Billboard arsonists strike again

August 24th, 2014 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

The Conservative Party says dirty politics have become dangerous politics after a candidate’s car hoardings were set alight. 

New Lynn representative Steve Taylor says his neighbours alerted him to the fact that the political signs – which were affixed to a trailer – were ablaze.

Fire fighters put out the blaze. 

The car had been parked at Taylor’s home, where he lives with his wife and two young children. 

Flames could easily have reached the house, Taylor said. 

“This is a wilful act of destruction and very risky to my family as we live in a fairly bushy area. It could easily have reached the house while we were sleeping.”

Thanks to the two nearby fire stations and a quick-thinking neighbour, this wasn’t the case, he said. 

Taylor said he believed the motive was political.

Of course it was political. While some billboard vandals are apolitical (attack all), it has been noticeable this election that parties of the right have been massively targeted in co-ordinated attacks.

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87 Responses to “Billboard arsonists strike again”

  1. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    “it has been noticeable this election that parties of the right have been massively targeted in co-ordinated attacks.”

    I didn’t see any right wing parties getting attacked.

    They’re no parties around that want to reduce parliament to one tenth its size, roll back fifty years of oppressive legislation and restore dignity and self respect to the people.

    What I do see is a whole bunch of left wing parties who fight viciously among themselves over not being far left enough.

    If NZ did have any true right wing or Conservative influences it would be a different country, and not one where each election the influence of Soviet style Bolshevism grows stronger and stronger.

    Violence and deceit is increasing only because the political spectrum in NZ sits at the far left end and slides further in that direction every election.

    We need to roll back leftism, not keep compromising with it.

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  2. billr (21 comments) says:

    i was driving down to the Aro coffee shop from Kelburn yesterday, there’s a spot on a bad bend there that is used for all the polly posters/billboards, All munted except the Labour and Mana/Intertwat party. I’ve never seen it this bad.

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  3. big bruv (14,137 comments) says:

    Dirty politics?

    Will we see Comrades Dann, or Bradford screech about this on tonight’s news?

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  4. oldpark (373 comments) says:

    The best example of sign destruction was when the “green taleban” party was caught destroying hundreds of National Party signs.The” green terrorist” who was caught doing it had a girl friend in the Australian Commie Russel Normans office.Go figure.Last I read Norman was joint owner of the no electoral seat list party., The party that wants to turn NZ into another North Korea.,if elected ,with their attack on road funding for Transmission Gully and Aucklands Puhoi highway.The imports Norman from Australia,and the yank from USA Genter are hell bent on cancelling both future highways.They certainly have graduated ,from smashing National Party signs.Maybe they should stick to destroying signs,a lesser evil than destroying a country.

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  5. big bruv (14,137 comments) says:

    “If NZ did have any true right wing or Conservative influences it would be a different country”

    Then start a party that espouses those views instead of constantly polluting the blogsphere with your “red under the beds” ranting’s. After all Bedwetter, you have had “many victories in your ten year war against the left”

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  6. Caleb (479 comments) says:

    Red is right.

    Look how far left National have gone and still they’re the big bad wolf.

    It’s pointless.

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  7. Slipster (181 comments) says:

    So how much police resources are allocated to investigating that arson? (This is a felony I believe, isn’t it?)
    When can we expect prosecutions?

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  8. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    In this day and age of ‘cheap disposable’ waterproof cameras, I wouldn’t think it would be hard to record some of these activities and catch the culprits.

    If the police don’t investigate arson against a political contender then something has gone very wrong.

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  9. brucehoult (200 comments) says:

    Billr, the ACT ones (one official, one put up by the Chinese community) were repaired and re-errected mid afternoon. They’d been destroyed again by 10 PM.

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  10. FeralScrote (224 comments) says:

    I feel your pain Redbaiter ,but unfortunately the country will not be returning to the good ol` days of the unfettered capitalism of the Victorian era that you pine for,a return to workhouses for the poor and debtors prisons just `aint gonna happen in our lifetimes.

    Ironically out west ,billboards are largely untouched except for Hones`, go figure?

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  11. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    “So how much police resources are allocated to investigating that arson? (This is a felony I believe, isn’t it?) When can we expect prosecutions?”

    The Police have been infiltrated by the left to the same degree as most of our public institutions. That is how the left make their advances. Not politically but culturally. You have to recognise left wing cultural influences and confront them or else its only going to get worse. The fucked in the head indoctrinated low intellect half educated losers burning those signs will end up running this country if you don’t fucking well wake up.

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  12. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    “that you pine for”

    You wouldn’t have a clue what I pine for you half educated ignorant of history waste of time. All you commies can ever do is build strawmen, beat them and expect others to defend against your pathetically misinformed assertions. So feeble minded it would make you laugh if it wasn’t done so constantly.

    Its the consensus of rational citizens that things are gradually getting worse, no matter how many times you lying progressive lemmings assert otherwise.

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  13. FeralScrote (224 comments) says:

    LoL Red ,your dinosaur hatred of progress is a hoot, your own indoctrination is so absolute you don`t have a clue to how clown like you are.

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  14. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    @billr I know exactly the spot you are talking about, and it has happened multiple times at that location on the hairpin bend in the last couple of weeks. The first time the other hoardings had a serious beat-down leaving only Grant Robertson proudly gazing over his loyal subjects. The last time they were lazy, and just uprooted the other parties signs and left them lying on the ground.

    It does seem like there is a co-ordinated campaign against Nat/Conservative signs, I don’t really understand it – if they spent as much energy electioneering positively they might win some extra votes. This way they just look like petty vandals- hardly an endorsement for strong political leadership.

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  15. artemisia (254 comments) says:

    In Newtown, Wellington, there is a bunch of hoardings in John Street. In the first few days all were ripped out and lying on the ground except Labour. But last week, no damage and all still up and not defaced. I wondered whether local Labour supporters were told to pull their heads in …

    Will watch the site with interest.

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  16. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    Scrote- that you think people who do not subscribe to progressivism are “dinosaurs” is proof of your own ignorance. Conservatism is a philosophy like any other philosophy that is right or wrong. Time past or future has nothing to do with it.

    That you don’t know this shows how poor your education was, and that you think Progressivism is good because it is something new is another example of indoctrination rather than education. (History badly needs to be returned to the education system.)

    Progressivism has been around for centuries- its just the name that has changed. It started out as Communism or Marxism.

    One of the main cultural changes Marxism has wrought is amorality (that’s different to immorality you poorly educated cretin) and it is this inability to detect right from wrong on an individual basis that is behind the destruction of the signs. You’re so brain damaged you see nothing wrong with acting like a coward and a thief and a vandal and a Bolshevik, because you perceive it as being for the good of the collective. You’re the same kind of mindless slavering idiot that gave Hitler and Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot their power.

    Conservatism on the other hand has at its core the belief in the individual and the rejection of tyranny, and those beliefs are timeless and in fact needed today more than at any time since WWII.

