Cultural correctness on teacher training

August 14th, 2014 at 1:00 pm by David Farrar

John Ansell blogs the words of a recent teacher trainee:

As a recent graduate in secondary teaching, I have been invited to share my experiences of the teacher training I received.

I shall describe the cultural indoctrination to which trainee teachers are subjected and the flow-on effect this has on school culture and classroom learning.

I am aware of the risks involved in taking this action (my lecturers and classmates should have little trouble identifying me), but I hope that my example will encourage other teachers (and trainee teachers) to come forth and share their own experiences.

It is important that readers of this blog understand the hoops that trainee teachers are forced to jump through, and the limits on freedom of thought that are imposed from above.

Once upon a time education was about diversity of thought!

One of the essays that I had to write concerned the ‘roles and responsibilities of teachers and learners in the New Zealand classroom.’

The learning outcomes for this essay centred on biculturalism, te reo Maori and the historical, political, social and cultural influences on New Zealand schools.

Failure to satisfy the requirements for any one of these learning outcomes would necessitate a re-submission, and failure on the second attempt would mean failure for the course.

Frustrated by the indoctrination to which I had been subjected, I wrote critically about many of the issues we were expected to cover.

My intention was not to be provocative or incendiary, but to assess the issues in an objective, thoughtful and reasoned way.

When my essay was returned to me, I was shocked to discover that I had been given the lowest possible grade.

Even more distressing were the spiteful comments that appeared in the margin of my essay, accusing me of “monocultural ignorance” and of being “patronizing.”

The marker’s tone was defensive and censorial, as if I had no right to hold the views that I had expressed.

They were heresy I’m sure.

I was forced to resubmit the essay, exactly as they wanted it, expunged of all signs of a critical intellect.

It is a terrible thing to be conscripted into writing something that you do not believe, and for this to occur in a university environment is completely unacceptable.

Universities should welcome critical dissent, not squash it.

I don’t agree with all of the views of the teacher trainee. But views on Treaty issues should not be a litmus test for who can be a teacher.

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192 Responses to “Cultural correctness on teacher training”

  1. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    It’s impossible to make a judgement without reading the student’s essay.

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  2. redqueen (562 comments) says:

    Hardly unsurprising. Racism is well engrained in many areas of our (education) system and if you disagree with them, you’re obviously a ‘monoculturalist’!

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  3. Odakyu-sen (652 comments) says:

    Universities should welcome critical dissent, not squash it.

    +1

    When I read the article, my irony meter buried its needle in the red zone.

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  4. OneTrack (3,093 comments) says:

    “Universities should welcome critical dissent, not squash it.”

    That was the old way of doing things. We are much more progressive now.

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  5. Manolo (13,767 comments) says:

    Long live diversity, independence of thought, contrariness, and skepticism!

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  6. wf (441 comments) says:

    Caught up with nursing training I see.

    Political correctness over all.

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  7. mandk (993 comments) says:

    @ mikenmild

    No, we haven’t seen the essay. But my wife, who went through teacher-training about 8 years ago, says she had to suffer the same indoctrination as this trainee.

    My wife’s approach was to keep her head down, spout the necessary PC-bollocks when required, and just get through the course. As a student, she was powerless to argue with the malign cultural Marxists.

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  8. OneTrack (3,093 comments) says:

    redqueen – “…. you’re obviously a ‘monoculturalist’”

    No, in that case, you are obviously a heretic, failing to follow the dogma of the scripture. You need more re-education. A camp may be provided shortly (September 21).

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  9. Ross12 (1,425 comments) says:

    It is not just cultural issues this happens with. One of my nieces studied early childhood education –she got really frustrated by about midway through her second year when she realised that to get a good grade all she had to do was churn out what her lecturers “believed in” –putting her own thoughts and independent research in was just a waste of time. It applied to most of the papers she studied.

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  10. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    This is very very disturbing…my extremely bright 13 year old daughter goes to high school next year…I am already bracing myself for the contents of “Maori life and customs” which is a compulsory part of the curriculum…I have little doubt that it will be heavy on the harmony with the environment, aroha and stick games which supposedly characterized pre-European Maori life, and once over lightly – if at all – on cannabilism, slaves heads tattooed to order, and infanticide as population control.

    Because of course I want her to pass well, there will have to be “what you tell the teacher” and “what really happened” for this subject. I have already told her that much as I disagree with it, if she thinks there is any chance she might want to work in the public service – and who can guess ones future at 13 – she may like to consider learning Maori. If some knowledge of that dying language is not already a pre-requisite for public service jobs, it soon will be.

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  11. peterwn (3,271 comments) says:

    Nothing new. The teachers college at Karori, Wellington had a policy of not offering places to those who had been to private schools, as they were considered ‘unsuited’ to be teachers.

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  12. Huevon (222 comments) says:

    Yes it’s true that universities are bastions of leftism and Teachers’ Colleges are the darkest, most deranged faculties of all, wherein presides the Lord of Lies himself. Yes, we know…

    Whatever he wrote in his essay, however well-reasoned it was and supported by sound evidence, he was never going to change the opinion of the leftist apparatchik who was grading him. So, just tell them what they want to hear! Get qualified and get in front of real kids in a school! That is the most important thing. Scoring points off the sub-par Greenite in the university achieves nothing.

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  13. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Sounds like neo-apartheid.

    Time for charter schools.

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  14. RRM (9,920 comments) says:

    An interesting article.

    But then I made the mistake of reading on.

    I hate to be that guy who plays the “that’s wacist!” card… but it is abundantly clear that John Ansell simply doesn’t like the Maoris at all… and all his fine words about enlightenment, humanity and the like are mere window dressing:

    http://treatygate.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/teacher-training-maori-aesthetic-all-gargoyles-and-no-angels.png?w=500&h=281

    Seriously, what the hell is the point of that image?

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  15. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    I hope John Ansell warned this apparent ingenue that they will undoubtedly also meet during their lifespan unreasonable employers, supervisors, bureaucrats, traffic policemen, boyfriends/girlfriends and a host of other such types. “Hell is other people.”

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  16. mister nui (1,028 comments) says:

    It’s impossible to make a judgement without reading the student’s essay.

    DPF, John Ansell, without compromising what is left of the student’s anonymity, is there any chance of getting his original essay and posting it on Scribd, or similar, for us all to see.

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  17. Uncompetency (13 comments) says:

    When I did LAW101, Legal Systems, at the University of Auckland, I had Jane Kelsey as my lecturer for the second half of the course (cringe-inducingly titled “Society and the Law”). She told us in our last class before the exam, “don’t write just what you think I want to hear in the exam. Trust me, I know the flaws in my arguments better than anyone”.

    The exam question turned out to be one on whether the then-impending new Supreme Court should have a permanent judge appointed who was an expert on tikanga Maori. I wrote what I like to think was a forceful but reasoned, tolerant but logical essay saying that it shouldn’t. She gave me an A. My respect for her increased that day (to my surprise she had actually been a very good lecturer and surprisingly objective in her teaching despite her personal views being well known to the class from other sources).

    Lecturers and so-called educators who are unable to look past their own blinkered view of life to assess an answer on its own merits have no place in our education system.

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  18. mister nui (1,028 comments) says:

    David Garrett, why not send your daughter to a charter school?

    As an ACT backer, I would’ve thought you would be keen to do so? Hopefully there are more around by the time my young ones hit high school, giving me diversity of choice.

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  19. wiseowl (893 comments) says:

    This is actually too serious to pass off and dismiss as too late to tackle or whatever.
    It’s dam serious and this has happened under National ,has become more ingrained under National and should have been stopped in it’s tracks.

    The wallahs in Wellington sitting on their shiny arses have no idea what this educational indoctrination is doing to New Zealand and I will take my hat off to the first National MP who will be brave enough ,have the IF to speak out about this unacceptable, dishonest imprint distorting our education programme.

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  20. flash2846 (284 comments) says:

    Went through a similar experience at uni. Probably the most powerless I have felt since age four.

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  21. Nigel Kearney (1,013 comments) says:

    Professional training is not really compatible with the sort of original and critical thinking we want universities to encourage. When I see a doctor, I’d prefer that their ability to graduate depended on doing things the way the instructor wanted even if that meant ‘limits on freedom of thought that are imposed from above’.

    The problem is not lack of academic freedom, it is that they are teaching stuff that is just mindless crap.

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  22. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Time for charter schools.

    Which will employ trained teachers for most positions, right? For example, the teacher who’s the subject of this post?

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  23. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    Mister nui: Fair question…Firstly I don’t have the money…things have been pretty difficult these last few years. Secondly, we live out in the country – and we love it our here – so any school other than the local one would be a logistical challenge, especially as my daughter plays ever sport she can…so after hours practices would make for very long days for her. Thirdly, by happy coincidence, Kaipara College is in the top five in Greater Auckland for academic achievement at NCEA level 3

    If I lived in town a Charter School would definitely be a consideration.

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  24. SGA (1,028 comments) says:

    @dpf

    Once upon a time education was about diversity of thought!

    Sometimes in some places by some teachers.

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  25. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    I’m generally supportive of the Treaty and Maori issues. Not on every issue, but generally.

    But nobody should be forced, under any circumstances, to regurgitate someone else’s political views to get a passing grade, especially teacher trainees who need to be able to demonstrate both political independence and independent thinking.

    This sort of carry on is wrong and should be stopped.

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  26. Fletch (6,387 comments) says:

    The wife of a friend went through teachers training college and she had to quit because of all the propaganda they are forced into.

    I went for a job in the 1990s at a technical institute (not teaching) and they told me the school was committed to treaty principles etc, and what did I think about it? I told them that I pretty much believed in treating everyone the same. Needless to say, I didn’t get the job.

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  27. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    I’ve seen the essay. His “error” was to tell the truth about Treatifarianism and the falsification of New Zealand history, and to advocate strongly for civilisation over primitivism.

    It wasn’t racist. It was the opposite of racist.

    Calling for racial equality is heresy in today’s Maoricentric education system, even though 80% of their customers (according to at least twelve polls about all aspects of racial favouritism) are heartily sick of the relentless indulgence of all things Maori.

    It is long overdue for sensible New Zealanders – including non-radicalised Maori – to stand up to the evil forced indoctrination of teachers and children. It is obscene that it happens in the name of education. Its perpetrators are, at best, smarmy useful idiots, and, at worst, traitors to civilisation and the human race – surely the only race that counts.

    It is anti-human to favour any one race. And if we were to do that, why would we choose the least successful – perhaps the only one in the world whose culture has such an unhealthy focus on ugliness, violence and insults? That is not a culture we should be using to promote a peaceful, friendly country.

    Yes, it’s unique. No, it’s not OK.

    I realise this is hard to hear for Maori. But someone’s got to say it.

    Once your ancestors were persuaded to give up cannibalism and slavery. That was a good call. (Similar to the British giving up witch-burning and hanging, drawing and quartering – and, of course, slavery too.)

    Now, in an age when we have an “It’s Not OK” campaign is aimed largely at a disproportionately violent Maori underclass, it’s surely time to consign the haka, the powhiri and other ugly, violent, insulting rituals to the dustbin of history. No other country in the world behaves like that.

