Can Banks get a discharge without conviction, as the son of the Maori King has?

July 6th, 2014 at 4:00 pm by David Farrar

A reader e-mails:

I suggest this decision by serial offender Judge Phillippa Cunningham strengthens the case for to argue for a discharge without conviction on the electoral fraud charges,  A few points:
 
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10229216/Maori-Kings-son-avoids-conviction
 
Stats have come out this week confirming police almost never investigate Electoral Act complaints (either local or national).  Burglary is typically investigated, at least on the surface.  Often goes no further due to lack of evidence.  Same with theft.  Drink driving is essentially always investigated, given the evidence is collected live at the scene of apprehension.  This demonstrates the seriousness with which the police see burglary, theft and drink driving as opposed to electoral fraud charges and the regularity with which they lay charges.
 
The charge John Banks was found guilty of carries a max of 2 years imprisonment.  Burglary carries a max of 10 years and is a serious crime.  Theft under $500 is 3 months max.
 
There are a host of other arguments in terms of the relative seriousness of the two scenarios, including Paki’s relative youth, Paki’s prior convictions/youth Court notations, burglary offending committed complicit with 3 other offenders, Bank’s prior clean record (as I understand).  I won’t go into them all.
 
But it is interesting to compare the two cases given both could argue they have ‘futures’ that a conviction may put the kibosh on (royalty v political).

It will be interesting to see the decision of the court, in August.

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127 Responses to “Can Banks get a discharge without conviction, as the son of the Maori King has?”

  1. stigie (1,310 comments) says:

    Penny says no !!!!

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  2. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    He’d have to have his chin surgically removed and wear a silly red hat! :)

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  3. alloytoo (571 comments) says:

    One could point to 113 uninvestigated electoral offenses

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  4. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Bathing in strong tea may also help of course! :)

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  5. Yvette (2,845 comments) says:

    The Herald has viewed the donation return and counted 11 of $5000, three of $7500, another 11 of $10,000, three of $20,000 and five of $25,000. Only a handful of large anonymous donations are for amounts that appear in the return only once.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833584

    Within the rules, please tell me how Banks could have confirmed which of five amounts of $25,000 were Dotcoms?
    And next, how that is different to the six month secret loan Cunliffe turned donations into, when he decided, without knowing who they were :-) , that they would be grievously embarrassed to acknowledge.

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  6. fernglas (167 comments) says:

    I can’t think of two more dissimilar cases, nor can I see a decision of a recently ordained District Court Judge sitting in a list court influencing a High Court judge. One is a young man with a possible future, the other an old man with a past. One offended in a way that had direct victims (as far as the burglary was concerned), the other in a way that offended against the whole of society. One has a max of 2 years, the other, as pointed out, 10 years. In one case there was contrition, in the other, defiance. Find me a similarity and I might be prepared to compare the two cases. Otherwise, it’s a discretion to be exercised by the High Court on its own facts.

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  7. the fox (2 comments) says:

    Yes sure he can , it’s the old story the more you do the more chance of a mistake, banks is not perfect but try’s hard does his best and has done lots of good things for us all. Forgive his cock up! As for penny well she has head problems but too is basically ok

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  8. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    I wasn’t aware Banks was a Prince, I always thought of him as more of a ‘princess’.

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  9. IC5000 (121 comments) says:

    Let’s see, one party was a grown man with decades of business and political experience who was convicted of laundering money (proceeds of crime perhaps) solicited from a criminal in order to circumvent Electoral funding laws with a view to gain access to political figures and favourable treatment. The other party was a 19 year old male who went on a bender and stole some surf boards. I can totally see how these offences should be treated in the same manner.

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  10. Ross Miller (1,706 comments) says:

    I have to suspect that a Discharge without Conviction is not a realistic option. We can point to the fact that Cunliffe only got a Police warning when he broke the Electoral Act at the time of the ChCh East bi-election but, times have moved on since then.

    Certainly though a Conviction and Discharge must be on the table. John Banks has already paid a disproportionate price. Enough is enough.

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  11. FeralScrote (224 comments) says:

    I`m assuming this is Banks` first offence ,so why should he not get a discharge w/o conviction?
    The chinless inbred that is the prince apparently has priors.
    I see the looney McCready wants a hollywood movie introduced as evidence in his crusade against John Key, with him and Penny it`s more proof that the nutters have taken over the asylum.

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  12. IC5000 (121 comments) says:

    “FeralScrote (37 comments) says:
    July 6th, 2014 at 4:42 pm
    I`m assuming this is Banks` first offence ,so why should he not get a discharge w/o conviction?”

    So if committed a first offence such as murder then by that rationale I should get a discharge without conviction? Maybe you should think about this a little more.

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  13. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Judith: One thing about Banks he is no poof!

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  14. big bruv (14,131 comments) says:

    It was a travesty of justice that Banks was convicted in the first place. A discharge without conviction is the least he should expect. The man deserves a full pardon and an apology.