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  17. Yogibear (372 comments) says:

    If a scientist can invent a kea proof camera and catch it vandalising a stoat trap (Stuff news today). It shouldn’t be too hard to snap a couple of billboard vandals. I’m betting your average Green Party member is dumber than a kea. After all, the stuff article says keas can make their own tools.

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  18. adze (2,129 comments) says:

    This happened a couple weeks back in Wadestown as well… notice which party’s hoarding is still standing?

    http://i.imgur.com/8q69UPv.jpg

    Even the Greens’ one got smashed!

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  19. ObligatoryMarxist (37 comments) says:

    Saying that it’s politically motivated is one thing – it clearly is, and good. Saying it’s co-ordinated is quite another, is it seriously that incomprehensible to you that ordinary people might identify the government and parties in power and the ones on the right with the suffering they’re facing? Even if you don’t accept that NACT are responsible for the poverty and destruction going on in our society, many people do.

    I find it quite interesting that those on the right see billboard vandalism as an attack on democracy – I see it as the opposite, as a powerful expression of democracy. Democracy isn’t about placing one message after the other in an orderly fashion, or putting in a complaints letter, it’s about the power of people, on the street, as a collective, pushing for what they want as the common good.

    Billboards and ‘official’ election advertising is done in and by a realm that the majority of people don’t have access to – their voice is shut out because they can’t get a billboard or an advertisement on Television. They can’t afford slick PR people to find the best way to advertise. They can’t mount a defense against the media onslaught, and so their outlet is physical, and at street level – i.e. billboard vandalism.

    Yet people on the right seem to believe fervently that democracy comes about only through official, approved channels controlled by a select, small group of people. Would someone like perhaps to expand on that (civilly) and explain their position more thoroughly? I’m sure you see my point of view as mad – likewise, I see yours as mad – but by explaining it, I’m hoping you can understand it a bit better (even if you disagree) and you’ll respond by (civilly) explaining your position so I can understand it a bit better.

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  20. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    IndoctrinatedMarxist- you sneak around under cover of darkness destroying other people’s property. You’re cowards and thieves who can’t play with a straight bat and if you were caught you would be criminals and its why you should never be within a light year of any governing entity.

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  21. Lance (2,708 comments) says:

    @YogiBear

    I bet the Kea was smarter than the billboard vandals.

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  22. adze (2,129 comments) says:

    @ObligatoryMarxist

    Saying that it’s politically motivated is one thing – it clearly is, and good. Saying it’s co-ordinated is quite another, is it seriously that incomprehensible to you that ordinary people might identify the government and parties in power and the ones on the right with the suffering they’re facing?

    Not incomprehensible, just implausible, given the Facebook group “National Party billboard makeovers” organised vandalism, and the campaign organised by two Greens hangers-on in the 2011 election. Basically, the left have history in this sort of thing. That’s fact.

    I find it quite interesting that those on the right see billboard vandalism as an attack on democracy – I see it as the opposite, as a powerful expression of democracy. […] Yet people on the right seem to believe fervently that democracy comes about only through official, approved channels controlled by a select, small group of people.

    The way “you see it” doesn’t change what it is. If you’re trying to stifle dissenting voices, that is the very antithesis of democracy. As the quote famously attributed to Voltaire goes: “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”

    Billboards and ‘official’ election advertising is done in and by a realm that the majority of people don’t have access to

    This is an even more feeble argument. People have greater access to expression now than they ever have – you are using a very powerful form of expression right now – social media. Ironically, I can’t say the same for many left-wing supporter blogs. Dissent is frequently banned outright (which in this case they are entitled to do because people are free to set up their own blogs – but it’s rich to say that suppressing right-wing views promotes democracy when left-wing supporters are free to come to blogs like KB and foment their own forms of happy mischief). Billboards are just another form of expression, and there’s nothing wrong with that as long as dissenting views (expressed using their own resources) aren’t suppressed.

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  23. FeralScrote (224 comments) says:

    Red, you are building your own strawman there and a magnificent bedazzled one it is too,the simple fact is you are as rabid as the lefties you profess to hate so much.
    The fact is we live in a socialist country albeit with relative freedom ,your Messiah Colin Craig is no more conservative than you or I are communists,if you want true conservatism you will have to move to one of the Middle Eastern paradises where there is no healthcare ,welfare or religious or nonreligious freedom.

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  24. louie (96 comments) says:

    “it has been noticeable this election that parties of the right have been massively targeted in co-ordinated attacks.”

    I find the lack of media comment on this amazing.

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  25. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    @ adze, you beat me to it. Nice post.

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  26. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    louie (91 comments) says at 11:55 am

    “I find the lack of media comment on this amazing.”

    Really?
    Where have you been for the last 10 years?

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  27. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    “if you want true conservatism you will have to move to one of the Middle Eastern paradises”

    You see why I don’t often bother engaging with the left?

    I say I am opposed to big powerful govt and tyranny and this brain damaged moron points me to undemocratic countries run by all powerful dictators.

    Dumb as a box of rocks.

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  28. greenjacket (482 comments) says:

    I have never seen an election so devoid of any debate on policy and so nasty – stolen personal emails, destroyed signs… And it is all from the Left.
    And what depresses me is how the media have been complicit in this (esp. in TV3 and the NZ Herald).
    I am not sure why the Left and the mainstream media is doing this. My suspicion is that the Left and the “old” media are both in decline (it is unlikely the NZ Herald will still be going 5 years from now, and the Labour Party has pretty much given up trying to develop policy), and as they decline they are lashing out in desperation.

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  29. FeralScrote (224 comments) says:

    Reddy, you would`nt know big govt or tyranny if it jumped up and bit you on your gimp suited arse.

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  30. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    @ObligatoryMarxist Well written opinion. Thanks for taking the time

    Yet people on the right seem to believe fervently that democracy comes about only through official, approved channels controlled by a select, small group of people.

    I’m not sure where you get this opinion from. That’s certainly how I feel about the left. The “we know better than you” brigade. Democracy has become a very broad word and as such has lost a lot of its meaning. If you read Rodney Hide’s opinion piece today in the Herald he puts fairly clearly why an attack on election hoardings is an attack on ‘democracy’. It’s not really an attack on democracy as it doesn’t affect an individuals right to vote. It does, to some degree, attack the fairness of the elections as the protected right to promote your party, the crux of Rodney’s argument, is attacked. In many socialist countries, your right to equal promotion of your party is severely curtailed eg Venezuela. You can look around the world and find many regimes that claim to have had a “democratic election” but what is the value if the lead in, or indeed the outcome, was not fairly contested?

    Saying that it’s politically motivated is one thing … … Saying it’s co-ordinated is quite another…

    The problem is that ‘the left’ have history on this. See 700 National billboards destroy in co-ordinated attack. That was 2011 so it’s no stretch of the imagination that this would happen again this year.

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  31. ShawnLH (5,675 comments) says:

    @ Redbaiter,

    “I didn’t see any right wing parties getting attacked.

