Sallies say prohibition doesn’t work

June 3rd, 2014 at 3:00 pm by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

A New Zealander who has come home after heading the in Pakistan says prohibition never works, but more restrictions can reduce the harm from drugs and alcohol.

Commissioner Alistair Herring, 63, who returned from Pakistan in April to head the Salvation Army’s NZ addiction services, said Islam’s ban on alcohol did not stop Pakistanis suffering serious addiction problems.

“Muslims are not allowed to hold alcohol licences in Pakistan on the premise that Islam is against addictive substances,” he said. “What tends to happen in reality is that Muslims who want to drink will go to the Christian or non-Muslim community for their alcohol. I have talked to Muslim folk in Pakistan and they acknowledge that it is a problem. There is also a huge drug problem, of course.”

He said Salvationists vowed not to drink or smoke voluntarily “because of who we are and the services we provide”. But compulsion was “quite a different thing”.

“Prohibition is never going to work, has never worked,” he said.

Nice to hear the truth spoken. Of course the zealots are now trying to ban sugar. Their aim is for a sugar free pacific by 2025.

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90 Responses to “Sallies say prohibition doesn’t work”

  1. Huevon (220 comments) says:

    This makes me feel like a drink.

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  2. kowtow (8,324 comments) says:

    And Muslims who don’t want Muslims to drink go to the Christian communities too……bang bang chop chop.

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  3. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “There is also a huge drug problem, of course.”

    Compared to what?

    Has he ever been to California?

    The guy is an idiot.

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  4. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    The Sally:

    “Prohibition is never going to work, has never worked.”

    What about Singapore? It had a helluva drug problem once, but it will be less than NZ’s now.

    Does prohibition have to entail total elimination to be a success? What if it reduces the drug problem 70 or 80 per cent?

    How are the Sallies doing in Singapore? Most of their work will be for foreign “guest workers” from Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines, I expect.

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  5. JMS (319 comments) says:

    What about Singapore? It had a helluva drug problem once, but it will be less than NZ’s now.

    Singapore is a tiny city state with a traditionally obedient population.

    Not a realistic comparison to NZ.

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  6. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/9740698/Sugar-like-alcohol-for-children

    Yep it’s true- The food nazis want a ‘Sugar Free’ Aotearoa within the next twenty years….

    So we will all be living off Lentils, Mungbeans and Carrot Juice (Unsweetened of course)…Can’t wait!
    Party Vote Green!!

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  7. kowtow (8,324 comments) says:

    The Nats are going along with a tobacco free Aotearoa by 2025.Starting with plain packaging. Private property is no longer private.

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  8. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    There’s an excellent series on Sky about prohibition in the US.. Everyone knows it was a failure, but this series shows just how much of a failure…interestingly the line the programme takes is that it could have worked if the “Drys” hadn’t been so utterly inflexible…If for example they had dropped or muted their opposition to beer and wine, and concentrated on hard liquor..

    (I am aware one can still become alcoholic on either of those two beverages)

    The series makes a very good case for prohibition having been much much worse than the undoubted problem is was intended to cure – rampant alcoholism and alcohol fuelled family violence..

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  9. Bob (496 comments) says:

    I don’t believe in bans. I prefer education which takes time. It is slowly working with tobacco. With food, producers can be required to reduce sugar levels where possible. If you talk to Asians you find they eat little sugar. They use spices and the like to add taste to their dishes. There isn’t much obesity among Asians.

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  10. burt (8,239 comments) says:

    With food, producers can be required to reduce sugar levels where possible.

    Yes, how dare they think they can make products and sell them without consulting the government on what the ingredients are allowed to be !

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  11. OneTrack (3,024 comments) says:

    burt – We need Russel and Metiria to sign off on what every company in Aotearoa is allowed to sell. Think of the children.

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  12. Bob (496 comments) says:

    You wouldn’t say that if you had a relative having his or her legs amputated because of gangrene caused by diabetes related to sugar intake. Equally you wouldn’t uphold tobacco use if you saw a heavy smoking lung cancer victim lying on a bed convulsing.

    I have been surprised at the amount of sugar in things I eat such as 6 spoons of sugar in a pottle of chocolate dairy snack. The thing is even if you try to reduce your sugar intake you might be eating a lot more than you think because manufacturers are lacing their products with excessive sugar to enhance the taste.

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  13. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “Not a realistic comparison to NZ.”