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  15. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    I’m glad that I’m a Mowri. I’m pleased that I’m a prince.
    When I get off the driving stuff it makes the honkies wince.

    I might look like a little prat but just you wait and see.
    When I get my inheritance It’s on you all I’ll pee!

    My Daddy he is one big Chief and only has one brief.
    To rip off all the Pakeha because they once were thief.

    So while you all sit back at home and wildely knash your teeth
    Remember I’m a Mowri so I couldn’t give a sheet! :)

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  16. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    …one party was a grown man with decades of business and political experience who was convicted of laundering money (proceeds of crime perhaps) solicited from a criminal in order to circumvent Electoral funding laws with a view to gain access to political figures and favourable treatment.

    You got the bit about a grown man and his experience right. The rest is all factually incorrect.

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  17. Chuck Bird (4,923 comments) says:

    DPF, did you notice your emailer refers to Judge Phillippa Cunningham as serial offender. Does he mean she has made a number of questionable decisions? I remember the on about the comedian. Does any one know of any others?

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  18. FeralScrote (224 comments) says:

    I suggest IC5000,you take your own advice , it is quite common in what passes for the NZ legal system for those coming before the courts for non-violent offences for the first time to get diversion or discharges .
    The “prince ” has ,by all reports, prior offences on his record yet gets a free pass,so why not for Banks for at worst fiddling his books,which is basically a victimless crime like the former crime of prostitution.
    If it is perfectly acceptable for the Labour party to retrospectively change the law to suit itself then it is acceptable for the rest of us,double standards for one should be double standards for all of us.

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  19. Captain Pugwash (98 comments) says:

    There is NO Maori king! He is the King of some maori, mainly those in the Waikato area. The rest think he is a fat lazy slug.

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  20. IC5000 (121 comments) says:

    “labrator (1,716 comments) says:
    July 6th, 2014 at 4:56 pm

    You got the bit about a grown man and his experience right. The rest is all factually incorrect.”

    Right, because obese German criminals suddenly decide to donate money to right wing politicians out of the kindness of their heart and expect nothing in return? People should grow up and see this for what is really is – influence peddling.

    FYI FeralScrote I believe that labour should have gone down for their actions as well so my stance in apolitical in terms of violation of the Electoral Act. No matter how much posters here try to downgrade Bank’s actions they were taken to subvert legislation designed to protect the democratic system. If you think some wannabe maori thug doing a couple of drunken ‘burgs’ poses a greater threat then feel free to take that position but it certainly speaks volumes about how important integrity of democracy is to you.

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  21. OneTrack (3,218 comments) says:

    IC5000 – It is pretty clear DotCom thought he was buying something. I think it is also pretty clear, Banks didn’t think he was selling that thing. Banks thought the guy was just giving a donation. The s**t only hit the fan when Banks didn’t deliver as expected.

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  22. OneTrack (3,218 comments) says:

    Can Banks get a discharge – nah doesn’t have the right blood quantum. And he doesn’t know any good jokes.

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  23. secondcumming (93 comments) says:

    Of course Banksie should bet a bloody discharge! And receive the Knighthood he was well due for.

    Biggest problem for John was that he came up against a ‘Labour appointed judge’…….where was Phillipa when you needed her?

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  24. IC5000 (121 comments) says:

    “OneTrack (2,491 comments) says:
    July 6th, 2014 at 5:26 pm
    IC5000 – It is pretty clear DotCom thought he was buying something. I think it is also pretty clear, Banks didn’t think he was selling that thing. Banks thought the guy was just giving a donation. The s**t only hit the fan when Banks didn’t deliver as expected.”

    In that case maybe Dotcom was the honorable party in the transaction. He’s a businessman after all and as a matter of contract when you pay for something you expect the other party to deliver. Clearly Dotcom misread Banks’ intention to uphold any agreement despite being brought off and decided to extract exemplary damages by judicial means.

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  25. Odakyu-sen (732 comments) says:

    The Captain has a point.

    Rather than “King,” a more accurate title for the Taunui aristocrat would be a “Count” as he kind of holds sway over a county (Waikato?).

    So it would be more accurate to refer to the old man as “Count Paki”

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  26. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    fernglas: do tell me how you detected contrition on the part of the “Prince”…all I saw was a truculent youth with what was possibly a gang related hat, and later in a suit…I don’t believe I have heard him quoted as saying anything…or do you perhaps think if his lawyer told the Judge “he is very contrite” that’s good enough?

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  27. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    The only place I ever see young Mowri wearing a suit and tie seems to be in the dock!

    Funny that! :)

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  28. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Must mean young Mowri crim have more dress sense than young Mowri that haven’t been arrested yet! :)

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  29. Mike (491 comments) says:

    Not only should Banks be pardoned, he should be financially compensated for the stress that has needlessly been placed on him.

