in the post that aroused your ire”

    You did not raise any issues, just repeated the usual pro-Kremlin drivel.

    The truth is the Russian people are weak cowards. Unable to rule themselves they need a strongman to tell them what to do. This has always been the case, but decades of communism and alcoholism have made things worst.

    Having committed the crime against humanity that was Godless Soviet communism, and desperately tried to export that evil around the world, but lost the cold war, the Russians, rather than wake up, have retreated into whining anti-Western conspiracy theories.

    And they have allowed a KGB tyrant to usurp power, shut down any real free press, and tell the Russians the lies they want to hear.

    It is time for Russia to be properly contained until it’s people can prove they are anything other than mindless, weak sheep. Sheep who are a danger to the rest of the world because they refuse to grow up and own their own evils and problems.

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  65. tom hunter (4,850 comments) says:

    Note that far left Yowza is on your side Andrie.

    “Conservative” my ass.

    I hate to tell you this Shawn but Andrei is every bit as religious as you and probably even more socially conservative. Russian Orthodox and all that.

    No, what has happened here is quite extraordinary. In just a few years Andrei has gone from being a fairly argumentative supporter on this blog of various actions of the USA – the invasion of Iraq in particular – to soundly exactly like Yoza in all his Zinnian glory. It’s as if “cha” or “mikenmild” suddenly started tub thumping for Ted Cruz.

    Given that there has been no explanation from Andrei – even to direct questions – as to the rationale for this incredible about-face, I’ve been left to conclude that it all comes down to sodomy, especially the wedded kind. Part of Putin’s anti-Western crusade has incorporated the countering of LBGT lifestyle as a way of promoting his own idea of traditional Russian society and also contrasting it with his Western opponents (soft, weak, unmanly, yada, yada, yada). Putin’s a smart cookie and he knows this appeals to elements in the West as much as the old KGB appeals to the “no-nukes” groups in the West did during the Cold War. Andrei is one of those whose fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

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  66. OneTrack (3,107 comments) says:

    Well the greens ideological homeload is Russia, circa 1917.

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  67. EAD (1,087 comments) says:

    Shorn – you’re anti-Putin diatribes are getting a bit tiresome mate.

    Putin is no angel but he has a lot of qualities that I admire especially when I compare him alongside other Western Leaders like Obummer, Cameron and that French Lizard.

    Why do I admire him – because he actually stands for something and is not giving into all the progressive shibboleth that is destroying the West. It’s all about the trend my friend – Russia is heading up as a country, most of the West is going down as they continue to spend money they haven’t got on things they don’t need.

    It is true he is hardly “democratically elected” but the truth is Universal enfranchisement is producing some pretty horrible results by letting the takers and idiots cast a vote equal to those people who actually generate the wealth as we continue the inevitable slide of debt and decay until we are bankrupt.

    “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” – H. L. Mencken

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  68. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Well, at least you and Andrei don’t bother to hide your animus towards democracy.

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  69. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Cha
    Ok, so China takes Taiwan. How do you think those carriers are going to get on so close to China?
    As I said previously that works against Iran or Libya but not China or Russia. They’d get hammered if they got within aircraft range and if they’re not within range they are pointless.

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  70. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    Well, at least you and Andrei don’t bother to hide your animus towards democracy.

    What democracy Mikey?

    When I go to the ballot box this year three of the candidates on my paper are going to get their place at the trough regardless of how I vote, where they will proceed to pass laws that I disagree with.

    That aint democracy my friend don’t kid yourself it is

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  71. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Much better to arrange things like they do in Russia or China eh? No need for tiresome voting.

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  72. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    They have elections in Russia Mikey and political parties

    Next elections are on September 14th that’s six days before we hold ours – they are elections for regional legislative assemblies and regional Governors

    You don’t know much about Russia do you?

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  73. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Oh yes, but we all know the outcome in advance.

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  74. Andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    A little birdie just told me they’ve cut the hot water in Kiev off – everybody except for the super rich will have to have cold showers from now on.

    This is what happens when you spend your utility money on making war on your own citizens at the behest of a foreign power that wants to use your land to me war on your erstwhile friendly neighbor (sister actually)

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  75. cha (4,018 comments) says:

    How do you think those carriers are going to get on so close to China?

    With mid-air refueling flying nonstop return from Missouri to Afghanistan to do the dirty doesn’t seem to be a problem so a carrier strike group would most likely stay out of harms way using similar methods.

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  76. tom hunter (4,850 comments) says:

    I may as well throw these two quotes together …

    Russia is heading up as a country, …

    One of the consequences of this is that the standard of living of ordinary Russians has risen dramatically over the past decade …

    One of the things about blog comments that annoys me is that one ends up repeating exactly the same counters to exactly the same points again:

    In a move some called unprecedented in Russian history, Economic Development Minister Aleksei Ulyukayev openly admitted that over the next fifteen years the Kremlin expects Russian economic growth to be over 25% less than the world average, with the result that by 2030 Russia’s share of the world economy will have declined by at least a stunning 15%, from 4% today to just 3.4% fifteen years from now.

    The stunned editors of the leading Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta stated in an editorial: “Neither the tzars, nor the Bolsheviks, nor the statists ever once told the population that their country did not have greater prospects.” It was jarring indeed to realize that things might be so bad that not even the Kremlin would take the chance of lying about them.

    In other words, the days of Vladimir Putin strutting about the world stage boasting of his economic achievements have come to an abrupt and ignominious end.

    and again:

    Things do not look much better on the spending side. Today, around 13% of Russia’s population is 65 or older. By 2050 that figure will rise to 23%. That means a whole lot of pension payments (and lower tax revenues as the working population shrinks). And an ageing society will be one that spends more on healthcare

    A healthcare problem exacerbated by an AIDS crisis right up with Africa’s. The Orthodox church has its work cut out for it.

    The oil price at which Russia can finance budgeted spending without borrowing has increased from just $34 a barrel in 2007 to above $100 for the years ahead.

    They’re going to need that fracking technology – and a little destabilisation of global oil supply would not go amiss either.

    Then there’s this:

    … most of the West is going down as they continue to spend money they haven’t got on things they don’t need.

    I stand before nobody in criticising the West for destructive spending and credit creation patterns, but as Adam Smith once said, there’s a lot of ruin in a country, and the fact is the West has a lot more capacity for ruin even than a rapidly ageing China, let alone a decrepit USSR Russia.

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  77. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Russell the Wimp was a leading figure in the Aus SUP.

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  78. ChardonnayGuy (1,207 comments) says:

    Er, that would be the same Putin’s Russia which arrested Greenpeace activists in the Arctic Sea and which has a large petrochemical industry, would it? ;)

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  79. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Cha
    So the carriers are useless then. Because you are talking about B1 capability not carrier based aircraft. And the Chinese can refuel too…
    Face it. The carriers are ineffective against as strong a foe as Russia and China.

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