General Debate 20 July 2014

July 20th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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280 Responses to “General Debate 20 July 2014”

  1. campit (467 comments) says:

    Israel must attack Gaza even more mercilessly, expel the population and resettle the territory with Jews, the deputy speaker of Israel’s parliament, the Knesset, has said.

    Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews.

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  2. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Go Israel!
    Turn Gaza to rubble!!

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  3. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    Rodney Hide’s brave campaign continues.

    Rodney Hide: Rape culture protects predators

    I have reluctantly concluded that New Zealand does suffer a rape culture.

    It’s not an “all men are rapists” and “I am sorry for being a man” type of thing. Rather, it’s the way men can commit sex crimes and get away with it. The system works to protect the privileged and powerful.

    While I’ve said a number of times that I thing ‘rape culture’ is an overly emotive term and can be counter productive to having serious discussion where it’s needed – offence at the term is often used as an excuse to divert debate – on such a serious issue it’s good to see Rodney being prepared to put this out there and challenge the ‘old boy’s club’ that keeps defending and protecting sexual predators.

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  4. lilman (959 comments) says:

    Bomb the shit out of them and when they want to TALK instead of being terrorists sit down and discuss,until then hit them hard.

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  5. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    What the hell is wrong with the World?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11295556

    I mean- I know it’s not ‘fashionable’ to be a White male right now but Marvel Comics rewriting Thor with the God of Thunder as a woman??
    Are White males that repugnant that they must now be effectively banished from all Literature? What next? History??

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  6. Yvette (2,821 comments) says:

    “A lot of MPs are really f….. off about it,” he said. “They are all working hard up and down the country, and f…… Cunliffe is on holiday …
    The insider believed up to 20 of the 33 Labour MPs were deeply unhappy with Cunliffe’s leadership, but had accepted that an attempt to dump him this late in the term would backfire.”
    – a senior party insider has told the Sunday Star-Times.

    What personally irks me, is that this is the same situation as last Election – Labour goes into it with a Leader they will immediately dump, but with even greater vehemence – BUT this is after all they have done in Opposition, is change bloody leaders downhill to where they now are.

    As an Opposition they have been fucking useless – let alone doing what they are payed for, which is to monitor Government – they can’t even get their own basic internal party matters right.

    Labour should refund taxpayers for such an utterly useless performance this term.
    Merde

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  7. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (22,674 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 8:04 am

    I am not quite sure what other term would cover the phenomena. Given that a culture can be defined as the shared characteristics of a particular group, including shared ideas, then the concept seems to cover the issue.

    There are a large group of New Zealanders, of both sexes, that believe ‘rape’ was not always the fault of the perpetrator and that, under some conditions, the victim should just write the experience off. Blaming the clothing, the venue, or whatever, this type of thinking filters through to the courts, who react by allowing the perpetrators to remain anonymous. Whilst in many situations this is necessary to protect the identity of the victim, and frequently the family of the offender, it is also done to protect the offender’s reputation etc.

    As long as we make excuses for rape – people will be allowed to escape full responsibility for it.

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  8. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    And once you are finished blowing the Terrorists to smithereens Israel if you could turn your attention to their supporters?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11296381

    New Zealand would be greatly appreciative..

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  9. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  10. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    As long as we make excuses for rape – people will be allowed to escape full responsibility for it.

    Unfortunately yes. The term can case negative reactions but I haven’t seen another reasonable way of labelling it.

    It takes a brave man to step up and confront this knowing how brutal the defenders of ‘rape culture can be.

    If the term ‘rape culture’ offends some men then too bad. The lack of will to address a widespread and insidious problem in our society, and the active protection of sexual predators, is far more offensive.

    Not all men are responsible for the crimes but all men should take responsibility for the problems they cause. The actions of sexual predators and the extensive negative effects impacts on the reputation of all men and casts a shadow of blame over all men, whether decent men like it or not.

    Much more has to be done to deal to this, and men have to stand up and do the dealing rather than ducking for cover.

    More men like Rodney have to take a brave and bold step up.

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  11. lilman (959 comments) says:

    I don’t rape.
    I never will rape.
    As far as I know NONE f my mates do or hopefully wont.
    If I knew that a mate or a brother was involved with a rape I would be down to the local police station to tell them all I knew.

    I don’t have or live within a rape culture.

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  12. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (22,675 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 8:19 am

    I totally agree Pete, good on Rodney for speaking out.
    Cunliffe, whilst misfiring with his actions, was right about one thing, it is men that can make a big difference here.

    As fathers, and the male role models, it is to them the younger generation of males will look. I remember my sons being told by their Dad that if they have any doubts, even if the girl hasn’t said no, but seems reluctant in any way – don’t go there!

    Having said that – it is also up to mothers to teach their daughters how to protect themselves, and part of that is not to ‘tease’ a guy or play games, and put themselves in harms way.

    The problem often is that things are said as a joke, and most know not to take them seriously, however there are always some in society that are unbalanced enough to do that and take ‘jokes’ as permission to do whatever they feel like doing.

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  13. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    I don’t have or live within a rape culture.

    You shouldn’t have to. Neither should any man. Or any woman. Or any child.

    But the sad fact is we do. If we want that to change we have to do more to confront it and deal with it.

    Being a non-rapist doesn’t excuse you from taking joint responsibility. The problem needs a societal change, and for too long too many men have said “not me, not my problem”. It’s a problem for all of us, so we all need to address it.

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  14. Chuck Bird (4,887 comments) says:

    PG: I gave you a thumbs up yesterday and another today.

    This other article may be of interest to some.

    Indecent act man calls in lawyers
    5:00 AM Sunday Jul 20, 2014

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/07/general_debate_20_july_2014.html#comments

    The guy is an aggressive fool. He complains he is unfairly targeted because he is a household name.

    Maybe the fact that he is a household name made it easier for him to offend and made some victim reluctant to come forward.

    The fact he was a household name would have been the main reason he got name suppression. Being a member of the old boys club may have been another.

    The left complain about inequality. They are referring to wealth. I and many others I believe are concerned about inequality of a different sort. That is inequality before the law.

    I would bet every competent MP know this guys name. I know of at least one MP who is seriously considering naming him in Parliament.

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  15. lilman (959 comments) says:

    SORRY Pete your doing a Cunliffe.
    Next it will be” I live in a drug dependant society”.
    You and others are pissing and moaning about the next crisis,live your life,when bad stuff happens be a man and stand up.

    “Crisis” is what it is,a reason to vent and exercise demons by people who have no balls.

    As for it being my responsibility,what a load of shit.

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  16. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    If politics were a running race say of marathon length, Key is 3 kms in the lead with 10 kms to go.

    Key can afford to stop off and grab a drink and stretch out his legs for a moment or two, not for long however because he knows that he is being chased.

    Cunliffe on the otherhand is well behind and knows he needs to run his best ever finish AND needs the race leader to stumble AND probably a bunch of other improbable events to go his way as well.

    So Cunliffe (on the advice of his chief of staff) decides to stop off for a cup of tea and think about this before resuming his race. No need to hurry afterall. :-)

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  17. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    I know it sounds a bit ‘far out’ but I think a lot of the issues regarding rape come from the modern belief that we have to regard everyone as the ‘same’.

    As I keep saying, males and females are not the same. We are very different, not just physically, but also emotionally and sexually. Whilst I’m sure there are some women who can and do have sex just for the physical pleasure, for the large majority of women they feel very differently about it, compared to males (there are many research reports that support that).

    Both sexes need to be taught those differences. By appreciating the difference, they might be able to make more of a connection when it comes to sexual activity. We are not the same, but as long as we keep being told to think we are, we are always going to mis-read the signals from each other. It is not equality we need, it is equity. We will never be equal – because we are too different (at this stage in our evolution).

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  18. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Minto says the Mana Party wants the Israeli embassy closed.

    This is suggestive of not wanting there to be an Israeli state, no wonder their support for those who refuse to recognise the state and who fire missiles at it.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11296381

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  19. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    As for it being my responsibility,what a load of shit.

    That’s a shit cop out.

    How our society functions effects all of us and is the responsibility of all of us. Ducking for cover and making excuses leaves problems as they are, problems.

    I think Cunliffe made a mistake apologising as he did, but he was right saying that men need to step up and address the problems of violence and sexual predation, the tentacles of which reach right through our society.

    No one is immune from the effects (especially the flow on effects), they are widespread and major.

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  20. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    lilman
    Sooo
    Not one pf your mates has ever plied a woman with piss just so she gets too drunk to say no
    Not one has ever used piss as a “leg opener”
    To drugged to resist due to the deliberate actions of a male is rape.

    Had an interesting discussion with the misses last week

    In her 15 years as a school councilor dealing with the aftermath of rape is almost a weekly situation. She has seen only four cases taken to the police resulting in a charge. Only one of those ended with a conviction in court and the girl eventually lost after an appeal and retrial.
    Kids find it extremely difficult to go though the years of torment that going to court will involve
    Make a complaint at sixteen and you could still be going to hearings etc at twenty. It will take six months for the police to even start the investigation more than a year for the first court proceedings meanwhile you family is destroyed and they blame you. The misses finds it extremely hard to recommend the justice system for kids knowing what it will entitle for them, its effects on their future and the probable outcome.

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  21. G152 (342 comments) says:

    “Mussie” Minto comic Caliph is a sad aging nasty rabid racist.
    Time for his paymasters to let him go

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  22. stever (26 comments) says:

    The sooner the Mark Taylor’s of this world are killed the better . And why would the NZ Herald even give this fool any publicity .

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  23. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  24. Yvette (2,821 comments) says:

    In a similar logic to “How does a rumour get around, when it hasn’t a leg to stand”, how do we have a “rape culture” when judges won’t allow us to know who in society is doing it?
    Just wondering

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  25. duggledog (1,558 comments) says:

    Maybe Cunliffe’s gone skiing so he can Come Down From The Mountain like a biblical prophet?

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  26. Nookin (3,344 comments) says:

    Judith @ 8.18.
    I suggest to read the post again. The criticism of Cunliffe came not from ‘around here’ but from a senior labour insider who also disclosed that Cunliffe’s work ethic would be the subject of a caucus discussion. It would seem that there are some who are working their little butts off (Goff, King et al) and who seem to think that the leader may not be pulling his weight. That is hardly a matter for which KB can be slagged over.

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  27. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    PG, if you were to call Rodney Hyde a brave man over at Russell Brown’s blog, you’d be the subject of some ridicule, to put it mildly. And if you were to attempt to justify tour opinions you’d be subjected to personal attacks from the resident mob. Then tosspot Russell would ban you.

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  28. kowtow (8,487 comments) says:

    Pete George,Grief et al

    What opinion does youse have of Mary Whitehouse?

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  29. Akaroa (557 comments) says:

    Sigh! Its ‘Rape this” and “Rape that” – any interaction with a female these days seems destined to be classified as ‘rape’ by some steely-eyed, dyed-in-the-wool feminist out there.

    Oh for the days of yesteryear when – (and yes, for both boys and girls) – the benchmark of successful, harmonious interaction in some sectors of society was often whether intercourse took place.

    And, of course, any decent female worth her salt – and conscious of her reputation – would in some cases make a token objection.
    Just to preserve that reputation and to show that she wasn’t ‘easy’. (“Just for you”)

    Now, I know that will be horrifying and scandalous to some observers today – but -(and how often do i say this these days!!) – that was then, this is now!

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  30. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    I see those dirty ruskies have been desecrating the MH crash site. Looting, stealing valuables,credit cards, obstructing investigators, covering up evidence. Truly sickening. What’s wrong with these people?

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  31. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    All five polls now have Labour polling in the 20’s. Is that the first time that’s happened?

    And it’s every man and woman for themselves now as the SS Labour leaks like a sieve…

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/07/leaking-like-sieve.html

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  32. flipper (4,067 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird (4,642 comments) says:

    July 20th, 2014 at 8:28 am
    ****

    Household name????

    Once, most certainly. But no longer, and not so for many years.
    The “household name” label in 2014 is prurient media hype, which while attributed to the person in question, does not appear in any public statement that I have seen.

    If the victim, or Rodney, or anyone (other than Derran Hynch) feels so strongly about the matter, she/he should say “bugger the Court” and name the person.

    Of course there will be consequences, but a public subscription would promptly make good any fine, and apart from the legal industrial complex, most folk will probably applaud :-)

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  33. HB (321 comments) says:

    I don’t get the justification for name suppression being about ‘protecting’ the offender? Shouldn’t they have to face the consequences of their actions. I think Rodney Hide has really good points in the NZH today

    “And there’s our rape culture. Our system protects the offender and puts women at risk.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11296242

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  34. kowtow (8,487 comments) says:

    Dean papa

    What big brave men Hamas are,hiding behind women and children and civilian infrastructure to carry out their Koranic war crimes.