    They’re no parties around that want to reduce parliament to one tenth its size”

    Can you show us where it is written that this must be a right wing policy?

    Conservative Right parties have existed since long before you were born, and I know of none that have advocated this. There might be a couple of fringe parties, but not much more.

    So your claim here is fatuous bullshit.

    Your definitions of what constitutes Right Wing have no historical foundation, no ideological foundation, and no credibility.

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  32. ShawnLH (5,675 comments) says:

    “You wouldn’t have a clue what I pine for you”

    Neither do you it seems.

    “half educated ignorant of history waste of time.”

    As I have just proved, you are the one ignorant of history, ignorant of the movement you claim to represent. You have zero understanding of the history of the Right, especially it’s conservative forms.

    “All you commies can ever do is build strawmen,”

    That is exactly what you have done with your claim about reducing government to one tenth it’s size. Created a straw man, then claimed that unless a party has this policy, they cannot be Right wing. Except apart from some fringe libertarian parties, this is not a conservative right policy.

    “Its the consensus of rational citizens”

    That does not include you then, because your abusive rantings and your claims about what is or is not Right wing are not rational.

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  33. ShawnLH (5,675 comments) says:

    “Progressivism has been around for centuries- its just the name that has changed. It started out as Communism or Marxism.”

    Marxism started in the 19th century. That hardly constitutes “centuries.” If you had mentioned the French revolution you would have been on solid ground, but once again your ignorance of history is showing.

    “Conservatism on the other hand has at its core the belief in the individual and the rejection of tyranny, and those beliefs are timeless and in fact needed today more than at any time since WWII.”

    Real Conservatism does not have the individual at it’s center. That is Liberalism.

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  34. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    “As I have just proved,”

    Ha, as you have so hollowly asserted you mean.

    Just the same old worthless empty bellowing in support of the Progressive status quo.

    And get an education that allows you to understand the simple difference between asserting something and proving it.

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  35. ShawnLH (5,675 comments) says:

    “Ha, as you have so hollowly asserted you mean.”

    Well it’s easy Red. Show me a major conservative right party that has this “one tenth” idea as part of it’s policy at any time over the last hundred years.

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  36. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    Why don’t you just look up the date Marx wrote Das Kapital you half educated loon?

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  37. mjw (399 comments) says:

    ShawnLH – National’s housing policy announcement has just proved Red’s point! If that is a right wing policy, then I’m Kim Dotcom.

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  38. ShawnLH (5,675 comments) says:

    And what does that have to do with your one tenth claim?

    Also, if you really ere conservative you would understand that Marx is a symptom of the problem, not the cause. The cause goes back much further than Marx.

    Still waiting on your proof that reducing government to one tenth it’s size is, historically and ideologically, a policy of the conservative Right.

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  39. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    Wait all you like I don’t engage with trolls, especially the uneducated ones.

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  40. ShawnLH (5,675 comments) says:

    mjw,

    But this is the problem. Who defines what is or is not Right wing? I’m happy to have a go at that, but it would just be my opinion, as unlike Red I don’t claim to be the Pope of global Right.

    As far as the policy goes, it actually is consistent with one of the older understandings of conservatism. Look up ‘Rhine Capitalism.’

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  41. ShawnLH (5,675 comments) says:

    “Wait all you like I don’t engage with trolls, especially the uneducated ones.”

    So you can’t answer the question because you know it is bullshit. And I’m not trolling, I’m challenging you to debate.

    As far as my education goes, I would bet good money it’s vastly better than yours.

    But hey, if you want to run away and hide, again, be my guest. It only proves you have no clue what you are talking about and do not have the knowledge or intellect to engage in debate.

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  42. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    What happened to trueblue Red?

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  43. laworder (292 comments) says:

    Obligatory Maarxist wrote


    I find it quite interesting that those on the right see billboard vandalism as an attack on democracy – I see it as the opposite, as a powerful expression of democracy. Democracy isn’t about placing one message after the other in an orderly fashion, or putting in a complaints letter, it’s about the power of people, on the street, as a collective, pushing for what they want as the common good.

    It is an attack on democracy, albeit not a very major or effective one (and tends to backfire on the perpetrators in that their favoured parties end up with a poor reputaion). To clarify it for yourself, reverse the position – imagine that you had spent all day as a volunteer for Greens/ Mana / whatever your preferred flavour is on the left, putting up billboards. You go out for an evening meal after a hard days unpaid work, and on the way home see that every single billboard you spent all day putting up has been vandalised or destroyed by righties.

    Still see that as “a powerful expression of democracy”?

    Regards
    Peter J

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  44. waikatogirl (625 comments) says:

    I was thinking of replying to obligatory Marxist but I see redbaiter has told it like it is, and pretty civilly. Thanks redbaiter. Isn’t the Election where all NZ’ers get their say OM! Sneakin around in the dark damaging other’s stuff is criminal and morally wrong – just vote like the rest of us and live with the result. That is democracy!

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  45. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    I’ll turn on the waterbed heater then waikatogirl! :)

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  46. ShawnLH (5,675 comments) says:

    Yes, on that score Red is right. It’s bullshit to claim that vandalism by a few activists is a legitimate expression of democracy.

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  47. waikatogirl (625 comments) says:

    There is a reason I’m ignoring you Johnboy! but thanks for the offer… I enjoy humor in whatever form. enjoy your waterbed lol

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  48. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    “There is a reason I’m ignoring you Johnboy!”

    Is it a jealous husband waikatogirl? :)

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  49. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    I hope it’s not because you are a lesbian! :)

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  50. OneTrack (3,218 comments) says:

    waikatogirl – “Isn’t the Election where all NZ’ers get their say OM! Sneakin around in the dark damaging other’s stuff is criminal and morally wrong – just vote like the rest of us and live with the result. That is democracy!”

    The left dont like that model because the peons can’t be trusted to vote the “correct” way. Hence, anything is allowed to screw the scrum. Hacking private email accounts and ripping down opponents election hoarding is par for the, lefty, course (cause?). I am surprised anybody is surprised.

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  51. Yoza (1,906 comments) says:

    adze (1,954 comments) says:
    August 24th, 2014 at 11:44 am

    [ObligatoryMarxist]Saying that it’s politically motivated is one thing – it clearly is, and good. Saying it’s co-ordinated is quite another, is it seriously that incomprehensible to you that ordinary people might identify the government and parties in power and the ones on the right with the suffering they’re facing?

    Not incomprehensible, just implausible, given the Facebook group “National Party billboard makeovers” organised vandalism, and the campaign organised by two Greens hangers-on in the 2011 election. Basically, the left have history in this sort of thing. That’s fact.

