General Debate 5 August 2014

August 5th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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246 Responses to “General Debate 5 August 2014”

  1. campit (467 comments) says:

    Move Palestinians in Gaza to concentration camps, Israeli parliament deputy speaker urges

    Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, has published a plan for the total destruction of the Palestinian people in Gaza.

    His detailed plan, which calls for the use of concentration camps, amounts to direct and public incitement to genocide…

    In a 1 August posting on his Facebook page, Feiglin, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, calls for the “conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.”

    “This is our country – our country exclusively,” he writes, “including Gaza.”

    Feiglin’s posting is the text of a letter he addressed to Netanyahu…

    Calling for mass extermination and ethnic cleansing, Feiglin now urges Netanyahu to “turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians.”

    Jaffa is a major Palestinian coastal city that was ethnically cleansed by Zionist militias in 1948 and incorporated into present-day Israel. The few thousand Palestinians who remain in the city face ongoing attempts to force them out.

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  2. duggledog (1,486 comments) says:

    Nigel Latte on TV1’s ‘Break-farce’ this morning with Rawdon Christie:

    ‘So how do we solve this inequality Nigel?’
    ‘Well we can start with everyone paying their fair share of tax, now Google for example…’

    You thought last week’s expose on inequality ‘Haves and Have Nots’ was good, wait for tonight’s one on Education. And there’s four more to come – coincidentally running right up to the GE.

    How can National continue to allow TVNZ to be a mouthpiece for the likes of Latta? Why would National bail out the heavily indebted Mediaworks when they do the same thing with Brian Bruce running up to the last election?

    I’m speechless.

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  3. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    EAD says manufacturing has declined flipper says:

    Now EAD,

    You remember about steam, oil, and electricity, replacing manpower, wind and water?
    Recall how underground mines brought out their coal?
    Oh, and what about those pesky things that changed agriculture ? Like aerial top dressing, quad bikes, milking machines, and herring bone yards.

    And now we have those idiotic computers and robots. They replaced typists, and process workers.

    Want to pull out your history books and revise your understanding of the industrial revolution (circa 1700) and compare the numbers pro rata, to say, 2014 ????

    And while you are at it, look at the production rates per employee.

    Just a sample, but we can revert if you insist – at a cost.

    Dumbass!….

    A cornucopian is a futurist who believes that continued progress and provision of material items for mankind can be met by similarly continued advances in technology. Fundamentally they believe that there is enough matter and energy on the Earth to provide for the ever-rising population of the world.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornucopian

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  4. duggledog (1,486 comments) says:

    The P.M. waves away concerns about the selling of Lochinvar to the Chinese saying it is a tiny part of New Zealand. He’s going to get whacked by the electorate for this; but will our shit dumb opposition challenge him on the fact the property may be infinitesimally small compared to our land mass, but not when compared with how much of that landmass is actually productive?

    FWIW, yes I do have a problem with selling to the Chinese. They can get money loaned to them practically for nothing. I think they are fantastic immigrants who work hard and keep out of trouble (apart from doing way too many cashies) but I think we have enough now. If I wanted to move to China I would. But I wouldn’t because the place is a corrupt teeming polluted shit hole where the environment means nothing.

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  5. Lance (2,614 comments) says:

    @campit
    I am getting tired of the one sided and distorted river of shit Yosa et all publish but you have manged to take shit to a new level.
    Hell I think Goebbels would blush at that fucking pathetic piece of propaganda.

    Let me guess you have several eye witnesses who swear Israelis bite the heads off kittens.

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  6. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    Differences within Labour and Kelvin Davis versus Home Harawira have erupted in the open with the leaking of emails from the Davis campaign team, Harawira calling on Davis to resign – Labour MP told off for anti-Internet Mana website – and Davis continuing to do it his own way on Facebook.

    https://www.facebook.com/KelvinDavisLabour – including listing a bank account for campaign donations.

    It’s going to be an interesting – and potentially pivotal – campaign in Te Tai Tokerau. Davis has vigorously challenged the Harawira/Dotcom liaison and seems to be challenging the Labour Party as well.

    Elections are supposed to be strongly contested by candidates.

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  7. EAD (921 comments) says:

    Exactly duggle, Does John Key stand by his comments “I am concerned about the risk that New Zealanders become tenants in their own land”.

    People also need to be very wary of the tricks and language the media and political spin doctors are trying to mask this gigantic sale with. They say the sale is to the “Chinese” and we can’t oppose it because to do so would be “xenophobic”.

    These tricks are designed to stop you analysing this sale rationally. The unvarnished truth is that we are selling a primary source of wealth to a foreign Communist government.

    Suddenly the reality doesn’t sound so appealing does it?

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  8. doggone7 (769 comments) says:

    Next question: Why shouldn’t TVNZ be the mouthpiece for the likes of Latta when it is already the mouthpiece of misleading and lying Ministers?

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  9. stephieboy (2,625 comments) says:

    Your right cam pit there might be a minority of Israelis that express extremist views like your Moshe Fieglin but they certainly don’t represent mainstream Israeli or government thinking.
    The original Hamas charter expressed even more extreme views calling for the elimination of Israel.Similar sentiments shared by Shia and Iranian government policy and pronouncements in the past.
    A cursory look at Infitidia and Jihad and anti Jewish web sites in the west similar sentiments calling for the destruction of International Jewry and Israel are to be found
    .Disturbinglly very similar to the same that featured in Nazi Propaganda in the 1930s and the War.

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  10. kowtow (8,114 comments) says:

    Latta is a marxist.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11005948/Taxation-soft-Marxism-is-back-with-a-vengeance.html

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  11. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    It’s fascinating to see that there’s not a mention so far of Kelvin Davis at The Standard since this flared up yesterday.

    Not surprisingly Martyn Bradbury throws another hissy because someone i=on the left isn’t following his revolution plan – When will Kelvin Davis learn how to count? Why the NZ Left need to focus

    There’s no point in belittling Kelvin, but honestly, strategy just isn’t your strength Kelv, stick to your original plan of wanting to speak up for the women and children impacted by domestic violence. Your ambition is running way ahead of your ability at this stage champ.

    It’s more like a clash of ambitions.

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  12. jp_1983 (201 comments) says:

    I wonder if there will be a late change to Labour’s list with the removal of K Davis for that piece of ‘treachery’ he displayed.

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  13. Griff (7,212 comments) says:

    You remember about steam, oil,, replacing manpower,.

    Sun wind and water are about to replace oil and coal.

    funny how flips and many others can not except that progression is inevitable.

    But with out oil and coal ?

    yip without horses even.

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  14. OneTrack (2,965 comments) says:

    Pete – how many hoardings does Davis have up? It looks like he has been muzzled to let dot com through.

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  15. Tauhei Notts (1,675 comments) says:

    I have often thought that the NZ Herald is overpriced, but then they come up with something like Bob Jones’ piece this morning and I think again.
    Jones is bloody brilliant in today’s issue.

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  16. Bob (496 comments) says:

    Hospital staff are not happy with new pay offers and want more. They are talking about taking limited strike action on 1st and 20th September. They are backed by the PSA. Being unhappy about pay negotiations and threatening strikes is nothing unusual. What is suspect is the threat of trouble just a few days before the election. Is the PSA trying to sabotage National’s election campaign? Surely not! Why not wait until after the election which Labour might win when the union can renegotiate with Labour? No, they are not passing up a chance to spike National’s campaign.

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  17. Yoza (1,763 comments) says:

    stephieboy (2,248 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 8:16 am

    Your right cam pit there might be a minority of Israelis that express extremist views like your Moshe Fieglin but they certainly don’t represent mainstream Israeli or government thinking.

    Errr, Moshe Fieglin is Deputy Speaker for the Knesset, he is a high ranking member of the current Israeli government.

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  18. Griff (7,212 comments) says:

    http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-ebola-death-887-spreads-nigeria-20140804-story.html
    Africa
    Ebola is outstripping control efforts, top WHO official warns

    The latest update indicates the disease is picking up speed, with the number of new infections surging by 33% over the last three-day report ending July 27, and three new cases reported in Nigeria, the latest country to be hit by the disease.

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  19. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    OneTrack – someone from Davis’ campaign assured me last week they were putting up hoardings, but 3 News reported yesterday in Labour MP told off for anti-Internet Mana website

    Emails leaked to 3 News reveal plans by Kelvin Davis’ campaign team for an online smear campaign against Internet Mana, until the party shut it down.
    In Te Tai Tokerau there are a lot of billboards, but they are not for Mr Davis. His campaign team has been pushing for the new website instead – part of an anti-Internet Mana smear campaign.

    Any reports on hoardings from the far north?

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  20. EAD (921 comments) says:

    @ hj 8.07

    You are correct – nothing can grow exponentially forever and the big problem we face is we have an exponential money system. It must grow in order to work as it has been designed to. With such growth our financial system behaves well, and without such growth it weakens and will eventually collapse.

    The central problem we face is really that simple and that profound. As any fourth former can tell you, nothing can grow forever in a finite space. Our money system is built for a world without limits, which means it is built for something that does not exist.

    That requirement for endless monetary and economic growth is now encountering very real limits. That’s why the global economy has been stumbling along since 2008. And the situation cannot be ‘fixed’, at least, not if that means returning to the growth rates we enjoyed for most of the 20th century. There’s no combination of policy tweaks, spending cuts, or investments that will allow our system – as it is currently designed – to run forever. Or even all that much longer, historically speaking.

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  21. Keeping Stock (10,254 comments) says:

    Big ups to Kelvin Davis for giving David Cunliffe and Labour’s Vote Positive the upraised finger. He’s gone feral on Dotcom, and not before time.

    I guess that means Annette Sykes will now get the “dirty deal” from Cunliffe she was talking about last week, because Labour will not be able to cobble together a coalition if MegaMana does not get in. Cunliffe has ruled out Mana being in government, but significantly, he hasn’t ruled out a confidence and supply or an abstention deal.

    Vote Positive – vote Kelvin Davis in Te Tai Tokerau, and keep Kim Dotcom out of New Zealand politics!

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/08/kelvin-david-fights-back.html

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  22. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    I am getting tired of the one sided and distorted river of shit Yosa et all publish but you have manged to take shit to a new level.

    The Facebook page is real. Given that Feglin has a history of promoting a “maximum force” approach, odds are that the original report is accurate.

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  23. flipper (3,922 comments) says:

    hj…

    Typical, hj, making yet another gratuitous comment on population, or migration, or on other matters with which he/it is enamoured, but knows bugger all.

    Your comment this morning, hj, clearly relates to the exercise of the ‘precautionary principle’, and is illuminating.

    It has always seemed to me that the ‘principle’ is a rather sanctimonious contrivance that allows people of your persuasion to continue to engage in the delightful task of self-preening without the need to temper this indulgence with any obligation to think.

    I make no comment on what might have been the condition of mankind had this foolishness prevailed throughout human history. But to start your re-education process, hj, go read and study , The limits of Growth, by that well informed Club of Rome, which I remind, featured many of the suspects perpetrating the AGW/CC fraud.

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  24. Bob (496 comments) says:

    An error on my part: the second hospital strike is for the 10th not 20th September.

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  25. KiwiGreg (3,246 comments) says:

    @flipper, let’s not forget The Population Time Bomb by Ehrlich; who has also shown up on the “climate change” bandwagon.

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  26. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    Why is anybody surprised at Latta outing himself as a stinking leftie?

    Just think how long he has been telling you how to parent your own kids. His credentials for being a pinko are outstanding, he thinks he can run your life far better than you can.

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  27. Lance (2,614 comments) says:

    Hold on, a Hone Harawera type, a professor speak for all Israeli’s ?

    I don’t think so.
    An aspect of life in Israel is free and open debate (unlike ALL the countries around them). Raging debates are common as are peace protests complete with banners etc.
    They want the rockets and constant terrorist attacks to end, some are frustrated and/or grieving and say things they shouldn’t.

    The Israelis would never allow concentration camps, there would be a immediate civil war if it were tried. So posting this as though this is the latest evil plot the evil Joo’s are up to is utter crap.
    For example most of the Israelis I knew thought Ariel Sharon was a warmongering asshole. But they also really really didn’t like being the constant targets of terrorists either.

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  28. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    campit (467 comments) says:
    he doesn’t say “concentration camp” he says concentrate them on the border until destinations for their emigration are found (Aotearoa?); separate them from the tunnels so they can blow them up and destroy rocket firing positions. He is saying kick them out of the territory. It is a next worst suggestion.

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  29. Slipster (135 comments) says:

    Griff 8:18 – “Sun wind and water are about to replace oil and coal.”

    In truth?!?
    Well, history says otherwise. It was first coal and then oil that replaced wind-driven sailing ships; water & windmills. Todays’s hydro plants are the only exception today and those are very limited for the obvious natural reasons.

    To dream of reverting once again to technologies of yesteryear isn’t progress, it’s retrograde in the extreme.

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  30. EAD (921 comments) says:

    @ flipper,

    I often disagree with hj but on this he does have a point. One of my advisers is a brokerage company called Tullett Prebon. I’ve attached a link to two pdfs I received from their Global Head of Research, Dr Tim Morgan a few years back about the limits of exponential growth in confined systems:

    http://www.tullettprebon.com/Documents/strategyinsights/tp0510_TPSI_report_005_LR.pdf
    http://www.tullettprebon.com/Documents/strategyinsights/tp0610d_tpsi_006.pdf

    They are fascinating reads that combines maths, physics, human folly and history. It basically views the economy as an energy equation that is running into the problem of an exponentially growing population vs. an at best linear return on energy (roe). The only way I see out of our slowly approaching crisis, as far as I can see, is to massively revalue Gold to the extreme upside, re-capitalise the world money systems and off we go again, paying for oil with revalued gold.

