General Debate 19 August 2014

August 19th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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138 Responses to “General Debate 19 August 2014”

  1. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  2. Linda Reid (341 comments) says:

    Question: We know Internet party candidates are being paid a salary – should that money be regarded as campaign contributions and or campaign expenses?

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  3. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Prostitution

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  4. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Toast? You’re thinking of Tostee.

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  5. smttc (767 comments) says:

    Tom, you say it like you really care.

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  6. mjw (402 comments) says:

    So Nicky Hager’s point is completely proved now. There was a secret dirty politics operation out of the PM’s office. The whaledump provides more evidence, including the PM’s staffer sending an attack ad to Whaleoil which was then published within 24 hours. Here’s the link.

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2013/09/cunliffe-two-face/

    Straight from the PM’s staffer, published within 24 hours.

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  7. hj (7,186 comments) says:

    Paying to publish blog posts to attack public health advocates is to be expected, given the industries involved, says Prof Boyd Swinburn, an obesity authority who will speak in Dunedin today.

    Prof Swinburn, professor of population nutrition and global health at the University of Auckland, said his only surprise from the new book Dirty Politics is that the National Party appeared to be deploying the same tactics as the multinational firms that push tobacco, junk food and alcohol.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/313004/whale-oil-toxic-rubbish-professor

    Why do WO and DPF attack Winston? immigration? “Growing Auckland’s population to achieve agglomeration benefits”?

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  8. Dave Mann (1,249 comments) says:

    @Dennis Horne: Can we all play? I’ve got a word too. Sandwich.

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  9. wreck1080 (4,002 comments) says:

    Gotta say, Cameron Slater is a nasty piece of work.

    I still think he does a good job and is usually rather reasonable in his blogging.

    But, now i also think he is a nasty person (and some of his cohorts).

    So, do I continue to read whaleoil despite this dichotomy? Probably!

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  10. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Linda Reid (405 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 8:04 am

    If they are paying income tax on that money, it has already been defined!

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  11. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @Dennis Horne (2,082 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 8:05 am

    Prostitution

    No Dennis, you are far too old to get into that game. Think of your back!

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  12. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    You lot seem to be ignoring the fact that a lot of Hager’s material is coming from within the National Party, as the more conservative and patrician members react with disgust to the far right sleaze merchants like Slater, Collins, Key, Lusk, and Farrar who are attempting to take over the party.

    Who among you thinks Collins is fit to hold office?

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  13. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Dichotomy? So Slater is both dissolute and resolute.

    Dave Mann. Yes, you can play.

    Judith. You’re not on your feet a lot.

    Tom. Collins’ job is to see the Killer Bee doesn’t get the honey pot.

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  14. IGM (624 comments) says:

    wreck: What about Bradbury, Espiners, Campbell, Armstrong, Vance? Need one go any further.

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  15. Lindsay Addie (1,342 comments) says:

    Wreck1080,

    I agree with your comment about Slater being a nasty piece of work.

    He certainly showed his ignorance with his comments about Christchurch. I personally know numerous people who have had a tough time because of the quakes. That has nothing to do with their politics whatsoever.

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  16. flash2846 (289 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson I am almost with you regarding sacking Judith Collins for the simple reason that we expect higher standards from National MPs. If we were to apply the same standards to Labour MPs there would be non of them left.

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  17. smttc (767 comments) says:

    Tom, time to take your meds mate.

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  18. kowtow (8,945 comments) says:

    wreck 1080

    Slater is a nasty piece of work. I don’t think he is reasonable though.

    In respect of the RC church he is an appalling bigot. I would not want to be associated with that at all nor should any major political party, especially a supposedly conservative one.

    Problem now for certain folk in National is that they lay down with a dog and have come away with a case of fleas.

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  19. Lance (2,719 comments) says:

    @Tom Jackson
    If KB is such a sleaze pit and DPF such a “sleaze merchant”
    Why the FUCK do you continue to infest this site with your presence?

    The wondrous and saintly nirvana of the Standard would better suit your precious and pious mutterings.

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  20. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Tom Jackson (2,466 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 8:14 am

    Collins has not been fit to hold office for some time.

    I can only say what ever she’s got on Key, it must be a really strong.

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  21. burt (7,441 comments) says:

    Meanwhile in partisan whack job land – Dotcom claims discovering un protected information on the internet is hacking and lovers of big government who are scared of freedom and need nanny to spend other people’s money on them start holding Clark up as an example of an ethical PM.

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  22. Colville (2,319 comments) says:

    Whale can be a utterly unhinged freak throwing shit at anyone who comes close to his cage.
    I personally do not read his blog much as I need to wade thru so much dross designed to just get mouse clicks but i do drop by most days to look to see if there is anything there of value.
    Sometimes he scores an absolute minter of a goal, rare tho. Often its an own goal.
    Sometimes he is just a hypocrite, like he thinks he has his God on his side, publishes a bit of his fave book each day, yet he attacks Colin Craig as being a nutter. Cam would be a Cons voter if he wasnt being paid by the Nats to say otherwise.

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  23. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ flash2846 (193 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 8:20 am

    I don’t think anyone could disagree with your statement, the only problem is, New Zealanders are looking to elect the ‘best’ team. That is the team that is not just the same as everyone else, but is the better team for the job, because they are ‘above’ the others.

    If National wants to be that team, they need to show that this circus stops now. Cut the umbilical cord to ‘dirty politics’, hold those who have taken part accountable, admit they’ve made mistakes, and move forward promising to clean up their act. Continuing to deny, deflect and ignore is not going to work.

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  24. Lance (2,719 comments) says:

    So has anyone on the left actually come out and said that theft/burglary is wrong?

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  25. kowtow (8,945 comments) says:

    “Who among you thinks Collins is fit to hold office?”

    A minister releasing the name of a public servant to a blogger.

    Simply beyond the pale.

    She should go for that and Key is wrong to endorse her.

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  26. burt (7,441 comments) says:

    Lance

    It’s different when the left do it !

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  27. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Westminster and Westminster-style government has always depended on “leaking”, and that’s all this is. Unsavoury it may be but it’s the unspoken-about system that keeps the wheels turning. Briefing your buddies.

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  28. Rick Rowling (816 comments) says:

    Now for something completely different…

    Anyone here had any joy using a Skype number & handset on home broadband?

    Or another VOIP that includes a “landline” number?

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  29. Chuck Bird (4,915 comments) says:

    Does any one know how the rape laws work in Sweden? It says on the news that the Swedish women invited him to bed and are now alleging some sort of sexual assault. No doubt Labour would be looking a such a law if the got into power.

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  30. hj (7,186 comments) says:

    When I heard what Whale Oil said about Cantabrians I thought of a certain type of real estate agent. Everyone knows the type: step on anyone weak, naive, isolated, but knows where to maintain good reputation.

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  31. wreck1080 (4,002 comments) says:

    @igm::

    I’m not talking about those people.

    However since you bought it up, you cannot seriously say Campbell is a nasty person . You may disagree with his views (which generally I do) but he seems fairly civil to others.

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  32. lilman (975 comments) says:

    Would love to read Cunliffe and Goffs and Fentons emails for the last 4 years.

    Now they wouldnt behave in a poor manner would they?

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  33. Than (515 comments) says:

    Now that the hacker is feeding material directly to the Herald, how much longer can Farrar and the other sleaze merchants hold on?