    There is no co-ordinated campaign to vandalise National/Act party billboards. More than any other parties these two represent the interests and aspirations of the unelected ruling elite. As obligatorymarxist points out the defacing of those billboards is real democracy in action as opposed to the officially accepted façade.
    Its as if the far right cannot accept that people have been so sorely damaged by the economic prescription offered by the Key regime they would spontaneously lash out at symbols representative of that persecution, instead the right extreme need to invent an elaborate fantasy about some politically orchestrated campaign.
    In this instance Occam’s razor holds sway.

    [obligatorymarxist]I find it quite interesting that those on the right see billboard vandalism as an attack on democracy – I see it as the opposite, as a powerful expression of democracy. […] Yet people on the right seem to believe fervently that democracy comes about only through official, approved channels controlled by a select, small group of people.

    The way “you see it” doesn’t change what it is. If you’re trying to stifle dissenting voices, that is the very antithesis of democracy. As the quote famously attributed to Voltaire goes: “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”

    The National party, the Act party and the Conservative party are not dissenting voices, these are the voices of the corporate and traditional elite establishments of New Zealand. Their voices are never silent, we are bombarded by their message 24/7. The vandalism of their billboards is a manifestation of “…dissenting voices…” transformed to political action.

    [oblgatorymarxist]Billboards and ‘official’ election advertising is done in and by a realm that the majority of people don’t have access to …

    This is an even more feeble argument. People have greater access to expression now than they ever have – you are using a very powerful form of expression right now – social media. Ironically, I can’t say the same for many left-wing supporter blogs. Dissent is frequently banned outright (which in this case they are entitled to do because people are free to set up their own blogs – but it’s rich to say that suppressing right-wing views promotes democracy when left-wing supporters are free to come to blogs like KB and foment their own forms of happy mischief). Billboards are just another form of expression, and there’s nothing wrong with that as long as dissenting views (expressed using their own resources) aren’t suppressed.

    Completely untrue, adze. One need only witness the reaction to the news of Kim Dotcom committing resources to ousting the Key government by those on this blog and others. They know democracy illusion costs a lot of money to maintain and an opposing concentration of capital could be a serious threat to the carefully manufactured ‘consent’. No surprises that the right-wing ideologues infesting the Labour party are also out to get Mana/Internet party and the Greens.

    There is a corporate dogma to which ‘acceptable’ political voices are expected to adhere, within this paradigm there is a permissible limit to dissent – the mainstream media/Labour generally do not test that limit. Beyond permissible political discourse is where you will find those questioning, among other ideas, things like the legitimacy of the corporate takeover of public institutions. The ideas and voices that are systematically suppressed are those considered a threat to corporate rule.

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  52. Bill (94 comments) says:

    http://www.shottonhallschool.co.uk/teaching-school/specialist-leaders-of-education-sles/steve-taylor#/teaching-school/specialist-leaders-of-education-sles/steve-taylor

    Is this the Steve Taylor who is running in New Lynn? Impressive Academy.

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  53. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    “It only proves you have no clue what you are talking about and do not have the knowledge or intellect to engage in debate.

    Issuing a series of baseless and bland assertions is not debating. As for the point, I’ve dealt with it many times before and I am not going to keep doing that just for the sake of some brain dead thick as three short planks uneducated troll.

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  54. waikatogirl (625 comments) says:

    You are right OneTrack, lefties seem to believe that whatever comes out of their mouths is gospel. If you don’t agree with them there is something wrong with you/us. Never does it enter their minds that there are other relevant justified points of view.
    Life is what you make it. Most of us have something or lots to overcome. Life is not easy for anyone, but you brush yourself off and try again and again. Keeping a sense of humor is a help.

    Speaking of which: No Johnboy, not a lesbian!! Maybe that sort of comment is why you have trouble connecting with the ladies! Shout out to all the lesbians, just not my thing.

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  55. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    I read that comment in the same voice that Charlton Heston used when he told the Israelites about the stone tablets Red.

    Thank you for that! :)

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  56. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    No problem connecting with the ladies waikatogirl. 200% lambing at Johnboys last year! :)

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  57. holysheet (424 comments) says:

    I bet they were all toothless old wooly fuckers too, johnboy

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  58. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    No tooth wethers suck best holysheet! :)

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  59. ShawnLH (5,675 comments) says:

    @ Red

    “Issuing a series of baseless and bland assertions is not debating.”

    I didn’t, you did in claiming your one tenth assertion. That has no basis. I’m challenging that baseless assertion, and that IS debating.

    “As for the point, I’ve dealt with it many times before and I am not going to keep doing that just for the sake of some brain dead thick as three short planks uneducated troll.”

    So your a liar. You claim that only those parties that advocate your one tenth claim are legitimate, then when asked for evidence you cannot provide any, so you hide behind the lie that you have supposedly dealt with this before.

    So, let me make this very clear Red.

    BULLSHIT.

    You cannot back up your claim because you just pulled it out of your ass. It’s utterly baseless. Then when confronted with your lie you try, rather sadly, to assert your superior education, despite the fact that I just wiped the floor with your ass on that score.

    You’re not educated Red. You have repeatedly shown no clue as to the history and diversity of thought of the conservative right. I doubt you have even read much in the way of actual books on the subject. Your “education” as far as I can tell is just trolling around right wing web sites and nothing more.

    You pick up a few ideas, some legitimate, some half assed, some just plain dumb, then claim that these ideas alone are true blue and true right, and proceed to abuse anyone who disagrees and claim that anyone who does is a commie prog.

    Your not a credible spokesman for the Right. Idiots like you do far more damage than good.

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  60. holysheet (424 comments) says:

    and how do you get 200% lambing from wethers?
    Me thinks you are full of shit, johnboy

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  61. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    As I have always stated holysheet. “All my sheep are virtual”. :)

    Well done for spotting it though. I wondered how long it would take for a true genius to pop up on KB! :)

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  62. ShawnLH (5,675 comments) says:

    @ Yoza

    “There is no co-ordinated campaign to vandalise National/Act party billboards.”

    Clearly there is. Lying is not a good way to make a point.

    “More than any other parties these two represent the interests and aspirations of the unelected ruling elite.”

    Bullshit. They represent middle New Zealand. You on the other hand, represent a tiny minority of hard leftists who despise middle NZ and set yourselves up as the “true elite.”

    “The vandalism of their billboards is a manifestation of “…dissenting voices…” transformed to political action.”

    Bullshit again Yoza. The vandalism is a manifestation of an arrogant and elitist hard left who believe that they and they alone have the right to break the law in order to impose their views on others. Because the majority of New Zealanders think your mob are dangerous nutjobs, rather than accept that democratic outcome, you and your ilk think that your rejection by middle NZ is a reason to spit on real democracy and engage in violence to get your way.

    It’s thuggery, nothing more. The actions of childish and petulant thugs who think their sad and failed political ideology gives them more rights than other Kiwis.

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  63. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    @yoza Are you a drama or film student? That sounds like a romantic movie script about some hero “fighting the man” than anything based on any fact. Allies nicely with a lot of communist propoganda too.

    Name one policy that Key introduced that has been a “sorely damag[ing] … economic prescription”.