    Ultimately, what Maori do is up to them. I’m just suggesting a rethink would be a good idea if they want the respect of their countrymen.

    But for everyone else, it’s high time we stopped inflicting this barbarism on children, as though it’s somehow normal.

    At the very least, we must expunge from the nation’s classrooms the false Treaty history and Geoffrey Palmer’s imaginary latter-day “Principles” (which should rightly be known as the Treaty of Wellington 1989).

    We cannot rely on politicians to lift a finger to help. They are selfish cowards. Or foolish. If Colin Craig wants to get into parliament, all he has to do is put up billboards with five words on them: BINDING REFERENDUM ON MAORI SEATS. Instant 5%. Will he? I doubt it.

    For the 80% of us who want a truly democratic, racially-neutral nation, we are all going to have to say “It’s Not OK” whenever we are confronted by racist nonsense of any kind.

    Because let’s be clear: The biggest enemy is not politicians, or Maori radicals. It’s us. It’s the “niceism” that infects ordinary New Zealanders. Too many of us would rather be nice and surrender our country than risk being called a nasty name. That is a disgrace to the memory of our parents and grandparents who fought for our freedom, and for civilisation.

    To get rid of the racism, we must defeat niceism.

    If you’re Maori, why not go forward with the rest of us into a bright, modern future, not back into a squalid and primitive past? Don’t be sucked in by leaders with an interest in keeping you dependent on them into the soft option of blaming the British for your people’s underperformance.

    The British gave you the keys to a golden future. Don’t squander that by pretending you own more of New Zealand than you do. New Zealanders are a fair people, and they can see when people go too far.

    The surest way of lifting your people’s spirits and standard of living is to work together with other New Zealanders and make primitivism history.

    As for our educators, it would just be nice if you could tell the truth, and stop punishing those who already do.

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  28. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  29. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    …is there any chance of getting his original essay…

    Men are still allowed to teach?

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  30. Ashley Schaeffer (487 comments) says:

    I am one of those who dropped out of teacher’s college (Karori) because of enforced cultural pandering bullshit like this as well as all the other left-wing bullshit they spout. Perhaps I should have stayed but I was looking ahead to being a full-time teacher and thinking to myself, how I am going to stand being surrounded by numpties like this my whole life?

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  31. Richard (857 comments) says:

    A large part of teacher training is box ticking. Treaty of Waitangi and biculturalism are part of that box ticking. Produce the standard essay and the box can then be ticked. Sadly this approach then gets applied by teachers once their in the classroom to students. Produce the standard essay and get the box ticked… and so on.

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  32. Kiwi Dave (89 comments) says:

    Nigel, I can’t be a 100 percent sure that it is mindless crap without seeing the course materials and requirements, but I suspect you are right. My very dated experience of Massey University education courses was that some were highly theoretical, obsessed with social context and generalities, far removed from classroom realities, and often treated as unimpeachable research and gospel truth of universal significance what was actually not much more than anecdotal evidence buttressed by lots of jargon and almost no large scale data.

    Our response to this sort of stuff in training colleges should be, “What reliable evidence have you that this improves learning outcomes for NZ students?” My guess is they have mostly dogma and speculation.

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  33. backster (2,171 comments) says:

    After all the grovelling apologies by the Police recently for doing their duty, nothing much surprises me anymore, especially when they take 90 officers to apologise to the Tuhoe,activists, having a few days earlier been humiliated into backing off from recovering a stolen body because they had not sufficient staff to enforce the court order to recover it.

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  34. Maggy Wassilieff (393 comments) says:

    I did my secondary teacher training in the mid 1990s and this emphasis on bicultural issues was standard.

    There was an assumption at first that all of the trainees were ignorant of Te Reo and Maoritanga, but it didn’t take too long to convince our lecturers that most of us were pretty comfortable (if not totally fluent) with incorporating a more holistic approach to our lesson plans.

    But what my training didn’t prepare me for was the reality of teaching to the wide cultural mix that makes up Wellington’s schools.
    At first I had no idea how to pronounce Ma’a; I didn’t know that a Muslim father wouldn’t shake my hand; I couldn’t communicate with my non-verbal intellectually handicapped form student; I lacked the inner gumption to explain to an orphaned refugee that he needed to wash more frequently, etc, etc.

    @ David Garrett…. don’t worry about cultural brainwashing of your teen-ager. Most modern-day kids have damn fine bs-detectors. As long as they go happily to school each day, they’ll be fine.

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  35. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    mikenmild, I really, really do not like behaviour that is ugly, violent and insulting. Do you? I also don’t like lies. Do you?

    I get on well with the Maori people I know, precisely because they don’t subscribe to this behaviour either.

    My real problem is not with the powhiri and the haka – though I certainly think they’re a bad look and totally unjustifiable in a peaceful world – it’s with the craven dishonesty of those who insist that well-meaning, kind-hearted teachers must either lie to our children or not teach.

    That is evil.

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  36. Nigel Kearney (1,013 comments) says:

    There was a great story in the Dom Post today about the Louise Nicholas movie. They quoted the director: “we were looking for what felt like the truth to us, what resonated as the truth to us and what felt like a human truth”.

    Unintentional self-parody: we were looking for the truth, where truth is defined as whatever we would like to believe.

    This is just the same. They don’t know or care whether any of it helps Maori kids learn, it’s enough that they would like to think it does.

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  37. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    I don’t have the guy’s permission to post the essay and he’s off the internet at the moment. He does hope to teach back in New Zealand one day so may feel he has said enough.

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  38. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    This is abysmal. Completely unacceptable.

    I donb’t think this stuff will ever change unless we get either an ACT or a Conservative minister of education (and I can’t see that happening in my lifetime).

    The “cultural Marxists” have well and truly won the culture wars with their “long march through the institutions”.

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  39. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    John Ansell
    Have another look at the photo RRM linked to on your blog. Care to explain what message you were trying to give there?

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  40. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    thor42
    I think you get bonus points for mentioning ‘cultural Marxists’.

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  41. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    The problem is that writing to MPs about this gets you nowhere.
    They will hand the email or letter off to some lower functionary and you will get a reply filled with soothing words – “there, there, don’t worry – everything will be fine.”

    I don’t know if the ombudsman would look at this so maybe we need an “education ombudsman”.

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  42. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Er, if this guy’s essay was anything like Ansell’s rant at 2.14, the mystery of how the course controller came to give him the lowest available mark is solved…

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  43. Unity (584 comments) says:

    Who on earth would want to be a teacher if they have to go through all that rubbish? It’s also long been in the nursing profession as well. Unless someone feels they can navigate their way through all this nonsense then they will be put off training in the first place. It could be that we miss out on potentially good teachers because of the deceit, our rewritten history and the force-feeding of all things Maori. All I can say is thank goodness my kids are past school age and now live in Australia. Their children won’t have to go through all of this. I would have had my work cut out educating them with the true facts.

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  44. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt: It wasn’t. It was the model of erudition and respectfulness. It just did not present the opinion that the Thought Police required.

    Mikenmild: I have posted several photos of Maori and Pakeha, male and female, looking exceedingly angry and threatening.

    In the name of culture.

    In an age when we are constantly told that getting ugly and violent is “Not OK.”

    That is the message I was trying to give.

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  45. Odakyu-sen (652 comments) says:

    I suspect that the young men and women who will be the good teachers and nurses of tomorrow are already well aware of the indoctrination programs in place, and will come up with strategies to deal with them. The pragmatic ones will get through by walking the walk and talking the talk, all the while secretly hating the system and vowing to teach their future students the value of thinking for themselves. (So in a way, the “training system” has only made them more resistant.)

    The more socially awkward students who are “dumb” enough to stick out will get thrashed into line or expelled. These individuals, although gifted, have shown their inability to deal with a no-win situation and have failed to come up with strategies to get around it. Maybe they are not so cut out to be teachers or nurses in the real, murky world. (Shame, though).

    Let TV1 or TV3 run a special on these anti-critical training courses…

    …sound of crickets chirping.

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  46. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    @Psycho Milt – “…Ansell’s rant at 2.14…”

    What rant? That doesn’t even come close to being a rant.

    He put a clear, logical and well-reasoned case for treating everyone the same and removing the racist pro-Maori rubbish from our education system. Now, call me crazy but that seems like a bloody good idea!

    Our education system is already far behind the times in that it still uses the long-ago-discredited “whole language” method of teaching reading. Add to that this PC cultural bullshit and its a miracle that any children going through our schools learn anything at all.

    There – *that* comes closer to being a rant…… :)

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  47. RRM (9,920 comments) says:

    John Ansell –

    Then why all the polemic on your site about how you think old customs like (haka / powhiri) that they are trying to preserve are ugly and upsetting, and should be got rid of?

    I get on well with the Maori people I know, precisely because they don’t subscribe to this behaviour either.

    The ones who share your own tastes you mean? Of course you do. That’s no great revelation.

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  48. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Because they are not his customs: they are alien and frightening to him.

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  49. EAD (1,086 comments) says:

    2 quotes from Eric Blair:

    “If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever” – 1984

    “The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”

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  50. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    I make no apology for spelling it out bluntly, as nothing else has any chance of provoking the required debate.

    I should say that I can appreciate the beautiful aspects of Maori culture, such as waiata and karakia. Maori music and oratory are world class. But the ugly macho posturing is offensive to me and many others.

    Just as British-descended Kiwis don’t hold commemorative witch-burnings for old times’ sake, I don’t think cannibal war dances and boorish ‘welcomes’ do much for our nation’s good name in the 21st century.

    All civilisations have been primitive and barbaric. Only one seems to want to advertise the fact. Maori are for the most part kind, warm and humorous people. Their rituals do not support that reality.

    Or do you think they do?

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  51. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Except you don’t get to choose which parts of a culture are acceptable to you. That might be up to Maori themselves.

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  52. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    Milky: (and others of his ilk) I stand with Ansell (and I think I have met the guy perhaps once, and we spoke on the phone once or twice)..I too am embarrassed when visitors to the country are “greeted” by a group of half naked Maori who then perform a war dance in front of them…Such displays have nothing to do with my culture, which consists of Welsh and French heritage (used to be proud of the French half but that’s another story)

    You can cut it and slice it and spin it any way you like…haka are violent war dances designed to frighten and intimidate anyone who witnesses them…that of course is precisely why the All Blacks do it..

    Singing and poi dances? Well, aside from the fact that they are both post European phenomena I don’t have too much problem with them…But the big problem remains: why should the “culture” of 15% of the population be assumed to be representative of the rest of us? Because the Maori got here 600 years or so before “us”? Bollocks to that…by that logic British “culture” should be Romans in togas or Scandinanvians in Viking helmuts…it is neither of course…

    But just out interest, are you one of those chaps who think because we only arrived here a couple of hundred years ago we have no culture?…To be frank, I am not sure quite what “my culture” is…but it sure as hell isn’t represented by a bunch of half naked Maori doing a war dance and rolling their eyes like madmen..

    You say Ansell doesn’t like those customs because “they are alien and frightening to him”..Damn right! That is exactly what such displays are meant to be.

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  53. EAD (1,086 comments) says:

    The truth is we live in a soft dictatorship. Vote National, vote Labour, and this state sanctioned brain washing will keep on going until no-one knows the truth.