    Now that the hacker is feeding material directly to the Herald, how much longer can Tom Jackson and others on the left keep claiming that the half-true trivia he’s revealing is somehow worse than hacking and stealing emails for political advantage?

    Politicians leak to their favoured media, thats been happening forever. If you think Labour and the Greens don’t leak I’ve got a bridge in Nigeria I can sell you. But hacking people’s emails is a new and worrying development. Finding the identity of the hacker is the important mystery here.

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  34. hj (7,186 comments) says:

    Dunne got shown around London by Rothmans, someone got 100 Q for (something) but Dung says nothing to see. He doesn’t know why they would want to show him around London (he forgets how he made noises on their behalf).

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  35. Mark1 (92 comments) says:

    Very true lilman. I am very curious to read Cunliffe’s emails – has Karen Price put him in the dog box? I hear he has a thing for lawyers.

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  36. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    “…..Cam would be a Cons voter if he wasnt being paid by the Nats to say otherwise….”

    Jealous of Mr Craig I once read here.

    And from someone who would probably know. Cam apparently wanted to start a party, or back one a few years back. But it appears it would have upset his father and his National conections/past[or something similar].

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  37. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Chuck. Sex laws in Sweden are very peculiar. Don’t use a condom when requested: sexual assault, translated into “attempted rape”. Cf Assange.

    Men caught paying for sex are heavily fined and may be imprisoned. (Within marriage except, presumably!)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden

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  38. MT_Tinman (3,322 comments) says:

    Who other than the taxpayer is buying all these Horrible Hagar books the slime keep telling me are selling?

    We know it’s not the lefties – they borrow or steal everything they use, never, ever, pay for it – and the only people on the right I’ve seen comment on the book would have been sent/given a free (to them) copy.

    I was in a book shop yesterday for about half an hour.

    Busy shop.

    Had a dozen copies on their counter.

    Still had that dozen when I left, I never saw anyone even glance at them.

    So, again I ask, who is actually buying this fantasy?

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  39. lilman (975 comments) says:

    Surely not,not the man of the people and a lawyer,can see another Campbell sorry interview coming up.
    I wonder if his fixer upper has a spare room,I guess he maybe spending some time in it soon.

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  40. MT_Tinman (3,322 comments) says:

    lilman (907 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 8:36 am
    Would love to read Cunliffe and Goffs and Fentons emails for the last 4 years.

    [SHUDDER] :-(

    I doubt I’d have the courage to pay some poor bastard to read them for me.

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  41. Harriet (5,201 comments) says:

    Chuck#

    I read that one charge is related to him either removing a condom or not putting one on. Apparently it is ‘sexual assault’ or a similar criminal charge in Sweden.

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  42. Ashley Schaeffer (535 comments) says:

    I read that it didn’t become sexual assault until one of the ladies found out she wasn’t the only one Assange was sleeping with at the time.

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  43. hj (7,186 comments) says:

    Interesting comments on RadioNZ. They claim that there is no equivalent on the left to Whale oil.

    Remember Greg Clydesdale? He caused quite a fuss in 2008 when the Dom uncritically ran a frontpage story based on his “research” that concluded Pacific Islanders are a drain on a society who are, amongst other sins, crowding ‘our’ beaches (dismantled from an academic perspective here and a class/ethnic perspective here, ripped apart in an interview on RNZ here, and embraced by Lockwood ‘small hands’ Smith here). Well, he’s back, spouting more anti-immigrant trash, and Farrar’s shilling for him.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-shills-for-nzs-most-racist-academic/
    The left come from a different angle: they have a broad right/wrong view of society. The state and capitalism are wrong and those on the other side are victims. The white population are underlings of the capitalist system having benefited and exploited the other side. Anyone who criticises the victims are fair game as is anyone who props up the status quo.

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  44. hmmokrightitis (1,596 comments) says:

    Sat through 4 highly enjoyable House of Cards episodes last night, makes this Hager stuff look like small beer indeed :) If anyone thinks its only the right doing this, they are stupid or fanatical. Or both.

    I can imagine how those on the left – please show me Im wrong, Tom, Judith, Yoza, Flag – would be screaming the house down if emails and private communications had been hacked from those inhabiting the left. Theft is theft. Moral of the story, as taken from HoC – use F2F communication :)

    If I saw the left decrying theft, Id agree. As for standards Mr Silent T, really? Does your missus agree with that?

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  45. EAD (1,456 comments) says:

    The mods on Slaters blogs are little Hitler’s. It’s agree with them or else. You suggest the Emperor has no clothes and your post gets deleted. It is the standard of the left in that it is an echo chamber.

    At least kiwiblog gets some good debates going (unless it is Ugly vs. Shawn quoting obscure bible passages)

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  46. WineOh (636 comments) says:

    I think every MP in the country is sh!t scared about having their emails, phones & social media hacked. There seems to be a deliberate target on National MP’s (and in the case of Judith Collins’ husband, family of MPs). For the outraged activists on the right, there will be some juicy targets lined up on the left. The juiciest targets:
    * Cunliffe (to show what an asshole he is, and lack of leadership capabilities)
    * Robertson (to show the backstabbing conspiracy to destabilise the Labour leadership)
    * Shane Jones (obviously no longer current – but to show the dirt on Labour caucus)
    * Fenton (because she is such a feral, entertainment value alone would be priceless)
    * McCarten (not an MP, but will show what the party has become on the inside).

    Perhaps dime would like to ante up for a bounty to those in the hacking sphere.

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  47. johnwellingtonwells (137 comments) says:

    Rick Rowling @8.29 Go to http://www.onesimcard.com and http://www.aboutworldcallsim.biz – look up VOIP

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  48. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson I am almost with you regarding sacking Judith Collins for the simple reason that we expect higher standards from National MPs. If we were to apply the same standards to Labour MPs there would be non of them left.

    Show me the money.

    If you want to argue that the left do this, then you need to come up with some evidence rather than supposition and accusation. FFS the left blogs in NZ spend as much time vitriolically criticising Labour as they do National – they simply are too disorganised and ornery to act as Slater, Farrar, Ede, etc. have done.

    Farrar has been badly burned by this scandal. I had believed his description of himself and doubted what many on the left blogs said about him. Yet it seems to be true and supported by documented evidence. And there is going to be more.

    What isn’t true, however, is that Farrar takes the same vile attitudes as Slater, Lusk, Odgers, Ede, etc. That’s probably going to save him. He may be a “right wing fascist” but there’s no evidence that he holds the same vindictive and vile opinions as the others (there’s also no evidence that Key does, although plenty that Collins does).

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  49. Longknives (4,970 comments) says:

    Oh the howls of outrage from the precious ‘Rainbow Community’ (Led by an “outraged” Louisa Wall) over some stupid Radio Station’s lame rugby ticket giveaway! (Two Hetero Blokes are going to get married)
    But wait..
    Who the hell are the Gay Community to decide who can and who can’t get married? How dare they bring their narrow mindedness into our personal lives?
    If two blokes want free rugby tickets or free beer and get married to do so then that is their decision.
    The Gay Community needs to get off it’s high horse and accept that marriage is a beautiful thing that doesn’t have to be between Traditional ‘Gay’ Couples..
    Showing their Bigotry?