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  30. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    JB: there used to be an old Australian joke – back in the far off days when you could go to Oz and get straight on the dole: “What do you call a New Zealander in a suit?” Answer: the defendant…

    I suspect “the Prince” was told to keep his gob firmly shut because to open it would quickly prove that he was anything but contrite, and he really doesn’t like the “chingy Asian c…ts” his facebook page apparently had him saying…

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  31. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    The red hat did nothing for him DG! :)

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  32. dad4justice (8,303 comments) says:

    Johnboy young mowri are always in the dock bro. It’s a badge of honour doing time eh bro.It’s kewl our “prince” and tribe will fix it all bro – as the justice system are culturally sensitive pc fools bro. No worries bro just ask the killer of the Kahui twins . Appalling .

    Banks has done nothing wrong system. How about destroying the headhunter gang Mr Plod? Yeah right you racist pigs!

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  33. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Dad….er….yep!

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  34. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    If he’d worn it backwards at least we could have seen the remorse in his face! :)

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  35. fernglas (167 comments) says:

    David Garrett. He at least pleaded guilty, which is a start on the contrition front as far as the law is concerned, even if in practical terms it is nothing more than bowing to the inevitable.

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  36. stephieboy (3,379 comments) says:

    I do trust Banksie’s counsel is fully informed of Paki’s case.What a great precedent that the learned judge in August should take cognizance of.
    A real lifeline for him or is Paki in a more privileged position in more ways than one,!?

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  37. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    fernglas: sorry to give you a law lecture, but to get a discharge without conviction you have to plead guilty (as I did)…You don’t get a choice.

    The other thing that is totally wrong with this case is it is for one off lapses, not necessarily committed years before like mine was, but ONE offence, the effects of a conviction for which would be out of all proportion to the offence in all the circumstances…It is certainly NOT usually available for a second or third offence committed while on bail for the first…It will be a disgrace if the Crown doesn’t appeal…

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  38. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    one party was a grown man

    Correct

    with decades of business and political experience

    correct

    who was convicted of laundering money

    false

    (proceeds of crime perhaps)

    speculation

    solicited from a criminal

    Requests for donations aren’t really solicitations in this context.

    in order to circumvent Electoral funding laws

    Speculation. If Banks’ intent was thus, he would’ve set up an anonymous trust like Len Brown did.

    with a view to gain access to political figures and favourable treatment.

    Speculation. That may have been what Dotcom thought he was getting but there’s no proof that’s what Banks offered. That would be significantly more illegal that knowingly filing a false return.

    …Bank’s actions they were taken to subvert legislation designed to protect the democratic system.

    I’m fascinated by your take on Len Brown’s secret trust which achieved the same effect perfectly legally. Which if Banks’ intent was as described, would’ve been a much better way of doing it. That’s why Cunliffe did it too.

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  39. peterwn (3,298 comments) says:

    This aspect of the law is well established – higher court judgments are quite clear on this, but aberrations do occur and are not necessarily appealed. Based on higher court precedents, I think that John Banks would not succeed in having his conviction quashed, whereas Paki risks having his case referred back to the District Court with a strong message to enter a conviction.

    It is supposed to be a balance between the seriousness of the offence and the seriousness of the alleged consequences of a conviction, and the alleged consequences tend to be ‘how long is a piece of string’.

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  40. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    peterwn: I thought you were a member of the Brethren of the High One? Banks has not been convicted, so there is nothing to “quash”…yet.

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  41. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    One common denominator, Cunningham was appointed by Michael Cullen, same as the goober that found Banks guilty, favouring the evidence of a convicted criminal. Time this country took stock of these socialist, do-gooder clowns that Labour have appointed. They are the pits.

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  42. IC5000 (121 comments) says:

    Wondered how long it would take for angry middle aged white men to start posting racist diatribes. Kiwiblog never fails to disappoint.

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  43. dad4justice (8,303 comments) says:

    ^^ The truth hurts eh?

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  44. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    IC: If it is so disappointing over here – where almost no-one gets banned – why not fuck off back to where you feel more comfortable?

    Paki’s “Maoriness” is only an issue in this case because HE has made it one, using the fact that he was supposedly in line to be their King – a claim which now turns out to be at best misleading – to get a discharge…in circumstances where NO-ONE else, black white or brindle, would have got one…viz. when there were subsequent offences committed while on bail for the first..

    Can you follow all that? Or should I try to convert it to txt spk?

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  45. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Stop fucking insulting me IC5000. I’m an angry OLD aged white man you young whipper-snapper! :)

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  46. IC5000 (121 comments) says:

    “David Garrett (6,110 comments) says:
    July 6th, 2014 at 6:50 pm
    IC: If it is so disappointing over here – where almost no-one gets banned – why not fuck off back to where you feel more comfortable?”

    Hey, got a mate with a criminal conviction who wants to migrate overseas but needs a new identity and hence a new passport to do so. As someone who has previously stolen the identity of a dead baby to get a false passport would you have any advice on how not to get caught?

