General Debate 29 August 2014

August 29th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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170 Responses to “General Debate 29 August 2014”

  1. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    A man is dreaming. He is living in a country where drivers persistently run red lights and the crash rate is high, despite few cars. He has 10 daughters and as they grow up he teaches them to drive. He is pedantic and a stickler for the law. When the lights turn green GO!.

    The girls are always quick off the mark and it’s not long before the first is killed. He feels powerless. One by one they’re all killed. He is mystified. He had taught them the law, hadn’t he?

    He wakes up. My good gracious me, he says to himself solemnly, my girls died fighting wrongdoing. I must be off to KiwiBlog; I’ve uncovered a red-light running culture, by George I have.

    Oh, for Pete’s sake:

    Rape culture:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html
    Embracing alien cultures and losing social coherence.

    Bad manners:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11060708/Sexual-groping-How-should-a-woman-react-when-a-man-gropes-her.html

    “I will be pilloried for saying so, but … ”
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11056243/Rape-conviction-statistics-wont-improve-until-women-stop-getting-drunk-says-retired-female-judge.html
    Women can do what they like, of course, and the law can punish transgressors, but there is a cost.

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  2. Souvlaki (45 comments) says:

    Genuine question: Is Winston confabulating and is this part of Kosakoffs Syndrome? Discuss!

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  3. Odakyu-sen (676 comments) says:

    How did they know to look for that guy working for the Ministry of Social Development who made those comments on the Whale Oil blog? Investigators linked the messages to a server in the Ministry, and traced them back to his computer.
    (Ref: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11315798 )

    This raises a few questions about the way they found this guy. Who found him? Firstly, was it a routine sweep or a tip-off? With Whale Oil hitting the headlines lately, did the investigators check the origins of all of his frequent posters (and happened to find one from the Ministry)? Maybe they were searching for leaks and this guy came up as a suspect. Kind of reminds me of that fellow who got caught up in the wake of that investigation into alleged passport fraud by foreign agents. He probably would never have been found out otherwise.

    I would be a little more concerned if this patronizing ministry employee was caught in routine checks. This would suggest that one cannot air one’s personal views in public. Next, what happens when they start sweeping through postings from personal computers and smartphones?

    Apparently this worker signed a Ministry contract pledging “political neutrality in his professional role.” But commenting on a blog is not his professional role. (To be true, if this guy says beneficiaries are stupid for having children, it is a rather bad look for someone working at the Ministry of Social Development. A bit like someone working in the Ministry of Vegan Affairs commenting on a foodie blog about how much they like a rare eye-fillet steak.)

    Do we really act on our thoughts and ideas we post on blogs? If so, then maybe the Thought Police have got their man.

    What do you think?

    (Or, more to the point, are your thoughts work-safe?)

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  4. dishy (248 comments) says:

    So the Dominion Post’s political team reckons that the biggest hit from the debate was that Cunliffe “nailed Key on tax cuts” (presumably because Key wouldn’t answer “yes” or “no” to the question of whether he would implement any). Really? Cunliffe can’t even confirm to us what, under his watch, would be the top tax rate, because he hasn’t worked that out with Norman yet. At least Key’s in charge.

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  5. prosper (168 comments) says:

    A most unsatisfactory debate. There is no point in discussing Labour’s policy as it will be compromised by greens etc. All three participants were mediocre. Key needs to be a bit quicker and firmer and point out that it is a waste of time discussing Labour policy. I want Cunnliffe to fail. Similar to the all blacks beating Australia. Hopefully in the second debate.

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  6. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    Rotherham Pakistani Muslim abuse of white girls scandal. The end of “multiclturalism”? Hopefully.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html

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  7. hj (7,033 comments) says:

    whether Winston has been set up (think Hooker Lodge) or is making mischief it doesn’t look good.
    I have firm evidence that elements in National (National’s sell NZ to China Wing) would like to knock out NZ First.

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  8. hj (7,033 comments) says:

    ‘Cameron is not serious about real change to the EU': Tory MP defects to UKIP with stinging attack on Prime Minister – as Farage warns more may follow

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2736598/Tory-MP-Douglas-Carswell-defects-UKIP-resigns-Parliament-spark-crunch-Essex-byelection.html#ixzz3BigFlhdz
    …..

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  9. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    WOW, the Internet Party advertising on Kiwiblog – are we going to have a thread about that?

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  10. oldpark (338 comments) says:

    There he was Cunliffe living up to his name as silent “T”.Cunliffe spent the previous twenty four hours studying the dirty tricks brigade manual as written by the cloth capped union infested Labour/Green Party’s.Cunliffe showed his Pam Cockery pedigree with his playing the man waving his arms around like a dirty Harre fish wife, with shin kicking to boot.Typical back street Labour/Green Party tactics.He turned the whole leaders debate into a shambles ,in fact hijacking it .Cunliffe was, as even his own Caucus know a big brash bombastic bully.Thats where the code word comes, from his fear and trembling caucus”.Anyone But Cunliffe” There he was John Key our PM and a man for all reasons and seasons.John was cool ,calm and collective with courage under fire.He was the only real leader there last night he ran rings around,the other so called leader CUNLIFFE,who was no more than a KNEECAPPING BULLY BOY.Rating the overall performance last night out of TEN,being tops.JOHN KEY EIGHT.DAVID CUNLIFFE TWO.only because I have never seen a ONE.

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  11. FeralScrote (220 comments) says:

    From memory John key had a bad start in the televised debates last election.
    With the help of a few shenanigans from TVNZ last night, Cunliffe probably had his best performance to date albeit preaching to the choir,I was waiting for a “show me the money”moment ,but I think Key will be keeping his powder dry til the final debate.
    Hopefully there will be a good quote from the Wolf of Wall Street, just to do Penny and Grahams heads in.

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  12. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Man from ministry investigated over blog

    A public servant is under investigation over allegations that he said beneficiaries were “stupid” for having children.
    The man, who works for the Ministry of Social Development, has been suspended amid questions about comments he posted on the Whale Oil blog.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11315798

    According to David Fisher* it is not alright for Judith Collins, giving a public servants’ contact details that are freely available to a blogger.
    According to David Fisher it is alright to hack emails and then attack a public servant who has posted things that David Fisher doesn’t like anonymously on a blog.

    *David Fisher is a senior moron for the NZ Hamas.

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  13. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    The debate.

    Key subtly let us know he spent the day talking to New Zealandes’about their concerns.

    Cunliffe by contrast we all knew had to spend the whole day working on trying to pretend he knows about our concerns.

    I don’t support either man but Key is streets ahead in terms of natural ability and affability.

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  14. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Odakyu-sen (502 comments) says:
    August 29th, 2014 at 8:03 am

    Anyone who is in the employ of the state is bound by the same code of conduct.

    http://www.ssc.govt.nz/upload/downloadable_files/Code-of-conduct-StateServices.pdf

    If a person does not wish to adhere to that code, then they simply should not sign their employment contract. Posting on a blog that is strongly political during work hours contravenes the code of conduct. Whilst the person may try to argue that they were incognito and therefore not bringing the State into question, there is the fact that the use of computers is limited.

    Every public servant knows that using the ‘firms’ computer for personal use is not allowed in most circumstances. There is some discretion in this, but generally it is a big no-no and posting on a blog is a certain no-no.

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  15. hj (7,033 comments) says:

    how many posters on the Standard or Frogblog work for Ministry of Social Development?

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  16. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    whaleoil leak.

    Why do we have a ministry of social development? It doesn’t do or achieve anything other than soak up and waste taxes.

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  17. flipper (4,083 comments) says:

    Sometimes people are so committed to a cause – whatever cause – that they cease to think rationally on any matter.

    Issues are best handled when they are compartmentalised. When personal animus enters, it allows, or even encourages, issue creep. At that point credibility may be lost on all arguments.

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  18. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    This is utterly appalling ,one Ameriacn reporter gets killed and the Lame Sttream Media can hyperventilate about it for 3 days,200 soldiers are stripped bound and marched away to be slaughtered and the response is ho hum.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2736764/Marched-deaths-Sickening-ISIS-slaughter-continues-250-soldiers-captured-Syrian-airbase-stripped-led-desert-mass-execution.html

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  19. holysheet (397 comments) says:

    Posted yesterday

    WineOh (591 comments) says:
    August 28th, 2014 at 8:30 am

    @ DPF – all these new ads popping up on Kiwiblog are very annoying, especially on tablet devises where it is easy to accidentally bump one when scrolling. Please reconsider!

    The way around this is to change your browser to firefox. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/desktop/customize/
    Download the firefox browser and use the above link to add Addblock plus to your list of add-ons.

    I have add free pages with no distractions.