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  35. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    About the same I had for Patricia Maureen Bartlett.

    The mythical time back when you couldn’t be charged with raping your wife But a homosexual act in private between consenting adults was a jail able offense. Yet if you were a catholic priest and the other person was a child it was considered not illegal act to commit sodomy .
    The documented catholic church”s sexual corruption of generations of kids makes the likes of outhouse and Bartlet a joke Kowtow.

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  36. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    couldn’t agree with you more, kowtow. And you point is what?

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  37. ex-golfer (161 comments) says:

    Best quote I have heard:

    Israel uses missiles to protect & defend its citizens.
    Hamas uses its citizens to protect its missiles.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/unrwa-investigating-20-rockets-empty-gaza-school-palestinian

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  38. FeralScrote (218 comments) says:

    Perhaps you would like to explain to us all ,Pete how you personally ,are responsible for the rapes that occur in this country and while you are at it, are you responsible for all (white male) drunk drivers,children living in poverty,animal abuse and whatever other general crimes you feel responsible for?
    Blaming culture/society is nothing other than the feelgood bullshit the lefties indulge in ,where they can blame everyone and no-one in their endless gab fests.

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  39. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    FeralScrote – I’m not personally responsible and have never claimed to be. I’m talking about joint male and joint societal responsibility which is quite different.

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  40. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Oh deary me. Looks like cunners really is in a spot of bother over his holiday-making.

    Never mind.

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  41. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock (10,080 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 9:04 am
    All five polls now have Labour polling in the 20′s. Is that the first time that’s happened?

    Oh no, its not the first time it’s happened, I’m sure Labour has been in the 20’s before, and others have experienced the same. In 2002 National polled at 21% in the only poll that really mattered that year. Actually to be honest, it was 20.93% so barely in the 20’s!

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  42. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    How about taking responsibility for paedophilia? Statistically, almost all paedophiles are male.

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  43. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    What’s wrong with these people?

    They ran out of fun things to do in Serbia.

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  44. flipper (4,067 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock (10,080 comments) says:

    July 20th, 2014 at 9:04 am

    All five polls now have Labour polling in the 20′
    ******

    The gentlemen on the skiing holiday and the one at his Hawaii home, are vastly different.

    One is in the shitter , and the other is riding a magnificent wave, headed for a soft sandy beach…….

    Of course the can may be cleaned, and the surfer may crash.

    But right now that seems unlikely.

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  45. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Dean Papa (678 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 9:21 am

    These are societal issues and unless everyone in society takes some responsibility for seeing that measures are taken to decrease or stop them, they will continue.

    Do you wish to wait until it happens to someone you love, to make it your concern and therefore your responsibility to do something about it?

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  46. wiseowl (895 comments) says:

    Mike Williams on Q+A. ‘I support Cunliffe because I am from the business community, not a union person’.

    hahahahahah.

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  47. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    It must be hard for Williams to comment on a panel like that when his party looks so dire.

    He defended them polling “just under” their record low election result.

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  48. FeralScrote (218 comments) says:

    Ok Pete, explain how I am responsible for this mythical societal responsibility,but keep in mind ,I personally ,have never raised a hand to a female ever( as a child or an adult,just the way I was raised).
    I would argue the point,seeing as the vast majority of males do not go around raping ,murdering or pillaging,we have a cultural and societal code of civilised responsibility.

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  49. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    I think Cunliffe taking some time out and having a good think is the perfect thing to do in his situation. Having made one gaff after the other, it is probably the most responsible thing he can do is to take the time to think seriously about where he is going to from here. In fact, I don’t think he should have done anything but what he is doing – it was seriously needed.

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  50. hj (7,023 comments) says:

    JS Mill

    “The honor…of the average man is that he is capable of following [the] initiative…of a more highly gifted…one or few”.

    p. 66 On Liberty

    Can’t wait to listen to Wayne Brittendon’s weekly sermon: Israel and Gaza.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday

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  51. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    That’s a very good point you raise Judith. In fact, over at Russell Brown’s blog I did make the point that it was not advisable for women to walk alone at night through unlit parks. For this I was accused of being an apologist for rape, a victim blamer (or slut-shaming I believe is the buzz-word) and that I was part of this so called rape culture. Tosspot Russell then banned me.

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  52. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ FeralScrote (48 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 9:30 am

    Unfortunately that civilised code doesn’t stop all in society. We are only as strong as our weakest link, and as long as that link continues to get the wrong sort of messages from the rest in society, they will continue to regard it as permission and to offend like they do.

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  53. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    **shock**

    I saw a Labour Party board with David Cunliffes face on it!

    **HORROR! SHAME!!**

    This Labour Party board was in the front yard of people who live in the same street as me!

    :-)

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  54. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    “European” infiltrators: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606036

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  55. stever (26 comments) says:

    wiseowl

    I heard that too. I almost spat my eggs on toast out . Still he nearly did me a favour , if it landed in my coffee it would have saved me the effort of chewing it

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  56. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Dean Papa (679 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 9:35 am

    Good point. The walking around in the dark is a strange argument. Of course we should be able to do it – but ‘should’ we?
    Of course not – even a male walking around in the dark is not a sensible move. In the dark we cannot see who or what is out there, and as we all know there are many dangers, and not just rapists wanting to hurt/rob etc.

    By very nature alone we should know not to venture too far from the cave at night – however socialisation is slowly eroding all our natural security mechanisms – we are no longer as vigilent as we used to be – we wander round in the dark, we fly planes over war zones – we seem to have forgotten or lost the skills that were once deemed necessary to survival – perhaps that was an overestimation of our secure state and those skills are still as important as they used to be.

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  57. Nostalgia-NZ (5,211 comments) says:

    Reports that Labour would rise 13% in the polls if Shearer led them into the election. Must be tempting, but I suspect the ‘team’ is so introverted at the moment any bold or decisive moves are out of the question. It could be worth a go however even if the conservative view might be that in the event of the change the ‘promised’ 13% may not materialise. Just wondering if Cunliffe would have the constitution to step aside now – if the signs are correct that it would lift their popularity. Seems an odd situation to have to consider this close in – but a favourable aspect is that the electorate knows Shearer and, at least according to the poll, he is the preferred choice. Whatever the result Cunliffe has most recently quickly taken the look of yesterday’s man.

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  58. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    @ Judith (9.21) – I was referring to the Labour Party!

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  59. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    Lol, Mike Williams (Q+A) doesn’t seem to like Matthew Hooten. I don’t think he turned around to look at him once, even in response to a comment.

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  60. wiseowl (895 comments) says:

    Judith I think you should apologise.

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  61. Left Right and Centre (2,979 comments) says:

    (1)

    All five polls now have Labour polling in the 20′s. Is that the first time that’s happened?

    Is it at an historically low level adjusting for MMP and the Greens ?

    (2) Cunliffe or Shearer ? That’s just the butcher shop window dressing. The bigger problem is all the meat’s off.

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  62. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Keeping Stock (10,081 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 9:48 am

    ;-) Yeah, I knew that, but as Norm said – never let a chance go by! :P

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  63. hj (7,023 comments) says:

    After Wayne Brittendon’s speel wallace has an interview with someone who (just by coincidence) agrees with Wayne!

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  64. Yvette (2,821 comments) says:

    I can think of only two really “prominent” persons in the area which media have reported has a sex offender but may not name him.
    So it may be one, or the other, or completely another.

    As well as being very unjust to “prominent” persons who are NOT the perpetrator, name suppression to protect the criminal must inflate the supposed “rape culture”, there being several potential offenders now instead of defining the one to avoid.

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  65. stephieboy (3,091 comments) says:

    One things is for sure Hamas derive great propaganda value from their civilian casualties especially those of children and women.I have no doubts that much of those casualties are deliberate . Gaza is naturally heavily built up so its very, very difficult for the Israelis aim at purely military targets when Hamas operates among the civilian population. it’s deliberate.
    I believe they simply don’t care and feel they achieve their aims with the protests in France , here and elsewhere . They don’t care.? Well one thing is for sure no effort are made by Hamas made to provide air raid or bomb shelters or other protective measures for civilians .

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  66. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Griff
    A few of my friends have teenage boys and it’s quite clear that more than a few teenage girls today are right into drinking and are very sexually aggressive.
    In our generation I think the saying ” candy is dandy but liquor is quicker” probably was applied a bit but today it would seem there is no need. The girls do it themselves .
    Look I am sure that situations do get out of hand and things may go to far but make no mistake girls are very much the instigators. I don’t know why but that’s how it seems to be.
    My friends also counsel their sons to be very careful as they know it can be very easy to be accused of taking advantage and also because Chlamydia is rampant!

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  67. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ wiseowl (742 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 9:50 am
    “Judith I think you should apologise.”

    Which particular thing would you like me to apologise for?

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  68. FeralScrote (218 comments) says:

    Unfortunately Judith ,NZ “society”as it is ,takes the blame off those responsible for committing crime and puts it on those who are not responsible ,it is just the way the legal system and the bleeding hearts operate because holding criminals personally responsible for their actions is too hard.
    Far easier to blame “society” and feel good about yourself than actually face reality.

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  69. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Akaroa (530 comments) says:

    July 20th, 2014 at 8:58 am

    “And, of course, any decent female worth her salt – and conscious of her reputation – would in some cases make a token objection. Just to preserve that reputation and to show that she wasn’t ‘easy’. (“Just for you”)

    ————————————————————————————————-

    And the only way to tell whether she thought she had been raped by you was if she would not be alone with you socially ever again.

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  70. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ FeralScrote (49 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 9:56 am

    The responsibility comes from ALL to do something about it – not for the actual crime in the first place. That was the point I was trying to make, albeit badly if you didn’t get that message.

    Whether we take that responsibility by having legislation changed, changing the way we talk about the issue, or even the advice we give our children – the fact remains until we stand up for the greater good, and make changes, nothing will change. There will always be people in society who do not know how to act. If we don’t take the responsibility of teaching them, by either punishment or changing legislation or by our own example, then we really have no right to complain – to keep doing the same thing and expect different results is insanity.

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  71. stephieboy (3,091 comments) says:

    Evidence of Hama human shields,? Here’s but one . Yes it’s the Jerusalem Post but still a media outlet that has the capacity and the right to and does report both the good and bad from both sides of the conflict.

    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Media-death-count-encourages-Hamas-to-use-human-s

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  72. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    The recent indecent act case raises the issue of grooming. Thus a danger to name suppression (as the former AB involved is old enough to be on super there is no real livelihood issue).

    Do some men become social friends of married couples and then at a later time make a grope for the women when alone with her – based on the idea that social friends and in particular married women will keep it to themselves.

    If she does not tell her partner, and social contact continues and she is unable to prevent being alone with him he tries again.

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  73. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  74. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ SPC (5,282 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 10:03 am

    Many women don’t tell because all too often the male response is firstly ‘what did you do to let him think you were willing’?

    I’m sure for many it is probably a question asked to try and sort out what happened, but either way it makes the female feel that she must have done something wrong. Rape victims are frequently hounded by guilt that they must have in some way contributed to what happened. That they are too blame – which is a mindset that prevents many from reporting the attack – this is especially so with women (and some males) who are victims of sexual assault in the form of ‘groping’ etc.

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  75. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    I would dearly have loved to get amongst that rabble unionised rent-a-mouth load of shit demonstrating yesterday. What a line-up of NZ’s most treasonous filth, only about 1% being employed, and then they would be leeching public servants. Along with their mate Taylor, I would like to see them rot in hell, and keep their effen hands off my hard-earned taxes. Minto is no better than the filthy fat felon, and one has to think Bradford has a bit of class after all.

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  76. wiseowl (895 comments) says:

    Just for being here Judith.

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  77. Return To Sender (14 comments) says:

    It’s all very simple, don’t start the mower if you’re not going to cut the grass

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  78. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    Basil has an important message for uglytruth

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  79. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ wiseowl (743 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 10:09 am

    If I didn’t want to be here Wiseowl, I wouldn’t – I’m not a masochist. The conversation is stimulating. I may not agree with the majority, but I do like reading their viewpoints and learning how and what intelligent people think about topical issues. Regardless of not agreeing with many of them, most of the people here are interesting to read.

    I’m not the least bit sorry I’m here – however it appears you might be.

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  80. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Akaroa, perhaps you had better define what token objection meant – because acknowledging that this objection was made before intercourse took place would be damning evidence against a defendant in a court case.

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  81. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Not that I give a rodent’s nethers about hoomin wights, but kudos to John Minto & the call to close the Israeli embassy in Wellington.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/07/20/5000-strong-march-calls-for-campaign-to-close-israeli-embassy/

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  82. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    UT: What about getting rid of the ragheads and mosques all around NZ. That is where the trouble will eventuate.

