du Fresne on Hamas

July 21st, 2014 at 3:00 pm by David Farrar

writes:

There is a ruthless, cynical logic in what is doing in the Gaza Strip.

The constant rocket attacks on are largely futile in the sense that they do minimal damage. But Hamas knows that as long as the attacks continue, is bound to retaliate. It can hardly allow its territory and people to remain under constant threat.

Hamas’s trump card here is the Western news media. The terrorists know that the casualties of Israeli retaliation – children especially – attract international media sympathy. They make sure TV crews get footage of the funerals and have access to the hospital wards where maimed children are being treated.

They know that their most potent weapon against Israel is not rockets but international opinion. And they know that as long as the media present the conflict as one that is massively one-sided – one that is reported every day in terms of the gross imbalance in the casualty figures, almost as if it were some grotesque sporting encounter – then international opinion will regard Hamas as the wronged party.

There is a degree of truth to this. Israel has more military might so when it responds, more people get killed. Hence for those who treat it as a numbers game, Israel are wrong. They should just let 200 rockets be fired at them, and never retaliate.

I recall a good comment by someone on how the intentions are crucial, and that Israel regards every civilian killed as a mark of failure, while Hamas regards every civilian killed as a mark of success.

There have been the recent tit for tat killings. Three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and killed in June. Several militant groups (not Hamas) claimed responsibility for the killings. Hamas denied responsibility but there is some evidence that two Hamas members were involved. Hamas has actually published a kidnapping guide.  Sadly many Palestinians openly celebrated the kidnapping and killing.

Horrifically a few weeks later there was a revenge attack where a Palestinian teenager was kidnapped, beaten, and burnt alive. I’m not sure one can or should compare which murders are more horrific, but burning alive is as bad as it gets. The Israeli Police have arrested three men, one of whom has confessed.

What is interesting, and sad, is the reactions to the two despicable murders. Almost without exception the murder of the Palestinian teenager was reviled and condemned by every politician, media outlet and the public. And the perpetrators were arrested and will, if found guilty, go to prison for a long time.

This contrasts with the reaction of many Palestinians to the murder of the Israeli teenagers, where no assistance was given in solving the crime, and there was widespread support for the kidnapping and murder.

Now I understand the grievances of the Palestinians, but when you celebrate the kidnapping and murder of three teenagers, it is hard to persuade Israel that any land for peace settlement would ever be honoured or make them safer.

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71 Responses to “du Fresne on Hamas”

  1. ashishnaicker (21 comments) says:

    It’s always important to look at problems from a balanced perspective. Western media has always been quite notorious in putting an emotional twist to any situation.

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  2. thedavincimode (6,803 comments) says:

    There is a degree of truth to this.

    Actually, about 360 degrees.

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  3. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    And lest anyone be under any illusions to the contrary, Hamas’ SOLE intention is the complete and total destruction of both Israel and the Jewish people!!!

    To pretend otherwise, as many in the West (and in New Zealand BTW) seem to want to do, is to be willfully blind and to willingly play the role of a Hamas’ ‘useful idiot’…

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  4. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    “land for peace settlement”

    Who’s land?

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  5. Odakyu-sen (679 comments) says:

    Kind of reminds me of a poster I once saw…

    http://www.protestwarrior.com/new_signs.php?sign=22

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  6. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    Re: ‘Who’s land?’

    Why, the land that is held by the hated Jews of course, so that we can do once-again what we did when they returned ‘our beloved territory of Gaza’ back to us; destroy everything on it (but ONLY to remove their stench, you understand…)

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  7. Recidivist_offender (28 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  8. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    RC-O

    Tui?

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  9. SPC (5,644 comments) says:

    “I recall a good comment by someone on how the intentions are crucial, and that Israel regards every civilian killed as a mark of failure, while Hamas regards every civilian killed as a mark of success.”

    And the artillery shelling of Shejaiya district east of Gaza City?

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  10. Manolo (13,840 comments) says:

    Hamas is vile, primitive and barbaric beyond description.

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  11. DonC (9 comments) says:

    It’s fine that you say you understand the plight of the Palestinians, but you haven’t made any reference to what has made them so desperate. They have endured dispossession of the majority pf them from Palestine and the wholesale confiscation of their land by people who continue to migrate to Israel from overseas.
    Indeed your are right in that Israel’s superiority in weapons makes them able to inflict a higher rate of casualties than Hamas can inflict back. Hamas doesn’t have to provoke Israel into doing this. The record shows that it’s invariably the Israelis’ low level attacks, such as its breach of the 2012 ceasefire, that eventually lead to a Hamas rocket and then all hell breaks out.
    An ineffectual Fateh led to Hamas winning the 2006 Palestinian elections. The US and Israel were determined to overturn the result and destroy Hamas at any and every opportunity. That they are now doing.
    It is Israel which gains more from the civilian casualties. It ceaselessly blames Hamas for making it fire on civilians. It makes clear that it can’t negotiate a lasting settlement when in engaged in conflict – a ceasefire is the best that can be hoped for.
    But, when peace breaks out, Israel has no need nor is it under any pressure to seek a genuine peace, only consolidate its illegal West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements.
    Focusing on the attitude of some Palestinians is not very illuminative. Israel is notorious, especially Peres, for ‘shooting and crying’ at the result. Then, of course, there is the recent Knesset member’s statement calling on the Israeli forces to kill Palestinian mothers so they can’t have ‘snakes’.