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  20. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Judith. Mornin’, honey. The letter of a law probably designed originally to cover bureaucratic bungling but what about the human right to hold and express an opinion?

    I don’t see commenting anonymously contravenes the contract. The use of “company” computers is clearly unwise but no big deal in the scheme of things. Just a stick to beat you with.

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  21. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    Re the 5000+ commenter on Slater’s blog who works for the MSD:

    More shit to come on that I reckon. Wonder if s/he and Slater corresponded via email. Soon find out I guess.

    Anyone know the pseudonym? Does s/he comment on this blog too?

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  22. Left Right and Centre (2,983 comments) says:

    If every occasion that a person has used the ‘(eg) this many of ‘x’ things laid end to end would make a line that would reach to the moon and back ten times’ jaw-dropper perspective enabler, was typed out in twelve point font size and laid out end to end – all the sentences would make a line that would reach from earth to the sun and back 157 944 times. Fact. ;)

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  23. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    Scott Chris – that’s an ominous precedent for blog commenting with people using pseudonyms being outed by journalists using hacked data.

    I wonder how Journalists will react when their sources are outed.

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  24. oldpark (338 comments) says:

    On reflection and hearing some comments being bandied around regarding the Labour Party Channel TVNZ It sounds like John Key was ambushed by TVNZ camera angles and his stage position last night.TVNZ and all their full supporting programme of Labour Party sycophants, were and are desperate for traction in polls,including the Cunliffe look-a-like Corrin Dann. Cunliffe the big bombastic bully, got the straight on camera shot a distinct advantage for Bully BOY CUNLIFFE.Our PM John Key was treated like the poor relation,he was given side on camera shots a distinct disadvantage. TVNZ once more caught in the headlights again.It was not so long ago they allowed Labour Party officials including Cunliffe to run official Labour Party business from Taxpayer funded buildings.Shame TVNZ, for attempting to handicap John Key in last nights so called leaders debate.Thank fully they have been found out.with their dirty tricks against John Key.

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  25. Left Right and Centre (2,983 comments) says:

    Sound advice from MSD for swinging the odds of gaining employment in your favour . . .

    Look at where the job is located. Employers might prefer their workers to live nearby. Some people will put their aunty’s address on their CV if they live closer.

    Got it – lie about where one resides. I’m sorry – that’s a bit posh. Where you ‘stay’. Underclass lingo.

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  26. EAD (1,128 comments) says:

    Chris Martenson blames the Central Blanks:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-28/i-blame-central-banks

    So do I

    some excerpts:

    “Note that global debt climbed by $30 trillion between 2007 and 2013, …….Who borrowed all that money then?

    Why, nations did. Sovereign entities that were desperate to keep things afloat and borrow heavily (because private concerns weren’t able to take on new debt fast enough).

    Why? Because the world’s debt pile must keep expanding (that’s what happens when you use debt as money). That’s the world we live in today. If the pile should start to contract, the game of Who Will Take The Losses? begins. And governments know (sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously) that the debt bubble has become so monstrous, and so interconnected globally, that even a moderate correction will wipe out so many players that the world financial system will be brought to its knees. Or worse.”

    Hedge accordingly

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  27. Simon (727 comments) says:

    If you are in the Syrian army whatever why the fuck would you surrender to ISIS?

    You might as well surrender to a triffid.

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  28. markm (114 comments) says:

    We have had mass protests about the right of our GCSB to monitor emails of potential criminals , terrorists etc , with the written approval of a Judge yet these same people are silent when 6 years of a bloggers emails are stolen.

    If that wasn’t enough now its ok to steal emails from people who don’t share your views and track their computer to their workplace in a bid to have them fired for views opposing yours.

    Mr Fisher of the Herald you are one very very sick individual.

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  29. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    @ Odakyu-Sen

    I think there is a difference between a government employee making the odd contribution to a blog in their own time from their own home. To be making a vast number of posts (over 5,800) from work computer on topics that directly relate to the ministry that they operate is a clear breach.

    Lets assume that each visit to the site took 3 minutes to read the blog & other comments and another 1 minute to pen a comment. 5800 x 4 minutes = 23,200 minutes = 386.7 hours …assuming this was done over the course of two years, and allowing 4 weeks of holidays that equates to 4 hours a week.

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  30. Simon (727 comments) says:

    The banking system in NZ was quietly bailed out by RBNZ in 2008. Pure money print injection into banking system by RBNZ. At least in America you know about it.

    Two banks in nz last time were on the brink of falling over. One is certain to go next time.

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  31. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    hj

    Here’s Norman Tebbitt on the Conservative UKIP defector.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/normantebbit/100284355/the-house-of-commons-needs-men-like-douglas-carswell-i-would-not-campaign-against-him/

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  32. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    @ Simon that is total bollocks.

    None of the NZ banks have been under risk of going under. The deposit guarantee scheme introduced by RBNZ was a defensive mechanism to sure up consumer confidence in the financial sector. Note that the deposit guarantees protected the customers of the banks, not the banks themselves. The capital levels and asset quality of New Zealand banks were/are far superior to those in the USA, suggest that you do some research as to how many AA or higher credit rating banks there are in the world.

    The last time an NZ bank needed bailing out was BNZ and that was in 1990 to the tune of $380 million, at which point the government was a 51% shareholder (having reduced its stake from ~85% the previous year). Two years after that BNZ was sold to NAB.

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  33. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    @ holysheet, I use Chrome but will check out Firefox at your recommendation.

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  34. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Dennis Horne says at 8:39 am

    “The use of “company” computers is clearly unwise…”

    This is the only issue that should come up. Using a government computer during work hours.
    His personal opinion is just that, his personal opinion and while fascist Fisher might not like it, it is still perfectly legal to have an opposing opinion in New Zealand, at least it was the last time I looked.

    mikenmild must be getting very worried….

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  35. EAD (1,128 comments) says:

    The news of Douglas Carswell defecting to UKIP is great news.

    Just like in NZ, it is no longer a case of left/right anymore. It is literally the people vs. the politicians who seek to impose their sick twisted Fabian vision on society as they plan for their “year zero”.

    The British (I mean the real British) have had enough. Had enough of Mulitculturalism, green taxes, social engineering, their basic taken away. Just in the last few days we’ve had “British” “freedom fighters” beheading journalists in Iraq, the scandal of Rotheram where politicians turned a blind eye to the rapes of over 1,600 girls in the name of “community cohesion”.

    You can only push people so far before they can take it no more. No amount of spin, MSM smearing, false promises will stop the people rising up and saying enough is enough – we want to live like human beings, not like farmyard animals to be pushed around by the political elite.

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  36. Odakyu-sen (676 comments) says:

    I agree with Judith in principle,
    however, a quick read of http://www.ssc.govt.nz/upload/downloadable_files/Code-of-conduct-StateServices.pdf
    suggests that the only thing this guy failed to do was:

    “–use our organisation’s resources carefully and only for intended purposes” I accept that he misused his work computer.

    Does the thought, “Poor people are stupid for having children” indicate that you will support the policies of one party over those of another? If so, then he could be in contravention of the requirement to “– maintain the political neutrality required to enable us to work with current and future governments.”

    The Code requires that employees “– ensure our actions are not affected by our personal interests or relationships” If there any evidence that his personal interests (prejudice against poor people) affected his actions?

    You could make a case for “–avoid any activities, work or non-work, that may harm the reputation of our organisation or of
    the State Services. ” But only after he was uncovered in an operation that scores 10 out of 10 in the Stasi Good-Housekeeping manual.

    What about an uptick for “– be honest”?

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  37. EAD (1,128 comments) says:

    The news of Douglas Carswell defecting to UKIP is great news. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100284247/douglas-carswells-defection-is-a-seismic-shock-to-the-british-political-system/

    The top rated comment:

    “Carswell has integrity and the interests of us peons at heart – he wants a democracy that involves and includes people not just politicians – he is the right sort of MP and I wish him luck in the by-election.”

    Just like in NZ, it is no longer a case of left/right anymore. It is literally the people vs. the politicians who seek to impose their sick twisted Fabian vision on society as they plan for their “year zero”.

    You can only push people so far before they can take it no more. No amount of spin, MSM smearing, false promises will stop the people rising up and saying enough is enough – we want to live like human beings, not like farmyard animals to be pushed around by the political elite.

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  38. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Other_Andy (2,498 comments) says:
    August 29th, 2014 at 9:01 am

    But according to the State Services Code of Conduct, you are not allowed to share that opinion in a manner that could reflect poorly on your employer – the government.

