Dotcom has another go at Xero

August 16th, 2014 at 5:53 am by David Farrar

Chris Keall reports:

Not content with trolling over the Hager book, decided to pick another fight with business icon , baiting him over ’s share price.

Get off the grass, Kim.

The political party Dotcom founded is campaigning for cheaper and better broadband connectivity, domestically and internationally. Drury has pushed hard on both those issues. So you’d think he’d be someone Dotcom would respect. …

Dotcom is claiming credit for Xero’s share price dropping 20%, as if this is a proud achievement.

Xero has 330,000 small businesses as customers, and has created 900 jobs – mainly in New Zealand.  They are our our most successful Internet based company. Rod personally has also been a huge champion for Internet issues.

Yet the founder of the Internet Party denigrates him, for he won’t worship at the Dotcom altar. So again do we think Doctom put $4 million into the Internet Party because he is passionate about Internet issues, or because he wants utu?

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51 Responses to “Dotcom has another go at Xero”

  1. Mobile Michael (464 comments) says:

    Sounds like Dotcom is a narcissist with that self – congratulatory tweet. I expect that once he lands in the USA he might find that the world does not revolve around him.

    Or once Laila Harre has become an MP, how she will stop taking calls from him.

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  2. Nostalgia-NZ (5,283 comments) says:

    Kim’s a silly kid at times. I think he needs to spend some time in the corner.

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  3. AM1 (17 comments) says:

    It’s like Dotcom knows he’s going to be extradited, knows he’s going to jail so he’s just going for broke by causing as much trouble as he can. What a tool.

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  4. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  5. bringbackdemocracy (428 comments) says:

    Could Krim Dotcon please make your way to the departure lounge, your extradition flight is about to leave.

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  6. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Mobile Michael (424 comments) says:
    August 16th, 2014 at 6:11 am

    He is unlikely to have a cell phone where he is going – maybe Laila is cleverer than we think. A person to fund her campaign, get her back into politics, and then that person no longer being around to make demands – sounds like a perfect arrangement to me, at least for one side.

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  7. duggledog (1,589 comments) says:

    ‘Just saying'; well, choose a side Judith. You have the opportunity in a few weeks.

    I think part of the reason John Key will be re-elected is that the choice is very stark: you vote for him and get the Nats, all together on the same page, for right or wrong, Dirty Politics or not, or you get the other lot and as most people know, governing by committee is not going to work.

    Other reasons include the fact that again, rightly or wrongly, John Key went out into the world, and became fabulously successful on his own, regardless of his back story, and that is the sort of person you want working for you. Or should that be hustling. Who cares? It’s a big tough world out there. Anyway he did what he did legally and is not facing life in prison. You can’t compare KDC and John Key and how they made their personal fortunes. Trying to makes you look silly

    What really makes me laugh is that Kim seems to think that if there is a change of government, he will somehow get off his extradition. He’s putting his faith (and his money) into a bunch of unscrupulous weirdos who will sell him down the river as quickly as they did their own principles. Why he can’t see this staggers me.

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  8. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Some people deserve a good dose of utu.

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  9. prosper (172 comments) says:

    Judith most business strive to do the right thing. As do churches, schools, medical practices, charities etc. There are always a few bad eggs that provide ammunition for the jealous to write articles, the novelists to write books, films etc.. Don’t be sucked in by the fiction.

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  10. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    “Do we really believe that no one suffered a loss, in order for John Key to amass his fortune?”

    One money changer wins and another loses. I couldn’t care less.

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  11. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ duggledog (1,398 comments) says:
    August 16th, 2014 at 7:21 am

    First let’s get this straight, despite the fact I like Laila, there is no way in this world I would ever vote for the party whilst KDC is part of it. So despite my comments, they were not in support of him.

    I do not think futures trading is an admirable profession. Sorry, but I’ve seen people who get out of bed at 5 a.m. and toil at jobs that they sweat all day long at, that leaves them exhausted and covered in mud and dirt – that more importantly have not used other peoples money to make them rich – they are the admirable ones – they are the people with the highest integrity in my view – bankers are nothing more than ‘users’ – they are JUST on the right side of the legal spectrum, but they are certainly NOT on the high side of integrity.