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  12. campit (467 comments) says:

    and that Israel regards every civilian killed as a mark of failure

    Not really seeing that come across. Haven’t seen a single expression of regret at the killing of innocent men, women and children by Israeli forces from Netanyahu or the Israeli government. Haven’t seen regret at the shelling of ambulances, hospitals and schools. Haven’t seen the results of the investigation into the targeted killing of four kids playing on the beach. Its all the fault of Hamas.

    Does Hamas have a right to the self-defence of Gaza as well? Israel has a right to self-defence too, but surely Israel also has a duty to protect the lives of innocent people that it holds under siege in Gaza and now as an occupying power.

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  13. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    “Focusing on the attitude of some Palestinians is not very illuminative”

    I’ll bite DonC – what is the attitude of other Palestinians that may provide more illumination? Do they stop the bad attitude Palestinians from firing rockets or something?

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  14. Yogibear (366 comments) says:

    The Economist back in 2013 outlined the conditions for this current action, and it has more to do with Egypt than it does Israel.

    Hamas is struggling for relevance and survival. The Egyptians have cut them off, literally, to the point where they are starved of funding (the tariffs on smuggling were a large part of their budget). The Iranians are bankrolling Islamic Jihad – a rival group to Hamas.

    Hamas’ action is contrived to deliver economic survival of them as an organisation and is dependent on them showing they can achieve results for their financial backers – which is no longer Egypt.

    They have nothing to gain from peace and the combined suffering of Israel and their own people only aids their cause

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  15. SPC (5,644 comments) says:

    The shelling of Shejaiya district east of Gaza City.

    IDF

    Warn the civilians to leave and then shell.

    This means no time to get stored missiles out (or fire many off before they are destroyed) or form a defence or booby trap buildings etc.

    The risk old people and the young who need help to leave then die in the shelling.

    So some are sacrificed to reduce the risk to the IDF. Blame Hamas for using people as shields when people die.

    Hamas

    Consider a military strategy, to show will and capacity to resist or focus on getting the old and young out to safety.

    Exploit civilian deaths to pose Israel as the villain.

    ” I recall a good comment by someone on how the intentions are crucial, and that Israel regards every civilian killed as a mark of failure, while Hamas regards every civilian killed as a mark of success.”

    Israel acted knowing they would fail.

    —————————————————————————

    Israel knew what would happen.

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  16. Zapper (1,021 comments) says:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN8U-TSbfwE

    I think it was Fitz

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  17. SPC (5,644 comments) says:

    This is about the re-armament of Hamas during the Morsi period. Israel wants to run down their military stocks before any threat emerges from the other direction.

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  18. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Israel acted knowing they would fail.

    —————————————————————————

    Israel knew what would happen.

    Israel also know what will happen if Hamas get their way:

    ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it″.

    (Preamble to Hamas Charter)

    ” I recall a good comment by someone on how the intentions are crucial, …”

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  19. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    There is a degree of truth to this. Israel has more military might so when it responds, more people get killed.

    Gee, have they considered maybe investing in small arms rather than 150mm howitzers? Other countries’ armed services find far fewer civilians get killed if you use small arms rather heavy artillery.

    Du Fresne is right about the motivation involved, but it’s a point that applies to any armed resistance group. The Stalinist branches of French resistance to German occupation in WW2 had a similar policy of attempting to provoke reprisals against the local population because it would make the locals hate the Germans and make them look bad in the media. Wars are about unscrupulous people causing the murders of others, it’s a given. Which leads me to:

    …Israel regards every civilian killed as a mark of failure…

    If that were true, Israel would have the crappest, most failure-prone military I’ve seen in a long time. More accurate would be “Israel regards every Arab civilian killed as a mark of so-the-fuck-what.”

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  20. Ryan Sproull (7,205 comments) says:

    EDIT:

    Fuck it. Why bother.

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  21. davidp (3,581 comments) says:

    campit>but surely Israel also has a duty to protect the lives of innocent people

    Are you in favour of Responsibility To Protect? In general I’m in favour of governments using military power to remove regimes that abuse human rights. I don’t see why we have a responsibility to protect people from violence if they live in NZ, but not in another country (*). However, the Left seems to have demonised George Bush for advocating RTP and Obama’s do-nothing philosophy seems to be in vogue.

    (*) Assuming that something can be done.

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  22. ObligatoryMarxist (37 comments) says:

    “Almost without exception the murder of the Palestinian teenager was reviled and condemned by every politician, media outlet and the public. And the perpetrators were arrested and will, if found guilty, go to prison for a long time.”