    So NZers are drug soaked idiots?

    Harsh judgment.

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  14. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    You don’t have to deny that something is a problem in order to deny that Government regulation is the best solution.

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  15. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    JMS posted at 3.17

    Singapore is a tiny city state with a traditionally obedient population.
    Not a realistic comparison to NZ.

    The facts:

    Population:
    Singapore – 5.6 million New Zealand – 4.4 million

    Dominant population:
    Singapore 74.2 per cent Chinese New Zealand 71.2 per cent European

    GDP:
    Singapore – USD339 billon New Zealand – USD 136 billion

    GDP per head:
    Singapore – USD62,400 New Zealand – USD 30,400

    Traditionally obedient? Where the hell were you when our guys were fighting the Malayan Chinese in the jungle? (Singapore was then part of Malaya.)

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  16. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “The series makes a very good case”

    Yes Dave, mainstream media and or Hollywood.

    Always an excellent source of information on which to base your judgments.

    FFS…!!

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  17. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “Where the hell were you when our guys were fighting the Malayan Chinese in the jungle?”

    He’s a clueless idiot who can’t even put a working url on his nick.

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  18. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Perhaps you might like to see it first Red? Back before photoshop the camera didn’t lie…shots of “rum row” – freighters loaded with booze anchored just outside the three mile limit tell more of the story than the narration..

    But I am confused Red… are you a fan of prohibition then?? (Now don’t be a silly old pensioner and come back with some silly reply to the effect that you already know I am confused…)

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  19. ross411 (775 comments) says:

    Bob (456 comments) says:
    June 3rd, 2014 at 4:11 pm
    You wouldn’t say that if you had a relative having his or her legs amputated because of gangrene caused by diabetes related to sugar intake. Equally you wouldn’t uphold tobacco use if you saw a heavy smoking lung cancer victim lying on a bed convulsing.

    In other words, people you know chose to eat sugar or smoke and are suffering the consequences of their choices, and we need to change our lives in some way to make you feel better. Never mind that we may be helping to pay for their care, and their decisions, through public health care and our taxes.

    I’m sorry about your relative and cancer suffering friend, but I do not see how it is related to anything, except as leverage to make the rest of us penitent so you might feel like you’ve accomplished something.

    People should know by now, and shouldn’t need education. Ignorance at some point, is a choice.

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  20. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Reddy would only be a fan of prohibition if it were a policy in place in Singapore. And didn’t you know, David, that everything on TV has been produced by cowardly lying leftists?

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  21. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    DG: Fight Redbaiter as much as you like, but don’t be ageist!

    We’re all getting on around this blog. Bugger all teenagers post on Kiwiblog.

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  22. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    From a previous thread-

    Tell you what to all the useful idiots who think legalising drugs is what NZ needs so badly to do, I’ll make a deal with you.

    Lets get rid of govt that takes $80 billion dollars out of our pockets annually.

    Lets stop govt spending billions we don’t have supporting a derelict welfare state.

    Let’s stop destroying our traditional culture and replacing it with an uncivil minefield of crime and violence.

    Lets wipe 75% of our laws from the statute books.

    Lets reduce the size of our parliament by at least 60%.

    Let’s restore the civil society that existed before Marxists and Progressives became socially ascendant.

    Lets reduce taxes and bureaucracy to one tenth of what they are now.

    If after we’ve done all that, and you’re still sweating on drug legalisation, then I won’t stand in your pissant way.

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  23. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “DG: Fight Redbaiter as much as you like, but don’t be ageist!”

    Its just a typical left wing strawman strategy. He doesn’t have a clue but it doesn’t stop him.

    Anyone with a skerrick of self respect would hesitate to spread lies, but its never worried Progressives.

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  24. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “I am also skeptical about officials claims that there are no drug problems in Singapore.”

    What claims are those?

    The argument is-

    “Can the war against illegal drugs be won?”

    Singapore proves that with the benefit of a civil population who possess the necessary conviction, yes, it can be won.

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  25. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    Georgebolwing (4.27 posted – then this seems to have disappeared):

    Singapore is also a small island, with one airport and two bridges connecting it to the rest of the world, but admittedly with a large port.

    But what a port! The world’s second biggest container port (Shanghai is the biggest), and the world’s thirteenth busiest airport. Auckland isn’t one of the world’s 30 busiest airports. Sydney is 28th busiest.

