Again, time to sack the Police

July 3rd, 2014 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

NewstalkZB reports:

The Electoral Commission is saying nothing about apparent inaction on breaches of the .

 Information provided by the Commission reveals that since the beginning of 2011 there have been 113 breaches of the Electoral Act that it’s referred to police for investigation.

Not one has resulted in a prosecution.

The Electoral Commission has declined to be interviewed about the matter.

The agency says what happens once it makes referrals, is a matter for police.

I’ve been going on about this since 2006. The Police failed to prosecute in 2005, 2008 and 2011. Three strikes and you’re out. Their non enforcement of electoral law, seriously undermines our electoral system. It’s time for another agency to be given the job.

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62 Responses to “Again, time to sack the Police”

  1. Linda Reid (396 comments) says:

    I agree – the police have not acted and if there is no enforcement, then the relatively small amount of corruption will just keep growing. Our electoral laws MUST be enforced.

    Come on National – introduce law RIGHT NOW to sort this out and put all parties and candidates on notice that all breaches of our electoral laws will be prosecuted this year.

    Let’s have a clean, honest campaign.

    ALSO anyone caught defacing hoardings and sign must be made to pay for replacements.

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  2. wreck1080 (3,725 comments) says:

    I don’t see a new agency is required.

    The police minister should be given a bollocking and told to sort it out.

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  3. Dave Mann (1,168 comments) says:

    No, it’s not time to give another agency the job. It’s time to hold a comprehensive enquiry into WHY the police are failing to do their bloody job and uphold the law.

    Heads need to roll in this matter and it’s not good enough to just shrug off their failure to investigate electoral fraud. NZ is meant to be a democracy, FFS, and upholding the rule of law is the police’s job.

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  4. Redbaiter (7,522 comments) says:

    Or its time to strip the electoral process of laws that are costly and difficult to prosecute and designed to give the left what they claim is a “level playing field”.

    The laws regarding elections are far too restrictive and difficult to comply with and are a restriction on free speech. They should never have been passed.

    Nor should there be govt funding of political parties.

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  5. fernglas (99 comments) says:

    Give it to the SFO. Police allocation of their dwindling resources means that this type of fraud/corruption will always be given a low priority. Or else perhaps they could take resources away from frontline policing to put into working out which politicians failed to declare a freebie from McDonalds. You get the policing you pay for.

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  6. MH (624 comments) says:

    the Electorial Police Corps should be given special peaked hats and shiny jodhpurs and be able to enter Parliament without challenge from the Speaker and remove recalcitrant and habitual offenders.

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  7. JC (906 comments) says:

    It might be time to sack the police, but not before we find out why there hasn’t been a single prosecution and whether its the police who are corrupt, the various ministers of police or Parliament.

    I’d have to suggest that a perfect negative score indicates cross party corruption.

    JC

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  8. Redbaiter (7,522 comments) says:

    Just think for a minute how idiotic it is that Cunliffe could have been prosecuted for sending a tweet when he was not allowed to tweet.

    Does free speech really exist, or does it only exist when the govt says it exists? Why can’t we say within a day of election what we could say the day before? Just tyrannical BS that should not exist.

    Why are we not permitted to say something because we have “used up our allotted expenditure”? More bloody bullshit dreamed up by idiot politicians trying to regulate their way to power.

    It is the electoral law itself that seriously undermines democracy, rather than lack of enforcement.

    And why should working NZers trying to raise their families be forced to contribute money to electoral parties? The $35000 given to the joke Civilian Party is proof of what a rort that is. Little prog twit Ben Uffindel might think its funny but I don’t.

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  9. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    To me this is no surprise at all. The police like to fine people, because without those fines, how will they pay there bills? So yes, if it is an emergency they’ll do something. But with anything else your playing Russian Roulette. In the 90s they put a user fee on everything. With the police they created speed cameras, to help fund the police department. Oh, and whenever you see police its actually POLICE. A corporation is required to have there name in 100% capital letters.

    I’d like to see us completely get rid of the police, and have a new agency, which isn’t so interested in fining people, as in prosecuting people and locking up those who deserve it. It should be paid out of general taxation.