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  31. Griff (7,212 comments) says:

    Strong growth for renewables expected through to 2030
    http://about.bnef.com/press-releases/strong-

    growth-for-renewables-expected-through-to-2030/
    Improvements in cost-competitiveness means that renewables will account for between 69% and 74% of new power capacity added by 2030 worldwide, despite current difficult market conditions

    London and New York, 22 April 2013 – New research by analysts at Bloomberg New Energy Finance show that annual investment in new renewable power capacity is set to rise by anywhere from two and a half times to more than four and a half times between now and 2030. The likeliest scenario implies a jump of 230%, to $630bn per year by 2030, driven by further improvements in the cost-competitiveness of wind and solar technologies relative to fossil fuel alternatives, as well as an increase in the roll-out of non-intermittent clean energy sources like hydro, geothermal and biomass.

    Solar power or even wind electrical generation are not the same as using a water wheel to run the mill.

    times change.

    Oil coal and gas are merely stored solar energy.
    They are also a finite resource.

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  32. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    he doesn’t say “concentration camp” he says concentrate them on the border until destinations for their emigration are found

    Temporary concentration camp, them.

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  33. flipper (3,922 comments) says:

    Oh dear….

    Campit et al are at it again. As a sensible commenter has observed this morning, little Joseph, kilo for kilo the nastiest bit of human excrement to exist in Germany, would be proud of you.

    Yesterday, Outside The Beltway distributed a paper on media coverage of various Middle East conflicts, including Gaza…

    The introductory stanza reads..

    *** ” Outside The Beltway, as a group, has not formulated a view on the ultimate responsibility for the various, current, Middle East conflicts.

    We abhor the loss of life resulting from conflict. Regrettably, some of the current conflicts, and their resulting casualties, are simply a consequence of long past intransigence on the part of one party or another, while some are clearly attributable to religious fanaticism, or both. Horrific past events are also bearing on the attitude of participants.

    “The first casualty when war comes is truth.” So, according to most sources, said US Senator Hiram Warren Johnson in 1918 – apparently a reference to the US Civil War.

    “So what are we, in the West, being told? Is it objective “truth”?

    “We have been worrying over the quality, and objectivity of news reporting from all parts of the Middle East ( Libya, Egypt, Syria, Israel, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Gaza), We are also concerned by off-site, “knee-jerk reactions”, by the usual suspects, and by the pejorative language used by news producers, and their presenters.

    “That point made, we do not expect the leopard to change spots midstream, so to speak. But we thought that the following 40 inconvenient questions, albeit that they relate to Gaza (but might also, properly, be asked in respect of other conflicts), and have been developed mainly for US news organisations, might usefully be put to news editors, producers and “reporters” in all Western countries:

    “EYELESS IN GAZA: 40 [Edit: Inconvenient ] QUESTIONS FOR THE MEDIA

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/08/eyeless-in-gaza-40-questions-for-the-media.php

    “Professor David Bernstein posts the “40 questions for the international media in Gaza” posed by Saul O. at Harry’s Place. Professor Bernstein writes for the Volokh Conspiracy, now hosted by the Washington Post. The questions posted by Bernstein are properly addressed to the Washington Post itself, as well as to the Wall Street Journal, FOX News and CNN [Edit- , and] the rest of the American media [EDIT – the BBC, ABC, Channel 9, TVNZ , TV3, Radio NZ, and Fairfax] .

    “In the case of the Washington Post, the questions would be addressed to Sudarsan Raghavan et al. In the case of the Journal, the questions would be addressed to Nick Casey and Tamer El-Ghobashy. At FOX News they would be addressed to Conor Powell. At CNN they would be addressed to Karl Penhaul. Each of these gentlemen reports from Gaza. But the questions apply equally to the Post’s and the Journal’s editors and the anchors/producers/management of CNN and FOX. They are all aware of the facts and the issues and, so far as I am aware, have said nothing, as though there is no issue. …..”

    Go to the link for the 40 inconvenient questions.

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  34. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    @ flipper
    “the stone age didn’t end because they ran out of stone; the oil age won’t end because they run out of oil”

    Are non conventional sources of fossil fuels a step up or step down?

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  35. kowtow (8,114 comments) says:

    Population and migration is a pressing issue.

    Amazing how little real media attention is given to the wests’ southern borders.The US is facing a border crisis as is Europe.Ho hum nothing to see here.

    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/foreign/04-Aug-2014/italian-navy-rescues-2-700-immigrants-recover-two-bodies

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  36. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    News and comment about leaked emails from Kelvin Davis’ campaign and his response on Facebook has been all over social media – with one notable except, Labour’s main blog outlet, The Standard. There was no mention on this at all until a few minutes ago, and what’s been posted isn’t pretty.

    Michael Nolan
    5 August 2014 at 8:40 am
    Okay so I am trying to stay positive, and it has been great to see so many of the MPs and members starting to stick to the positive message. But can someone please punch Kelvin Davis in the throat so he cannot talk until election day? Us members on the doorsteps trying to convince the people we have a positive message are getting pretty fucking sick of self-centered MPs contradicting that.

    That doesn’t sound very positive either.

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  37. Gulag1917 (851 comments) says:

    The whole gospel of Karl Marx can be summed up in a single sentence: Hate the man who is better off than you are. Never under any circumstances admit that his success may be due to his own efforts, to the productive contribution he has made to the whole community. Always attribute his success to the exploitation, the cheating, the more or less open robbery of others. Never under any circumstances admit that your own failure may be owing to your own weakness, or that the failure of anyone else may be due to his own defects – his laziness, incompetence, improvidence, or stupidity.
    William L. Anderson

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  38. Slipster (135 comments) says:

    @Campit, 8:01

    When you post the above drivel, remember – Palestinian money you get paid for that not only smell, they stink. Stink of the innocent blood shed by those terrorists. Since you clearly have no qualms about that, consider the fact that you are on their hit list too. Unless of course, you are one of them yourself. So what is it that you are – a bought traitor/useful idiot or a real terror-cell member?

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  39. wreck1080 (3,853 comments) says:

    “Key says the Govt would crack down if the pace of foreigners’ farm-buying quickened.”

    ha ha now key is xenophobic.

    Just how much land is the difference between OK and xenophobia / racism accusations?

    Key is trying to have it both ways.

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  40. Judith (8,531 comments) says:

    duggledog (1,371 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 8:05 am

    How can National continue to allow TVNZ to be a mouthpiece for the likes of Latta?

    Maybe National are not into controlling the media for their own means, but are happy to allow discussion to take place, confident in knowing they have the policies etc to demonstrate that even if there are problems, they are doing something about it.

    Perhaps they even encourage the discussion, because it opens up the debate that has been simmering away for sometime.

    Also, I don’t think National are stupid enough to close down the discussion/media coverage, because what they would get in return if they tried, would be even more damning than anything Latta could say about them.

    This is a free country, people can say whatever they like regarding issues they see are real – others won’t fall for it, unless they can also assimilate with those opinions. Trying to control that would be the end for any government in NZ.

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  41. Nookin (3,253 comments) says:

    A reasoned view

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11303857

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  42. Maggy Wassilieff (313 comments) says:

    @hj; @EAD: limits to growth
    @ Griff: Ebola

    The usual biological solution …… seems to be just on the horizon.

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  43. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Re: 40 inconvenient questions (mostly about Hamas):

    Link

    It’s not about Hamas vs Israel, it’s about the US-Zionist alliance vs the Palestinians and other middle eastern people.

    “Politically speaking, Islamic fundamentalists were sometimes regarded as useful to Israel, because they had conflicts with the secular supporters of the PLO. Violence between the two groups erupted occasionally on West Bank university campuses. Israeli military governor of the Gaza Strip, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, once told me how he had financed the Islamic movement as a counterweight to the PLO and the Communists. ‘The Israeli Government gave me a budget and the military government gives to the mosques,’ he said.”

    “And beginning in 1967 through the late 1980s, Israel helped the Muslim Brotherhood establish itself in the occupied territories. It assisted Ahmed Yassin, the leader of the Brotherhood, in creating Hamas, betting that its Islamist character would weaken the PLO.”

    “.. it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul.” ~ Zbigniew Brzezinski

    “To paraphrase Edmonds: though the collusion with radical Islam had been going on for decades, it wasn’t until 1996 that a formal decision was made by NATO to abandon their previous secret relationship with neo-Fascists and arch-Nationalists and replace them with Islamists.”

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  44. Nookin (3,253 comments) says:

    Judith

    Sometimes, the government just can’t win. Yesterday, Jack slammed TVNZ for being the mouthpiece of the government — referring to it as the State Broadcaster.

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  45. dime (9,788 comments) says:

    “The unvarnished truth is that we are selling a primary source of wealth to a foreign Communist government.”

    What is this we shit?

    The owner is selling their land for the highest price available. Sweet.

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  46. EAD (921 comments) says:

    This is a very dangerous trend which brain dead politicians from both sides of politics are pursuing. They even support the sale of FERTILE FREEHOLD FARMING LAND TO FOREIGN STATE OWNED COMPANIES. That means foreign governments.

    The response from Key saying “the Govt would crack down if the pace of foreigners’ farm-buying quickened”, is a statement which belies the fact that the figures would be cooked to hide the truth and that both sides of politics are addicted to flogging off the nation to foreigners.

    Talk about cognitive dissonance – if selling farmland to foreign governments is such a good thing then why do you need to “crack down on it” ?

    A word of warning to all who believe that this is ok: the Chinese Government do not surrender land they have bought, ever. You only need to look at the disputed islands off Japan to understand that. And when you sell off prime residential real estate and food producing land which will service the offshore Chinese population you have to realise that we are potentially setting our descendants up for war with China. What a disgrace our Politicians are: Political expedience and living beyond our means is more important than those who come after us.

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  47. dime (9,788 comments) says:

    Front page of the herald has an article on Jamie whyte and his latest mistake…

    Apparently he didn’t know about some new trough set up for Maoris. Oh, and the odd person from other races but not really.

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  48. KiwiGreg (3,246 comments) says:

    @EAD are you worried they will dig up the land and move it? Set up a sovereign state in New Zealand and not comply with our laws? Ignore our immigration laws and send millions of Chinese to farm it? It’s not “your” land today and wont be tomorrow, what exactly is your beef?

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  49. KiwiGreg (3,246 comments) says:

    @dime the one thing we know Whanau Ora doesn’t do is change the awful stats about maori.

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  50. Other_Andy (2,558 comments) says:

    flipper says at 8:48 am

    To be honest Flipper, I think most journalists have NO (Zero, Nil, Nada) integrity and couldn’t give a sh!t.
    This also counts for the New Zealand armchair warriors such as Campbell, McRoberts and even Paul Henry.
    I don’t think Paul Henry is so thick (unlike Campbell) that he actually believes the cr@p Janika ter Ellen reads out every night about Gaza.
    However, while the Hamas propaganda is being read out he just sits there without even raising an eyebrow.
    He might as well be waving a Hamas flag while Janika reads….

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  51. Judith (8,531 comments) says:

    Gulag1917 (684 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 8:52 am
    The whole gospel of Karl Marx can be summed up in a single sentence: Hate the man who is better off than you are.

    Where exactly in Marx’s or even Engels writing does it say anything of the sort?

    Karl Marx was himself born into a wealthy family, he did not despise wealth, he despised capitalism, due to its prominent aspect of exploitation and its ‘commodity fetishism’. Capitalism, according to Marx was chaotic and disorganised – I guess he was right about that, if nothing else.

    It was the way some wealthy made their money he disliked, not the actual wealth itself.

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  52. dime (9,788 comments) says:

    Kiwigreg – obviously it’s not funded well enough..

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  53. EAD (921 comments) says:

    @ dime 8.58am

    The 1st class I did at university talked about Land, Labour & Capital…How you need all three to produce anything that others may want to buy – and that’s how you used to create wealth.

    Simple 5th form economics question: How can you run down all your industries, load your once exemplary agriculture sector up with eye-watering debt (what the creation of Fonterra did) and import nearly everything you consume while shrinking your overseas assets, increasing your public borrowing to pay for a Welfare and Client State that you cannot afford and joining a trading community (TPP) which constantly sells more to you than you than it buys from you?

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  54. dime (9,788 comments) says:

    “FERTILE FREEHOLD FARMING LAND TO FOREIGN STATE OWNED COMPANIES.”

    Oh the horror! The owner got top dollar! It’s bit right.

    Ead aka hater of property rights, in a perfect world the land would stay in nz owned hands. But no one stumped up the cash.

    Jk is right to say they would look at it if all of a sudden there was some weird land grab by overseas peeps. At that point you could make a case that property rights are usurped by the general good *shudder*

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  55. dime (9,788 comments) says:

    EAD – what gives you the right to say who I can sell my land to?

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  56. Judith (8,531 comments) says:

    @ dime

    The government already has the right to say who land can be sold to under some circumstances. Some people are just requesting that the rules be made a little tighter than they already are. It is not a NEW thing that is being suggested – there are already limitations.

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  57. Other_Andy (2,558 comments) says:

    How to explode yet another Fairfax warming scare with just five minutes of checking

    By Andrew Bolt

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/how_to_explode_yet_another_fairfax_warming_scare_with_just_five_minutes_of_/

    As I said above, most journalists are lazy, have no integrity and file their pieces without even checking the facts.
    As long as it follows the narrative.

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  58. Gulag1917 (851 comments) says:

    Judith – Marxism is envy in camouflage, explains the hatred of the extreme left.