    Dare to suggest that this is all bull shit and destroying our country and you will have the pack dogs onto you in a flash.

    Insanity: Voting National and Labour over and over again and expecting different results

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  54. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    “The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”

    That is a pretty awesome quote to include in a thread about people wanting Maori culture to disappear – just, maybe not in the way you were intending.

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  55. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    why should the “culture” of 15% of the population be assumed to be representative of the rest of us?

    Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! It’s because:
    1. It’s the indigenous culture of this country, as opposed to any Welsh/Scots imports.
    2. The basis of our claim to sovereignty in this country is that it was signed over to the Crown in a treaty, in which the Crown promised to reciprocate by protecting the indigenous population’s interests (which it of course welched on as soon as it had the numbers, but the principle stands).

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  56. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    RRM: Let’s turn it round: How do you justify the retention of customs that are ugly, violent and insulting?

    I’m trying to stoke change here, no question. Change is hard for people.

    For generations, Griever Maori (as opposed to those who happily choose to think for themselves) have been falsely indoctrinated that their very identity as human beings is tied to their primitive and bloodthirsty past.

    That’s nonsense. It’s a religious belief and certainly no worse than the sort of babble believed by Christians, Muslims and so on down the millennia.

    But how to get the message through that they’re individuals like everyone else?

    And how to put a halt to the lies being told to the rest of the population in the name of indulging this primitivism?

    It’s not that the kids necessarily believe what they’re told. Most of them are playing along too, I’m sure. But it’s the opportunity cost of such a massive diversion of resources into promoting pagan myths and outright lies, together with the feeling that “it’s not OK” to be descended from the civilisation responsible for more human accomplishments than any other in history.

    While our children are paying relentless homage to the so-called sacred race, they could be learning so much more to equip themselves for life in a competitive modern world.

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  57. insider (1,028 comments) says:

    Waiata lessons on taxpayer time seems the fashion in some agencies. No doubt they’ll soon be compulsory

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  58. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ insider (1,018 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 3:51 pm

    Singing is and always has been part of the education system in New Zealand.

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  59. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    Psycho: (sometimes these silly names are quite apt) You are wrong on all counts, but no surprise there…For a start, as everyone knows, Maori are only 600 years more indigenous than my father, son of a Welshman, born in Tauranga in 1921…They were indigenous to the hills of Taiwan (proved by DNZ analysis, but you don’t hear too much about that) rather than here. As the late David Lange said several times “Everyone in New Zealand was once an immigrant.”

    Secondly, if the “Treaty” was anything at all – it certainly was NOT an international treaty between sovereign nations – it was a treaty of cession…under which Maori ceded sovereignty to the British in return for protection of their lands, estates, forests and fisheries and “other treasures” – that massively problematic phrase – and the hugely valuable privilege of becoming subjects of Queen Wikitoria…something no other subject peoples got, so far as I know…

    I am not going to print it all out for you, but google “treaties of cession” and I am sure familiar bells will start to ring…

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  60. insider (1,028 comments) says:

    @ Judith

    you are right but it’s usually for the students not the teachers but I said agencies not schools.

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  61. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    DG
    There is indeed a European New Zealand culture. Funnily enough, this can co-exist with Maori culture. I think the revival of Maori culture over the past 40 years or so has been a positive development and it should not threaten anyone’s sense of identity.

    We all have varied sources of identity. I’m of immigrant English stock and celebrate the achievements of the ancestors that journeyed to an alien world over 150 years ago. At the same time, I’m happy to celebrate the unique heritage of Maori, and count that heritage among the sources of my own family’s identity.

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  62. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    So many comments along the lines of “I went to training college and learned to play along”.

    If everyone who said that had instead said, “It’s Not OK”, then the problem would be a distant memory.

    If you’ve had a gutsful of bowing and scraping to primitivism, you should know that (according to at least 12 polls) 80% of your fellow Kiwis – including a high percentage of Maori – agree with you.

    So next time, don’t just sit there – walk out or speak up!

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  63. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    The Maori culture as currently embedded in the 21st century is directly responsible for the abysmal social consequences and statistics that we all know. Only a fool would glorify that. We seem to have plenty of fools in this country. Playing games with two century old customs may be entertaining but offers nothing for the future.

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  64. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “If you’ve had a gutsful of bowing and scraping to primitivism”

    Who defines what is “primitivism” and on what basis?

    I have made it clear that I don’t agree with the enforcement of subjective political opinions, but this is a different issue.

    The pejorative “primitivism” is highly suspect, and sounds like racism to me, or at least a very arrogant form of cultural supremacist thinking.

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  65. flash2846 (284 comments) says:

    @ mikenmild & Psycho Milt – I can almost guarantee all KB readers that the two of you have uttered this sentence at least once in your miserable lives (probably numerous times)
    “I’ll get my Maori mate onto you”
    Don’t bother denying it; gutless wonders!

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  66. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    For a start, as everyone knows, Maori are only 600 years more indigenous tha[n] my father…

    Well, that’s a silly game to play because, apart from in a little bit of Africa, every population in the world consists of people who are only X years ‘more indigenous’ than someone who got off the plane this morning. If we were to adopt that ridiculous principle, the entire world consists of recent immigrants and we had no moral basis for trying to keep the Japs from taking over here in 1942 – they had as much right to the place as we did. Fortunately, we don’t adopt that ridiculous principle.

    …under which Maori ceded sovereignty to the British in return for protection of their lands, estates, forests and fisheries and “other treasures”…

    Well, exactly. Are you struggling with what those words mean, or something? Also: given that we didn’t hold up our end of the deal (ie, instead of protecting their lands, estates, forests and fisheries, we robbed them of them), they’d have a right to claim that cession of sovereignty is null and void – doesn’t having to sit through the odd powhiri strike you as by far the preferable alternative?

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  67. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    @ EAD

    ““The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.””

    That is true. My own people have had experience with this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

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  68. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    There are extremists on both sides of the debate. John Ansell is just the mirror image of Anette Sykes,

    National has rightly steered a moderate and middle course between these extremes.

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  69. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    Psycho: Well let’s analyse that one…

    I am not an anthropologist (merely an enthusiastic amateur) but I think you’ll find you picked on one particular race – the Japanese – who ARE indigenous to their country, in that their roots cannot be traced to anywhere else…similarly the Australian aborigines are certainly “indigenous” – they have apparently occupied Australia for 40,000 odd years, and their ancestry cannot be traced to anywhere else…

    From your rather silly analogy of the Japanese having the right to take us over in 1942, I am assuming you are in the Gareth Hughes camp…the silly little twerp who, in his maiden speech, told Parliament that we honkey’s would forever be in debt to the special people because we “took sovereignty at the point of a gun in 1840″

    Do tell us how “We” did that when there were 100,000 odd well tooled up Maori in NZ at the time, as against perhaps 3000 honkeys and a few marines. How did we manage force the Treaty upon the unwilling “indigenes”?

    Shawn: don’t talk fucking nonsense…Sykes thinks we honkeys should “go back where we came from” (I don’t think she means Gisborne in my case)…Ansell says nothing of the sort…he just objects to having half naked Maori rolling their eyes and poking out their tongues “welcoming” people on his behalf…as do I…and our children being force fed some sanitized bullshit as “traditional Maori culture and customs”

    And yes, I – along with the Courts of the land – have struggle with what “other treasures” might mean for the last 25 years…

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  70. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    @Psycho Milt, you cannot bind future generations, just as you cannot bind future Governments. The “Treaty” carries no more weight than we choose to give it now and we may interpret it as we please. In doing so we should choose what is best for the future, not what mattered to the past.

    It is that simple.

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  71. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    DG
    Why should Psycho Milt have to explain something allegedly said by Gareth Hughes?

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  72. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    Both arguments, that we should ignore the Treaty, and that the Treaty should be a never-ending source for eternal grievances and payouts, seem wrong to me. There has to be, and I think there is, a middle ground.

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  73. mara (784 comments) says:

    Yawn, nothing new here. Same for Nursing. Suck it up, pretend, move along and graduate.

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  74. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “Suck it up, pretend, move along and graduate.”

    No mara, I can’t agree with that. It is teaching people to be dishonest, to compromise their integrity just to graduate.

    That is no way to build a moral society.

    And academic institutions should not be in the business of enforcing political views, even ones I may agree with.

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  75. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    Milky: I didn’t ask him to explain what Hughes said (It’s not “alleged” old man; maiden speeches are readily available from Mr Google…have a look for yourself) . ..

    I asked him – Psycho – if he agreed with Hughes that we “took sovereignty at the point of a gun in 1840″..Neither Psycho nor anyone else could “explain” that statement because it is utter bullshit…as anyone with a modicum of knowledge of NZ history would know…

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  76. Unity (584 comments) says:

    I agree with John Ansell and David Garrett re Maori culture. I have absolutely no problem with people of Maori descent practising their culture but I do object to having to endure it endlessly everywhere I go. To me, nothing is more ill mannered than someone of Maori descent opening a function in the Maori language and not following it up in English with what he had just said. Maori culture is not my culture and I feel embarrassed for foreign dignitaries coming to this land and having to rub noses with someone of Maori descent. I often wonder what they think privately. Well we do know what one Scandinavian MP thought and it was entirely as I would have expected. Maori culture has it’s place – on the Marae, and I can tolerate the All Blacks doing the haka but having white people bursting out into a haka at everything that opens and shuts is totally distasteful and irritates me. I don’t force my culture down other people’s throats and I expect the same of Maori culture. If I want to adhere to it I will but I rebel against it when it is forced continually upon me.

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  77. hj (7,011 comments) says:

    Remenber Anna Penn

    “Cultural Safety has its origins in the field of nursing education.[1] The concept originated at a nursing leadership hui in 1989 after concerns were raised by Māori nursing students about the safety of Māori students in monocultural nursing schools and of Māori intellectual property when taught by tauiwi; it was further theorised and developed by Irihapeti Ramsden and the Nursing Council of New Zealand.”

    Irihapeti Ramsden, the architect of cultural safety, stated that cultural safety training is too skewed toward Maori studies in many nursing courses.[9]

    A number of controversies during the mid 1990s affected the concept of cultural safety in New Zealand. Critics claimed that nursing students were afraid to speak out about the excesses of cultural safety on their nursing degrees, presumably for concerns about failing their course after not meeting cultural safety requirements. Student nurse Anna Penn said she had been “bounced out” of her nursing course for being branded culturally unsafe by the polytechnic’s kaumatua, the late Hohua Tutengaehe, after she questioned the denial of her right as a women to speak on a Marae.[10] She also challenged a tutor’s claim that pre-European Maori had printing presses which were thrown into the sea by white colonials.[11] Penn subsequently attended a nursing course in Queensland, Australia, and is now a registered nurse in New Zealand.[12] In addition, Ex Waikato Polytechnic nursing tutor Brian Stabb said he had been sacked for being “culturally unsafe”.[13] Mr Stabb wrote that “I have experienced it as a racial judgement which carries all the stigmas of the most rabid forms of racism. Further. it seems this label can be handed out willy nilly with little or no accounability. The rationale I have been offered is that, as tangata whenua, Maori have the unassailable right to make such judgements and are accountable only to other tangata whenua”.[14]

    Additionally, former students and a former tutor on the Wanganui Polytechnic social work course have alleged intimidation and threats by tutors and students if they attempted to question the course’s promotion of “radical” Maori views. They have claimed, among other things, that separate classes were held for Maori and “tauiwi” (foreigners); that Maori students who failed last year were accepted into the second year; that Maori students were allowed to start the course one week before pakeha students because, in the words of a tutor, they had been disadvantaged all their lives and needed that extra week; that students were made to wear signs saying “Pakaitore (Moutoa Gardens) is Maori land” during the course’s selection process and risked exclusion if they refused; and that a tutor who had no teaching qualifications spent most of the class time sitting outside smoking and reading the newspaper.[15]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_safety

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  78. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You poor petal! I can assure you that European culture is most emphatically forced down everyone’s throats.