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  26. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    But Red…just try and follow this…

    I said I saw an excellent doco series about the failures of prohibition in the US..

    YOU reply with a sneering reference to MSM made programmes and Hollywood…

    I then said there was fascinating footage of freighters full of booze along “rum row”, just on the three miles limit

    Surely then you are saying you DONT agree that prohibition was a failure?? Confused, much…

    You’re a hard man to follow, and no mistake…Please be patient and explain your position on prohibition…Just in your own time…

    Secondly Russell old son….do you realise just how silly you make yourself sound when you call ME a “progressive”? I think I must hold some sort of record of complaints to the Speaker by the filthy Socialists during my short time…Was it all a feint do you think? I was really on their side all the time??

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  27. georgebolwing (795 comments) says:

    As we have discussed many times before on this blog:

    a) taking drugs can be bad for you;
    b) eating some amounts of some things can be bad for you;
    c) doing some things can be bad for you;
    d) none of this is any reason why the Government should pass and enforce laws stopping people doing things that are bad for them.
    e) human history has shown us that except in a very few cases, usually accompanied by other much worse violations of human rights, laws against pleasurable self-harm are unlikely to reduce the incidence of self-harm and are must more likely to result in worse problems than the thing they were trying to stop.

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  28. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “d) none of this is any reason why the Government should pass and enforce laws stopping people doing things that are bad for them.”

    Good grief.. how can supposedly educated and intelligent human beings be capable of writing something so clueless.

    Let’s throw out all laws relating to murder, theft, rape etc.

    Govts have a duty to the civilised societies they represent to forestall acts that would undermine the stability and effectiveness of that society.

    Singapore society functions with far more liberty than NZ because it has resisted all invasions by Marxist social habits that subtly and gradually undermine freedom.

    Whilst NZ has not, and we therefore have a derelict crime ridden and slowly but surely degenerating society to show for it, where freedom is reduced more and more every day.

    You can thank George and other progressives for that state of affairs.

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  29. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Crikey Red…you are all over the shop! Are you in favour of prohibition or not?! That’s a plain enough question, surely??

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  30. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    And yet New Zealand ranks so highly on international comparisons of freedom.

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  31. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “I think I must hold some sort of record of complaints to the Speaker by the filthy Socialists during my short time”

    You need to educate yourself on the difference between a socialist and a progressive. They’re far from the same. That you apparently think they are suggests a startling degree of political ignorance.

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  32. gump (1,635 comments) says:

    @David Garrett

    “But I am confused Red… are you a fan of prohibition then?? ”

    ———————-

    Redbaiter is well known to be a fan of totalitarian government.

    Ban this, ban that, freedom is slavery etc etc.

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  33. gump (1,635 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter

    “Govts have a duty to the civilised societies they represent to forestall acts that would undermine the stability and effectiveness of that society.”

    ———————–

    And there it is. Redbaiter writes the blank cheque for a government to repress its citizens.

    Tell me Redbaiter. Does your vision of the future involve black leather jackboots? Or are they brown?

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  34. georgebolwing (795 comments) says:

    Red, on you list of things:

    Lets get rid of govt that takes $80 billion dollars out of our pockets annually. Sure. A good classically liberal thing to do.

    Lets stop govt spending billions we don’t have supporting a derelict welfare state. Ditto.

    Let’s stop destroying our traditional culture and replacing it with an uncivil minefield of crime and violence. By “traditional culture”, I take you mean British. But i’m not British (although most of my ancestors were)

    Lets wipe 75% of our laws from the statute books. Agreed, but which ones? I’d start with all the ones that impose a required standard of behaviour. the Misuse of Drugs Act would be first on my list.

    Lets reduce the size of our parliament by at least 60%. I agree. Advances in technology should make it a lot easier for a reduced number of MP to govern effectively.

    Let’s restore the civil society that existed before Marxists and Progressives became socially ascendant. By which i take it you mean the male dominated British culture of New Zealand in the 1930s. no thanks. I want to behave however i like, not how you want me to.

    Lets reduce taxes and bureaucracy to one tenth of what they are now. By “bureaucracy”, I take it you mean government spending. In New Zealand, the vast bulk of Government spending is on health, education and NZ Superannuation. Superannuation alone is $11 billion. One tenth might be theoretically nice, if you believe in an absolutely minimalist state, but even Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson would balk at that.

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  35. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “And yet New Zealand ranks so highly on international comparisons of freedom.”