    Yeah, no. With Israeli politicians saying that “Our enemy is the Palestinian people, and we need to kill the mothers, grandmothers and children” You have no basis to say that. The fact that half of the arrested alleged perpetrators were released the next day with no charge, while Israel have locked up hundreds of Palestinians with no charge, means you have no basis to say that.

    You argue that the Israeli military don’t want civilian casualties? How do you reconcile that with the israeli parties on hilltops, cheering and eating popcorn while children are bombed? How do you reconcile that with the ‘war room’ groups, paid by the IDF, who are going online to denigrate and insult the civilians who have been murdered by Israel’s attack?

    Here’s the thing that you don’t seem to realize about Hamas and Palestine. What the F**k are they SUPPOSED to do? Lay down and die? Leave their homes so that Israel can have an ethnically pure state? Hamas won the 2006 election because they were the only people who were at least trying to defend the Palestinian people.

    Sorry to assume, DPF, but you DON’T understand the grievances of the Palestinian people. You don’t even come close. You stay comfortable in a philosophical high horse and say that because the Palestinians resist the violence and murder heaped upon their people that they are in the wrong.

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  23. flash2846 (287 comments) says:

    Yes, all you losers who back Hamas. Let’s see, how do Palestinians treat women and girls? That’s right, women are of less value than goats and little girls get circumcised because we cannot have them growing up and enjoying sex can we.

    Go Israel; as long as Palestinians keep hating you blow the fuckers up. If they want to keep their children in harms way, it’s on them.

    All that concrete and other resources used to build terrorist tunnels could have built hospitals, malls, shopping centres, sewerage and decent housing. Palestinians made their bed, now they can lie in it.

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  24. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    BTW: A small but completely ignored detail, which might be of interest to some:

    I am advised by an impeccable and neutral source, whose veracity I don’t doubt, that even as Hamas is doing its best to kill its own civilians by using them as human shields, Israeli hospitals are treating injured women and children FROM INSIDE the Gaza ‘war zone, civilians brought ‘over the border’ in spite of what is going on around them.

    The fact that Israeli hospitals are treating their supposed ‘enemy’ will be an ‘inconvenient fact ‘ to some, as is the fact that the ‘civi’s’ are making decisions as to which medical service is the best for their needs.

    Submitted for what it may be worth…

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  25. tom hunter (4,899 comments) says:

    … Israeli hospitals are treating injured women and children FROM INSIDE the Gaza ‘war zone,

    No doubt, but I pointed out on the other “Hamas” thread that one:

    … would have thought the fact that their hospitals have been tending to wounded Syrians for the last three years would have counted as throwing off their terrorist past. But while it’s convinced the wounded Syrians (and their friends and families, judging from interviews) that the Jews aren’t quite the hobgoblins of popular Arab myth, it’s clearly not been enough for the really hardline Jew haters.

    As I also said on the other thread, nothing the Jews in Israel do will ever be enough to remove from them the labels applied by the likes of ObligatoryMarxist and his ilk – oh, except for one thing, lay down and die.

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  26. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I think you might be in danger of seeing the opinions that others have about this issue as being as polarised as those of the protagonists themselves.

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  27. Johnboy (16,722 comments) says:

    Quite right Mike. Somewhat similar to your comment….”Whose at the top of the table Johnboy!”

    Instead of “Congratulations, well done old chap, see you at the semi’s!” :)

    Dickhead! :)

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  28. Johnboy (16,722 comments) says:

    Still when you’re an old worn out PSA apparatchik I guess it’s difficult to adapt to the real world! :)

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  29. Johnboy (16,722 comments) says:

    See you at the semi’s Mr. Herd! :)

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  30. altiora (279 comments) says:

    @flash2846: that is the crux of why we should support Israel — the ONLY middle eastern liberal democracy that gives legal and civil protections to women, religious minorities, homosexuals, and political dissidents. Yet we are supposed to hate Israel as the anti-Christ.

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  31. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    “There are large clans throughout the country, in the Hebron Hills, in Samaria and among the Negev Beduin, who know of their heritage and even have family trees that document their roots. Not only that; many of them have specifically Jewish customs, and their neighbors would call them ‘the Jews,’ even though they were technically as Muslim as anyone else.” Close to nine out of 10 Palestinians in the Land of Israel – Israel proper, Judea, Samaria and Gaza – have Jewish roots. In fact, he says, the percentage in Gaza is somewhat higher than 90 percent. Misinai is far from the first researcher to have stumbled upon this historical find. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, and the first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject. In fact, Ben-Gurion believed so strongly in the idea that in 1956 he set up a task force headed by Moshe Dayan and Haim Levkov (the Palmah’s “point man” among the Arabs of Israel, he worked with Yigal Allon to set up the Trackers’ Unit, traditionally the domain of Negev Beduin), that was supposed to develop ways to “Judaize” the Beduin, teaching them something about modern Jewish life and tradition to integrate them with the Israeli people, ethnically if not religiously.

    http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews

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  32. Unity (588 comments) says:

    Will there ever be an end to it? It is well known the Arabs want Israel destroyed and wiped from the face of the earth. Israel is surrounded by people who want them gone so they have to be ever vigilant. The Arabs can lose many times, regroup and come right on back but if Israel loses once, they are gone forever. I would certainly not like to be in their shoes and part of me can understand why they can never ever give up or let their guard down. Many missiles may not be terrible lethal but the lethal one could come at any time without warning. I’m afraid I feel much sympathy for Israel. When you think about it many Palestinians lived in Jordan and elsewhere before the State of Israel came into being. The Israelies worked their butts off making the land productive. When the country started to prosper many Palestinians came (returned?) from elsewhere. Have I got this right?