    [DPF: 20 demerits and that's now 100 so a two week holiday]

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  83. RF (1,399 comments) says:

    Herald Digipoll is out this morning with more bad news for Labour.

    National – 54.9%.

    Labour – 26.5%.

    Preferred PM:

    Key – 73.3%. Cunliffe – 10.5%

    I have not seen the other results.

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  84. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Had a measure of success in predicting the future have you, igm?

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  85. FeralScrote (218 comments) says:

    Uglytruth,does your tinfoilhat hat come dedazzled and does it have a little propeller on top?
    Cos` dude ,that 10.04 post was truly magnificent in the annals of conspiracy bullshit…..kudos to you.

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  86. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    Herald poll is near perfection.

    Nats up, Labour down, Greens down below 10%, NZF below 5%,
    Cun*liffe at 10% as prefered PM.

    Awesome, great to see those labour Party policies really getting traction with the electorate!

    Quite outstanding really that only one third of those retarded enough to still back Labour like Cun*liffe enough to want him as PM.

    He really is David No Mates Cun*liffe.

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  87. Nukuleka (327 comments) says:

    There seems to be some kind of implication being made, by Pete George and other of like mind, that New Zealand has a ‘rape culture’ that is not to be found to such an extent in other countries such as Australia, the UK, the USA and so on and that therefore women are more vulnerable here than in such overseas countries. Is this in fact what is being suggested and if so what is the basis for this assertion? Evidence please.

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  88. Chuck Bird (4,887 comments) says:

    If the victim, or Rodney, or anyone (other than Derran Hynch) feels so strongly about the matter, she/he should say “bugger the Court” and name the person.

    @flipper

    You are right about household name but that is what the sexual offender refers to himself as.

    However, I might say if you feel so strongly about an issue why do you not use your real name instead of hiding behind a Pseudonym?

    A second point is how does one name the person? I do not think the Herald would print it or that DPF would be happy if someone did it on his blog. The best way is to lobby for a brave MP to do so.

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  89. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Some helpful anti-zionist Jews posted this link this week to help you decide if your anti-israel post is actually anti-semitic.

    I don’t agree with much they say, but I think this is pretty helpful to a few here:

    http://kyriarchy.tumblr.com/post/91909762972/how-to-criticize-israel-without-being-anti-semitic

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  90. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    Hamas a creation of Israel. Guess Hamas got too big for their boots.

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  91. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    igm (1,404 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 10:08 am
    I would dearly have loved to get amongst that rabble unionised rent-a-mouth load of shit demonstrating yesterday.

    What would have done you big brave winner?
    Tried to sway them with your eloquence and reasoned argument?
    Made fallacious assumptions?
    Shouted the same tiresome derogatory names you spout here?
    Mumbled hollow threats of physical violence?
    Actually used violence to close down any opposing views?

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  92. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Conservatives 1.2 (down 0.3) = 0 seats in the House (synonyms include zero, jackshit, nil, nought).

    Dear O dear…..what will happen to the morals of the nation? Who will lift the spirits of the Godpuppets? The sheer tragedy of it all! :)

    Ref: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11296265

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  93. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    I would dearly have loved to get amongst that rabble unionised rent-a-mouth load of shit demonstrating yesterday.

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  94. stephieboy (3,091 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz ,

    I think the problem is that especially the Western radical left can’t at times make their minds up about the israelis But the reality ,IMO their ,position regarding israel is in reality no different to how Hitler and the Nazis regarded the Jews .Period. !

    And I happen to think that is also how Hamas and Hezbollah tend to think too wit their inflammatory rhetoric .!

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  95. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Hamas a creation of Israel.

    Actually, Hamas is a creation of Islamic extremism and anti-semitism. In the early 90s, Arafat sided with Israel over the rise of Hamas.

    Does anybody even remember Yasser Arafat anymore?? He was the one that forced the refugees to stay in the refugee camps rather than be settled, and placed the seed of hate that is now consuming the Palestinians…

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  96. Yoza (1,875 comments) says:

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  97. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11295704

    So the Herald is now claiming that ‘Matariki’ (Which was only invented a few years ago) is now New Zealand’s own “Thanksgiving” with families celebrating nationwide.
    This is utter nonsense. Why the fuck are they pushing this agenda?

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  98. stephieboy (3,091 comments) says:

    Yoza, from yesterday the factual evidence and details of the 2 million plus Palestinians allegedly systematically exterminated/ liquidated by the Israelis .??

    Places, times and dates.?

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/382816/palestinian-genocide-lie-jonah-goldberg

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  99. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Thanks Yoza.

    Just trying to correct your link with the correct start point:
    2min 33
    To see the flag that got a lot of the protesters off side.

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  100. Scott Chris (6,139 comments) says:

    Tosspot Russell then banned me.

    Ah welcome to the club Dean.

    I’m sure Precious Russell would like to frame society in the same way as he is fond of framing a debate.

    Classic trait of the Lefty Conservative. Fuck practical reality.

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  101. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Scott Chris … did you actually read the link?

    This is written by anti zionist jews – i.e. the ones that are critical of Israel. Asher the Anarchist retweeted it (if you must know).

    Or you can just align yourselves with Ugly or Yoza or the others, rather than have sensible debate. Your choice.

    If you like, why don’t you criticise segments of the actual article… I’ll be interested to hear it!

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  102. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    @ TimG_Oz

    Hamas a creation of Israel.

    Actually, Hamas is a creation of Islamic extremism and anti-semitism. In the early 90s, Arafat sided with Israel over the rise of Hamas.

    Does anybody even remember Yasser Arafat anymore?? He was the one that forced the refugees to stay in the refugee camps rather than be settled, and placed the seed of hate that is now consuming the Palestinians…

    Which is usually what happens when you displace people via ethnic cleansing and seize power by means of a terror campaign, e.g., political assassinations by the Stern Gang in the 1940s, the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946, and the Deir Yassin masscare by the Irgun in 1948. Unsurprisingly, many Palestinians view Zionism as the enemy and likely always will.

    Practical reality says there are no good guys in this fight, and never have been – just propagandists posturing. I think a Jewish state in Palestine was a stupid idea, and I think folks like Ben Gurion and Golda Meir long suspected when they forced the issue in 1947-48 that THIS was what Israel would always look like. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

    Common sense now dictates that as Israel and Palestine exist side by side then that mutual existence must be upheld, and they have to learn to co-exist together. But how that is possible, when the conditions for (to quote you) “Islamic extremism and anti-semitism” have been stoked within the Palestinian community by events outside their control for over 80 years…

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  103. Nukuleka (327 comments) says:

    nasska: what is it exactly that makes you so shit scared and insecure in yourself that you must be so deliberately offensive and unpleasant about those who have religious belief? Bad upbringing? Mummy made more of a fuss of your siblings than she did of you? There must be something that’s making you such an angry little boy/ girl/ genderqueer!

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  104. Odakyu-sen (655 comments) says:

    “But how that is possible, when the conditions for (to quote you) “Islamic extremism and anti-semitism” have been stoked within the Palestinian community by events outside their control for over 80 years…”

    It’s always “outside their control,” (I mean, when you’re the ‘victim,’ it has to be that way, right?)

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  105. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    I have no problem with the view that we have social responsibilities. And I agree rape is something we need to deal with as a society.

    But the existence of a “rape culture” in NZ or as a widespread thing in the West at this time, is not an idea with much serious evidence, and it does look suspiciously like something invented in a feminist academic environment.

    The only rape culture I am aware of is celebrated and promoted in some forms of rap music. But it’s not something that seems widespread outside of that, and I don’t think it’s a helpful idea as far as dealing constructively with the problem we do have.

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  106. Southern Raider (1,830 comments) says:

    Where’s evidence of this ethnic cleansing?

    You don’t provide medical supplies, electricity, food and allow self governance if you want to ethnically cleanse.

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  107. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    Nukuleka
    I can not speak for nasska
    Personally I find the sanctimoniousness crap spouted by those who profess belief in Jesus to be extremely irritating as well as being irrational contradictory dribble.
    Eduction will see the irrational belief in god monsters disappear, Now days they no longer have any political power in this country Unfortunate the same can not be said for some parts of the world. Murder in the name of god is still distressingly common in the news. Israel Palestine the war on terror etc etc etc a never ending series of deaths in the name of the “one true god” and you wonder why atheists spend time belittling the ignorant holders of such beliefs?

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  108. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    ….”what is it exactly that makes you so shit scared and insecure in yourself that you must be so deliberately offensive and unpleasant about those who have religious belief”….

    Wouldn’t be too sure about the fear & insecurity issues Nukuleka. I hadn’t noticed them but I’ll retire in a couple of years so when I have the time I might get myself checked out at the local head clinic just in case.

    But as to the reason I am “deliberately offensive and unpleasant about those who have religious belief”. Easy. Busybody, meddling, know alls who want to run my affairs based on their imagined moral authority courtesy of the great non-existent Skydaddy give me the shits.

    Glad I could help. :)

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  109. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    @ Odakyu-sen

    It’s always “outside their control,” (I mean, when you’re the ‘victim,’ it has to be that way, right?)

    No, I think you are misapplying what I said and meant. I’m referring to the Balfour Declaration, the UN partition plan of 1947, Jewish immigration up to 1948, and the Palestinian Diaspora of 1948 (unless anyone seeriously believes that the only or primary reason they left their villages they had occupied for centuries was because they were “told to” by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon…)

    And there is usually some propagandist for Israel piping up at some point saying that Palestinian political leadership always manages to shoot itself in the foot. I have no doubt they do. They are utterly inept, and common sense says they should lay down their weapons, as it is hopeless trying to fight a propaganda and/or physical war against one of the most politically savvy nations with one of the strongest armies in the world…when they could be taking economic and cultural advantage of an essentially western democratic trading and investment partner right next to them. But then the same could be said of the Balkans, the Indian subcontinent, Africa – all regions subject to unrest due to the lasting legacy of ethnic cleansing.

    But once people are angry and radicalised, they are not usually amenable to reason and common sense, Especially when it is emotionally satisfying to “play the victim”, or attempt to take charge of your circumstances by using the same tactics that the Zionists originally used to win their state.

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  110. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    Griff,

    “Personally I find the sanctimoniousness crap spouted by those who profess belief in Jesus to be extremely irritating as well as being irrational contradictory dribble.”

    And some of have the same reaction to the sanctimonious crap spouted by Liberals, as well as finding atheism to be extremely irritating as well as being irrational contradictory dribble.

    That’s just the reality we all have to deal with on a blog that has multiple views and opinions.

    “Eduction will see the irrational belief in god monsters disappear”

    This claim , made by secular liberals about a hundred years ago, is not true. If your waiting for this, you will be waiting forever.

    Atheism produced it’s own horrors during the 20th century, some of the worst the world has ever seen, so they have no moral superiority to claim.

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  111. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    Killings and murders in that peaceful part of town:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11296312

    Police have captured those suspected of stabbing to death two pawn store workers in an armed robbery in South Auckland.

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  112. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    @ Southern Raider

    Where’s evidence of this ethnic cleansing?

    You don’t provide medical supplies, electricity, food and allow self governance if you want to ethnically cleanse.

    I was referring to the historic situation that occurred in 1948 onwards that created the legacy both sides are now living. I mentioned Deir Yassin.

    Also, Jewish settlement of the West Bank fulfils much of the criteria – or at least it most certainly lays a foundation for inevitable future ethnic cleansing.

    Wouldn’t it be marvellous to go back some 1000 years and reverse the conquests and settlements that laid the foundation for the present situation in the Balkans? Since at least 1917, and certainly since the 1930s Zionists, in contradiction to the obvious and inevitable results of their actions have been acting in a way that makes future and on-going conflict practically inevitable. Yes, the Palestinians, including the radicals stirring the pot should lay down their arms, and get on with life. But they won’t. So it goes on and on…

    Good on Israel for staying their hand to the extent that they do, and provding what humanitarian aid they can and do. I also don’t doubt that Israel should and must do all it can to protect its existence, and ensure its security. Hamas sure don’t care about Palestinian kids killed, other than as useful propaganda. Which, yet again, is just how the early Zionists in the Stern Gang and Irgun reacted to news of the Holocaust, and concentration camp survivors detained and deported back to Europe when they attempted to immigrate to Palestine in the years 1945-47…

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  113. Southern Raider (1,830 comments) says:

    How does the left deal with this conflicting issue?

    Hamas has used an explosive laden Donkey in an attack on Israeli soldiers.

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  114. Southern Raider (1,830 comments) says:

    Kimbo

    Based on your logic would it be great to go back 2000 years and give the whole area back to the Jews.

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  115. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    :lol:

    We are at fifty percent in this country for belief in god
    from 99.5% one or two generations ago
    Care to bet when god whacking will be such a minority it will no longer be tolerated as a rational standpoint on a political blog in the western world
    At the present rate of decline anther two generations max and its a historical novelty with few adherents..
    But. but. but. we can still convert the ignorant in the developing wold …Eh spawn.