    Let’s say you work for a chocolate manufacturer and you post regularly on the internet details of their recipes, and even opinions on how disgusting the chocolates or the processes are – how long do you think you’d keep your job, especially if the employer did a search of their data and found out you’d been posting this during his time?

    Sure, you’re entitled to your opinion, and if your opinion is important enough to you that you are happy to publish it, then be prepared to be unemployed.

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  39. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    Great support Colon.
    /

    A few days ago the National Front came out in support of the Conservative Party, today their poll ratings have rocketed up close to 5% and their leader has declared they hope to halve immigration to 20,000.

    The National Front Website has an average of 5328 page views a day this month. Perhaps we are having an influence.

    Google cache

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  40. Odakyu-sen (676 comments) says:

    “– we want to live like human beings, not like farmyard animals to be pushed around by the political elite.”

    Well, don’t vote for the parties of the political elite, then…

    …duh!

    (I mean, how hard can it be?)

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  41. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    a dude who comments on whale oil is a lead story on the herald site? lol wtf

    personally i have only commented on WO a couple of times. signed up with a newly created email address etc i never felt comfortable there.

    wouldnt be impressed if us kiwibloggers were all outted!

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  42. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    lmao nothing like a National Front endorsement.

    Heard wussel norman on zb this morning whining about his flag.. it was either that or not being at the debate.

    imagine having that prick AND cunliffe talking over NZ’s most popular PM in history.

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  43. IGM (421 comments) says:

    Cunliffe is all mouth and no brain, not even making decisions during basic questioning on radio, without getting the nod from third party hangers-on. He is a good-for-nothing, fabricating goose . . . will never get over the line.

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  44. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Judith says at 9:10 am

    “But according to the State Services Code of Conduct, you are not allowed to share that opinion in a manner that could reflect poorly on your employer – the government.”

    You know the concept of anonymity don’t you?
    You only know he is a ministry employer because some unscrupulous reporter has decided to use illegally obtained information to link him to the ministry. Nowhere did he indicate (unlike our friend mikemild) that he worked for the ministry.
    And by the way, I agree with his comments.
    “reflect poorly” is a matter of opinion.

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  45. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    This is the second person David Fisher has outed using hacked private information. How many more will there be?

    How would Fisher report the hacking of a journalist’s emails and the outing of their sources?

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  46. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Other_Andy (2,499 comments) says:
    August 29th, 2014 at 9:19 am

    The person might have thought he was posting anonymously, but clearly he wasn’t, because, like all of us, we leave tracks that can determine our identity. The fact they know who he is, means he wasn’t anonymous in anything other than title.

    The internet is relatively new in the big picture. It was invented and implemented without rules. Rules are slowly being made to deal with issues as they have arisen, but as we have seen in the last couple of weeks, even laws do not protect a persons identity.

    Like it or not, the internet is not a safe place, and it certainly not a place to claim anonymity. In its current state, achieving anonymity is very difficult and we should all presume, that it is possible our identity could be known, and conduct ourselves accordingly.

    The reflect poorly was a comment regarding the ability to cause the government harm. An employee of the government making such statements could be taken to reflect the governments opinion, and even if you agree with it, there will be some that won’t, and that could cause the govt, his employer, embarrassment.

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  47. EAD (1,128 comments) says:

    @ cha

    I think the New Zealand electorate is capable of distinguishing The Conservatives message from the rest of the nonsense in our so called public debate, despite efforts (like yours) to smear the party with that favourite label of the liberal left: “wayyyycist”

    No one is going to be put off voting for The Conservatives just because they’ve been endorsed by organisation blankety-blank.

    The media (and the various political parties) have been trying to smear The Conservatives for years. It’s just noise and shows up people like Slater as having a complete lack of principles.

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  48. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    Regardless of the morality of the Fisher outings is the moral of the story is only post comments that you would be prepared to make if identified.

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  49. Tom Barker (143 comments) says:

    I wonder if Mr Key has kept Merrill Lynch’s business card in his wallet?

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  50. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    cha says at 9:11 am

    Ah, guilty by association.
    He knew a guy that had a fried whose sister was……

    “The National Front Website has an average of 5328 page views a day this month.”

    That’s Yoza trawling for the latest conspiracy theories and smear campaigns on the evil Jews.

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  51. Neil (588 comments) says:

    Just listening to Radio Live with Sean Plunket interviewing Matthew Hooten. Apparently Hooten has sprayed John Key/Judith Collins in the latest Metro magazine.
    I listened to Hooten explain in a very detailed but boring way how the dots could be joined up,
    Apparently Hooten still wants Key to win the election however this seems another effort to force Key to cut Collins adrift.
    I watch with interest and look to see how the Nats handle it.
    The Team Key thing was always high risk- it now is becoming evident that it was.

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  52. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    “Regardless of the morality of the Fisher outings is the moral of the story is only post comments that you would be prepared to make if identified.”

    that would make for a boring comment section.

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  53. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    Oh no.

    Poll puts Minto into Parliament

    This is the gentleman who, if given the opportunity, would dictate that nobody is allowed to earn any more than $250,000 per year, by setting a 100 per cent income tax rate for any income over this amount.

    I don’t know if that’s official Mana policy, but Minto has previously described it as draft Mana policy.

    Regardless of that, some of Mana’s more interesting policies include:

    – Buy or take back (WTF???!!!) key state assets, like power companies and telecommunications, at the price paid for them (or their market value – whichever is the lower), exclusive of the millions in fees and incentives used to sell them
    – Increase the minimum wage to $18.80 per hour (a living wage) and index it at 66% of the average wage to ensure it remains a living wage
    – Limit class sizes in all state schools, including kura kaupapa and wharekura, to a teacher:student ratio of 1:15 (sounds great but, umm, I wonder how they will pay for all these extra teachers?)
    – Terminate all spying arrangements where New Zealand participates directly or indirectly in spying in Aotearoa and elsewhere
    – Require any foreign investment to satisfy a Te Tiriti o Waitangi impact assessment and approval from mana whenua
    – Support the use of cannabis for medicinal purposes when made available under prescription from a health professional
    – State housing building project to build 10,000 new homes per year until the crisis in rental availability for low income people and families is addressed, generating new jobs and training opportunities across all related trades
    – Add Matariki Day as a new public holiday under the Holidays Act
    – Enable NZ workers to take industrial action in support of workers employed by the same transnational company overseas
    Abolish prisons and replace with other measures including habilitation centres
    – Make te reo Māori a core curriculum subject in all English-medium schools alongside English, Maths, and Science, and develop a plan to ensure there are sufficient teachers and learning resources to deliver this policy
    – Introduce te reo Māori competency standards into broadcasting licences, supported by the provision of appropriate training to enable standards to be met

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  54. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    Sorry – second link above should be http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/blogs/frontline/2821218/Put-a-cap-on-eye-popping-incomes

    That’s where John Minto describes his idea of setting a 100 per cent income tax rate for any income over $250,000.

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  55. Slipster (175 comments) says:

    hj (8:12am): “I have firm evidence”
    —-
    Same kind of evidence as Peters?

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  56. Gravelroad (155 comments) says:

    Gee Graham, maybe Dotcom would be better off in an American prison after all.
    When the Mana people have used a chunk of his millions to get some communist-based power, they will take the rest off him in tax!

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  57. Milk Me (157 comments) says:

    Minto, or Kimble Bent as I like to call him has some sound ideas and don’t write him off as a crackpot all together because of some of his more outlandish ideas.
    Smaller classes, state housing built by the government, increasing the minimum wage etc, all excellent ideas. Stuff the present government should be doing but instead, bigger classes, rampant house prices, tax cuts for the better off and the rise in GST all things that actually disadvantages the less well off.
    it is like this government goes out of its way to put the boot into those who are in most need of help, the people that pay proportionally more in taxes than the more well off. Hardly a caring inclusive government. How is this working for New Zealand?

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  58. Rufus (667 comments) says:

    Kowtow 8:12

    there’s a fun little internet meme in the making:

    “Immigration is rape culture”

    h/t VP

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  59. ciaron (1,434 comments) says:

    7 Comments to go until the murder post reaches 1000! I’m picking it will be Judith’s :)

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  60. wf (447 comments) says:

    I recently did a course in critical thinking.

    It was great fun, and I found that I seemed to be quite good at examining argument, but the end result is that I am increasingly impatient with blog posters, party line repeaters, and shonky policy projects.

    So the tv is off, the radio silent, and computer getting fewer minutes of my attention.