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  50. Ross12 (1,489 comments) says:

    Sean Plunket did a great job on the interview with Wayne Tempero ( KDC’s ex body guard ) yesterday. The W/O team have done a transcription.

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/transcribed-sean-plunket-wayne-tempero-interview-18-august-2014/#more-150961

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  51. kowtow (8,945 comments) says:

    No way the huge robber had his hands up when he was shot.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11041888/Lawyers-say-autopsy-shows-Michael-Brown-died-as-he-tried-to-surrender.html

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  52. publicwatchdog (3,162 comments) says:

    Absolutely agree.

    If you can’t trust your Minister of Police (now Minister of Justice) to follow ‘lawful due process’ – then who can you trust?

    In my considered opinion, Judith Collins is NOT ‘fit for duty’ as a Minister who is supposed to uphold the ‘highest ethical standards’, and if Prime Minister John Key doesn’t stand her down FORTHWITH – then neither is he ‘fit for duty’ as PM.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/vote-2014-news/collins-violated-judicial-responsibilities-cunliffe-6060039

    Collins ‘violated’ judicial responsibilities – Cunliff

    Published: 9:06AM Tuesday August 19, 2014 Source: ONE News

    Labour Leader David Cunliffe says Justice Minister Judith Collins has violated the judicial responsibilities she’s charged with upholding.

    It is alleged in Nicky Hager’s Dirty Politics book the minister leaked private information and collaborated with Whaleoil blogger Cameron Slater, something she has emphatically denied.

    It is alleged Ms Collins gave Mr Slater the identity of a public servant who had supposedly leaked information to the Labour Party.

    The public servant, Simon Pleasants, was subject to abuse on Mr Slater’s blog and also received death threats after Mr Slater identified him online.

    Mr Cunliffe said the “proper thing to do” if Ms Collins had concerns about a ministerial staffer would have been to take that to the minister responsible, the party’s chief executive, or if necessary to the State Services Commission. …
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

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  53. Padriv Ustoev (99 comments) says:

    Kowtow – listen to mainstream media more.

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  54. Lance (2,719 comments) says:

    @Tom Jackson
    Do you condone email theft, hacking, burglary, going through rubbish tins as the new standard of NZ politics?
    And if you do, how low do you think it should go before enough is enough. Or is there no bottom to the pit as far as you are concerned?

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  55. Padriv Ustoev (99 comments) says:

    Longknives – could not agree more. Marriage between two straight men makes much more sense then between two men who will hammer each other in the pukan and play with each other’s hrooms. That kind of behaviour is still punishable by death in the more civilized parts of the world Insha’Allah!

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  56. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    Do you condone email theft, hacking, burglary, going through rubbish tins as the new standard of NZ politics?

    When it’s in the public interest, as this is, it’s called whistle blowing.

    People on this blog need to decide where they stand. Do they stand with Slater and his ilk, or with the people in the National Party who won’t have anything to do with it?

    Note that Hager is quite clear that he got a lot of his information from National Party insiders who were unhappy at the influence of Slater, Lusk, et. al.

    Do you really think it is fine for the Prime Minister’s office to collude with a man who employs contacts in the sex industry to find material on the sex lives of politicians he doesn’t like? It’s Nixonian.

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  57. Lance (2,719 comments) says:

    So Tom Jackson thinks burglary is just fine if it’s in the public interest.

    So when did you loose all scruples?

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  58. mikenmild (12,460 comments) says:

    Burglary is not fine; but the disclosure of information, however obtained, could still be in the public interest. Do you see the distinction?

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  59. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    It’s Nixonian. Obamian.

    It’s time to enter the 21st century.

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  60. mikenmild (12,460 comments) says:

    Rovian, maybe.

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  61. lilman (975 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson you have seriously lost the plot.

    Do you think its in the public interest that all of the National Party think Cunliffe is a tool,that the labour party are full of union hacks,Gay campaigners and Teachers.

    If you think theft is ok to tell us what everyone knows,Tell me did you not know?

    As for kicking Cunliffe hell I know for a fact that the members of his Caucus hate the guy,I bet they have been deleting email and correspondence quicker Len Brown in the Ngati room.

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  62. publicwatchdog (3,162 comments) says:

    Here you go Kiwibloggers – those who are interested in fighting #teamcorruption?

    http://www.kiwisfirst.com/international-players/

    International Players

    By Vince Siemer / August 19, 2014

    cattermole and snively

    She is the darling of the bureaucrats in Wellington, graciously suckling on the public tit and swift to collect a bauble for each compliment given or wink of secrecy, and he is the recent mayoral candidate for Christchurch best known as a director of defunct companies and broken promises, recently living out of a vacant quake-damaged house he neither owns nor rents according companies records. They appear the perfect couple.

    Suzanne Snively and Victor Cattermole (both pictured) – or Thomas Victor Henry Ronald Cattermole by some accounts – have joined up this year to form Vault Compliance Systems Limited, a New Zealand Limited company whose 100% shareholder is a recently formed Cayman Island shell company.

    According to Mr Cattermole, VCS Ltd, formed in February with Ms Snively as Chairman of the Board, is already a global company with tens of millions in sales to multi-nationals in Australasia alone, with some companies paying $350,000 for their services. The phone number listed on the Vault website is to a company in Hong Kong identified as OFFSHORE INCORPORATIONS, 12th Floor, Ruttonjee House, 11 Duddell Street, Central, Hong Kong.

    At least one investor who paid $280,000 to Offshore Incorporations through her solicitor for Vault shares last year has received nothing. When asked about this investment, Mr Cattermole told kwf the investor in question forfeited the money because she failed to come up with an additional $220,000 as required by terms of the share offering.

    …….

    Ms Snively, whose other schemes recently included running a fraudulent company “Transparency New Zealand Limited” which offered consulting services to apply New Zealand’s “low corruption” techniques to “improve business profitability through lower cost of doing business in overseas countries, better access, lower cost of capital and for those listed companies, a higher yeilding (sic) share price.” is also chairperson of the New Zealand charitable chapter of the Berlin based non-profit Transparency International.

    The Berlin parent forced Ms Snively to stop trading on their name last December but refused to disclose their approach into her evident conflict of interest and profiteering, then claimed any disciplinary action lay with its local chapter. In a never released report, the New Zealand chapter found the charges against Ms Snively to be “false”, with a director expressing fear if Ms Snively was booted out, the local chapter would lose government funding which last year provided nearly 90% of the chapter’s budget.

    As Executive of Transparency International’s New Zealand chapter, Ms Snively implemented an on-line membership contract which requires potential members agree they will not seek to expose individual cases of corruption in New Zealand.

    In a ‘National Integrity Systems’ survey funded and partnered by the Office of the Auditor General last year, Transparency Intl New Zealand found the Office of the Auditor General was the most trusted and corruption free agency in New Zealand.
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Please be reminded that Auditor-General Lyn Provost failed to disclose that she was a shareholder in Sky City at a time I asked her to conduct an investigation into a matter relating to Sky City.

    Seriously – you couldn’t make this sh*t up!

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

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  63. 2clever4U (20 comments) says:

    Clear choice when you vote. Which do you want to swallow: Shylock or Hemlock?

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  64. Ross12 (1,489 comments) says:

    “Burglary is not fine; but the disclosure of information, however obtained, could still be in the public interest. Do you see the distinction?”