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  116. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “We are at fifty percent in this country for belief in god”

    Half the country is not bad. :)

    The “decline” in NZ is to overall figures which, in a nation that was nominally Christian, simply means that the nominals have been weeded out.

    The interesting part is that the conservative wings of most branches of the Church are rising in numbers.

    “But. but. but. we can still convert the ignorant in the developing wold”

    Most of the conversions in Asia are amongst the educated middle class. “but, but, but, only ignorant people can be Christians, sputter, sputter…” :)

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  117. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “Care to bet when god whacking will be such a minority it will no longer be tolerated as a rational standpoint on a political blog in the western world”

    Happily. Never. :)

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  118. wreck1080 (3,918 comments) says:

    Just found out the name of the prominent indecent act man .

    It is pointless for him to waste money on lawyers — his name is out there.

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  119. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    ….”but, but, but, only ignorant people can be Christians, sputter, sputter)”…..

    It’s not an essential qualification but the ability to park up logic & reason at the door of the church would certainly help. :)

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  120. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Griff, as I’ve said before – most of the world is religious.

    According to the CIA website, there are approx 7 billion people in the world –

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html
    (Click on the [+] People and Society link)

    According to the same site, 88.54% (6.2 billion) are religious in some way – Christian 33.35% (of which Roman Catholic 16.83%, Protestant 6.08%, Orthodox 4.03%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 22.43%, Hindu 13.78%, Buddhist 7.13%, Sikh 0.36%, Jewish 0.21%, Baha’i 0.11%, other religions 11.17%.

    Only 9.42% are non-religious and 2.04% are atheist.

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  121. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    I hope the Palestinian protest is not something we gonna see more of in this country.

    The whole face of it smacks of New World Order global village responsibility we are sposed to have for nothing that is our business.

    The US sponsors both sides to the tune of billions whilst their own citizens go without water and basic needs.

    We would not have seen this protest in NZ 15-20 years ago. Now we’re filled with extremists in sleeper cells who are going to begin bombing public places in this country.

    Notice the police never photographed protestors as they usually do. We are being infiltrated.

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  122. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “It’s not an essential qualification but the ability to park up logic & reason at the door of the church would certainly help.”

    Most of our youth are well educated and tend to hold or gain university degrees.

    Of course, “logic” and “reason” tend to be in the eye of the beholder. Just as an example, yourself and Griff can have a debate on the logic and reason behind AGW and have radically different views.

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  123. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    @ Southern Raider

    Kimbo

    Based on your logic would it be great to go back 2000 years and give the whole area back to the Jews.

    Indeed. Or the Canaanites before them! But then since when has logic ever dictated what has hapened in this conflict?! And more to the point, what little likelihood is there of logic ever dictating what will happen?! I don’t make the rules or some of the pertinent the facts of history. I just report them.

    However, the difference with conquests and settlements of the past is that the actions that formed the current state and/or present borders of Israel were made in defiance of international mandates, clear advice and common sense and within the lifetime of some of the present participants. And since 1945 the world has supposedly turned its back on forging a nation by means of conquest. With one exception…the West Bank. But Israel wants to act that it is a fait accompli. OK. Don’t be surprised when you reap the whirlwind. Zionism started this. It is utterly unrealistic to think those who lost out will just ignore that. I’m not saying what is right. I’m saying what is inevitable.

    Plus, given the obvious objections of the majority of the population resident in Palestine in the 1930s, neither the British, nor the UN had a moral or logical right to give away something that was not ultimately there’s to give, especially when the majority of potential “Israelis” were still in Diaspora.

    Present occupancy counts. Which is why Israel should and must continue to exist. But when it comes to the propaganda war, it is usually best to put your fingers in your ears when both sides talk. Like I said, there are no good guys in this conflict, and truth, the first casualty of war died here a long time ago.

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  124. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “The US sponsors both sides to the tune of billions whilst their own citizens go without water and basic needs”

    Have you ever lived in the US?

    Just trying to figure out where that bizarre claim comes from.

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  125. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    The “atheists” and their wishful thinking, ignorant of the cycles of history.

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  126. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nasska (10,570 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 1:42 pm

    To be fair, I do believe that those who have strong faith, actually have a happier life in many situations. When you don’t need a conscience and can blame everything on the ‘devil’ or evil, it saves one from looking too deeply at themselves and their own short comings.

    Society is a lot more regimented when all share a united belief. But with Globalisation we can see what happens when people with differing religious values have to share the same space – its not pretty.

    I have no problem with anyone having a belief in whatever they want, but when they want their beliefs to dominate mine, and expect me to live by their values, then I get a little angst. Believe whatever you like, but if you want me to believe it – you’re going to have to supply the LSD.

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  127. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Fletch

    Those statistics largely reflect ethnicity rather than personal belief. For instance, life expectancy in an Islamic theocracy is extremely short if you think that belief in Allah is a load of bollocks.

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  128. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Obama facing a twitter shitstorm after his 40-second mention of the shooting down of the Malaysian airplane, before going on with his campaigning and into a “jokey” 16 minute speech.

    President Barack Obama provoked fury in the U.S. on Thursday by casually devoting less than a minute to the deaths of 295 people aboard a Malaysian airliner, as he began an often jokey 16-minute speech about the need to expand America’s transportation infrastructure.

    [...]

    Twitter erupted, with thousands of users expressing emotions ranging from disappointment to disgust.

    Former CNN host Piers Morgan reacted with his typical barbs.

    ‘President Obama massively dropped the ball just now,’ Morgan tweeted. ’23 Americans killed and he says “it looks like a terrible tragedy” then back to jokes?’

    ‘I agree,’ responded singer Josh Groban. ‘Bad prep. I was shocked.’

    National Review reporter Charles Cooke tweeted: ‘Shorter Obama: ‘Something awful has happened with a plane. It’s awful. Awful. Republicans are bastards for not funding new airports”.’

    Traveling in Denver, this reporter heard gasps from guests watching a hotel lobby television as Obama spoke.

    One remarked: ‘A tragedy is when you lose control and fly into a mountainside. This is mass-murder. What a disappointment.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html#ixzz37ps2xgfw

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  129. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Contrast with President Reagan’s speech when the Russians shot down Korean Airliner (KAL 007) on September 5, 1983

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  130. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “But with Globalisation we can see what happens when people with differing religious values have to share the same space – its not pretty.”

    Judith, true to a degree, but it depends a lot less on religion and a lot more on culture and history, which can be buggers to overcome when there is a long history of dislike and mutual animosity.

    On the other hand in NZ the old mutual hatred between most Protestants and most Roman Catholics has long since passed, and today most mainstream branches of the Church have very positive relationships, as well as positive relationships with other faith communities.

    This may be due to the issue of people coming here to get away from old cultural and ethnic conflicts, which makes it easier, not to mention safer, to reach across the divide,

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  131. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Yep, that’s right – Hamas is now using suicide, er, donkeys, to attack Israel.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/israel-uncovers-cross-border-tunnels-gaza-ground-offensive-continues-article-1.1872895

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  132. gump (1,649 comments) says:

    @Nukuleka

    “There seems to be some kind of implication being made, by Pete George and other of like mind, that New Zealand has a ‘rape culture’ that is not to be found to such an extent in other countries such as Australia, the UK, the USA and so on and that therefore women are more vulnerable here than in such overseas countries. Is this in fact what is being suggested and if so what is the basis for this assertion? Evidence please.”

    ————————–

    Well – one glaring piece of evidence is that the USA does not suppress the names of people that are accused or convicted of sexual offences such as rape and child molestation.

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  133. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “I have no problem with anyone having a belief in whatever they want, but when they want their beliefs to dominate mine, and expect me to live by their values, then I get a little angst. ”

    Fair enough Judith. But most Christians in NZ vote National or Labour, and those that don’t tend to other parties already in Parliament. The hysteria driven myth on KB that most Christians want an explicitly “Christian” government that will force people to be Christians is total bollocks, so I really don’t think you have anything to worry about.

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  134. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    “I have no problem with anyone having a belief in whatever they want, but when they want their beliefs to dominate mine, and expect me to live by their values, then I get a little angst. ”
    But it is ok for liberals to dominate.

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  135. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    …”The hysteria driven myth on KB that most Christians want an explicitly “Christian” government to will force people to be Christians is total bollocks”…..

    I don’t for a minute think that Xtians actually want a rerun of the Spanish Inquisition & to gain converts at gunpoint so that point conceded.

    What I do know is that those who get their instructions from Skydaddy want everyone to live by their hangups. eg no abortion, marriage only for heteros, banning euthanasia. On the other hand I have no intention of forcing them to have an abortion, marry a gay or die in peace.

    This is the essential difference……you feel compelled to force your crappy creed onto me & mine.

    I’m quite happy for you to live the one life you are guaranteed as you see fit.

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  136. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    Contrast with President Reagan’s speech when the Russians shot down Korean Airliner (KAL 007) on September 5, 1983

    lol, four days after the event and then, despite his rhetoric, Ronnie Raygun did nothing.

    But little action followed. Reagan demanded an apology to the world and continued a number of sanctions — but he decided not to end grain sales to the USSR or to suspend arms control talks. George Will argued that “the administration is pathetic…. We didn’t elect a dictionary. We elected a President and it’s time for him to act.” The Manchester Union-Leader editorialized that “if someone had told us three years ago that the Russians could blow a civilian airliner out of the skies – and not face one whit of retaliation from a Ronald Reagan administration, we would have called that crazy. It is crazy. It is insane. It is exactly what happened.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/07/18/reagan-and-kal-007/

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  137. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    The shooting down of Korean Airliner (KAL 007) was an accident no doubt. The Cold War was pretty tense and mistakes like that were made.
    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-mh17-planes-military-shot-down

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  138. stephieboy (3,091 comments) says:

    Fletch (5,980 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 1:55 pm

    And the Americans invaded the USSR. etc ??

    Gulag .did the Soviets pay the Koreans compensation Like the US did with the Iranians and Flight 655?

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  139. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Ronald Reagan was the living example of this when, on September 1, 1983, the Soviet Union, without warning, shot down a civilian Korean airliner flying from New York to Seoul, killing all 269 men, women and children on board.

    Reagan was on vacation at his ranch in California. He cut his vacation short and headed back to Washington the next day.

    He met with his national security advisers to determine what happened. Initial reports were that Soviet military aircraft had tracked a Korean civilian airliner which had strayed accidentally into their airspace, then deliberately, callously, destroyed it without warning. They initially lied, denying they had anything to do with it. But once their guilt could not be denied, they said their action was justified because the civilian aircraft was a spy plane.

    It marked a turning point for Reagan. Up until that time he and others had hoped to compromise with the USSR, trusting them to do the right thing for themselves and the world. The incident changed Reagan’s mind.

    He concluded the Soviet system was corrupt, malignant, and would ultimately fail. He knew that compromise with Soviet leaders wasn’t possible, and that we had to negotiate from a position of strength to have any chance of success.

    Reagan took pen to paper and wrote his own speech to the American people, explaining what the Soviets had done and why it was so dangerous to us and the world.

    “…make no mistake about it, this attack was not just against ourselves or the Republic of Korea. This was the Soviet Union against the world and the moral precepts which guide human relations among people everywhere. It was an act of barbarism, born of a society which wantonly disregards individual rights and the value of human life and seeks constantly to expand and dominate other nations.

    They deny the deed, but in their conflicting and misleading protestations, the Soviets reveal that, yes, shooting down a plane — even one with hundreds of innocent men, women, children, and babies — is a part of their normal procedure if that plane is in what they claim as their airspace.

    They owe the world an apology and an offer to join the rest of the world in working out a system to protect against this ever happening again.”

    Reagan followed strong words with even stronger actions. He accelerated work on the Star Wars missile defense system. He urged Congress and the American people to continue the Reagan defense buildup. He shored up our European allies and encouraged them to stand up to the Communists. And he understood that the Soviet economy depended on high oil prices, so he set about to bankrupt them. Six years after the Soviets shot down the Korean airliner, their empire collapsed.

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  140. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    The denigration of Christianity by antagonists is reassuring that rights will be respected.

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  141. stephieboy (3,091 comments) says:

    Fletch, and the US should recommence the Star Wars defence system.?

    What should the US precisely do in response to MH17.?

    Your Sarah P any ideas.?

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  142. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    MH17: Key calls on Putin to step up

    Prime Minister John Key is calling for Russian President Vladimir Putin to “show leadership” and force Russian-backed separatists in Ukraine to allow an investigation into what happened to MH17.

    “He now needs to stand up and tell the rebels to back off to ensure that there’s access and a full corridor of access so that all information can be gathered.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10288851/MH17-Key-calls-on-Putin-to-step-up

    Pffffff….what a joke. Talk about grandstand politicking. Like Putin listens to J Key who couldn’t even get close to Putin at a luncheon they both attended this year. Farcical.