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  10. mikenmild (10,618 comments) says:

    ‘A corporation is required to have there name in 100% capital letters’
    Weirdo alert.

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  11. Chris2 (754 comments) says:

    Without excusing the Police, the Electoral Commission is equally culpable too.

    It’s CEO, Robert Peden, is a career Public Servant lawyer who has been on the taxpayer tit for the last 26 years, and CEO at the Electoral Commission for the last nine years. What is this clown doing to get the cops to initiate prosecutions over the last nine years?

    Instead we read this quote: “The Electoral Commission has declined to be interviewed about the matter.”

    What utter arrogance.

    Sack the fool, and replace him with a CEO with the balls to get the cops to begin laying at least some charges for the more serious offences.

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  12. G152 (141 comments) says:

    Those with warrants to uphold the law should.
    No exceptions

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  13. Jack5 (4,569 comments) says:

    A ‘sack the cops’ heading on Kiwiblog. Jackinabox will be skipping around his PC with pleasure when he reads it.

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  14. unaha-closp (1,111 comments) says:

    Again, time to sack the Police.

    The police behaviour is merely symptomatic of a flawed system, designed by bi-partisan politicians to not work.

    Just sack the politicians.

    Everyone right-wing vote ACT; everyone left-wing vote Green.

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  15. Harriet (4,498 comments) says:

    Women don’t want the police rape budget spent on these useless fucks and their time wasting and petty squabbles. :cool:

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  16. Redbaiter (7,522 comments) says:

    It costs huge amounts of money to prosecute these idiot level playing field laws and Police like every other govt dept have a fixed budget.

    This is just another example of the vacuum that exists in this country when it comes to right wing thinking, especially within the National Party.

    if the Nats were as committed to the ideal of freedom and liberty and small govt they would be dismantling these laws, clearing them from the books. They are all mostly left wing in their source, based on the fantasy that the “rich” should not be permitted to overly influence the electoral process.

    I say lets have open slather, let’s not cripple democracy with unworkable regulations and let’s not blame the Police for failing to prosecute laws that are difficult to enforce and a legislative dog’s breakfast anyway.

    You want even more of what you earn taken from you by ever expanding govt then demand that they be enforced. Or you could demand that they be done away with.

    Generally those who don’t actually pay tax will never object to more of it being collected from those who do.

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  17. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    Mikenmild, this is the fact of the matter. In Xero Accounting, they tell us when you bill someone, you must put their name and address in all capitals. I know this cause I’m an accountant. I’ve noticed my letters from the IRD, the electric company and the bank, have my name and address in all capitals. Whenever you refer to someone in a financial sense their name is to be in all capitals, this is the fact of the matter.

    Most of my comments have positive ticks, most of your comments have negative ticks. Obviously your not an accountant.

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  18. mikemikemikemike (301 comments) says:

    And if you find out that they can’t investigate 113 cases of burglary, rape, arson, etc because they are investigating electoral fraud?

    How about resource the police properly to tackle what we actually care about first before asking them to do stuff that no one really cares about. (and really, while we will be pissed off about all this, in the scheme of things we don’t genuinely care)

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  19. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    Redbaiter, I think we should simplify our laws. I think we get taxed enough already. The fact that fines help fund so much of the police makes you wonder where our taxes are going to already. I don’t think we should raise tax. We should just chop silly things out, and have a proper police station.

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  20. publicwatchdog (2,093 comments) says:

    NZ needs a genuine and specialised Independent Commission Against Corruption. I am delighted to inform you that yesterday Labour MP Andrew Little presented a petition from fellow anti-corruption ‘Whistle blower’ Grace Haden – calling for exactly that. Penny Bright

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  21. Yvette (2,687 comments) says:

    For a moment consider why Prime Minister John Key would not publicly admit to reading or knowing what was in the Police report on the John Banks investigation, or the possible theft of Liu donations to Labour, and you will understand to some degree why the Police do not want to touch any of this stuff with the proverbial barge pole.

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  22. Colville (2,062 comments) says:

    I woudl prefere to see the Police doing the job. Electioral fraud/damage/funding rorts are all crimes . Police do investigation of crime. Why do we need another agency?
    Less is better than more.