    I agree regarding John Key being re-elected – it is not because he is the ‘most popular PM ever’ as many like to claim (statistics prove that wrong anyway) but because there is no decent opposition – and because the games played by all sides has muddied the water so much, than no one really knows what is going on.

    Is that a good thing for the country? I doubt it – but then with nothing else on offer – it is our only choice. I believe the truth of what NZ has will come out in this next term. John Key will not survive – he will resign with excuses before the ‘shit hits the fan’. He will be Sir John Key within a few years, however, will end up being as much respected as Sir Robert Muldoon.

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  12. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    I’ll also add that I regard the share market as just legalised gambling. You pay with money, you get burned. You win some and you lose some – I have absolutely no sympathy for people who lose money by making such investments and then cry when it doesn’t go their way. That’s the game boys!

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  13. Reid (16,638 comments) says:

    Do we really believe that no one suffered a loss, in order for John Key to amass his fortune?

    Judith thanks for saying that, for therein lies the galloping mentalism at full roar which lurks between the ears of every single lefty in the land. The truly believed but fallacious mindset that the only possible way to accumulate wealth is to take it off someone else. Growing the pie is not in the leftist’s tiny little mind, it doesn’t occur to them that it could be otherwise. And yet, it is.

    While indeed there are a number of selfish bastards who do steal and plunder both in and outside of the law, and who would sell grandma down the river if it can them even more cash, they are the exceptions to the rule and always have been. The fact leftists believe they are the norm and this is their universal belief, does not make you idiots correct.

    Bill Gates is a great example of how wealth really works. The way most wealthy people (i.e. not those evil exceptions above) get wealthy is by adding value to other people and in return the laws of universal karma bring them back a tiny fraction of said added value. Read Napoleon Hill’s ‘Think and Grow Rich’ to get a clue. There are many other references to this equation.

    You think about what Microsoft has done to the world in terms of adding value since it started. Every single time anyone anywhere switches on a computer running MS software and does something with it, they are getting value of some kind from that. You add that value up for every single person and organisation that does that every single day since Microsoft sold its first product and how much value do you get? No doubt it would be in the thousands of trillions if not into the quad or even quintillion range. Right?

    The stock value of Microsoft is a fraction of that and Gates’ wealth is a fraction of the stock value of Microsoft. See what I mean about fractions coming back to roost?

    But that’s how it works. That is how wealth happens and you can apply that to you, when you walk into your lecture theatre and give value to your students and in return you get a fraction back in the form of your rem. And same with everyone.

    It’s not a zero-sum game and it never has been. Like I say, the research is freely available. If you have an open mind, you will do it.

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  14. duggledog (1,589 comments) says:

    Nobody thinks futures trading is admirable, but it has been going on for a while and I don’t think it’s something that’s going to go away. Or bankers, or usury, or human foolishness. Everybody makes money out of somebody else at some point, it’s the human story and it’s how the whole thing works. Some are just better at it than others.

    My father got up at 5 am every day for his whole working life, he was a dairy farmer. Other people’s money bought his milk, it didn’t make him fabulously wealthy but he did all right.

    WTF do you like about Laila Harre! I can’t think of a more loathsome woman for the life of me!

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  15. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Lochinver Station was use by the Stevenson family as a tax dodge so it actually belongs to the people.

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  16. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    “Everybody makes money out of somebody else at some point, it’s the human story and it’s how the whole thing works. Some are just better at it than others.”

    But most people add value to raw materials such as your father’s grass, but money changers don’t add value to anything except themselves.

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  17. kowtow (8,784 comments) says:

    Shrewdith says……

    “A person to fund her campaign, get her back into politics, and then that person no longer being around to make demands –sounds like a perfect arrangement to me, at least for one side.”

    Sounds like Laila’s found a sugar daddy.

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  18. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    Top post Reid. Well explained.

    But don’t you on occasions go off about the Gnomes of Zurich ect?