    This is unabashed toadying for the election to try to look substantial in world affairs. so nakedly pathetic.

    Labour is polling so badly, yet J Key resorts to this unashamed drivel. Look how long it took for B Obama to comment giving the world no direction. But J Key thinks his 2 cents worth amounts to something.

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  143. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    ““The US sponsors both sides to the tune of billions whilst their own citizens go without water and basic needs”

    Have you ever lived in the US?

    Just trying to figure out where that bizarre claim comes from.”

    I will respond to this a s a p with the usual evidence I link to.

    You may like to go to Paul Begley on You Tube wheer you will find California is in huge drought and endemic water restrictions apply. If you really want to see the eveidence.

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  144. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    NZ trying to punch above their weight over MH1?. Relax NZ, we are not very important in the global scheme of things. Speculation rather than evidence for blame at this stage and people want action?

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  145. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    MH17: Black box tampering feared

    Malaysia is worried the black box recording devices of MH17 will be tampered with to protect those who shot down the plane, as a United Nations’ agency said Ukraine would be officially in-charge of investigations into the crash.

    Malaysia’s prime minister Najib Razak said after meeting relatives of victims that the black boxes are owned by Malaysia.

    “Those who have no rights whatsoever cannot claim or take control of the black box,” he said.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10288812/MH17-Black-box-tampering-feared

    Conspiracy as usual

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  146. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    stephieboy
    To my knowledge the Russians offered no apology and no compensation for KAL 007.

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  147. cricko (330 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird,
    If you are interested in household names doing sex crimes, pleading guilty then walking out of court with no
    conviction and permanant name suppression .

    http://www.humanheadline.com.au/

    By the way, what would be the point in having an ‘old boys network’ in the New Zealand justice system if it
    didn’t look after the old boys ? (PG linked to this site a couple of days ago, thanks Pete.)

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  148. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    “Reagan took pen to paper and wrote his own speech to the American people, explaining what the Soviets had done and why it was so dangerous to us and the world.

    “…make no mistake about it, this attack was not just against ourselves or the Republic of Korea.”

    But then the US did the same thing to the same country years later.

    So the US is obviously exactly how Reagan desribed of Russia. Sure looks like it

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  149. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    ShawnLH

    “The hysteria driven myth on KB that most Christians want an explicitly “Christian” government that will force people to be Christians is total bollocks”

    Except Shawn that it is not bollocks. The Bible mandates that you spread the word, this word is non negotiable, it comes with explicit instructions as to how one must life his life.

    Now, here I agree with nasska, you can do as you see fit as long as you do not demand that I live my life by the rules laid out in your book.

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  150. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    ““The hysteria driven myth on KB that most Christians want an explicitly “Christian” government that will force people to be Christians is total bollocks”

    As a Christian believer I can tell you this is not the case. Middle class Christianity wants morality.

    The world’s morals chop and change and rolls with tides as we call ourselves more progressive until morality is considered passe and irrelevant and we have the world we now have. Whilst the fraudulent corporates sit back with their feet up snickering and let capitalism be blamed for their govt backed criminality.

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  151. Chuck Bird (4,887 comments) says:

    cricko,

    I know the site but from what I understand you could be fined for posting it and possibly so could DPF. That is why I have not posted it.

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  152. goldnkiwi (1,304 comments) says:

    How lucky is the north that they have so many unemployed to work for the dole during the big clean up, some will gain good employment skills and be able to go on from there.

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  153. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Prime Minister John Key is calling for Russian President Vladimir Putin to “show leadership” and force Russian-backed separatists in Ukraine to allow an investigation into what happened to MH17.

    Seriously, this is best for the long run. It’s a legitimate reason to call for truce while investigators come in so that those falsely accused can have their names cleared.

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  154. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “It’s a legitimate reason to call for truce while investigators come in so that those falsely accused can have their names cleared.”

    Yes. the US and the Ukraine have certainly been falsely accused, when all the evidence says clearly it was Russian backed militia.

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  155. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    You’re such a liar, ShawnLH.

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  156. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    BB,

    “Except Shawn that it is not bollocks. The Bible mandates that you spread the word,”

    The Bible mandates that we spread the Gospel, by inviting people to freely make a choice for or against Jesus. That’s all.

    That has nothing at all to do with making the Bible law, or setting up a theocracy, so my assertion is factually correct.

    “Now, here I agree with nasska, you can do as you see fit as long as you do not demand that I live my life by the rules laid out in your book.”

    In a democracy I am totally within my rights to promote values by democratic means just like you and naaska are.

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  157. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    Ugly, your the one lying, the evidence is clear that it was Russian backed militia. Prove otherwise if you can, but once again your telling lies and ignoring evidence to suit your fantasies.

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  158. cricko (330 comments) says:

    OK Chuck, thanks for the warning, and I am sorry if I have inadvertantly put DPF at risk.
    I was unaware that even linking to an overseas site could be held as contempt.

    Thing is, when Judges make perverse rulings I feel that it’s almost your duty to call attention to it and ridicule it.
    If that means I get fined then I’ll cop it sweet.
    (I refrained from naming the Judge, maybe that may count in my favour)

    Also, the more people that put their neck on the line and draw attention to this sort of thing the better and the
    less likely that it will continue.

    What would be my (or your) chance of receiving the same preferential treatment for a similar offence ?
    Effing zero I would guess, surely there should be one Law for all.

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  159. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Ugly, your the one lying

    Quote what I said that was a lie or STFU, moron.

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  160. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    Ugly,

    You lied when you said: “You’re such a liar, ShawnLH.”

    Simple as that. As too “STFU, moron.”

    Let me makes this clear. I will say what I like, when I like, how I like within the bounds of our hosts rules.

    If you don’t like that, your free to get lost, or put your money where you mouth is and try to make me shut up.

    But I won’t hold my breath as gutless cowards like you are all talk and no hat.

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  161. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    You lied when you said: “You’re such a liar, ShawnLH.”

    Actually not. Here is one example of you lying:

    ShawnLH: “Everyone here has read your attacks on Zionism, your claims that most Jews are not real Jews…”

    UglyTruth: “You are still lying, ShawnLH. I never said that “most Jews are not real Jews”. ”

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/05/general_debate_14_may_2014.html#comment-1322149

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  162. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    shawnlh

    “The Bible mandates that we spread the Gospel, by inviting people to freely make a choice for or against Jesus. That’s all.”

    You left a bit out Shawn. The bible mandates that you spread the “word” of your god by inviting people to follow Jesus on pain of eternal damnation if they do not choose or elect to take up your very kind invitation.

    Now, if you take that approach with a sentient adult and that adult then elects to follow the word of your god then so be it. However to teach this fable to children is evil. To teach kids that unless they follow the word of your god that they will burn in the fires of hell for eternity, and that should their parents not be followers that they also will be condemned to a life of misery is nothing short of wicked.

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  163. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Can anyone show me how to link to a particular comment on a thread. eg UT @ 4.57pm

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  164. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Well I do want a government based on Christian principles. In the same way the homosexual atheist wants a government based on his godless principles.

    I will always stand up for God. Because God is your God as well,he is the creator of all things. You should fear God more and repent of your wickedness, otherwise when you die you will go straight to hell.

    So I will never stop speaking up for God. He is real and he is coming back to judge the living and the dead. So get ready.

    And the atheists we should never listen to them. They are clanging gongs who will destroy everything that is good and right.

    Jesus is the answer, whatever is the question.

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  165. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    Has Mr Key made a similar request to the PM/president of the Ukraine to “show leadership”?

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  166. Nostalgia-NZ (5,211 comments) says:

    wiki. I’m glad Key called Putin. It vents some frustration, shows leadership and not rolling over. Putin can make the wheels turn there and should. Apparently Putin has spoken about the wisdom of taking such a flight path – that’s a good point and so would be his ensuring compliance with the investigation and recovery.

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  167. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Nasska, if you right click the blue text under the post title you should get an option to copy the link location. You can use the “a” tag (anchor tag) to make a link or just post the link location in raw like I did in my 4:57

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  168. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 2:45 pm
    MH17: Key calls on Putin to step up

    Wow, I bet they’re shaking in their boots over that!

    It probably went something like “John Key who? From Where? … The butter, yes, nice … what did you want to say … Oh okay … you what? Are you serious? hahaha, … okay Don … oh sorry, OK John… Sorry too busy for golf … Well, got to go now Jack … oh sorry, John…. “

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  169. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    UglyTruth

    Thanks.

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  170. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    BB,

    “You left a bit out Shawn. The bible mandates that you spread the “word” of your god by inviting people to follow Jesus on pain of eternal damnation if they do not choose or elect to take up your very kind invitation.”

    True, sort of, but that has nothing to do with issues of governance or political beliefs. People who believe that also vote for a wide variety of political parties.

    I would say your take on slavation/damnation is very simplistic and not the way I (or Jesus) would put it. Have a look at the parable of the sheep and goats. Who is or is not saved is not the same thing as who is or is not a “Christian”.

    “Now, if you take that approach with a sentient adult and that adult then elects to follow the word of your god then so be it. However to teach this fable to children is evil. ”

    No, not at all. For a start. where do you get the idea of evil from in your own philosophy? If the universe is an accident with no inherent meaning, then there is no good or evil.

    As to what to teach children, to me, teaching them that life has no meaning or value, and that it’s all a horrible accident, with no reason for suffering and evil, well, that to me is evil.

    So, again, we are back to matters of personal belief and opinion.

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  171. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    I congratulate you on being brave enough to be honest about what you want.

    Of course you are quite wrong, also deluded, and, I am not sorry to say, in for a life of disappointment.

    Your Jesus is never the answer.

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  172. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    As much as I would like to continue this convo, my wife and I have just been told that a dear friend has died today, unexpectedly, from a heart attack, so I’m off the blog for tonight.

    God bless all.

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  173. cricko (330 comments) says:

    Our name supression laws have been perverted by Judges who missuse/abuse them, usually due to the old boys network influence.

    It’s time the law in this regard was rewritten.

    No one would object to supression where it would cause the victim of a sex crime to be identified, however when it
    is used just to avoid a ‘pillar of society” being identified because what they have done may cause them embarrassment, then
    that is just wrong.

    This matter is currently being made fun of today at Whaleoil 4.30 pm under the tag “Impertinent questions.”

    I trust that the above does not infringe blogsite etiquete.

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  174. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Shawn

    “If the universe is an accident with no inherent meaning, then there is no good or evil.”

    Oh please, are you now going to launch into one of your ‘without god there is no morality” rants? :)

    Morality predates scripture, it is as simple as that.

    As for teaching (brain washing) kids into believing that there is no meaning to life without your god, well that is indeed evil.
    It would be far better to teach kids that they have but one life (all the evidence points to this), and therefore they should enjoy what they have, to promise children that there is a better life after death just as long as they slavishly follow the teachings of your god is sick.

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  175. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Shawn

    Sorry to hear that. Take care.

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  176. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Big bruv- can I ask what is the cause of your endless ranting on every sabbath day? Like did your father beat you with a stick every day and twice on Sundays while singing the hallelujah chorus?
    Was a pastor mean to you as a child?

    I mean you do go on a lot about someone who you think is not actually there?

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  177. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    big bruv
    ‘It would be far better to teach kids that they have but one life (all the evidence points to this), ”
    Where can we find this evidence?

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  178. Rowan (2,396 comments) says:

    Big Blouse
    What ‘evidence’ are you referring to exactly? You have posted a grand total of 0 evidence for this ‘godless’ ‘purposeless’ earth

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  179. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “to promise children that there is a better life after death just as long as they slavishly follow the teachings of your god is sick.”

    I know who is the extremely sick one on here. It’s about bloody time you dealt with that Unbearable feeling. Never in my life have I seen someone consumed in so much hatred for God.

    Scott I think he must have been abused in the past or is he suffering from a dark neurological habit?

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  180. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    You can ask anything you like.

    My parents spared me the horror of a religious upbringing. They did suggest very strongly that I attend Sunday school once or twice, however I suspect that was nothing more than a ruse to get myself and my two brothers out of the house so they could have sex.

    Given our limited holiday budget in those days I did go to a religious indoctrination holiday camp once at Waikanae, I well remember being uneasy about the prospect of attending the camp but took the stance that it was only a week, and “how bad can it be”.

    Well, it turned out to be one of the most miserable weeks of my life, every single evening we were herded into a hall and forced to listen to a lecture from one of the camp chaperones about how “god’ had saved their life. If this was not enough they then insisted that at least four or five of the kids then got up on the stage to tell us all how they were saved by god. Given that we were all roughly eleven or twelve this was nothing short of obscene.

    So Scott, the answer to your question is that I have not really had any life shattering experiences at the hands of the religious yet I have always felt compelled to speak out against the evil that is religion.