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  61. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    re: rape culture, I see that in America a group of college students have invented a nail polish that women can wear and that, when dipped in a drink, can detect the presence of date-rape drugs. Good idea? Of course it is. But feminists don’t like it because, you know, rape shouldn’t happen in the first place etc and they’d rather aim for some impossible utopia where it doesn’t happen rather than to come up with a solution that aids women now, and that the nail polish is also “rape culture”.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/386267/feminists-say-roofie-detecting-nail-polish-actually-also-rape-culture-katherine-timpf

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  62. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    Russia has invaded the Ukraine this week, but the U.S refuses to call it that.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/us-officials-wont-call-russias-invasion-of-ukraine-an-invasi#2d5dwn9

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  63. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    rufus

    Multiculturalism and muslim immigration is rape culture, as the Swedes have come to learn.

    I can’t understand why people aren’t marching in the streets over what’s happening to their own people in their own countries as opposed to buying into leftwing and Arab Muslim activism over Gaza.

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  64. Nookin (3,354 comments) says:

    ciaron
    I am picking that it will be intolerant, wholly dismissive of the views of anyone else, a repetition of something that has been said hundreds of times previously, adds nothing whatsoever new to the debate and may go as far as being personally abusive.

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  65. Nookin (3,354 comments) says:

    wf

    What course? Critical thinking or logical thinking?

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  66. flipper (4,083 comments) says:

    Tom Barker (132 comments) says:

    August 29th, 2014 at 9:30 am
    ****

    Nahhh……

    News flash… Breaking news ….. J Key elected Secretary General of the United Nations, thrashing Helengrad Clark in repeat of 2008.

    Mr(?) Barker, your dickhead comments have the probative value of CminusT’s hagerisms.
    Go away.

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  67. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ciaron (1,383 comments) says:
    August 29th, 2014 at 11:21 am

    Why would you pick that, especially as I have posted far less in the last week or so, than any of the other regular posters in that thread?

    My pick would be either Muggins or Rowan. Statistically more probable. However, given your statement, the one thing you can be sure of – it certainly won’t be me now – because I would never give you the satisfaction of being right. :P

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  68. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Fletch ,

    For once what do you and Queen Sarah exactly propose doing about the invasion.?

    A blitzkrieg via Poland for example.??

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  69. Milburn35 (43 comments) says:

    Cunliffe has said that they could free up government land for Labour’s Kiwi Build programme. Isn’t this selling State assets that his party is totally opposed to?

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  70. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    Crusher and the Whale: A LOVE STORY!!

    https://soundcloud.com/dr-kinbote/crusher-and-the-whale

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  71. Odakyu-sen (676 comments) says:

    kowtow noted: “I can’t understand why people aren’t marching in the streets over what’s happening to their own people in their own countries…”

    Would the big “G” word be too strong or too loaded a term to use to describe the dissolution of local community cohesion and the total re-modelling of indigenous societies that occurs when a government allows large numbers of people from a totally alien and assimilation-resistant culture to form enclaves within those communities?

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  72. ciaron (1,434 comments) says:

    Judith (8,365 comments) says:

    Why would you pick that…

    Simply because:
    A) you seem to be extremely passionate about the subject.
    B) whenever I see that post in the recent comments, it’s invariably attached to your name :)

    it certainly won’t be me now – because I would never give you the satisfaction of being right.

    That’s a bit cut-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, innit? :)

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  73. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    I’m getting really tired of listening to Shonkey answering a different question to the one he is asked!!

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  74. OneTrack (3,114 comments) says:

    Scott Chris – “Anyone know the pseudonym? Does s/he comment on this blog too?”

    Does anybody care? To be blunt, I don’t care much what he (the public servant) says on a blog as long as he does the job that is expected of him.

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  75. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    I was delighted to read today that Simpson Grierson, one of New Zealand larger law firms, has received a “Rainbow Tick” for being just delightfully non sexist and gender balanced…In passing, I note that that the original LGBT list of sexual deviations (Lesbian, Gay, Bi-sexual, Trans-gender) has now …ah…blossomed to become LGBTTI…i.e. the preceding list, plus Transgender, tatapouri (or something…presumably that means any member of one of the preceding categories who happens to be Maori) and Intersex…

    Where will this end? Will large companies in the near future be commended for being “open” to the LGBTTIPP communities? (That is to all of the existing categories plus Polygamous and Polyamory) Or LGBTTIPPPB?? ( The expanded category, plus Paedophile and Bestiality?

    But those are against the law someone will cry….so’s Polygamy mate, but would anyone like to wager a box of chocolate fish that such relationships will note receive legal blessing within the next ten years? Once that hurdle is surmounted marrying your dog is but another step on the road to progressive enlightenment…

    Oh and talking of wagers, where’s my $200 Andrew Geddis?

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  76. OneTrack (3,114 comments) says:

    Milburn35 – “Cunliffe has said that they could free up government land for Labour’s Kiwi Build programme. Isn’t this selling State assets that his party is totally opposed to”

    Cunliffe will say and do anything to get into power. Off-hand comments that nobody will be able to do anything about after the election, he doesn’t care.

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  77. OneTrack (3,114 comments) says:

    DG – “Where will this end? Will large companies in the near future be commended for being “open” ….”

    It looks like it is going to become “required”.

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  78. UrbanNeocolonialist (289 comments) says:

    The Centre right are consistently polling around 60% in this country, with typically higher disposable incomes than the left, yet the MSM are pitching almost entirely at the (typically lower disposable income) left wing, and are rapidly shedding viewers.

    What on earth are the media company bosses thinking? Are they deliberately trying to destroy their businesses? And why do their shareholders tolerate such business-damaging editorial policy?

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  79. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ciaron (1,384 comments) says:
    August 29th, 2014 at 11:51 am

    Clearly your observation skills are not the best then. Please don’t go applying for a position with the GCSB.

    At the beginning of that thread I posted a great deal about the Crewe murders, which was the subject of the thread.

    I have made a total of 16 posts on that thread regarding things Bain, the first on 6 Aug, the second not until the 20th Aug and so on.

    When you consider the large amount of posts made by other posters such as Stephieboy on matters Bain – my postings are insignificant. If you take for example the number of posts on that thread made by him, then clearly you are not a particularly efficient observer – or is it just that my politics tend to be left wing, his right, and therefore I make a better target to critique?

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  80. OneTrack (3,114 comments) says:

    Pete – “This is the second person David Fisher has outed using hacked private information. How many more will there be?”

    This Fisher character seems a pretty nasty person.

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  81. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    OneTrack (2,793 comments) says:
    August 29th, 2014 at 12:13 pm

    This Fisher character seems a pretty nasty person.

    Maybe he is a student of Slater’s? Still has a bit to learn to catch up with the Whale’s high standard of nastiness though.

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  82. DJP6-25 (1,388 comments) says:

    hj 8:14 am. Good news.

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  83. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    JUdith , as such a keen observer how many posts has rowan made. ?

    What t is the basis of your assumption that I’m Right Wing as a matter of interest.?

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  84. Fletch (6,408 comments) says:

    Fletch ,

    For once what do you and Queen Sarah exactly propose doing about the invasion.?

    I’m not a diplomat, so I don’t know, but something other than sitting on my hands and just letting it happen. Ditto for the slaughter in Iran. And Syria. And Nigeria. etc etc.

    Of course, if I was Obama I know what I’d do.
    Play golf.

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  85. Andrei (2,664 comments) says:

    Russia isn’t invading Fletch, Ukraine is collapsing, winter is coming and Europe is headed for deep recession.

    An American foreign policy debacle to rival any other you can think of……

    Now they have smashed up Ukraine what are they going to do smash up the rest of Europe to save face?

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  86. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Onetract: It will eventually get to the point where the acronym (I know it’s not strictly and acronym but you know what I mean) is so lengthy it will be a required NCEA course to know what they all mean!!

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  87. ciaron (1,434 comments) says:

    @ Judith,
    You’re overanalysing this. I simply saw your name in the recent comments when I posted, and thought there would be a good chance of it being you to strike the magic 1000, because we all know you don’t just drop a comment and run (like say, Penny Bright). take it for the friendly ribbing it was intended to be :)

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  88. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    I used to correspond with David Fisher occasionally; he cut me off for being a racist. I think he is a good man who, typical of the left, thinks things are as he wants them to be, or can be with the right attitude, despite the facts – all I did was compare Polynesians with Jews, especially in theoretical physics.

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  89. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ciaron (1,385 comments) says:
    August 29th, 2014 at 12:28 pm

    Sorry – I over reacted – used to getting flack due to my stance on ‘matters Bain’. Humble apologies! :-)

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  90. ciaron (1,434 comments) says:

    Lets put this whole election shambles into perspective:

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xv6tp3_blackadder-season-03-episode-01-dish-and-dishonesty_shortfilms

    @ Judith, No worries.

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  91. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Judith, still getting everyone ticking the wrong box? ;) ;) ;) All that ticking must be a sign of affection … like a dog licking.