    What date does Tax Freedom Day arrive on in Singapore as compared to NZ Milky?

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  36. beautox (420 comments) says:

    There’s a rather unsubtle difference between drug-taking and murder, theft, etc.

    Murder, theft and most crime is not “bad for you”. It’s bad for your victim. That is why it’s legislated against. Theft is usually really good for you – you get free stuff.

    As for your claims that Singapore is a bastion of liberty…haha. Ever been there Red? Know that you can be publicly caned for not flushing your own toilet. And that chewing gum is illegal. How about $1000 fine for littering? Like a bit of porn? Forget it.

    Now you may think that these are all worthy laws. But hardly the land of the free that you make out. But I have to agree with the other commenters that consistency isn’t one of your strong points.

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  37. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    Gump, go away you tiresome small minded bore.

    You have no arguments of your own and merely misrepresent the arguments of others and then demand they defend them.

    Infantile troll.

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  38. georgebolwing (795 comments) says:

    Red. Read very carefully. One word at a time. I said “laws stopping people doing things that are bad for THEM”.

    Murder, theft, rape are all laws stopping people doing things that are BAD FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

    Consenting adults, in private, should be allowed to do what they want to themselves and other consenting adults. Sex, drugs, rock and roll.

    And I don’t think this is a marxist position. It’s classical liberalism. I’m sure Marx would have called it bourgeois.

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  39. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    Red. Read very carefully. One word at a time. I said “laws stopping people doing things that are bad for THEM”.

    Murder, theft, rape are all laws stopping people doing things that are BAD FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

    Consenting adults, in private, should be allowed to do what they want to themselves and other consenting adults. Sex, drugs, rock and roll.

    And I don’t think this is a marxist position. It’s classical liberalism. I’m sure Marx would have called it bourgeois.

    “The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.” – JS Mill, On Liberty

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  40. gump (1,635 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter

    “What date does Tax Freedom Day arrive on in Singapore as compared to NZ Milky?”

    ———————–

    Fun fact:

    If five or more Singaporean citizens want to gather in public to celebrate Tax Freedom Day then they must first obtain a written permit from the Government. Otherwise they have convened an illegal public gathering.

    PUBLIC ORDER ACT, (CHAPTER 257A)

    Redbaiter – you can verify this yourself if you don’t believe me. Here is a link to the legislation (which I know you won’t actually read).

    http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/aol/search/display/view.w3p;page=0;query=CompId%3A6d5f7700-db03-4ac4-bb17-047072aa7116;rec=0

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  41. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    Why didn’t you answer the question Gump?

    I’ll tell you.

    You know that if you did you would be acknowledging the truth you deny- that NZers today are far more enslaved than what Singaporeans will ever be.

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  42. unaha-closp (1,158 comments) says:

    Some other countries with zero tolerance drug policies:

    North Korea
    East Germany
    USSR
    Belarus

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  43. Nukuleka (308 comments) says:

    No doubt the Kiwiblog druggies will be jumping onto this silly Sallie Army man’s bandwagon about alcohol prohibition and begin enthusing about the foolishness of the ‘prohibition’ of drugs.

    What gets me about the enthusiasm that the lefties (and the drug liberals) have for the bits of Sally Army propaganda they like is that they ignore the fact that the Sallies were behind the biggest petition ever seen in NZ when they campaigned against homosexual law reform. Remember that campaign against the legalising of homosexuality? Those Sallies really knew a thing or two about PROHIBITION back then. They wanted to PROHIBIT the practice of homosexuality.

    But I thought that this Alister Herring man is now saying that PROHIBITION NEVER WORKS. Oh dear, I’m a simple soul and I do find it hard keeping up with all this Sallie Army chopping and changing.

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  44. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Ryan: Thanks for that quote from JS Mill ( I am not being sarcastic; that quote encapsulates why those – including some ACT members – who say 3S is inconsistent with classical Liberalism are totally wrong)…ACT’s constitution also says “the first duty of the state is to ensure the safety of its citizens”

    Red…(Why do I think I am going to regret this?) Please explain the difference between a Progressive and a Socialist…you are quite right, I DID think they were one and the same…but then despite my degree in Political Science, I didn’t know that “progressive” was a synonym for “Hard left wing” until I went to parliament…

    Please be nice and explain…

    Nukuleka: Are you sure that’s right about the Sallies and homos? I dimly recall the petition with hundreds of thousands of signatures against homo law reform in ’86, but I don’t recall the Sallies’ involvement… ( Use “homo” in a caring and sharing way of course, and only in the interests of brevity…)

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  45. ChardonnayGuy (1,199 comments) says:

    David, surely promoting sound preventative, primary health policies like reduced sugar intake is the fiscally responsible thing to do. For one thing, it saves secondary health expenditure on heart meds, hospital bed occupancy, staff renumeration, wear and tear on surgical equipment and general deterioration of public healthcare assets.