    As stated above from Minister on down, “please explain”, then what do we need to change?

    We need a clear message that this election will be clean and any failings will be dealt with whatever colour the rosette you are wearing.

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  23. mikenmild (10,618 comments) says:

    Meatloaf
    Perhaps you would be so good as to point out where in legislation or case law you draw support for the lunatic notion that there is a legal effect to spelling your name in capitals. So far as I know, this is one of the symptoms displayed by the freeman-on-the-land nutjobs.

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  24. Redbaiter (7,522 comments) says:

    Meatloaf- there are hundreds of thousands of NZers who like to make themselves the victims of predatory govt. I am not one of them, but in a democracy I can’t do much about it but use my right to freedom of expression and object.

    The problem is many just see govt as some kind of great paternal influence that gets its money from another galaxy. They don’t understand that govts have no money, and that the voters have to raise the money themselves to support govt and everything it does.

    Commenters above are right. These are idiot laws dreamed up by professional politicians who introduced this impossible legislation with no regard to how difficult and costly it would be to enforce.

    And now that has become obvious, what are they doing but calling for more govt and more money, all at the working man’s expense, to try and make an unworkable idea work.

    Fuck em I say. Fuck them and the horses they rode in on. The legislation is too difficult and costly to prosecute and it should be wiped from the statutes. There’s plenty of more important things to spend money on, like our own families.

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  25. lazza (358 comments) says:

    Move on Move on… nothing to see here.

    Police, the OAG, Ministers of the Crown, Councils, Local Government Commission, public authorities alike … these days all show gob-smacking obstruction-reluctance to do their job and investigate and report.

    So much for our hard-won democratic processes. Time our pollies “saw that they did … and do their jobs”.

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  26. publicwatchdog (2,093 comments) says:

    I’ve just checked with the Table Office. Petition 2011/0117 of Grace Haden, calling for an Independent Commission Against Corruption has been sent to the Law and Order Select Committee. This information is not yet up on the Parliamentary website – but should be soon. Penny Bright

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  27. lazza (358 comments) says:

    Meatloaf you say/said … “Obviously your not an accountant.”

    Obvously ["you are not"] … ["youre not"] … a “grammatician”.

    Sorry … I could not ["could'nt"] … resist it.

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  28. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    Mikenmild, you asked a question here is your answer. When I went to the companies office site, i looked up the warehouse, and I looked up NZ Post. All the names came out in 100% capital letters. I’ve talked to other people working in government who said they always put people’s names and addresses in all caps, but they don’t know why. So, maybe it is difficult to find in case law. Maybe it would take time to search the financial reporting act, or company and partnership law, which was a required textbook when studying accounting. But if you go to the companies office, it will confirm what I’ve said, names of corporations in 100% capital letters. What do you mean by freeman on land? I’m just referring to companies, that’s all.

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  29. backster (2,074 comments) says:

    Redbaiter makes the most sense, most of these breaches are minor and the problem is Electoral Law Restriction. Minor breaches should be resolved by the Electoral Commission demanding an explanation from the alleged offenders and automatically fining them if the explanation is not satisfactory. The Offender could then have right of appeal to the court. Serious offences such as the Daljit Singh criminal disgrace should be referred to Police or Serious Fraud Office but to the greatest extent possible Police and Courts should stay clear of Political involvement lest their bias be all too apparent as it sometimes seems now.

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  30. gump (1,474 comments) says:

    @Meatloaf

    “In Xero Accounting, they tell us when you bill someone, you must put their name and address in all capitals. ”

    ———————–

    No. That’s never been a requirement in Xero. Their system allows you to use whatever capitalisation you prefer.

    I literally have no idea why you think this is a legal requirement.

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  31. mikenmild (10,618 comments) says:

    lazza
    I think you meant ‘grammarian’.
    Meatloaf
    I can assure you that this is pseudolegal nonsense. The freemen on the land are a bunch of people who believe that by using certain legalistic formulas they can get out of obeying certain laws that they don’t like. We have an active one on Kiwiblog, Ugly Truth, although he doesn’t accept that label. There is no legal effect to using capital letters. Any lawyer will confirm this.