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  64. holysheet (424 comments) says:

    Aw shucks, johnboy now you are making me blush. Never been called a genius before. High praise indeed.

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  65. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    No doubt about you holysheet. Most of these dumb bastards actually think I’m a farmer! :)

    Only because I told them I was once! :)

    How could a chap of tender sensibility such as myself have anything to do with stinky animals and their poo I ask you? :)

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  66. waikatogirl (625 comments) says:

    Good news about National in Sth Auck today. So much for damaging all those right wing billboards. Must be a disappointing effort you left wing vandals.

    Johnboy, you need some friendly advice before any more woolly dates… Wethers are castrated young males (maybe you already knew that?) lol.

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  67. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Who me?

    Don’t be silly waikatogirl! :)

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  68. Steve Wrathall (284 comments) says:

    Some parties have obviously been subjected to co-ordinated hoarding attacks. Others self-vandalize with unbelievable placement: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152246710057466&set=a.10150173316927466.299538.696207465&type=1&theater

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  69. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    “despite the fact that I just wiped the floor with your ass on that score.”

    See what I mean about worthless assertions?

    Here you are “debating” and you seek to appoint yourself as arbitrator at the same time.

    Utterly hopeless.

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  70. adze (2,129 comments) says:

    Yoza:

    There is no co-ordinated campaign to vandalise National/Act party billboards. More than any other parties these two represent the interests and aspirations of the unelected ruling elite. As obligatorymarxist points out the defacing of those billboards is real democracy in action as opposed to the officially accepted façade.

    Yes, this is the claim being repeated. But it has no supporting argument. Real democracy in action lies in advocacy and getting the message out – and of course voting in a fair election. As for Occam’s Razor, I have already shown that the left has history in this regard – not all defacements and destruction will be orchestrated (some are just tagging), but there is good reason to suspect based on established history and other examples like the Facebook group that a good portion of it is.

    The National party, the Act party and the Conservative party are not dissenting voices, these are the voices of the corporate and traditional elite establishments of New Zealand.

    They are dissenting voices from the point of view of the left, which represents a significant chunk of NZ politics. This is not controversial. Arguably, many left-wing values are part of mainstream NZ consciousness. But if you prefer, substitute “opposing” for “dissenting”; the difference is only in the point of view.

    The vandalism of their billboards is a manifestation of “…dissenting voices…” transformed to political action.

    Political action it may be, but it is not a democratic instinct being followed. Democracy is the contest of ideas, not on which group can silence their opponents the most effectively. You might argue that attempts to silence other voices exist already, and I might not argue with you there – but that isn’t a reason to support the practice only when it suits.

    Does this look like democracy to you? http://i.imgur.com/8q69UPv.jpg
    I didn’t get that photo from Whaleoil or some other website, by the way. I took it myself while walking home from work.

    One need only witness the reaction to the news of Kim Dotcom committing resources to ousting the Key government by those on this blog and others. They know democracy illusion costs a lot of money to maintain and an opposing concentration of capital could be a serious threat to the carefully manufactured ‘consent’.

    Yes, the amount of resources one has to promote a particular view is significant, no argument. But with MMP, as imperfect as it is, we have one of the best systems in the world to mitigate the self-reinforcing effects of that. Parties like the Greens and NZ First could not get as large as they had under an FPP model.

    As for Dotcom, both people on the right and some on the left react negatively to his efforts because of the very reasonable suspicion that he has ulterior and/or personal motives; they object to what they see as an extremely cynical device in the form of the Internet Party and its (temporary) alliance with Mana.
    And yet it is an expedient contradiction that many others on the left are so tolerant of a megalomaniac, super-rich capitalist with a criminal history trying to cynically influence our country’s democratic process when they have spent the best part of a decade railing against John Key due to his money trading background. This in spite of the fact that his government could be considered barely right-wing at all, having preserved most of the welfare benefits granted under previous governments.

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  71. Griff (8,165 comments) says:

    How unusual redblather when pressed has no more content then empty soundbites he can not substantiate
    At 10% of expenditure
    Red must mean transfer things like health to the private sector
    We all know how that works just look at the usa GDP% for health care and the outcomes.
    Stupid facts get in the way retarded one.

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  72. Redbaiter (9,509 comments) says:

    Johnboy- sorry to take so long to respond to your question about TrueblueNZ. I was on my phone before. I don’t update it often for two reasons-

    1) Once has to be pretty committed timewise to run a blog on a regular basis and I just don’t have that time. Commenting on twitter or other blogs is a good alternative because you’re not pushed into any daily commitment. You can do it when you like.

    2) I’m not that interested in blogging anymore. I only write when I feel I have something I feel strongly about.

    Hope that satisfies your curiosity.

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  73. nasska (11,788 comments) says:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/o8oi5uycm7v3tk0/Baity%208.jpg?dl=0

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  74. laworder (292 comments) says:

    Yoza wrote

    As obligatorymarxist points out the defacing of those billboards is real democracy in action as opposed to the officially accepted façade.

    So I’ll ask you the same question I asked obligatorymarxist – imagine that you had spent all day as a volunteer for Greens/ Mana / whatever your preferred flavour is on the left, putting up billboards. You go out for an evening meal after a hard days unpaid work, and on the way home see that every single billboard you spent all day putting up has been vandalised or destroyed by righties.

    Still see that as “real democracy in action”?

    Regards
    Peter J

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  75. Yoza (1,906 comments) says:

    labrator (1,824 comments) says:
    August 24th, 2014 at 4:11 pm

    @yoza Are you a drama or film student?

    Builder

    That sounds like a romantic movie script about some hero “fighting the man” than anything based on any fact. Allies nicely with a lot of communist propoganda too.

    I’m not sure any committed dissidents worry about being seen to ‘stick it to the man’, most see the main process as one of education through exposing the more sinister aspects of the system – Nicky Hager’s Dirty Politics is the most recent and successful example of this strategy.

    Name one policy that Key introduced that has been a “sorely damag[ing] … economic prescription”.

    The privatisation of public services like the power companies for one, the privatisation of the prison system for another. Ratcheting up GST to help pay for tax cuts for the wealthy. Dealing to the Labour voting ‘scum’ who survived the earthquake in Christchurch. Turning the screws on primary health care providers.
    Although, Labour is only the lesser of two evils.

    laworder (276 comments) says:
    August 24th, 2014 at 7:26 pm

    Yoza wrote

    As obligatorymarxist points out the defacing of those billboards is real democracy in action as opposed to the officially accepted façade.

    So I’ll ask you the same question I asked obligatorymarxist – imagine that you had spent all day as a volunteer for Greens/ Mana / whatever your preferred flavour is on the left, putting up billboards. You go out for an evening meal after a hard days unpaid work, and on the way home see that every single billboard you spent all day putting up has been vandalised or destroyed by righties.

    Still see that as “real democracy in action”?