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  19. ross411 (882 comments) says:

    Reid (16,041 comments) says:
    August 16th, 2014 at 7:41 am
    Judith thanks for saying that, for therein lies the galloping mentalism at full roar which lurks between the ears of every single lefty in the land.

    Judith is a troll. She posts vague assertions as if they have been proven, then proceeds to make multiple posts based around the undeniability of her unproven assertions. Like she is ever going to absorb any information anyone writes up to educate her.

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  20. hmmokrightitis (1,595 comments) says:

    What ross said, and then – has anyone noticed :) – there is ALWAYS a link somehow back to John Key.

    Tell me judith, when you’re out shopping, and you pick up some cheese, do you scream and curse his name, because of the price of milk? Im almost certain you do.

    KDS alive and well in that one.

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  21. Scott1 (579 comments) says:

    It is easy to hate money traders but they can hypothetically create value.

    The arbitrage that they do in theory should do things like lower the interest rate for a borrower in a high interest country at a cost to the interest rates of a low interest country if currency fluctuations are such that that makes sense. They can also even out fluctuations in currencies making decision making easier for trading and lowering the cost of your goods including life sustaining ones.

    In practice it does not always work that way – but often it does. So a money trader could – if he behaved reasonably ethically – argue he was contributing a lot of good to the world and argue that where they cause harm, they merely reflect the harm that exists in the world already (for example where they are the catalyst but not cause of the collapse of a currency).

    The other question to ask is is there a better model – would you for example make trading illegal and what effect would that have? Maybe there is a policy in there that might work – but maybe it would have considerable negative consequences.

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  22. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    Reid @7:41 – Well said

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  23. radvad (772 comments) says:

    Lick my boots OR ELSE

    Just another insight into what happens if megalomaniacs gain power.

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  24. G152 (388 comments) says:

    Judith
    Pitiful attempts to ‘explain’ what ever it is you’re on about is losing.
    Which you do so well!

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  25. Reid (16,638 comments) says:

    don’t you on occasions go off about the Gnomes of Zurich ect?

    Harriet all I was doing was explaining a universal law that operates in our world, same as gravity and same as Newtonian mechanics. All laws like these are amoral, that is, they are neither moral nor immoral, they just are.

    For example you can use gravity and aerodynamic laws for good or you can use it to drop bombs on people. Gravity and aerodynamics don’t care, it just is what it is.

    It’s the people who misuse and exploit laws such as those of wealth accumulation who I identify and discuss and when I do so, I’m not in anyway making a value judgement on the laws which put them into the position to do the things I’m identifying and discussing.

    Thanks OneTrack.

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  26. wat dabney (3,814 comments) says:

    Judith,

    Do we really believe that no one suffered a loss, in order for John Key to amass his fortune?

    As Reid explained, wealth is created. It is not a zero-sum game.

    The example you were looking for, of people enriching themselves at the expense of others, would be the state-sector unions which run their “Labour Party” as a vehicle to plunder the workers.

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  27. Scott (1,821 comments) says:

    Why does Kim Dotcom get so much oxygen and why is he still in the country? It will be a great day when he gets extradited in my opinion.

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  28. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    Please stop replying to Judith. She is the most successful diverter here and successfully diverts almost any post she starts on. Seriously, from Kim Dotcom being a contemptible poser to discussing wealth creation? That’s a level up in diversion land.

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  29. Yoza (1,914 comments) says:

    Reid (16,042 comments) says:
    August 16th, 2014 at 7:41 am

    [Judith]“Do we really believe that no one suffered a loss, in order for John Key to amass his fortune?”

    Judith thanks for saying that, for therein lies the galloping mentalism at full roar which lurks between the ears of every single lefty in the land. The truly believed but fallacious mindset that the only possible way to accumulate wealth is to take it off someone else.

    Coercing those at the bottom of the heap to hand over what little they have is the shaky premise on which the teetering capitalist system is founded.

    Growing the pie is not in the leftist’s tiny little mind, it doesn’t occur to them that it could be otherwise. And yet, it is.

    The illusion of the growing pie is meaningless to those who are never going to be allowed a piece. Expecting everyone else to watch from the margins as a bunch of bloated parasites dance around their precious ‘growing’ pie is becoming a tattered cliché.