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  33. SPC (5,644 comments) says:

    Unity, the answer is that few from Jordan came to live in Palestine – though 50% of those now in Jordan (since 1948) are Palestinian in origin. There were some Arabs from Palestine in Egypt and Syria who returned when the economy improved (late 19thC early 20th C, economic migrants who returned).

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  34. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Unity, unless you know how deity fits into the picture you’ve got nothing but an intractable problem. Here’s a hint: the state of Israel is secular, but Muslims and Jews both worship the deity of Abraham.

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  35. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    When you think about it many Palestinians lived in Jordan and elsewhere before the State of Israel came into being.

    When you think about it, many Israelis lived in Czechoslovakia and elsewhere before the State of Israel came into being. Outside the realm of smug, racist sentiment, this is relevant in no sense whatsoever.

    When the country started to prosper many Palestinians came (returned?) from elsewhere. Have I got this right?

    I’m not sure. Do you mean, have you got the regurgitation of Christian fundamentalist propaganda right, or have you got the facts right? The answer is different in each case.

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  36. flash2846 (287 comments) says:

    @ altiora – Agreed, well said.

    We have the left hating Israel who stand up for a lot of what the left claim to believe in; and then the left bat for the Palestinians who appose equal rites and so many other freedoms.
    Clearly it is more about hatred and jealousy than any consideration for people suffering.

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  37. Unity (588 comments) says:

    The Jews seem to have been persecuted since the year dot. I understand what is now Israel was given to the Jews inn 1948 so they would finally have their own country. I have forgotten all the Ins and Outs of it all but I did read a book about it many years ago. What is wrong with them having their own country, especially one that has a special relationship to them?

    However, many will probably say the current Israel has a special relationship to many. However, there are many Arab countries but none for the Jews, so what on earth is wrong with them having that very infertile (until they made it productive with extremely hard work) land. I would have said it was a very ‘hard’ and difficult land to live in. It’s not as if it is prime productive land.

    However, what do I know?!! I’m just telling it as I see it.

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  38. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    The media actually needs to start providing some detail on who is getting killed. The Israelis report civilians and combatants. Why can’t the UN?

    Stating how many children are killed and including up to 18 year olds is ridiculous. I bet many of those 17 and 18 years olds are more than likely to have been Hamas militants

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  39. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    it’s an intractable conflict, that’s for sure, but ocker rock legends TISM may have a possible solution

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  40. publicwatchdog (2,626 comments) says:

    FYI Kiwibloggers:

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    What does Hamas really want?

    Read the list of conditions published in the name of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and judge honestly whether there is one unjust demand among them.

    Rafah Crossing

    Palestinians from Gaza at the Egyptian-controlled Rafah border crossing last week. One of Hamas’ demands is to have internationa… / Photo by Reuters

    By Gideon Levy
    Published 13:23 20.07.14

    After we’ve said everything there is to say about Hamas: that it’s fundamentalist; that it’s undemocratic; that it’s cruel; that it does not recognize Israel; that it fires on civilians; that it’s hiding ammunition in schools and hospitals; that it did not act to protect the population of Gaza – after all that has been said, and rightly so, we should stop for a moment and listen to Hamas; we may even be permitted to put ourselves in its shoes, perhaps even to appreciate the daring and resilience of this, our bitter enemy, under harsh conditions.

    But Israel prefers to shut its ears to the demands of the other side, even when those demands are right and conform to Israel’s own interests in the long run. Israel prefers to strike Hamas without mercy and with no purpose other than revenge. This time it is particularly clear: Israel says it does not want to topple Hamas – even Israel understands that instead it will have Somalia at its gates – but it is also unwilling to listen to Hamas’ demands. Are they all “animals”?

    Let’s say that’s true. But they are there to stay, even Israel believes that’s the case, so why not listen?

    Last week 10 conditions were published in the name of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, for a 10-year cease-fire. We may doubt whether these were in fact the demands of those organizations, but they can serve as a fair basis for an agreement.
    There is not one unfounded condition among them.

    Hamas and Islamic Jihad demand freedom for Gaza. Is there a more understandable and just demand?
    There is no way to end the current cycle of killing, and not have another round in a few months, without accepting this.
    No military operation, by air, ground or sea, will bring a solution; only a basic change of attitude toward Gaza can ensure what everyone wants: quiet.