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  181. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Scott (1,678 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 5:50 pm
    Big bruv- can I ask what is the cause of your endless ranting on every sabbath day? Like did your father beat you with a stick every day and twice on Sundays while singing the hallelujah chorus?
    Was a pastor mean to you as a child?
    I mean you do go on a lot about someone who you think is not actually there?

    Scott you were the one who raised god as a topic
    BB was responding to you
    He did not make threats or outrageous claims
    You started this with your unsubstantiated threats

    You should fear God more and repent of your wickedness, otherwise when you die you will go straight to hell.

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  182. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Rowan (1,777 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 5:57 pm
    Big Blouse
    What ‘evidence’ are you referring to exactly? You have posted a grand total of 0 evidence for this ‘godless’ ‘purposeless’ earth

    Someone who denies evolution cannot be trusted to evaluate evidence
    Do you have any evidence that evolution is not correct?
    Do you have any evidence that your god exists?

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  183. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    “herded into a hall and forced to listen to a lecture”
    This is where the trauma starts i.e. herded and forced.
    How did they herd you, were you threatened, abused and rounded up the with the help of cattle prods?
    How were you forced to listen? What denomination/group was it?

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  184. RichardX (326 comments) says:

    Pointless discussion with idiots who believe an ancient text over science
    I said I wouldn’t go there again and I won’t

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  185. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    It is wonderful to see unionised left-wing media hacks trying to discredit Slater. I find his coverage is far better than anything offered by MSM, and am glad to see Judith Collins supporting his efforts also. If this is the best Little’s lackeys can come up with, then they should concentrate on a little unbiased and truthful coverage of happenings in general, maybe then, public may read their columns.

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  186. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    It’s not all bad RichardX. Keeps the Godbothering set on their toes.

    I can sense the fevered clicking of the rosary beads. :)

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  187. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Gulag

    You raise a good point. It is more that there is a total lack of evidence to support the assertion that there is a sky fairy.

    For me, or any other sentient adult, to believe that your god exists then one is forced to swallow a whole raft of impossibilities. We could start with the birth, was Jesus really conceived of a virgin?, did Jesus really rise from the dead and if so why has he not come back as he promised?

    As for the evidence, well it’s called science.

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  188. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    RichardX

    Oh come on man, it’s fun. And at the very least it gets them thinking about, and doubting, the crap they spout.

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  189. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Fair enough Richard. The god guys get a bit tiresome with their insistence that we must prove the non-existence of a deity. There was I thinking that the idea of a supernatural entity was so remarkable that it should have some pretty convincing evidence.

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  190. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    I have always felt compelled to speak out against the evil that is religion.

    I feel very sorry for adults who are of such limited intellect that they haven’t yet learned to distinguish between the question of God and who He is, and mankind’s practice of religion.

    The two are quite distinct, quite separate things. The way to learn about God is sincerely to ask Him for clarity and understanding then read His word. If you don’t ask Him it won’t work and if you don’t ask Him sincerely it won’t work either. But if you do both of those things then read it, it will.

    And when you do, you will find that just as Jesus and the apostles had tremendous conflicts with the religious authorities of their day, the very same distinctions they fought against are in existence today.

    It takes great discernment to distinguish the sometimes extraordinarily subtle distinctions between some of mankind’s false teachings and the truth of the Word, but it is possible and it will come, when, and only when, you approach it with the correct heart and the correct mind.

    But many many people, including it appears, you BB, never even get to the start line, let alone begin, because you’ve misunderstood at a fundamental level how to approach the most important question you’ll ever face. More important than the partner you select to spend your life with, more important than your kids, more important than your career, more important than any other thing in the entire universe.

    So by all means don’t follow my advice, that’s entirely over to you. But my friend, don’t ever assume you know anything about religion at all, if all you’ve ever done is use mankind’s practice of it to formulate your view.

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  191. Gulag1917 (920 comments) says:

    Science does not prove or disprove anything relating to a deity.

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  192. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You attempt to draw a distinction between knowledge of god and the practice of religion, but you know only too well that the two things are inseperable. All the claimed knowledge of god comes to us via the medium of religion. There is no other approach to the question of god apart from human writings and religious practice.

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  193. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Reid

    I may be of inferior intellect, however I am at least able to think for myself. I find the whole idea of slavishly worshiping a non existent god to be something that is reserved for either the terminally stupid, or the eternally gullible.

    What you are suggesting is that I should give serious consideration to a way of living that was conceived in bronze age times, something that was used to explain things that man had no way of understanding in those days.

    I would implore you Reid to think about things far more carefully, don’t waste the one life you have devoting it to something that does not exist.

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  194. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Gulag

    Religion has in no way proved the existence of God or Jesus.

    Science can at least show a plausible link, every day science is chipping away at the fallacy that is religion. In the end Gulag Science will win as it has the advantage of truth in its favour.

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  195. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    I am at least able to think for myself

    So am I. You may have noticed that, over the years.

    What you are suggesting is that I should give serious consideration to a way of living that was conceived in bronze age times, something that was used to explain things that man had no way of understanding in those days.

    No I’m not suggesting that at all BB. All I’m saying is: read the Bible and I warn you, you will not understand it unless you follow those directions I gave above. If you try to read it without doing that, it will be, to you, a bunch of mumbo-jumbo gobbledegook of who begat whom and stuff that has no relevance whatsoever to you in anyway today. Which is precisely how you view it, isn’t it.

    However it’s not that at all, there’s a very good reason why it’s the best selling book in history and the billions of people over the centuries who have read it using the directions I gave which aren’t mine BTW I’m just passing them on, also clearly got something out of it because they built Western civilisation out of it, for one thing, didn’t they.

    So why not suspend your disbelief just for the purposes of the exercise and just have faith that the people who built Western civilisation might actually have known a thing or do about things of which you are currently unaware.

    I hope you do it my friend. I don’t expect you to, but I hope you do. Because it opens doors to enlightment that will astound you. It’s only people who don’t know it, who think it limits thinking. It does the precise opposite.

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  196. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    When it comes to the god delusion only the writings of ignorant weirdos three hundred years removed from what actually happened count.

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  197. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    So big bruv, you had one week of a christian camp with people giving their Testimony. And that justifies you going on and on every Sunday with your hatred of God? I don’t buy it. There is more going on but hey maybe you are not aware of what it is?

    God is there, he is real and Jesus will come back to judge the living and the dead. You will never get rid of God. You might as well repent. At least you’ll have the opportunity to go to heaven.

    Also all Christians we need to speak out more. I am sick of atheists running the show and dismantling our civilisation. We need to be bolder. Stand up, stand up for Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross!

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  198. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Reid

    ….” they built Western civilisation out of it, for one thing, didn’t they. “….

    They didn’t build anything out of what was in the Bible. What did happen was that there were sufficient headcases hoodwinked into believing the fairy dust to support a church hierarchy. That organisation grew to be very powerful……sufficiently so as to take on rulers who wouldn’t bow down to them.

    That & their monopoly on education spawned a Christianity based civilisation…..not God magic.

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  199. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You just need to say it louder, Scott.

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  200. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    ….” Stand up, stand up for Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross!”…..

    Be a good chap & put the cork back on the communion wine. :)

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  201. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “Also all Christians we need to speak out more.”

    Indeed we do Scott. I find it rather fascinating that certain bloggers spend their whole lives trying to discredit the existence of a God.

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  202. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Agreed dad. They are obsessed with God. But unfortunately they are on the side of the devil. As if the devil needs more advocates.

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  203. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    UT’s mates on the offensive: http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8877501/islamists-mount-heaviest-libya-assault

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  204. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    “A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche

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  205. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ dad4justice (7,705 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 6:53 pm

    I don’t think it is fair to criticise bloggers who spend time discrediting the existence of God. If its acceptable for Christians, or other religions to promote God’s existence, then surely those on the flip side, have just as much right to argue their alternative point of view?

    From what I’ve seen the arguments start flying when god is mentioned. To be balanced, if God can be mentioned, it must also be acceptable for his existence to be denied. You can’t call one side obsessed without applying the same accusation to the other.

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  206. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Reid

    Given that I am so adamantly anti religious it would be hypocritical of me not to have read the bible. One cannot be an advocate for atheism unless one has read the argument of those I appose.

    Having read it I am even more sure that it is all a pile of tosh. It is totally inconceivable to me that a man of your intelligence can believe anything that is written in the bible.

    I do not deny you the right to follow your god, I do not deny you the right to believe in any god you like but I will not allow you to insist (and to be fair you are not one who seems to do this) that those of us who are more enlightened also follow your god, nor live by the rules that your god supposedly set down.

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  207. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    @Addled Griff: Have you been home lately?

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  208. OneTrack (3,107 comments) says:

    bb – “I find the whole idea of slavishly worshiping a non existent god to be something that is reserved for either the terminally stupid, or the eternally gullible.”

    Which non-existent gods? Gaia? Taniwha?

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  209. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    But big bruv we absolutely insist on God and will never stop praising his name and absolutely will work hard to achieve a God honouring society.
    Because we know if God is for us who can be against us?

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  210. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott.

    Show me where I said that one week of a god indoctrination camp is the sole reason that I am an anti theist. That is not what I said and you are well aware of it.

    I simply used that week of brain washing as just one of the reasons I will not swallow the cool aide your lot prescribe.

    As for your statement “God is there”, well Scott I would ask only one thing of you. Show me the evidence. Prove to me that your assertion “God is there” is anything other than a statement of your faith. There is nothing wrong with having faith Scott, nothing at all, however it is not proof, never has been and never will be.

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  211. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    One track

    “Which non-existent gods? Gaia? Taniwha?”

    Take your pick. God, Jesus, Zeus, Allah, Buddha, any of them.

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  212. cricko (330 comments) says:

    At Labours blog, The Standard, ‘Open mike’ thread today I think the moderator must be having his dinner,

    After a previous lifetime ban I had a post published @ 6.32pm.

    “We better hope that Kim can come through for us on 9th September.
    Were relying on you Kim. Please don’t let us down.
    Your all we have now Kim.”

    Maybe they didn’t get that it was a joke, maybe they actually do think that their only hope is Kims big reveal.

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  213. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Scott (1,681 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 7:17 pm

    Because we know if God is for us who can be against us?

    That’s not working out to good though is it – it appears that more and more people are against Christianity as time proceeds.

    I have no problem with you believing in whatever you want to – but I object strongly to you insisting that we must all live according to your values. From what I’ve seen you have no more right to demand that than other religions.

    As yet you have offered no absolute proof that your God exists, more than any other God, therefore you have no greater right. You show no respect to other religions and their belief in their God – and yet their philosophies are supported by as much evidence as yours.

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  214. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    So if you had your way you would force us all to live a life as laid down in the bible?

    Is that right?

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  215. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    “I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves.”
    ― Christopher Hitchens, Hitch-22: A Memoir

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  216. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Griff

    Very good, although I prefer Hitchens Razor….

    “What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”

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  217. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Griff

    I don’t deny myself my delusions and illusions, they’re great company – and I don’t deny others theirs, for they probably need company too – but I deny their right to force their illusions and delusions on me and expect me to live within the rules of their mindset.

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  218. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    “Indeed, organizing atheists has been compared to herding cats, because they tend to think independently and will not conform to authority. But a good first step would be to build up a critical mass of those willing to ‘come out,’ thereby encouraging others to do so. Even if they can’t be herded, cats in sufficient numbers can make a lot of noise and they cannot be ignored.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

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  219. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    I deny their right to force their illusions and delusions on me and expect me to live within the rules of their mindset.

    So who does that to you Judith? Or is that another delusion you suffer under?

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  220. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    @KimNotcom:

    Sorry Frau Laila & Herr Hone, when you said ‘roadtrip’ I thought you meant ve vould look at zee roads from my helicopter.

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  221. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    RIP James Garner

    Izo Yamura: Why do you drive racing cars, or do you not think about it?

    Pete Aron (James Garner): Oh, Mr. Yamura, I don’t think there’s one of us who doesn’t ask himself at least once in the middle of a race, “What the hell am I doing here?” Of course, when it’s over, we conveniently forget that we asked ourselves that question. I think about it and a lot of reasons I don’t know. Maybe to do something that brings you so close to the possibility of death and to survive it is to feel life and living so much more intensely.

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  222. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Reid (15,893 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 7:37 pm

    Here is the answer to your question –

    Scott (1,681 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 7:17 pm
    But big bruv we absolutely insist on God and will never stop praising his name and absolutely will work hard to achieve a God honouring society.

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  223. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Big bruv, our society has been organised according to Christian principles. Lately militant homosexual atheist activists have been working hard to destroy our christian civilisation and bring in what is degrading and evil. So yes I want Christian civilisation to be restored. While you work hard to bring in godlessness we will work hard to bring about a better nation that honours God.
    Regarding your reason for your hatred of God the only reason in your past is one week of a christian camp. There appears to be no other reason that you have disclosed.