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  79. Redbaiter (8,823 comments) says:

    “John Ansell is just the mirror image of Anette Sykes,”

    Why don’t you grow some balls and stop smearing people with the courage to speak out.

    The courage you and your ilk lack.

    Disgusting crawler.

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  80. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    Shawn: there was indeed a middle ground…until the Lange government fucked it up and extended the jurisdiction of the Tribunal to alleged breaches of “the Treaty” back to 1840…Wise old Norman Kirk – whose government established the Tribunal in the first place – knew that extending its ambit back to 1840 was a recipe for disaster and never ending grievance…which is precisely what we have had since 1984, and what we will continue to have unless or until there is a majority of people who think like Ansell and me…and I frankly cannot see that happening after almost two generations of brainwashing…If I had had children when my peers did they would now be grown up, and have grandchildren my childrens age…The treaty/grievance industry has been full steam ahead since at least the early ’80’s…

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  81. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    I am not an anthropologist…

    That much is glaringly obvious.

    …the Japanese – who ARE indigenous to their country, in that their roots cannot be traced to anywhere else…similarly the Australian aborigines are certainly “indigenous” – they have apparently occupied Australia for 40,000 odd years, and their ancestry cannot be traced to anywhere else…

    You blathered on about Maori coming from Taiwan – how do you think their ‘ancestry was traced’ back that far? It was through tracking changes to sampled mitochondrial DNA. If you think about that for a bit, you might figure out that Japanese and Koori could be traced back along their ancestral migration paths the same way, and for the same bullshit reason you’re doing it with Maori – should some obnoxious racist wish to make a claim they aren’t indigenous to those countries because they’re ‘only X years more indigenous’ than someone who arrived yesterday.

    Do tell us how “We” did that when there were 100,000 odd well tooled up Maori in NZ at the time, as against perhaps 3000 honkeys and a few marines. How did we manage force the Treaty upon the unwilling “indigenes”?

    As mikenmild pointed out, I’m under no obligation to account to you for erroneous statements made by Gareth Hughes.

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  82. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “Why don’t you grow some balls and stop smearing people with the courage to speak out.”

    I’m not smearing Rednut, just stating a valid opinion.

    “The courage you and your ilk lack.”

    I have more courage in my little finger than you could muster in a lifetime. My “ilk” by the way are Native Americans. Our courage is not in question.

    “Disgusting crawler.”

    Man up Red and put your money where your mouth is.

    Here is my email: shawnleeherles@gmail.com.

    Send my an email and we can sort out a time and place, and then see who the gutless crawler is.

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  83. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    “I’m of immigrant English stock and celebrate the achievements of the ancestors that journeyed to an alien world over 150 years ago. At the same time, I’m happy to celebrate the unique heritage of Maori, ”

    C’mon Mikey- Deep down you are awfully ashamed to be a descendant of ‘evil colonialist whitey’ and I bet you flagellate yourself nightly to ease your blood guilt…

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  84. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I’m white as with nothing to feel guilty about…

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  85. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    The “Treaty” carries no more weight than we choose to give it now and we may interpret it as we please.

    Well, that’s certainly an “interesting” approach to treaties. But let’s play anyway. Sure we’re free to interpret it as we please, but the problem with a treaty is that it has two parties, and the ability of one party to interpret the treaty however it pleases is somewhat constrained by the requirement for the other party’s agreement to that interpretation. In other words, interpret it however the hell you like, but don’t expect the legal system necessarily to go along with your interpretation.

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  86. RRM (9,920 comments) says:

    David Garrett:

    The only reason we don’t get into any of the finer trappings of “european culture” much here, is because, let’s face it, we are a country founded by settlers who were by and large the semi-literate poor, escaping grinding poverty in industrial England… people who had little if any direct personal connection to most of the best things about european culture, to pass on to their kids the first NZ-born generations.

    I believe that is essentially why we are a white trash rugby racing and beer country now, and why New Zealanders feel so little connection to their English / European heritage. Our history kinda *began* on that long voyage on the sailing ship… not unlike a lot of Maori culture funnily enough!

    That, and we are taught at school all about the heroic pioneers, and precious little about where they came from (other than how awful the work house was.)

    AND we get so much c-grade american shit on tv and radio and the internet.

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  87. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    “I’m white as with nothing to feel guilty about…”

    C’mon mate- At the very least you proudly wear a bone carving don’t you? And I bet you have a fascinating range of pronunciations for Oamaru and Taupo…

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  88. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    Jesus, can no one actually READ??

    Psycho: for the SECOND time, I was not suggesting you should “explain” Hughes’ bullshit; I was simply asking if you agreed with his proposition…I take it that you don’t..

    I have readily admitted not being an anthropologist…I assume you are one? Or at least learned in the discipline?

    As for my being an “obnoxious racist”, I would find that rather uncomfortable since my half Tongan children are darker than most Maori, and I have a position of some responsibility in that country…

    You see, the difference between the Tongans and the Maori – while one of them at least – is that the Tongans don’t see themselves as some mythical chosen people…notwithstanding that they ruled half the Pacific before the Maori arrived here..

    Shawn: Well said you!! Call the bugger out, that’s the story…I think you’ll find you’ll have to drive to Red though…he probably finds the open road a bit challenging these days…and forget about after dark…

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  89. hj (7,011 comments) says:

    The treaty may have two versions, but do any of then work? For example the Green Party are committed to fullfilling the requirements of the version in Maori (whatever it means):
    —-

    One of jh’s themes has been dis-satisfaction with the Green Party for not being specific about the outcomes of our policy in relation to the Treaty. “What, specifically, will this country be like if we go down this course?”. It’s a question I have heard many times over the years, and it usually speaks from a position of fear and insecurity for Pakeha: what if I’ll be worse off? or even what if there’s no place for me?
    I want to acknowledge that actually we are asking people to do something (and we are doing it too) quite different from what we usually ask with our policy. Normally we have a very clear idea of the outcome we are seeking, and establish a policy to reflect how we will get there.
    But the Treaty is different. The words all have the potential to sound pretty hammy, but fundamentally the outcome being sought is a process: the process of absolute good faith negotiation, in which we Pakeha engage from a position of honour – acting ethically and morally.
    That process involves courage because we don’t know the outcome (and because we know we have it pretty sweet just how things are, let’s be honest). It is pretty scary, but it’s also pretty damn exciting!

    http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/05/03/my-speech-at-blackball-2010/

    The problem is whatever the treaty signatories in 1840 envisioned is unlikely to make a workable state. Biculturalism is one step but even that far involves accepting a world of two realities; at the other end it represents conditions completely onerous to non Maori.

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  90. SGA (1,028 comments) says:

    David Garrett at 5:08 pm

    You see, the difference between the Tongans and the Maori – while one of them at least – is that the Tongans don’t see themselves as some mythical chosen people…notwithstanding that they ruled half the Pacific before the Maori arrived here..

    And is it fair to call the Tongans the indigenous people of Tonga?

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  91. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    ” the difference between the Tongans and the Maori – while one of them at least is that the Tongans don’t see themselves as some mythical chosen people…”

    This is true- I was horrified when after seeing Willie Jackson ranting about the “unique Maori World view” I asked some Part-Maori friends what this meant.
    “Chosen people, sort of a Master Race thing” was the answer I got…(My friends think it is extremist bullshit as well)

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  92. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    hj: those bastards are so mad that if “the tangata whenua” DID decide we honkeys “had no place” here, half of them – the Greens – would willingly jump into to sea…Not me…not so long as I can hold a fowling piece in my shakey hands…

    SGA: so far as I am aware, the Tongans cannot be traced anywhere else…but lapita pottery has been found there (Shawn the anthropologist can explain the significance of that) as in other Pacific countries…so SOMEONE was presumably there before the present inhabitants..

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  93. hj (7,011 comments) says:

    Michael King in arguing weather Pakeha are an ethnicity asks how long in the 500 years before Pakeha arrived Maori saw themselves as from somewhere else. What’s good enough for goose is good enough for gander.

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  94. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    DG- We are merely “Visitors to this Country” according to the charming and lovely Tariana Turia…
    I think about that comment often when I am at the Cenotaph looking at the names of my relatives (and the tens of thousands of other young men) who died on battlefields of Europe fighting for this Country.

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  95. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    “Knives: Yes…I’m afraid I didn’t share my former leader’s warm fuzzy view of Mrs Turia…whose father was of course an American serviceman.. As I have said here often, she always made a point of disagreeing with me – but not so loud that Hansard could hear – that gangs were groups of odious criminals, and not “just another form of whanau” as she claimed

    Psycho: I am feeling benevolent…so I will quietly suggest that you Google “law of international treaties” or even Philip Joseph’s seminal work on New Zealand’s constitution..pp. 331 ff….might stop you continuing to make an ass of yourself…

    hj: While I am not an anthropologist like Psycho, when I last checked, the Maori still had oral history about arriving here from “Hawaiiki”…so by their own legends they are, as I said early, only 600 years “more indigenous” than my father…

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  96. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    I don’t necessarily agree with everything DG says on this issue, but he’s not an obnoxious racist or a racist of any sort.

    Psycho, you wont do your arguments any good by descending to Rednut’s infantile level.

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  97. Odakyu-sen (652 comments) says:

    “…the Japanese – who ARE indigenous to their country, in that their roots cannot be traced to anywhere else… ”

    I wish.

    The “Japanese” that most of you are thinking of are probably descended from the Yayoi people who brought rice cultivation with them from the Asian mainland a couple of thousand years ago. Ref: http://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/yayoi-era-yields-up-rice/who-were-the-yayoi-people/

    The “official indigenous” people of Japan are the Ainu.

    So, even the Japanese are not “indigenous” to Japan. There is even talk of spending taxpayers’ yen on the Ainu language.

    Like Yogi Berra said, “It’s déjà vu all over again” …

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  98. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    “whose father was of course an American serviceman..”

    Really?? I thought she must have been 100% the ‘Chosen People’…..

    I always recall her comment about Europeans being “visitors to this country” and think to myself that those poor young blokes who died for this Country have far more right to call themselves ‘New Zealanders’ than that evil old witch ever could…

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  99. hj (7,011 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt (2,313 comments) says:
    …under which Maori ceded sovereignty to the British in return for protection of their lands, estates, forests and fisheries and “other treasures”…

    Well, exactly. Are you struggling with what those words mean, or something? Also: given that we didn’t hold up our end of the deal (ie, instead of protecting their lands, estates, forests and fisheries, we robbed them of them), they’d have a right to claim that cession of sovereignty is null and void – doesn’t having to sit through the odd powhiri strike you as by far the preferable alternative?
    …………………
    We didn’t keep up our end of the bargain

    Given that most NZrs don’t have two pennys to rub together, what onerous conditions would you prefer Pricko?
    Resource rents to Maori. Or do you just like being hero of the (allegedly) oppressed? The fact uis that people like you are just grandstanding useless twerps (of course that’s only my opinion).