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  59. dime (9,788 comments) says:

    Judith – ah ok, so we have 90% freedom when selling? What does that matter if we drop it to 50%? Shit happens eh

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  60. EAD (921 comments) says:

    @ Kiwigreg

    My concern stems from my understanding of what wealth really is – land is the source of PRIMARY wealth. Rich soils, concentrated ores, thick seams of coal near to the surface, oil, running water, and abundant fisheries are all examples of primary wealth. Today we might call this our natural resource base but once upon a time owning it was the literal difference between a life of ease and a life of hardship.

    SECONDARY wealth is what we make or transform from primary wealth. Ore is transformed into steel, abundant fisheries lead to fish on the table, soil becomes food in the store, and trees become lumber.

    The final layer, TERTIARY wealth, is all the paper abstractions that we layer upon the first two sources of wealth. Derivatives, stocks, bonds and every other paper vehicle you can think of is a form of tertiary wealth. Tertiary wealth is a claim on the other two forms. But that’s all it is. Tertiary wealth is a claim on sources of wealth, not a source of wealth itself.

    The above distinctions are vital – we have sold to a communist government, in perpetuity, a source of primary wealth in exchange for some pieces of paper (dollars)

    Now if you’re following what is happening around the world, the Chinese are stockpiling gold. http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2012/01/29/why-are-the-chinese-buying-record-quantities-of-gold/
    http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2014/1/2_China_Accelerates_The_Push_For_Its_Citizens_To_Buy_Gold.html

    Now you see, the Chinese are smart – they understand what wealth is and are playing a long term game. Eventually they will control large quantities of the worlds farms, mines, fisheries and Gold while the West will have lots of debt and lots of paper and lots of beneficiaries but not much wealth nor the ability to create wealth.

    The Chinese will then say if you want anything of what we produce, you must pay us in real money (gold). How are we going to earn that gold if large chunks of our PRIMARY wealth (farmland) is in foreign hands?

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  61. Judith (8,531 comments) says:

    @ Nookin (3,051 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 8:56 am

    I wonder what an election campaign would be like if the media were forbidden to publish anything political during that period? People would have to get off their butts, go to meetings, and actually start thinking for themselves.

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  62. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    A certifiable gold bugger.

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  63. MT_Tinman (3,092 comments) says:

    Griff (6,867 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 8:18 am
    You remember about steam, oil,, replacing manpower,.

    Sun wind and water are about to replace oil and coal.

    funny how flips and many others can not except that progression is inevitable.

    But with out oil and coal ?

    yip without horses even.

    Great stuff.

    How do you capture, store and use sun and wind without oil and coal?

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  64. EAD (921 comments) says:

    A certifiable reader of history and finance:

    “Gold is the money of kings;
    silver is the money of gentlemen;
    barter is the money of peasants;
    but debt is the money of slaves.”

    http://www.nowandfutures.com/gold_related_quotes.html

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  65. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    Lochinver station sale funds (non tradeables) population growth:

    Spanning 220ha, the development will take 15 years and is expected to create more than 8000 jobs. It will include warehouses, factories and other commercial/industrial buildings on the 360ha property.

    The project began as a way of providing an industrial buffer around the quarry’s traffic routes but Franklin said he also believed Auckland’s industry would increasingly move south.

    ‘‘I’d imagine that this is going to be the next generation of growth in Auckland.

    ‘‘I mean, Pukekohe’s going to be a satellite city of Auckland and that’s going to have another 50,000 people there.

    ‘‘Waikato is moving up towards Auckland, you’ve got the Pokeno subdivision now. Pokeno is on the other side of the Bombays, so that’s another 5km out from Drury.’’

    Franklin said Drury was also attractive as a distribution hub because of its central position within the ‘‘golden triangle’’ of Hamilton, Auckland and Tauranga. He had also been fielding calls from people interested in housing developments there.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/10345868/Lochinver-Station-sale-to-fund-quarry-operations

    In BNZ Chief Economist Tony Alexander’s weekly overview, Auckland house prices are set to move upwards nicely. Here are his 19 reasons why:
     

    3. The government is explicitly aiming to grow Auckland’s population as a means of achieving “agglomeration” benefits for economic growth which accrue from high interaction amongst economic players.

    http://www.davidwhitburn.com/blogs/auckland-house-prices-to-rise-over-10-in-2013/

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  66. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    People would have to get off their butts, go to meetings, and actually start thinking for themselves.

    I doubt that would happen any more than it does now. Most people are more interested in anything but politics.

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  67. Judith (8,531 comments) says:

    @ Gulag1917 (685 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 9:21 am

    Yes, nah, maybe?

    I learned all that stuff more than 20 years ago in Sociology 101, but to be honest, I doubt very many people, left or right, actually know what marxist theory even is, let alone follow it. People have some very weird ideas about communism, most of them very wrong, or at least skewed.

    They may embrace some of the same or similar principles, quite by error, not even realising where their beliefs were founded, but I don’t think that many people go so far as to analyse the foundations of their mindset, on either side left or right wing.

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  68. Other_Andy (2,558 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman says:

    “How do you capture, store and use sun and wind without oil and coal?”

    Using hydro.
    Using access electricity generated (Very inefficiently, environmentally unfriendly and costly!) to pump water behind hydro dams.
    But even then there are caveats………that only works if there is not enough hydro.
    And yes, you still need oil to build and maintain the facilities.

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  69. EAD (921 comments) says:

    We are on the road to serfdom:

    http://detlevschlichter.com/2012/10/we-are-on-the-road-to-serfdom/

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  70. MT_Tinman (3,092 comments) says:

    EAD (655 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 9:10 am

    The 1st class I did at university talked about Land, Labour & Capital…How you need all three to produce anything that others may want to buy – and that’s how you used to create wealth.

    If you had gone back to the second class you would (or should) have learnt that the ownership of production facilities doesn’t matter as long as the legislator has control over the use of those facilities.

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  71. flipper (3,922 comments) says:

    For those that wish to control others property, ponder this:

    *** ”
    Property rights

    “Arguably the most forgotten of all human rights is property.

    Of all the forgotten freedoms I talk about, property rights appears to be the one that attracts the most response. Yet it should be utterly uncontroversial. Article 17 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that ‘everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others’ and ‘no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property’.

    “Property rights are not just about physical property ……….
    “Property rights underpin attracting foreign investment ….…..
    However, the biggest frontiers around the full realisation of property are in the personal -domain. If people own their own bodies then what role is there for government to tell them what they can do with it? ” – Tim Wilson, Commissioiner for Humanj Rioghts, the Commionbwqesalthy of Austraslioas. Wellington, July 1,m 2014

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  72. flipper (3,922 comments) says:

    CORRECTION

    For those that wish to control others property, ponder this:

    *** ”
    Property rights

    “Arguably the most forgotten of all human rights is property.

    Of all the forgotten freedoms I talk about, property rights appears to be the one that attracts the most response. Yet it should be utterly uncontroversial. Article 17 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that ‘everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others’ and ‘no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property’.

    “Property rights are not just about physical property ……….
    “Property rights underpin attracting foreign investment ….…..
    However, the biggest frontiers around the full realisation of property are in the personal -domain. If people own their own bodies then what role is there for government to tell them what they can do with it? ” – Tim Wilson, Commissioner for Human Rights, the Commonwealth of Australia. Wellington, July 1, 2014

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  73. EAD (921 comments) says:

    For all those banging on about property rights…….

    when did a Communist Government last give a flying fcuk about private property rights?

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  74. Judith (8,531 comments) says:

    @ dime (9,485 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 9:22 am

    I didn’t say it didn’t matter Dime, just that restrictions already exist.

    It is a tough one – I am very patriotic, I love New Zealand, and headlines that state we could be tenants in our own country, are pretty scary to me. I don’t want NZ to be an ‘island’ off Australia, or a province of China, or another state of the US, or any other country. I believe that Kiwis are a unique breed that have the ability to make it in the world arena, even at a limited capacity, without marrying us and selling our souls (the land).

    Some of us have historical links to the land. My great-grandfather purchased a great deal of it – approx. one third of that is still in the family. The thought of it being sold to other New Zealanders makes me feel uneasy, the thought of it being sold to another country terrifies me, because I believe once gone, it will never ‘come back’. My heritage is tied up in that land. I look at the photos of it, from before some of it was cleared, and it grounds me – there is a certain amount of pride in having those ties. They only way I would ever agree to its sale, was if the lives of my loved ones depended on it. Fortunately simply having that land means that should never happen, because it provides a means to cover most eventualities.

    I think this issue is tied to other similar aspects of just how New Zealanders see this country. People can call it racist or whatever they want, but I think a lot of Kiwis have an inherent mistrust of some foreigners, and do not want to see the ownership of our land, and what it produces leave our shores unless Kiwis receive the full benefit of that happening.

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  75. MT_Tinman (3,092 comments) says:

    Other_Andy (2,350 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 9:34 am

    “How do you capture, store and use sun and wind without oil and coal?”

    Using hydro.
    Using access electricity generated (Very inefficiently, environmentally unfriendly and costly!) to pump water behind hydro dams.
    But even then there are caveats………that only works if there is not enough hydro.

    Simple physics (the only type I know) suggests that is not a goer either – you create less energy than you use – unless of course you have created a perpetual motion machine ;-) .

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  76. G152 (264 comments) says:

    Labor sold Poronui Station to Americans.
    How can they now refuse to accept the sale of Lochinver to the Chinese ?

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  77. calendar girl (1,213 comments) says:

    doggone7 @ 8:15 am – “Next question: Why shouldn’t TVNZ be the mouthpiece for the likes of Latta when it is already the mouthpiece of misleading and lying Ministers?”

    Such a comparison between Latta and Government Ministers is nonsense, and I think you know that. It’s obvious to viewers that the Ministers are campaigning for re-election of the National-lead Government. The TV channel also presents opposing political views from prominent Opposition politicians (but you choose to ignore that inconvenient fact). As far as we know, neither Government nor Opposition politicians have been commissioned (i.e. paid) by TVNZ to provide channel content, and TVNZ could tilt their political playing-field only by selective editorial omission of available material.

    But Nigel Latta? For whom is Latta a “mouthpiece” (your word, not mine)? Here are a few clues to help you work through to a conclusion.

    Why does the Latta series appear in the very run-up to the General Election?
    Is it publicly-funded? If so, have TVNZ / NZonAir:
    (a) facilitated a comparable series presenting rebuttal or opposing points of view?
    (b) arranged to broadcast such a series at comparable times before the Election?
    (b) played any role in determining the content or flavour of the Latta series?

    You can do a lot better than conclude that TVNZ is a pre-Election “mouthpiece” for Government Ministers, but it’s good for a laugh in the silly season.

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  78. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    flipper (3,608 comments) says:

    “When the sacredness of property is talked of, it should always be remembered that any such sacredness does not belong in the same degree to landed property. No man made the land: it is the inheritance of the whole species.”

    “The land of Ireland, the land of every country, belongs to the people of that country.”

    John Stuart Mill

    There is an economic value to being the member of a nation. One of the benefits is the ability to keep the price of land linked to the fundamentals of the local economy.

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  79. Yvette (2,761 comments) says:

    Internet MANA?
    Will the true mana of Maori, in the memory of the likes of the 28th Maori Battalion, allow the biggest con in New Zealand’s political history, their special Maori-reserved Electorate of Te Tai Tokerau to be bought by a pakeha German fraudster with a 72-page Indictment and other charges issued against him?

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  80. stephieboy (2,625 comments) says:

    EAD, let me see your Detlev Schlitcher who claims we are on the Road to Serfdom is a fan of the Gold Standard, Austrian and Miser Institute , a little paranoid about the Federal Reserve and central banks.?
    A conspiracy theorist by chance ?
    He himself doesn’t seem to be enslaved or like a serf or is he in fact another paleolithic libertarian paranoid types.?

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  81. Ross12 (1,367 comments) says:

    It looks like Labour just pissed off a lot of farmers , property investors and probably a few home owners.

    https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/24630454/labour-gets-tough-on-land-sales/

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  82. SGA (982 comments) says:

    KiwiGreg at 9:02 am

    @EAD are you worried they will dig up the land and move it? Set up a sovereign state in XXXX and not comply with our laws? Ignore our immigration laws and send millions of XXXXX to farm it?

    Reading this, I wondered how often such things have been discussed throughout history?

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  83. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    @ Ross12

    One of the big divides in this country is between land owners and non landowners and the benefits immigrants and off-shore buyers bring, so it is good to see policy focusing on real issues.

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  84. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    @EAD are you worried they will dig up the land and move it? Set up a sovereign state in XXXX and not comply with our laws? Ignore our immigration laws and send millions of XXXXX to farm it?
    ………..
    it worked for Israel.

    Also as has been pointed out NZ Farm holdings is registered as a NZ person is owned 100% by a Chinese property magnate; has 76 land titles.

    And the Chinese are coming it is written. You can’t have too much of a good thing (plus the drag of a welfare state will be out the window). Property rights will be secure.

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  85. jcuk (663 comments) says:

    Sun wind and water are about to replace oil and coal

    The foolishness of the purists is so funny and reoccurs with regular frequency in discourse such as here.

    MELD, a word I learnt from Canasta, but its other use is the answer …. somebody suggests the day of the sailing ship, those beautiful square riggers, was gone and completely ignores the modern sailing vessel which also has a motor for when the wind is coming from the wrong direction or not at all.

    So with a bit of everything it is workable, each being used appropriately, wind when it blows, sun when it shines, and water as back-up when it neither shines or blows …. that transport maybe a bit slower, certainly land transport will be, just means that we will have to change from the “just in time” approach which probably was a false path given the likely future.

    The stick in the muds will be in the mud while those with brains will rise in the new environment.