    You have to be joking. There are number of people who think it is in the public interest for us to know who Cunliffe’s donors were but you and Tom Jackson would never agree to that being disclosed.

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  65. Paulus (2,715 comments) says:

    I understand that many of Hager’s books have been given away free, and signed as souvenirs, in order to say how many have been “sold”.

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  66. graham (2,348 comments) says:

    publicwatchdog at 9:59 am –

    In my considered opinion, Judith Collins is NOT ‘fit for duty’ as a Minister who is supposed to uphold the ‘highest ethical standards’, and if Prime Minister John Key doesn’t stand her down FORTHWITH – then neither is he ‘fit for duty’ as PM.

    It is alleged in Nicky Hager’s Dirty Politics book the minister leaked private information and collaborated with Whaleoil blogger Cameron Slater, something she has emphatically denied.

    It is alleged Ms Collins gave Mr Slater the identity of a public servant who had supposedly leaked information to the Labour Party

    So … it hasn’t been PROVEN then?

    Do you not believe that Judith Collins should be given the chance to defend herself, Penny, in the same way that you were given the chance to defend yourself on each of the 22 times you were arrested and charged?

    Do you not believe in ‘One law for all’?

    Meant in a caring way, of course. :-)

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  67. mikenmild (12,460 comments) says:

    Ross12
    I would have no problem with any disclosure of political donations.

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  68. mikenmild (12,460 comments) says:

    graham
    Collins has admitted providing the name of the public servant.

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  69. UrbanNeocolonialist (316 comments) says:

    Seems Slater is in a bind here. IF he were to take a dump on his sources then he could probably turn the whole thing around quite quickly with all of the dirty rumours he must have accumulated on the left, – but then who would ever trust him again. Lucky for the left he does appear to have some ethics (or self interest).

    So if (as is suggested by Tempero, Slater et al) this hacking was driven by Dotcom via various mercenaries then those mercenaries are likely to still have the data. If a large enough bounty could be raised then it might be possible to coax the rest of the stolen emails (not just the left favouring ones) into the public domain from those same mercenaries.

    Even better if the police were to offer immunity and perhaps a reward to anyone who was involved in these thefts in return for full disclosure of who was involved, then surely it would be good for the nation to get this cleared up before the election, regardless of if a few individuals avoid prison for it (which they probably will anyway).

    The left would of course be fully behind this in the interests of clearing the air and taking heat off any innocents thus far implicated :)

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  70. graham (2,348 comments) says:

    mikenmild – has she? Whoops, goes to show how much I follow these stories :-(

    It doesn’t state that on the TVNZ story though, which was published at 09:06 this morning – everything is “alleged”. When did she admit that?

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  71. mikenmild (12,460 comments) says:

    Here you go graham:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/editorials/10396591/Editorial-Key-must-press-Collins-on-leak

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  72. graham (2,348 comments) says:

    Thanks mikenmild

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  73. ross411 (907 comments) says:

    wreck1080 (3,775 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 8:11 am
    Gotta say, Cameron Slater is a nasty piece of work.

    I still think he does a good job and is usually rather reasonable in his blogging.

    I disagree.

    I went to his blog and read it for a bit. I saw they had some more forceful moderation and had even lost some treasured community members because of it. But then I started read it, and whale’s posts were pretty poor. He would claim he had discovered something, post some announcement posts preceding the detail post, then you’d get some questionable but not really conclusive evidence amongst his claims of something it didn’t really support. And the community didn’t really question him on it, it was just a group of people who cheered him on, and shared his overeager conclusions.

    This seems to me quite similar to what you get with mjw, tom jackson and judith. Grandiose conclusions trotted out with no detail really supporting it. Or if there is detail, the conclusions are wishful thinking to some degree.

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  74. ross411 (907 comments) says:

    mikenmild (11,143 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 11:16 am
    Here you go graham:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/editorials/10396591/Editorial-Key-must-press-Collins-on-leak

    Uptick from me. I suggest you proactively post links like this, as being a left winger you’re surrounded by judiths, mjws and tom jacksons who make claims which can’t be linked to.

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  75. Tom Barker (150 comments) says:

    “I understand that many of Hager’s books have been given away free”

    I’ve seen this bullshit claim before, but never with even a shred of evidence to support it. Yesterday, my local bookshop told me they had a few hundred copies of “Dirty Politics” delivered that morning, but every copy had been pre-ordered, and prepaid, by the time they arrived, so “not one copy reached the shelves”. They were expecting another delivery today, but said those would also be presold by the time they arrived.

    Mr Hager clearly has no need whatever to give his book away for free. But supposing he did – are you saying he’s a wonderfully selfless individual who works entirely in the public interest rather than for commercial reward? If so, why don’t you start a fan club for him? You’ll get thousands of members.

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  76. Nukuleka (406 comments) says:

    Love the fact that the gay activists, Louisa Wall to the fore, having done their utmost to make marriage into a farce now have their knickers in a tangle because a radio station is calling their bluff!! The New Zealand parliament passed legislation that made a mockery of marriage, and if a jock radio station now wants to show just how much of a sham that new style of marriage is, then good on them!

    We reap what we sow, Louisa.

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  77. ShawnLH (6,708 comments) says:

    @ Tom Jackson

    “When it’s in the public interest, as this is, it’s called whistle blowing.”

    Bullshit. Burglary is a crime. Hacking is a crime. Stealing is a crime. Crimes are not “whistle blowing.”

    Your hypocrisy and double standards are showing. Clearly you don’t care at all about standards, or ethics. You only care about trying to shut down blogs on the Right, while excusing far worst behavior on the Left.

    Face it, far from being burned, or anything else, DPF looks like a saint compared to the filth who think their political ideology gives them the right to invade peoples homes, people who may have spouses and children, and steal from them.

    Such people are gutter scum, not whistle blowers. And so are you for excusing them.

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  78. mikenmild (12,460 comments) says:

    There’s a pretty well-established public-interest defence to criminal charges in such cases, Shawn.

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  79. ShawnLH (6,708 comments) says:

    This is going to blow up in Hager’s and Dotcons faces.

    KIM DOTCOM PAYMASTER FOR HACKER

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/breaking-kim-dotcom-paymaster-hacker/

    “Nicky Hager this morning admitted on Q+A that he didn’t have the full emails, that they were filtered as we suspected. Nicky Hager has become the latest victim of the puppet master.”

    So Hager does not even have the full emails he claims to have based his book on! It looks like they were drip fed to him in edited form by Dotcon!

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  80. minus (233 comments) says:

    The left wing keeps talking about Whaleoil Bomb … it isn’t a bomb, it is squadron of B-52s and the carpet bombing will commence when I am good and ready. Unlike Kim Dotcom, I don’t bluff.
    
– Cameron Slater
    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/06/dirty-money-dirty-politics/#more-139271

    May the present debacle only ensure more that this carpet bombing go ahead, as by the time he starts his action, Cameron should be able to say “Here is this stuff, included in the stolen emails but of course not released by the thief, but rather published by me to reinforce how selective the thief is in what they are drip-feeding through the Herald”

    Two goals in one, hopefully …

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  81. ShawnLH (6,708 comments) says:

    “There’s a pretty well-established public-interest defence to criminal charges in such cases, Shawn.”

    To committing burglary? Invading someones home? I would love to see that tested in court Mike.