    Read the list of demands and judge honestly whether there is one unjust demand among them

    withdrawal of Israel Defense Forces troops and allowing farmers to work their land up to the fence;

    release of all prisoners from the Gilad Shalit swap who have been rearrested;

    an end to the siege and opening of the crossings

    opening of a port and airport under UN management

    expansion of the fishing zone

    international supervision of the Rafah crossing;

    an Israeli pledge to a 10-year cease-fire and closure of Gaza’s air space to Israeli aircraft;

    permits to Gaza residents to visit Jerusalem and pray at the Al-Aqsa mosque

    and an Israeli pledge not to interfere in internal Palestinian politics such as the unity government

    opening Gaza’s industrial zone.

    These conditions are civilian; the means of achieving them are military, violent and criminal. But the (bitter) truth is that when Gaza is not firing rockets at Israel, nobody cares about it. Look at the fate of the Palestinian leader who had had enough of violence. Israel did everything it could to destroy Mahmoud Abbas. The depressing conclusion? Only force works.

    The current war is a war of choice, a choice that we had. True, after Hamas started firing rockets, Israel had to respond.
    But as opposed to what Israeli propaganda tries to sell, the rockets didn’t fall out of the sky from nowhere.
    Go back a few months: the breakdown of negotiations by Israel; the war on Hamas in the West Bank following the murder of the three yeshiva students, which it is doubtful Hamas planned, including the false arrest of 500 of its activists; stopping payment of salaries to Hamas workers in Gaza and Israeli opposition to the unity government, which might have brought the organization into the political sphere. Anyone who thinks all this would simply be taken in stride must be suffering from arrogance, complacence and blindness.

    Terrifying amounts of blood are being spilled in Gaza – and in Israel to a lesser extent. It is being spilled in vain.
    Hamas is beaten down by Israel and humiliated by Egypt.
    The only chance for a real solution is exactly the opposite of the way Israel is going. A port in Gaza to export its excellent strawberries? To Israelis this sounds like heresy.
    Here once again, the preference is for (Palestinian) blood over (Palestinian) strawberries.

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

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  41. campit (467 comments) says:

    The Israelis worked their butts off making the land productive. When the country started to prosper many Palestinians came (returned?) from elsewhere. Have I got this right?

    Only if you believe the Zionist narrative. An objective look at the history of Israel offers an alternative view.

    Take Jaffa for example (paraphrased from Max Blumenthal’s excellent book Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel):

    Jaffa is one of the oldest continually inhabited places in the world. Before 1947 it had a roaring citrus export industry centred around the orchards and the port. A local cooperative called Pardes relied on both Jewish and Arab labour in a mutually beneficial arrangement in which Arabs worked for Jewish orchard owners and vice-versa.

    However, eventually Labor Zionists (who, headed by David Ben Gurion, preached a strict doctrine of Jewish-only labour) organized boycotts of Jewish businesses that employed Arabs, and attacked merchants who sold Arab goods.

    The founding of Israel in 1948 witnessed the mass expulsion of the Arab population and the virtual destruction of Jaffa.

    This is described in the 2009 documentary Jaffa, the Orange’s Clockwork, which contains:

    footage of Arabs fleeing in boats, accompanied by an interview with former Israeli commander Yosef Nachmias. He makes no apology for the brutal actions of the Zionist regime and proudly relates how a census demonstrated that of the 85,000 Arabs once living in Jaffa, only 3,000 remained.

    An aging Palestinian, Ismail Abou Shahadeh, provides an especially moving recollection. Earlier in the film, he reflects poetically on his days working in Jaffa. “You had to be in a plane to see the city. It was in the orchards. Orchards, orchards, houses and orchards everywhere”.

    Now asked about the expulsion in 1948, he struggles to contain his emotions, “I’ve spoken about this more than once—it makes me cry. Suffice it to say that 4,000 bombs were dropped on Jaffa—and it was a small place”. And after a pause, “You must wipe 1948 from your mind. Forgetting is a blessing from God”.

    Once Israel conquered Jaffa, its new Government ordered the bulldozing of 75 percent of the city’s Arab section. Under the auspices of the new Absentee Property Law, the state placed all Arab property in the hands of the Custodian of Absentee Property, which promptly redistributed it into Jewish hands under the 1953 Land Acquisition Law.

    Some commenters here really need take the time to learn a bit more history.

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  42. hj (7,033 comments) says:

    This is what the Green Party Says:

    Did you know that the Palestinian educational system and the pupil text books flaunt full anti-Semitic ideas with no recognition of the right of the Jewish people for a state on their historic home land?
    Did you know that in the Palestinian media there is glorification of violence and of suicide bombers?
    Did you know that the Arab and Palestinian media is inundated by anti-Semitic ideas and there are daily calls for jihad on Israel and calls for throwing the Jews to the sea?
    Did you know that many Palestinian originations including the PLO never dropped their master plan to demolish Israel in stages?
    Did you know that in Israel live millions of Jewish refugees and their descendants from Arab countries?
    Did you know that Arab countries pillage the private and community property of these Jewish refugees, which are worth today hundreds of billons dollars?
    Did you know about the costly effort of Israel to settle Jewish refugees from all over the world in Israel?

    http://www.green-party.org.il/public_statement.htm

    I don’t mean the hero’s who live over here (out of harms way); I mean the Israeli Green Party.