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  86. Griff (7,212 comments) says:

    Smart grid
    Domestic demand can easily be changed significantly by just having appliances run only when demand for electricity is low or generation is high.
    Hydro for nz at least can handle most background demand .
    When wind solar generation increases turn down the tap for hydro or geothermal generation
    Along with a distributed grid
    To fit a new house with a solar electricity sufficient to supply its over all need for energy is now cost positive in nz.
    It is getting cheaper at a rate of around 7%. It will become a common addition for a new build at an ever increasing rate. with a switch to electric cars storage batteries will become cheaper and using your car to buffer personal demand is possible now.
    Add more wind power into the mix with our maritime climate and we can stop using hydrocarbons reasonably efficiently and quickly in this country.
    Goods Transport is the hard problem particularly for nz with the tyranny of distance for our exports being more of a problem as world use of hydrocarbons declines.

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  87. Ross12 (1,367 comments) says:

    hj @10.12am

    This is just ” knee jerk reaction” politics. If Cunliffe is going to do this then he should be genuine and come out against all foreign investment.

    The vendors of Lochinver Station had the property on the market for a lengthy period in an open sale situation ( it wasn’t a behind the scenes deal). Why haven’t all those concerned about it organised the purchase themselves –there are all sorts of ways it could have been done ?

    Did it occur to anyone that have a vertically integrated Chinese owned dairy operation ( owned by a Chinese “heavy weight” business) might be a good thing for NZ. If the Chinese Govt decided, for whatever reason in the future, to put a few import hurdles in place for dairy products then having a significant Chinese owned operation being affected, NZ would have some significant help in the lobbying effort to stop any changes. ( there would also be help from the shareholders of Synlait )

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  88. Jack5 (5,005 comments) says:

    MT Tinman posted at 9.42:

    the ownership of production facilities doesn’t matter as long as the legislator has control over the use of those facilities.

    Ah! The economic purists speak. Strange how countries with more pragmatic economic policies have surged ahead of the purist free-market, free-trade countries. The secret seems to be talk free trade, talk free markets, then do your damnest to exploit those who practise these policies.

    The world’s two biggest banks are now Chinese, four of the world’s top ten banks are Chinese, another of the top 10 is German, and another two are Japanese. That is 70 per cent of the world’s top banks reflect the surging economic power of country’s whose pragmatic economic policies are heresy to Anglo-Saxon economic theorists.

    China doesn’t allow foreigners to buy land in China, and has pretty much blocked all foreign participation in its most strategic industry, steel. Germany and Japan bounced back from World War 2 with pragmatic rather than purist economic policies. This notably included favouring local ownership.

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  89. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    “@EAD are you worried they will dig up the land and move it? Set up a sovereign state in XXXX and not comply with our laws? Ignore our immigration laws and send millions of XXXXX to farm it?”

    it worked for Israel.

    At what cost? The state of Israel has no divine right to land, and can expect no divine protection if world opinion turns against them.

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  90. Lance (2,614 comments) says:

    @Griff
    You are correct that this is the way of the future and there is some movement towards this including big players but it is not easy to load shift or demand side manage appliances with existing technology.
    As I said it is being worked on ( I do have working knowledge of this technology) but most consumers would throw a wobbly if they can’t cook or dry their clothes when they want to.
    The entire foundations of demandside needs to be build from the ground up over a generation (no pun intended).

    There are some big hurdles to overcome like as more power is generated and consumed internally in the home then the power grid is a fixed cost that cannot be ignored. Therefore line charges will be come prohibitive if this is not carefully strategised.

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  91. hj (6,794 comments) says:

    Did it occur to anyone that have a vertically integrated Chinese owned dairy operation ( owned by a Chinese “heavy weight” business) might be a good thing for NZ.
    …….
    The Vestey Model was very good for the Vesteys. It doesn’t sound good if access to Chinese markets depends on Chinese ownership of farmland (and immigration)?

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  92. flipper (3,922 comments) says:

    Mill, John Stuart (1806-1873),British philosopher, economist. Moral and political theorist……..

    Well, we are all, as a nation, somewhat better educated than when Mill opined, though his seminal On Liberty remains a classic.

    In short, those among us who resent endless lectures on migration, population, and property ownership, can and do think for themselves. We make better decisions than the sheep and cattle herded by hj et al.

    But hj, why don’t you take your “knowledge” and “skills” to a nation that has REAL migration problems. You would know the situation, and be able to offer solutions (no doubt quoting SOB’sW), in the USofA somewhat better than the likes Charles Krauthammer, who (on Fox) just delivered a seminal piece on US immigration problems.
    Go help them hj. :-)

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  93. Griff (7,212 comments) says:

    Once upon a time we expected our domestic appliances to last for a generation.
    now we are lucky if they last ten years
    I just replaced the fridge stove and freezer in an almost ten years old house
    Who has a crt tv now ?
    The same will happen for our domestic appliances lance
    You fridge and freezer is the most inefficient cost at present once water is by heat pump or direct from solar.
    Just doubling the insulation will half the energy cost and also allow longer between cooling cycles allowing more demand orientated usage.
    I believe that integration of domestic energy using appliances is un untapped source of efficiency gains as yet
    We pump heat from our fridges and do the same to heat our homes and our water in stand alone systems they could be combined so we maximize the efficiency of the over all system.
    Lance you have said in the past solar was not changing in cost of installation does that still hold true ?

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  94. david (2,570 comments) says:

    Anyone thinking that Lochinver is a ready candidate to convert to dairying should do some basic research into plant and animal husbandry. Factors such as altitude and thus temperature significantly affect growing season and thence productivity. Agronomists rank the property as being OK as dairy run-off but it is not rated as a dairy platform. Also milk would be well travelled to get to a processing facility other than the Reporoa dryer which Fonterra use as one of their peak processing milk gobblers or Lichfield cheese plant. I’m not aware of Shanghai Pengxuin (spp?) building a factory in the area .

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  95. Paulus (2,589 comments) says:

    I have been reading recently regarding Switzerland having had Referenda, both Cantonal and National, for 150 years so it must work.

    I believe that only Swiss Citizens have the right to vote here.
    And to obtain Swiss Citizenship for an outsider is virtually impossible.

    Example, 30 years ago I was approached by a major overseas Swiss client with a request as follows – His daughter was getting engaged to a New Zealand man. When married he could get Swiss citizenship.
    Would I please get a Private Investigator to investigate and report on the man’s family and background, for which he will pay the costs.
    Being usual Swiss he was concerned in tainting the citizenship. I declined the request. Caveat – I worked for a major Swiss Company for 8 years, so am familiar with their unusual requests.

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  96. lilman (948 comments) says:

    I own a 200 cow Dairy Farm -(I wish)

    I decide after 60 years in the industry to sell and advertise the property.

    I get 4 offers ,1 offer is $400,000 dollars higher but it is from outside New Zealand,should I take it?

    1.I have over 60 years invested in that property
    2.It is basically my retirement fund.
    3.I have paid tax all my life.
    4.No-one was there to help me on the shitty days,or pay tax or pay back the bank.
    5.I and my wife will hopefully live for along time.

    What should I do?

    Why should I not accept the highest offer?

    Why dont the Government ,ie you as the taxpayer make up the shortfall?

    Why after all those years of making decisions as a couple,my wife and I MUST listen to people who were never there before but MUST now be heard.

    Take the money and retire I say,after all the farmer worked long and hard for it ,not the commentators.

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  97. Griff (7,212 comments) says:

    Hj
    You seem to have a semi literate dolphin stalking you .
    One who thinks usa is comparable to nz for immigration
    unfortunately we in New Zealand have one of the highest if not the highest rate of population change in the world.
    More of us are born offshore than almost# any where else in the world.
    #Luxemburg is higher

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  98. flipper (3,922 comments) says:

    A CASE MADE…. BUT WILL THE NZ MEDIA EXPOSE THE HAMAS LIE?

    The Simon Weisenthal Centre is know for its activism in support of Jews, world wide, but post particular.

    But it also has a good reputation for honesty and accuracy…. SO…
    This just in by email: (enewsletter@wiesenthal.com)

    BREAKING: IDF Captures Hamas Combat Manual Explaining Benefits of Human Shields
    SWC: “End double standard against Israel –
    hold Hamas accountable for crimes against Palestinians and Israelis”
    August 4, 2014

    A Hamas manual on “Urban Warfare” found by the Israeli Defense Forces makes it unmistakably clear that Hamas desires civilian casualties amongst its own people and encourages its fighters to engage in battles in civilian populated areas in order to draw an Israeli response.

    “Where is the U.N. Human Rights Council? Where is Amnesty International? Where is Human Rights Watch? Where is the international media and Middle East pundits. Where are all the lawfare experts? Here is ‘Exhibit A’ to indict Hamas for war crimes and crimes against humanity by placing the people of Gaza as human shields,” said Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, dean and founder and associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

    From the IDF Blog:

    IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on “Urban Warfare,” which belonged to the Shuja’iya Brigade of Hamas’ military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades. The manual explains how the civilian population can be used against IDF forces and reveals that Hamas knows the IDF is committed to minimizing harm to civilians.

    Throughout Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has continuously used the civilian population of Gaza as human shields. The discovery of a Hamas “urban warfare” manual by IDF forces reveals that Hamas’ callous use of the Gazan population was intentional and preplanned.

    This Hamas urban warfare manual exposes two truths: (1) The terror group knows full well that the IDF will do what it can to limit civilian casualties. (2) The terror group exploits these efforts by using civilians as human shields against advancing IDF forces.

    The Manual:

    In a portion entitled “Limiting the Use of Weapons,” the manual explains that:
    The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities. It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].
    Clearly Hamas knows the IDF will limit its use of weapons in order to avoid harming civilians, including refraining from using larger firepower to support for infantry.

    The manual goes on to explain that the “presence of civilians are pockets of resistance” that cause three major problems for advancing troops:
    (1) Problems with opening fire
    (2) Problems in controlling the civilian population during operations and afterward
    (3) Assurance of supplying medical care to civilians who need it
    Lastly, the manual discusses the benefits for Hamas when civilian homes are destroyed:
    The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens towards the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces[i.e. Hamas]).
    It is clear that Hamas actually desires the destruction of homes and civilian infrastructure, knowing it will increase hatred for the IDF and support their fighters.

    Why Shuja’iya is Important

    It is also of no small importance that this manual belongs to the Shuja’iya Brigade. The IDF fought a major battle in the neighborhood of Shuja’iya, which had been turned into a terrorist stronghold. The discovery of this manual suggests that the destruction in Shuja’iya was always part of Hamas’ plan.

    Please share this breaking news story with family and friends.

    Support the Work of the Simon Wiesenthal Center

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  99. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Yes, it’s pretty clear that Hamas is happy to accept heavy civilian casualties, and that Israel is more than willing to oblige them.

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  100. kowtow (8,114 comments) says:

    Interesting.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/how_even_lancet_and_obama_are_shielding_hamas/

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  101. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    A Hamas manual on “Urban Warfare” found by the Israeli Defense Forces makes it unmistakably clear that Hamas desires civilian casualties amongst its own people and encourages its fighters to engage in battles in civilian populated areas in order to draw an Israeli response.

    Yes, it appears that the agenda of Hamas is simply to provoke conflict rather than to achieve any workable solution to the situation in Gaza.
    Provoking conflict was also the apparent goal of the Zionists in the Lavon Affair. With the accounts of Zionist involvement in the formation of Hamas, the simplest explanation is that Hamas is simply a Zionist proxy.

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  102. Nukuleka (290 comments) says:

    James Dann has posted a highly emotive piece at The Standard about the alleged anger etc that ‘we’ the people of Christchurch are feeling about the National government. This man is delusional and I am angry that he purports to use the pronoun ‘we’ throughout his diatribe. He is certainly not speaking for me!

    Things are going well in Christchurch: the bulk of people are happy with the amount of money, time and commitment that the government has put into the rebuild and few care one jot that Ecan continues to be under the guidance of commissioners rather than the incompetent lot who were running things before.

    I am hoping that the predictions that Nicky Wagner will lose the Chch Central electorate to the geeky gay who is standing for the Labour Party are incorrect. I am hoping also that we get to see Nicky out and about not only in the bluer enclaves of the electorate but that she is brave enough to take the National Party message to the eastern part of the electorate as well. Would be good to see some door knocking going on too!

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  103. Other_Andy (2,558 comments) says:

    @Flipper

    If that manual is real, the media will do the following:
    1. Not report it.
    2. Declare it of no consequence in the same manner as our Hamas supporter above.
    3. Declare it fraudulent and smear the sources.

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  104. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    A different perspective on Gaza:
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/08/gaza_shelter_massacre_how_israel_could_have_killed_21_civilians_at_a_u_n.html

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  105. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Declare it of no consequence in the same manner as our Hamas supporter above.

    Who are you referring to, Other_Andy?

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  106. RightNow (6,961 comments) says:

    “the simplest explanation is that Hamas is simply a Zionist proxy.”
    Riiight, because who takes the Islamic goal of a global Caliphate seriously?
    If you want to be subject to Islamic law please emigrate to an Islamic country rather than be a useful idiot.
    Wiping the Jews from the face of the earth is not the end goal of Islam, it’s just a start. The real goal is to subject the entire world to Islamic law.

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  107. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Riiight, because who takes the Islamic goal of a global Caliphate seriously?

    If the objective of Hamas is to establish the Caliphate then their strategy is insane.

    Wiping the Jews from the face of the earth is not the end goal of Islam, it’s just a start.

    You don’t know what you are talking about.

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  108. flipper (3,922 comments) says:

    Other_Andy (2,351 comments) says:

    August 5th, 2014 at 12

    *****

    Yep so true Andy

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  109. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    ‘Wiping the Jews from the face of the earth is not the end goal of Islam, it’s just a start. The real goal is to subject the entire world to Islamic law’
    More paranoia – seems rampant today.