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  100. Rightandleft (663 comments) says:

    When I was going through teachers training college I had one friend who refused to play the game. She made her views on the Treaty and biculturalism perfectly clear to our Maori lecturer. She was failed on a test despite having got all the questions right. The lecturer then told her she was failed because of her racist attitude. She went to the head of the programme and filed a formal complaint. Her grade was immediately changed to an A and the lecturer was told off. She didn’t make many friends with her attitude but she graduated and was hired at a decile 10 school.

    It’s funny the way training college forces people to toe the PC line but Professor Elizabeth Rata the foremost opponent of biculturalism in academia is a lecturer of education at Auckland Uni. When I teach the Treaty I teach her views as equally valid to those of Ranginui Walker or Claudia Orange. I have my classes debate the place of the Treaty today and whether it justifies the Maori seats.

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  101. SGA (1,028 comments) says:

    David Garrett at 5:15 pm

    SGA: so far as I am aware, the Tongans cannot be traced anywhere else

    Really? I would have thought that Tongan and Maori ancestry would have conjoined at some point a few thousand years ago. Not so?

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  102. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    I don’t necessarily agree with everything DG says on this issue, but he’s not an obnoxious racist or a racist of any sort.

    I would say anyone who takes the insanely obvious track denigrating a pepole by suggesting they “did not come from here in the first place” is borderline racist. Same “mind trick” Ansell uses all the time. Speaking of which, DPF, why in the heavens are you reposting the brainwashing nut bar anyway? Did you not notice the well placed ‘slogan images’? He may be a racist but he certainly past his social teacher taught classes in Brainwashing 101

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  103. ross411 (838 comments) says:

    mikenmild (11,042 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 1:04 pm
    It’s impossible to make a judgement without reading the student’s essay.

    All you do here is pass judgement on things you are by no means that familiar with. Why not this? I don’t understand.

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  104. hj (7,011 comments) says:

    and Margaret Mutu’s mother is Scottish. Peter is related to Ena.

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  105. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    It seems interesting that when Ugly is here and he says “I have the truth, think different” s/he gets slandered. But when Ansell says “I have the truth, think different” some people actually listen despite the obvious parallels between the ways in which Ugly Truth and Ansell present their “truth”. I guess everyone has their own degrees of paranoia that can be pulled out and tweaked in different places. And I guess the “that man is not like me” paranoia runs pretty deep. Pyshcology; interesting subject.

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  106. SGA (1,028 comments) says:

    itstricky at 5:43 pm

    Pyshcology; interesting subject.

    :-)

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  107. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    SGA: As I say, not so far as I am aware…but I am not an anthropologist, so you’ll need to ask old Psycho…he seems very well up on your mitochondrial DNA as it pertains to race… Again as far as I am aware, there is no anthropological link between the tongans and the maori…and other than a few similarities such as words for “house” (fale rather than whare, and mate meaning dead in Tongan but only sick in Maori, and the words for numbers) the languages are quite different…as are the Tongan and Samoan languages…I have heard anthropologists (like old Psycho) say otherwise, but I am content to accept what my wife says: That Tongans cannot understand Maori and vice versa, and neither can understand Samoans…Which is in fact a bit strange, since it is established that around 600 BC the Tongans ruled the Samoans…kind of explains why there is still a great deal of enmity between them…(except at Auckland Uni and in the minds of chaps like Psycho, where they are all happy brown “pasifika” brothers)…

    Try asking a Tongan in Tonga what a pasifika person is…they will very politely shrug and smile (as they do when embarrassed) and tell you they haven’t got a clue…

    One interesting thing (of many) about Tonga…there is a stone structure up which looks a bit like a segment of Stonehenge…the two supports are about 30 feet high, and the cross piece is estimated to weigh 20 tons or something..modern Tongan history has no explanation as to what it is, and more importantly who built it and how…

    its an: Ah no…Ugly relies on outlandish conspiracy theories to “explain” his “truth”…from what I can see, Ansell makes arguments based on verifiable fact, but draws conclusions from those facts that you and your ilk don’t like… But let’s “tease this out” to borrow your phrase…do you agree or disagree that a haka is an aggressive war dance designed to frighten and intimidate others, specifically those whom it is performed in front of?

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  108. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    Those slogan images. Love em. ‘Complicit are the meek’. Reminds me of when I was back in the detention camps being water boarded.

    MM did anyone get back to you as to why the essay wasn’the included? I mean surely that would allow someone to make up their own mind on this post, hey?

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  109. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    DG – haka – disagree. The world doesn’t always have to be black or white. There are many shades of grey.

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  110. SGA (1,028 comments) says:

    David Garrett at 5:53 pm

    and other than a few similarities such as words for “house” (fale rather than whare, and mate meaning dead in Tongan but only sick in Maori) the languages are quite different

    Different languages but very clearly related –
    tahi, rua, toru, wha, rima, ono, whitu, waru, iwa
    taha, ua, tolu, fa, nima, ono, fitu, valu, hiva

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  111. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    SGA: Ran out of time…like to have my posts free of errors..

    You might well be right about the Tongans and Maori having some common ancestry…I certainly have never heard or read that, and I have read everything I can find – which is not much – on Tongan history…

    SG: yes…I amended my post to include numbers…they are indeed very similar, but interestingly not much else is…for example “thank you” in Tonga is Malo, but fa’afetai in Samoan…both languages have glottal stops – signified by the apostrophe – but they cannot understand each other…

    What IS well established – as I understand it – is that the Maori arrived here long after the rest of the Polynesian Triangle was populated by their modern day inhabitants…as I say, both the Tongan and Samoans concur – although the latter don’t like it -that the Tongans were well established in their Islands prior to 600 BC, and that around that time, the Tongans aggressively took control of Samoa, and Rotuma and the Lau Group in Fiji…which explains why the Rotumas and most in the Lau group are Polynesians and not Melanesians…

    But where has our resident anthropologist gone? Off to cook the kai perhaps…

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  112. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    Well its an, if you don’t agree that the haka is an aggressive war dance you know even less than I gave you credit for…it might be performed at events – such as funerals – where aggression is not the intent, but that doesn’t change the essential nature of the thing…

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  113. doggone7 (801 comments) says:

    To the teacher trainee subject of the article:

    “It is important that readers of this blog understand the hoops that trainee teachers are forced to jump through, and the limits on freedom of thought that are imposed from above.”

    It is a terrible thing to be conscripted into writing something that you do not believe, and for this to occur in a university environment is completely unacceptable.”

    First of all congratulations on having the courage to be a teacher. It is a licence to do something rewarding with your life, make a positive contribution to the world and be loved by learners and their parents. And it is a chance to be despised by many.

    That last part may lead to a “why?” I am going to be the devil of devils’ advocates of the haters’ side to demonstrate.

    “Of course you have to jump through hoops. We will provide the hoops you are just a teacher. Freedom of thought? You have the freedom to think what we want you to think because we know better than you. Writing something you do not believe? Get used to it. You will believe what we want you to believe. You are a public servant. You are joining a group hell bent on perverting our children with leftist ideals. You will be mixing with lazy, selfish people, united by a loathsome outdated union hellbent on destroying what our education system could be.

    Of course if you had any real capabilities you would get a proper job – those who can do and those who can’t teach of course. But since you’re taking it up you have the job ahead of you to help correct the terrible fact that 20% of our kids are leaving school unable to read and write. Now get out there and do your best.”

    I will be called an idiot (again) for posting thus but this is a summary of the views commonly espoused here. Which drive the teacher in our house to distraction. The irony is that the freedoms you will expect to develop as a professional (giving the job that rank), the ones you felt denied you in your training, are the same ones many would deny you.

    All the best to you. With the passion you already show you can do well.

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  114. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    David, the Church of Applied Pessimism will always have its adherents. For reasons which I cannot begin to fathom, people like RRM have some deep psychological need to condemn their own civilisation as the devil’s chosen people.

    If this toxic minority continues to hold sway – considering they represent 20% max of the population, then the other 80% of us have only ourselves to blame.

    The question for those of you not under Marxist-Maori mind control is: what are you going to do next time you’re confronted with dishonest history teaching or ugly, violent, insulting behaviour in the name of “culture”?

    Are you going to say “It’s not OK”?

    If not, don’t complain. You hold the power.

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  115. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    One interesting thing (of many) about Tonga…there is a stone structure up which looks a bit like a segment of Stonehenge…the two supports are about 30 feet high, and the cross piece is estimated to weigh 20 tons or something..modern Tongan history has no explanation as to what it is, and more importantly who built it and how…
    It’s called Ha’amonga ‘a Maui. When I visited it, I was told it had astronomical significance, but I understand that is disputed.

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  116. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘under Marxist-Maori mind control’
    Thanks for the lulz.

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  117. SGA (1,028 comments) says:

    David Garrett at 6:04 pm

    …both languages have glottal stops – signified by the apostrophe – but they cannot understand each other…

    On the other hand, I imagine that Julius Caesar would have trouble understanding modern Italian – and that’s even the same geographic location – let alone groups who find themselves separated for several hundreds of years.

    But anyway, that’s off topic.

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  118. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    John: Tena koe!

    I am sure it won’t surprise you that I objected to a great deal of the “Maori stuff” I was expected to sit through when I was an MP…such as interminable powhiri, the contents of which were never translated (One thing I have always liked about the Tongans is they translate the Tongan speech for their guests…even though in their country they are the 90% majority, and we are most definitely “visitors”. They simply see it as good manners)

    On one occasion where I thought a lengthy powhiri was totally unnecessary, I walked out, thereupon sparking what was virtually a diplomatic incident. Rodney was contacted by the Head of Parliamentary Services about my “cultural insensitivity” He hauled me in and asked why I had done what I had done…I won’t embarrass him by repeating the advice/guidance I received, but let’s say it wasn’t a million miles away from the “suck it up and graduate” advice someone refers to above.

    The media must have been sleepy that day, because my walkout never made the news – generally I only had to fart and it made the news. I had and have no doubt that if I had done it again it would have been all over the news, and I would have been accused of being an “obnoxious racist” as I have here today. so what DOES one do in such a situation? With respect, it’s easy for you to sit in front of your computer and say “just say it’s not OK”..

    One funny side…the next time the Head of Parliamentary Services came to see me about something entirely unrelated, I got up from my chair and gave him a hongi…He just about shat himself! Told me later he thought I was about to attack him…which would have been very unwise since he is a black belt in karate…

    SG: I am not a linguist either…was Latin what the Romans spoke? I am pretty sure that Latin is not very similar to Italian, or am I wrong? Unlike Psycho and his ilk, I am wrong so distressingly often…

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  119. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    @psycho milt, the legal system will interpret the Treaty only by default. Parliament is always free to reinterpret, repudiate or reinvent the Treaty as it wishes. The trouble with the Treaty is that neither side still exists: neither the British Crown nor the Maori tribes and leaders. Moreover modern Maori are as much a part of the modern Crown as pakeha – thereby having feet on both sides of the table. Little could be more absurd than pretending these parties still share the same interests and obligations as those of two centuries ago.