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  92. DJP6-25 (1,388 comments) says:

    David Garrett 12:26 pm. How did you know they are drafting one?

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  93. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    @ Dennis Horne

    …all I did was compare Polynesians with Jews, especially in theoretical physics.

    Fair enough. Although Polynesians’ mastery of practical physics in the field of navigation would provide a much more favourable comparison.

    One group, even though they were still in the stone age, and without aid of compass, sextant or map turned the mighty Pacific Ocean into their personal lake

    …while another calls a puddle “The Sea of Galilee”!

    Mark 4: 35-38

    That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”

    The Israeli Army – the best in the world

    The Israeli Navy – the perpetual Italians of maritime warfare.

    Just saying…

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  94. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Crikey dick!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11315741

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  95. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    @ Dennis Horne

    …all I did was compare Polynesians with Jews, especially in theoretical physics.

    Fair enough. Although the knowledge of Polynesians when it comes to practical physics in the field of navigation would provide a much more favourable comparison.

    One group, even though they were still in the stone age, and without aid of compass, sextant or map turned the mighty Pacific Ocean into their personal lake

    …while another calls a puddle “The Sea of Galilee”!

    Mark 4: 35-38

    That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?” 39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.

    The Israeli Army – the best in the world

    The Israeli Navy – the perpetual Italians of maritime warfare in search of divine intervention merely to survive (refer to the Prophet Jonah).

    Just saying…

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  96. ciaron (1,434 comments) says:

    And the winner is:

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/who_killed_the_crewes-2.html#comment-1391691

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  97. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Hello, Kimbo. I enjoyed reading your contributions recently. Very clear thinking with one blind spot. Or of course I could be wrong about gods.

    I don’t believe the Polynesians were the great navigators they claim, or anything like the Europeans. I wonder how many canoes were lost before being shipwrecked on NZ…

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  98. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    @ Dennis Horne

    I don’t believe the Polynesians were the great navigators they claim, or anything like the Europeans. I wonder how many canoes were lost before being shipwrecked on NZ…

    Alas, Dennis. I fear you analysis is faulty, as follows.

    You are apealing to something you don’t know: “I wonder how many…”

    When what we do know is rather compelling:

    The Polynesians settled the most far-flung geographic points (Hawaii-New Zealand-Rapanui/Easter Island) in the history of humankind prior to the Portuguese in the 15th Century

    and their journeys of discovery almost certainly extended as far as the Americas, from where they brought back tubers such as the kumara.

    Sounds like an orderly process of discovery to me. Or is it only haphazard and precarious when it isn’t Phoencians, Vikings, Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, French, and British?

    And anyway, wasn’t your comparison between Polynesians and Jews (who in the first instance are Semitic, not European)?

    Psalm 107: 23-30

    23Some went out on the sea in ships;
    they were merchants on the mighty waters.

    24They saw the works of the Lord,
    his wonderful deeds in the deep.

    25For he spoke and stirred up a tempest
    that lifted high the waves.

    26They mounted up to the heavens and went down to the depths;

    in their peril their courage melted away.

    27They reeled and staggered like drunkards;
    they were at their wits’ end.

    28Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble,
    and he brought them out of their distress.

    29He stilled the storm to a whisper;
    the waves of the seab were hushed.

    30They were glad when it grew calm,
    and he guided them to their desired haven.

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  99. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Dennis Horne says at 12:59 pm

    “I don’t believe the Polynesians were the great navigators they claim, or anything like the Europeans. I wonder how many canoes were lost before being shipwrecked on NZ…”

    I have read all the theories about how fantastic the Polynesians were when it came to navigation.
    And then…..
    Always wondered why they never discovered Australia.

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  100. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Andrei and the gospel according to RT , Putin and the Kremlin.!

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  101. stephieboy (3,163 comments) says:

    Ohter Andy,

    I wonder if you believe the Polynesians are some how inferior compared to a pale face like you.?

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  102. Dennis Horne (2,403 comments) says:

    Kimbo. I think you know I have an old MSc from University College Hospital Medical School. I don’t know much about science but I know a bit about research. If some science shows Polynesians made return journeys then the science is probably wrong.

    You see, I have faith in my judgement about some things. As do you, about some things.

    You are a most interesting person but I must go for a walk with my long-suffering first wife…

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  103. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    @ Other_Andy

    Always wondered why they never discovered Australia.

    Presumeably the prevailing West-East head wind.

    But then who the hell would want to be blamed for discovering Australia?! Abel Tasman was so eager to avoid the infamy he managed to sail right around it without even knowing it was there!

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  104. David Garrett (7,318 comments) says:

    Kimbo: the “Polynesians went to the Americas and back” has long been a discredited theory…not withstanding Thor Heyerdahl’s best efforts 60 years ago…

    There is no evidence at all – so far as I am aware – that once here the Maori ever went back to – say – Tonga or Fiji, although both those groups of Islands are only 1000 miles or so from here…but, like Australia, they would have been beating against the wind to get to either..

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  105. Milk Me (157 comments) says:

    David.There is also no evidence to say they didn’t make the voyages multiple times either, no one actually knows for sure.

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  106. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett

    “Polynesians went to the Americas and back” has long been a discredited theory…not withstanding Thor Heyerdahl’s best efforts 60 years ago…

    No, I always thought Heyerdahl’s thesis was that Polynesians originated in the Americas. Which we know, via genetics, and the discovery of Lapita pottery in the Bismarck Archipelago, they didn’t.

    But if the Polynesians didn’t make it to the other side of the Pacific, how do you account for the kumara?

    And I don’t see what over-whelming relevance the lack of evidence of Maori returning to the islands of the South Pacific has. The issue is “Polynesians”, not just one sub-group.

    Or are you saying it is proof the Polynesians could only sail one way? If so, again, where and how did they get tubers?

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  107. Odakyu-sen (676 comments) says:

    I’m with Kimbo on this one.

    Culture and legends may lay claim to almost any story, but the kumara, she don’t lie.

    Specifically the DNA matching of ancient samples of kumara.

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  108. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    @ Odakyu-sen

    Plus if a Polynesian was prepared to marry David Garrett…that is surely proof of their remarkable bravery and capacity to suffer and endure long harrowing journeys with a tenuous destination! ;)

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  109. UrbanNeocolonialist (289 comments) says:

    Polynesians absolutely went to Australia – they just couldn’t survive there due to the nasty climate, and violent competition from more numerous aboriginals who were already well adapted to the place. Early European settlement of Australia only barely made it, and then only with the support of shipped food.

    They also went to South America and learned how to cultivate kumara, and bought it back to the islands. http://www.stuff.co.nz/science/8213421/Kumara-origin-points-to-pan-Pacific-voyage

    Amazingly Polynesians were also the first Madagascans.

    Phenomenal navigators, tremendous natural athletes due to high levels of hand-to-hand warfare (typically around 3% killed per year in warfare in stone age settings) and benefits of storing any excess food as muscle (also a useful survival trait for long paddling voyages). Just as for other isolated groups evolutionarily lacking a long history of living in high population density civilisations where violent conflict is rare they have arrived at a different average genetic optima of natural physical and intellectual aptitudes. To pretend otherwise is PC nonsense.

    Those differences are diminishing with every generation in the genetic melting pot that is NZ.

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  110. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Kimbo (715 comments) says at 1:17 pm

    “presumably the prevailing West-East head wind.”

    They got as far as Norfolk Island so I don’t think that would be the case.

    “Abel Tasman was so eager to avoid the infamy he managed to sail right around it without even knowing it was there!”

    He mapped the north coast of Australia in 1644 and called it New Holland.

    stephieboy says at 1:14 pm

    Not the faintest where you are coming from.
    Had a bad day at work?

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  111. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    Australia AND Madagascar?!

    What is the substantive evidence for that?

    British-Israelism was always a load of psuedo-science, but it seems like you are not far from arguing you’ve located the missing 12th tribe!

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  112. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    FWIW:

    It is a verifiable fact that for now totally-unknown reasons, the Maori, having arrived in New Zealand from the Marquesas islands (now French Polynesia) , seemingly lost the ability or inclination to return whence they had come. Although it could be argued that the technology they used (ocean-going canoes) was a factor in this, it is very noticeable that even when Maori became traders and owned their own ‘Western-type) sailing vessels (which in respect of seagoing capability were superior to what they had been used to operating) during the early Nineteenth Century, there was absolutely no inclination to return to, or trade with the Pacific Islands that they had originated from. The inclination was rather to indulge in trade with both Sydney and Melbourne, a trade BTW, in which they were very successful, and in direct competition with the European ship owners / masters.