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  224. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    “Big bruv, our society has been organised according to Christian principles”

    As the kids say, “epic fail”. Morality predates scripture, do you really think that prior to the arrival of Christian principles there was wholesale rape, pillage and murder?

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  225. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    But big bruv we absolutely insist on God and will never stop praising his name and absolutely will work hard to achieve a God honouring society.

    And how is that doing:

    I deny their right to force their illusions and delusions on me and expect me to live within the rules of their mindset.

    ??

    You clearly don’t understand what honouring God is, Judith. Before you express another opinion on it, perhaps you should familiarise yourself with that concept as practised by your local Christians. I thought that was what academics normally did, but perhaps I’m wrong, with you, on this subject.

    If you do take my advice, I’m pretty confident you’ll find your local Christians abhor force of all kinds, to the contrary, they express love of all kinds, all over the place. But why don’t you find that out for yourself.

    (BTW, I thought academics weren’t into stereotyping either, but you seem to have that happening in you as well, with regard to us. If we were negroes, or gay, would that help you overcome your prejudice?)

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  226. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Okay….hands up!

    Who amongst you have been converted to Jesus after reading this thread? :)

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  227. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Scott (1,682 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 7:46 pm

    …bring in what is degrading and evil …

    according to your definition of what is degrading and evil.

    ..our society has been organised according to Christian principles

    might have been once, but for sometime it has been diverting from that… and lets not forget, before Christianity it was organised according to other principles, at one time Christians were regarded the same as you regard homosexuals today.

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  228. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nasska (10,581 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 7:53 pm

    I think I might have been, I’ve been uttering ‘Jesus Christ’ a lot when I read some of the comments.

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  229. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    Always back to bum sex..

    Can you not drag your filthy god addled brain out of its recurring arse fondling fantasy you perverted suppressed sodomite.

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  230. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Reid (15,894 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 7:53 pm

    Academia does not have rules on what its members think Reid. It covers a very large range of disciplines, including theology, so I think you might be getting a little confused.

    Wanting Christians to work towards a “God honouring Society” sounds like a take over to me. What happens to those of us that refuse to honour something we don’t think exists – will we be hung on a cross for being ‘different’ to the rest of you? How are you going to achieve your ‘god honouring society’ if the majority do not want it?

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  231. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    I fear you are in for a life of disappointment. Our society is never going to go back to being one ruled by Christian values. Our nation is never going to be one that “honours God”. Within time we will rid ourselves of the need to refer to god at all.

    As for my reasoning, I told you about one event, it did not scar me for life but it did reinforce my desire to fight against this ultimate bullshit. The reasons to keep fighting against it are many, certainly far too many to list here. However, the number one reason that I do keep up the battle is because to teach this crap to our kids is the epitome of evil.

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  232. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Settle down & pour another double Judith……the feeling will pass. :)

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  233. twofish (94 comments) says:

    So what if Cunliffe had lunch with someone who would seem glaringly inappropriate for the possible next Prime Minister of New Zealand [haha ha ... no, carry on ... I can do it] to lunch with [heehee ha ...] and accept a gift of a bottle of wine from?

    I mean, under name suppression, Cunliffe shouldn’t know, and no one else, because they shouldn’t know either, could legally tell him.

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  234. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Morality prelates Scripture. Sorry don’t believe that. Scripture starts with God “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”.
    But yes when you believe in God it makes a difference how you behave.
    And when you believe in nothing except maybe your own goodness then that makes a difference. If there is no God then why be good, why be moral, why sacrifice your own desires to help others?
    But hey our church this week has looked after old people in a rest home, raised over $1000 to pay for medical treatment for a kid in the Philippines and on Friday will provide a safe fun environment for 30 primary school kids. We do this because of Jesus living in us by his spirit.
    Let me ask you this. What have you done for anyone lately?

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  235. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    How are you going to achieve your ‘god honouring society’ if the majority do not want it?

    We’re doing it right now Judith. Same as we’ve always been.

    Feel threatened?

    No?

    Care to apologise for your hallucination?

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  236. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    The Parable of the Navigator

    Alex and Pat were in a restaurant having lunch. They agreed to meet later at a park which neither of them had previously visited.

    Alex started to drive across town and found the way blocked by a torrent pouring from a broken water main. The park was on the east side of town and the water was flowing down Main street. By driving north, Alex reached a cross-street that was not blocked. Thus Alex reached the park safely.

    Pat set the GPS navigator to provide directions to the park. The voice directed him to cross Main street. Pat drove into the flowing water and was drowned as he tried to leave his stalled car.

    The moral: Logic and observation are safer than blind faith in an out-dated guide.

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  237. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    ….”But hey our church this week has looked after old people in a rest home, raised over $1000 to pay for medical treatment for a kid in the Philippines and on Friday will provide a safe fun environment for 30 primary school kids. We do this because of Jesus living in us by his spirit.
    Let me ask you this. What have you done for anyone lately?”….

    Must be pretty important to tally up the good deeds on a weekly basis Scott. Forget a few of them & you won’t have enough brownie points to get into Heaven. :)

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  238. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    “Scripture starts with God “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”.

    So Scott, prior to the “arrival” of Jesus how did the fine folk of Bethlehem or Jerusalem know about the word of God?

    Care to answer that one for me?

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  239. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Reid

    Actually I do feel threatened.

    The beast of MMP may very well put a space cadet supported by his space bunnies in a coalition government with National. When a small minority can have such power, there is reason for concern. God knows what Key would have to agree to, just to have them on board.

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  240. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    While you are working out an answer to the first question I posed you might want to have a re think about this statement you made and any possible hasty retraction.

    “But yes when you believe in God it makes a difference how you behave.”

    It sure does, there have been thousands of atrocities that could only have been committed by people of faith.

    As for your comment about people of faith raising fund for charity, are you really that stupid as to suggest that without faith one cannot donate to a worthy cause? Does that mean I should cancel my monthly contribution to the SPCA because I am not religious?

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  241. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Actually I do feel threatened.

    Well that’s your personal problem Judith and none of us can help you with that. I suggest you talk to a sympathetic therapist whose prepared to listen to you. You may have to pay them quite a lot p.h. for this particular problem but trust me, it’ll be worth it.

    But in terms of this being “evidence” that Christians “force” anything on anyone, if you really do think that, then with respect, you need to go and attend a Logic 101 lecture given by the Philosophy Dept, because something’s apparently broken inside, which renders you in urgent need of that kind of assistance.

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  242. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

    And you can add the filthy old sod raped and impregnated a teenager against her will.

    How can these self deluded god whacking morons hold such incompatible beliefs in thier tiny minds at the same time ? Is it drugs or just a mental problem?

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  243. cricko (330 comments) says:

    Oh no !

    Banned again for one more lifetime from “The Standard,” due to my 7.21 effort.
    Gutted.

    Still my post stayed up for over an hour before they twigged.

    Hey Griff, God is good. You can be forgiven if you repent.
    Yes mate, even you. There is always hope.
    We believers turn the other cheek, we don’t hate like you do.

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  244. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    Sorry, I forgot about the question you posed of me. What have I done for anybody lately?

    Well Scott, every month I donate $100 to the SPCA, when time allows we foster dogs until they can find a new home. In the past I used to rehabilitate many dogs, sometimes up to seven at a time (along with the three of our own we had at that time)

    Just last week I gave a workmate of mine a not inconsiderable sum of money to assist with his granddaughters rehabilitation, this came from my own pocket. I did this because I could and because it was a good thing to do. In many ways Scott my good deeds are of far more value than yours, I did them out of compassion, you do them out of some warped idea that they will allow you access to heaven.

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  245. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Scott (1,683 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 8:09 pm

    And there we have it … the one thing that peeves me off more than anything else – the need to point out the good deeds you’ve done, with the presumption that no one else could possibly be so ‘good’.

    The fact is there are many people that give their time, their money, their goods and even their lives for the sake of others, on a daily basis – but because they are not trying to buy a ticket to the rock festival in the sky, they have no need to skite about it, to tell others to receive praise or anything else. Because they don’t have any fear of being a sinner, they do not need to live in constant fear of displeasing any God or winning his/her favour – so they are able to go about their lives, doing good, and not wasting time trying to prove how bloody wonderful they are. The meek shall inherit the earth :-)

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  246. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Concurrent or cumulative sentencing cricko? :)

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  247. twofish (94 comments) says:

    Hey, Griff, which city are you in? – I was just wondering about the likely perimeters of Ground Zero

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  248. cricko (330 comments) says:

    Question.

    Why go out of your way and make an effort to scoff at and denigrate those who believe ?

    What do you get out of that ?

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  249. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Judith, my point is not my goodness, which is very minimal, it is the goodness of the church that for a relatively small group of people does a lot of good in the community.
    Regarding atheists doing good, sorry, most of you don’t and why should you? Atheists do no good works and organise no charities, why should they?
    Now if big bruv does something good for someone well bully for him. However he is living above his philosophy and indeed in spite of it.

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  250. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    And there we have it … the one thing that peeves me off more than anything else – the need to point out the good deeds you’ve done, with the presumption that no one else could possibly be so ‘good’.

    Another delusion Judith. Christians don’t do good works because “they are not trying to buy a ticket to the rock festival in the sky, they have no need to skite about it, to tell others to receive praise or anything else.”

    But of course if you’re operating under the delusion that’s why we do what we do, why you’ll see things that don’t exist.

    Which is why I suggested the therapy and the logic course.

    Hint: None of that will work for you if you persist with your arrogance that you think you know how we think, because you keep demonstrating you don’t, and you need to accept that. But I suspect you’re not about to do that, are you.

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  251. cricko (330 comments) says:

    Great point nasska.
    I suspect that this time it’s cumulative.
    Even those drongs will have woken up by now.
    Still, I’ll give it another go some time, just to check.

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  252. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Criticisms of religion flying thick and fast here, so not sure what to address.

    One quote that springs to mind is by Will Durant –

    There is no significant example in history, before our time, of a society successfully maintaining moral life without the aid of religion

    As some have pointed out, the laws of our society are based on Judeo/Christian morality. If you pull the rug of religion out, those laws may last for a generation or so, but then they will disappear as well.

    The Swiss theologian, Emil Brunner, put it like this:

    The feeling for the personal and the human which is the fruit of faith may outlive for a time the death of the roots from which it has grown. But this cannot last very long. As a rule the decay of religion works out in the second generation as moral rigidity and in the third generation as the breakdown of all morality. Humanity without religion has never been a historical force capable of resistance.

    Stephen Keillor, in Prisoners of Hope, says:

    The initial act of eliminating our Creator God from our thinking is so immoral and unethical in itself as to render the following concern with ethical fine points quite absurd. It’s as if students were to murder the teacher and then sit down to have serious discussions about proper manners in the classroom.

    I see someone quoted Nietzsche above. Even Nietzsche said –

    When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls the right to Christian morality out from under one’s feet. The morality is by no means self-evident. Christianity is a system, a whole view of things thought out together. By breaking one main concept out of it, the faith in God, one breaks the whole. It stands or falls with faith in God.

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  253. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    ” Atheists do no good works and organise no charities”

    That is utter bullshit Scott. I know you are failing miserably in our attempt to defend your bronze age superstition but there is still no need to revert to blatant lies.

    “Now if big bruv does something good for someone well bully for him. However he is living above his philosophy and indeed in spite of it.”

    No Shaun, my motives are pure, my philosophy is clear. If I have the means to assist somebody I will, I do it because it is the right thing to do not in some vain attempt to appease the celestial dictator.

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  254. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Big bruv, the fine folk of Jerusalem knew about God through the Jewish bible generally known to us as the Old Testament.

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  255. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Some people with boards were busy last night.

    http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/crop-circle-2014-appears-South-West-field/story-21460927-detail/story.html

    Seriously. You believe it was that, you’ll probably believe anything.

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  256. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Big bruv you are deluding yourself. Without God there are no transcendent values. There is only opinion, good and evil do not objectively exist. Why do anything good for anyone? You do good for someone, great. But you have no objective reason for doing so.
    On the other hand perhaps there is a spark of goodness in you? Maybe you are not as far from God as you think?

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  257. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @Scott (1,684 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 8:41 pm

    You are very wrong there Scott. I know many people that do good, a great deal of ‘unconditional’ good. They don’t have the same need as yourself to remember or keep a track of it, because they are not trying to win favour with any God. The do it simply because they can, and because they have an innate desire to help others less fortunate than themselves.

    These people don’t give on condition – they don’t expect those they give to, to believe in what they do, or to follow their philosophy. I’m not knocking you for giving, but I am knocking you for presuming that you are the only ones, and for the manner in which we are constantly bombarded with the ideology that it is only the religious that are charitable.