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  32. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    Hi Gump, I’m referring to the book Xero for Dummies, and it says when you bill somebody, and then it talks about capitalisation, when you bill somebody. This book is an ebook. But even if that’s not the case, if you look at any correspondence you get from the banks, the IRD, or your power, you will notice this is the case, although to be sneeky, your first two names are initialled. And like I’ve said, if you go to the NZ companies office, you will see names of companies, as I’ve described.

    I remember when studying accounting that when you set-up a company, it is an artificial person. And in the states they recommend this saying that your company can’t be sued. If the company is not a real life and blood company, then their should be something to indicate its not life and blood.

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  33. lazza (358 comments) says:

    mikeenmild

    I am, as it happens a “personal prounoun” … “Grammarian” (as in AGS OB) and contend (Std Oxon Dict 1974: UK edition) …

    “Grammatician” … a popular term describing “one who possesses good grammatical skills-knowledge”.

    “Put” … “pipe” … “smoke it”?

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  34. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    Mikenmild, I’m not one of those people who is saying we should ignore laws. Although you may have heard me say that people should read the fine print before they get into agreement.

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  35. mikenmild (10,618 comments) says:

    ‘Grammatician’ does not come up at dictionary.com, which I usually find has a quite wide range of possible, even dubious, words. Though I see Wiktionary has it, and the even more unusual ‘grammaticist’.

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  36. lazza (358 comments) says:

    Ahhh MM “Les Englais” … ze language eez al-wazz … “in transition”

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  37. Tarquin North (119 comments) says:

    I was under the impression the police had to act on a complaint. Is this not true or has no one complained?

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  38. Dom Knots (155 comments) says:

    I’m happy to wait for the media to roll out police spokesperson Greg (the police must have more weapons) O’ Connor, for his always balanced opinion.

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  39. MH (624 comments) says:

    A return to Capital punishment is nigh.

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  40. Paulus (2,493 comments) says:

    I think it is rather simple – the Police do not want to be seen to be in the Political Arena.
    Whatever they do will be seen as bias, and they would rather be criticised than get in a shit fight or two.

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  41. wf (371 comments) says:

    lazza (344 comments) says:
    July 3rd, 2014 at 11:18 am
    Meatloaf you say/said … “Obviously your not an accountant.”

    Obvously ["you are not"] … ["youre not"] … a “grammatician”.

    Sorry … I could not ["could'nt"] … resist it.

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    * * * * * *

    Hahaha. “you’re” is a contraction of “you are”, written to describe speech as heard. Similarly “couldn’t” is a contraction of “could not”. The apostrophe goes in place of the missing vowel in each case. If you were being really correct, you would not use any contractions at all when writing posts.

    And of course you will know that “your” is a possessive pronoun, indicating ownership of something.

    There are usually quite logical and obvious reasons for the use of apostrophes. But not often in plurals.

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  42. Dom Knots (155 comments) says:

    maybe we could get a few of those good officers that are hoggin’ up loads of prime time viewing on tele with their tattoo’s, bangles, jazzy hairdo’s and car chase antics to put their ten cents in on the topic.

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  43. jackinabox (555 comments) says:

    “It might be time to sack the police, but not before we find out why there hasn’t been a single prosecution and whether its the police who are corrupt, the various ministers of police or Parliament.”

    Sack the police! NOW, when it affects you directly you want to sack the police. Bloody hypocrites! Every other time that the porky bastards are obviously up to their dirty tricks you reckon that they are the good guys, such as in the John Banks cover-up case. Even now some of the ‘cops can do no wrong’ brigade are putting the blame on resourcing and priorities, when all the time its nothing but corruption. NZ has one the best police forces in the world my arse! Christ you buggers are dumb! Hi Jack5 lol.

    “Tarquin North (63 comments) says:

    July 3rd, 2014 at 12:24 pm

    I was under the impression the police had to act on a complaint”

    Well I can attest from personal experience that that the police do not need a complaint to prosecute.

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  44. MT_Tinman (2,985 comments) says:

    lazza (344 comments) says:
    July 3rd, 2014 at 11:18 am
    Meatloaf you say/said … “Obviously your not an accountant.”