    Indeed, it was largely thanks to the efforts of Dr. David Lewis that Maori actually came to ‘remember’ their ocean-going achievements, a fact which ultimately resulted in a series of waka journeys across the Pacific. Prior to Dr. Lewis’s various voyages, nothing had been done in that regard and as already noted, it is as if Maori wilfully forgot their origins. The legends that told of the trans-oceanic migrations were certainly ‘in full view’ but the inclination to replicate said voyages was noticeably very absent.

    Although in respect of trans-Tasman sea journeys, it has already been pointed-out that the prevailing winds do tend to discourage such practices. However, these are not constant and it is possible to traverse the Tasman Sea at various times of the year, while returning from Australia is assisted by these self-same winds. However, due to its location, the Tasman IS one of the roughest stretches of water on the planet and while modern yachts can and do cross it regularly, whether an ocean-going canoe made from logs and with flax for ropes etc. could withstand the voyage is something that could be debated. Noticeably AFAIK, there has never been any attempt by ‘modern’ ocean-going waka to try, and Maori legends bear no reference to the existence of any land mass to the south of New Zealand. The existence of the land masses of Australia and Antarctica appear to have been unknown. On this basis, therefore, it must be concluded that Maori, despite having extensively explored the Pacific to the North of the country never undertook the same exercise in the seas to the South and West of these islands.

    The reasons why such explorations were not undertaken will, of course, never be known.

    As I said, FWIW. It’s an interesting topic.

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  113. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    Very likely Polynesians did travel to South America and back around 900BP:

    http://www.nature.com/news/dna-shows-how-the-sweet-potato-crossed-the-sea-1.12257

    Re the race issue, I suspect that if a million Jews were to have their brains swapped at birth with a million Polynesians you’d see very little difference in social outcome from what we currently see.

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  114. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    UrbanNeocolonialist says at 2:55 pm

    “Polynesians absolutely went to Australia”

    First time I have heard that.
    Got any links for that?

    As for American links, I posted this yesterday

    The Kennewick Man

    His closest living relatives appear to be the Moriori people of the Chatham Islands, a remote archipelago 420 miles southeast of New Zealand, as well as the mysterious Ainu people of Japan. . . .

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/kennewick-man-finally-freed-share-his-secrets-180952462

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  115. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    It is a verifiable fact that for now totally-unknown reasons, the Maori, having arrived in New Zealand from the Marquesas islands (now French Polynesia) , seemingly lost the ability or inclination to return whence they had come.

    Occam’s Razor: Can I suggest it was because New Zealand afforded everything – space, food, resources for clothing and housing – that prompted the journey in the first place, compared to the comparative scarcity they left behind?

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  116. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    “Polynesians absolutely went to Australia”

    First time I have heard that.
    Got any links for that?

    The GC?!

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  117. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Kimbo says at 3:11 pm

    The GC?!

    :-)
    Thanks for the laugh!

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  118. UrbanNeocolonialist (289 comments) says:

    Other_Andy: Polynesians went everywhere in the Pacific – how else would they find Hawaii, Pitcairn, Easter, Chatham, Auckland, Norfolk, New Caledonia, South America etc. While I haven’t seen any actual evidence it seems to me that in that context Australia is an impossibly big target to miss (and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).

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  119. J Bloggs (241 comments) says:

    I’d suggest they did find Australia, along with New Guinea and other such island groups – which already had significant native populations (quite warlike ones in the case of New Guinea). Most likely, the polynesian explorers who made it there were killed by the inhabitants, so never reported the existance of such places back to the home islands.

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  120. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    Re: Polynesians and the discovery of Oz: Could we clarify this please: Are we now talking about Polynesians ‘en masse’ or about (New Zealand) Maori specifically?

    I ask this as, for the purposes of this discussion, and for clarity of content and subject, I would suggest that the two discussions either need to be separated or operate under ‘subheadings’ within the body of the post to which they refer.

    BTW: It should be remembered that while the Polynesians were exploring their neighbourhood, the MELANESIANS were also doing the self-same thing (witness Fiji as an example) so it is not unlikely that both groups made contact with each other, probably with somewhat negative results…

    Kimbo:

    Point made. However, the question must therefore be asked, ‘Why did they not continue ‘South’ (the bear went over the mountain etc.) ‘just in case’ there was something even better over the horizon. If what they had found was ‘good’ would there be something ‘better’ over the (metaphorycal) hill ‘out there’?

    Of course they might have done so, but if that had been the case, a legend (aka a ‘mythical story based on fact’) would have been the result, and. as such would probably be extant today. The absence of such stories suggests that perhaps the ‘event’ did not occur…

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  121. J Bloggs (241 comments) says:

    Komata: I was talking Polynesians in general, as some good reasons for NZ maori not going to Aus were outlined above.

    re: going South – I would suggest that by the time you’ve gone down the South Island and Stewart Island, you’ve got a fair idea that its only getting colder, more windswept and inhospitable. NZ, climatewise, is already marginal for growing kumara, and there is little likelyhood of any other food source being further south that justifies the effort of going down there. Likewise, most exploration that occurs in inhospitible environments is usually driven by the search for some sort of wealth or resource (gold, oil, etc.), which was not a driving need for NZ Maori for most of the time they were here, as NZ already met most of their needs.

    Again, I’d suggest that any Maori foolhardy enough to sail south from Stewart islands didn’t survive the roaring 40’s to find anything, let alone return home to tell of it

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  122. J Bloggs (241 comments) says:

    Having just said all that, I’ve just found out there is evidence of polynesian settlement on the Auckland Islands – so they did get that far south.

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  123. Kimbo (934 comments) says:

    Of course they might have done so, but if that had been the case, a legend (aka a ‘mythical story based on fact’) would have been the result, and. as such would probably be extant today. The absence of such stories suggests that perhaps the ‘event’ did not occur…

    From memory Roland Huntford’s book Scott and Amundsen (1978, also published as “The Last Place on Earth”) commences with the reconting of a purported Polynesian myth that an explorer had travelled far to the south, penetrated a white wall, and came across two smioking volcanoes – all a good description of a journey to the end of McMurdo Sound.

    I have no idea of what Huntford’s sources were…

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  124. nasska (11,578 comments) says:

    Worth considering are the currents that exist in the Pacific Ocean. Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a9oo2txer2ec575/Currents.png?dl=0 . BWAV who comments here from time to time actually crewed for part of a canoe journey from NZ to Havaiki….he mentioned that part of the navigation process was determining the direction of the current flow.

    Additionally they didn’t actually have to paddle great distances…..ocean going canoes had sails.

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  125. Reid (16,508 comments) says:

    How did they know to look for that guy working for the Ministry of Social Development who made those comments on the Whale Oil blog?…Apparently this worker signed a Ministry contract pledging “political neutrality in his professional role.” But commenting on a blog is not his professional role. (To be true, if this guy says beneficiaries are stupid for having children, it is a rather bad look for someone working at the Ministry of Social Development. A bit like someone working in the Ministry of Vegan Affairs commenting on a foodie blog about how much they like a rare eye-fillet steak.)

    Yes it’d be an interesting employment court case wouldn’t it, if he did it on his spare time say during the lunch break. If he did it during work hours then he’s probably in a small amount of trouble in that he’s liable to receive a warning.

    Normally the employment contract for civil servants says things along the lines of: do not bring the dept into disrepute and do not reveal anything you have discovered in your work here.

    If he was not using his real name but was discovered because someone else hacked illegally into Whale’s computer and identified him using the materiel stolen therein, then he’s not guilty of bringing the dept into disrepute because his discovery was an act of force majeur and he didn’t identify himself as a Ministry employee when making said comment.

    The comment about beneficiaries being stupid by having children is similarly hard to establish as being insider knowledge, isn’t it.

    However it’d be really really good wouldn’t it if he’s a member of the PSA, because it would be simply hilarious watching them try to represent their member with integrity for commenting on Whale as he did.

    And since one imagines there are any number of MSD employees who do things like say, bid on Trademe and comment on Facebook outside of lunch hours, then he’s got a bloody good case, you’d think.

    And to all the pro-feminist wowsers both male and female, I don’t know he’s a guy, but I can’t be arsed using your approved P.C. diction of his/her, s/he etc etc etc etc etc etc etc because, well, you’re a bunch of wowsers and there’s nothing I enjoy more than making girly wowsers like your good selves apoplectic with unjustified faux rage – bwahahahaha – I hope you poohed your pants you girly wowsers you. And no, the irony that I could have written the above in your approved manner in half the time it’s taken to type this para, hasn’t escaped me. Bwahahaha, again.

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  126. wreck1080 (3,923 comments) says:

    Most armies try to conceal war crimes .