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  47. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    IC: Yes…I would suggest he doesn’t try it, at least using the method I used 30 years ago…they have data matching nowadays and he will get caught..

    But try the leftie Tim Selwyn…he also got done for obtaining a falsie, but he used his to defraud, so did some time…He’ll probably have some more up to date information…

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  48. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    IC5000: Would you have the guts to qualify that statement man to man . . . oh I suppose you are a Cunliffe type!

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  49. IC5000 (121 comments) says:

    “igm (1,323 comments) says:
    July 6th, 2014 at 7:00 pm
    IC5000: Would you have the guts to qualify that statement man to man . . . oh I suppose you are a Cunliffe type!”

    Firstly, no because like everyone else here I’m an interweb keyboard warrior who trolls under an anonymous handle for my own cowardly self-gratification at being a nobody in the real world. Secondly,no I am not.

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  50. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    IC: Factually incorrect sonny…about 5% of us here use our own names…over at your spiritual home that is a banning offence I believe…Funny how not one of you little weasels has ever – in the four years since I resigned – come up to me in person and told me I am an asshole…funny that…

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  51. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    I’m an interweb keyboard warrior who trolls under an anonymous handle for my own cowardly self-gratification at being a nobody in the real world

    Factually accurate.

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  52. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    “Firstly, no because like everyone else here I’m an interweb keyboard warrior who trolls under an anonymous handle for my own cowardly self-gratification at being a nobody in the real world. Secondly,no I am not.”

    That’s a fucking long way of telling us you’re a prat IC5000!

    We’d already guessed it by the way! :)

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  53. freemark (614 comments) says:

    How gutless are those that keep on changing their identities here..ICFuckwit has a very strong whiff of Ross69 to me…

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  54. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Quite right freemark. Johnboy the sheepshagger has always been Johnboy the sheepshagger, right from the time when he could only shag very little lambs! :)

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  55. dad4justice (8,303 comments) says:

    IC500 are you James or Peter? Who cares you got a sub standard stench about ya.

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  56. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    freemark: No, Ross69 is back as Ross001…they all sound familiar because they don’t really “do” original thought…it used to be what Marx and Engels and Trostsky told them to think, now is LPrent and Presland over at the swamp…they learn to toe the line PDQ or they get banned, and then how will they fill their time??

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  57. Mike (491 comments) says:

    “IC: Factually incorrect sonny…about 5% of us here use our own names…over at your spiritual home that is a banning offence I believe…Funny how not one of you little weasels has ever – in the four years since I resigned – come up to me in person and told me I am an asshole…funny that…”

    If that happened, i imagine you would be on your first strike ;)

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  58. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Mike: Common assault is not a strike offence…I guess I should be rather flattered that you think at pushing 60 I am somehow scary…

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  59. Mike (491 comments) says:

    Common assault can easily lead to a more serious charge, depending on the outcome. I don’t think you’re scary, just thought its ironic that its plausible that you could be convicted under 3S in a hypothetical where someone approached you.

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  60. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    JB: You are not telling us you were the “Jake the Ped” of the drafting yards??

    Mike: You are revealing your ignorance…stick to making anonymous jabs on the interweb…

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  61. Mike (491 comments) says:

    I am not even making a jab, just pointing out a factual truth

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  62. Manolo (14,030 comments) says:

    Only Murri “royalty” get preferential treatment.

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  63. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    if judges where elected by society who pay them to uphold the rights of society, then we wouldn’t have these traversties

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  64. Reid (16,632 comments) says:

    Given that the law has to be impartial in that it cannot and will never be applied to a person based on his title or position in society but rather on ‘other criteria,’ I woulda thought the Judge in this decision has ripped a galactic-sized hole in the ratio decidendi fabric pertaining to whom precisely is entitled to a discharge or diversion or whatever this was.

    Which means appeals galore by all sorts of underserving mendicants in the future, paid for by you know who, I would imagine.

    Unless the Crown appeals and tries to limit the decision ratio. And is it going to do that, in an election year, when it could be accused of being wacist?

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  65. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Paul M: One of the the several things I wanted to look at in depth was the American system of elected Judges…I know very little about it, and no-one else in NZ does either…I am pretty sure that – at least in most states – they are only fairly low level, probably the equivalent of the District Court..

    Well there are undoubtedly downsides, you would think that an elected judiciary would tend to reflect what the majority of the “electorate” thought about justice and sentencing… but then our politicians seem very very frightened of direct democracy…seems to work pretty well in Switzerland…No idea if they have elected Judges there…

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  66. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    Funny how not one of you little weasels has ever – in the four years since I resigned – come up to me in person and told me I am an asshole…funny that…

    Maybe it’s just a function of how many times you’ve published your address and GPS coordinates @ The Standard?

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  67. Mike (491 comments) says:

    You may find them favorable David, judicial elections (in Texas anyway) seem to favor Judges who take a “tough on crime” approach.