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  46. dad4justice (8,137 comments) says:

    Ban sugar, ban cigs but let the fags spread Aids?

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  47. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Chardonnay: I think you make a good point….but at some point people need to start taking responsibility for what they do to themselves…For example, it is already the case that surgeons will sometimes refuse to operate on a person unless he or she loses X amount of weight, or stops smoking…I would be in favour of extending that so that – say – smokers who failed to stop the habit within X amount of time would not be eligible for free hospital treatment of their eventual emphysema; drunk drivers who injure themselves would automatically go to the bottom of the queue in A & E, regardless of their injuries

    If we start regulating sugar or fats or salt in foods, where does that end? Everyone required to only eat “Kiwifood” approved by the Ministry of Health? (I am not normally a big fan of the “slippery slope” argument, but I do think it is valid re this issue)

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  48. gump (1,635 comments) says:

    @David Garrett

    “ACT’s constitution also says “the first duty of the state is to ensure the safety of its citizens””

    ———————–

    Is that really in the ACT constitution? Because that’s basically a blank cheque for Government intervention into the lives of its citizens i.e. nanny statism.

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  49. ross411 (775 comments) says:

    dad4justice (7,459 comments) says:
    June 3rd, 2014 at 5:34 pm
    Ban sugar, ban cigs but let the fags spread Aids?

    Yes, yes, you want attention and are too lazy to come up with something less obviously the work of a troll.

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  50. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    And on the subject of banning, how is this “Smokefree NZ” going to work?? For at least the next generation and probably beyond, there will be hard core of people who want to smoke tobacco…is it going to be an offence to possess or grow it, just like cannabis? That’s bound to work well…

    gump: yes, that is in ACT’s constitution…I can see your point – make cigarettes illegal because they cause serious harm etc. – but the intention at least is to allow for laws that prevent you beating the shit out of your neighbour…

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  51. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    Let’s see:

    Alcohol & tobacco okay….ban marijuana
    Ban homosexual acts…..unless between clergy & minors.

    The freedom loving “ban everything that I don’t agree with” mob are outdoing themselves today.

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  52. dad4justice (8,137 comments) says:

    ross411 – So I gather from your comment you are happy for fags to spread aids. Many on here argue lifestyle choices should determine whether they get treated in the public health system? I am confused?

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  53. Nukuleka (308 comments) says:

    David Garrett:

    The Salvation Army has been backpeddling about its involvement in the anti Homosexual Law Reform Petition for years. Although it did not specifically initiate the petition its leaders threw their collective weight behind it at the time and the Salvation Army was at the forefront of gathering signatures. In many people’s eyes the petition continues to be associated with the Salvation Army. I have friends who continue not to give support to Salvation Army appeals for that very reason.

    Incidentally, like 800,000 other people, I signed that petition. I have no regrets about having done that.

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  54. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    Thank for the info Nukuleka…..that leaves only 799,999 people who can’t keep their noses out of other people’s businesses & think that their religious belief allows them to dictate everyone else’s morals to identify themselves.

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  55. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Nuku: thanks…now that I think about it, I think I do dimly remember black clad figures among those presenting the 800,000 signature petition…My views on homos have changed over the years…I now accept that they are born and not made…or at least male homos are…it seems to be a bit more subject to change among women…

    But I remain of the view that presenting homo lifestyle to kids as something to almost be encouraged is quite wrong…and incidentally the Godfather of my children – a very “out” homo – shares my view…He also says that by definition it is “abnormal” (deviating from the norm)..

    But let’s not get sidetracked on that…there is little doubt that booze causes a great many more problems than proselytising homos…

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  56. Odakyu-sen (600 comments) says:

    “ACT’s constitution also says “the first duty of the state is to ensure the safety of its citizens”

    This is such a hard statement to interpret.

    Does it mean that the state should act to ensure the safety of its citizens in the present? Or that it should act to ensure the safety of its citizens in the future?