    Regards
    Peter J

    I’m with Emma Goldman on that score, “If voting changed anything, they’d make it illegal.” I wouldn’t be putting up billboards in the first place. I always vote, but I would not be so stupid as to delude myself into believing our ‘democratic’ system is going to deliver anything remotely resembling a democratic society.

    ShawnLH (4,352 comments) says:
    August 24th, 2014 at 4:10 pm

    Because the majority of New Zealanders think your mob are dangerous nutjobs, rather than accept that democratic outcome, you and your ilk think that your rejection by middle NZ is a reason to spit on real democracy and engage in violence to get your way.

    ‘Middle New Zealand’ supported the white supremacist regime in apartheid South Africa, the Vietnam War, nuclear ship visits from the US, the persecution of homosexuals, the use of police violence to attend to Treaty of Waitangi grievances.
    I wouldn’t get too comfortable with the belief systems of ‘middle New Zealand’, there Shawn.

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  76. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    @yoza Thanks for the reply. It makes me wonder how would you described yourself politically? An anarchist?

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  77. ChardonnayGuy (1,211 comments) says:

    Disgraceful. While I think Taylor is a twit, this incident seems to have endangered his family. I have no hesitation in condemning this attack on freedom of expression and political speech.

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  78. Steve Taylor (211 comments) says:

    Hi CharonnayGuy:

    Thanks for the support (I think).

    Twitting is, as twitting does.

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  79. laworder (292 comments) says:

    ChardonnayGuy wrote

    Disgraceful. While I think Taylor is a twit, this incident seems to have endangered his family. I have no hesitation in condemning this attack on freedom of expression and political speech.

    Yes, this goes beyond just billboard vandalism, it is property damage wilful destruction and potential endangerment of lives. Personally I have great respect for Steve Taylor (he has been instrumental in taking down notorious fraudster and sex offender Grant Norman King) but even if you dont, ChardonnayGuy has taken a position of integrity that I cannot see how anyone could disagree with.

    I’d like to know what Yoza and Obligatorymarxist’s views are on the particular incident described – the setting alight of Steve Taylor’s billboards while they were on a trailer attached to his car parked outside his home.

    Regards
    Peter J

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  80. Yoza (1,906 comments) says:

    laworder (277 comments) says:
    August 25th, 2014 at 11:47 am

    I’d like to know what Yoza and Obligatorymarxist’s views are on the particular incident described – the setting alight of Steve Taylor’s billboards while they were on a trailer attached to his car parked outside his home.

    I would say this was mindlessly violent and I’m sorry I didn’t condemn this particular act earlier.

    labrator (1,829 comments) says:
    August 25th, 2014 at 12:34 am

    @yoza Thanks for the reply. It makes me wonder how would you described yourself politically? An anarchist?

    Anarchist, Libertarian socialist, I think people are generally smarter and far less mercenary than the powers that be demand of them.

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  81. Yoza (1,906 comments) says:

    adze (1,962 comments) says:
    August 24th, 2014 at 5:14 pm

    …not all defacements and destruction will be orchestrated (some are just tagging), but there is good reason to suspect based on established history and other examples like the Facebook group that a good portion of it is.

    I think there may be some orchestrated vandalism, but I think the vast majority of incidents are more likely carried out by a systematically marginalised underclass. I believe these defaced billboards are harbingers of a social unrest that is a direct consequence of an economic paradigm which ensures large swathes of society are reduced to mindless subjects of faceless corporate overlords.

    They are dissenting voices from the point of view of the left, which represents a significant chunk of NZ politics.

    I would argue that for someone to be a dissenting voice they would need to be questioning the established social/political/economic order. It would be hard to describe anyone in Act, National, The Conservatives, NZ First, United Future, or the Labour party as dissenters, they are spokespeople for the powerful and see themselves more as population managers, these people seem to be generally hard wired to defer to power than to question its legitimacy.

    Political action it may be, but it is not a democratic instinct being followed. Democracy is the contest of ideas, not on which group can silence their opponents the most effectively. You might argue that attempts to silence other voices exist already, and I might not argue with you there – but that isn’t a reason to support the practice only when it suits.

    The entire system exists to amplify the messages of privilege while silencing its victims and it is remarkably effective. These damaged hoardings are, more than likely, the consequence of the anger that manifests from the frustration caused by an all encompassing narrative that bears very little resemblance to the reality experienced by a growing disenfranchised underclass.

    As for Dotcom, both people on the right and some on the left react negatively to his efforts because of the very reasonable suspicion that he has ulterior and/or personal motives; they object to what they see as an extremely cynical device in the form of the Internet Party and its (temporary) alliance with Mana.
    And yet it is an expedient contradiction that many others on the left are so tolerant of a megalomaniac, super-rich capitalist with a criminal history trying to cynically influence our country’s democratic process when they have spent the best part of a decade railing against John Key due to his money trading background. This in spite of the fact that his government could be considered barely right-wing at all, having preserved most of the welfare benefits granted under previous governments.

    Dotcom has exposed the supplicant nature of New Zealand’s justice system in its dealings with the US authorities. There is a level of collusion with and deference to US authority that should alarm anyone who believes in our independence. Dotcom’s reluctant fight against foreign corporate arrogance is in stark contrast to Key’s obsequious fawning. Far from being left-wing, Key and his Labour party contemporaries understand their personal ambitions and positions of privilege are intertwined with the foreign corporate domination of New Zealand’s political and economic terrain.

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  82. Steve Taylor (211 comments) says:

    Now, these look interesting:

    http://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hunting-shooting/other/auction-770416721.htm

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  83. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    Anarchist, Libertarian socialist, I think people are generally smarter and far less mercenary than the powers that be demand of them.

    Thanks for the reply. I look forward to reading your future contributions with a better understanding of your political persuasion.

    Now, these look interesting:

    http://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hunting-shooting/other/auction-770416721.htm

    That’s what I was referring to in my first comment. I can’t believe they haven’t been used already. Sorry to hear of the attack on your property, it’s inexcusable and I hope the culprits are caught.

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  84. adze (2,129 comments) says:

    Yoza:

    I think there may be some orchestrated vandalism, but I think the vast majority of incidents are more likely carried out by a systematically marginalised underclass. I believe these defaced billboards are harbingers of a social unrest that is a direct consequence of an economic paradigm which ensures large swathes of society are reduced to mindless subjects of faceless corporate overlords.

    This is class warfare rhetoric, lampooned so well by Monty Python in Life of Brian: “Ah, now you’re seeing the violence inherent in the system! Help help, I’m being oppressed!” The problem is that it actually takes a lot for genuine social unrest; since nationhood, I think we have experienced it perhaps twice in any major way. For these defacement campaigns to be anything more than they appear, I would expect to see signs of it outside of an election. But as I have said more than once, elements on the left have history with this stuff. They also have a motive to make it appear “grass roots” – Occam’s Razor.

    I would argue that for someone to be a dissenting voice they would need to be questioning the established social/political/economic order.