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  120. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “It seems interesting that when Ugly is here and he says “I have the truth, think different” s/he gets slandered. But when Ansell says “I have the truth, think different” some people actually listen”

    I think JA is wrong, but sane. Ugly is not sane.

    Edit.

    “The question for those of you not under Marxist-Maori mind control is”

    Ok, I may have been wrong about JA being sane.

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  121. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    Milky @ 6.23: exactly…just as the supposed significance and purpose of Stonehenge is disputed…All one can say for sure I guess is that “someone” was there before the modern Tongans – hence the lapita and the Trilithon – but no-one really knows who or when…As I say though, I believe it is pretty well accepted that the Tongans were there about 1000 years before the Maori arrived here…

    Alan W: Very well put…the current status of the Treaty is as set out in a number of decisions of the Court of Appeal in the late 80’s and 90’s…parliament can legislate to override those decisions any time it chooses…but it hasn’t, and I don’t believe it will any time soon…

    Shawn: cheap chardy all over my keyboard…quite so…

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  122. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    …it might be performed at events – such as funerals – where aggression is not the intent, but that doesn’t change the essential nature of the thing…

    That nature being a show of unity and strength amongst a group, which is entirely appropriate at a funeral and also in war.

    After all, I did disagree with your definition. Like I said, most things in life are grey, not black or white only.

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  123. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    “exactly…just as the supposed significance and purpose of Stonehenge is disputed…”

    Yet strangely NOTHING that our precious ‘Chosen People/Master Race’ claim is allowed to be disputed in this Country…(even their most ludicrous claims!)
    If they decide they invented Navigation by the Stars/Tattoos/Rugby Union/ even Whales.. then By God they invented it!!

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  124. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “what are you going to do next time you’re confronted with dishonest history teaching”

    Assuming it IS dishonest, take a stand. But the problem is that a fair amount of history is open to interpretation.

    ” or ugly, violent, insulting behaviour in the name of “culture”?”

    All cultures have ugly and violent aspects to them. This quickly becomes highly subjective.

    For example, Death Metal, which comes from European culture is ugly and violent to some, art to others.

    The issue of culture is just far too complex to divide up in this simplistic fashion. What is ugly, violent or insulting to one, is culture to another. Who decides?

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  125. yankdownunder (31 comments) says:

    How about the teacher training?
    Proof is in the pudding? The end result of this indoctrination has been dismal. Critical thinking skills [most important skills IMO] are being lost due to PC.
    The charter schools offer an alternative, which is exactly why they’ve become so opposed by the teachers union and other liberal groups. I do believe that the standard of education in charter schools would be higher and give the non-indoctrinated teachers a place to teach. That’s a win-win.
    There is a concerted effort to “dumb down” the curriculum, students, population…

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  126. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    The question for those of you not under Marxist-Maori mind control is: what are you going to do next time you’re confronted with dishonest history teaching or ugly, violent, insulting behaviour in the name of “culture”?

    Are you going to say “It’s not OK”?

    If not, don’t complain. You hold the power.

    Churches. Marxists. Complicit are the meek. You hold the power. Got it. BRAINWASHING ALERT.

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  127. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    It’s an: You have had too much of whatever it is you are imbibing…

    Why on earth are idiots downticking Milky who is simply describing the Tongan trilithon and what it might mean??

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  128. Scott Hamilton (298 comments) says:

    ‘All one can say for sure I guess is that “someone” was there before the modern Tongans’

    Yep, the ancient Tongans. Geesh David. Did you learn anything about the place when you lived there? There’s a continuity in all the archaeological digs along Fanga’uta lagoon and further noth between the Lapita culture, which David Burley has been very precisely dated as arriving just under three thousand years ago at Nukuleka, and proto-Tongan and classical Tongan culture. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-05/an-call-for-tongan-museum-to-display-heritage/5648736

    John Ansell’s nutty mate Martin Doutre thinks an ancient white race built the trilithon. I’d love him to take that theory to the kingdom and try it out in some kava houses.

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  129. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    @ yankdownunder: August 14th, 2014 at 6:56 pm

    I am in full agreement with you on that. There is far too much uniformity and lack of real choice in the education system.

    By the way, where in the USA are you from?

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  130. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Parliament is always free to reinterpret, repudiate or reinvent the Treaty as it wishes.

    And is free to do it without reference to the other party, and has done so in the past – which has led people like Gareth Hughes to point out that our ownership of this country is at the point of a gun. That’s an unwelcome concept for both sides, so upholding the Treaty is a useful way to spare ourselves embarrassment on the world stage and armed conflict at home. You seem to be more interested in rubbing the other party’s nose in the fact that we took this place at the point of a gun, which is why sensible people regard your views on this subject as obnoxious racism.

    Given that most NZrs don’t have two pennys to rub together, what onerous conditions would you prefer Pricko?

    Are you shitting me? We breached the Treaty left, right and centre, and all that’s being asked as compensation is that we negotiate some compensation payments that are trivial relative to the other party’s losses, show a bit of respect, and put up with the occasional haka or powhiri. Ansell, Garrett and you apparently find these unspeakably onerous conditions that no human being should have to endure, which leads me to ask “What’s wrong widju, man?”

    …in the minds of chaps like Psycho, where they are all happy brown “pasifika” brothers)…

    For fuck’s sake – which of your enemies am I standing in for this time?

    As for my being an “obnoxious racist”, I would find that rather uncomfortable since my half Tongan children are darker than most Maori, and I have a position of some responsibility in that country…

    OK, you’re not an obnoxious racist, you just like to make obnoxious, ill-informed generalisations about ethnic groups you don’t belong to. It’s a distinction that escapes me, but then I’m a psycho, not a psychologist.

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  131. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    What do you mean by ‘Death Metal’ Shawn?
    I am a Metal fan and was just hoping to clarify…

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  132. nasska (11,503 comments) says:

    DG

    Hasn’t it been proved through DNA that Polynesians all descended from the aboriginal Taiwanese? I saw a chart somewhere that suggested that when the Han Chinese gave them the boot the Taiwanese migrated down through Thailand to Indonesia thence spreading gradually through most of the Pacific.

    …..” I got up from my chair and gave him a hongi”….

    Love it! :)

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  133. Scott Hamilton (298 comments) says:

    ‘Tonga…there is a stone structure up which looks a bit like a segment of Stonehenge’

    It also has a lot in common with scores of other stone monuments raised by the Tongan Empire. Funny that…
    http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2010/01/in-tongan-empire.html

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  134. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “What do you mean by ‘Death Metal’ Shawn?”

    I mean the sub-genre known as Death Metal, one of many such as Black Metal, Progressive Metal, and so forth.

    I’m not anti it at all, I was just using it as an example of how people react to different kinds of culture.

    I used to be a Metal fan myself, but these days I prefer Industrial, Dark Ambient and Neo-Folk

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  135. EAD (1,086 comments) says:

    Anyone else remember this video from the 1980’s.

    The lyrics were:
    One people on the water,
    one people on the land,
    It’s New Zealand working together
    Kiwis hand in hand,

    If we were to do another version, our cultural marxists might sing:
    Many different people from across the waters
    different culture celebrated on the land
    New Zealand’s state enforced diversity
    means nothing in common with our fellow man

    Which sort of mindset is likely to emobde a civility across the country and goodwill amongst citizens? What sort of mindset would unite rather than divide the citizens?

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  136. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    Shawn- Thanks for that. I am a ‘Metal’ fan (Maiden,Sabbath,Priest etc) and am glad you didn’t lump it all into one like many people do.
    Those weirdo Scandinavian Death Metal bands that like to murder each other and eat each other’s brains are freaks and the joke of the Metal community…
    *Though I must say even they are more talented than Rappers…But I digress…

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  137. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    @psycho milt, what other party? Parliament represents all involved. Nope, ownership of the country is via democratic vote. Hughes is talking nonsense and you are swallowing it whole. Finally you resort to the silly racism insult. Pathetic and intellectually vacuous.

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  138. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    It’s an: You have had too much of whatever it is you are imbibing…

    Weren’t we talking about The Haka?

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  139. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    Longknives:

    I am a ‘Metal’ fan (Maiden,Sabbath,Priest etc)

    Yup, some of the same bands I was into. :)

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  140. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    Finally you resort to the silly racism insult. Pathetic and intellectually vacuous.

    He didn’t call him a racist. He called him a man who likes to make obnoxious, ill-informed generalisations about ethnic groups he doesn’t belong to.

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  141. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    @itstricky, wrong: “You seem to be more interested in rubbing the other party’s nose in the fact that we took this place at the point of a gun, which is why sensible people regard your views on this subject as obnoxious racism.”

    Obviously he had run out of brain function and resorted to the usual Lefty reflexes.

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  142. Maggy Wassilieff (393 comments) says:

    Re Origins of Polynesians http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110203124726.htm
    Re Origins of Australian aborigines http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/news/2013/01/aboriginal-genes-suggest-indian-migration/

    Basically we’re all Africans… some of us got here earlier than the others. Some of us settled in Islands along the way and every now and again mixed genes.

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  143. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    @itstricky, wrong

    @Alan, joke.

    Obviously he had run out of brain function and resorted to the usual Lefty reflexes.

    Obviously he hasn’t be conditioned to deny racism.

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  144. Anthony (796 comments) says:

    This type of thing has been going on since the 1970s. I remember when I was at intermediate and one of my classmates in his assignment on Maori culture described the Maori as having a stone age culture – he got publicly berated by the teacher who tried to say how advanced Maori culture was!

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  145. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    @itstricky, you are wrong on all counts, but mostly in assuming psycho was responding to DG. In the case I referenced he wasn’t.

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  146. David Garrett (7,272 comments) says:

    Idiot: If I were you, I would just slink away…but of course you are not me, and you won’t…much amusement will therefore ensue…

    Scott Hamilton: Your little piece has much in common with other “once over lightly” pieces I have seen about Tonga…Let me put it this way…I was honoured to be called a friend by the late Tu’pelihake, who died a while ago…I once asked him about some aspect of Tongan life which I was puzzling over…this was his answer, which I have never forgotten:

    “Tevita, I am a member of the Royal family…and I don’t understand how that all works…a palangi like you has no chance…just don’t pretend to know, like some of the other idiots do “…

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  147. Boris Piscina (53 comments) says:

    Every now and then one has an epiphany moment. Reading this thread, I have just had such an experience.

    Now that I know that Stonehenge was actually built by the Tongans, everything else just falls into place.

    It is all so clear. It makes perfect sense.

    I am at peace.

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  148. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    Idiot: If I were you, I would just slink away…but of course you are not me, and you won’t…much amusement will therefore ensue…

    Were we talking about The Haka, or have you changed the subject now?

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  149. Redbaiter (8,823 comments) says:

    New Zealand is just like the old Soviet Union, not only in the matter of brainwashing within govt sponsored schools and training institutions but also in the way that its citizens do nothing to challenge or stop the evil that is being perpetrated.