    While indeed there are a number of selfish bastards who do steal and plunder both in and outside of the law, and who would sell grandma down the river if it can them even more cash, they are the exceptions to the rule and always have been. The fact leftists believe they are the norm and this is their universal belief, does not make you idiots correct.

    The evidence provided by the fall out from the global financial crisis along with centuries of being at the sharp end of rich people ‘benevolence’ is what makes us idiots on the left correct, to personally experience the ongoing paradigm reinforces that belief.

    Bill Gates is a great example of how wealth really works. The way most wealthy people (i.e. not those evil exceptions above) get wealthy is by adding value to other people and in return the laws of universal karma bring them back a tiny fraction of said added value. Read Napoleon Hill’s ‘Think and Grow Rich’ to get a clue. There are many other references to this equation.

    You think about what Microsoft has done to the world in terms of adding value since it started. Every single time anyone anywhere switches on a computer running MS software and does something with it, they are getting value of some kind from that. You add that value up for every single person and organisation that does that every single day since Microsoft sold its first product and how much value do you get? No doubt it would be in the thousands of trillions if not into the quad or even quintillion range. Right?

    Bill Gates is hardly a shining example of happy clappy capitalism. He didn’t invent computer software he contributed to its development. Operating system software would have come into being with or without Bill Gates amassing a personal fortune as a consequence of the endeavour.

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  30. trout (945 comments) says:

    Oh Judith , so much to say, and oh so ignorant. Do you know anything about futures trading? Do you understand how futures traders derisk the agricultural sector, thereby allowing ‘hard working’ farmers to be able to get on with the job without worrying about fluctuating prices and exchange rates. Sure, futures traders are gamblers, they are rewarded for risk (a virtue of capitalism). I guess your solution is fixed prices, or, God forbid, guaranteed prices (subsidies). Let’s go back to the Muldoon era of subsidies, or the corn glut in the US when corn was piled up in the streets because farmers were paid but there were no buyers. Or Soviet collectivist farming which managed to accomplish widespread starvation.

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  31. adze (2,129 comments) says:

    What labrator said. I stopped reading the majority of Judith’s comments weeks ago.

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  32. wat dabney (3,814 comments) says:

    Coercing those at the bottom of the heap to hand over what little they have is the shaky premise on which the teetering capitalist system is founded.”

    There is no coercion, so your entire analysis is profoundly wrong.

    Capitalism, in fact, is the first economic “system” in the entire history of the World not based on coercion. That’s how wrong you are.

    Free trade, by definition, is voluntary. It enriches both parties.

    Never forget: Socialism, Communism and Fascism are all coercive systems of government.

    The illusion of the growing pie is meaningless to those who are never going to be allowed a piece.

    The living standard of the average (and even bottom decile) Western worker is astonishingly high.

    It is little short of a miracle.

    And it is the only system compatible with human rights.

    A double miracle.

    The evidence provided by the fall out from the global financial crisis…

    That’s the problem when you create the leftist dream of a government big enough and powerful enough to “redistribute” earnings to politically-favoured constituents: there are other special-interest groups out there, and with far deeper pockets than yours. So thanks, lefties, for handing our hard-earned money to the wealthy bankers. Remember, this was the very antithesis of Capitalism.

    Bill Gates is hardly a shining example of happy clappy capitalism. He didn’t invent computer software he contributed to its development. Operating system software would have come into being with or without Bill Gates amassing a personal fortune as a consequence of the endeavour.

    The important point here is that basic research can (and has been) conducted under many systems of governence; from Capitalist ones which respect human rights through to those disastrous leftist enforced collectives such as socialism/communism/fascism/nazism.

    The particular benefit of Capitalism in this regard, then, is not the basic research; it is in bringing the benefits of that research to the masses.

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  33. Reid (16,638 comments) says:

    Coercing those at the bottom of the heap to hand over what little they have is the shaky premise on which the teetering capitalist system is founded.