    ISIS is proud of them and wants everyone to know about the mass murders of prisoners.

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  127. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    gasp the living god had his dick in his hand in the great debates that cunliffe WON does this mean that KEY dosnt have a cock like most posters on kiwiblog,COCKLESS PUSSYS

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  128. Nostradamus (3,344 comments) says:

    Has medical science discovered a cure for Bainitis yet?

    I ask this question because I see the Bainiacs are still going hammer-and-tongs at each other on the Crewes thread.

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  129. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    Kiwi rail is turning out to be a real asset.

    Can’t believe we stole it back so cheap!

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  130. tom hunter (4,890 comments) says:

    Has medical science discovered a cure for Bainitis yet?

    I’ve been tempted to go on the thread and suggest that – just to put some facts on the theory – they each practice the Robin Bain exercise with a loaded 22 rifle.

    Kiwiblog should set up a straw poll as to the order they take the test.

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  131. SGA (1,068 comments) says:

    Nostradamus at 5:19 pm

    I ask this question because I see the Bainiacs are still going hammer-and-tongs at each other on the Crewes thread.

    Well… it’s been narrowed down to two possible offenders at least.

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  132. SGA (1,068 comments) says:

    Point made. However, the question must therefore be asked, ‘Why did they not continue ‘South’ (the bear went over the mountain etc.) ‘just in case’ there was something even better over the horizon. If what they had found was ‘good’ would there be something ‘better’ over the (metaphorycal) hill ‘out there’?

    If the original migration to NZ was in some sense out of necessity, then there was no further need to go on – and no good reason to head back. Perhaps.

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  133. ShawnLH (5,284 comments) says:

    Did Uglytruth get banned? I notice he has not been around lately. Not that I want him to be. Just curious.

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  134. Nostradamus (3,344 comments) says:

    ShawnLH: I think he was last seen in Canada investigating the forced disappearance of ten Canadian children in 1964.

    Or, possibly, he may have got sidetracked with another very important matter:

    UglyTruth (2,167 comments) says:
    September 24th, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    So you are going to go with “the queen is a lizard”?

    No. All I’m saying is that there is enough seriously odd evidence to consider the possibility than a malevolent alien force or species has an active interest in western political institutions. It’s an outcome of the denial of the nature of UFOs, the western history of treachery and genocide, the Bohemian Grove connection between western elites and the occult, and the association between genocide, Nazis, the occult, and the Bush crime family.

    Now that’s surely worth investigating!

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  135. Colville (2,272 comments) says:

    ShawnLH.

    Aint it great? :-)

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  136. SGA (1,068 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 5:51 pm

    Did Uglytruth get banned? I notice he has not been around lately. Not that I want him to be. Just curious.

    I wondered about that too. I don’t remember noticing anything cyclical in his posting.

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  137. Pete George (23,591 comments) says:

    I think Ugly Truth was recently banned at The Standard but I doubt it here. People often have things to do other than comment here.

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  138. Reid (16,508 comments) says:

    All I’m saying is that there is enough seriously odd evidence to consider the possibility than a malevolent alien force or species has an active interest in western political institutions.

    I wonder if the people who didn’t bother seriously to consider that statement have any idea whatsoever what the “seriously odd evidence” is and if not, what does that say about their perspicacity, if they think they already know what the answer is, given this world we live in?

    Just saying.

    Next up: Shawn falsely accuses me of being a Jew hater for reasons known only to him.

    Meanwhile, those who don’t know what’s happening because they don’t care to, continue believing the Western meme ISIS is a Muslim grassroots organisation, cos the telly tells them so.

    Just saying.

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  139. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    ugly truth silenced?

    he probably stood too close to a microwave oven and his tin foil hat fryed what was left of his last brain cell.

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  140. kowtow (8,522 comments) says:

    TVNZ news slagging New Zealand off. Our first acton in WW1 ,Samoa.

    If we’re so shit, how come so many Samoans are happy to live with us war criminals and inept colonials?

    TVNZ,cultural marxist traitors.

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  141. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    I hate these bloody adverts!

    I suppose we have Hager to thank for that!

    Kiwiblog gets promoted in his book, more visitors, increase the ads = more profit.

    That bloody Hager has a lot to answer for! :-)

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  142. Odakyu-sen (676 comments) says:

    Nostradamus is Ugly Truth.

    I claim my carton of chocolate fish as a prize…

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  143. UrbanNeocolonialist (289 comments) says:

    Scott Chris: If Ashkenazic Jewish brains replaced all Polynesian they would own New Zealand within 2 generations – just as they turned Israel from a tiny parched resourceless shithole to one of the highest GDP countries in the world. There are significant differences between the average cognitive abilities of humans that have evolved in different cultures – Ashkenazics had strong selection pressures for hundreds of years that meant only their smartest had children (due to Christian persecution in Europe), over time this yielded about 15 point higher average IQ (1 standard deviation). They also have a few other problems with Tay Sachs and some other genetic problems, but evolution determined that these were prices worth paying, even though in most other respects they were genetically almost identical to non-Jews they lived amongst.

    Similarly it appears that children of rich families tend to select the best possible (successful/attractive) mates and as a result wealthy families similarly manage to maintain average IQ’s of roughly 15 points above average – allowing dynasties to be maintained.

    IQ (or more accurately general intelligence ‘g’) can be measured directly by tests and inferred by a huge number of indirect tests and measures – from performance in education to various life outcomes. It sucks, and is horribly unfair but it is real, and requires a special sort of irrationality to deny it’s reality given what we have all seen in our schooling and lives. We all know the lucky are born smart the unlucky stupid, with very little influence from Nurture.

    An interesting example of impacts of differences in g is in Male to Female differences.
    http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/sexdifferences.aspx
    Males and Female have almost identical averages (perhaps very small advantage to men due to slightly larger brains), but there is significantly higher standard deviation for men – the consequence being that there are far more men than women at the edges of the bell curve. Twice as many male geniuses (>130) as female, and by the time you get to super intelligent range this means many times as many men as women. But as a sort of balance there are also many times more really low IQ men than women. It is postulated that this is due to the lower evolutionary costs of experimenting on males – a successful man can have 100’s of children, failures have none, but women are limited to 5-10 regardless. So in a truly egalitarian society there should be far more men than women in roles requiring elite cognitive performance, angry feminist howling notwithstanding.

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  144. Nostradamus (3,344 comments) says:

    Odakyu-sen:

    Nostradamus is Ugly Truth.

    I claim my carton of chocolate fish as a prize…

    Actually, Odakyu-sen, I’m you, UglyTruth is me, and you’re UglyTruth – hopefully you’re ok with that? :)

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  145. nasska (11,578 comments) says:

    Incredible the amount of crap the MSM feeds us on a daily basis.

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pc0r1met32dvsgu/Propaganda.jpg?dl=0

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  146. Black with a Vengeance (1,865 comments) says:

    If we’re so shit, how come so many Samoans are happy to live with us war criminals and inept colonials?

    White women…mmmmm yummmy!!!

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  147. nasska (11,578 comments) says:

    The poor women! They expect a warrior & end up with a fat gutted house pet with a micro penis. :)

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  148. Black with a Vengeance (1,865 comments) says:

    ^^^and genetically superior offspring.

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  149. nasska (11,578 comments) says:

    Subjective in the extreme Sootie…..in any case a few years of too much KFC coupled with too little work & their tattooed arses hang down to the back of their knees.

    Just like their fathers. :)

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  150. Milk Me (157 comments) says:

    ^^^^ Usually found congregating in jails.

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  151. Black with a Vengeance (1,865 comments) says:

    haha…jealous much!

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  152. Redbaiter (9,098 comments) says:

    Hey Narsekissa – these people are the products of the cultural decline you progs/ social liberals have presided over. IOW, you’re to large degree responsible for the outcomes you’re objecting to you smug impotent hillbilly whackjob.

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  153. Black with a Vengeance (1,865 comments) says:

    You get the natives you deserve :)

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  154. Nostradamus (3,344 comments) says:

    One thing you can’t take credit for, BWAV, is the term “bobbittize“- not to be confused with “Hobbit-sized” of course!

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  155. Redbaiter (9,098 comments) says:

    “Did Uglytruth get banned? I notice he has not been around lately. Not that I want him to be.”

    That’s not correct. IMHO nobody gave him as much oxygen as you, even when numerous commenters were begging you to desist.

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  156. Black with a Vengeance (1,865 comments) says:

    Sorry nostradamus…have no fucking idea what the relevance of your post is in the context of the conversation unless you just wanted us to know you’re into genital mutilation and dwarf porn ?

    different strokes for different folks and ain’t nothing as queer as folk.