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  43. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    What I love about the right, and yeah I include you here DPF, is they say Israel is doing the right thing, but never provide an answer to what the Palestinians are meant to do. They have no country, they have no hope of a country, live in an military and economically blockaded and occupied territory, and when they raise the idea of even having a state in the West Bank (via the UN), which has been peaceful in recent times, Israel punishes them. Form a coalition to try and start negotiations with Israel, ends all talks start building on more contested land. Even when they started negotiations they do deliberately provocative manoeuvres like building on land expected to be part of a two state solution ‘to appease the right’.

    Palestinians live in an occupied country, where soldiers in the IDF think it is funny to put pictures of kids in crosshairs on Twitter, and they are just meant to accept it, keel over and take it.

    So yeah, Hamas fires rockets, much like a 6yo throws a tantrum, to try and get the world’s attention. I prefer the way it was explained in non emotional language in the Economist (link below) rather than using the words terrorist..

    http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21607895-hamas-wants-two-big-concessions-it-may-not-get-them-why-hamas-fires-those-rockets?zid=312&ah=da4ed4425e74339883d473adf5773841

    The situation is sad and tragic, but with the lack of will of Israel to grant Palestinians a glimmer of hope at the end, it is just going to repeat again and again and again.

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  44. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    This is what the Green Party Says.

    Bloody hell, a colonialist Green party – now I’ve seen everything. I’m a bit confused about this public statement – are they saying it’s the cumulative total of these points that makes it OK to murder Palestinians in their homes? Is it some plurality of them? Or is any single point on its own enough?

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  45. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Israel courts have charged three teenagers with hate crimes and removed their name suppression over the murder of an Arab youth.

    You won’t get that in the West Bank or Gaza.

    You don’t even get that in NZ

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  46. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Great idea Penny

    Open up all the tunnels, crossings, ports and airfields so Hamas can be truly armed with even longer distance rockets.

    Have you not learnt anything from the Russian involvement in the Ukraine crisis?

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  47. ObligatoryMarxist (37 comments) says:

    “Israel courts have charged three teenagers with hate crimes and removed their name suppression over the murder of an Arab youth.

    You won’t get that in the West Bank or Gaza.”

    No, in the West Bank, the Israeli forces just arrest you and put you in prison without any charge.

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  48. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Bullshit

    Three Israeli teenagers murdered and Arabs cheer, celebrate and hide those responsible

    One Arab teenager murdered and within 24 hours the criminals are arrested and already in court

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  49. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    Israel courts have charged three teenagers with hate crimes and removed their name suppression over the murder of an Arab youth.

    Well they had to do something following the beating of Tariq Abukhdeir.

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  50. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Protesters in Paris planned to march on and storm two synagogues. Because all Jews are Israelis

    Got to love Muslim logic. Can’t make a joke about the prophet but you are welcome to storm places of worship

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  51. campit (467 comments) says:

    No, in the West Bank, the Israeli forces just arrest you and put you in prison without any charge.

    But that’s only after police have handcuffed you, thrown you on the ground, stomped on you and kicked your head like a soccer ball. This is the cousin of the Palestinian teen that was murdered who, it turns out, is a US citizen. This would have gone entirely unnoticed if he wasn’t.

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  52. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    And you believe the video posted by the family and that nothing else happened outside of what was provide on this video?

    Bullshit

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  53. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    And you believe the video posted by the family and that nothing else happened outside of what was provide on this video?

    Apparently an Israeli court did when they declined a police request to hold the youth and released him on his own recognizance without charge.

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  54. Fentex (986 comments) says:

    Israel regards every civilian killed as a mark of failure

    That is patently untrue on the evidence, and by evidence I don’t mean this current clash. The Deir Yassin massacre illustrates the hollowness of the claim even if one doesn’t consider NBC’s eye witness accounts of direct attacks on boys playing on beaches and their like.

    One can pick a side and decide that Israel is only doing what’s necessary to protect Jewish heritage which history has demonstrated is endangered when entrusted to others care, but the possible integrity of that position is undermined by dishonest claims that Israelis do so as some fantastical saints.

    If one wants to argue that Palestinians are just shit out of luck in the need to protect the Israeli state and their casualties are just part of the exigencies of war why not own the argument?

    Israel has made a screw up here, the generation of people next to take power in the west do not remember WW2, do not even remember the 1970’s, all they’ve experienced of war in the levant is a dominant Israel in no existential crisis visiting disproportionate harm on Palestinians while keeping them disenfranchised and continuing to dispossess them of land.

    As power changes hands Israel is going to lose support as the visceral reactions of people will regard the things they see today and that is working against Israeli interests.

    The tremendous screw up of the U.S’s invasion of Iraq that has sown anarchy across the region is no help. One of Israel’s legitimate fears is that increased and uncontrolled traffic in weapons will see the mostly harmless Qasim rockets in Gaza supplanted by something much more dangerous, and they’d be able to make a strong case for pushing a presence into Gaza to restrict that possibility.