    So, it’s easy, let the hackers and criminals who committed theft and burglary come forward publicly to defend their actions.

    I won’t hold my breath.

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  82. mikenmild (12,460 comments) says:

    Sorry Shawn, I should have been clearer: the public interest probably only comes in to protect Hager’s decision to publish the emails, not to protect who stole them. There could be protection for someone who stole them, but that would probably have to be justified by exposing some criminal conduct in the material – Slater’s emails maybe don’t cross that threshold.

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  83. publicwatchdog (3,162 comments) says:

    19 August 2014

    ‘Open Letter’ OIA request to Prime Minister John Key – please define ‘the highest ethical standards’ to which you are supposed to hold Ministers accountable.

    Dear Prime Minister,

    According to the New Zealand Cabinet Manual,

    http://cabinetmanual.cabinetoffice.govt.nz/2.50

    General
    2.50 To protect the integrity of the decision-making process of executive government and to maintain public trust in the Executive, Ministers and Parliamentary Under-Secretaries must conduct themselves in a manner appropriate to their office. Accordingly, the guidance in paragraphs 2.52 – 2.96:

    explains the standards of personal conduct expected of Ministers;
    assists Ministers to identify those personal interests that might be seen to influence their decision making;
    sets out options for managing conflicts of interest where necessary.
    2.51 The guidance on conduct, public duty, and personal interests applies to all Ministers (inside and outside Cabinet) and Parliamentary Under-Secretaries. References to Ministers in this guidance include Parliamentary Under-Secretaries.

    Conduct of Ministers
    2.52 A Minister of the Crown, while holding a ministerial warrant, acts in a number of different capacities:

    in a ministerial capacity, making decisions, and determining and promoting policy within particular portfolios;
    in a political capacity as a member of Parliament, representing a constituency or particular community of interest;
    in a personal capacity.
    2.53 In all these roles and at all times, Ministers are expected to act lawfully and to behave in a way that upholds, and is seen to uphold, the highest ethical standards. Ultimately, Ministers are accountable to the Prime Minister for their behaviour.

    _________________________________________________________

    1) Please provide the information which clearly defines what are ‘the highest ethical standards’ to which you hold Ministers accountable.

    2) Please provide the information which confirms that the providing of the name Simon Pleasants Manager, Ministerial Property, in an email dated 6 October 2009 by (then) Minister of Police Judith Collins to her ‘friend’ Cameron Slater, for publication on his ‘WhaleOil’ blog, constitutes, in your opinion, as Prime Minister of New Zealand, behaviour of the ‘highest ethical standards’ to which you hold Ministers accountable.

    EVIDENCE: http://postimg.org/image/lzxasw6y7/ )
    _________________________________________________________

    Please note that this information was provided in ‘Dirty Politics’, written by Nicky Hager, pgs 39 – 40:

    “It began on 7 October 2009, when Slater published a Whale Oil blog post entitled ‘A curious set of circumstances’.

    Slater said the ‘curious little story’ began with Labour MPs sending official information requests and asking questions in Parliament about English’s accommodation allowance.

    ‘Making up requests is an art form in itself,’ he wrote, ‘and if you are able to know exactly where to go asking those questions then it becomes a whole lot easier.’

    He then named a man, Simon Pleasants, who worked for for Ministerial Services managing ministerial housing and who, the Internet showed showed, had worked for Helen Clark’s Labour government.

    ‘Now I find this set of circumstances very curious to say the lease,’ Slater wrote.

    ‘What we have here is a hard core Labour flunky, a tribal member working in an area where information has seemingly been flowing to opposition members where very specific questions have been asked that really couldn’t have been asked unless someone was in the know.’ 24

    There were serious allegations against an employess based on nothing but guilt by association. But Slater did not stop there.

    Two weeks later, on the Whale Oil blog, he was calling Pleasants a ‘Labour Party snitch’ and the ‘prime suspect’ in feeding information to the Labour MPs. 25

    A week after that, unsupported by any evidence the [Labour MPs] Pete Hodgson and Trevor “putin” Mallard used was kindly provided by their flunkie and snitch, Simon Pleasants.’26

    Where had all this come from?

    The allegation was leaked by Collins.

    On 6 October 2009, the day before his first post, Slater had received an e-mail from Judith Collins’s private e-mail address. It was clear that they had already been discussing the subject and she was now putting the crucial details in writing.

    The e-mail contained just five words: ‘Simon Pleasants, Manager, Ministerial Property.’ 27

    It seems very much as though a senior Cabinet Minister was collaborating in publicly accusing a ministerial staff member of wrongdoing.

    Slater’s attack on Pleasants unleashed the usual outpouring of abusive blog comments.

    Allan: ‘The prick should be sacked immediately.’

    Mikenz: ‘we must sack the fuck!’

    Roger: ‘Somebody fire the c**t – Can we get the prat harpooned? And shamed …and tarred’n feathered.’

    The right-wing blogger Keeping Stock (Tony Stuart) wrote: ‘Superb work Cam! … I wonder if Mr Pleasants will get a less-than-pleasant invitation to have a wee chat with his boss sometime this morning…’28

    Nick Bryant, press secretary to Minister of Economic Development and Energy Resources Gerry Brownlee, joined in the comments disguised as Manu and Former Hack (he had previously worked for the National Business Review).

    ‘Well done,’ he wrote. ‘You might well have one for the harpoon gallery here.’

    He had searched out further information on the Internet showing Pleasant’s previous work for the Labour government, which he copied into the comments, and asked,
    ‘Any progress on this today Whale? … Any interest from the MSM [mainstream media]?’ 29

    In fact no media used the story. Slater and Collins had smeared the name of a government employee without evidence or the employee being able to reply.

    One commenter was less sure: ‘your evidence of wrongdoing is?’

    A West Auckland commentator named TonyC (Tony Cooke) replied:
    ‘His wrongdoing is being a pinko communist fuck, nuf said.’ 30

    As it turned out, there had been no good grounds for targeting Pleasants, who retained his job until he later chose to move to another department.

    Being picked out for casual accusations and vigilante justice is of course a shocking experience for the people concerned.

    A few hours Slater published the first Pleasants post a commenter who said
    ‘If this Simon Pleasants is guilty…,’ he wrote, ‘he is clearly guilty, he should be fired, he should be bankrupted, his family thrown in the gutter, he should be fired, he should [be imprisoned] for the last 6 years, then he should be banned form any civil service posision…’

    Then he said, ‘Ah fuck it. Shoot him, and shoot his wife and kids if they can’t be bothered to pay for the bullet,’ 31

    The police investigated the ‘Shoot him’ comment under the offence of intimidation. In early November a police officer turned up on Slater’s door-step with an ultimatum.

    He could either remove the comment – and another that proposed ‘cut[ting] the bastard’s throat’ – from his blog, as they risked legitimising violence, or go to the police station.

    Slater removed the comments.

    _________________________________________________________

    Yours sincerely,

    Penny Bright

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  84. ross411 (907 comments) says:

    publicwatchdog (2,185 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 1:44 pm
    19 August 2014

    ‘Open Letter’ OIA request to Prime Minister John Key – please define ‘the highest ethical standards’ to which you are supposed to hold Ministers accountable.

    Penny, no-one will read this. I suggest you google “wall of text” and read up on the phenomenon where people write unreadable stuff.