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  68. publicwatchdog (2,796 comments) says:

    errr…. ipredict that John Banks will NOT be discharged without conviction.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    http://www.dodgyjohnHASgone.com

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  69. big bruv (14,131 comments) says:

    David Garrett

    I wish we could have a system that would see us end up with somebody like Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

    I can just see an vast number of tents pitched on the volcanic plateau (very near the desert road) surrounded by razor wire where we send all our petty and first or second time offenders. Six weeks, or six months working (in the middle of winter) on one of Sheriff Joe’s chain gangs would cure most of wanting to return.

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  70. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Its an idiot: I have never been on the Standard since I left parliament…but I have certainly advised people here where to find me…and that would explain why no-one has come up to my face to tell me I am an asshole …why exactly??

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  71. big bruv (14,131 comments) says:

    Penny

    What does ipredict say about your chances of beating John Key in Hellensville?

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  72. Reid (16,632 comments) says:

    errr…. ipredict that John Banks will NOT be discharged without conviction.

    Perhaps it escaped you Penny but we’re discussing whether he should be, not whether he will be…

    errr…

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  73. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Given that the law has to be impartial in that it cannot and will never be applied to a person based on his title or position in society

    In my experience rank is important; a constable can only effectively bring suit against a person, it takes a sergeant to bring charges against a man. Historically, commoners couldn’t bring suit against knights.

    person: A man considered according to the rank he holds in society, with all the rights to which the place he holds entitles him, and the duties which it imposes. 1 Bouv. Inst. no. 137. A human being considered as capable of having rights and or being charged with duties, while a “thing” is the object over which rights may be exercised. (Black’s 2nd (1910))

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  74. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    BB: I don’t know if I have told you, but I have visited Sherriff Joe and his tent jails…I agree that they are a good idea cost wise, but the unfortunate reality is that recidivism rates from his jails are no better than conventional jails in the state…He does manage to run them at very low cost though, which we could also do by emulating his methods…such as feeding prisoners on food which is past it’s “best before” date but still perfectly OK (I asked for one of the lunches off the cart when we visited; no-one knew that I was going to do that, and I just picked one at random…what we would call a filled roll, a rather tired apple, and a pot of yoghurt)

    I believe he feeds them for less than USD1.50 per day.

    Instead of 40 degree heat in summer of course, ours would be as cold as charity in the winter…It has always bugged me that prisoners get centrally heated cells in this country while some pensioners go to bed at 7pm in the winter to save power…fundamentally wrong…

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  75. Mike (491 comments) says:

    I wonder what ipredict would say about someone paying their rates..

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  76. Mike (491 comments) says:

    I personally view it as unconstitutional, but a little factoid you guys might enjoy, Sheriff Joe places a US flag sticker in each cell, and if it is defaced, the prisoner is punished (with solitary i think).

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  77. itstricky (1,880 comments) says:

    Its an idiot: I have never been on the Standard since I left parliament…but I have certainly advised people here where to find me…and that would explain why no-one has come up to my face to tell me I am an asshole …why exactly??

    It was a mickey taking David. By the way – did you know Eton was a non-profit?

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  78. big bruv (14,131 comments) says:

    DG

    Ok, I take your word about the rates of recidivism, however I am not particularly concerned about rehabilitating criminals. I want them locked away because it makes our streets and our property safer.

    And yes, one of the attractions of the volcanic plateau is the bone chilling cold in winter. :)

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  79. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Mike: I don’t think so…unless they have been introduced since McVicar and I were there in 2007…we visited the “ordinary” jail as well as the tent one…never saw a flag sticker anywhere…

    When we were there several members of the chain gang were off it (they are all volunteers) for yelling at women from the bus taking them to work…(they volunteer to be on the chain gang for a number of reasons, including that its stiflingly hot in the conventional jail)

    I’d advise you to get some information on Maracopa county jails from somewhere other than the net…but then you might not know how…

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  80. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    Humans are animals and like a wayward dog or sheep, we are all genetically pre-dispositioned to respond to discipline and structured regiimes so we can co-exist in society and reproduce the spieces. NZ courts fail miserably at the first hurdle. It is why Gideon Tait was the best copper NZ ever had.

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  81. Mike (491 comments) says:

    David,

    I was wrong about the sticker, it seems it is an actual flag, anywhere he is a link from earlier this year (from a conservative source, so they have no reason to discredit the man)

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/26/arizona-sheriff-joe-arpaio-puts-inmates-on-bread-and-water-for-destroying-us/

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  82. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    BB; Yes, I am with you…realistically we couldn’t put them in tents; half of them would die of exposure…

    My concept of NZ style “tent jails” would be more a POW camp model…huts, maybe with a coal stove for those who earned it..

    One neat little innovation I heard of in the US when we were there (not in Arizona) was having a space between two sets of perimeter wire at a prison where they kept vicious dogs that would otherwise have been put down…prisoners would have to climb into that zone before climbing the outer wire…result: no need for guard towers and zero escapes!