    Obvously ["you are not"] … ["youre not"] … a “grammatician”.

    Sorry … I could not ["could'nt"] … resist it.

    Nothing wrong with correcting poor grammar – as long as you can spell couldn’t correctly ;-)

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  45. lazza (358 comments) says:

    WF … Thanks … Just Love It?

    But then … See what happens “when one strays from one’s (note apostrophe) normal field of knowledge/expertise”.

    But hey? … does not the controversy still “rage” unabated over the misuse … (even the “disuse!”) of apostrophes?

    Sigh …

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  46. Linda Reid (396 comments) says:

    WOW this thread has taken a weird path.

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  47. anticorruptionnz (158 comments) says:

    The police do not need sacking ,in fact things would be a lot worse without them . What has happened is that the Government has become more corrupt. It does not have standards of conduct for MPs or a code of ethics. There is a bill to that effect before parliament safely tucked into the bottom of the ballot box .- who know its probably removed for safe keeping every time a bill goes to ballot.

    The police used to be a service. It is now a business. The police now largely have to generate their own income. A patrol is financed by ACC and NZ transport. – Hence injury and traffic offences are pushed to the hilt. The reason traffic was amalgamated with the police so that they could work for their dosh._ I recall John Banks was behind that and we all know what he was up to .

    So the police now spend all their time working to keep afloat/ solvent . Compare this to a a police service funded entirely by treasury one which has not sold its soul to its sponsors and one which has the staff free to investigate.

    Even in my day we used to have piles of files sitting under a desk which did not get a look in, the police are simply under resourced and under funded.– this is deliberate.

    When I joined we had to sit an IQ test if you failed that you became a Traffic officer at MOT. if you didn’t get to their standard you became a council TO or if you were not intelligent enough for that a meter maid.

    We now have meter maids who became police officers .. we dumbed down the police, require high fitness levels ( believe me adrenalin works wonders when you are in a tight spot ) reduce funding and distract officers by having to provide the funds for their own wages. then we complain that the police are not performing like they used to.

    Believe me, it is political while the now not so intelligent( on average ) police officers try to keep their heads above water anything complicated slips through .

    I believe that an independent commission agaisnt corruption is the answer my reasons are here
    http://www.anticorruption.co.nz/2014/07/02/why-i-initiated-a-petition-for-a-commission-against-corruption/

    I thank all of those who signed the petition and Andrew Little for presenting it .

    Grace Haden
    Independent Epsom resident standing for Epsom.

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  48. lazza (358 comments) says:

    Quite right Linda. Apostrophes suck. right? Got it … now back to police and public agency manana/malaise (splg?).

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  49. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    Well said anticorruptionnz, I completely agree they are well underfunded and think like a business, rather than a public service.

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  50. georgebolwing (602 comments) says:

    I’m with Red on this one. As US Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis said in 1927, “the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.” I can’t see any reason why we have to have most of the laws restricting speech or actions during election campaigns.

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  51. RJL (144 comments) says:

    @Gump “I literally have no idea why you [Meatloaf] think this [Capitalisation] is a legal requirement.”

    Probably a confused reading of this particular conspiracy:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_conspiracy_arguments#.22Capital_letters.22_argument

    I do know that font choice can have legal effect. Use of Comic Sans, for example, is considered legally equivalent to a “do not resuscitate” order.

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  52. georgebolwing (602 comments) says:

    This idea that the Police are “funded” by fines is just wrong.

    Look at the Estimates (http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/2014/estimates/v7/est14-v7-police.pdf).

    This financial year, Vote Police is budgeted to spend $1,461,568,000 on its various operations. Plus a further $96 million in capital spending. Plus a further $3.5 million on Policy Advice and Ministerial Services. All up, over one and a half billion dollars.

    It is also expected to raise a mere $71 million of Crown revenue through infringement notices. This money goes to the Crown, not to the police. If they collect $72 m in revenue, their expenditure will still be $1,461,568,000.

    Even if you think that there is some informal between fines and spending, that $71m represents less than 5% of spending

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  53. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    RJL, let me clarify what Gump and I have been arguing about. When you write to a minister, Honorable is appropriate, when you speak to the judge, your worship is appropriate. When you write to a company, or they write to you, you are dealing in money. This is all I’m saying. If you look at the NZ companies office, a company’s name is capitalised. I’m not saying anything at all about paying or not paying taxes.