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  110. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    Haven’t various religions been trying to convert everyone to their own beliefs and laws since religion was invented.

    It’s interesting that early human history shows that neanderthals as well as homo sapiens developed burial rituals.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion

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  111. RightNow (6,961 comments) says:

    “If the objective of Hamas is to establish the Caliphate then their strategy is insane.”

    Hamas is just a pawn. They, and the entire population of Gaza, can be sacrificed as part of the long game.

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  112. RightNow (6,961 comments) says:

    “Haven’t various religions been trying to convert everyone to their own beliefs and laws since religion was invented”

    Yes. But how many of them in the present day are bloody-mindedly doggedly pursuing that goal through wholesale murder and violence?

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  113. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    We haven’t got enough space on the blog to list all of the violent crimes committed in the name of religion.

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  114. Lance (2,614 comments) says:

    @Griff
    Don’t recall ever saying the cost of Solar was not changing. I wouldn’t say that as I am in that industry.
    I might have said that some claims of value for money are outrageous and that all the different options need to be part of the solution.
    Yes we are replacing appliances but I do not know of many that support grid stability or demand side. I am not opposed to that and you seem to think I am a nay-sayer.
    I am not, I am designing equipment that will take demand side to another level.
    In the meantime poorly conceived notions about turning off/ modulating appliances that will not upset end users needs to be carefully considered. It was tried by GE and it flopped horribly. End users were massivly pissed off when they couldn’t dry their clothes exactly when they wanted.

    There are solutions (as I said) but they need to be integrated and someone has to pay for them. It costs a shit load of money to re-design an appliance to be grid friendly and the end user will generally (apart from a handful of enthusiasts) be reluctant to pay extra for it.

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  115. Other_Andy (2,558 comments) says:

    UglyTruth says:

    “Who are you referring to, Other_Andy?”

    MM

    He still refuses to accept (again with his ‘other perspective’ piece) that without Hamas firing thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians, breaking ceasefires, hiding weapons in schools, using hospitals for meetings, forcing civilians to act as human shields, digging a network of “terror tunnels”, pledging Israel’s destruction, broadcasting children programs urging the murder of Jews, and wasting millions on importing weapons and munitions there would be NO civilian casualties.

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  116. RightNow (6,961 comments) says:

    “We haven’t got enough space on the blog to list all of the violent crimes committed in the name of religion.”

    How about just in the last decade? Maybe the last year? The last month?

    No you’re right, even if we just went for the last week there’d still be more violent crimes committed by Islamists than you could list on this blog.

    Of course, they’re only crimes under our laws.

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  117. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Peter George,

    Religion isn’t an invention, it is the natural outcome of people thinking about their origin and history. Religious thought may or may not include the idea that promoting your world view is a worthy goal. Uniform belief systems are more of a feature of organized religious systems which typically incorporate political ambition into their worldview.

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  118. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Other_Andy
    “He started it” might run as an excuse in your world. In the real world, Israel’s grossly disproportionate response kills children, lots of children.

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  119. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    digging a network of “terror tunnels”

    Other_Andy, have you ever asked yourself why the Zionists seemed to be taken by surprise by these tunnels?

    There are around 20 companies that do ground penetrating radar in Israel, and they’ve known about Hezbollah tunnels since 2010.

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/general_debate_5_august_2014.html/comment-page-1#comment-1373097

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  120. Tookinator (220 comments) says:

    Labour not much better in the UK

    Ed Miliband branded ‘crass’ for not signing wreath for First World War commemoration

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/11010899/Ed-Miliband-branded-crass-for-not-signing-wreath-for-First-World-War-commemoration.html

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  121. kowtow (8,114 comments) says:

    We haven’t got enough space on the blog to list all of the violent crimes committed in the name of secular atheism.

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  122. graham (2,315 comments) says:

    Pete George:

    “Haven’t various religions been trying to convert everyone to their own beliefs and laws since religion was invented.”

    If by “religion” you mean ANYTHING that people are passionate about, then yes you’re correct.

    People who believe in climate change desperately try to convert and persuade those who don’t, convinced that the world is going to fry and we’re all going to drown unless everybody converts to their way of thinking, while those who think climate change is a hoax are trying hard to convince the politicians that carbon taxes are the biggest wrought ever.

    Those on the political left believe that the political right will deliver nothing but despair and heartache to anybody earning less than $100,000 and are desperate that we all convert and vote for their heroes, while those on the political right believe that a vote for the left is a sure-fire recipe for disaster if you run a business, own property, or want to make your way in the world without handouts, and will ultimately bankrupt the country.

    The people who follow the Green Party and Greenpeace passionately believe that anybody who doesn’t agree with them hates the earth, hates the planet, and is ultimately responsible for the probable extinction of the Maui dolphin, sharks, giant snails and goodness knows what else. While the non-Greenpeace disciples consider them a bunch of sandal wearing hippies who will take us back to the dark ages and want us to walk everywhere.

    Those people who believe that politics and blogs should be more polite and genteel and respectful are convinced that allowing the bad behaviour to continue will cause a steady decline in moral standards, intelligence, and result in MPs wasting 95% of their time trying to shout louder and use more swear words than their opponent just to get their point across; while those who believe in robust political debate believe the nice guys will ALWAYS finish last, and because of that there is simply no room for nice guys in Parliament.

    Proponents of the Treaty settlements are desperately guilty over the injustices done to Maori and solemnly believe that we MUST repay every cent that was robbed – with interest – and return the land that was stolen, preferably all of it. The lot. And they cannot understand how some people just cannot see the INJUSTICE of it all. While the opponents believe that Treaty settlements are going to bankrupt the nation and force people off their land, and put a stop to free access to beaches and forests, and recreational fishing will be doomed. And they just cannot understand how people cannot see the GRAVY TRAIN for what it really is.

    Lots of people try to convert others to their passionately held beliefs, whether those beliefs involve the climate, politics, blog etiquette, the environment, Treaty settlements, immigration – or yes, even religion.

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  123. kowtow (8,114 comments) says:

    Gaza,the left and “proportionality”.

    If proportions are so important to the left,why aren’t they bitching about Syria and Iraq and today there’s news fighting has broken out in Lebanon.

    Syria ,3 million refugees .160 000 dead.

    Northern Iraq falls to isis,hundreds murdered.Tens of thousands of refugees ,including genocide of the Christians.

    Nothing to see here,move along please.

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  124. Griff (7,212 comments) says:

    Lance
    dont be so defensive
    The soft costs in solar probably remain high still. From checking pricing on trade me there are a lot of rip off merchants operating in the solar industry.
    I am reasonably fluent in at least stand alone solar technology
    For me the costs are directly proportional to the rapidly lowering cost of the technology not the fixed costs of installation.
    The change to dvds from video or to led from crt tvs was surprisingly quick once critical mass was reached.
    The same will happen with smart grid and appliance technology. Its exotic technology the realm of committed enthusiastic techno geeks now. That will change once it becomes readily available.
    Trying to explain to my father why old books are just waste paper is a case in point.
    No one I know bothers to read hard books this change has happened rapidly in the last five years.

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  125. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    If proportions are so important to the left,why aren’t they bitching about Syria and Iraq and today there’s news fighting has broken out in Lebanon.

    Maybe because they think there is more of a chance of the democratic process influencing US support of the Zionists?

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  126. kowtow (8,114 comments) says:

    This should be a joke item,but it’s not April Fools ,it’s sociology.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2716106/Gardeners-Question-Time-caught-race-row.html

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  127. Other_Andy (2,558 comments) says:

    mikenmild says:

    “Israel’s grossly disproportionate response kills children, lots of children.”

    No, HAMAS kills children!
    They use them as human shields when they fire from and near houses and schools.
    They order them on roofs of houses that are being targeted.
    They are using concrete for command bunkers and attack tunnels instead of shelters.
    Hamas is responsible for their deaths.

    You still don’t get it do you mikenmild.
    This war would stop as soon as they stop firing rockets at Israel, deliberately trying to kill civilians, and renounce their charter that calls for the destruction of Israel.
    Very simple mikenmild.
    Hamas is directly responsible for this war and every death!
    Stop making excuses for them.

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  128. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    This war would stop as soon as they stop firing rockets at Israel, deliberately trying to kill civilians, and renounce their charter that calls for the destruction of Israel.

    Useless the forces that created Hamas are gone then stopping Hamas simply results in a new organization taking its place.

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  129. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    “We haven’t got enough space on the blog to list all of the violent crimes committed in the name of religion.”

    I could give you a rough figure for those committed in the name of atheism. IT would be several million.

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  130. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I’m not making excuses for Hamas; they are a terrorist organisation that is ruthlessly going about any means of prolonging their war. But their aggression does not give Israel a free pass to murder civilians. Use of human shields is a war crime; so too is shooting at the human shields.
    Many people seem capable only of looking at the conflict in Palestine from a single perspective.

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  131. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    “Useless the forces that created Hamas ”

    As I proved yesterday, you have no evidence for this lie. And anything from Makows site is not valid evidence of anything except Makow’s insanity.

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  132. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Shawn
    Perhaps I should have used a more neutral term: ideology. Atheism simply refers to a lack of belief in the supernatural – no one could claim that atheism is a murderous ideology.

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  133. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    Son of Hamas founder: Hamas tortures and kills Palestinian children, goal to target civilians.

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  134. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    “Perhaps I should have used a more neutral term: ideology. Atheism simply refers to a lack of belief in the supernatural – no one could claim that atheism is a murderous ideology.”

    Of course they could. You can try to define atheism in this conveniently narrow way if you like, but it;s not that simple. And by their fruits you shall know them so to speak. IN practice officially atheist regimes were murderous.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that on it’s own atheism will be murderous, other factors come into play obviously.

    “Perhaps I should have used a more neutral term: ideology. ”

    In which case we would be in 100% agreement.

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  135. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    While Greens preach poverty their policy launch today looks like another hand out to the better off.

    ‏@metiria

    @RusselNorman announcing the Student Green card at AuckUni, free off-peak public transport 4 all tertiary students

    They really seem to be trying to bribe middle New Zealand voters.

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  136. stephieboy (2,625 comments) says:

    Tookinator (215 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 1:03 pm

    How utterly churlish and boorish of Ed Millibrand failing to acknowledge such an important historical event. A kind of out of control political correctness .

    Am sure he’d have no problems in commemorating Assad’s own civil war dead.

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  137. RightNow (6,961 comments) says:

    “Atheism simply refers to a lack of belief in the supernatural – no one could claim that atheism is a murderous ideology.”

    Perhaps. Let’s just allow that Stalin wasn’t murdering tens of millions in the name of atheism. It must have been some other ideology, what was it, oh shit, um, oh yes… socialism.

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  138. Other_Andy (2,558 comments) says:

    mikenmild says:

    “Many people seem capable only of looking at the conflict in Palestine from a single perspective.”

    That is because there is only one perspective.
    Your assumption that Israel is somehow culpable is ridiculous.

    I will keep repeating this until it gets through to you:
    This war would stop as soon as they stop firing rockets at Israel, deliberately trying to kill civilians, and renounce their charter that calls for the destruction of Israel.

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  139. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    “You can try to define atheism in this conveniently narrow way if you like, but it;s not that simple.”

    To most atheists it’s quite simple and no big deal.

    Atheism: Belief in no God, or no belief in God. (There is a difference)

    “Atheism” has many meanings, all of which are related to an absence of belief in the existence of a god, a goddess, gods, goddesses, or pantheons which are typically combinations of supernatural entities. (The word “pantheon” is related to the building with that name commissioned by Marcus Agrippa circa 30 BCE as a temple honoring all the deities of ancient Rome.)

    The term “Atheism” is ambiguous by itself; it really requires a modifier — as in “strong Atheist,” “weak Atheist,” “apathetic Atheist.” etc. in order to accurately refer to a specific belief system.

    Among the general population, the most common meaning of the word “Atheist” describes what many would call “a strong Atheist:” a person who definitely asserts that all the thousands or tens of thousands of god(s), goddess(es), ghosts, demons, Satans, angels, etc. recognized by humans in the present and past do not exist in reality but were all created by humans.

    The most common meaning among Atheists themselves refers to a weak, negative, soft, or skeptical Atheist: one who simply lacks a belief in and knowledge of any supernatural entities whatsoever.

    A common belief among conservative Christians is that a person chooses to be an Atheist for only one reason: if they were to believe in a God they would need to follow that God’s moral code as he/she has revealed to humanity. That may be a true assessment for some Atheists, but I have never met any who would fit that description.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist.htm

    Those last two paragraphs could describe fairly accurately some of the views of atheists and perceptions of non-atheists on Kiwiblog.

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  140. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    RightNow has it right. :)

    On it’s own, in it’s most narrow definition, atheism is not inherently murderous. But bring other factors in, and it can be, just as any ideology can be.

    And the track record of atheism+socialism is not pretty.

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  141. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Is atheism even a broad enough concept to count as an ideology?

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  142. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    Shawn

    Of course atheism is not murderous. Atheists do not scream “God does not exist” as they blow themselves up.

    However, if you want to see pure evil then just look at the number of people killed in the name of religion. As soon as you bring religion into the argument people start to die.

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  143. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    “Useless the forces that created Hamas ”

    As I proved yesterday, you have no evidence for this lie.

    You try to evade your own contradiction about an argument that you said that you won “hands down”, and now this?

    And anything from Makows site is not valid evidence of anything except Makow’s insanity.