    Talking of huts, remember all the bullshit spouted by the Corrections Association about how double bunking was going to cause mayhem, and stopping prisoners smoking was going to result in riots? All total bullshit as it turned out…

    Talking of bullshit, I wonder if Cunliffe has got some of the wimmin in Labour to teach him how to menstruate?

    Mike: I stand corrected…that looks genuine, and is certainly the kind of thing Arpaio would do…BTW I was far less impressed with him than McVicar was…a bit of a cardboard cutout really…

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  83. Mike (491 comments) says:

    Anyone recall the idea of using shipping containers? Seemed like a cost effective option, got shot down for some reason

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  84. Reid (16,632 comments) says:

    In my experience rank is important; a constable can only effectively bring suit against a person, it takes a sergeant to bring charges against a man. Historically, commoners couldn’t bring suit against knights.

    Yes in real life UT, no in practice when it comes to the law admitting what it bases its decisions on. And the latter is what lawyers can hold to account and since justice is public in that decisions are published, it cannot be denied, no matter how much certain parties might wish otherwise.

    Of course it is, all the time.

    But that’s another story.

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  85. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Mike: Not at all…I visited the converted shipping container cells at Upper Hutt Prison (cant remember its correct Maori name…)

    They ended up not needing them because since 2010 the prison population has declined rather than increase, as was predicted…I wonder why that might have been??

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  86. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    I have employed a number of ex-cons over the years and the one thing they all have in common is anger. In nearly all instances that I can recall, its because they all lacked any positive, male role models during their informative years.

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  87. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Paul M: No surprise there…I wonder what the Maori “Prince’s” excuse is??

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  88. big bruv (14,131 comments) says:

    DG

    “half of them would die of exposure…”

    And the problem with that is????

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  89. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    DG: I rest my case.

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  90. Reid (16,632 comments) says:

    In nearly all instances that I can recall, its [anger] because they all lacked any positive, male role models during their informative years.

    Drawing a long suppositionary bow there Paul. Not saying its wrong. Saying causes of anger are many and various with lack of male role models being a major, but nevertheless not exclusive root cause.

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  91. Mike (491 comments) says:

    The problem is that if we condemn prisoners (note: not just murderers and rapists) to a death by cooking, that makes us no different from dictatorship type regimes.

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  92. Mike (491 comments) says:

    I see a contradiction here. There are a lot of folk that believe that the crime of rape is heavily skewed to be disfavorable to males, yet at the same time they are harboring a “let them rot” mentality (where convicted rapists are concerned).

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  93. goldnkiwi (1,513 comments) says:

    big bruv (12,953 comments) says:

    July 6th, 2014 at 8:30 pm

    It is good enough for the army and their families, so good enough for crims.

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  94. peterwn (3,298 comments) says:

    David – oops! Now when I have pulled my foot from mouth…… I do not see how the judge can decline to enter a conviction against John Banks. The precedents are too strong. Also AFAIK it does not seem to be a ‘moral turpitude’ matter so it would not affect John’s ability to enter USA. But then stranger things have happened. If one of the two were to be discharged without conviction, I would prefer it to be John.

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  95. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Mike: Except no-one – or at least not me – is talking about death by cooking (or exposure)…the good thing about cold is that it’s much easier to combat than heat (the tent jails in Arizona have steel frames which are too hot to touch..

    POW’s survived German winters with a coal stove in each hut…Prisoners in NZ style tent/hut jails would no doubt survive the much higher temperatures…Even the volcanic plateau is not as cold as southern Germany..Being a compassionate chap as I am, I would advocate giving them sub zero sleeping bags..or at least one of them issued on arrival…if they destroyed it or ripped or burnt it they could fucking freeze…

    Peterwn: I am not a criminal lawyer so you would probably know more about precedents for such offences than I…Am I right that someone in Paki’s position – committed further offences while on bail – should never be a candidate for discharge without conviction??

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  96. big bruv (14,131 comments) says:

    DG

    Small problem with your coal stove idea old chap. Remember this is NZ and as such the stinking Greens have decided (on all of our behalf’s) that coal is a bad thing.

    Having said that, I am nothing if not a practical man. My idea would be to ship that mad bint Delahunty down there for a few days to teach the crims how to make combustible bricks out of their own waste. We then fix two problems in one go. No sewerage problem and no nasty coal burning.

    Damn sight cheaper as well.

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  97. Mike (491 comments) says:

    David,

    I was referring to bruv, as he seems to be fine with that. Regardless, prison conditions, and prisoner safety are of minimal concern to you though right? If innocent men are being put away because of unfair procedures where rape is concerned, should it not follow that one should take something like this into account when tarring all prisoners with the same brush?

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  98. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Mike: You are trying to put words in my mouth, and I am not interested in playing…someone else might be bothered to engage with you..

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  99. Mike (491 comments) says:

    I didn’t attribute anything to you, i asked you a question.