    By the way, good on you for not paying your rates. You’re going to lose your house though. I suggest you concentrate on that.

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  85. ross411 (907 comments) says:

    Today, I received a conservative pamphlet in the mail. It had a “voter quiz” in it. I read the second and third yes/no questions and scratched my head.

    Government should balance books rather than borrowing up big and selling assets to fund that borrowing.

    Is the reason assets are sold to fund borrowing? Or to get more money and not to have to borrow as much?

    Referendum with 67% or more of the vote in support of the proposal should be binding on the government.

    What? This makes no sense. 67% of the vote in a referendum does not give a majority of the NZ voting eligible population, it just gives a slanted chance of winning to the self-interested faction who put forward the referendum, and are more likely to not ignore it.

    I can’t get behind this nonsense. Even if I agree with some other conservative policies, it’s these hard to understand and wrong sounding ones which rule me out.

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  86. publicwatchdog (3,162 comments) says:

    Oh come on ross411

    Folks can do anything if they concentrate, focus and put their minds to it. (Even boys! ;)

    It’s all good.

    The ones I want to take this ‘on board’ will be so doing …….

    I’m asking a VERY serious question – how are Ministers of the Crown to be held accountable to the ‘highest ethical standards’ – if not by the Prime Minister?

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

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  87. ross411 (907 comments) says:

    publicwatchdog (2,187 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 2:14 pm
    I’m asking a VERY serious question – how are Ministers of the Crown to be held accountable to the ‘highest ethical standards’ – if not by the Prime Minister?

    You should get someone else to do it, as I believe you are yourself compromised ethically, based on your comments here.

    Two things to concentrate on Penny, not losing your house, and finding someone not as ethically compromised as yourself who is in a position to do something about this.

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  88. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    tom hunter (4,522 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 10:43 am
    s
    Your not making some more of your bizarre allusions to a watergate styled cover up by chance.?

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  89. publicwatchdog (3,162 comments) says:

    Don’t be so silly ross411 – I have EVERY right as a citizen to make an OIA request.

    Upon which part of the Electoral Act are you relying to effectively try and ‘clip’ my political wings as a candidate?

    (Not that any of us are yet official candidates – the Electoral Commission isn’t accepting any nominations until 21 August 2014 ).

    See ross411 – ‘If you don’t know your rights – you don’t have any’!

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    PS I’m not the one who is ‘ethically compromised’.

    Try Judith Collins? John Key? Just for starters …..

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  90. Longknives (4,970 comments) says:

    Nukuleka- The most amusing part is that the two blokes getting married for rugby tickets will likely stay together for the entire rugby tournament, which means they will have lasted longer than most of the publicity stunt/sham ‘marriages’ we saw from our shrieking ‘Rainbow Community’ last year..

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  91. Lance (2,719 comments) says:

    @penny

    When you ‘cut n paste’ or even write long screeds of drivel….. nobody reads it.

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  92. kowtow (8,945 comments) says:

    Watch this documentary on the Islamic State and tell me why the wests is trying to oust Assad instead of giving him all the help we can to kill these fuckers.

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  93. stigie (1,458 comments) says:

    “When you ‘cut n paste’ or even write long screeds of drivel….. nobody reads it.”

    Correct, when people skim over all that crap, they are generally people with no hatred of others !~

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  94. publicwatchdog (3,162 comments) says:

    Oh dear – ‘Team Key’ is starting to ‘unravel’?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311070

    Cameron Slater: Ex-PM staffer is ‘gutless’

    Breaking 3:15 PM Tuesday Aug 19, 2014

    Whaleoil blogger Cameron Slater has described his man in the Beehive as “squeamish” and “gutless” for not fronting up to the media and talking about their relationship.

    Slater said the Prime Minister’s former press secretary Jason Ede should respond to accusations leveled against him in Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics.

    Mr Ede’s role in John Key’s office has come under scrutiny following the publication of the book which was written using years of Slater’s communications obtained by a hacker.

    He is accused of joining Slater in accessing the Labour Party website when security was vulnerable and obtaining private information. He is also accused of feeding information to Slater’s Whaleoil blog to attack political opponents.

    Mr Ede – who now works as a National Party staff member – has gone to ground since publication of the book while Mr Key has attempted to explain his actions as normal political practice.

    Slater said his contact with Mr Ede was normal politics, including the receipt of press releases.

    “You are all claiming there is this vast conspiracy – it simply doesn’t exist. That Jason Ede is some sort of ringmaster? In my view, Jason Ede is squeamish, and gutless.

    “And the fact he has gone to ground and hiding and not speaking to anybody suggests that’s true.

    “My advice is front-foot everything. My advice is speak and tell your story. If you don’t tell your story, everyone else is telling your story with their narrative.”

    Slater said his style of politics differed from many others. “I play politics like Fijians play rugby. My role is smashing your face into the ground.

    “Politics is a nasty despicable game and its played by nasty despicable people. Where’s the surprise in this?

    “There’s a lot of people want to be involved in politics but there are not very many people who want to say and do things. The vast majority of people are squeamish.

    “The squeamish people are gutless, they run for the hills, they don’t speak to the media. And you have to question that – look at all the people who are running and hiding and not talking where I’m the one speaking to the media. If it all comes down to me I’m prepared to front.”

    …..
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    And – I say BOLLOCKS to your statement Cameron Slater:

    “Politics is a nasty despicable game and its played by nasty despicable people.”

    Unlike yourself – that’s NOT how I operate politically.

    I don’t do ‘dirty’ politics of a personal nature.

    In my view, it is possible to front, fight hard -but fight clean.

    However – this depends on your character and personal ‘code’ / ‘moral compass’.

    Here are some guidelines I try to follow:

    TELL THE TRUTH

    TAKE NO SH*T!

    PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH

    LEAD BY EXAMPLE

    BE TRUE TO YOURSELF

    For the public record Cameron, I’d like to give you credit for helping me when I’d left the lights on in the van I had borrowed for an election meeting, three years ago, and flattened the battery.

    I was stuck, and you did help. Thanks for that.

    Fair’s fair.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

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  95. mikenmild (12,460 comments) says:

    John Key now standing by Judith Collins:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10399104/Key-Collins-subject-of-smear-campaign
    Says that he takes her word that she didn’t leak the name of the public servant…

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  96. publicwatchdog (3,162 comments) says:

    Give me a break – how weak, gutless and squeamish is Prime Minister John Key?

    Why does Prime Minister John Key not SEEK TRUTH FROM FACTS and double-check the dribble Minister of Justice Judith Collins is feeding him, rather than trust the ‘word’ of the (proven) untrustworthy, and continue to defend the indefensible?

    If Prime Minister John Key still apparently has confidence in HIS Minister of ‘Justice’ Judith Collins – then how on earth can the voting public have confidence in HIM?

    I guess that’s the best the public can expect from a Prime Minister who has his ‘moral compass’ stuck on Wall Street?
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311222

    Nikki Preston Nikki Preston is a Herald reporter based in Hamilton.

    Judith Collins on her last chance – Key

    2:50 PM Tuesday Aug 19, 2014

    Election 2014 NZ Government NZ National Party… Politics Whaledump
    Justice Minister Judith Collins.

    Judith Collins’ decision to leak information to blogger Cameron Slater was “unwise” and she is now on her last chance, Prime Minister John Key says.