    These are two totally different interpretations. I put it to you that if the state shall ensure the safety of its citizens in the present, then we have the Nanny State. If, on the other hand, the state shall ensure the safety of its citizens in the future, then the state shall let nature take its course. The smart and prudent shall survive; the stupid shall perish, and we shall have a safer self-regulating society.

    This view is based on the notion of causing harm to society by protecting people from folly (resulting in a nation of fools).

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  57. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    For David Garret- “What’s the difference between a socialist and a Progressive?

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=difference+between+socialist+and+progressive

    Is your Mummy still dressing you Dave?

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  58. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    How notable that all of the progs on here professing a care for liberty have not been able to answer my question re tax freedom day in Singapore.

    Why not?

    Because it exposes them for the hoaxers and frauds they all are. Like phony snake oil salesmen, preaching their empty mantras of tolerance and collectivism, whilst all the time building the most oppressive govt this country has ever experienced.

    In the last fifty odd years when the Progs have enjoyed social and political ascendancy we’ve had more laws and regulations passed than in the whole of NZ’s past history. Our govt is the biggest its ever been and out tax burden is the greatest its ever been.

    Meanwhile our society degenerates into a drug soaked alcohol sodden crime ridden basket case, and all of these “Progressives” pat each other on the back in their delusional belief that they have somehow brought us liberty.

    Knuckle dragging Neanderthals all of them without the modicum of perception needed to see how they have thrown everything good out and replaced it with a chaotic narcissistic disaster.

    My father tells me that in 1950 he could ride his motorcycle down the main street of any town in NZ helmetless and with a rifle slung across his back.

    Don’t talk to me about liberty you arrogant damn fools, you don’t have a clue.

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  59. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    TFD in Singapore is about the 4th March Baity. But about this liberty racket….what possible liberties would be afforded in your Nirvana?

    Edit: other than getting your rocks off riding down the main street, armed to the teeth without a helmet.

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  60. big bruv (13,727 comments) says:

    ” whilst all the time building the most oppressive govt this country has ever experienced.”

    Yet in the same post we see Bedwetter praise the Government of Singapore who are without doubt oppressive and dictatorial.

    This does not matter to Bedwetter of course because he agrees with the Government of Singapore, the hypocrisy is breath taking.

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  61. big bruv (13,727 comments) says:

    “How notable that all of the progs on here professing a care for liberty have not been able to answer my question”

    Speaking of questions, any chance you might answer the same ones I have been asking you for months?

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  62. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    As the Progs have dragged down NZ, so they have done the same thing right across the west. Knuckle dragging goons have brought their degeneration to UK and US too. Here’s a tweet that typifies the situation-

    “@unami22 I’m just glad that my WWII veteran grandfather (ex RAF fighter pilot) is no longer alive to see what is happening in the UK”

    (FO Bruv, you and you’re pathetic strawmen arguments.

    Just a trolling child.)

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  63. big bruv (13,727 comments) says:

    Still cant answer the questions then Bedwetter? I guess at your age memory loss is the norm.

    Don’t worry about it though because I will keep asking the same questions in the hope that you might one day decided to answer them or to admit that you are nothing more than a blowhard.

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  64. big bruv (13,727 comments) says:

    I do wonder why D4J keeps bringing up the subject of homosexuality?

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  65. Jack5 (5,053 comments) says:

    David Garrett posted at 5.38:

    … at some point people need to start taking responsibility for what they do to themselves…For example, it is already the case that surgeons will sometimes refuse to operate on a person unless he or she loses X amount of weight, or stops smoking…

    An interesting point, DG.

    Cannabis can trigger schizophrenia in some people. How would you deny treatment to a schizophrenic, perhaps no longer able to tell right from wrong? “If you smoked cannabis you are on your own – sleep under a bridge…”

    Would surgeons refuse to operate on people who are smoking cannabis? It’s bound to stuff up your lungs.

    Your argument might also end the methadone programme. “Take responsibility for yourself – don’t come whingeing to us for free methadone.”

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  66. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    “TFD in Singapore is about the 4th March Baity.”

    Well, that’s fine Narsekissa, but when some deranged idiot professes to care for liberty but also makes the statement below, how is it ever going to be possible to discuss the issue rationally with him?

    “The entire electorate has shifted many points to the Left over the past two decades & fortunately National have adapted & moved with it. “

    Utterly clueless.