    “For evil to prosper all that is necessary if that good men do nothing” is a maxim that has been proved right time and time again and reading this thread I am sickened by the number of commenters who acknowledge what is happening but simultaneously say its best to say nothing. Such mass cowardice.

    The people behind this disgusting perversion need to be identified, isolated and dealt with. Complain to your MP and demand that they do something. Confront them in their workplaces. Criticise them as the bigots liars and molesters of childrens mind’s that they are.

    John Ansell is no “radical” and neither is he the mirror image of Annette Sykes as one sickening smearing cowardly buffoon has suggested. Ansell is a brave man prepared to speak out when most cower in abject compliance. Worse than sheep.

    Furthermore, the disgusting propaganda pushing the “nobel savage” legend is just the tip of the iceberg. All govt run education services have assumed the role of de facto parents, and instead of educating our children, they are nurturing and parenting them, and creating a massive cultural divide between real parents and their children.

    The Sovietization of our education system is an evil that has predecessors in history that should give ample warning of what lies ahead. When its negative outcomes become more apparent how many of the above writers will have to say we saw what was happening and we did nothing. Too many I reckon.

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  150. Scott Hamilton (298 comments) says:

    I think you should have taken your mate’s advice, David, and avoided making the silly claim that some non-Polynesian civilisation once settled the Friendly Islands and raised the trilithon. If Europeans or Asians settled Tonga thousands of years ago, why do we not find a single artefact that points to their presence in the scores of sites we’ve excavated? No coins, no swords, no non-Lapita pottery – nada.

    Tongan oral history is complex and not easily navigable by outsiders, but radiocarbon testing and stratigraphy tell their own story. David Burley’s team have nailed Nukuleka as the oldest settlement site known to us and dated it to almost three thousand years BP. The stone monuments don’t appear until less than a thousand years ago. Stonehenge, which you seem to somehow want to connect with them, is four thousand years old.

    You admit you’ve read almost nothing about Tonga, and that’s a pity because the literature on the place is huge and fascinating. Here’s a class a gave with the Tongan scholar Taniela Vao last year which might interest you, because it complicates the over-simple contrast you seem to like to draw between Tongan and Maori history: http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/taniela-vao-and-tongan-art-of-time.html

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  151. Scott Hamilton (298 comments) says:

    Though I must confess that David would find some supporters for his claims that a non-Tongan people got to the Friendly islands in ancient times. There are a few rather weird Mormons up there who sing from his song sheet: http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/more-delusional-than-darwin-arguing.html

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  152. Scott Hamilton (298 comments) says:

    ‘Now that I know that Stonehenge was actually built by the Tongans, everything else just falls into place.’

    There is a very distinguished Tongan sculptor, a man of great talent and wide interests, who insists that Tongans were transported to ancient Egypt by a group of extraterrestrials and built the pyramids there!

    We had a guy come to one of our school’s kava gatherings and tell us all that the Garden of Eden and the Holy Land of the Bible were located on the island of Tongatapu, and that Tongans were the world’s chosen people. When I asked him how the Holy Land got so far south, he explained that the earth’s plates had been busy a couple of thousand years ago!

    But chaps like him are no sillier than the British Israelites, who were once a mass force in NZ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism

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  153. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “John Ansell is no “radical” and neither is he the mirror image of Annette Sykes as one sickening smearing cowardly buffoon has suggested.”

    Well, that’s just your opinion Rednut. But your opinion means less to me than shit I find on the bottom of my boot. As to who is the coward, still waiting for your email. It’s easy to sling shit from behind a computer. Man up and sling it to my face, otherwise the only snivelling, gutless, cowardly buffoon here is you.

    Come on Red, put your money where your mouth is.

    Have you got the balls or not?

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  154. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    New Zealand is just like the old Soviet Union…

    I expect the people who actually endured the old Soviet Union would be far too polite to give you the punch in the face you earned with that comment. Pity.

    Finally you resort to the silly racism insult.

    I certainly lack the libertarian’s ability to disregard inconvenient social and historical facts, but when I resort to insults you’ll know all about it. The description of your views as ‘obnoxious racism’ is merely a recognition of the motives of people who interpret their country’s history according to what would be most favourable to their own ethnic group.

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  155. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    Shawn LH said (MY CAPS FOR CLARITY, NOT SHOUTING):

    “All cultures have ugly and violent aspects to them.”

    AGREED. I SAID THAT TOO.

    “This quickly becomes highly subjective.”

    WHEN A GROUP OF HALF-NAKED MEN SETS OUT IN THE NAME OF CULTURE TO LOOK UGLY AND THREATENING, I THINK MOST RECIPIENTS OF THEIR AGGRESSION WOULD SAY THEY SUCCEED. TO BE THOUGHT NON-THREATENING WOULD MEAN A HUGE LOSS OF MANA.

    “For example, Death Metal, which comes from European culture is ugly and violent to some, art to others.”

    AGREED.

    “The issue of culture is just far too complex to divide up in this simplistic fashion.”

    EVERYTHNG IS COMPLEX TO A LEFTY!

    “What is ugly, violent or insulting to one, is culture to another.”

    THE POINT OF MAORI CULTURE (HAKA AND POWHIRI) IS TO GET UGLY, VIOLENT AND INSULTING.

    “Who decides?”

    THANK YOU FOR ASKING. THE INDIVIDUAL DOES. EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO WALK AWAY FROM SOMETHING THEY CONSIDER UGLY, VIOLENT OR INSULTING.

    THANKS FOR MAKING MY POINT.

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  156. Redbaiter (8,823 comments) says:

    “I expect the people who actually endured the old Soviet Union would be far too polite to give you the punch in the face you earned with that comment. Pity.”

    They’d be more likely to punch you Milt, as a local and updated version of the nomenklatura class that held them captive for all of those years.

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  157. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    Psycho, now you are being a pompous ass but still devoid of either intellectual content or relevance.

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  158. nasska (11,503 comments) says:

    Well, this is it Baity……High Noon At the KB Corall.

    Since you’re an Agnostic & Shawn has Skydaddy riding on his shoulder you now probably have the life expectancy of an Eveready Red battery. :)

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  159. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “WHEN A GROUP OF HALF-NAKED MEN SETS OUT IN THE NAME OF CULTURE TO LOOK UGLY AND THREATENING, I THINK MOST RECIPIENTS OF THEIR AGGRESSION WOULD SAY THEY SUCCEED. TO BE THOUGHT NON-THREATENING WOULD MEAN A HUGE LOSS OF MANA.”

    So why is this a problem?

    “EVERYTHNG IS COMPLEX TO A LEFTY!”

    I’m not a lefty. I vote National. I am however Native American, and I suspect you would have the same rants about my culture. You’re entitled to your views. I’m entitled to think your notions of culture are narrow minded and grounded in thinly disguised racism.

    “. IT IS MAORI CULTURE TO GET UGLY, VIOLENT AND INSULTING. THAT’S THE POINT OF THE HAKA AND THE POWHIRI.

    I see nothing ugly, insulting or threatening about the Haka, then again I’m not as easily as scared as you seem to be. And I see none of those things with the Powhiri.

    “THE INDIVIDUAL DOES. EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO WALK AWAY FROM SOMETHING THEY CONSIDER UGLY, VIOLENT OR INSULTING.”

    Do you not have the use of your legs?

    THANKS FOR MAKING MY POINT.

    I’m not sure you have a point, beyond being easily scared and having a personal hatred for Maori culture.

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  160. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    EVERYTHNG IS COMPLEX TO A LEFTY!

    Ansell disagrees with Shawn, so calls him a leftie. That’s just too classic!

    THE POINT OF MAORI CULTURE (HAKA AND POWHIRI) IS TO GET UGLY, VIOLENT AND INSULTING.

    No, the point is to show solidarity, unity and strength. David Garrett knows that. I like how you equate “Culture” with two facets of a culture. Du-ah.

    EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO WALK AWAY FROM SOMETHING THEY CONSIDER UGLY, VIOLENT OR INSULTING.

    Maybe you should open your mind to it not being ugly, violent and insulting. If not, leave everyone else alone to make their own decisions.

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  161. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    @Alan, ew ew ew ew I’ve got one for you:

    EVERYTHNG IS COMPLEX TO A LEFTY!

    Obviously he had run out of brain function and resorted to the usual Righty reflexes.

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  162. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    Scott Hamilton, ever hear of, or come across Kurt Durring? (I think I recall his name properly, a German professor.)

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  163. Redbaiter (8,823 comments) says:

    Narsekissa- this loon must post around 100 comments a day to this site. He’s not the only one, (I can think of another two quite easily) but really, anyone doing that is an unbalanced obsessive you’re better staying clear of. Smearing someone like JA by comparing them to Sykes though is just too much to let slip by.

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  164. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    So are you going to man up Reddy?

    I’m a pretty tolerant guy usually, but your insults and lies about me have gone too far.

    So, it’s easy. Man up, email me, or STFU about me.

    Your choice.

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  165. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    I like how you equate “Culture” with two facets of a culture.

    To be fair, I’m not sure Ansell realises Maori culture extends beyond haka and powhiri.

    EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO WALK AWAY FROM SOMETHING THEY CONSIDER UGLY, VIOLENT OR INSULTING.

    If you’ve been forcibly detained at a haka or powhiri, they’re doing it wrong.

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  166. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “but really, anyone doing that is an unbalanced obsessive you’re better staying clear of. ”

    So you are a coward then. Good to know. All talk and no hat as my Grandpa used to say. :)

    But you could have come up with a better excuse than the supposed number of my posts. Seriously, that’s weak.

    Just say “I’m tough behind a computer, but a wimp in real life.” :)

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  167. Redbaiter (8,823 comments) says:

    “Ansell disagrees with Shawn, so calls him a leftie. That’s just too classic!”

    Ansell is correct. The loon S supports the Republican Party and votes National and also supports them wholeheartedly. How does that qualify him as anything but a typical left wing progressive?

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  168. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “Ansell is correct. The loon S supports the Republican Party and votes National and also supports them wholeheartedly. How does that qualify him as anything but a left wing progressive?”

    LMAO!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :)

    Only on planet Red could voting for National and supporting the Republicans make someone a left wing progressive!

    That is just priceless! :)

    What a moronic dick you are Reddy. Seriously, you need professional help dude! Your insanity is showing! :)

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  169. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    I need to check my left wing progressive views here. :)

    Conservative Christian. Check

    Anti-abortion. Check

    Pro-military. Check

    Pro-strong national defence. Check.

    Pro-charter schools. Check

    Pro-flat tax. Check.

    Despise Obama’s policies. Check.

    Yup, ya got me Red. I’m a left wing progessive!

    DICK! :)

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  170. Scott Hamilton (298 comments) says:

    Hi Nostalgia NZ,

    wasn’t Kurt Durring the Swiss German architect who helped Futa Helu design some of the buildings at the ‘Atenisi Institute? I didn’t meet him, because he has returned in his old age to Europe, but he’s remembered by many in Nuku’alofa. Last year a postgrad architecture students from the U of A came up to Tonga and inspected some of Durring’s and Helu buildings: she was writing a thesis about ‘Atenisi as an example of a Jeffersonian university, where the founder designed some of the architecture, and was disappointed not find Durring around.