    Speaking before the anniversary celebrations of the Maori King’s coronation outside Turangawaewae in Ngaruawahia, Mr Key said he could only take Ms Collins’ word that she only leaked private information such as public servant Simon Pleasants’ numbers and not his name.

    “I think there are some details there which I think it is unwise of a minister to pass on,” but he said it did not change the basic point that she was very strongly of the view that she did not leak the name, just the numbers.

    Other than the unwise move of sharing private information, Mr Key generally trusted Ms Collins’ judgement.

    It is now the second time Ms Collins has been put on notice that she was on a final chance after failing to mention a dinner she had with the heads of Oravida during a trip to China.

    Mr Key said that was still in place and denied she was now on her “last last” chance. …..

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________

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  97. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    On Radio Live they have said Key told Collins she is on her last last last warning, this means keys plebes have not located the Key/Collins sex tapes….. try harder shonkey

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  98. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    Lance (2,522 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 3:23 pm
    @penny

    When you ‘cut n paste’ or even write long screeds of drivel….. nobody reads it
    BULLSHIT at least she does something unlike you lance whos big thing is you playing with yourself lance btave post

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  99. stigie (1,458 comments) says:

    Where is Nasska when you need him with links to the cuckoo family ?

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  100. publicwatchdog (3,162 comments) says:

    http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/john-key-walks-off-over-judith-collins-questions-video-6060273

    NZ Prime Minister John Key scurries off to avoid answering questions about the Minister of Corruption (sorry! ‘Justice’) Judith Collins…

    Keep going Prime Minister.

    Keep trusting the untrustworthy and defending the indefensible – it’s a REALLY good look.

    NOT.

    But – I understand how hard it must be to enforce the highest ethical standards, without a ‘moral compass’ to guide you?

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

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  101. Viking2 (11,686 comments) says:

    NZ first Fucked.

    Ron Mark back with NZ First
    AIMEE GULLIVER
    Last updated 15:23 19/08/2014

    Ron Mark
    BACK IN THE FOLD: Ron Mark is returning to New Zealand First.

    New Zealand First MP Andrew Williams is set to be dumped to a seemingly unelectable position on the party list, with former MP Ron Mark set to rejoin the party.

    Stuff understands a draft copy of the NZ First list, determined by the party’s selection committee on the weekend, has Williams ranked at 13, and Mark ranked at 9.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10399377/Ron-Mark-back-with-NZ-First

    Why would anyone vote for this bunch of misfits.

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  102. Viking2 (11,686 comments) says:

    wouldn’t it be nice if all the “haters and Wreckers” of the left just went off to the Stranded and peddled their vile opinions.
    We, the intelligent don’t need this crap plastered all over KB. Its was great before you came so be good people (difficult I am aware), and just bugger off.

    Oh you can’t because the Stranded has banned you all.

    Well who would be surprised?

    Perhaps lefty moderation wouldn’t be such a bad thing.
    It amazes me how you scum think you need to tell us how to think.

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  103. Nostradamus (2,439 comments) says:

    Stigie:

    Where is Nasska when you need him with links to the cuckoo family ?

    There’s a vacancy for the role of cuckoo monitor. The position needs to be filled urgently.

    David Attenborough was, regrettably, unavailable at short notice.

    Perhaps you could step up to the plate? The Kiwiblog community is relying on you!

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  104. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    You poor buggers from the right,Farrars children seem to be shocked that you have been exposed as rubbish ,enough said Cameron Slater is a pasty fat fuckwit shithead,SUMS UP THE RIGHT WINGERS,ENOUGH SAID

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  105. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    the public interest probably only comes in to protect Hager’s decision to publish the emails, not to protect who stole them.

    The emails were copied, not stolen.

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  106. mikenmild (12,460 comments) says:

    Stay classy, lurcher.

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  107. ciaron (1,450 comments) says:

    The emails were copied, not stolen.

    Was permission obtained for this UT?

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  108. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Many insightful posts today
    telling us on the right how bad we are
    PBWV and lurcher
    Are such bastions of morel fortitude and decorum..Persons of the left displaying such behavior are truly showing the way by example.

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  109. 2clever4U (20 comments) says:

    Ugly Ruth. The information was stolen. It was the property of someone taken without permission or payment: stealing. It’s like an idea, that’s not a unique physical entity either but it can be stolen. Try to get your brain to function as a whole; it seems divided into fragments.

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  110. stigie (1,458 comments) says:

    “Perhaps you could step up to the plate? The Kiwiblog community is relying on you!”

    Nasska has never resigned from that position Nostra that i am lead to believe.
    The man from Eke has produced the goods always[apart from today] when needed, to take any sadness away !~

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  111. nasska (12,111 comments) says:

    Pressure of work stigie. Even in my dotage I have to earn enough to help pay the dole for the Labour/Green/Mana bludgers so they can sit in bed in their onesies criticising the capitalists. :)

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  112. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    COLLINS IS GONE and your islander/chinese husband will get rid of you, YAAAAAAAAAHOOOOOOOO

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  113. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    Thanks workers,lurcher1948 is retired But has a part time job(im good at what i do) so i get paid,twice next week paid and get the pension, so you suckers calling me a dolebludgers,WORK HARD,I LOVE IT you pay every 2nd week

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  114. ross411 (907 comments) says:

    lurcher1948 (97 comments) says:
    August 19th, 2014 at 6:06 pm
    COLLINS IS GONE and your islander/chinese husband will get rid of you, YAAAAAAAAAHOOOOOOOO

    I think you have a blockage. If you clear it, then you’ll be able to communicate in a fashion which can be understood, like the rest of us. The frustration will melt away, and it’ll be like you’re sitting on a beach on a summer’s day. The sun shining, warn and relaxing above you, and the blue cloudless sky stretching into the horizon.

    You’ll no longer have to worry about higher power prices because of a Kiwipower company, invented as a baseless solution to an unexamined problem. You’ll no longer have to worry about having to earn more money and pay more tax, to pay for people to not work. You’ll no longer have to worry about not having much of a say in the party of your choice, because it the unions have more of a say than you. And so on.

    You know that National makes sense. And John Key is that likeable. It’s okay to like someone. It’s okay to not have to pay a stipend to bullies which is what unions often are, and to read a website like The Standard (as Whaleoil is) filled with negativity and bile. You don’t have to hate so much, that your posts are incomprehensible.

    Relax. Come to the light. Away from the darkness and madness you’ve lived in for so long with Labour, and it’s liars. See how good it feels not to be repeating their lies.

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  115. nasska (12,111 comments) says:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8do9pa4vnbcvxyl/Atheism%203.jpg

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  116. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    The information was stolen.

    No, it wasn’t. Stealing involves depriving someone of possession of something.

    It was the property of someone taken without permission or payment: stealing.

    Just like taking someone’s photograph without their permission.

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  117. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    “The emails were copied, not stolen.”

    Was permission obtained for this UT?

    No, they were copied without permission, just like your browser copies pages from DPF’s server without permission.

    Everything is permitted, which is not forbidden by law.
    http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/bouvier/maxims.shtml

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  118. ciaron (1,450 comments) says:

    No, they were copied without permission, just like your browser copies pages from DPF’s server without permission.

    That’s plainly a false equivalence. One is a communication between the sender and recipient, the other is a communication between the blog writer and whoever stumbles across the blog and cares enough to read it.