    I’m just stating that with companies the way they address you and you address them is in an appropriate way. I pay my taxes every year, if there’s any confusion.

    Georgebolwing, thanks for putting some figures in, The crown spends $1,461,568,000 on the police, and the police raise $71,000,000 from fines. So now we know how much of our fines go to fund the police. Thank you.

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  54. RJL (144 comments) says:

    @Meatloaf:

    So, you don’t think it is possible to refer to “eBay Inc.” in a legal document?

    Also you were talking about “all capitals” earlier, not merely capitalised? [@Meatloaf 10:37am].

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  55. dog_eat_dog (743 comments) says:

    The Army seem to do a pretty good job in Thailand, maybe we should try that?

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  56. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    RJL, I typed in “Ebay Inc”, their office is in San Jose. So, I tried to find the US company office, I typed in:

    “Corporate registrations in the United States of America” in a google search engine, it should give you access to the equivalent of a companies office. I picked California. And through the database, I found Ebay. And yes Ebay was in 100% capital letters. So in the companies office, all the companies are in 100% capital letters, however as you pointed out, as far as there sign is concerned it is in normal english. When I said capitalised I meant 100% capitalised.

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  57. mikenmild (10,618 comments) says:

    Well jeesh. Just once again, I’ll say it slowly – putting a name in CAPITALS has NO legal effect. It is a typical claim from the deranged who imagine they have grievances with our courts.

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  58. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    Mikenmild, all I’m saying is when you speak to people their is an appropriate way of greeting them. Your worship to the judge, honorable to an MP. I am not saying to avoid tax, or the courts, or the law or anything like that. Nowhere have I said that. All I’m saying is companies deal in money, and the companies in the companies office for NZ, and companies registration for the US, have the company names in capital letters. Saying your worship or honorable, does not change who they are, it is simply an appropriate way of greeting them. And corporations deal in money. I am not saying anything beyond this. Capitalism refers to money. So if you say ebay, or EBAY, it won’t make a difference legally, just like forgetting to say Honorable, is all about respect and the way you greet someone.

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  59. Anthony (766 comments) says:

    The trouble is that politicians and most of the public think that the solution to some laws not working properly (actually the solution to just about any ill in society) is to beef up the law, and when that doesn’t work the solution is to try again with yet more rules and regulations and laws! No wonder we have so many well paid lawyers and thousands of bureaucrats!

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  60. RightNow (6,646 comments) says:

    Grace/Anticorruptionnz – I used to think you were fighting for something altruistic but now I think you’re a Penny Bright (deranged Key-hater). What happened to you?

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  61. Meatloaf (142 comments) says:

    Well said, Anthony, yea I’m in favour of chopping down as many unnecessary rules as possible, and let’s just focus on the really important stuff. My example is text bullying. I can a block on anyone I want, I just text the number I want to block to 713 via Vodafone. I’ve tried the 4 text rule. Where you wait to be abused 4 times straight, and then they delete that person’s number. I’ve tried that 3 times, and in two of those times the bullies came up with all sorts of excuses, so nothing happened. But ever since I’ve tried the Vodafone block, I haven’t had any problems since, and I don’t have to wait to be abused.

    Text bullies, will attack until you give them what they want, so it makes sense that anyone should be able to put an immediate block rather than wait for these buffoons to get their act up, and talk to the bully and let the bully come up with all sorts of excuses. I don’t take those chances anymore.

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  62. UglyTruth (3,954 comments) says:

    Hi Meatloaf,

    AFAIK, nobody has ever been able to show that a name written in ALL CAPS is a nomme de guerre / artificial person / straw man etc.

    What can be shown is that a name in ALL CAPS can have an alternate meaning. In the KJV the word “Lord” is a title, but LORD is a reference to the tetragrammaton, a proper name which identifies a particular being. Thus it can be argued that writing someone’s name in ALL CAPS may introduce ambiguity, and that it should be avoided unless there is a good reason for doing it.

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