    You mean this?

    http://henrymakow.com/israelcreatedhamastoavoid.html

    New York Times Reporter David Shipler cites the Israeli military governor of Gaza as boasting that Israel expressly financed the fundamentalists against the PLO:

    “Politically speaking, Islamic fundamentalists were sometimes regarded as useful to Israel, because they had conflicts with the secular supporters of the PLO. Violence between the two groups erupted occasionally on West Bank university campuses. Israeli military governor of the Gaza Strip, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, once told me how he had financed the Islamic movement as a counterweight to the PLO and the Communists. ‘The Israeli Government gave me a budget and the military government gives to the mosques,’ he said.”

    Also, here’s another quotes from Makow’s site which helps illustrate the point:

    According to Robert Dreyfuss, author of “Devil’s Game: How the United States Helped Unleash Fundamentalist Islam”:

    “And beginning in 1967 through the late 1980s, Israel helped the Muslim Brotherhood establish itself in the occupied territories. It assisted Ahmed Yassin, the leader of the Brotherhood, in creating Hamas, betting that its Islamist character would weaken the PLO.”

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  144. RightNow (6,961 comments) says:

    “Atheists do not scream “God does not exist” as they blow themselves up.”

    Ha, except atheists would be the last people to be suicide bombers… there’s no virgins waiting in heaven for them.

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  145. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    I think probably to the vast majority of atheists it isn’t an ideology, it’s the absence of ideology.

    I just think that worshipping deities is something some others choose to do but I have no interest or inclination in doing likewise. It’s as simple as that.

    Some people with religious beliefs seem to find this absence of belief concept hard to understand. It could be like them simply not believing in or caring about Greek gods or Roman gods or Egyptian gods. No ideology required, you simply don’t believe in them.

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  146. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    It is hard to see atheism as a motivating force towards hatred and violence. It is simply the absence of a belief in the supernatural. Atheists could hold all sorts of other ideologies: there are no tenets to atheism.

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  147. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    Mike:

    “it is hard to see atheism as a motivating force towards hatred and violence.”

    Not really. If you have no belief in a higher power and meaning, then you believe life is meaningless, and that makes it easier to devalue human life.

    And atheists proved this in the Soviet Union, North Korea, Maoist China and so forth.

    Pete:

    “I think probably to the vast majority of atheists it isn’t an ideology, it’s the absence of ideology.”

    I think that is extremely naive and untrue. If that was the case there would be no Richard Dawkins and his army of militant atheists. You have your head in the sand Pete.

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  148. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    Ugly, nothing on Makow’s web site is evidence of anything. It’s totally unverifiable, and thus it is disqualified as evidence.

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  149. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    “there are no tenets to atheism.”

    An assumption that there is no supernatural is a tenet AND an ideology.

    The only people on the planet with no ideology are in graves.

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  150. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I didn’t say some people have no ideology: just that atheism on its own is probably not an ideology. Lack of belief in the supernatural is not a tenet; it is the outcome of the rational attitude that only accepts as real those things that are based on evidence. Apart from their rejection of religion, atheists could subscribe to almost any school of philosophy – nothing compels an atheist to behave in any particular way just because he or she is an atheist per se.

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  151. Gulag1917 (851 comments) says:

    Debunking the myths about Gaza: The truth behind Israeli and Palestinian talking points
    Why this fight now? Who started it? What happened with the kidnapped Israeli teens? Getting to the bottom of myths
    http://www.salon.com/2014/07/28/debunking_the_myths_about_gaza_the_truth_behind_israeli_and_palestinian_talking_points/

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  152. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    “I think probably to the vast majority of atheists it isn’t an ideology, it’s the absence of ideology.”

    I think that is extremely naive and untrue. If that was the case there would be no Richard Dawkins and his army of militant atheists. You have your head in the sand Pete.

    I said “vast majority”. I think that most virtual atheists don’t even think of themselves as atheists or think anything about atheism. It’s a non issue to them.

    As far as I know Richard Dawkins and his “army of militant atheists” is a very small minority – do you have any statistics on it Shawn? Claiming they represent atheists and atheism is like claiming Hamas represents theists.

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  153. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    “I didn’t say some people have no ideology: just that atheism on its own is probably not an ideology. ”

    Yes, except that it is.

    ” it is the outcome of the rational attitude that only accepts as real those things that are based on evidence.”

    It is an outcome of the ideology that only what counts as evidence from a secular and naturalist worldview should be accepted. And thus it deliberately ignores any evidence to the contrary.

    Your being blind to your own philosophical and ideological assumptions.

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  154. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    Pete.

    “I said “vast majority”. ”

    Yes you did, but unless you have some polling on that I see no reason to accept your assumption.

    “As far as I know Richard Dawkins and his “army of militant atheists” is a very small minority – do you have any statistics on it Shawn?”

    Do you?

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  155. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    Well personally I find this far more interesting and entertaining that another tiresome day of Israel/Palestine. :)

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  156. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    An ideology probably requires more than just a rejection of the supernatural: it probably require some tenets about relationships between humans and the organising principles of a society.

    I could just about accept rationalism as an ideology; but not atheism – it’s too narrow.

    As to ‘evidence to the contrary'; it’s very simple: there is none.

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  157. cricko (289 comments) says:

    OK Ugly Truth,

    I’ve read your stuff regarding Hamas/Gaza/Israel, never ending, morning to night for days on end now.

    Question.
    Do you have a suggested solution ?

    Same question could be directed at mikenmild.

    So, you have your try then I’ll give you mine.

    I’m talking about a permanant solution but you can break it down into a temporary then permanant one if
    you like.

    Care to have a go ?

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  158. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    “An ideology probably requires more than just a rejection of the supernatural: it probably require some tenets about relationships between humans and the organising principles of a society.”

    Close. I think that needs to be widened to include the underlying assumptions about the nature of the universe.

    “As to ‘evidence to the contrary’; it’s very simple: there is none.”

    There MAY be none according to your ideological assumption as to what counts as evidence.

    But that IS an ideological assumption, not a fact.

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  159. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    What would you count as ‘evidence’?

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  160. Griff (7,212 comments) says:

    There is no evidence for the existence of god Shawn .
    There is faith.
    You can spurt bible passages and the wittering of believers all you want.
    all you have is faith.
    How many gods has man at one time or other believed in ?
    Only one can be correct
    The odds are overwhelming.
    There is none.

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  161. Gulag1917 (851 comments) says:

    Atheists only believe what they see and if they were for example born blind their understanding would be diminished which indicates the arbritariness of the view.

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  162. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Atheists hold no beliefs. Atheism is absence of a belief.

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  163. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    “What would you count as ‘evidence’?”

    Well first off, can we agree that what anyone counts as evidence is going to be, at the least, an assumption based on personal worldview (ideology)?

    As to what I count as evidence, the experience of billions of human beings with the supernatural. Now, I am not here talking about religion in it’s abstract, theological and doctrinal sense. I am talking about something deeper and more prevalent than that, what anthropologists call folk religion.

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  164. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    “Atheists hold no beliefs. Atheism is absence of a belief.”

    Dig deeper Mike. An absence of belief in the supernatural will arise in part from certain philosophical assumptions which are themselves beliefs.

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  165. Other_Andy (2,558 comments) says:

    ARIIA from the movie Eagle Eye (2008) comes to life…

    Algorithm recovers speech from vibrations of potato-chip bag filmed through soundproof glass

    Researchers at MIT, Microsoft, and Adobe have developed an algorithm that can reconstruct an audio signal by analyzing minute vibrations of objects depicted in video. In one set of experiments, they were able to recover intelligible speech from the vibrations of a potato-chip bag photographed from 15 feet away through soundproof glass.

    http://phys.org/news/2014-08-algorithm-recovers-speech-vibrations-potato-chip.html#jCp

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  166. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Ugly, nothing on Makow’s web site is evidence of anything. It’s totally unverifiable, and thus it is disqualified as evidence.

    The opening sentences from the page I linked to:

    “The Israelis created Hamas. But before we explore why, let’s be clear that Israel does not want peace. They want all of Palestine, and their belligerent settlement practices confirm that.”

    The desire for territory is verified from three sources, Herzl, Fischmann, and Oded Yinon.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-israeli-dream-the-criminal-roadmap-towards-greater-israel/

    The concept of a “Greater Israel” according to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, is a Jewish State stretching “’From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.’

    Rabbi Fischmann, of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, stated to the UN Special Committee on 9th July 1947 that: “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon’”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/greater-israel-the-zionist-plan-for-the-middle-east/

    A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties

    by Oded Yinon

    This essay originally appeared in Hebrew in KIVUNIM (Directions), A Journal for Judaism and Zionism; Issue No, 14–Winter, 5742, February 1982, Editor: Yoram Beck. Editorial Committee: Eli Eyal, Yoram Beck, Amnon Hadari, Yohanan Manor, Elieser Schweid. Published by the Department of Publicity/The World Zionist Organization, Jerusalem.

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  167. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    Sssssh. Be quiet Ugly, adults are speaking.

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  168. RRM (9,762 comments) says:

    Beautiful 19 year old Chinese girls are online now, wanting to date fat, sad, desperate middle-aged white losers JUST LIKE YOU!
    Just enter your credit card number and find true love today!

    :neutral: Righto…

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  169. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Atheists hold no beliefs. Atheism is absence of a belief.

    No, that is better described by agnosticism. Atheism can include the belie that deity does not exist.

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  170. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    RRM,

    Unless you’re in the market, might I suggest Adblock and Ghostery for your browser. I never see these ads, thankfully.

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  171. jcuk (663 comments) says:

    flipper (3,615 comments) says:

    August 5th, 2014 at 11:34 am

    If Israel was a civilised country with a civilised IDF they would take more care and use their undoubted skills to wage a war on Hamas without causing civilian casualties … the foolishness of the situation is that for every ‘success’ they cause more problems for themselves. All groups have hardline targets to appeal to their supporters but usually these are moderated with pragmatic politics and the “kill all Jews” is one of these which I take with a pinch of salt. If Hamas gained the freedom of movement in and out of Gaza for the citizens of the area [ under normal travel practices that for instance NZders enjoy] I am sure pragmatically they would accept that Israel cannot be killed off and get on with improving the lives of those in Gaza.

    Unless, heaven forbid it ever happening, Israel killed the entire population of Gaza any death caused by them just breeds more resistance. One can go back in centuries but in less than my lifetime it was the Jewish ‘freedom fighters’ and the introduction of western property rules which started the whole messy businesss.

    I never hear the terms these days but in my younger days British foreign policy listed governments as ‘de facto’ and ‘de jura’ which is why the current western policy of rarely talking to terrorists is so stupid, petty, and non-productive in solving problems.

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  172. Harriet (4,741 comments) says:

    “………….We didn’t respond to Pearl Harbor with an unconditional cease-fire. We didn’t address 9/11 with a cease-fire.

    As miserably defeatist as this administration has been, it still hasn’t declared a cease-fire with Al Qaeda no matter how many civilians, including children, die in the process.
    A cease-fire is even more pointless than a peace process. At least a peace process has a goal. A cease-fire is a temporary interruption in hostilities. It doesn’t accomplish anything except to prolong and delay the inevitable. It’s not an end to war. It’s a war that drags on interminably without any final conclusion. Instead the rockets keep falling year after year in the war that never ends.
    A million cease-fires solve nothing. Especially when Hamas continues to violate its own cease-fires, accepting them and then rejecting them and then attacking anyway. We don’t have a cease-fire with Al Qaeda. Instead Obama keeps promising to defeat Al Qaeda. ……………Doesn’t Israel deserve to win its own war on terror?

    And a concluding word on the gross irresponsibility of the mainstream media on this issue.

    As one journalist correctly states:

    Basically, the Western media has taught Hamas that it doesn’t matter how downright evil you are. It doesn’t matter if you launch two thousand missiles at civilian targets, including the airport. It doesn’t matter if you use your own children as human shields. You’ll get the coverage you want if CNN, BBC et al. have props to point their cameras at. Our form of news-gathering has taught Hamas to turn their children into those props with brand new teddy bears, and to sacrifice them on the altar of Jihad. By misreporting, our media has encouraged the bad guys to kill their own children, and has dragged Israel into a war it did not want………….”

    http://billmuehlenberg.com/2014/08/04/hamas-gaza-and-truth-telling/

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  173. ShawnLH (4,481 comments) says:

    Well that was interesting, but I need to get some work done. Later all.

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  174. jcuk (663 comments) says:

    RightNow (6,688 comments) says:

    August 5th, 2014 at 12:26 pm
    .
    Wiping the Jews from the face of the earth is not the end goal of Islam, it’s just a start. The real goal is to subject the entire world to Islamic law.

    I seem to remember that the various Christian groupings were trying to do that in the past couple of centuries if not longer :)

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  175. Other_Andy (2,558 comments) says:

    The European Union:

    Israel has the right to protect its population from this kind of attacks. In doing so, it must act proportionately…

    Right…….
    Let’s get down to tin tacks.
    Exactly how many Jews do these people want to die for every 100 Palestinians?
    One for two, or an eye for an eye?

    And how should Israel manage this, given its technological superiority – a vital edge granted to an open society?
    By handing over volunteers to Hamas for execution?
    By letting a few more Hamas rockets actually land in Tel Aviv?

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/how_many_jews_must_die_before_israel_may_defend_itself/

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  176. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    ShawnLH

    I have come to enjoy your company on this blog. However, when you make such arrogant statements as the following…. “If you have no belief in a higher power and meaning, then you believe life is meaningless” then you really do test my patience.

    I can handle that you are a deluded god nutter, I can handle that you think it is perfectly acceptable to poison the minds of your kids, and, I can handle that you are so often guilty of telling blatant lies about your god and your religion.