    In my experience the Church is not the only ‘good’ organisation in society. It may have been historically, but that does not apply now. The lotteries commission gives a great deal to society, and before you argue that Lotto takes a great deal as well, do not forget that the Church also takes from society, both in donations and through tax exemptions etc.

    Society has changed. You need to remember that for thousands of years society worked towards Christian domination – but finding that it didn’t fulfill all that it promised, it is now moving past it – and past the need to be based on or use unsubstantiated beliefs as a tool for social control.

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  258. Griff (7,728 comments) says:

    :lol:
    Some of us dont have an invisible sky daddy making us do ” right ”
    We manage to discern what is right by using our rational minds
    We do what we believe to be right for truly altruistic reasons with absolutely no thought of reward or sense we answer to anything but our own self’s .

    On holiday last week
    shoveled four meters of gravel then compacted it to relay a drive and set another four tonnes of rock to make drains so my misses can enjoy her time out.
    why
    Because she helps the truly needy kids and I give her a calm and peaceful oasis to help her cope with the stress.

    Then returned to my life at home
    Helping my dad get past the last years of his life with dignity and compassion….. .

    Not a single god evolved just my opinion on what is right so done and what is wrong so avoided. A sense of morals or obligation generated by rational examination . Based on a Gods retribution they are not morals they are compulsion driven fear.

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  259. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    Be that as it may, however it does not explain, nor justify your claim that without religion there would be a lawless society.

    Scholar’s argue as to when the old testament (surely one of the most violent and evil books ever written) was written, best estimates suggest it was written no later than three hundred years before the eccentric preacher calling himself Jesus arrived.

    Even if we allow three hundred years it only goes to prove my point and invalidates yours. If we were to take your silly assertion that morality is derived from scripture then man would not have survived, we would have killed each other well before the old testament was invented.

    Morality is natural, children who are saved from a life of religious indoctrination prove that time and time again, those same children display the innate sense of right and wrong that we all have.

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  260. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    I read an anecdote a while back about three people who volunteered in their community, who were conscientious parents, who turned down promotions because they would mean compromising their integrity & were model citizens .

    One was a theist, who did what he did out of a fear of Hell.
    One was an agnostic, who did what he did out of a hope for Heaven.
    One was an atheist, who did what he did because it was the right thing to do.

    Which person better exemplifies the proclaimed Christian ideal?

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  261. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Scott (1,686 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 8:54 pm

    Without God there are no transcendent values

    many ancient societies that did not believe in the Christian God had transcendent values. You couldn’t find a more loving and peaceful religion (and less critical and spiteful) than that practiced by Buddhists. Their transcendent values supersede Christianity, and appear to be far healthier and peaceful for their believers than anything Christianity ever offered.

    Anyway Scott, I’ve been up since 4 am, so are off to bed. Go peacefully, and gently – your biggest threat comes from within. If you truly believe you would know that the kingdom of heaven will one day be yours, so you have no need to feel angst against those that don’t see the same light you do.

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  262. SGA (1,040 comments) says:

    “How’s things going, Sol”
    “Oh you know. Eli come over last night, killed my son, raped my wife, and stole my food. Sort of spoilt the evening a bit”
    “You know what, Sol. Sometimes I wish we had some commandments against that sort of thing”

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  263. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    Thanks, you prove my point entirely.

    “Without God there are no transcendent values. There is only opinion, good and evil do not objectively exist. Why do anything good for anyone? You do good for someone, great. But you have no objective reason for doing so.”

    Those of us (nearly all atheists) who do good deeds are far more pure than religious folk. You do it so as to appease your celestial dictator, we do it out of the goodness of our own hearts. A point you happily concede.

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  264. Steve (North Shore) (4,563 comments) says:

    Anyone heard from Judith Tizard lately?
    Prob on the pis, never mind

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  265. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Steve (North Shore) (4,485 comments) says:
    July 20th, 2014 at 9:12 pm

    LOL I’m glad you think I’m her, or she’s me, or sommit like that. The fact you think there are people in their hundreds that would vote for me lightens my heart. Thank you Steve – I love you too! muwhaaa :-) Sweet dreams!

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  266. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Those of us (nearly all atheists) who do good deeds are far more pure than religious folk. You do it so as to appease your celestial dictator, we do it out of the goodness of our own hearts.

    But bb what is good? We’ve been over this argument many, many times. The idea of “good” changes with society based on the whims of people. Abortion wasn’t always legal but now it is; it wasn’t always ‘moral’ but now many see it as so. So which is correct? Then or now? Either abortion is wrong or it isn’t. If you’re a subjective moralist you can just change your mind and morals to suit the times. Without an objective view of morality, what it comes down to is popular opinion, which is an ad populum fallacy.

    Here’s a quote from ex-atheist.com

    If there is no God, then no man is in a position to force his opinion of morality upon another. One man’s subjective view of morality is equal to another man’s equally subjective view of morality. Thus, there is no reason to believe in any morality just because another man tells you that it is good.

    It would take an authority that was above having only a subjective view of morality to legislate that morality. God’s view of morality is objective, not subjective.

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  267. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Some of us dont have an invisible sky daddy making us do ” right ”

    Neither do Christians, Griff. It’s called free will. Apparently, all humans have it.

    We manage to discern what is right by using our rational minds

    So do we. If it was irrational then it would hardly be the best selling book in history would it and it would hardly be the force it has been throughout civilisations and history, would it. If any movement is likely to be irrational, it’s the recent one called atheism which, like a spoiled irascible naive little child, purports to have authority sufficient to overthrow centuries upon centuries of accepted wisdom. And just like said child, atheism insists it’s correct, stamping its foot just like a petulant and naive child would. Doesn’t it. Tell me what’s irrational about that, Griff. Apart from the fact you don’t like me drawing that accurate observation about it. Because who cares what you like, it’s rationality we’re discussing, your preferences therefore don’t enter into it, do they.

    We do what we believe to be right for truly altruistic reasons with absolutely no thought of reward or sense we answer to anything but our own self’s .

    Anton LeVay based a lot of his church of Satan on Aleister Crowley’s teachings. Crowley’s dictum was “do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law” which translates into Leary’s “turn on, tune out,” Nike’s “just do it” and numerous other teachings all based on the philosophy that individual will is the supreme objective of life. And this of course is coming through society. You can see it with each passing generation. And to the Christian this is no surprise, for contrary to what many of you appear to believe, this is not God’s world, He has given Satan authority over it, and Satan, the Deceiver and the Slanderer, is very good at what he does, hence this movement of selfishness and the whole range of the seven deadly sins, which is permeating many hearts and minds, which has always been around, but which seems to have been quickening in recent decades, and grows stronger with each new generation.

    All of which is predicted, precisely as planned. The sand is running out of the hourglass, those with wisdom will heed it, those without, will act surprised when the hammer falls.

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  268. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Big bruv, no the Old Testament is very ancient. The newest books of the Old Testament are dated at least 400BC and scriptures such as the Torah are very ancient indeed.
    Regarding the concept of “good” there is no objective standard of what is good. You think gay marriage is good, I think it’s an abomination. How can we decide?
    The answer is God calls it an abomination. That’s why it’s evil. It’s not my opinion that counts it’s God’s opinion.
    At the moment your opinion of what is good and evil is the direct opposite of what God thinks is good and evil.
    So I’ll take God’s opinion on what is good and what is evil rather than your own opinion, sorry.

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  269. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Here’s C.S Lewis, with probably one of the greatest comments on Morality from his book, Mere Christianity. There’s real wisdom here –

    Other people wrote to me saying, “Isn’t what you call the Moral Law just a social convention, something that is put into us by education?” I think there is a misunderstanding here. The people who ask that question are usually taking it for granted that if we have learned a thing from parents and teachers, then that thing must be merely a human invention. But, of course, that is not so. We all learned the multiplication table at school. A child who grew up alone on a desert island would not know it. But surely it does not follow that the multiplication table is simply a human convention, something human beings have made up for themselves and might have made different if they had liked?

    I fully agree that we learn the Rule of Decent Behaviour from parents and teachers, and friends and books, as we learn everything else. But some of the things we learn are mere conventions which might have been different—we learn to keep to the left of the road, but it might just as well have been the rule to keep to the right—and others of them, like mathematics, are real truths. The question is to which class the Law of Human Nature belongs.

    There are two reasons for saying it belongs to the same class as mathematics. The first is, as I said in the first chapter, that though there are differences between the moral ideas of one time or country and those of another, the differences are not really very great—not nearly so great as most people imagine—and you can recognise the same law running through them all: whereas mere conventions, like the rule of the road or the kind of clothes people wear, may differ to any extent. The other reason is this.

    When you think about these differences between the morality of one people and another, do you think that the morality of one people is ever better or worse than that of another? Have any of the changes been improvements? If not, then of course there could never be any moral progress. Progress means not just changing, but changing for the better. If no set of moral ideas were truer or better than any other, there would be no sense in preferring civilised morality to savage morality, or Christian morality to Nazi morality. In fact, of course, we all do believe that some moralities are better than others. We do believe that some of the people who tried to change the moral ideas of their own age were what we would call Reformers or Pioneers—people who understood morality better than their neighbours did. Very well then.

    The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more nearly than the other. But the standard that measures two things is something different from either. You are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality, admitting that there is such a thing as a real Right, independent of what people think, and that some people’s ideas get nearer to that real Right than others. Or put it this way. If your moral ideas can be truer, and those of the Nazis less true, there must be something—some Real Morality—for them to be true about.

    The reason why your idea of New York can be truer or less true than mine is that New York is a real place, existing quite apart from what either of us thinks. If when each of us said “New York” each meant merely “The town I am imagining in my own head,” how could one of us have truer ideas than the other? There would be no question of truth or falsehood at all. In the same way, if the Rule of Decent Behaviour meant simply “whatever each nation happens to approve,” there would be no sense in saying that any one nation had ever been more correct in its approval than any other; no sense in saying that the world could ever grow morally better or morally worse.

    I conclude then, that though the differences between people’s ideas of Decent Behaviour often make you suspect that there is no real natural Law of Behaviour at all, yet the things we are bound to think about these differences really prove just the opposite.

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  270. Maggy Wassilieff (394 comments) says:

    @ Judith 9:09pm
    “You couldn’t find a more loving and peaceful religion (and less critical and spiteful) than that practiced by Buddhists”

    A brief review of the history of Japan, Korea, Thailand, Myanmar/Burma and Sri Lanka might cause you to revise your thinking.

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  271. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Reidy, very well put sir :)

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  272. Scott (1,800 comments) says:

    Anyway must go now. All you atheists need to go to church next Sunday and actually spend time in an actual church finding out about actual God. You’ll learn something and you’ll feel much better, it certainly a better thing to do than hating on God all day long.

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  273. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    “The answer is God calls it an abomination. That’s why it’s evil. It’s not my opinion that counts it’s God’s opinion.
    At the moment your opinion of what is good and evil is the direct opposite of what God thinks is good and evil.
    So I’ll take God’s opinion on what is good and what is evil rather than your own opinion, sorry.”

    There is one large difference between my opinion and the one that you follow.

    I am real, your god is not.

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  274. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Scott

    How can we hate something that does not exist?

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  275. Scott Chris (6,139 comments) says:

    How about some crank medicine bashing to add to the list:

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  276. cha (4,019 comments) says:

    You couldn’t find a more loving and peaceful religion (and less critical and spiteful) than that practiced by Buddhists

    Ya think..

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  277. Rowan (2,396 comments) says:

    RichardX @ 7.12

    “Someone who denies evolution cannot be trusted to evaluate evidence
    Do you have any evidence that evolution is not correct?
    Do you have any evidence that your god exists?”

    Still waiting for that proof of evolution Richard and that proof that your ancestors were monkeys.
    The earth is evidence that it was created, it did not spontaneously occur as you retards seem to believe, plenty of evidence but as you already “know” that evolution and science explains everything then I won’t waste my time with a simpleton like yourself (or bigot blouse)

    I suggest you and blouse both get a life as you both spend far to much time on here preaching your hatred and ignorance of religion.

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  278. chiz (1,144 comments) says:

    Still waiting for that proof of evolution Richard and that proof that your ancestors were monkeys.

    Feel free to learn some genetics sometime.

    The earth is evidence that it was created, it did not spontaneously occur as you retards seem to believe

    The only people who believe that our planet spontaneously occurred are the creationists. You appear to be arguing against a straw-man.

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  279. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    The Kalam Cosmological Argument – or, one of the arguments for the existence of God.

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  280. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    @Fletch

    this is a posh version of 1st cause – even Aquinas agreed this is no real proof as it was one of his proofs

    As I was taught at Catholic school it falls at the fence of all ontological arguments requiring an impossible to prove assertion/assumption to prove their point – they ‘beg the question’

    nice try

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