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  67. georgebolwing (795 comments) says:

    Things you could do in New Zealand in 1950:

    ride a motorcycle down the main street of any town in NZ helmetless with a rifle slung across your back.

    Things you couldn’t do in New Zealand in 1950:

    buy margarine without a prescription from a doctor
    buy a beer in a pub at 7.00 pm
    buy anything, other than the narrow stocks in dairies, between 5.00 pm on a Friday and 9.00 am Monday
    import lego
    travel anywhere in the world with more than the prescribed amount of spending money;
    engage in homosexual acts, in private, with a willing partner
    buy stamps at a dairy
    listen to a privately owned radio station
    I could go on.

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  68. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    ..and today the party that so many of you regard as the better choice is about to introduce one of the most vicious and tyrannical attacks on freedom of expression we’ve yet seen in this country, namely The Harmful Digital Communications Bill!

    Trade off worth it was it George?

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  69. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Nice comeback Reddy. You just refuse to engage with George’s argument that NZ is incomparably freer than it was 65 years ago.

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  70. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    The quote referred to the superior management skills of National Baity. The political scene in NZ & most of the first world is fluid & for better or for worse it is moving Left, or Liberal or Progressive.

    Only in the LaLa land of religio conservatism is the reality of refinement & evolution met by denial, then horror. King Canute demonstrated that turning a tide is tough going…..what makes you think that you & your little band of crazies will fare better?

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  71. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    Talking of engaging Milky, when’s Tax Freedom Day in NZ?

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  72. Odakyu-sen (600 comments) says:

    I think Red is talking about the freedom of a law-abiding citizen to decide for themselves what is dangerous and what is not, and to take responsibility for managing those risks; whereas George is concerned more with consumptive/money spending freedom.

    Both are freedoms, but very different freedoms. Red’s examples are ones in which the individual is free to control themselves and bear personal responsibility for their actions; George’s are where the individual is not restricted in their ability buy stuff.

    Which freedom is more important to you?

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  73. big bruv (13,727 comments) says:

    “Red’s examples are ones in which the individual is free to control themselves and bear personal responsibility for their actions”

    Clearly he is not, anybody who is a brown nosing supporter of the Singaporean regime cannot also be a supporter of freedom.

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  74. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    Odakyu-sen

    The consumptive/spending freedom you instanced is personal & effects no one else. The freedom of action & the responsibility of outcome can impinge on other’s freedoms…..that is the genesis of most social control laws.

    Baity & I are at polar opposites on most things yet even he agrees in social control.

    We disagree on what should be controlled & how.

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  75. Odakyu-sen (600 comments) says:

    Good point, nasska.

    Freedom of action. I would prefer a system where the individual has freedom of action; however, what safeguards should the state have in place, lest the individual screws up badly and starts hurting others?

    That’s the thing: what should be controlled & how.

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  76. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    List of top international rankings by country

    NZ

    Least corrupt country according to Transparency International (tied with Denmark)

    Best performance at Women’s Rugby World Cups, 3 times winner (1998, 2002, 2006)

    Best performance at Women’s Rugby League World Cups, 3 times winner (2000, 2005, 2008)

    “Best performance at Men’s Rugby Union World Cups””, 2 times winner (1987, 2011)

    Best performance in Men’s Rugby 7s World Series

    Singapore

    Lowest infant mortality rate, 2.31 deaths per 1000

    Most economic freedom according to Index of Economic Freedom, 87.1 points

    Most trade freedom according to Global Enabling Trade Report, 5.71 points

    Easiest business doing according to Ease of Doing Business Index

    Highest gross fixed investment as percentage of GDP, 45.00%

    Most exports per capita, $49,100 per person

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top_international_rankings_by_country

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  77. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    2014 index of economic freedom

    1 Hong Kong

    2 Singapore

    3 Australia

    4 Switzerland

    5 New Zealand

    http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

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  78. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    Ryan: Thanks for that quote from JS Mill ( I am not being sarcastic; that quote encapsulates why those – including some ACT members – who say 3S is inconsistent with classical Liberalism are totally wrong)…ACT’s constitution also says “the first duty of the state is to ensure the safety of its citizens”

    It’s a good quote, from a good book.

    I can see how 3S would be consistent with the application of that principle.