    But bombardment, including direct shelling from ships onto children on beaches is folly without hope of contributing to success in any tangible mission – unless that mission is all that is being achieved, the mass punishment of Gazans. In which case it also fails for as everyone ought know from observation and history, and one wonders why a Jewish state doesn’t realise this, is that people are not broken by these assaults.

    Without a political solution military action can only entrench problems if it stops short of annihilation. Without Palestinians having hope of something worthwhile there’s nothing to achieve. As it is their best hope comes from Israel undoing it’s own support.

    When next Palestinians ask for some international recognition they will likely find a warmer reception.

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  55. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    That is patently untrue on the evidence, and by evidence I don’t mean this current clash. The Deir Yassin massacre illustrates…

    That was in 1948.

    194-fucking-8. Can’t find anything from this century?

    The word is “regards”, not “regarded”. Israel today is not the same as back then. Can you say the same about the Palestinians?

    Another question. If a plague hit Palestine, would the Israelis help?

    The tremendous screw up of the U.S’s invasion of Iraq that has sown anarchy across the region is no help.

    Iraq is a mess because the US left. The region was unaffected by even that. Look somewhere else for your source of anarchy. Pro tip: consider the possibility that maybe it is due to a non-Western influence.

    When next Palestinians ask for some international recognition they will likely find a warmer reception.

    No, they wont. Because Hamas. Because ISIS. Because of militant mullahs in extremist mosques in increasingly atheist societies.

    “Death to Israel!” is a cause of the “Death to America!” and the “Death to the West!” crowd. Inextricably linked.

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  56. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    Apparently an Israeli court did when they declined a police request to hold the youth and released him on his own recognizance without charge.

    Which court was that again?

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  57. Fentex (986 comments) says:

    That was in 1948.

    194-fucking-8. Can’t find anything from this century?

    Yes, but it isn’t necessary, the point is made. People care about the past and no one gets to tell others to forget injuries against them. Israelis no more forget injuries against them.

    .Israel today is not the same as back then. Can you say the same about the Palestinians?

    Israelis, from polls among it’s population, dislike Palestinians more now than in the past. Apparently the younger generation of Israelis are accepting the rhetoric of their government and hardening their attitudes.

    Right now Israel is killing Palestinians at a higher rate than they have in some time so asking people to observe now as Israel bombards a concentration of people rather than some point in the past does not help an argument they’re careful about what they target.

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  58. Scott1 (552 comments) says:

    Jeff83,

    “an answer to what the Palestinians are meant to do.”

    The Palestinians are meant to
    1) exert some command and control over their own soldiers and thereby stop randomly shooting rockets.
    2) have an achievable negotiation position – and negotiate.

    I know it is too much to ask – but it shouldn’t be.

    and it isn’t refuted by the argument “but the Israelis are evil… if they are evil why can’t I be even more evil?”

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  59. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Can’t find anything from this century?

    How about this week? No shortage of footage of Israeli heavy artillery bombarding residential areas – if every civilian death’s a failure, this has to be the biggest military failure of recent times.

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  60. UrbanNeocolonialist (290 comments) says:

    Most of the Arab world has no time for Palestinians, other than as an outlet for Islamic jingoism: EG the Kuwaitis murdered 4000 and expelled 3-400000 of them after the gulf war, but it was muslim on muslim and so not of interest to western media:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_expulsion_from_Kuwait

    Muslims truly hate the Jewish (and the west) because they are so deeply ashamed of how backwards and unsuccessful their own culture is in comparison. It is jealousy similar to christian hatred of successful jews throughout Europe up into the middle of the 20th century. The corrupt, misogynistic and tribal Arab/Persian culture is just no match in terms of success for western or jewish values. This is most starkly embodied by Israel that is now one of richest countries in world even though it started from nearly nothing 65 years ago, and achieved it all without oil wealth and with belligerent neighbours (though admittedly with some US financial support). Even with their neighbours vast numerical, financial and territorial advantages they have always managed to overcome them in every conflict.

    The palestinians are playing an interesting game with out of control breeding, their numbers have exploded by 10x since WWII (500k=>5million). That will inevitably lead to massive political upheaval or widespread death. None of their Muslim neighbours will want to let them in. And time is not on their side. In another 20-30 years excess oil money will run out, so the Palestinians will lose backing as all of their current financiers stop buying ferraris and start to worry about how to feed themselves, their neighbours will then lose any interest in their welfare, and will not be willing to welcome them as refugees.

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  61. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    …and that Israel regards every civilian killed as a mark of failure,…

    Deaths as Israeli shells hit Gaza hospital

    Deadly flechette shells ‘used by Israeli military in Gaza Strip’

    Massacre in Shujaiya: Dozens killed as Israel shells eastern Gaza City

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  62. Yoza (1,879 comments) says:

    UrbanNeocolonialist (177 comments) says:
    July 22nd, 2014 at 6:58 am

    In another 20-30 years excess oil money will run out,…

    …the US will no longer regard Israel as a strategic asset and, along with its Western European lackeys, will cease funding the slaughter of the Palestinians.