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  157. Nostradamus (3,344 comments) says:

    Oh sorry, BWAV, you cleary missed the part where Nasska mentioned a “fat gutted house pet with a micro penis”. You seemingly approved of that description, because you then added “^^^and genetically superior offspring”.

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  158. Black with a Vengeance (1,865 comments) says:

    On the contrary i dont disapprove. I think it’s aspirational.

    Big dicks are over rated.

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  159. Black with a Vengeance (1,865 comments) says:

    It’s every island boys dream to be a fat gutted house pet with a micro penis and still have some dirty white bitch suck hard on it and cook dinner every night.

    nighty night boys ;)

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  160. Ross12 (1,432 comments) says:

    I note on the Yahoo News they say 631,000 watched the debate last night. does anyone know how they work out these figures??

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  161. dad4justice (8,238 comments) says:

    Just helped the local conservative candidate erect a billboard on the Main North Road.

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  162. Reid (16,508 comments) says:

    I note on the Yahoo News they say 631,000 watched the debate last night. does anyone know how they work out these figures??

    Yeah.

    They tie a blindfold and then stab the keyboard and whatever it says is good, unless it contradicts their pre-determined number, in which case they award themselves another try.

    This is not well known, simply because if it were, everyone would be a journalist.

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  163. nasska (11,578 comments) says:

    Too useless to do it himself was he Dad? :)

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  164. dad4justice (8,238 comments) says:

    No narsekisser he was only a young chap called Hamish and I thought I would help out because it was in front of my local pub that the sign went up. I think my actions got the conservatives a couple of dozen extra votes. He shout me a beer and the land lady of the pub said she and her husband will vote for him.

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  165. Reid (16,508 comments) says:

    You get the natives you deserve

    No we get the natives who hallucinate they don’t owe us anything.

    Plus we get the natives who know they do.

    Since the latter group is well enough educated prior to arrival they know despite agents provocateur like yourself they do owe us something in return for us educating their kids and giving them support while they find their feet etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc and all of those etceteras.

    But some of the scum like you, don’t for some reason appreciate all that largesse and not only seek to undermine your host like the parasite you in fact are, you seek also to encourage others to become like you. Meanwhile, you complain we’re not giving you enough, so you can continue your parasitic existence, just like a parasite does.

    Correct me Black where I’m wrong, but pray back your corrections up with your previous comments. If you can find any which contradict the poison I just outlined.

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  166. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    Urbaneocolonialist – Do you know of a reputable study that shows that an average well developed Polynesian brain is physiologically any different from an average well developed Jewish brain?

    Also I’d be curious to know how the average Roman occupied Briton’s brain condition and IQ compared to their average browner occupier.

    Ashkenazics had strong selection pressures for hundreds of years

    Oh, and a warrior culture didn’t? I’d say the smart strong warrior would beat the less smart strong warrior. (ie ‘smart’ and ‘strong’ genes are selected in a warrior culture)

    Similarly it appears that children of rich families tend to select the best possible (successful/attractive) mates

    So selecting a good looking mate adds to the ‘smart’ gene pool any more than selecting a robust looking mate?

    Note: my hypothetical brain swapping analogy was heavily flawed in that I gave the point of swapping to be ‘at birth’. To make a fair comparison the condition of the sperm and egg and their incubation also has to be on average the same as the respective counterpart.

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  167. nasska (11,578 comments) says:

    It was spring in the old west. The cowboys rode the still snow-choked trails looking for cattle that survived the winter. As one cowboy’s horse went around the narrow trail, it came upon a rattlesnake warming itself in the spring sunshine. The horse reared and the cowboy drew his six-gun to shoot the snake.

    “Hold on there, partner” said the snake “don’t shoot – I’m an enchanted rattlesnake, and if you don’t shoot me, I’ll give you any three wishes you want”.

    The cowboy decided to take a chance. He knew he was safely out of the snake’s striking range. He said “Okay, first, I’d like to have a face like Clark Gable, then, I’d like a body like Arnold Schwarzenegger and finally, I’d like sexual equipment like this horse I’m, riding”. The rattlesnake said “All right, when you get back to the bunk house you’ll have all three wishes”.

    The cowboy turned his horse around and galloped at full speed all the way to the bunk house. He dismounted on the run and went straight inside to the mirror. Staring back at him in the mirror was the face of Clark Gable. He ripped the shirt off his back and revealed bulging, rippling muscles, just like Arnold Schwarzenegger’s.

    Really excited now, he tore down his jeans, looked at his crotch and shouted “My God, I forgot I was riding the mare!”

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  168. Viking2 (11,488 comments) says:

    “Russel Norman says he is more of a disciple of market forces than is the National Party.” This wouldn’t be hard. “‘Everyone says National doesn’t pick winners,’ says Norman, ‘but if you look at what they’re actually doing, they’re not pro-market, they’re Muldoonist.’” This too is true. But Russel?

    =================
    Not often one agrees with Norman but i do in this case.

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  169. Scott Chris (6,150 comments) says:

    Hi BWAV – don’t you guys have Asian dicks? ;)

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  170. UrbanNeocolonialist (289 comments) says:

    Scott: The differences in brain function that create big cognitive performance differences are very subtle being mostly to do with small variations in brain chemistry and microscopic-scale structure, generally impossible to detect except in their emergent behaviour, and perhaps in rare cases with dissection under a microscope.

    We do know that Nurture effects like eliminating childhood disease and good consistent nutrition with no deprivation as well as good education have a significant positive effect – average European IQ increased by perhaps 15-20 points over the 20th century (the “Flynn Effect”), though has topped out now.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
    There are sizeable average IQ differences between poor Africans and their immigrant cousins in the West that can be chalked up to these Nurture aspects. However there are also big differences between groups who’s recent genetic heritage have evolved subject to the pressures of different cultures that can’t be put down to Nurture.

    As to IQ of Roman Britons and Roman Soldiers – who knows, I believe the soldiers were mostly not from Italy anyway, being drawn from native populations all over the empire who served to gain Roman citizenship, but modern experience suggests that cultures subject to persistent violent conflict (killing large portions of their population every generation) rather than other forms of competition have not produced the highest average intelligence.

    Take for example the Europe of the last 1000 years where the genes of rich/successful merchants and business people who out-competed their peers in making political and business decisions as well as working hard dominated the gene pool. A rich merchant or aristocrat might have had 10+ children (legitimate and illegitimate) who made it to adulthood. The poor peasant would be lucky to have one survive as the more advantaged children of richer people took the land/resources that their children needed. Rich people could also often escape warfare and plagues and survive famines with their wealth. They are the majority ancestors of all Europeans. In short smart decisions + work ethic were strongly determined evolutionary ‘fitness’, martial prowess was just not important.

    From what I know of pre-European Maori and polynesian culture women + male slaves did basically all the work (ultimately under threat of violence from men), the men doing only martial pursuits and some fishing/hunting (Read “Old New Zealand” by Manning). A work ethic was probably little rewarded, and intelligence while always useful was not as important as marital prowess/physical strength and dexterity in determining social status and allowing you to procreate. So evolutionary ‘fitness’ was strongly influenced by martial prowess, perhaps less so amongst more peaceful Ngai Tahu who were mostly fighting with the environment to survive.

    I realise that the picture this paints is ugly, and counter to the ideals of equality and the improvability of man fundamental to socialist doctrine, but evolution doesn’t care about our sensibilities, and we can probably come up with better social policy if we stop pretending it doesn’t exist. With luck we will eventually be able to medicinally optimise brain function to level the playing field.

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  171. Black with a Vengeance (1,865 comments) says:

    Combine the euro intelligence with the poly physical prowess and you get me and mine :)

    I dont think you’re ready for this jelly!

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  172. Black with a Vengeance (1,865 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, you complain we’re not giving you enough

    No complaints here cuz.

    perhaps you got me confused with some other nigga :p

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  173. Maggy Wassilieff (406 comments) says:

    Bit late to the Pacific voyaging debate, I know,… but I’ve just taken the quick option to the Americas and seem to be out of sync with NZ time.
    Why don’t you fullas all come up to speed at the same time and check out some of the entries on Te Ara on Polynesian voyaging,
    (Geoff Irwin, in particular, http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/pacific-migrations/page-6)? Then we don’t have to cover old ground about return voyages, El Nino weather influences, plant and animal imports, etc.
    Of course there’s stuff that’s still a bit vague… and I have no doubt that lots of canoes were lost en voyage… but the fact remains.. humans got to these far-flung islands.

    I’ve read that one of the key factors for the success of the Polynesians in voyaging long distances was their large body frame. (i.e. selection for strength and ability to store body fat). This may have been just as important for their survival as their navigational skills.

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