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  119. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth ,some rather oddball jurisprudence woo there . ?

    Thus I compose a song or create an app and exercise my rightful proprietary rights over it but you can pirate it for free.?

    Interesting. !

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  120. ciaron (1,450 comments) says:

    On a lighter note; anyone remember Fergal Sharkey?

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  121. EAD (1,456 comments) says:

    Here’s one for ya Stephie

    John Stossel calls on all Conservatives, Libertarians and Liberals to unite against the Police State that is now the USA.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/23/conservatives-libertarians-and-liberals-should-all-worry-about-militarization/

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  122. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    That’s plainly a false equivalence.

    No it isn’t. If it was a false equivalence then there would be some reason for a distinction between the two cases.

    One is a communication between the sender and recipient, the other is a communication between the blog writer and whoever stumbles across the blog and cares enough to read it.

    Copying is a pretty general concept that isn’t limited to senders, recipients, blog writers, or blog readers.

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  123. nasska (12,111 comments) says:

    The teacher brings a statue of Venus into class and asks,
    ‘What do you like best about it, class?’
    ‘Let’s start with you, Robert.’
    ‘The artwork,’ says Robert.
    ‘Very good. And you, Peter?’
    ‘Her tits!’ says Peter.
    ‘Peter, get out! Go stand in the hall,’ responds the teacher with disgust. ‘And you, Johnny?’
    ‘I’m leaving, teacher, I’m leaving…’.

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  124. ciaron (1,450 comments) says:

    No it isn’t. If it was a false equivalence then there would be some reason for a distinction between the two cases.

    You mean like how one is intended to be read by the recipient and the other is intended to be read by anyone?

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  125. stephieboy (3,535 comments) says:

    EAD, yes militarization of the law enforcement agencies is of concern but its nothing new. In the Watts riots of 1965 tanks and combat troops were used to quell those riots,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Riots

    and the Symbioses Liberation Army,

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/guerrilla/peopleevents/e_kidnapping.html

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  126. Steve (North Shore) (4,538 comments) says:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/n67ykcrlua8hbz9/Protons%20have%20Mass.jpg

    Old?

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  127. EAD (1,456 comments) says:

    Stephie,

    it’s a long way away from the Sir Roberts Peels principles on what constitutes an ethical police though isn’t it?
    force http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles

    These principles include:
    – The purpose of the police should be to prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force
    – Every police officer should be issued an identification number, to assure accountability for his actions.
    – Whether the police are effective is not measured on the number of arrests, but on the lack of crime.
    – Above all else, an effective authority figure knows trust and accountability are paramount. Hence, Peel’s most often quoted principle that “The police are the public and the public are the police.”

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  128. Nostradamus (2,439 comments) says:

    Ciaron:

    Your discussion with UglyTruth reminds me of a recent exchange between ADC and UglyTruth.

    adc’s question:

    adc (581 comments) says:
    August 15th, 2014 at 10:48 am

    Ugly Truth

    If you were an author, and were just about to submit your manuscript to publishers, and found someone had copied it and published it first in their name, would you consider that theft?

    you were not deprived of your manuscript.

    You were deprived of the right to determine what happens to your work though. And many other rights.

    If you were a film studio, or record company, and you were deprived of your rights to make a return on your investment because someone was selling copies of your work, that is theft.

    UglyTruth’s response:

    UglyTruth (4,532 comments) says:
    August 15th, 2014 at 11:00 am

    If you were an author, and were just about to submit your manuscript to publishers, and found someone had copied it and published it first, would you consider that theft?

    No.

    you were not deprived of you manuscript.

    You were deprived of the right to determine what happens to your work though. And many other rights.

    So what? As soon as the original publishers perfected the contract the rights that I lost by the other party pre-empting me would have been lost anyway.

    If you were a film studio, or record company, and you were deprived of you rights to make a return on your investment because someone was selling copies of your work, that is theft.

    No, those companies have no right to make a return on an investment. The get to suffer the rewards of bad planning like anyone else.

    Now that last part – film companies have no right to make a return on their investment – probably sums up the essential difference between your position and UglyTruth’s position. If your respective positions are that far apart, as I suspect they are, then I can’t see much scope for either of you to agree with the other.

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  129. Nookin (3,577 comments) says:

    “Thus I compose a song or create an app and exercise my rightful proprietary rights over it but you can pirate it for free.?”

    Of course not Stephieboy. Very strict criteria must be satisfied before copying is ok:

    1. The app must be effective and make the copier a lot of money.
    2. The song must be a good one and make the copier a lot of money
    3. The copying will help shaft the person from whom it was taken or someone else whom the copier dislikes — such as a political party.
    4. The copier must reside in the pink to scarlet colours of the political spectrum.
    5. Exceptions may be made for visitors who would ordinarily be “bluish” if, by copying, they stick it to rich people who aren’t really very nice –supposedly.

    Without any of these criteria present, copying is naughty.

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  130. ciaron (1,450 comments) says:

    @Nostradamus,
    I see. I guess I engage because Ugly Truth presents viewpoints that seem to me (at face value, no legal training, no legal experience – and I hope to keep it that way!) to often be diametrically opposed to what I think is common sense, or how I think the law should be applied.

    Did I miss the day when one of the resident lawyers schooled UT, or am I simply wrong?

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  131. Nukuleka (406 comments) says:

    Scrolling through this at the end of the day and boy oh boy what an eye-opener to see the number of lost souls who have strayed over from The Standard to vent their awfulness upon us poor unsuspecting KBers. lurcher1948 seems to epitomise the vile nastiness that lprent and Karol insist is only to be found on the right of the spectrum.

    And how come Penny B has so much time on her hands to be inflicting her ramblings upon the us all? Get out to Helensville, Penny, and start doing some door-knocking. Let the good folk of the electorate have the opportunity to see just what stiff competition John Key is facing.

    Might be a good idea to take that latest rates demand with you to show them just what an unprincipled bludger you are!

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  132. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Ugly has had a go at all the known lawyers on kb
    He always insist they are wrong so most now probably write him off as a certifiable insane moonbat with a case of fried brain from standing to close to a leaking microwave wearing his tin foil hat.

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  133. Nookin (3,577 comments) says:

    Ciaron

    FE Smith had a go for a while but got calluses on his forehead from banging against the brick wall. Unfortunately, UT’s theories of jurisprudence predate photocopying machines and his understanding of dishonest removal of someone else’s property is limited to the tangible.

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  134. Rowan (2,611 comments) says:

    Definitely time for Key to get rid of the tax lawyer after this latest episode with whale and her denials of what she sent him.

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  135. Nookin (3,577 comments) says:

    Come up for air have you Rowan? Whats the score over there?

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  136. Scott Chris (6,178 comments) says:

    Any Beatles fans out there wanna see a chick do it hard here’s Annie Clarke I LOVE HER:

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  137. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Rowan. Getting rid of Judith Collins won’t help. No cabinet is going to compensate anyone for killing his family. Not now, not ever. Eventually the loonies in the Herald and television will give up campaigning for a lost cause. You of course will carry on.

    By the way, how’s Mr Karam doing? Is he felling better now?

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  138. Mark (1,502 comments) says:

    Of more concern for Key about Collins is if or when more damaging material is released that implicates Collins. Already on a 2nd last chance she is now a political liability.

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