    Well, that’s interesting, because there’s a strong argument that many of the values of the left and the human rights movement of the 60s and 70s are already mainstream – at least in progressive liberal western countries like this one.

    The entire system exists to amplify the messages of privilege while silencing its victims and it is remarkably effective. These damaged hoardings are, more than likely, the consequence of the anger that manifests from the frustration caused by an all encompassing narrative

    Again, I would ask to see more reliable evidence of this than vandalised election hoardings. You might also want to define the extent of what you consider “silencing”. Does this include public critical analysis?
    No doubt that there are those who for whatever reason have been disenfranchised by “the system”. Yet there is little to suggest they are more than a small minority, and I doubt any system would eliminate such a group entirely. Demonstrably, most feel the country is going in the right direction and even the left acknowledge that the current PM is one of the most popular in history. Yet I get from people who adopt revolutionary rhetoric a feeling that they seek disorder and revolution, like a fundamentalist Christian seeks vindication in the end of days. It seems naive and regressive to me.

    Dotcom has exposed the supplicant nature of New Zealand’s justice system in its dealings with the US authorities. There is a level of collusion with and deference to US authority that should alarm anyone who believes in our independence. Dotcom’s reluctant fight against foreign corporate arrogance is in stark contrast to Key’s obsequious fawning.

    It’s easy to be so idealistic. But the world isn’t simple. Like many, I actually had sympathy for Dotcom during the raids and subsequent extradition proceedings. There’s an argument that what he was doing was more than agnostic file hosting, and that his business model was fraudulent on that basis, but the raids were over the top. Yet any sympathy I had for Dotcom has now gone. He’s very clever, but he is cynical, manipulative, vindictive and narcissistic. His own former bodyguard has given evidence as to his true nature. And I don’t think he is doing NZ any favours.

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  85. Yoza (1,906 comments) says:

    adze (1,970 comments) says:
    August 25th, 2014 at 11:07 pm

    This is class warfare rhetoric, lampooned so well by Monty Python in Life of Brian: “Ah, now you’re seeing the violence inherent in the system! Help help, I’m being oppressed!”

    That was from Monty Python ‘The Search for the Holy Grail’

    The whole point of the skit was the uneducated peasant questioning the self appointed king’s legitimacy. It was a very class conscious observation of the nature of authority and how feeble its validity becomes when exposed to the most cursory scrutiny.

    “Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony”

    Well, that’s interesting, because there’s a strong argument that many of the values of the left and the human rights movement of the 60s and 70s are already mainstream – at least in progressive liberal western countries like this one.

    As a direct consequence of political activity outside the parliamentary process, through activism and mass movements that were seen as such a threat to the established order they were necessarily co-opted. In totalitarian societies such movements can be easily snuffed out with state violence, Western democracies can only rely on using state violence against dissenting voices up to a certain point – there is a far greater reliance on sophisticated propaganda exercises.

    Again, I would ask to see more reliable evidence of this than vandalised election hoardings. You might also want to define the extent of what you consider “silencing”. Does this include public critical analysis?

    Public relations companies exist to ensure nothing interferes with their paymasters profiteering, the corporate sector does not spend billions on ‘communicating’ to the public for that message to be diluted by those who question the legitimacy of corporate rule. Although there is public critical analysis it is marginalised and kept well away from mainstream outlets.

    No doubt that there are those who for whatever reason have been disenfranchised by “the system”. Yet there is little to suggest they are more than a small minority, and I doubt any system would eliminate such a group entirely.

    Precisely because those who are critical of the system are marginalised and the vast majority of the population are subjected to a deluge of marketing messages and corporate PR campaigns the illusion of docility is tenuously maintained. People are not disenfranchised because they are not allowed to vote, people in New Zealand are disenfranchised because the act of voting is one aspect of a carefully constructed charade designed to provide the illusion of participation in a system that inherently reduces the majority to passive subjects.

    Demonstrably, most feel the country is going in the right direction and even the left acknowledge that the current PM is one of the most popular in history.

    So we are back to watery tarts throwing swords at people. The democratic process needs to be more than a pale reflection of an X-Factor style popularity contest. Key’s ability to manipulate people through the corporate media is hardly the basis for a system of government when the message Key pedals is never subject to serious scrutiny, he is an ideal candidate to lead a PR campaign masquerading as a government.

    Yet I get from people who adopt revolutionary rhetoric a feeling that they seek disorder and revolution, …

    Which seems odd as the overwhelming intent of actively dissenting groups is the demand for social justice and mass participation in the decision making process along with an end to the chaotic ‘Law of the Jungle’ style belligerence which characterises the current plutocratic control of society.

    It’s easy to be so idealistic.

    No, it isn’t. It is easy to accept the status quo without question, idealism is hard work.

    But the world isn’t simple.

    As the ‘Annoying Peasant’ skit demonstrates, promoting the illusion of authority isn’t simple in the face a reasonable scrutiny.

    Like many, I actually had sympathy for Dotcom during the raids and subsequent extradition proceedings.

    I have little more than a sliver of sympathy for Dotcom, he gave Banks $50,000 and he just can’t keep his mouth shut. He did, however, expose New Zealand’s surveillance agencies to some much warranted investigation. And despite what the courts insist he appears to have exposed an unacceptable level of collusion between foreign US corporations, the US justice system, our elected representatives, our immigration department and our security and justice systems. I support Dotcom’s ongoing residence in New Zealand as a consequence of that service to the New Zealand public.

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  86. adze (2,129 comments) says:

    Yoza

    That was from Monty Python ‘The Search for the Holy Grail’

    Yes, I know – I was tired. I have the movie on DVD.

    The whole point of the skit was the uneducated peasant questioning the self appointed king’s legitimacy. It was a very class conscious observation of the nature of authority and how feeble its validity becomes when exposed to the most cursory scrutiny.

    I think you are reading it one-dimensionally. The point of Python is to intelligently yet absurdly take the piss out of every sacred cow. They took the mickey equally out of both conservatives and radicals (“splitters!”). The joke of that skit I described was that the anarchist (stereotype) uses confirmation bias to see the world as a threatening place, seeing any use of force, as evidence of societal repression. Whereas the King, while he wasn’t used to having his authority questioned, was nonetheless trying to move on, and just wanted him to stop getting in his face and being an annoying prat.

    As a direct consequence of political activity outside the parliamentary process, through activism and mass movements that were seen as such a threat to the established order they were necessarily co-opted. In totalitarian societies such movements can be easily snuffed out with state violence, Western democracies can only rely on using state violence against dissenting voices up to a certain point – there is a far greater reliance on sophisticated propaganda exercises.

    And yet even in the presence of propaganda, western liberal democracies adopt those changes when the ideas become normalised, as counter-culture has done. So we have seen a number of “soft revolutions” over generations. More evidence that violent and radical revolutions are, and should be, a mode of last resort.

    So we are back to watery tarts throwing swords at people. The democratic process needs to be more than a pale reflection of an X-Factor style popularity contest.