    Following the logic (not saying its necessarily yours), we can make prisons an absolute hellhole to stay in, because prisoners are deserving of nothing better, but anyone could end up bring a prisoner because of the allegedly biased rape laws!

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  100. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    DG. To be fair, traversties of justice occur just as frequently at the top end of the socio economic scale, if not more. During my experiences(s) over the years, even in the most serious cases involving a death, it can be a matter of what not what you know, but whom you know, and how much you are prepared to pay a complainent as hush money, for the police to pervert the course of justice and purposely fudge crime scene records, so that the defendant faces a lessor charge. I know. Its occurred in my family.

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  101. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    You can’t run a prison system on the basis that someone in there just might be innocent…there are much better ways of dealing with that phenomenon…Innocence projects and the like…

    I don’t say prisons should be “hellholes” but they certainly should be places people are not at all keen to return to…and unlike most of the “experts” on here I have visited a number of prisons, both men’s and women’s, adults and juveniles, so I know something of which I speak…

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  102. Nostalgia-NZ (5,274 comments) says:

    Interested to know that the 4 prison ‘farms’ on the central North Island Volanic Plateau never existed or exist now, particularly Hautu with its wooden huts where the COs were kept in WW2. The late Greg King added to the myth because he claimed his father worked there and that his family lived in ‘officers’ village. There were even fabrications that in Ohura, slightly to the west was where the ‘affluent’ favoured sons, police offenders and similar were sent. Thank goodness for experts.

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  103. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    The former Ohura prison – where they did indeed send white collar prisoners and crooked cops – is now a back packers hostel… I was there last October on a back roads tour of eastern Taranaki…Perhaps you should go and have a look…you’ll probably feel at home.

    No, actually they probably kept you somewhere more secure…the only thing secure about Ohura is it’s a long way from anywhere.

    How dare a POS like you attack the late Greg King…a prince of a man.

    Better go…for some reason that escapes me the headmaster doesn’t allow robust dialogue with this particular POS

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  104. Mike (491 comments) says:

    Having just read Greg Kings wikipedia, he indeed was a top bloke.

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  105. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    Hugh Rennie SM, was convicted of perjury and sentenced to 6 months imprisonment (from memory) and served at the Ohura prison farm back in circa 1968. I had great joy in razzing the bastard at the Ohura cosi club one afternoon (during one of their outings), for convicting me of an offence I did not commit (about a year earlier). Revenge was sweet that day.

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  106. Nostalgia-NZ (5,274 comments) says:

    So as expected Greg King was right after all. So too Baxter, whose father was ‘kept safe’ in Hautu, I think Thomas may have been there as well – much later of course and after two fair trials. Come to think of it I seem to recall meeting a few of Baxter’s contemporaries and without exception they never bowed down or were broken by the cold. Tough buggers really.

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  107. Fentex (1,014 comments) says:

    There’s no particular reason to compare Banks to this rather than any other case where a person was discharged without conviction. You may as well compare Banks to any random youth discharged for some indiscretion as this particular one.

    It’s a pretty silly thing to pretend there’s some sort of equivalency between just these two people rather than any person discharged without conviction and any other person yet to be sentenced.

    I personally suspect it was wrong to discharge Paki as while a first offence for driving drunk may possibly be considered a forgivable indiscretion (I am conflicted on the issue) I don’t feel the same can be said for burglary. And that’s the issue I would discuss when decrying the decision. That Banks is a guilty man waiting sentencing has nothing to do with it.

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  108. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    I’m assuming this is Banks` first offence ,so why should he not get a discharge w/o conviction?

    Banks has a previous conviction for a breach of the Civil Aviation Act committed while he was Minister of Police. I think he got fined $750 or something like that.

    sorry to give you a law lecture, but to get a discharge without conviction you have to plead guilty (as I did)…You don’t get a choice.

    That’s not quite true. Discharges without conviction are more rare for people who plead not guilty, but they do occasionally happen.

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  109. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Paul M: You must be a Taranaki boy? Rennie was the one who got caught shagging a cleaner in the NP courtroom and then swore a false affidavit saying he had never had sex with her wasn’t he? Another former Judge (or it may have been the same one) did time in Ohura and then became an ACC appeals “Judge” IIRC…

    Interesting little place Ohura BTW…the nearest to a ghost town you will find anywhere in the North Island…the main street has all these abandoned shops…the former Ford dealer is now a junk shop…has all these signs etc. which date from the 50’s…

    Graeme: Thanks for that…I am sure I was told I had no choice but to plead guilty…the nature of the offence perhaps?

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  110. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    Thanks for that…I am sure I was told I had no choice but to plead guilty…the nature of the offence perhaps?

    Like I say, much less likely. It was certainly good advice: you probably didn’t have much of a defence :-)

    I always thought you were hard done by. There’s a specific charge in the Passports Act you could have been charged with, with a (then) much lower penalty, but the time for laying that prosecution had well passed.