    You can see some of the buildings Durring worked on in varying states of disrepair in my mate Paul Janman’s film Tongan Ark http://www.tonganark.net

    The German-Tongan cultural connection is strong and really fascinating. Quite a few Tongans were cheering for Germany during the recent World Cup!

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  171. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    Kia ora David,

    We gonna talk about the The Haka?

    Scott scared you off?

    Anyway, can’t wait any longer gotta go see a tane about a kuri.

    Ka kite

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  172. Redbaiter (8,823 comments) says:

    RINOs are progressive Republicans corrupted by Democrat backing

    This column documented how the far left is gaining foothold in American society and culture by taking over or infiltrating many institutions of American society as shown in the documentary by Curtis Bowers titled, “Agenda: Grinding America Down.” Now it is becoming more clear that the left has had quite a great degree of success in their efforts to infiltrate the Republican Party itself. Clearly they know if the GOP will no longer be an opposition party, they will have won because they won’t face any opposition. Now there is growing proof that the far left has infiltrated the Grand Ole Party.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/rinos-are-progressive-republicans-corrupted-by-democrat-backing

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  173. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    Hi Scott. I confess only to have known him as a buddy on his visits to Samoa and transit through NZ. He was, or is as I remember a historian? who wrote several books about Samoa and Tonga. I do remember his return to Tonga with a German film crew in relatively recent years. The German connection is fascinating, though my limited understanding of that is mostly in respect of Samoa.

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  174. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    Well RINOS don’t hold the views I do, and the Republican party is much bigger than a few RINOS.

    Face it Red, your a brainless dick, who does not understand the meaning of basic political terms, and who is too stupid to argue your case.

    Ideological purity is a Marxist idea Red, not a conservative one.

    So are you manning up and emailing me or are you admitting your a gutless coward?

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  175. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    Sorry Scott, only 1 r in During – he can be found using Kurt During on google.

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  176. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    Interesting article about JA here.

    http://www.truth.co.nz/john-ansell-is-a-racist-and-a-fool/

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  177. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    My apologies for jumping to conclusions, Shawn. I just get a lot of socialist-pessimists telling me that blindingly simple things are complex.

    Now the issue is not whether I’m afraid of the haka or powhiri. Having fronted up to TV debates wherever, whenever, with Hone Harawira, Willie Jackson, Metiria Turei, Annette Sykes etc, funnily enough I don’t scare that easily.

    I simply think they’re a ludicrous way for grown-ups to behave in a peaceloving country, and I don’t see why anyone should be forced to put up with them.

    You say, “Walk away”. And rest assured, I would (unless on a marae, when I’d accept the challenge out of courtesy to my hosts).

    But when David Garrett walked away from his parliamentary powhiri, Parliamentary Services and his leader hauled him over the coals.

    If a trainee teacher tried that, she’d be drummed out of her course.

    That’s the point Shawn. That’s the sinister thing – the compulsion to worship this nonsense. And why? Because it’s there. Because we’ve always done it. Because it’s Maori and Maori must not be questioned, no matter how deservedly.

    I think church is equally childish (though at least is not violent), but I’m not required to suffer it. If I go, I go along with it. That’s my choice.

    New Zealand civil servants and many others don’t have a choice on matters Maori.

    By the way, I have nothing whatsoever against native Americans. As a matter of fact, I’ve written and recorded a long poem about the origins of the longest place name in the US, Lake Chargoggagoggmanchaugaggoggchaubunagunggamaugg in Massachussetts.

    I do wonder, though, how you reconcile your Christianity with challenging Redbaiter to a punchup. Could this be why you don’t understand my objection to violence!

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  178. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    Shawn, are you going to publish the story where I responded to Willie?

    And are you going to tell the people that he ran away after I challenged him to debate the facts, not just hurl abuse at each other?

    The exchange ended game, set and match to me after Willie could provide not one shred of evidence for his assertions, or state why mine were wrong.

    These guys have never had to support their claims, as their opponents have always been too weak or misinformed to press them.

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  179. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    In case Shawn doesn’t play fair, here’s how my stoush with Willie Jackson ended up: http://treatygate.wordpress.com/2013/04/07/wheres-willie/

    You sure you’re not a lefty Shawn? You’re one-eyed enough!

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  180. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    John, I know, I know. I mean Willie being Maori and what not, he doesn’t speak proper England so you’re a bit lost as to why he didn’t want to play with you, a? Let me interpret to help. Reading between the lines – I think, just perhaps, John, that the sentiment of Willie’s reply was:

    I am sick of promoting you through this argument. The more I argue with you, the more public I make your ignoramus, intolerant, backward arse facing, nut bar preaching.

    Glad I could help!

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  181. hj (7,011 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt (2,316 comments) says: as it had the numbers, but the principle stands).
    …..

    We breached the Treaty left, right and centre, and all that’s being asked as compensation is that we negotiate some compensation payments that are trivial relative to the other party’s losses,

    the compensation being asked isn’t trivial: Tariana Turia says her tribe has received 1.5% of the value of what was taken so people can’t expect her tribe not to come back for more.

    show a bit of respect, and put up with the occasional haka or powhiri

    except that culture here is being used as a political tool and it involves deferring to a closed society, which is the antithesis of progress.

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  182. hj (7,011 comments) says:

    Cont…
    I stick to my position that you people are just grandstanding jerks.
    Not so long ago itstricky was taunting that one day whites would be a minority. Funny how it doesn’t bother you and your Marxist twerps that “tangata whenua” will soon be a minority. Something doesn’t quite add up does it?

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  183. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    Sir Apirana Ngata makes it quite clear in his book The Treaty of Waitangi – An Explanation that it was the chiefs who breached the Treaty by waging war on the Queen, and that they couldn’t complain that they lost land, as confiscation after losing a battle was Maori custom too.

    Who are we to believe: the greatest Maori statesman ever, or the current crop of shysters?

    Take your eye patch off and do some more reading, Psycho.

    Tricky: actually Willie was very fair to me, having me on his show for two hours. JT was livid with him for doing it, but Willie believed in giving the other side a fair go. Then he got stuck into me in his Truth column, and I asked Cam for the right of reply. Then Willie replied to me, and I replied to him.

    And that point Willie ran away because he couldn’t handle the heat of having to deal with actual facts.

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  184. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    John, a little late getting back to you, so perhaps you will see this tomorrow.

    “I do wonder, though, how you reconcile your Christianity with challenging Redbaiter to a punchup. Could this be why you don’t understand my objection to violence!”

    It’s a rare thing for me to do, but be assured it comes after a very, very long time of quite serious personal abuse from him, including repeated claims that I am a coward.

    “I simply think they’re a ludicrous way for grown-ups to behave in a peaceloving country, and I don’t see why anyone should be forced to put up with them.”

    Well, for me they are fine, in exactly the way a rugby game is fine. Being a conservative I tend to like and appreciate martial values (I grew up mostly in the US military) so I don’t have the same reaction as you to things like the Haka, or any other display of martial values. In fact I think NZ could do with more, not less.

    “That’s the point Shawn. That’s the sinister thing – the compulsion to worship this nonsense. And why? Because it’s there. Because we’ve always done it.”

    In the specific case referenced above I would agree, but that is about the context. Otherwise I really don’t see the problem, perhaps because I am a conservative. “Because we have always done it” is often for me a good reason. I value traditions.

    “I think church is equally childish (though at least is not violent), but I’m not required to suffer it.”

    I wonder then if this is a difference, in part, between “secular” and “spiritual” people? Because I am Christian (Anglican) the spiritual aspects of Maori culture don’t bother me in the way I have noticed they bother atheists on KB.

    “New Zealand civil servants and many others don’t have a choice on matters Maori.”

    That’s not a big deal for me personally, again because I value traditions. I have the same take on the parliamentary prayer.

    “You sure you’re not a lefty Shawn? You’re one-eyed enough!”

    I’m always happy to get both sides of a story, and for what it’s worth, I don’t tend to agree with Willie Jackson either.

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  185. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    And yes, I am sure I am a conservative. However being NA (Cherokee) gives me a rather different take on these issues, and some people, like Redbaiter, just cannot get their heads around that. They assume that if I say I’m conservative I must be on the same page as them on every issue.

    And, reality and real human beings are more complex than that.

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  186. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Who are we to believe: the greatest Maori statesman ever, or the current crop of shysters?

    Or to put it another way, who are we to believe: a guy staking his political career on Maori integration into the victors’ society, or professional historians who’ve examined the evidence of what actually happened?

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  187. Griff (7,700 comments) says:

    Have you examined what actually happened mad fish come?
    Ansell is often more correct than the crap we are feed on the treaty
    Maori seeded control of the country to the rule of English law after spending forty years in an orgy of inter tribal genocide .
    When a few holdout tribes attempted to continue the indiscriminate killing they were subject to legal sanctions including the loss of land.
    We are now expected to return this land to the decedents of a bunch of murderous terrorists and also pay them compensation
    The result of the revival in Maori culture is obvious
    Increasing lawless behavior more kids beaten to death more crime more violence and even more poverty.
    The treaty gave us sovereignty of this country by democratic process.
    The present fashion for appeasement is destroying Democratic process in favor of a cartel of unelected tribal leaders.

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  188. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    So much wrong in one comment, Griff.
    ‘When a few holdout tribes attempted to continue the indiscriminate killing they were subject to legal sanctions including the loss of land’
    Feel free to name one scholar who cites this as the cause of the New Zealand Wars? Do you feel the confiscations, even from tribes not in ‘rebellion’, were justified?
    ‘Increasing lawless behavior more kids beaten to death more crime more violence and even more poverty for the receivers’
    Not borne out by the statistics. Crime rates have been falling for years. There is little true poverty in New Zealand and no sign that it is increasing.
    How was the treaty a ‘democratic process’?

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  189. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:


    And that point Willie ran away because he couldn’t handle the heat of having to deal with actual facts.

    Actually, it clearly says he had had enough of promoting you through his own popularity I. E. His show.

    I guess you are probably the sort of person that counts it as a ‘win’ if they badger the other person to the point of exhaustion… …

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  190. ShawnLH (5,025 comments) says:

    “When a few holdout tribes attempted to continue the indiscriminate killing they were subject to legal sanctions including the loss of land.
    We are now expected to return this land to the decedents of a bunch of murderous terrorists and also pay them compensation
    The result of the revival in Maori culture is obvious
    Increasing lawless behavior more kids beaten to death more crime more violence and even more poverty.”

    Sorry Griff, but Mike is right. Your take on this is a form of historical revisionism that makes anything written by the liberal-left pale by comparison.

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  191. Aamiene (1 comment) says:

    No ShawnLH – Griff and John Ansell are the correct ones. It’s the other side who are repeatedly re-writing history, mostly because it’s very profitable to do so.

    As for the content of the article itself – it is totally unacceptable to use our education system for the purposes of indoctrinating children to a political ideology full stop. No one’s job or exam results should depend on them agreeing with someone elses views on culture, religion or anything else other then knowledge of the bare facts.

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  192. LabourDoesntWork (290 comments) says:

    Universities should welcome critical dissent, not squash it.

    But they don’t. Fuck ‘em.

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