    No it’s not. Capitalism is simply the imperfect but nevertheless best mechanism we have available to us to determine supply and demand which in turn determines market prices. Like democracy, it’s a flawed mechanism, apart from all the alternatives. Like democracy, it gets distorted and corrupted in many ways and in many places to greater or lessor degrees. But just because that happens, does not change the fact that like democracy, it’s the best alternative out of every other one available.

    If humans were different then we would be able to so manage our societies that we would take only what we need and we would leave the rest on the pile for our fellow humans to take their share and we would freely give to other piles according to the gifts we had been granted as part of who we are and the skills we had cultivated through our wisdom and application.

    But humans aren’t like that and pretending they are is madness in the same way that tilting at windmills is madness. Which is a nice segue into your next comment…

    The illusion of the growing pie is meaningless to those who are never going to be allowed a piece.

    Look you moron, it’s a fucking law of the universe. YOU are the one who CHOOSES to partake or not in it. No-one “allows” you and no-one has the power to grant OR DENY you permission because it’s a fucking law of the universe. It’s just there. Humans did not create it, just like humans did not create gravity, which is also just there, as part of this framework of things we call our world.

    The evidence provided by the fall out from the global financial crisis along with centuries of being at the sharp end of rich people ‘benevolence’ is what makes us idiots on the left correct, to personally experience the ongoing paradigm reinforces that belief.

    The GFC is an example of the distortion I spoke of above, whereby politicians changed the laws to allow CDO’s and idiots who don’t understand markets CHOSE to put their money into such an environment and as a consequence of the combination of the distortion arranged by a tiny cabal of evil people and the massive idiocy of many millions of money morons, the morons lost. But that’s their fault because if they had a clue they would have listened to people like me, who was telling people back in 2005 the GFC was on the way and to get out of the markets. Like I said, it’s a law. And as a law, it’s neither moral nor immoral, it’s amoral. Just like gravity is. BTW if you want some free advice then keep an eye on the markets because they’re on the cusp of a massive crash that’s going to make 1929 look like a church picnic and which is going to alter the geopolitical landscape because the USD is going to collapse along with the DOW, the NASDAQ, the Footsie and all the rest of them.

    Bill Gates is hardly a shining example of happy clappy capitalism. He didn’t invent computer software he contributed to its development.

    Woosh. That’s the sound of the very point I was making flying straight over your dumb head. Bill Gates is just like our very own Graeme Hart. Neither of them tap away and make things. But they organise and marshall resources that do that without which the value the organisations they respectively started or own, would not provide value to others therefore would not provide them with their fractional returns on that value which they call their net worth.

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  34. gump (1,664 comments) says:

    The difference between Mega and Xero is that only of them has ever made a profit for its shareholders. The other company might make a profit at an unspecified future date – but that’s not guaranteed.

    As much as I dislike saying it, Dotcom is a better businessman than Drury. Profit is more valuable than potential.

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  35. wat dabney (3,814 comments) says:

    gump,

    I think you’ll find bank-robbers also qualify as “better businessmen” according to your analysis.

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  36. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    Profit is more valuable than potential.

    Not understanding the SaaS business model is fine but equating shareholder returns to being a better businessman? Please check the last entrepeneur of the year awards for NZ and the shortlist for world enterpeneur of the year. Why did Bill Gates never return a dividend? Because he had something better to being doing with it, kind of the basis of the sharemarket, efficient deployment of capital.

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  37. davidp (3,588 comments) says:

    Dotcom is a narcissist who likes to have the world revolve around him and he likes his toys. He pays Rhythm and Vines to let him pretend to be a musician in front of a crowd. He pays bodyguards to hang around him like a posse while he plays video games. He pays Harre and Harawira to make him the Visionary-for-Life of his own political party, and loves the crowds of chanting losers. He’d like to have the Government of New Zealand as his plaything, and there are slack-minded fools like Harre and the chanters who are prepared to sell us to him.

    So it offends him off when he finds someone whose life doesn’t revolve around Dotcom, and who can’t be bought. John Key is one of those people… It still eats up Dotcom that Key hadn’t ever heard about him before Dotcom’s arrest, which is why he has spent so much time, effort, and money trying to “prove” that Key MUST have heard of Dotcom. With Peters stoking Dotcom’s oversized ego, telling us that Key must have heard of Dotcom since Dotcom lives in a very big house. And it eats him up that Rod Drury is the nearest thing the NZ IT industry has to a universally respected voice, rather than being a clown and a crook like Dotcom.