    What you don’t have the right to do Shaun is impose your fucked up beliefs upon others, by insisting that those of us who live a life free of religious tyranny are doing so “meaninglessly” is a bridge too far in my book.

    Unfortunately Shawn you have no idea what it is to be free, nor what it is to be an atheist, so please don’t tell me what I believe.

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  177. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    ShawnLH

    “I am talking about something deeper and more prevalent than that, what anthropologists call folk religion.”

    No Shawn, what you are talking about is faith. When you boil it all down, push aside the blatant lies that underpin religion then all you guys have is faith.

    Me, well I want more proof than that. I want something a bit more concrete before I will hand my life over to a tyrannical, egotistical, narcissistic, and capricious “God”.

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  178. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Do you have a suggested solution ?

    In a nutshell, the solution is an understanding of the role of deity within the conflict. By this I don’t mean belief in an arbitrary doctrine, but rather knowledge of that role arising from the original religious descriptions, and knowledge arising from the corresponding observations of the behaviour of the belligerents.

    By original religious descriptions, I mean the descriptions that can be found in the Hebrew Tanak, the Christian Bible, and the Islamic Quran.
    By observations of behaviour, I mean an objective and rational view of the the psychology of the people who are actively promoting violence as means to findings a solution to the situation in Gaza.

    Here are some verses to give you an idea of where I am going with this:

    They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
    Isaiah 44:18

    Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
    Psalm 69:23

    He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
    John 12:40

    So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to reason and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the breasts.
    Quran 22:46

    In Hebrew idiom the heart is both the source of thoughts and the source of emotions.

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  179. Kiwi Dave (84 comments) says:

    Shawn @ 2.46
    “If you have no belief in a higher power and meaning, then you believe life is meaningless, and that makes it easier to devalue human life.”

    This seems a complete and bizarre non-sequitur to me and, given the evidence from ISIS in Iraq/Syria, the implied converse is not true either.

    Life is meaningless in the same sense that the water cycle and pho-synthesis are meaningless, i.e, they are natural processes without purpose, but that does not imply we are unable to highly value the lives we and others have, or unable to give purpose to our own lives, especially when we believe there is no second round, only extinction.

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  180. RightNow (6,961 comments) says:

    jcuk “I seem to remember that the various Christian groupings were trying to do that in the past couple of centuries if not longer ”

    Really? Are you an immortal?

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  181. Gulag1917 (851 comments) says:

    The confused view of Christianity by agnostics.

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  182. jcuk (663 comments) says:

    Omar Baddar in the USA writes this in a summary of the Gaza conflict linked by Gulag … Thankyou G :)

    By now, you’ve probably heard news outlets accuse both Israel and Hamas, on alternating occasions, of rejecting cease-fire proposals. The accusations against both are true, and this merely has to do with the terms of each proposal: Israel wants a cease-fire that effectively ends the fighting while allowing Israel to keep its boot on Gaza’s neck. Hamas, on the other hand, insists on some humanitarian conditions, including ending the siege and economic suffocation of Gaza, the introduction of international peacekeeping forces at Gaza’s borders, and the freeing of prisoners rounded up in recent weeks, many held without charge or trial.
    The whole article directly linked

    http://www.salon.com/2014/07/28/debunking_the_myths_about_gaza_the_truth_behind_israeli_and_palestinian_talking_points/

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  183. cricko (289 comments) says:

    Jeez UglyTruth

    I gave you a thumbs up for effort for your reply but must confess I didn’t really understand what you were on about.
    “The solution is an understanding of the role of deity within the conflict.”

    Given that I guess that solution, such as it is, has been available to the parties for 2000 odd years or so, or
    at least a few hundred as regards the koran and hasn’t been picked up by the parties yet.
    Is it not a principle of one of the parties that all other parties must submit to the will of that party or be killed ?

    Any thoughts on something a bit more practical ?

    Thanks for taking the trouble to reply though.
    I’ll give the verses you quote some more thought.

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  184. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    I gave you a thumbs up for effort for your reply but must confess I didn’t really understand what you were on about.

    Understanding something involves knowledge rather than belief. Knowledge of deity can arise from direct experience or from logical reasoning based on the available evidence. The primary sources of evidence are religious texts written by people who had direct experience. The trick, I think, is having the ability to find the relevant information from all the different books, whether by direct study, reading the commentaries of other readers, by argument with those who have working knowledge of the material, or by other means.

    The complication that I hinted at is that some people simply can’t understand it, and if you try to argue with them you up with debates like the ones that ShawnLH & I engage in from time to time.

    Is it not a principle of one of the parties that all other parties must submit to the will of that party or be killed ?

    No. For Islam there are three conditions for non-believers to avoid hostility: withdraw from the believers, refrain from attacking the believers, and offer them peace.

    Any thoughts on something a bit more practical ?

    Don’t support anyone who is involved supplying any kind of military assistance to those involved in the current conflict. Be aware that the NZ state has long standing defence ties with the US, who of course have a history fueling conflict in the middle east.

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  185. cricko (289 comments) says:

    OK Ugly
    I’ll bite again.

    In your opinion, does Israel have a right to exist ? (so that we may get into it. could you begin your answer with either yes or no.
    Thanks.

    And, am I correct to understand that the koran is unique among religious texts in that it is the actual word of God as
    dictated by God word by word to mohammed ?

    Also.
    Very cool lines down the side of your effort by the way. How do you do that ?

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  186. cricko (289 comments) says:

    Ugly

    Found the answer to my 2nd ? myself. (Islam 101 Gregory Davis)

    God told Angel Gabriel who told others who told muhammed.

    Still interested in your answer and reasons to ? 1 but.

    (and how you do those cool lines)

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  187. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Davis tries to fight against the corrupt German: http://www.3news.co.nz/Kelvin-Davis-continues-anti-Internet-Mana-campaign/tabid/1607/articleID/355435/Default.aspx

    He will soon be muzzled by Silent T and cohorts.

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  188. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    In your opinion, does Israel have a right to exist ? (so that we may get into it. could you begin your answer with either yes or no.
    Thanks.

    The question is best answered as a matter of fact rather than a matter of opinion. Crimes don’t have a right to exist, and likewise a criminal state has no right to exist. Israel, as a people, do have a natural right to exist.

    And, am I correct to understand that the koran is unique among religious texts in that it is the actual word of God as
    dictated by God word by word to mohammed ?

    No, the Quran endorses the gospels, the Hebrew Torah, and other texts, and the gospels also endorse the Torah.

    Also.
    Very cool lines down the side of your effort by the way. How do you do that ?

    Blockquotes. I was in a hurry & didn’t put a backslash in the closing ones.

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  189. Scott Chris (6,013 comments) says:

    No, HAMAS kills children!

    Nah, you’re fucked in the head Other Andy.

    Hammas is willing to sacrifice its children which is culturally primitive.

    Israel chooses to consume that sacrifice.

    Brings to mind an old myth:

    God told Abraham, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.”

    Abraham took Isaac, two servants and a donkey and set off on the 50 mile journey. When they arrived, Abraham ordered the servants to wait with the donkey while he and Isaac went up the mountain. He told the men, “We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

    Isaac asked his father where the lamb was for the sacrifice, and Abraham answered that the Lord would provide the lamb. Saddened and confused, Abraham bound Isaac with ropes and placed him on the stone altar.

    Just as Abraham raised the knife to slay his son, the angel of the Lord called out to Abraham to stop and not harm the boy.

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  190. cricko (289 comments) says:

    OK Ugly

    here we go, now we’re down to it.
    how do you respond to this ?

    Verse of the Swords
    (9.5 of the koran) which abrogates previous more peacefull verses as it is written later and carries
    more weight, as explained in 2:106 sura 8

    “Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, but if they repent and perform As-Salat (submit) then leave their way free.
    Verily Allah is oft forgiving-most mercifull,”

    Now that directly contradicts your assertion @ 5.21

    (you, Ugly, may well put your faith in previous more peacefull verses than this but they are overuled by the Verse of Swords)

    Who said, “Know thy enemy.” ?
    was it Sun Tsu ? I can’t recall off hand but if you yourself are not a muslim then they ARE your enemy. (At least you are theirs.) Get it ?

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  191. stigie (1,053 comments) says:

    Ole Reddy said this on an earlier thread…

    “The left want us all to be “equal” in misery.”

    So bloody true…just had to give him an uptick !~

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  192. cricko (289 comments) says:

    Hey Scott Chris,

    “God said to Abraham, kill me a son,
    Abe say, man, you must be putting me on.
    God said no.
    Abe say, what ?
    God said, you can do what you want Abe but
    next time you see me comming you better run
    Abe say, where do you want this killin done?
    God said,
    Out on Highway 61″

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  193. nasska (11,078 comments) says:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/oozh8oundzegt4l/Faith%208.jpg

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  194. stigie (1,053 comments) says:

    Opened up that link Nasska thinking that you should have faith in your blowup doll !!

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  195. jgw739 (24 comments) says:

    Came home tonight and my daughter told me if she was able to vote, she would vote Labour because John Key wants to sell our land to the Chinese. Apparently, her teacher was talking to my daughter and her friend privately after class extolling the sins of JK and National. Is brainwashing legal in our schools? I thought they were there to teach fact not opinion.

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  196. Rowan (2,066 comments) says:

    “What you don’t have the right to do Shawn is to impose your fucked up beliefs on others”

    Pot kettle black Bigot Blouse, this actually works both ways you know! It’s fine for you to be an atheist that is your choice just as it is every bodies right to choose what they believe without judgement f…tards like you blouse!

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  197. goldnkiwi (1,250 comments) says:

    OMG the police will have no time to arrest criminals at this rate. I see Tim Macindoe is now under the gun.

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  198. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Verse of the Swords
    (9.5 of the koran) which abrogates previous more peacefull verses as it is written later and carries
    more weight, as explained in 2:106 sura 8

    Abrogation is based on the principle of replacing with something better, not worse.

    We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?
    Surah 2:106

    The Verse of the swords is about the mushrikin, not your ordinary disbeliever (kafir). AFAIK in Islam mushrikin are those who associate partners with Allah.

    And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists (mushrikina) wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
    Surah 9:5 (Sahih International)

    “Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, but if they repent and perform As-Salat (submit) then leave their way free.
    Verily Allah is oft forgiving-most mercifull,”

    Now that directly contradicts your assertion @ 5.21

    No, your translation isn’t accurate. Surah 2:105 illustrates this point:

    Neither those who disbelieve (kafaru) from the People of the Scripture nor the polytheists (mush’rikīna) wish that any good should be sent down to you from your Lord. But Allah selects for His mercy whom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty.
    Surah 2:105

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  199. Don the Kiwi (1,678 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth.

    “No, the Quran endorses the gospels, the Hebrew Torah, and other texts, and the gospels also endorse the Torah.”

    No, you’re very wrong Ugly.
    Mohamed gained a very imperfect understanding of the Torah, and the Christian gospels when he visited the ME, Greece, and Rome around 620 AD.
    From them, he got to hear of the Angel Gabriel and various other things in the Old Testament(Torah) and the Christian writngs.

    If you really read the Quran, you can se than it is really just a plagiarism of the other writings, especially in the early parts.
    But it later goes on to contradict the earlier surahs – it is just the imaginings of a rather demented Arab warlord, who was illiterate and had his first wife write the Quran down.

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  200. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Hammas is willing to sacrifice its children which is culturally primitive.

    Israel chooses to consume that sacrifice.

    The relationship between sacrifice and evil is hinted at in the first chapter of Job and also in Genesis 15.

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  201. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    No, you’re very wrong Ugly.
    Mohamed gained a very imperfect understanding of the Torah, and the Christian gospels when he visited the ME, Greece, and Rome around 620 AD.

    In what way do you think that his understanding was imperfect?

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  202. EAD (921 comments) says:

    Ron Paul asks why is “winning” Ukraine so important to Washington? Why are they risking a major war with Russia to deny people in Ukraine the right to self-determination? Let’s just leave Ukraine alone!

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-04/ron-paul-implores-why-wont-obama-just-leave-ukraine-alone

    Ron Paul might not be perfect, but at least he’s logical , consistent and has principles. Only problem is how could he possibly go far in politics with that on his resume?

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  203. Scott Chris (6,013 comments) says:

    Is brainwashing legal in our schools?

    Hmm good question. Some brains out there could do with a good rinsing.

    Picture a child coming home and telling her Mongrel Mob affiliated Mum that her teacher told her that gangs are bad.

    Let the kid work it out maybe.

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  204. nasska (11,078 comments) says:

    John O’Riley was a member of an Irish Toast Masters Club and one evening at the local Irish Toast Masters meeting, a contest was held to see who could deliver the best toast.

    Well, John O’Riley won the contest for the best toast of the evening “Here’s to the best years o’ me life, spent between the legs o’ me wife”.

    When John O’Riley arrived home his beautiful wife asked him how the Toast Masters meeting went and he said “I won the contest for the best toast of the evening”.

    His wife then asked him what his toast was, and he said “Here’s to the best years o’ me life, spent in church wi’ me wife”. His wife then said “Why John, that’s so nice of you to include me in your toast”.

    The next morning, Mrs. O’Riley was downtown shopping and ran into the local policeman on the beat who was also at the Toast Masters meeting with John O’Riley.

    He said “Hello Mrs. O’Riley, that was some great toast that your husband John gave at the Toast Masters meeting last evening. He won first prize”.

    “Yes, that’s right” said Mrs. O’Riley “but he wasn’t quite honest with the facts: he’s only been there twice, the first time he fell asleep and the second time I had to pull him out by the ears”.

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  205. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Chuckleworthy

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  206. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    Oh Rowan, don’t be such a cock.

    All any atheist asks is that you keep your toys to yourself. All we want is for you to play with your toy on your own, do whatever you want with that toy just do not insist that others must play with your toy or face a life (or death as it happens) of eternal fire.