    In a way, Banks was unlucky too. The police investigation pretty much came to the conclusion they could have charged Banks with a Local Electoral Act summary offence, but didn’t look into it because the time limit had passed. Had there been a longer time limit, they might have brought that charge, and Banks might just have a guilty finding on a not-very-serious, doesn’t lose his seat fine-only offence. If that had been the charge, rather than the more serious one, a DwoC would be much more likely.

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  111. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    DG. Go to the top of the class. Yes, and thats him and him.

    Inland Taranaki is a great place and where I spent a good amount of my time as a youth. Not sure if the cosi club still exists in Ohura though. Been a while since I stumbled through that town!

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  112. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Paul: No, the cosi club is about the only thing left open in town! Except the former Jail which has a café of sorts, but it was closed the day we were there…There are no shops, so the Cosi club sells essentials such as toilet paper, baked beans, and soup!

    Graeme: No, Of course I had no defence…the shock of seeing a photocopy of an application for a bogey passport I had last seen 25 years before will be with me till I die…

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  113. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @Paul Marsden

    Still there.
    Have a digital stumble through…..

    https://www.google.com/maps/@-38.842385,174.983409,3a,75y,75.79h,84.36t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sasLOyaIKlcNmKBlIJQ3_bA!2e0

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  114. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    DG: As long as it still sells beer, thats the MAIN thing! There was talk of re-opening the coal mine a few years back (inland Taranaki has huge reserves of good quality, sub bituminous coal), but I can’t see that happening in our life time.

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  115. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    Other_Andy (2,206 comments) says:

    July 6th, 2014 at 10:36 pm
    @Paul Marsden

    Cheers for that. Much appreciated. Brought back many memories, most of which I forget.

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  116. David Garrett (7,523 comments) says:

    Paul: yes, I think the rumours about the mine being re-opened have been around since it closed 20 years ago..One of the reasons I never worry about “peak oil”…they can make it out of coal, and I understand we have enough of the stuff for 1500 years or so such figure…

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  117. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    Contrary to common belief, coal is one of the most fascinating and versatile materials on the planet. Aside from its traditional uses for generating steam to produce electricity its also used for the production of jet fuel and, the manufacture of building materials, cement and fertiliser production.

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  118. DJP6-25 (1,389 comments) says:

    He deserves to be discharged without conviction.

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  119. publicwatchdog (2,796 comments) says:

    I think John Banks should be jailed. Remember Taito Philip Field? As I recall he was sentenced to six years jail? ‘One law for all’ sort of thing? (Although the charges were not identical – they were both forms of corruption – and both were MPs. Also – I have yet to hear the slightest hint of remorse from Mr ‘Nothing to hide – nothing to fear’ dodgy John Banks, who didn’t actually take the stand himself to subject himself to cross-examination? I guess having effectively put his own case in the legal blender with the audio of his Police interview being played in Court, he knew he was in a hole the size of the Grand Canyon? As the world will be watching the Auckland High Court on 1 August 2014 for this historic and unprecedented sentencing decision – I anticipate it will be VERY considered. Kind regards Penny Bright

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  120. All_on_Red (1,643 comments) says:

    “The world will be watching” bwhahahaha. You are so full of your own self importance it’s just amazing.

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  121. Mark (1,489 comments) says:

    Banks has a long history of community service whether or not you like his political views. Paki is a criminal who got off scott free because a judge dropped her moral compass.

    I see the Crown is considering appealing the decision, it will be an outrage if they dont

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  122. publicwatchdog (2,796 comments) says:

    errr…… All-on-Red aka IDIOT – you may not have been at John Banks trial – unlike myself – but I can assure you that this trial was NOT about me, it was about dodgy John Banks, and EVERY day the Court was packed with media. Kind regards Penny Bright http://www.dodgyjohnHASgone.com

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  123. All_on_Red (1,643 comments) says:

    Don’t worry Penny, there’ll be plenty of media at the sale of your house too. You can prance around there too.. Oh wait.

    The ” world” couldn’t care less about Banks being prosecuted.

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  124. unaha-closp (1,179 comments) says:

    Stats have come out this week confirming police almost never investigate Electoral Act complaints (either local or national).

    Definition of career suicide in the police is bringing a prosecution against your employer.

    Of course it doesn’t get investigated.

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  125. F E Smith (3,307 comments) says:

    Fernglas,

    Judge Cunningham has been a judge for some 7 years now.  That does not, I think, qualify as ‘newly ordained’.

    DG

    at least in most states – they are only fairly low level, probably the equivalent of the District Court

    From memory some US States have judicial elections go as high as the State Supreme Court.

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  126. Dirty Rat (383 comments) says:

    I dont see why Banks wont get off in the same lines as Paki

    Same privilege…

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  127. deadrightkev (507 comments) says:

    David, five minutes of research would confirm to you that there is NO MAORI KING!!! This guy is a Tainui figurehead.

    All you do is add unworthy gravitas to the lack of status this hopeless cultural pretender and his son seek to hold over Maoridom. Its all very tragic.

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