    Who said it was? Popularity in politics doesn’t come about solely on the basis of personality. It’s also about credibility. Key has shown himself to be an effective and competent manager, if not leader. He is continuously portrayed by the left as a bogey man, even though we have had 6 years of his style of government and the world hasn’t ended (please don’t cite the partial asset sales – that is a feeble example). And then we get bizarre acts of frustration from the left like Tom Scott’s song, a perfect example of someone who can’t see past their own petty tribal hatred.

    I know you prefer a model of democracy that is distributed/anarchic in nature, but most people don’t (yet) like that idea. That’s democracy for you. Maybe at some point in the future people will be ready for such a model, if one is possible in a modern civilisation; but you can’t force them and neither should you.

    Which seems odd as the overwhelming intent of actively dissenting groups is the demand for social justice and mass participation in the decision making process along with an end to the chaotic ‘Law of the Jungle’ style belligerence which characterises the current plutocratic control of society.

    Yes, social justice. Because we have so little of it here. Especially compared to other countries. /s
    Look, I have an open mind about mass participation, but the model needs to be proven. Maybe something based around the open source software development process? Prove how it could work, then sell it. Hand-waving and rhetoric and endless negativity however is tiresome and pointless.

    [adze] It’s easy to be so idealistic.
    [Yoza]No, it isn’t. It is easy to accept the status quo without question, idealism is hard work.

    I stand by my comment. Idealism is easy because it is frequently based upon black and white thinking and ignorance. Making things work in a complex world full of incompatible cultures, systems and competing interests is hard. As in fucking hard. Idealism gives you passion and a vision, but that’s about it. The hard part comes in making it work, and unless you plan a totalitarian state, for that you need compromise and pragmatism.

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  87. Yoza (1,906 comments) says:

    adze (1,973 comments) says:
    August 26th, 2014 at 11:14 pm

    Whereas the King, while he wasn’t used to having his authority questioned, was nonetheless trying to move on, and just wanted him to stop getting in his face and being an annoying prat.

    You are watching an alternate version, the King attacks Dennis because he won’t stop taking the piss out of King Arthur’s claim to have sovereignty over all the Britons. Although Dennis is an annoying peasant it is Arthur who resorts to violence as a consequence of having the legitimacy of his authority questioned.


    ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Whose castle is that?

    WOMAN: King of the who?

    ARTHUR: The Britons.

    WOMAN: Who are the Britons?

    ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we’re all Britons and I am your king.

    WOMAN: I didn’t know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

    DENNIS: You’re fooling yourself. We’re living in a dictatorship. ….. A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes–

    WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.

    DENNIS: That’s what it’s all about if only people would–

    ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?

    WOMAN: No one lives there.

    ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?

    WOMAN: We don’t have a lord.

    ARTHUR: What?

    DENNIS: I told you. We’re an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.

    ARTHUR: Yes.

    DENNIS: But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.

    ARTHUR: Yes, I see.

    DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,–

    ARTHUR: Be quiet!

    DENNIS: –but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more–

    ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!

    WOMAN: Order, eh — who does he think he is?

    ARTHUR: I am your king!

    WOMAN: Well, I didn’t vote for you.

    ARTHUR: You don’t vote for kings.

    WOMAN: Well, ‘ow did you become king then?

    ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake, [angels sing] her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. [singing stops] That is why I am your king!

    DENNIS: Listen — strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

    ARTHUR: Be quiet!

    DENNIS: Well you can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just ’cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

    ARTHUR: Shut up!

    DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin’ I was an empereror just because some moistened bink had lobbed a scimitar at me they’d put me away!

    ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!

    And Arthur attacks Dennis


    DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.

    ARTHUR: Shut up!

    DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! — HELP! HELP! I’m being repressed!

    ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!

    DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that, eh?…. That’s what I’m on about — did you see him repressing me, you saw it didn’t you?

    I think you are over egging Key’s competence. We seem to be riding a wave of high milk powder prices and reaping a large liquidity influx from Christchurch insurance payouts, both conditions would have been experienced regardless of the flavour of suits controlling the Treasury benches. Key’s popularity seems to be the consequence of a carefully constructed personality cult swiped off the George W. Bush template. They both mimic idiosyncrasies of ordinary people and, when their opponents attack them for being dullards, reap the support of the majority who are being tarred with the same brush.

    One example I’ve noticed over at The Standard are commentators who like to make fun of the way John Key says “…actually…”, they pronounce it “ackshully” or something similar. They may think they are being clever lampooning Key’s mannerism, the trouble is this is how a great many people speak and the smug writers are inspiring the ‘stupid public’ to develop feelings of solidarity with Key, … which is quite laughable if you think of the circles in which Key moves compared with the social network of your average Kiwi.
    No-one fakes sincerity with the guile Key employs, he has no peer.

    I stand by my comment. Idealism is easy because it is frequently based upon black and white thinking and ignorance. Making things work in a complex world full of incompatible cultures, systems and competing interests is hard. As in fucking hard. Idealism gives you passion and a vision, but that’s about it. The hard part comes in making it work, and unless you plan a totalitarian state, for that you need compromise and pragmatism.

    I think you have this arse about face. Idealism is the norm, I believe idealism is one of those defining human characteristics that is responsible for the sophisticated social, political, economic, technological systems we employ today. There is no final victory for any specific socioeconomic paradigm, there is an ongoing evolution of the way we interact with one another and with those who wish to subject us to their authority.

    People, generally, are not that different. The difficulty begins when we are forced to confront establishment dogma that seeks to exploit those differences and blow them out of all proportion as a means of creating social divisions, it is always in the interests of concentrations of power to have divisions within those groups over which they exert authority.

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  88. adze (2,129 comments) says:

    Yoza:

    You are watching an alternate version, the King attacks Dennis because he won’t stop taking the piss out of King Arthur’s claim to have sovereignty over all the Britons. Although Dennis is an annoying peasant it is Arthur who resorts to violence as a consequence of having the legitimacy of his authority questioned.

    Yes, the King attacked him because he was being annoying, not just because his authority was being questioned. A lot of people would have at least felt like shaking the peasant under the same circumstances. I’m not sure that this point really needed a page of transcript and a linked video though :)

    As for Key, I think the way he handled the GFC was a classic example of pragmatism that the left don’t give him credit for. If he was a Richardson or a Douglass he would have slashed government spending instead of simply putting a ceiling on public sector budgets and borrowing for a year or so. Let’s wait and see as far as the economy goes.
    And personally, I think you are over-egging the Bush personality cult thing – I am skeptical that his mannerisms are carefully crafted. He is certainly a gifted reader of public sentiment, though, which is something his opponents are finally waking up to.

    There is no final victory for any specific socioeconomic paradigm, there is an ongoing evolution of the way we interact with one another and with those who wish to subject us to their authority.

    I agree with this sentence. And with that, I think I’m about done. Thanks for the discussion.
    Cheers

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