    See Rowan, that is the difference between people like you and me. I don’t care what you believe in (as ludicrous as it is). I don’t care how you practice your stupid belief. I don’t care how many people you want to gather with on any given day of the week to celebrate your belief.
    What separates you and me Rowan is that I will never demand you give up your belief as I simply don’t care. You however Rowan are compelled by the book of instructions that comes with your toy to force the rest of us to all play by the same rules. As long as you keep insisting that you have the right to invade my life, or tell lies to innocent children and poison their minds then I will continue to fight for my freedom and the freedom of innocent children.

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  207. cricko (289 comments) says:

    Paddy goes into the bank, points a banana at the teller and says,
    This is a cockup.

    Teller says, Dont you mean its a stickup ?

    Paddy says, No, its a cockup.
    I left my gun at home.

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  208. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Lame

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  209. goldnkiwi (1,250 comments) says:

    That could read ‘I left my stick at home’. ;) lol

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  210. Reid (16,179 comments) says:

    All any atheist asks is that you keep your toys to yourself. All we want is for you to play with your toy on your own, do whatever you want with that toy just do not insist that others must play with your toy or face a life (or death as it happens) of eternal fire.

    That’s what we do BB. When was the last time any Christian commenter here ever said or even implied anything like that?

    All we ever do is correct people’s misperceptions when we see them.

    But many to most atheists hallucinate that merely doing that is doing what you imply above.

    Which is YOUR HALLUCINATION and nothing more.

    Possibly brought about by your own subconscious guilt over your Godless behaviour.

    But you’ve made your own bed, so lie in it. In other words, it’s your guilt and no-one elses. So if others bring up a subject you feel guilty over, that’s not the fault of the person whose bringing it up.

    And if others wish to discuss religion, stop hallucinating the mere discussion of it is an affront on your own sensibilities because doing so, again, is YOUR HALLUCINATION.

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  211. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I don’t object to others discussing religion. It is a fascinating pathology.

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  212. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    Reid

    Have another look at what you have written and then tell me again how you don’t try and force your fucked up religion on me and others. You are so indoctrinated by your religion, so used to forcing your beliefs upon others that you don’t even know when you are doing it.

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  213. cricko (289 comments) says:

    Ugly @ 7.52

    Wrong again.

    You say, ‘ abrogation is based on the principle of replacing with something better, not worse.’

    So wrong.
    So very, very wrong Ugly.
    You need to pay attention.

    It is actually based on replacing something earlier with something later.

    That is enshrined in the koran itself, sura 8 text 2.106
    You spelled it out yourself but you were just not able to understand it.
    Read your own effort again @ 7.52 (then if you still can’t get it, read it again.)
    Comprehension skills a bit rusty ?

    Not been a good day for you muslim lovers has it babe ?

    Hope that you get it now.

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  214. nasska (11,078 comments) says:

    ….”All we ever do is correct people’s misperceptions when we see them.”…..

    If only that were true & you limited the irritation to banging on about them. Alas, for some occult reason you must try to influence the state to force the foibles of your Skyfairy onto our lives via law.

    There’s probably nothing terribly dangerous about your delusions but be a good chap……keep them private & between consenting adults. :)

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  215. Rowan (2,066 comments) says:

    Bigot Blouse
    I don’t care what you believe in either blouse nor do I try to bible bash religion onto you or anyone else for that matter, that is up to the individual to choose their beliefs for themselves. Where have I ‘demanded’ that you give up your belief?
    However I hate the way intolerant f…wits like you who judge others simply because they don’t agree with you.

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  216. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I always thought Saint David was your religion, Rowan.

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  217. Nookin (3,253 comments) says:

    “However I hate the way intolerant f…wits like you who judge others simply because they don’t agree with you”

    I think this theme is going around in ever tightening circles and will soon disappear up someone’s orifice

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  218. nasska (11,078 comments) says:

    A Muslim wife is complaining to her husband.

    “The romance has completely gone from our relationship” she moaned. “Once upon a time you were all over me and couldn’t wait to carry me up stairs. What’s happened?”

    “Simple” the husband replied. “You’re not 11 any more.”

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  219. Pete George (23,420 comments) says:

    Possibly brought about by your own subconscious guilt over your Godless behaviour.

    I think that might be the sort of thing bb was alluding to, being told you feel guilty without knowing it by some smugly superior being because perhaps that’s how they imagine they would feel.

    Some people who haven’t been life long atheists obviously have no idea what it is like not living with a perpetual threat of damnation if you don’t tow the line of your chosen spiritual master.

    It is easy to have self governed morals if you haven’t handed responsibility over to another authority.

    You are so indoctrinated by your religion, so used to forcing your beliefs upon others that you don’t even know when you are doing it.

    That's funny, something similar from the other side. Perhaps none of us know what we really think and need some stranger to tell us what we really feel.

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  220. cricko (289 comments) says:

    mikenmild says ‘Lame’

    Why don’t you try and post a joke thats not ‘ lame’ you pathetic humourless article.

    Have you ever posted a joke ? Doubt it, but you can correct me if I’m wrong.

    All you are good for is criticising others, you saddo. Lighten up.

    What a poor, sad life you must lead mikenmild.

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  221. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    toe the line, Pete. It comes from boxing, I believe.

    cricko
    Why would I post a joke when I have all of your unintentionally funny comments to laugh at?

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  222. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Ugly @ 7.52

    Wrong again.

    When was I wrong before?

    You say, ‘ abrogation is based on the principle of replacing with something better, not worse.’

    Yes.

    So wrong.
    So very, very wrong Ugly.
    You need to pay attention.

    Really?

    It is actually based on replacing something earlier with something later.

    In general it is, but not in Islam if it would result in the situation becoming worse.

    That is enshrined in the koran itself, sura 8 text 2.106
    You spelled it out yourself but you were just not able to understand it.

    What part do you think I misunderstood?

    We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?
    Surah 2:106

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  223. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    Rowan

    “I don’t care what you believe in either blouse”

    How I wish that were true. Unless you practise some weird form of sky fairy following that I am yet to come across you are compelled by the book of instructions to spread the word.

    Unless of course you are already having doubts, unless of course you cherry pick the bits from your book and leave out the really crazy bits, the bits that you know deep down are laughable (did you hear the one about the virgin birth?, that is a right cracker)

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  224. ciaron (1,414 comments) says:

    Some people who haven’t been life long atheists obviously have no idea what it is like not living with a perpetual threat of damnation if you don’t tow the line of your chosen spiritual master.

    Actually Pete, anyone who takes Christ to be their Lord no longer lives with the “perpetual threat of damnation” but I think you already knew that.

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  225. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    No longer lives with an imaginary threat might be more accurate.

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  226. nasska (11,078 comments) says:

    ….”anyone who takes Christ to be their Lord no longer lives with the “perpetual threat of damnation”…..

    Their priests usually whip them back into line should they stray from the flock ciaron.

    A few whiffs of sulphur & the promise of & eternity filled with red hot pokers shoved up your quoit & you’re back to being good little Jerk for Jehovah. :)

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  227. ciaron (1,414 comments) says:

    Yeah, nah. not sure that’s biblical either nasska.

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  228. cricko (289 comments) says:

    OK Ugly, lets have a truce.

    We can quote stuff at each other till the cows come home.
    Nobody will win that way. We see things differently.
    Good on you for batting hard for your point of view.

    mikenmild,
    I’m tempted to post another joke just to piss you off,
    you poor sad humourless person.
    Bye the way, have you ever heard a joke that you thought was funny ?
    What was it ?

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  229. Reid (16,179 comments) says:

    You are so indoctrinated by your religion, so used to forcing your beliefs upon others that you don’t even know when you are doing it.

    BB, it’s you who are indoctrinated.

    What in my comment implied you would die in hell?

    Nothing.

    I imagination you’re hallucinating that my deliberate reference to your own guilt, which you feel, that I didn’t cause, is evidence, to you, that this is what I was saying.

    Well newsflash mate, it’s your own hallucination that’s making you think that. See, if YOU didn’t have any guilt then YOU wouldn’t feel anything, which comes out as a j’accuse reaction against the person or entity which is making YOU feel guilty.

    But this is like saying the pretty girl caused the attack on her, or whatever analogy you care to use, they are myriad, all pointing to the same phenomena.

    Of course I don’t know for sure if you feel guilt or not, I took a guess and it appears to have paid off. But I’m not guilty for your guilt mate, it’s yours, wear it, live with it, like I said.

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  230. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    cricko
    Nasska’s joke was funny; your’s wasn’t. It’s a tricky thing, humour.

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  231. Griff (7,212 comments) says:

    The sky faerie squad are now in denial that they try to make us live up to their warped god addled morality.

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  232. nasska (11,078 comments) says:

    ….” But I’m not guilty for your guilt mate, it’s yours, wear it, live with it, like I said.”…..

    That’s a bit tough Reid…..you wish evil magic on our fellow traveller Big Bruv & then leave him stuck with it.

    Have mercy! :)

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  233. ciaron (1,414 comments) says:

    Griff,
    How on earth could I, or anyone else make you live up to “their warped god addled morality”

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  234. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    OK Ugly, lets have a truce.

    Why? You said that I was wrong before, but couldn’t back it up.

    You said that I misunderstood abrogration in Islam, but couldn’t say how that was so.

    But I admit that my earlier statement that “abrogation is based on the principle of replacing with something better, not worse” was inaccurate. What I should have said was that “In Islam there is no abrogation if the situation would be made worse by it”.

    If you want to continue to talk about Islam, fine. If you don’t want to then that’s OK as well.

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  235. nasska (11,078 comments) says:

    ….”How on earth could I, or anyone else make you live up to “their warped god addled morality”…..

    You could get a law banning abortion, keep euthanasia illegal & rescind the law permitting gay marriage.

    That would be a good start in getting the rest of us on side with baby Jesus. :)

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  236. Rowan (2,066 comments) says:

    Bigot Blouse
    There are some things in life that we cannot change and one of these is the beliefs of others, You seem to have decided that you are going to judge anyone who does not share your beliefs, I should feel sorry for you but you have made your own decision and that’s that. This just makes you a sad bitter twisted person but that’s your problem. I suggest you get a life arsehole!

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  237. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    Rowan.

    Clearly you are not that secure in your religious beliefs. That is a good sign.

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  238. jgw739 (24 comments) says:

    Scott Chris (5,904 comments) says:
    August 5th, 2014 at 8:08 pm

    I think I see what you are trying to say Scott but I’m not sure the analogy is accurate. The Government is not a gang, unless viewed from an anarchist point of view.

    The 10 year old in question is actually quite capable of working things out, but like most people she needs all of the facts before being able to make a rational judgement. Simply saying the National is selling NZ to the Chinese is like Leonardo da Vinci just painting ol’ Mona’s chin.

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  239. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    Reid

    Clearly you are not as smart as I had credited you as being. Oh well, I guess I will have to paint you a picture.

    “Possibly brought about by your own subconscious guilt over your Godless behaviour.”

    That quote of your Reid is exactly the type of religious arrogance and indoctrination I am talking about. You know that I am a non believer, you know that I am a person more aligned with science than I am with bronze age superstition yet your own religious arrogance will not allow you to consider anybody can have a differing opinion that does not include your god.

    I am not the one tortured (as it appears you are) by any confusion as to the existence of your god. I side with science, I side with reason and I side with people who are not prepared to live in a “celestial North Korea”

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  240. ciaron (1,414 comments) says:

    @ nasska:I don’t think so, Tim

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  241. Rowan (2,066 comments) says:

    Assume whatever you like blouse, I really don’t give a shit.

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  242. Reid (16,179 comments) says:

    Yes I know you think that BB. That’s precisely why I included it in my original repost.

    The whole point is I aren’t making you think that BB, you are making yourself think that, and I’m not responsible for that.

    “Possibly brought about by your own subconscious guilt over your Godless behaviour.”

    …is not saying that I think that you have it, it’s saying it’s a possible explanation for your reaction to all religious comments as someone pointing our your own crapulence. But your crapulence isn’t my problem, I didn’t cause it, I’m not responsible for it, and if you feel it, it’s not my fault, it’s your fault.

    And evidently, you do feel it, so my guess was pretty much bang on, apparently.

    Sorry about that.

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  243. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    Rowan

    This is great, you really are starting to act and think like an atheist. Welcome aboard brother, welcome to a world of enlightenment and freedom, a world where you celebrate the one life we all have and not waste it in pointless servitude.

    Well done man.

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  244. big bruv (13,661 comments) says:

    Reid

    Man that is desperate, clearly you taking a hammering and feel that you have to resort to rubbish.

    I suspect I have rocked your confidence in your god, well that is a good thing. Not what I intended to do of course as all I want is for arrogant idiots like you to leave me alone but hey, why look a gift horse in the mouth.

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  245. Scott Chris (6,013 comments) says:

    The Government is not a gang

    Anyone care to disagree?

    The 10 year old in question is actually quite capable of working things out, but like most people she needs all of the facts

    ‘Facts’ are cross references – the more the better imo

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  246. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Free nappies and the madness of the Left:
    Assembly Bill 1516, written by Assemblywoman Lorena Gonzalez, a Democrat from San Diego, would create the taxpayer-backed program within the state’s existing welfare network, called CalWORKs (California Work Opportunity and Responsibility to Kids). Families that qualify for CalWORKS could be eligible for $80 a month to buy diapers for children under the age of 2.

    “When you have an identifiable problem preventing women from self-sufficiency and there is an identifiable barrier, shouldn’t we help that along when we can?” Gonzalez said.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/05/diaper-duty-for-california-taxpayers/

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