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  38. davidp (3,588 comments) says:

    gump>As much as I dislike saying it, Dotcom is a better businessman than Drury. Profit is more valuable than potential.

    Xero is a sustainable business. Mega, like all Dotcom’s previous businesses, is destined to crash and burn at some stage. His business model is to loot the company to fund his party lifestyle (and Harre and the other greyshirts) and then flee the country as it all comes crashing down around him. He’s the Bernie Madoff of the IT industry.

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  39. goldnkiwi (1,552 comments) says:

    Bring forward the extradition hearings, even though down for February I am sure .com can read the evidence against him in the States.

    If he needs to keep in touch with Laila, well I guess the internet thingy is good for that lol. ;)

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  40. V (751 comments) says:

    What a (sad to say it) now typical beat up by DPF. Nothing truthful to this post in the slightest.

    Kim Dotcoms tweet was:
    I tweeted on July27 that @Xero by self declared Internet Generation Leader @RodDrury is totally overvalued. Since then the stock dropped 20%

    All he said was the stock was overvalued. (as it is for a company that is still losing money). Anybody who has followed NASDAQ stocks can see many of the stocks within the index have fallen 40-50% since their individual highs.
    In that statement above I don’t see KDC “claiming credit”.

    Lets also not forget how this thing started with Drury essentially making a personal comment about KDC. Are we no longer allowed a right to reply in this country, simply because we’re all supposed to worship the Xero CEO?

    Of course David has a vested interest as an owner of the stock. Perhaps he would have been better to take some money off the table earlier?

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  41. adze (2,129 comments) says:

    Lets also not forget how this thing started with Drury essentially making a personal comment about KDC. Are we no longer allowed a right to reply in this country, simply because we’re all supposed to worship the Xero CEO?

    Yes, and KDC gave at least as good as he got at the time (even though Drury wasn’t addressing him directly). Since then though it’s pretty clear that KDC has added Drury to his personal “shit list”, which is in line with his history of narcissistic vindictiveness.

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  42. V (751 comments) says:

    @adze,

    Well it reads more tongue in cheek to me. Also a bit rich to talk about “shit lists”, if anyone has a demonstrated such a list it is Whaleoil with dpf following along with the same old lines. I’m not sure why he parrots Whale so much nowadays.

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  43. adze (2,129 comments) says:

    Whaleoil is vindictive, yes, but we’re talking about Drury and KDC.

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  44. SPC (5,787 comments) says:

    It is an achievement for those who now have a chance to buy into Xero at an affordable price.

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  45. gump (1,664 comments) says:

    @SPC

    Why buy into Xero now? It will get even cheaper with time.

    The company has never made a profit and has no pathway to profits that would justify its current valuation. The only way to make money on this stock is to find somebody dumber than yourself to buy your shares.

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  46. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    The company has never made a profit…

    You keep saying that without ever understanding why. It’s all in the annual report. Read it.

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  47. gump (1,664 comments) says:

    @labrator

    I have read it. And that’s why I don’t own any Xero shares.

    They have no means of ever earning back the capital that’s already been spent on developing and operating their product.

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  48. SPC (5,787 comments) says:

    http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/intu

    http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/intu/stock-chart

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  49. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    @gump Other than the 284,000 paying customers and $93 million annualised monthly revenue? You’re reading something different to me then.

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  50. ross001 (221 comments) says:

    I presume DPF hss no shares in Xero otherwise he would have disclosed the fact. But seeing as Xero is unprofitable, it cannot be a surprise to see their share price fall.

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  51. muggins (3,816 comments) says:

    Once again I seem to be joining in this debate when everybody else has left, but if anyone is reading this I did say a month or so ago that those people who had Xero shares should have sold when they reached forty bucks. That was way to high for what they are really worth. Even $20 is a bit on the high side in my ‘umble opinion.

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