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  63. SPC (5,644 comments) says:

    Yoza, the new Tamar gas field will earn Israel more than $3B per annum. Israel is now economically self sufficient – at the current level of military spending.

    The money to Israel is just a match for the money to Egypt and Jordan. If the US cuts off one they would both.

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  64. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    Which court was that again?

    The Court of First Instances in Jerusalem.

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  65. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    Israel courts have charged three teenagers with hate crimes and removed their name suppression over the murder of an Arab youth.

    The only one named was 29 year old Yosef Chaim Ben-David, the other two have had their identity suppressed.

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  66. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    How about this week? No shortage of footage of Israeli heavy artillery bombarding residential areas – if every civilian death’s a failure, this has to be the biggest military failure of recent times.

    And by Hamas’s calculus, they are waging the most successful campaign in years.

    Israeli scoring:
    Hamas weapons +1
    Hamas fighters +1
    Israeli forces -1
    Israeli non-combatants -1
    Palestinian non-combatants -1

    Hamas scoring:
    Hamas weapons -1
    Hamas fighters -1
    Israeli forces +1
    Israeli non-combatants +1
    Palestinian non-combatants +1
    Lefties in NZ supporting them no matter what they do because Jews and international law and stuff +1

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  67. flipper (4,084 comments) says:

    Yoza (1,511 comments) says:

    July 22nd, 2014 at 7:47 am

    UrbanNeocolonialist (177 comments) says:
    July 22nd, 2014 at 6:58 am

    In another 20-30 years excess oil money will run out,…
    *****

    Excess oil money may run out, and pigs might fly.

    BP, in the Corporate Annual report, estimates current (the end of 2013) world KNOWN reserves of oil at many TRILLIONS of barrels, and enough on current and projected expanded rates of consumption to last for “at least another 51 (fifty one) years.

    And that is before new and developing technologies are employed.

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  68. Fentex (986 comments) says:

    Most of the Arab world has no time for Palestinians, other than as an outlet for Islamic jingoism

    This is quite right, Palestinians are a punching bag and an excuse for totalitarian authority to turn hate more properly aimed at them outwards. This is something I think they know, and a reason I suspect (though I know it sounds impossible to most) they could be convinced to accept citizenship in a greater Israel.

    Israel has at times considered the idea, but usually baulked at the attendant demand for a right of return for every Palestinian and their descendants who fled in the past. I have day dreams a compromise is possible.

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  69. UrbanNeocolonialist (290 comments) says:

    Flipper; I am not disputing that there are vast, even growing recoverable oil reserves, but much of middle east is already past their production peak and middle eastern populations are growing rapidly (out of control breeding), and are not economically productive – surviving only on money sucked out of ground, and population increase combined with reducing oil receipts will inevitably create more internal pressure on where to spend – ultimately resulting in war, they are on a trajectory back to destitution. Eg check one estimate for Saudi Arabia, 10-15 years to crunch:
    http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/clip_image016.gif

    Also, we have new technologies that are likely to supplant a lot of oil demand. They are not there yet, but shale gas, battery cars, nuclear growth, cheaper solar, possibly even fusion (I know the perpetual 50 years-away joke but thing have changed with 4 companies exploring competing approaches General Fusion, Helion Energy, Tri-Alpha and Polywell give true hope of viable fusion within 5-10 years, and will be applicable to synthetic hydrocarbon fuel production at ultimately about $50/barrel, ships and maybe planes).

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  70. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    One question that no-one has answered for me –

    If Israel is as bad as Hamas et al would have you believe then why do the “Palestinians” need to give so many fake pics and videos to the MSM?

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  71. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    Interesting links here –
    http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2010/01/do-palestinian-people-exist.html

    Quote – “In the PLO’s original founding Charter (or Covenant), Article 24 states: “this Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the west Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, in the Gaza Strip or the Himmah area.” For Arafat, “Palestine” was not the west Bank or the Gaza Strip, which after 1948 belonged to other Arab states. The only “homeland” for the PLO in 1964 was the State of Israel.

    However, in response to the Six-Day war and Arafat’s mentoring by the Soviets and their allies, the PLO revised its Charter on July 17, 1968, to remove the language of Article 24, thereby newly asserting a “Palestinian” claim of sovereignty to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

    Part of the reframing of the conflict, along with adopting the identity of an “oppressed people” and “victim of colonialism,” then, was the creation, ex nihilo, of “historic Palestine” and the ancient “Palestinian people” who had lived in their “homeland” from “time immemorial,” who could trace their “heritage” back to the Canaanites, who were forced from their homeland by the Zionists, and who had the inalienable right granted by international law and universal justice to use terror to reclaim their national identity and political self-determination.

    That this was a political confection was, perhaps inadvertently, revealed to the West by Zahir Muhse’in, a member of the PLO Executive Committee, in a 1977 interview with the Amsterdam-based newspaper Trouw:

    “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.”

    This link is interesting too –
    “The Communist Roots of Palestinian Terror” –
    http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=29207

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