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  79. gump (1,635 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter

    Q. Do you know what Singapore is also famous for?

    A. It has the lowest fertility rate in the world.

    Why do you think that is? You keep telling us that nations who fail to breed will cease to exist. If I remember correctly, you blame “progressive” policies for NZ’s falling birth rates.

    So why are people choosing not to breed in your so-called utopia? Is Singapore a hotbed of progressive thought?

    Your arguments are amusingly easily to disprove.

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  80. gump (1,635 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter

    Best performance at Women’s Rugby World Cups, 3 times winner (1998, 2002, 2006)

    WRONG! They’ve won it four times. You forgot 2010.

    “Best performance at Men’s Rugby Union World Cups””, 2 times winner (1987, 2011)

    WRONG! New Zealand is one of three countries that have won the RWC twice. The other countries are Australia and South Africa.

    Best performance in Men’s Rugby 7s World Series

    WRONG! Both New Zealand and Fiji have won the men’s 7s World Cup twice.

    —————

    You can’t even get basic facts correct.

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  81. georgebolwing (795 comments) says:

    You see, what I just can’t except is statements like ” the party that so many of you regard as the better choice is about to introduce one of the most vicious and tyrannical attacks on freedom of expression we’ve yet seen in this country, namely The Harmful Digital Communications Bill!”

    To a large extent, the Bill seems to, in effect, add the words “and via the internet” to the current statute and common law of New Zealand, in manner that is consistent with New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990. If I erected a defamatory billboard, then the Courts of New Zealand can, under current law, fine and imprison me if I refuse to take it down.

    Things the Harmful Digital Communications Bill doesn’t seem to do include;

    a) suspend habeas corpus
    b) reimpose the death penalty
    c) allow internment without trial
    d) reintroduce bills of attainder
    e) sanction warrantless searches

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  82. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    georgebolwing

    I could go on

    Please by all means add some more . . . it’s interesting (I’m not being funny mate).

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  83. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    The sallies don’t drink or smoke. ‘Voluntarily’. Yeah yeah, ok. Weirdo wowsers.

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  84. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    Here’s a link for Russell

    Lawyer and former MP . . .

    The man is clearly an idiot to be insulted and abused just like everyone else here. Well done.

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  85. G152 (305 comments) says:

    The salvation army has the best brass bans.
    Let sister Anna carry the banner

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  86. georgebolwing (795 comments) says:

    Odakyu-sen:

    I think the difference between Red’s ideal state and mind is that Red has a set of behaviours that he regards as appropriate and that individuals should have the right to undertake those (and only those) without government interference, while in my view, everyone should have the right to do whatever they want, provided they don’t harm others. Thus, red thinks that people should be able to ride a motorcycle down the main street of any town in NZ helmetless with a rifle slung across your back, but he doesn’t seem to think that people can take illicit drugs in their own home or enter into a same-sex relationship with state support or engage in homosexual sex with a willing partner. But I think all of these activities should be freely available to everyone, again, provided they don’t harm others.

    Certainly, I think that free markets are a really good way of allocating resources, but I also think that personal freedoms are important. In fact, I am favour both both social and economic liberty.

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  87. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    I think the easily manipulated George Bolwing’s preoccupation with fashionable Marxist crap & thinking such issues are at the core of liberty demonstrate such a convoluted and ineffective approach that it shows exactly why the tyrants and totalitarians have so easily outflanked us.

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  88. ChardonnayGuy (1,199 comments) says:

    I think the whole situation here is being misrepresented. We are talking about voluntary behavioural compliance with prudent general suggested conduct guidelines. We are not talking about vintage Stalinism. For instance, I choose not to drink alcohol. As a person with Type 2 diabetes, it is in my interests not to consume too much sugar, sodium or processed meat. And I applaud Coke for expanding its zero sugar product line, which now comprises thirty percent of its market share.

    Hell, it’s hilarious watching authoritarian social conservative statists crying ‘individual liberty’ when it comes to health promotion and then turning around and defending Stalinist and neofascist statist bans against sex work, abortion rights and homosexuality, though. Pot? Kettle?

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  89. Redbaiter (8,551 comments) says:

    People who identify primarily by their sexual orientation are at best narcissists or at worst far more seriously mentally disturbed.

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  90. Ryan Sproull (7,101 comments) says:

    People who identify primarily by their sexual orientation are at best narcissists or at worst far more seriously mentally disturbed.

    People who identify primarily by their sexual orientation generally live in societies that overwhelmingly define them by their sexual orientation.

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